Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #887 Online Capping: What You Need to Know

Transcript

#887 Online Capping: What You Need to Know · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just answers. Now,
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: it seems that the ways that we can get ourselves
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  Speaker 2: in trouble on screens never ends, especially when it comes
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  Speaker 2: to our children. Children screens and something called capping is
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  Speaker 2: the conversation today before we go any further, and I
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  Speaker 2: introduced my guest just to remind it that some of the
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  Speaker 2: things that we'll be talking about today are for mature audiences.
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  Speaker 2: With all of these things with online dangers, there is
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  Speaker 2: the risk that some little is might be a little
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  Speaker 2: bit too curious too soon. However, I don't think that's
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  Speaker 2: a big deal when it comes to these conversations because
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: we need to be having them, so I'll leave it
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  Speaker 2: to your discretion. Certainly, if the kids aren't listening to
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  Speaker 2: this conversation, we do want you to have a conversation
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  Speaker 2: with your kids about this conversation, because, like I said,
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  Speaker 2: there's no end to the different ways that kids can
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  Speaker 2: find themselves in trouble online. Joining me today as always
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  Speaker 2: to talk about these topics is Detective Superintendent Jane Crossling
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  Speaker 2: from the Australian Center to Counter Child Exploitation or ace AS.
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  Speaker 2: It's better known. You can find out more about ACE
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  Speaker 2: at ACCCE. That's a triple CE dot gov dot au. Jane,
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  Speaker 2: thanks for being with me on the podcast today. What
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  Speaker 2: is capping?
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  Speaker 1: In its most simple terms, capping is where a young
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  Speaker 1: person is tricked or coerced or threatened into creating sexual acts, including.
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  Speaker 3: Video and images, and then.
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  Speaker 1: Those sorts of images are then screenshoted or capped, hence
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  Speaker 1: the name. And it could be that the young person
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  Speaker 1: doesn't know that that's actually happened, so they think that
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  Speaker 1: they're sharing material with somebody online that they have maybe
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  Speaker 1: been tricked into thinking they're actually sharing with someone they
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  Speaker 1: know or someone of a similar age. They don't realize
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  Speaker 1: that that's all being screenshotted.
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  Speaker 3: Then that material is.
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  Speaker 1: Frequently shared with other people, and so in some instances,
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  Speaker 1: the young person doesn't even know that they're actually a
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  Speaker 1: victim of a few different types of crimes.
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  Speaker 2: So I want to drill into how this works. You're
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  Speaker 2: talking about kids thinking that they're talking to somebody that
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  Speaker 2: they know, but it turns out to either not be
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  Speaker 2: that personal or they've been deceived in some way. What's
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  Speaker 2: going on here, Like, who's doing this to our children?
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  Speaker 2: And why.
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  Speaker 1: Unfortunately, there are online offenders out there that have an
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  Speaker 1: appetite for this type of material where they are doing
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  Speaker 1: it because they have a sexual interest in children, and
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  Speaker 1: in many instances they are actually connected to other offenders
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  Speaker 1: who also like sharing this material. So once they're able
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  Speaker 1: to receive this material, they're allowed to share with their
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  Speaker 1: friends and they get coudos and must they're online network
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  Speaker 1: for sharing this particular material.
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  Speaker 2: So last time we talked, we spoke about the sextortion
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  Speaker 2: or sexual exploitation of children. That is that there are
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  Speaker 2: people working in call centers literally as paid employees overseas
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  Speaker 2: who are pretending to be an attractive young female, for example,
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  Speaker 2: and approaching a teenage boy and saying, hey, here's an
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  Speaker 2: intimate picture of me, and will you send me one
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  Speaker 2: of you now, Like they'll spend a little bit of
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  Speaker 2: time developing the relationship over maybe five or ten minutes
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  Speaker 2: or maybe five or ten days. Then they get that
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  Speaker 2: image in front of the boy. The boy goes, oh
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  Speaker 2: my goodness, that was astounding, and now I'm emotionally a
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  Speaker 2: little bit hot, I guess you might say. And then
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  Speaker 2: the request comes through from this quote unquote girl saying
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  Speaker 2: now send me one. He does that, and then she says, actually,
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  Speaker 2: I'm not who you think I am. Send me some
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  Speaker 2: bitcoin otherwise I'm going to share this with your entire list.
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  Speaker 2: It sounds to me like what you're describing as capping
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  Speaker 2: is quite different. That is, this isn't done for financial gain.
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  Speaker 2: This is actually done simply for personal satisfaction. I don't
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  Speaker 2: like using that word in this context, but it sounds
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  Speaker 2: like this is a thing that there are predators who
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  Speaker 2: are literally trying to have children expose themselves online so
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  Speaker 2: that they can get access to that content and then
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  Speaker 2: share it within their dark web groups so that they
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  Speaker 2: can become more powerful in those circles.
