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Transcript

Le Mans · The Next Reel Film Podcast

• 0:02
  Pete Wright: I'm Pete Wright.
• 0:03
  Andy Nelson: And I'm Andy Nelson.
• 0:04
  Pete Wright: Welcome to the next reel. When the movie ends
• 0:07
  Andy Nelson: Our conversation begins.
• 0:09
  Pete Wright: Le Monde is over, racing his life. Anything before or after is just waiting.
• 0:16
  Trailer: Le Mans. At 200 miles an hour, the pressure of winning and losing is tough enough. Explaining it to someone else makes it even tougher. This isn't just a thousand to one shot. This is a professional blood sport, and it can happen to you.
• 0:34
  And then it can happen to you again. What is so important about driving faster than anyone else? A lot of people go through life doing things badly. Racing is important to men who do it well. Racing, it's life.
• 0:52
  Anything that happened before or after, it's just waiting. Le Mans, the men, the machines, the motion
• 1:00
  picture. Steve
• 1:02
  McQueen stars in it. No one else could.
• 1:07
  Pete Wright: Alright. Andy, here we are.
• 1:09
  Andy Nelson: Here we are.
• 1:10
  Pete Wright: What'd you think? Did you like it?
• 1:12
  Andy Nelson: Le Mans was a film that, you know, cut a good hour plus from the runtime that we had on Grand Prix, which was pushing three hours. This was just under two hours, yet it felt like twenty four hours. This film took forever. I hated this movie. You did?
• 1:32
  Absolutely hated it. It was like, good god. Are we gonna ever gonna
• 1:36
  Pete Wright: end? Yeah.
• 1:37
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. I mean, I appreciate things about it. I appreciate that I don't know. We'll talk about kind of the production. How much was how much of the decisions really boiled down to Steve McQueen?
• 1:48
  How many boiled down to John Sturgis when he was involved? What about Lee H. Katzen? Like, it's very, like, this interesting kind of documentary approach to how they tell the story. Lots of just random footage of people.
• 2:04
  Like, you really get a sense that this almost felt like a Fredrik Weisman documentary, where you're just it's just the camera looking at stuff for like four hours. Like, that's how Weisman makes his films. You're just like, his documentary Zoo is like a four hour documentary, and you're just, like, looking at all of these different things and how people take care of the animals and and the people who are going to the zoo and the the fundraisers that they have at night after the zoo is closed. Like, you're just seeing all of this stuff, the life of a day in the life of the zoo. This was like a day in the life of this twenty four hour period.
• 2:38
  You're watching the police get ready. The people were sleeping in the fields. So seventies. People like, you know, everything, like, had this documentary approach to it, which I found interesting and I appreciated. But it was kind of glacial.
• 2:53
  Like, the way that the thing was put together was such I don't know. Like, the race was completely not interesting at all. And I I had all these questions like, why are they letting all these little cars in the race too? Like, I couldn't figure out, like, all of these things that they just are also doing.
• 3:10
  Pete Wright: I'm so glad you bring up these questions. Keep them coming because I've got things to talk about.
• 3:14
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. It just never really answers it. And you just have this car race, and and I just don't like, there are relationships that are kind of developed. I appreciate that they actually went to the effort of doing it in a different style. Like, we opened the film with him seeing some strange woman.
• 3:32
  We don't know who she is. He goes and stares at a fence. I was kind of able to figure out what had happened there before the director decided to. Now we're going to do an a long zoom in on Steve McQueen's face. Now we're gonna do a long zoom in on the fence.
• 3:48
  Like, he was overdoing, like, stuff that just made it so obvious. But at least it was, you know, kind of done in a not so overt away. So I appreciated some of that. But then we get to, like, the characters and the stories, and I'm like, okay, we kind of know that there's some some stuff going on between these characters, but there's just like nothing exciting about any of it. So it just was like, Steve McQueen.
• 4:12
  I love Steve McQueen. I love he's into racing. I love he's passionate about all this sort of stuff. And I'm sure, especially since they started this before Grand Prix and finished it five years after Grand Prix, they probably said we need to come at it from a different direction. And they do, and I appreciate that.
