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Is drayage ready for a freight surge? · The Intermodal Logistics Podcast

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks very much for joining us on this edition of the Intermodal Logistics Podcast.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Kevin Baxter with my co-host today, InTech Logistics CEO, Rick Ladore.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Hey Rick, good to be back.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: And we are happy to have our guest today to talk Drage and the DRAGE market.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked about Drayage a couple of different episodes, but um not really uh taking the whole temperature of it and and of course uh a different angle that our guest today provides.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: He is the founder of LoadMatch and Drage.com and president of those uh two as well.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: His name is uh Jason Hilsendeck.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Jason, thanks very much for joining us.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: Hello.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: So uh that was a a little bit of a a primer, but tell us more about yourself.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: We like to get a little uh biography of our guests before we really get into it.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us more about yourself and and how you got into the industry and how long you've been doing it.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, pleasure to be here.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having me.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I got started actually in 1994.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: I graduated from Western Illinois University with a degree in supply chain management.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: And my career started then, went to work at Gen X, which was an intermodal marketing company in IMC.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: And back in the 90s, there was a lot of IMCs, and then names that you wouldn't recognize now.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: But that's where I got started.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: They hired me, the Middleton brothers hired me to do dispatch intermodal operations, and back then it was 45 and 48-foot rail trailers.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: So that's how I got started with all the there was more class ones, free-running rail trailers, and it was neat to see that the intermodal industry evolve in '94 to uh from 45-foot size trailers to 48-foot containers into 53-foot containers like the EMH to EMP to EMH program.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: And and uh really neat to see that.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that there was the NAX container program, there was the Stax container program, is a need to see those evolve and disappear.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: I went through the mergers like BN to Santa Fe, the UP to SP, uh, the CN buying the IC, the WC, the EJE.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: Went through the ComRail split up, and uh just can't wait for the UP to take over NS.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so so tell us about uh loadmatch and drage.com, how you came to uh put those two together and and how how they've been able to last uh stand the test of time really since you did uh found those.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that was 1999 that I got the websites going, and and that that came out of working and operations at Intermodal Mark at Gen X, the IMC.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean it was back then before the internet, I mean you used phone books.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I I still have a three-ring binder that that I started writing down like in my job, like which Draymond did what and which metro.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I still have this day, like you go to Dreyage.com, you click on the map, that City Metro is actually a tab and a three-ring binder.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's how that got going.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, I knew I was on to something when the guys in dispatch and and gals, you know, they would ask me, like, hey Jason, uh, where's the Bible?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: I need a trucker in Columbus, Ohio that has a triaxle.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I'd hand them that three-ring binder, and I'm like, huh, you know, if we need this and other IMCs need this, and you're using the quick collar guide, yellow pages, and this whole internet website thing was kind of cool.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: So that's how I got the websites going.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: So and load matches the posting board.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: So two quick things, like there's one thing when you need a trucker, you're just trying to find power to get a container out.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's the DreyH.com directory.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: And we're at we're down to 4,700 profiles now.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: I had 7800 different Draymond profiles during 2022 time when things are really tight, and we've uh trimmed out a lot of Draymond, so very strict on who gets on there.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: Load match is a posting board.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes you want to go find the trucker, contact them, other times you want to post on a board like DAT or truck stop, and that's where you post container loads to move, and the truckers bid on those.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: And they so in other words, load match is where you put something on the board, truckers contact you, drayage.com is the phone book, that's where you contact the truckers.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's the difference.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I like uh your your email signature has it very simply laid out for just a quick uh quick primer, basically what you just said there.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I thought that was uh it's it's nice to be able to boil something down to to its essence in just a few words and and be able to tell people what it is.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: Our business is so complicated as it is.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: Starting out on a clear trajectory is good because it all goes Awire from there.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: So true, so true.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: So um also, I mean, the uh the other piece that we didn't mention, you're uh the director of the intermodal association association of Chicago.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so so what is IAC and and what does it cover?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, Intermodal Association of Chicago, it's a nonprofit group, and it's been around since 1961.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: And it was actually called the Piggyback Association back then.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: So when there were rail trailers and they morked to containers, you know, the name got changed to Intermodal Association.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: And that job, I'm proud of the group.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: There, I mean, their job is to provide uh a way of networking with all the providers of Intermodal in Chicago, the truckers, the vendors, the railroads, the ocean lines, the shippers, IMCs, freight brokers.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: Provide that communication in a in a networking format.