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  Speaker 1: Correct or it's entirely for their own personal consumption as well,
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  Speaker 1: because they, as I said, they do have a sexual
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  Speaker 1: interest in children. So it can be stand alone offending,
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  Speaker 1: it can be syndicated offending as well. We're seeing a
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  Speaker 1: range of different offending play out, and it unfortunately is
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  Speaker 1: a global network at times. And this is where the
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  Speaker 1: power of this range center account a child the expectation
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  Speaker 1: when it comes in because we've.
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  Speaker 3: Got those connections with law enforcement.
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  Speaker 1: So this is giving us a really strong sense of
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  Speaker 1: how it's playing out.
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  Speaker 3: Around the globe.
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  Speaker 1: So what typically is happening is that children are being
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  Speaker 1: actively targeted in a very similar way as you describe
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  Speaker 1: to sexual extortion.
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  Speaker 2: Jane, who's most likely to be affected here? Is there
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  Speaker 2: a particular age group who is the target of these
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to use the word predators. I don't know
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  Speaker 2: that there's a better word for it.
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  Speaker 1: So they are young people generally, and the ACE certainly
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  Speaker 1: only focuses in on under ageens, but we are most
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  Speaker 1: commonly seeing teenage children being affected by this.
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  Speaker 2: Okay. Would it be reasonable to say, though, that there
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  Speaker 2: are some bad actors out there who are very active
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  Speaker 2: in children's games as well games for kids that are
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  Speaker 2: under twelve.
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  Speaker 1: That might be a way that they're initially friending the
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  Speaker 1: children through in game chat functionality, but frequently they're taking
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  Speaker 1: them out of that space so that they can actually
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  Speaker 1: have direct message capability with them.
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  Speaker 3: Frequently that's in an encrypted.
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  Speaker 1: Environment, but then they need to get into a video
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  Speaker 1: chat particular app. So that's where they're lured into whichever
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  Speaker 1: particular video chat app that the offender chooses, and is
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  Speaker 1: their preference.
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  Speaker 2: Let me ask a really concrete question. I know it's
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  Speaker 2: hard to give a simple answer to this question, but
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  Speaker 2: how long do most offenders most predators take to develop
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  Speaker 2: a relationship, make the requests, get the child, the teenager,
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  Speaker 2: the young person off the platform that they're on, into
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  Speaker 2: the encrypted chat or video service and obtain exploitative material.
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  Speaker 1: Unfortunately, it's getting shorter and shorter the amount of time
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  Speaker 1: that it takes for these offenders. In you've gone by,
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  Speaker 1: this type of offending would have taken quite some time
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  Speaker 1: to convince a young person a to friend someone that
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  Speaker 1: they don't know and be to actually then respond to
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  Speaker 1: the sharing of sexualized images. So this is a huge
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  Speaker 1: cause for concern for us. And it would appear that
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  Speaker 1: some of those red flags are being ignored by the
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  Speaker 1: young people or they're just not tuning into them. And
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  Speaker 1: this is why we certainly need to appeal to parents
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  Speaker 1: and carers because they play a critical role.
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  Speaker 2: Can we please get really clear on what those red
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  Speaker 2: flags are that are being ignored by the kids, because
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  Speaker 2: obviously parents need to talk about this with their kids. Therefore,
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  Speaker 2: they need to get the high lighter out and circle
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  Speaker 2: where the red flags are and say, hang, this is
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  Speaker 2: a line, like don't cross this line. This is not
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  Speaker 2: safe behavior, this is not healthy behavior. What are the
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  Speaker 2: red flags that parents want to be talking to their
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  Speaker 2: kids about.
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  Speaker 1: So the thing, the very key one that starts off
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  Speaker 1: is that you are friended by someone you don't know.
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  Speaker 1: So what a young person might call it random, or
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  Speaker 1: maybe we're calling them randoms, but they're random, and much
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  Speaker 1: like sexual extortion, the conversation can become sexualized, and that
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  Speaker 1: can happen quite rapidly. They may or may not share
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  Speaker 1: images of purporting to be themselves, but perhaps not, and
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  Speaker 1: then they will al most definitely push them into a
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  Speaker 1: different platform so that they can get onto the platform
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  Speaker 1: of their choice, so that they can actually create the video.
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  Speaker 2: I keep on thinking of Madonna King's advice in her
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  Speaker 2: book Saving Our Kids, the book that she wrote about
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  Speaker 2: Task Force Argos and the work that the ACE has
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  Speaker 2: been doing over the years, and this advice that she
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  Speaker 2: was just screaming through a megaphone throughout the book, and
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  Speaker 2: that is, don't let your kids have their devices in
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  Speaker 2: the bedroom or the bathroom. Just don't let them do that,
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  Speaker 2: because if they're in a public area, they're not going
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  Speaker 2: to take their gear off and send it to some
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  Speaker 2: random on the internet. Whereas bathrooms and bedrooms this is
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  Speaker 2: where the exploitation happens. You're nodding your head as I'm
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  Speaker 2: looking at you on zoom. Can you just extrapolate on
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  Speaker 2: that briefly.