• 4:30
  But, man, it just was a total snooze. I could I fell asleep at one point, and there was just so much random footage of racing. I'm like, I have no idea where I fell asleep. And I had to, like, back it up and start the movie over again because I'm like, Jesus. And then it was like And
• 4:44
  Pete Wright: then you've been in minutes. Missed anything at all.
• 4:46
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Forty minutes, like, in the film before somebody actually has any form of a conversation. You know, it's just like, wow, this is and, you know, I'm I sound like somebody who doesn't appreciate an artistic approach to film. I definitely do.
• 4:58
  Pete Wright: It sure does. Yeah.
• 4:59
  Andy Nelson: I'm Artie Andy after all. I'm not sure. But but, man, I just I could not with this one.
• 5:05
  Pete Wright: Okay. Well
• 5:06
  Andy Nelson: There's a lot. There you go. Sorry.
• 5:08
  Pete Wright: So alright. So I'm gonna give you all of that. That is it is well deserved. I it is a it's a a struggle of a film in in many ways. I wonder if you were more of a racing fan, if you would have connected to it differently.
• 5:27
  And so, of course, we're gonna talk about Le Mans. But the other thing that I think that is interesting about it is we're also gonna watch Ford versus Ferrari, which is a story about Le Mans. And the difference between the two is one of them is the experience of Le Mans, and the other one is a story about Le Mans. And I prefer the latter. When I go to a movie, I actually prefer seeing a a narrative, and this one doesn't give me that.
• 5:57
  And I think part of the problem that we have with it is as scary as some of the driving was and let me just say from the top, the experience of the race has never been captured better. Right? It's a slog of a race with way too many people. And and particularly in this era of the race, it was incredibly dangerous. Like, people were way too close to the to the track.
• 6:22
  I mean, they're or to the, the course. And I felt But but nobody gets killed
• 6:27
  Andy Nelson: in this one. Right. No no onlookers. Yeah.
• 6:31
  Pete Wright: No onlookers get killed in this one. That is that is difference. That is a difference. But the just the that opening experience I found so claustrophobic seeing because this was that was all shot at Le Mans. So many people, I thought, how would anybody ever want to attend a live race like that?
• 6:50
  That seems excruciating. And I thought that that emotional experience, I think they captured pretty well. The Zooms, the crash Zooms, the, you know, you know, you know, all the cuts, the editing was, I think, of its time. I found it disastrous. I didn't I felt like it took me way out of the race.
• 7:12
  And because there was so little story and maybe because Steve McQueen had only 12 lines, I think, in the movie, I didn't feel much for anyone. I it never let me feel for anyone. All that said, I didn't hate the movie because I love the race. I think it's cool. And so I have to ask you, what do you know about Lamont?
• 7:38
  Did you know anything going into this movie? Did it teach you anything about it? My hunch is no.
• 7:44
  Andy Nelson: Well, I mean, I I had seen Ford v Ferrari a while And so I knew, like, what Le Mans was and kind of how the race went. I didn't know that they allowed cars of all varieties and they do mention that. I had to turn on the you know, it's it's an interesting sound design because they use the announcer as a form of exposition to kind of explain what's going on, But it's kind of in the background and not always easy to hear, so I actually turned the subtitles on so I can actually go, oh, okay. This is what they're talking about. But then also sound wise, like, it's almost as if it's meant to not be listened to because there are times where other people start talking in a foreign language, and that pushes the sound of the announcer down so you don't get to hear what the announcer's talking about.
• 8:32
  Or car engines and stuff, so or revving. So you don't always get to actually hear stuff. And I mean, that's I think, that speaks to creating this world. Like, from start to finish, every time you have the racers talking to one another or talking to their, I don't know, coach. I don't know what his role is, but the head guy of the team, you don't ever hear the conversation.