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: And it's uh I would would love to go more into it, like how we'd like to improve the Chicago community, but it's really tough dealing with class one railroads, they're private entities.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they own the terminals, it's not like the ports where you know a port authority can dictate to a terminal operator or an ocean line or a vessel operator what they should do.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the railroads control everything.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: So we can complain and and uh and all that stuff, but it at least we provide a networking so networking opportunities for all those companies to communicate.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: So part of that, you have a uh your largest meeting or an annual meeting in in March of every year.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: And if I remember right, so and then in March, you come out with this big study or report that talks about who owns the containers, who's gaining more containers, who's backing out of the industry or backing away from purchasing containers.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: You basically give an overall picture of what's going on.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: Is there some things that that you can share um about or what do you've seen um in the last report and maybe some changes that have already happened?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: I've been doing an annual update for I don't know gosh, 13, 14 years.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, and also, Rick, I gotta point out that that meeting is around 300 people, but our biggest meeting is the December holiday party, the prom, the trucker prom, which is 1200.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: We limit it to 1200 people.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's actually our biggest meeting, but it's just you know a dinner party.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: But that's how important networking is, you know, communication one-on-one.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, people flying from all over the country to attend that December holiday party with 1,200 people.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: In March, I do an annual update, and I the takeaway from March was the the container fleet count, just my uh the two big things I do are the the drayage outlook and the 53-foot container fleet outlook.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: And on the 53-foot fleets, very important to know that again, JB Hunt and Amazon added 53-foot containers to their fleets.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: They added 7,900 containers in one year time.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: Just those two companies.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody else didn't add, or if they added to replace their uh their uh containers that came out of their fleets.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: And the other takeaway is again JBHunt Amazon added, and again, the EMH UMAX program declined.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: And it was they declined 2900, 2200.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: So the the Umax fleet reduced again by 2200 containers, so that's 3900 for Umax and 3736 for EMH.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're in other words, if you're a BCO shipper, you have plenty of 53 foot capacity with the private fleet owners, they have they have two-thirds of the marketplace.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: There's 373,000 53 foot containers in the US fleets.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not counting the Canadian fleet or the Mexican fleets, so that's why TTX, their number is bigger.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: But for the US marketplace, 373,000 and so yeah, if you're if you're an IMC like you guys are, Rick, I mean you're your available capacity is declining with the railroad-owned network of boxes.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's been a bit since they've added to the fleet, correct?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: They haven't added in over a 10 year decade.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's been a bit.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so it uh but you know you've got CLC logistics, you know, on the BNSF.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: So they've added that, I mean, they've they're at 8,8500 containers.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: So you've got that marketplace, and who knows what's gonna happen if this merger goes through.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: We'll talk about you know, future stuff later, I know.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right, right.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, how has uh as as you look at the container mix?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you talked about the the declines and and the uh the gains there, how has that changed since you've been uh first following that uh that count, uh, as you said, about uh what 15 years ago or so?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, it's triple in size in 14 years.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: We were at a hundred and fifteen thousand containers in the US probably f 14, 15 years ago.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean the containers you and the reason is is because contain 53-foot containers are cheap.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the wheels aren't attached, so it's cheap to build a box.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: They were well cheap back then.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: And you had to transition away from trailers on flat cars to containers on flat cars, so so that's why the container count has tripled in the past decade and a half.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: So there's I I what's really important as you know, Rick, is that there might be 370,000 containers, but how many are actually available for use?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, how many are stacked?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: So like so that's really the question.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I'd I'd say I mean rock 53 foot intermole is rocking and rolling.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, you know, so I'd I mean you talk to COC logistics, and I think they're at their all-time biggest use of their containers.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: Very few are stacked, and they're getting good utilization.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a really neat time with the 53-foot container marketplace.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it is.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because yes, a lot of stuff was stacked between July 2022 and the first of this year.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um well, actually, but even before that they start on stacking.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's good to see them all back in circulation or pretty close to all back in circulation, and still see price increasing thanks to what's going on in the trucking market.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, amen.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: Love it.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: Also, speaking of the trucking market and we're speaking of of drainage, obviously, um we we've heard a lot of stuff uh in the the overall general space about uh trucking capacity declining, uh all of the regulations that have uh affected things.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but we haven't really talked uh on this podcast at least too much about the um how that's affected drainage.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and obviously uh I I think it's it's pretty common knowledge out there that that drainage capacity is a little tighter too.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: So so where is that uh at this point?