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  Speaker 1: Absolutely, And this goes for children of all ages as well.
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  Speaker 1: We particularly recommend supervision for younger children because unfortunately, we
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  Speaker 1: have instances where young children themselves have been able to
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  Speaker 1: take unclad images of themselves or video and themselves load
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  Speaker 1: them into social media services, and sometimes the parents are
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  Speaker 1: completely unaware.
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  Speaker 2: So I want to ask you a question about that, Jane,
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  Speaker 2: And it's a really hard question to ask in so
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  Speaker 2: many ways, I don't want the answer, but I think
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  Speaker 2: that every parent who's listening needs to know the answer
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  Speaker 2: so they know that this is serious. What's the youngest
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  Speaker 2: age of a child that you know who has been
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  Speaker 2: involved in a capping incident.
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  Speaker 1: I believe that there would be children as young as
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  Speaker 1: ten from what I understand, but as I said, it's
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  Speaker 1: predominantly the teenage years that we are most concerned about.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, but I think that it's worth pausing on this
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  Speaker 2: and just highlighting. So my youngest is nine, right, and
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  Speaker 2: by be too long till she's ten. She's such a tiny,
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  Speaker 2: tiny kid. And it's just I think it's that reminder
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  Speaker 2: a lot of parents say, oh, my kids aren't doing this,
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  Speaker 2: or they're not doing that, or they're safe because I've
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  Speaker 2: had this conversation and I keep coming back to this
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  Speaker 2: idea that they're just not safe for they're kids. It's
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  Speaker 2: like when we were doing parental guidance together, Jane, and
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  Speaker 2: we've got these kids that are accepting invitations from strangers
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  Speaker 2: to disclose personal details, even though the parents are sitting
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  Speaker 2: there saying, but we've had the conversation in terms of
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  Speaker 2: keeping our kids safe. I don't think we can be
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  Speaker 2: strong enough on this. Keep the phones out of the
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  Speaker 2: bedroom bathroom, and recognize that kids as young as ten,
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  Speaker 2: maybe even younger, are going to be approached and they
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  Speaker 2: need to know how to respond. It just seems to
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  Speaker 2: me like it's a massive parental responsibility. I want to
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  Speaker 2: talk about the practical stuff from parents for just a sec,
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  Speaker 2: but I have two questions that are really, I don't know,
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  Speaker 2: raging inside of me. One of them is just what's
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  Speaker 2: the law on this? I mean, it's obviously illegal, but
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  Speaker 2: what are we really talking about from a lawful perspective here?
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  Speaker 2: And is it the same Industrala as it is elsewhere.
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  Speaker 1: So the laws very unfortunately state by state in Australia
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  Speaker 1: and then also differ internationally as well, and the police
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  Speaker 1: response also differentiates as well across state and territories in Australia.
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  Speaker 1: So in relation to self generated content, what the ACE
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  Speaker 1: is very strong on is that we generally don't want
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  Speaker 1: to criminalize that behavior for a young person, and we
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  Speaker 1: want to look at the circumstances in which self generated
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  Speaker 1: material was actually created. So were they tricked, were they coerced?
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  Speaker 1: Where they led to believe that they were sharing with
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  Speaker 1: somebody that they knew or that they trusted. What happened
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  Speaker 1: in relation to having that self generated material created? Then
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  Speaker 1: for those matters to be investigated by police. If that
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  Speaker 1: was just a standalone matter of self generated material, police
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  Speaker 1: in each state and territory would need to take into
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  Speaker 1: account what are the motivations of those involved? Was it mutual,
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  Speaker 1: was it consensual? And was it just perhaps that the
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  Speaker 1: young people were exploring what are essentially adult concepts but
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  Speaker 1: something that we do see quite commonly in the teenage years.
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  Speaker 1: So we do say that if there's been threats or
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  Speaker 1: coercion or trickery involved in the generation of this self
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  Speaker 1: created material, that a young person is essentially a victim
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  Speaker 1: in that situation, and that a young person isn't actually
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  Speaker 1: to blame for falling victim to that kind of online offender.
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  Speaker 3: And we believe that in.
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  Speaker 1: All circumstances, these matters are complex and they need to
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  Speaker 1: be handled with sensitivity and care to ensure that the
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  Speaker 1: young person who is actually not revictimized through the process.