• 8:54
  You just see their mouths moving and they're yelling at each other, but you're just it's all over car engines. And so there's like, you just hear you see them talking, but we don't get to know what the conversation is. Once in a while, you do like, oh, the brakes are doing fine or he doesn't like it. You know, pass him in such and such. He doesn't like it or whatever.
• 9:12
  Like, you get a few little glimpses, but not much. And even when we're having conversations off the track, like, have a few times when Steve McQueen goes and talks to Lisa, and even those conversations are minimal. Minimal. Very minimal. I'm sorry.
• 9:32
  Totally went off the LeMond conversation.
• 9:34
  Pete Wright: No. You're great. You're great.
• 9:36
  Andy Nelson: But, yeah, back to Le Mans. Yeah. It's Le Mans. I know that it's twenty four hours. I couldn't remember in the movie Le Mans or the movie, Ford v Ferrari if they're trading drivers.
• 9:47
  I guess they must have because that seemed to be a thing. I just I just always pictured Christian Bale driving, but he must have been changing. Yeah. So I guess I had just forgotten that. And I think the thing that most surprised me is that just you have such a variety of cars, including little tiny, like, Fiat sorts of cars driving on the track that leads to a particular accident for for McQueen.
• 10:12
  Pete Wright: It it's crazy. Right? It is crazy, but that is exactly how it's done. The the cars and and classes have changed over the years, but they still have multiple cars and classes on the road at the same time, including hypercars. Right?
• 10:31
  These hybrid Le Mans hypercars that'll, you know, hit 215 miles an hour and stock sports cars and little modified, you know, other cars. But they're all racing at the same time because the race is not only about speed. Right? The race is about distance. That's the whole thing.
• 10:53
  Whoever wins is the is the car that drove the farthest in twenty four hours. And that's different than a lot of races. So endurance is actually the the key driver here. And if you drive fast, you're taking a lot more risks of accident, and a slower car can actually win because, you know, it's a tortoise and the hare thing. That's kind of the whole the whole model.
• 11:21
  Multiple drivers share a car. Back then, it was often two. Now it's three. So when and there are required rest periods just like there were let's see. I have so many notes on things I wanted to talk about that I am dizzy with excitement about Le Mans.
• 11:38
  The track is eight and a half miles long. It is the Circuit De La Sartre. Circuit De La Sartre. It's very close to Le Mans, the town in France. The highest speed section, which we see over and over in this in this movie, is the Mulsanne Straight, and that's where they hit the highest speeds.
• 11:57
  These cars at the time were incredibly dangerous. Many of them had no seat belts in them because the drivers were afraid of being caught in fires. They were at they weren't unibody cars, so the frame was separate from the body on the outside, which is why you see in the in the crashes, they shred like paper mache in this movie. Many of the cars in this movie were the real cars. They were just rockets with paper mache cases on them.
• 12:26
  That has long been diminished. The top speeds of the cars in this era were was 240 miles an hour on that Mulsanne Straight, and now they top out at, you know, two fifteen, two zero five, two 15. So it's incredibly dangerous. The endurance factor is the number one factor of this race. Unlike f one, where you just wanna come in first and get the points, This is you want your team to stay awake and stay healthy and stay hydrated and be able to keep the car running the longest.
• 12:56
  So it's crazy that we have these prototype sports cars, these custom built Porsches and Ferraris. The Porsche nine one seven that the of the era was the sort of supreme car against the Ferrari five twelve, which is what we see in the film, and that was the, really, the horse race of the era. But these GT cars, these Grand Touring cars that are just modified road going sports cars that you might see at your neighborhood stoplight are also on this race. It's like we were talking about the Nurburgring, where you can just take your, you know, Subaru and run it as fast as you can next to a Porsche and a Ferrari, you know, these incredibly fast sports cars. So that's the that's a little bit about the race.
• 13:40
  Andy Nelson: And it's the same same track today as it was at this time. Like, it's still cutting through this town?
• 13:46
  Pete Wright: Yes. Yeah. But the Mulsanne Strait has been broken up with chicanes. Right? So a a chicane is like a dog leg, and you see it.