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: What were you seeing in March and and how has that uh continued forward?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yes.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the all the enforcement and the crackdown is is taking out driver capacity.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: But as you know, with drayage driver, the capacity of that marketplace is a small subset of the overall you know CDL drivers out there.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: And the way you can track it with with rail drayage is the U Intermodal Association North America, IANA runs the UIIA Uniform Intermodal Interchange Agreement program.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: And within the UIIA, they register driver names.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's the Intermodal Driver Database IDD.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: And with the IDD, the numbers were at 470.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: Let me get this right for you here.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: I wrote that down.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: Starting out, they had four this year, end of January, 470,000.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: Where is it?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: 470,000 or so.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: They're at 460 right now, dropped by about 20,000 drivers in the past six months or so.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: So that so yeah, that that has taken out some drivers.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the English language enforcement, non-domicile, so yeah, that that has affected capacity, but it's come back up.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: It actually came back up in this at the end of June.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: So it it's interesting that as demand goes up and dray rates go up, that you know, driver capacity comes back into the marketplace.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: So it dropped from January to March, 460,000.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's it's so we went back up to 467,000 at the end of June.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: Four set 482, 482,000 drivers in December, 473 in January, went down to 460 in April, back up to 467,000.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, driver capacity comes back when the rates go up.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's super interesting because a lot of the stuff that I've been reading about the trucking side of things is that when we lose these drivers based off of these regulations, this unlike other market uh other times when you know um business goes down, these people leave the market and then they eventually wait to the rates to come back up again and then they come back in, and during that period of time, you know, they're either working in the construction side or just a whole bunch of other things they can be doing.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so the the conversations I've been hearing is that well, uh, this all has to do with regulations if these folks are illegal in some form of what some form of fashion and they're not coming back.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Your data says that on the driver's side, what always happens rates go down, people exit the market, rates come up, people come back in the market.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, and it's uh and it says that that pattern is is holding steady.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like we're at 467, and during the pandemic times, it peaked at 591,000.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's how many drivers were registered doing rail drage during the peak back in the pandemic time.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: 591,000 drivers.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: And it went, we were down to 460 two months ago, came back up to 467 end of June.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: So uh there are plenty of skilled human beings out there that are qualified to drive trucks, and they will do it if the money's there.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: Now, hopefully, the ones that aren't skilled, like this is my biggest beef with this whole okay, this whole crap with driver shortage.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like when I started in '94, first thing I heard when I got out of college in that seat doing dispatch, oh, there's a driver shortage.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: I remember being with uh with Dave Manning at TCW on a panel at Anna like like back in 2005, there's a driver shortage.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: Well, guess what?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: We relaxed all those rules to fill the driver shortage with visas from overseas folks to come in and drive trucks.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: We there was lax schooling for these drivers to get trained.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: There's lax DMV uh when you get your driver's license, you got to go to a DMV and get inspected.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: The DMV folks are lax at qualifying drivers.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not where they're born, it's how their skill is at driving trucks.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: So somehow with the driver shortage, we let the skill level decline.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what really gets me.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, but I'm I'm telling you, there is plenty of skilled human beings that can speak English and understand signs that will drive trucks if the money's there.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so even with the the fact that the the numbers have come back up a bit uh during the year, there are certain markets that are especially dealing with some some tightness.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: I know you had um uh you posted in June about uh Savannah being, I think that was that the most uh difficult market uh at the time uh for drage capacity.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Savannah and Houston, they are they're just popping, and they still are.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: And this is the other part with driver capacity, it's very tied to how efficient terminals are at processing drivers.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, if you think about I I do a whole I've done this before where like for a Savannah, their issue was increased volumes and slower turn times in the terminal for the drivers, so longer time the drivers there.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: And if you think about Savannah, they had some issues processing drivers and they do about they hover between 12 and 15,000 gate transactions per day.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I think they got up to 17,000, don't quote me on that, but I remember talking to a guy there uh a couple months ago and they they're booming.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: So think about it, if there's 15,000 gate transactions, drivers going to and from the gate, and say in that time that they're spent in the terminal, whether it's a rail or port terminal, 15,000 times 10 extra minutes per driver per transaction, that's 150,000 extra minutes per day.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's 2,500 driver hours.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: So same number of drivers, but you just extended their hours of service by 2,500 over 15,000 transactions.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: So driver drayage capacity comes down to how fast terminals process the drivers.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: Just like when they get out on the street to the warehouse, if they're stuck at a warehouse, driver delays, unloading or loading.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if they're dropping, not such a big deal.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: But terminal productivity is the number one determinant of drayage driver capacity.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: So uh Savannah, and you said Houston as well, is that kind of a similar issue or or was theirs a little bit different?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: That well, there's always volume, you know.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: You can't discount the volume.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if there's more volume of containers to move, you need more hours to get those containers out.