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  Speaker 1: So if it is a non aggravated circumstance, that there
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  Speaker 1: is mutual consent that perhaps sharing got a little bit
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  Speaker 1: out of hand, and that's how it came to law
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  Speaker 1: enforcement attention. Then a police responsor around the country ideally
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  Speaker 1: and typically focuses on.
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  Speaker 3: Education and prevention.
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  Speaker 1: But as soon as police get a sense that there's
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  Speaker 1: more to it, that perhaps there's other elements here where
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  Speaker 1: there's adults involved, and as I mentioned, there's threats and coercions,
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  Speaker 1: that is where they'll actually look at this quite differently
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  Speaker 1: and want to understand the circumstances. And that's exactly how
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  Speaker 1: some of these capping and sometimes sexual extortion matters are uncovered.
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  Speaker 2: Jane AI is becoming an increasingly relevant part of this
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  Speaker 2: discussion in terms of explicit material being both sought for
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  Speaker 2: and generated and even shared. Does that come into this
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  Speaker 2: capping and sexual exploitation discussion at all.
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  Speaker 1: There's a chance that when an offender approaches a young person,
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  Speaker 1: they've actually used AI generated images in order to lure
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  Speaker 1: that young person in. So it could be that it's
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  Speaker 1: actually not a real person of any sort, and that
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  Speaker 1: offenders will seek to hide behind an artificially created profile
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  Speaker 1: picture that is presumably attractive for the person they're trying
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  Speaker 1: to offend against. So yes, we would see AI utilized
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  Speaker 1: in that particular way most definitely.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, the world is changing in frightening ways. My last
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: question because our time is running out fast and parents
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: need solutions. This is the podcast for the time poor
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: parents who just wants answers. Now, now that we've discussed
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  Speaker 2: capping and what it is, how do parents talk about
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  Speaker 2: this with their children? What are your top couple of tips?
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so we've got so much advice to offer in
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  Speaker 1: this regard. We do not for a moment want parents
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  Speaker 1: to think that they're helpless. We want them to be
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  Speaker 1: able to feel that they're up for the challenge.
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  Speaker 3: So we would.
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  Speaker 1: Say, firstly, have an environment that is open and non judgmental.
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  Speaker 1: And we've talked about having conversations, really open conversations, and
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  Speaker 1: that they can't just be one off, they cannot be
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: set and forget. They need to be frequent and it
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: needs to adapt as we see these sorts of crimes
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  Speaker 1: adapt as well.
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  Speaker 3: So you as a.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: Parent, you might find it quite nerve racking and uncomfortable,
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: but this is a better scenario than having to deal
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: with the worst case scenario. At the end of the day,
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: it's important to have these conversations, and we stress to
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  Speaker 1: parents that they need to avoid judgmental language. They need
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: to avoid making judge themselves about you. How could you
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  Speaker 1: do this? How could you be so silly? We want
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  Speaker 1: to ask that they push past all of that and
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: get to the heart of the problem, because we know
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  Speaker 1: that for young people's shame can be a significant barrier
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  Speaker 1: in order to come forward and that could actually make
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: them even more vulnerable to ongoing exploitation. So we want
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  Speaker 1: them to speak up. We want them to feel comfortable
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  Speaker 1: enough to be able to share what's happening in their lives,
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: and offenders will use isolation tactics and shaming and that
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  Speaker 1: will reports coming forward. So parents need to find a
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: way to push past that. Parents also have a role
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: more broadly to teach kids critical thinking about how they
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: interact with people online and that simple message about not
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: everybody is who they say they are online, and to
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: keep that thinking up at all times when they're operating online.
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  Speaker 1: We have, you know, some major tips that we always
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: talk about for parents and cares. In addition to open conversations,
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: supervision is essential, particularly for younger users. It's important to
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: check your privacy settings to understand how much information a
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: young person's putting out there in the world, be approachable
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: if your child needs help, and then know how to report.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: For more great advice on how to keep our families
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  Speaker 2: safe online, especially our children, teenagers, all young people. Visit
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: the ACE website a triple C E, dot gov, dot AU.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: All of those resources that Detective super Into Tendant Jane
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: Crossling has just mentioned are available there and they will
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: keep your family safe. It's an important conversation. It's too
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: important to not have it. Jane as always so grateful
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: for the work that you do and for the time
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: that you've spent explaining this to us to help us
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: to keep our families safe. On the happy Families podcast,
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: Thank you Detective Superintendent Jane Crossling from the Australian Center
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: toccount of a child exploitation. The Happy Family's podcast is
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: produced by Justin Rouland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: our executive producer. Scary, isn't it like? It's just so
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: frightening that we live in a world where there are
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: people who have these motivations. Thank goodness we have people
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: like Jane and those who work with her to help out.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: If you'd like more information about making your family safe,
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: like I said, visit the a's website or check out
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: what we have to offer to guide your family at
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: Happy Families dot com do AU.