• 13:54
  We we saw it a number of times in the last movie in Grand Prix.
• 13:58
  Andy Nelson: Well, as they're getting onto back onto the track here, isn't that wouldn't that be a dog leg?
• 14:03
  Pete Wright: Yeah. But a chicane in this case, and when you're talking about a chicane specifically, it's designed to slow down the race. So you'll see it in the more modern f one races where they're going in what you think is a straight line, and then they have to go, oh, left, right, and and everybody has to slow down. Because if they didn't have a chicane in there, they would they would reach excessive speeds that are extraordinary. And chicanes allow for more opportunities for overtaking, passing, sloppy driving.
• 14:33
  Like, it it really is it it allows you to showcase expertise in the driver ship of of these of these athletes. So now the race has changed a little bit that the the chicanes exist to slow down some of those really top speeds that were incredibly dangerous. And, I I mean, the safety concerns were just rudimentary by today's standards.
• 14:57
  Andy Nelson: He mentions the mall. Like, that's where he had his accent. Like, he came around. He says something about the mall. It was slow driver or something.
• 15:05
  What's the mall?
• 15:06
  Pete Wright: The mall the mall sign straights coming around
• 15:08
  Andy Nelson: to the mall. So they just that's just okay. The subtitles just called it the mall, like a mall.
• 15:13
  Pete Wright: Like and so Lots of shorthand. Lots of shorthand.
• 15:17
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. By the
• 15:18
  Pete Wright: The the other piece that we get in this movie, which I think we is is awesome. And, I mean, the the thing about the Le Mans, which is which makes it a spectacular race, is the fact that these drivers have to drive the transition from day to night and night to day, and rain to dry and dry to wet. Right? Like, that's what makes it an incredibly intense race. And I think I don't know why.
• 15:43
  I wish this movie allowed me to care more about it. There was something about it that this this should be the most intense part of the race, and it just felt like everyone was on a break.
• 15:56
  Andy Nelson: Well, yeah, it's it's this the the story of this production I mean, now might be the time to talk about that. So Yes. Back in '67, McQueen and John Sturgis announced this project that they were gonna do to together, in a racing film. It was very much something that McQueen was passionate about. We talked about passion projects in our member pre show chat before this.
• 16:22
  This was his passion project. He had John Sturgis on board 1967. It was called Day of the Champion. Just as a side note, I thought it was very interesting that it sounds like from the beginning, the story was to be a film about Le Mans, yet they had a deal with the Nurburgring, which is why in our last conversation about Grand Prix, that ended up being the thing that required John Frankenheimer to turn over all 27 reels of film that they had shot on the Nurburgring that they weren't allowed to use because Sturgis and McQueen had a deal with the Nurburgring that they get to use Nurburgring and feature it in their film. But it's in Le Mans.
• 17:03
  And so it's a very I don't I I that's a weird thing. I don't really understand what their deal was anyway.
• 17:07
  Pete Wright: Well, at some point, there must have been a conversation about making a film that was about racing and not exclusively Le Mans, because there's no other reason to go to the Nurburgring.
• 17:18
  Andy Nelson: It could have been that, as I recall, it's McQueen and the other driver that he's kind of the competitor with. I'm forgetting his name at the moment. But they mentioned or somebody mentions that their last big competition that they had where it was just like neck and neck. They were the two guys everyone was talking about. I thought that they said it was at the nerve wriggering.
• 17:41
  So it's entirely possible that we were going to see that race before we got to Le Mans, you know? And that would make sense because this film, John Sturgis, the the story goes, he wanted to make a very traditional Hollywood story. He wanted to make the sort of movie that we probably saw in Grand Prix. He wanted to have very conventional, we'd have relationships of the drivers. We'd have upbeat Hollywood ending and all of this sort of stuff.
• 18:12
  So I can see him going, let's put this backstory. We'll have that as part of the film. We'll film at the Nurburgring. Like, I can see that being possibly the reason for all this. McQueen is the one who said, no.