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, if a d if a terminal processes one container every hour versus a hundred containers every hour, that's what where driver capacity is either sucked up or becomes efficient.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: And a couple of stats are these are from last night.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: So Savannah is still in the Savannah, this is the port side.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I I completely forgot to qualify that intermodal is split between ocean side and domestic 53-foot side.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: So when we're talking about drayage demand, we're talking about port drayage here with Savannah and Houston.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: Dallas is the screwed up part for a 53-foot intermodal right now.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: But in Savannah, past 60 days, 125,000 clicks were made in 60 days on Savannah.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: Houston came in at 105,000.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: This is what I think is so interesting.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: If you think about the volumes of LA Long Beach, they're at 104,000 compared to Savannah at 125,000 clicks in 60 days.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: So Savannah's, you know, a fifth the size, or I shouldn't say fifth, but comes in fourth or fifth after LA Long Beach, because you know, it depends if you combine LA Long Beach or not.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: But LA Long Beach, incredible volumes, just really great numbers of volumes coming in the ports, and they're doing a great job turning the drivers.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so we don't see as many clicks looking for Dre Dreyage driver capacity at LA Long Beach because they're kicking butt.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: They're really processing drivers fast.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's always exceptions.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: So that's LA Long Beach doing great.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: Savannah Houston, the number of uh the time it's taking and the volume is sucking up capacity.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's the most number one click in Chicago's been nuts.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: So 104,000 clicks for LA Long Beach, 102,000 for Chicago Drage.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: So Chicago.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Chicago's been tough to get Dreage capacity to.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: And that's both style of boxes.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: Big box and small box.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so just backing up, I didn't explain this, but uh, but the the clicks you're talking about uh on Dreyage.com, this is how you're tracking uh the activity.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, on the DreyH.com website, it's a directory, and I feel like most people have other things to do with their life than go looking on the Dre list.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: So if they're hitting the DreH.com site, clicking on a metro, it probably means they're looking for a capacity or a rate.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a demand of some sort.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: So we infer that if there's a click because they're clicking on, and these are actual human-made clicks, they're logged in, so they're not this is all human-made, not AI.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: And we believe that they're clicking on a metro, they're needing drayage, so there's a demand for something.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so those are the hotspots.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: Savannah, Houston, LA, Chicago, New York, in that order.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: And oh there is a caveat though.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: So just because there's a number of clicks doesn't mean that's necessarily a most stressed metro.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: The most stressed metro right now is Dallas, like Alliance, like a Haslett and Dallas ramps.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: And what I mean by that is in that same 60-day time period, we've got 37,000 clicks made on Dallas Fort Worth, but because the marketplace is smaller and there's fewer Draymond in that marketplace, if you take the number of clicks made on a city metro versus the number of draymens that serve that metro, Dallas by far is the most difficult to find at drayage capacity.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: And that's that's due to both style of boxes, big box and small box.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: So the that's the most stress.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: Nashville's under that, then Houston, then Phoenix of all places.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: They're UP's doing a great job.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I think being a self of running ocean boxes into the Phoenix Metro because we've had a lot of demand for that local drayage.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're a Draymond out there, Phoenix and Nashville are where you want to open up your next drayage locations, your drayage terminals.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: I can speak for Phoenix.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: We've picked up quite a bit of business out of Phoenix and sitting out in operations.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's uh yeah.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: I know, Rick.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I hear a lot.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: I wish in our business we could I get asked by like Evans and the other agencies, like, hey, where should we put drivers in?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I'm like, these are the metros that are hot right now.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, well, we don't know if it's gonna last.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I don't either, but you're asking.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: So Alex, Nashville, Phoenix are the small metros where if you're a drage terminal, Dreage operator with drivers, that's where you want to set up shop right now.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so overall, the the numbers on on Dreyage demand, I think uh the the report that you had at the end of June was talking about uh demand being a little bit down going into the the 4th of July as a as a nationwide uh number.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: But uh yeah, it's back up.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: We're right back up.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it it's it's really at a high level.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: I believe we're at, let me take a look here.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's been stable over the past four weeks, just two percent up, but over the past six months, we're 27% higher demand in the past six months.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: So if you go back, you know, earlier the part of the year, we're 27% higher number of clicks nationwide looking for drage capacity, big box and small box.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: So lots of demand, less capacity for the driver's side, more volume, higher demand.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have a split between what is the big box and what's the small box?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in terms of drage capacity.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: In the directory, if I could get everybody to identify what they're actually looking for, I could do that.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: But I just I just know that, like with you guys or another IMC, like if you click on a metro, I can see the filters you're looking at, but oftentimes they just click and I don't really know what they're looking for.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: I just know they clicked on a Draymond profile in Chicago or wherever.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, that'd be really interesting, you know, to see it would be to see what's going on because I mean for us, we're moving 53s, and then we also play in the repo market.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we're we're moving a lot of 40s as well from inland out to the coast, take advantage of those uh ISO boxes that we can pick up some good rates and and move some heavier product.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, that's a great thing to do if you can repo do domestic loading on the ocean boxes.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, if I can get everybody to tell me what they're really looking for, it'd be awesome to describe as an industry what's really hot and what's not.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure it'll come.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody wants more data.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody wants more data.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: And and uh and uh a lot of the stuff that with AI is is really driving people.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I can do this now.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, if I could just have that one more piece.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh that'll fit that'll figure everything out.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'll tell you what, on the driver capacity side, like the one thing I would love to do is that when I tell you there's 462,000 or 467,000 drayage drivers, that's just the rail number.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: No one has ever put together, like in the port of LA Long Beach, there's 20 some thousand drivers registered to do port drage.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: That's different than the rail drage.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: But some of those drivers registered at the port also do rail.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm guessing, like for example, in Chicago, we calculated between big box turns or gate transactions that there's probably 22,000 drivers that do drage in Chicago, big box and small box.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: That includes JB Hunt, FedEx, all the ocean box guys.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: And if you think about LA Long Beach, they've got harbor trucking says that they've got 20 some thousand driver names registered with the port.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: About 15,000 of those are active every day.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you combine another like 5,000 doing rail drayage.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I think Chicago marketplace and then you combine the drayage of ocean port terminals and rail terminals.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think Chicago and LA are about the same in volume for drayage drivers.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: So those are the stats I would love to see as a business, as our industry put together the whole picture.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, I guess me too.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: So so yeah, tell us a little bit more uh about Chicago.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think uh anyone involved in intermodal knows how um important Chicago is, but uh as like as a 20,000-foot view of uh of what happens in Chicago uh in terms of drayage and and how it links everything uh with intermodal.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us tell us about how how unique it is.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, Chicago's amazing.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: And uh as you or people probably in this podcast or watching knows that Chicago's nuts with all the terminals because you've got, depending on how you count the terminals, I say 14 between the big box domestic 53 intermodal terminals and the ocean box terminals.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: And it's 60 58 miles from way south at BNSF Elwood to get to the CPKC up in Bensonville, so nearly 60 miles spread.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: And some terminals are blended between big box and small box.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: Some terminals are grounded, meaning the box gets put on the ground truck or pixel chassis, and then it gets complicated with these terminals like UP and D N SF that on okay all big boxes are wheeled, hopefully, on good sets of wheels.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: The ocean box is what makes it challenging.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're uh doing imports or exports through Chicago, that's where it gets nuts because you don't know well, you should know if the wheels are provided or if the trucker needs to provide it, if it's gonna be grounded, if there's a lift flee or lift fee or a chassis split.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: So Chicago's spread out multiple everywhere, every all class ones come here.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: So you've got that that blend.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so between the distance, the the sheer amount of domestic and ocean box volume, and the big metro long haul drayage happens out of here.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: You got short haul, long haul to Wisconsin, Ohio.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: So really great place to do intermodal.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so with let's let's get back to the the merger.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: We we talked about it a little bit uh already with the the container question.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um one of the things that the the merger is talking about is uh is keeping uh like a single line situation for um those two entities uh going forward, UP and NS.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: So uh what do you see as as the implications of that if it if it does go through for Chicago and for Intermodal overall?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's we're talking about future stuff here, so we don't know what's being said will actually turn true.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, with any merger you want to consolidate, you want to reduce costs.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean they are UP has said that they would close one or two of the the NS terminals and consolidate, which I could, you know, I can I can see that happening.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, UP might close you know, like Dalton or something to consolidate to you know to another NS terminal.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, there'll be some consolidation of terminals, and uh which drives me nuts because if you're trying to expand intermodal volumes, you need terminal footprint, and a lot of these terminals are locked in.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: So they talk about closing terminals, which means reducing terminal footprint.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how you can grow intermodal volume if you don't have more terminal space to process the volume, so that fundamentally certainly slows down the processing that we were just talking about earlier in terms of how long it takes you to get through a ramp.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: It was this is a side note, but I was at BNSF Alliance and there's actually diminishing returns of scale.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: So, like the at BNSF Alliance, they said they have a possibility of expanding even further north, but it takes so long within that terminal to get to process way north to come south to the entrance that they feel like it might be better to have a separate terminal to process another customer.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's fascinating because you can get too big and it takes so long the transaction time of lifting off the train and all the yard jocking and all the dragage driver traffic.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: So so fundamentally, I it's like if you're gonna shrink terminal footprint, but you want to grow intermodal volume, I don't see how you can do both of those.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you go ahead and take it, I mean you've got there's limiting factors.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, so you got you got terminal space, then also boxes.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's if we're gonna go ahead and increase the total number of of intermodal moves, more investment needs to be made in boxes.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um because well, there's just so many, there's only so many turns you can do in a box.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you start looking at some of the numbers that uh are being thrown out there, it it's really hard to fathom how that's gonna happen without bringing more boxes into the market.