• 18:25
  I want this to feel like a racing documentary. I want very little dialogue. I want the cars to be the stars of the film, and I want this to feel like a European movie. You know, his he said his inspiration was Claude Lelouch's film, A Man and a Woman. This all led to this rift in production.
• 18:44
  Sturgis was on it for quite a while, but then finally, he just couldn't handle it anymore. And he said, he quotes, I am too old and too rich to put up with this crap. Cleaning up his quote. But basically, he's just like, it's not worth it to me to deal with this actor who clearly has a vision, but it's not what they're giving us money to make. And that ended up being the case because McQueen ended up having budget issues with the film, and he ended up losing, and this this was through his production company, Solar Productions.
• 19:16
  And he had partnered with another production company, CCP, I think is is who they were. Because of all the budget issues that he ran into, they ended up providing more money at the cost of his creative control. So he lost his creative control. They still ended up seeming to deliver essentially kind of the film that looks like what he was trying to make. But it really what we're getting here with this film really just boils down to McQueen's vision for what he saw this story needed to be.
• 19:48
  Pete Wright: It is a little bit of a bummer because Steve McQueen he did drive the Porsche nine one seven a little bit while while filming LeMond, but he was largely uninsured to to drive too much in the race. So he had to, seed that role to professional drivers. But it's really interesting since then. Patrick Dempsey has raced Le Mans three times. Michael Fassbender has raced Le Mans.
• 20:14
  And there's actually a documentary Road to Le Mans with, about Fastbender's drive with both both actors with Portia. I think it's really interesting, this connection that these actors have to wanting to to tackle this particular race. It's an interesting story, and it feels like Steve McQueen would have been the guy to do it of the era. In instead, he made a very slow movie about it.
• 20:40
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. Very slow. I mean, it's CCF, Cinema Center Films, not productions. They actually when the in their struggles with McQueen on all of this as the budget was exploding, they actually wanted to replace him.
• 20:56
  They were trying to replace him with Robert Redford. They were gonna shut down the film, but they finally, made a deal with him. He gave up his salary, his percentage of any profits, and his control of the film just so that he could get
• 21:07
  Trailer: it
• 21:07
  Andy Nelson: finished. Like, he wanted this story. And I I just I think that it's interesting because like you're saying, he knew how to drive. He was a racer. Like, in the end credits of the film says, our drivers, and it lists, like, I don't know how many total drivers there were.
• 21:27
  One of them was Steve McQueen. He was literally out there on the track doing his own driving. I'm I'm thrilled he had the passion to tell the story about Le Mans, but, and it's it like I said, it was a bold move to tell it this way. It just didn't work for me. Now I'm curious from your perspective as somebody who's into racing, how does the race play for you?
• 21:53
  Does any part of the actual race itself because I mean, if McQueen wanted it to feel like a race documentary, do you feel like you're getting that? Do you feel like you're getting a sense of the story or or not the story, but the story of the track as far as, like, who's in the lead, who's winning, all of that? And are you getting enough footage to kind of just kind of tell you that story in a way that's exciting?
• 22:18
  Pete Wright: So there are two parts to the answer of this question. The first one is the boring part, which is not really about the race because the race is, I think, not the fault of the film. I think the race is hard to to document because it's so long, and there are so many different conditions that you have to kind of embrace as you're as you're filming this twenty four hour monstrosity. I think it's just challenging to make that story compelling. That said, I've never seen anything quite as good at making me feel the experience of being in the car.
• 22:56
  That's one of the things that I think is fantastic. Like, I I I love these cars, but they're, you you know, it's it's really rare to get the camera inside of it to see, like, when he's flipping switches, the ply board that that, you know, these things are kind of glued together. They look so flashy and sporty, but inside, they're horrible. Right? They're they're just awful cages of death and incredibly claustrophobic.
• 23:25
  And that sensation, I got out of this movie. I felt like this is a a perspective I wanted, and and it delivered. I mean, I've got I still have a Le Mans GT 40 hanging on my wall of wonders here. Like, I'm a huge fan of these cars, and to be inside of one, I I thought was exhilarating. I I think if I do try to divorce myself from my own fandom, it's a tough watch.