• 33:33
  unknown: Yeah.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have any thoughts on that?
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: Consider you track that all the time.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I hear what you're saying.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it you to bring to add more intermodal volume, you need more box capacity, you need the chassis too, you need the well cars, and you need the lift machines, and of course the labor to operate all this stuff.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: So it those are big investments.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: You don't are huge investments, and and a lot of the things that we talk about, or at least I talk about a lot, is that um drage is drage is where the is typically where the issue happens.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's either at at the ramp itself or it is at uh at the dock you're you're bumping um either at the origin or the destination.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: For the most part, the rail is is pretty on time with their stuff, but there's that there's capacity constraints and and various other factors.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: Where do I get my where do I get my chassis?
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: Where do I get and it just continually rolls all around?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um and this topic that we're having right now in terms of talking about trade is usually one that isn't discussed much because we're when you read you read the articles, we're always talking about 12 times train speeds, yada yada yada.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: But in the end, uh in an intermodal move, there's three moves, and two of them usually don't get discussed much.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm glad we're sitting here talking about it today because it's kind of the forgotten part in a lot of cases.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: I would I would love to see IANA start publishing, in addition to train speed, driver processing times.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: I like to see how long it's actually taking per driver at every terminal, and and have an idea of like if I'm routing my cargo, ocean or domestic, and I have a choice of routing different railroads, I would love to know the driver processing times.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: Just as like like I see train speed or schedules of like here's when you in-gate and here's an out gate, there's a published time, I'd like to see how much time it takes for the driver to get through that particular ex that specific terminal.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I'd love to see IANA do that.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: And we have and the railroads have all that data, and the ocean ports, you know, they because they're they're they're they're entity owned, they can dictate that that that driver turn time data is published.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: But I'd love to see that happen.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if I have a choice, I'd like to route my containers on the most efficient railroad network with the most efficient terminals, and that terminal transaction time is a reflection of chassis availability and the speed at driver processing.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so speaking of of chassis availability, I know Chicago has had challenges with that.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Where where are we at now in terms of that availability and uh uh uh how things have gone with with cost and accessibility to both of those?
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'd say on the 53-foot side, I feel like I mean I see the complaints about you know 53-foot chassis under boxes that need to be repaired.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: That seems to be happening more frequently, but overall it feels like most 53-foot boxes are being mounted automatically wheeled like they should.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: On the ocean box side, oh that's a whole nother thing.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, UP's been having problems with the small boxes, the 20s and 40s, because they automatically wheel.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: And and I'm gonna say this, I have no shame in saying this, but you know, the union the railroads for the most part pay a contractor to pick out a chassis.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's really their job on wheeled facilities.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: And the contractor that operates a terminal on behalf of the railroad does not care the condition of the wheels that are placed underneath the boxes.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: And of course they claim it's not their job because every chassis should be perfect, you know, but you know that nothing's ever perfect.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what's happened is that as volumes pick up and the dwell time increases, so just like driver productivity, if the dwell time, the time it takes for that chassis to come back, or the time that the container's sitting on a chassis in the terminal as the dwell time goes up, you need more chassis to cover that delay.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, on the ocean box side, on wheel facilities, there's been a problem with the NSF UP.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: But uh like I remind folks, on the ocean box side, you know, those are the only two rails that automatically wheel ocean boxes.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: CN, CPKC, CSX, Norfolk Southern, they all ground ocean boxes and it's the trucker's choice to bring a chassis.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: And there aren't I shouldn't say there's always issues, but there's aren't issues of finding ocean box chassis on the grounded facilities because the truckers got those.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: And they will take the boxes off if they have to to free up a chassis outside the terminal.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: So it's the UP and VNSF that are on the old way of doing ocean boxes of wheeling per their ocean lines request.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: So uh one other Chicago note.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the um uh a few years ago, back uh when things were going kind of crazy on on the freight side of things, uh you had a uh report of uh$12 million uh for Chicago Draymond in uh in one month in 2021 for uh just ramp storage fees.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: So um how how does that differ from like a typical month?