• 23:52
  Like, I don't know that you'd get a a whole lot out of it. I mean, you aren't a fan. Did you feel some of the similar experiences?
• 24:00
  Andy Nelson: No. Like, I I mean and it was very weird because, like, the film starts, and they seem to make a big deal about number 25, like, pulling ahead of McQueen. And number I don't know who they were. They're white a white car. Number 25 is in the lead.
• 24:18
  And and that seems to go for a little while till he finally has to stop to do whatever. And then number 25 never comes into the picture again. I'm like, were was I supposed to pay attention to number 25? It was just odd. And then, you know, it seems to be like they're they're really kind of driving up the the relationship that he has.
• 24:38
  As I mentioned, kind of like there's this this
• 24:40
  Pete Wright: thing that
• 24:41
  Andy Nelson: he has with Staller is is the other guy's name, Eric Staller, who's driving for Ferrari, I think. And I don't know. I was confused with the cars because I'm like, I thought he was Porsche, but then everything says Golf, so I didn't know. But I think he's Porsche, but I
• 24:55
  Pete Wright: don't sponsor. Yeah.
• 24:57
  Andy Nelson: Okay.
• 24:58
  Pete Wright: Golf Oil. They they were driving Porsches.
• 25:01
  Andy Nelson: Okay. But I they have so many things all over the shirt. I don't know who's the sponsor. There's also Firestone.
• 25:06
  Pete Wright: Well, because remember, there's got,
• 25:07
  Andy Nelson: like, multiple He's got, like, you know, chronograph Heuer on his thing. Like, he's got so many things. I'm like and then I guess, like, does he even say Porsche anywhere? I don't think he has Porsche on his outfit. So I don't know.
• 25:18
  I it was like Yeah. It just it wasn't easy for me to tell. I just like blue, red, white, and then later
• 25:27
  Pete Wright: Well, it's tricky because there are multiple Porsche teams. Right? That's one of the things that's interesting because the golf Porsche team is different from, you know, the and and then the red is Ferrari. Like, that's the that's the one you that's easy to remember.
• 25:39
  Andy Nelson: I just thought they were all like see, that's like, that makes it even worse to have multiple Porsche teams. Like, how dumb is that? Like, I just thought they were all the one team. Like, I don't know. Because then they also have multiple cars.
• 25:52
  Pete Wright: So Well, the other thing is, Andy,
• 25:54
  they give you the announcer gives a tutorial at the beginning of the movie.
• 25:59
  Andy Nelson: But again, he's, like, half there, and sometimes he's being cut off by people talking. I'm like, do they care if I'm listening to this guy? I don't know. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, it was it was done like McQueen achieved very documentary style.
• 26:14
  It wasn't easy for me to, like, fully understand the race. If the idea was for race fans to appreciate and feel like, hey. I finally got to go to Le Mans because I watched this movie. Great. For people who aren't race fans to watch and go, okay.
• 26:30
  I know they're racing for twenty four hours, but I couldn't really figure out who's on whose team and what. They're all these shaggy haired guys wearing helmets and face coverings. I don't know. It made it difficult for me to figure out, like, how I was supposed to tell and and who I was supposed to care about.
• 26:47
  Pete Wright: We need to talk about the end. Because for a movie that is so incredibly understated, the end is just icing on an understated cake. I would like to know if you understood from what the movie gave you what happened in that final act.
• 27:06
  Andy Nelson: So, I mean, I thought I thought it was pretty easy to understand, honestly, by the time we got there. Like, you've got a Porsche no. Ferrari guy who's in the lead and seems to be way in the lead. And, you know, dude's ex machina, flat tire that puts him out of the race right at the end, just totally like, like our last movie where it's like, nope. You're pulled out.
• 27:29
  Somebody somebody died.
• 27:30
  Pete Wright: Black flag. Black flag.
• 27:32
  Andy Nelson: We're not gonna finish So I'm sorry. Flat flat tire. You're done. And so then it's down to our main guys. But the second place guy happens to also be a guy on Michael's team.