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and where are we at uh today?
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, Kevin.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm telling you, that getting people to reveal how much they paid in ramp storage was I was honored that people trust me to with their data, and I value trust and integrity in this business more than anything.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I had plenty of people that divulged to me how much they spent either to the railroad directly or to the ocean lines, made sure that wasn't overlapping, and that was incredible how much money spayed.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: But wouldn't it be interesting if you calculated the total number of volume of domestic containers through Chicago, the total number of ocean box containers that arrive in Chicago that would be subject to ramp storage, and say you added you take that total number of millions of containers, there was seven hundred I think we're at seven million lifts per year, seven point five million lifts in Chicago.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: It varies up and down, but that's how much volume happens in Chicago.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: So if you if those seven million lifts per year, and say you take a quarter of those and tack on whatever ramp storage you want to make, you know, 200 bucks, you know, 150 dollars a day, 200 bucks a day, depending on the rail, and then add that up.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I that's a sizeable amount of money that the railroads and ocean lines make on storage.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it'd be interesting.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's another thing IANA could do.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe just like the cash reporting index on how much LTL companies get paid on their payables.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe we'd say all the IMCs and the the importers were like, how much money did you spend in storage last month?
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: And just tallied up.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: Be interesting, wouldn't it?
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, would be interesting.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's one of the reasons why uh some shippers shy away from intermodal because of those unknown fees that they they might get hit.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you know, you get fancy splits.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you you yeah, it's like various fees, a lot of various accessorials.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: Some some shippers have gotten burned in the past and their IMC hasn't helped them through the process, and um either pulling it from the ramp if there happens to be a storage to a uh a yard that would be cheaper.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's all kinds of different things.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so there's all kinds of things.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: Those types of things kind of kind of kind of scare some shippers away.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: Just the the the water cooler stories and copier stories that are head um at those those areas in the office.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: And oh no, I'm never gonna do intermodal.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I we I still run across those um those chippers and and those stories uh when we try to you know transition people off a truck.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm not going there for for those reasons.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Rick, your people do a great job though.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, they know like when if you ship on a Monday from LA and you're going to Chicago, it's gonna arrive on a Friday probably.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: So you try to guide your customer into like, hey, can you postpone to like a Wednesday so it gets there for a Monday delivery because you're still doing the same?
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: So but yeah, that's your that's your role in in this business is to guide these folks on how to save money on intermodal transportation, but doing it in a schedule in a way that that works for the intermodal network to reduce those costs.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why that's it's so critical.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean a lot of folks that that try to transition from truck to intermodal, they go into it thinking, okay, the box is basically the same size and yada yada yada.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: But it what what we like to say is it's you know, intermodal is truck-like, it's not exactly like truck.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: So there's things that you need to know about the intermodal service, the intermodal network, and the various pieces and parts um, so you can be successful.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because if you just go into it just saying, okay, it's exactly like truck, boom, I'm done.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna that's when you do get yourself in trouble.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's why there's always gonna be a need for a third party to to minimize or maximize the value of doing intermodal, big box or small box.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: Certainly hope so.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's what keeps our doors open.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, knowledge is amazing.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, so as the year continues, we are more than halfway through.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, what what do you think is is where things are heading in terms of of drage capacity and volume as uh as we get through the the rest of 2026 um and even beyond.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: We like we like to ask any any anybody who's following um the numbers kind of what their thoughts are.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: Well, gosh, back in March, I I was wrong.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like I told this group, I'm like, I I can't see uh the consumer spending continuing.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know the Iran war was gonna happen.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I was thinking it was gonna be a muted year, and then look at what happened.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: You've got the tariff thing, the forced labor that's bumping up import volumes.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: You've got trend the high diesels causing the shift to 53 foot enter modal.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: You got transload volume happening because of the the import push.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I I didn't see this coming in March, and March was five months ago.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I think for the rest of the year, I I can't see anything changing unless in some miraculous way diesel comes down and and there's a driver supply on the over-the-road side that comes back.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think domestic intermodals are gonna remain strong for the rest of the year.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm still surprised by import volumes.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I keep thinking data center construction is gonna peter out and the whole AI bubble's gonna burst, and that hasn't happened yet.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and and home construction's not that great, so that's not contributing, but yeah, we got all this volume.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean if interest rates rise at the end of the year, is that going to is that when the bubbles are gonna burst?
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, I don't know, but I feel like I feel like rage driver capacity will come back will will need to come back if the rate's pay enough, the drivers will come back, and they and I believe now there will be more qualified skill drivers than ever.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I think as an IMC or freight rover just like you vet over the road carriers, you need to vet your dramen, and so that's gonna be pressure on the drain who don't need those thresholds for safety.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: But I feel like if you know what you're doing and you vet your drayman, and there's big money being paid for transportation right now, I mean I think it's gonna be a good rest of the year.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: Don't ask me about 27, though.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_02: I have no idea.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly hope so.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly hope so.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Jason, thanks very much uh for all of this.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: Tell tell folks where they can find you.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think the the websites are pretty self-explanatory, right?
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: But uh but uh tell folks where they can find more from you too.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, loadmatchdrage.com and if you're in Chicago, Intermodal Association of Chicago.org.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, it's been a pleasure talking to both of you.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess we should say it now that this is our 100th episode between the Intermodal Logistics Podcast and InTech Freight and Logistics, the podcast.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: So uh excellent.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: Where's the fireworks?
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I thought about getting like uh one of those uh noisemakers or something.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, we could have kept some sparklers from the 4th of July, not not too far long ago.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: But uh but yeah, excited to to hit that milestone.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: And uh Jason, a great way to uh to celebrate it by talking about one of the the key components of uh of intermodal that uh I feel like you've been talking about more uh in the last several months, uh kind of drilling in, and you mentioned during the episode as well, how important uh drayage is to the actual on schedule, uh uncomplicated uh arrival of a load.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: And and and it's become a bigger and bigger issue as drivers have left the market.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um we've seen and it at the same time that volume is picking up because of the things that are going on in the truckload world.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I I thought it was great to have Jason on because he's one of the ones out there that speaks the most and and most knowledgeable about what's going on in the drain network.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: I know he's got a lot of stuff and a lot of people go to him because of what's going on in Chicago, but his information is beyond just Chicago.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um and one of the parts that I really found interesting is the part that we've been running across several times over again, which is the driver capacity is leaving the market, and because they're leaving because they're illegal in some form or fashion, um, they're not coming back.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: And well, I I say that.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um Jason Miller um from Michigan State um.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I was trying to remember if it if he was our last one or not.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh every now and then Shelly sneaks into a conversation here and I and I'm not part of it um of that podcast.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: And in any case, both of them have said um that if rates return, drivers will return.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: There's enough.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: There will be drivers.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: There will be drivers.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: You build it, they will come.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I thought that was interesting too.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: And uh Jason Hilsenbeck today said something that Jason Miller had just said to us uh on the last episode.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the the numbers actually are bearing it out now for on the drainage side from uh the dip, and now it's going back up again.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's great news.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's great news for lots of folks.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's great news for the the drainage community to be able to come back um and and be able to move freight at a a profit for themselves.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it's great for the IMCs out there to be able to see that that increase as well, so that we can offer and and feel confident in the services that we provide on the shippers that they transition from truckload to intermodal um during this time period.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: So um that was I mean, he had a lot of good information.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, one of the pieces of information that uh I wrote down as we um separated out is that right now the driver um we're just the driver um or the licensed drivers is just down, you know, about 10 to 20,000 drivers from where it was.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: 480 is is sort of like the the going number.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it we're just down a little bit right now from where we were in whatever we want to call normal, but we're we're calling normal 2018.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 2018, 2019 into the run of 2020.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's also positive and and feels it gives me some confidence again that that uh the service level um is gonna be there for those those people that are transitioning out.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, this I thought this was a great hundredth um uh episode I mean to to have on on the topic because the other thing is you said I I've been talking a lot about drayage, and that's the part I think often gets missed.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: You got three parts of intermodal, two of them are drayage, but most of the conversation that goes on about intermodal is what's what's going on with the railroads.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um and most of the problems happen at the the drayage segments.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: There's just there's just more to deal with.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, there's more to deal with and there's all the variables he was talking about and uh and variables that we didn't even touch on.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, absolutely.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so if you've joined us for all 100, thank you very much.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: If this is your first episode, thank you very much too.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: We appreciate it.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: And uh please do subscribe, follow wherever you get your podcasts, drop us a comment, like, rate review, all of that stuff is uh great for us.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: If you have uh other questions for us or deeper comments that you want to take offline, feel free to email us at podcast at intechlogistics.com and you can visit our website, www.intechlogistics.com, for more about the company.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: Again, thanks to Jason Hilsonbeck for joining us today.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: And Rick, thank you.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: Great to be back.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: We will be back again soon with another episode.