• 27:42
  That's Steve McQueen, who now is first place. And really, it now boils down to second and third place, Michael versus Eric, the the big duel that they've always apparently, everybody talks about how there's this this thing between the two of them, and they're both great drivers. And Eric, I think, won last time, and it's the two of them. And I you know, and then I think, as I recall, like, Michael pulled in front of him, like, right toward the end, and so is the two Porsches that come in. And so Porsche this Porsche team now, I'll say, ends up winning over Ferrari, over Eric.
• 28:22
  Yeah. That's my understanding of it.
• 28:24
  Pete Wright: And that is the subdued ending. Right? The fact that he that the chief crew the the Porsche team chief went in and said, I'm pulling this the other driver. I want you to drive.
• 28:35
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Right. I did mention that. Yeah.
• 28:37
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Even though your car is out, I want you to get in this other car, and I want you to drive because I want Porsche to I want our Porsche team to win this race explicitly saying, we need a one two finish. I don't wanna split finish. Like, we we have to win as a team and as drivers one two, And we're gonna put you I think you're the best person to do it because he they knew he had to make up time against the other Porsche team and Ferrari. And then you're right.
• 29:06
  Deus Ex Machina, like, things happen that happen to put these cars perfectly in place for a shootout for two and three. And then we get that sub that equally subdued bit after the the win as everybody's celebrating, and the team chief comes over and says to Michael, thank you. Right? And Delaney just nods. He's he's just present.
• 29:30
  He's just there. He is the he's the emotional equivalent of the rest of the movie present. And, you know, he secured the the Porsche one two win. He did the best he could, and he's he's, you know, recovered his, I don't know, you you say confidence, respect to the crew, all of that is implied that he's sort of back. And he did it by taking it away from the guy who said, could win this race earlier, and this is also gonna be my last race.
• 30:02
  Andy Nelson: Right. Yeah. That was, I think, Ritter. Right?
• 30:05
  Pete Wright: Yeah. That I mean, it's it's kinda heartbreaking.
• 30:08
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. It was it was brutal and but but also done in such a casual way that you just didn't care. Like, he's just like
• 30:16
  Pete Wright: This is the problem.
• 30:17
  Andy Nelson: Crappy crappy way to go out, but oh, well. And his wife's like, you're quitting anyway. And I'm just like, okay. So I don't really care. Like, it was so lacking in giving us any interest, like, purposely designed to not allow us to care for anybody.
• 30:36
  Very strange.
• 30:37
  Pete Wright: Very strange. I'm with you. I mean, I'm with you. I think I, as a result of all of that, my my fandom buoys my appreciation for this movie probably more than yours. So we'll see how that shakes out.
• 30:52
  But, but I I think we are in violent agreement.
• 30:55
  Andy Nelson: I mean, do you know much about Katzen as a director?
• 30:59
  Pete Wright: Well, I mean, apart from reading up on him for the show, but I was not a I'm not a real cat's head.
• 31:04
  Andy Nelson: He's, like, largely a TV guy. Like, TV movies, lots of TV episodes. He only has directed, I don't know, like, ten, eleven actual feature films. This is one of them. No.
• 31:18
  Sorry. He's only directed he's assistant directed a number of them. He's only directed one, two, three, four, eight, feature films. Not a lot. And I haven't seen any of the other ones.
• 31:29
  My sense of him, considering so much of his work is TV, is that this was kind of like a director for hire sort of job, much like we get now in, like, the Marvel properties or or any of these big properties where these these producers of massive franchises bring on kind of a lesser director who they can pretty much control as their puppet to get what they want. And so that was kind of my sense of Katzen as the director here. And, like, I would be curious, like, how much of the the interesting creative ways of, like, doing some of that storytelling in that direct the documentary style. He's not a documentary filmmaker from what I can tell. How much of that documentary style came from him versus from McQueen?
• 32:17
  How much of the way that the race was getting shot? The relationships, like the flashbacks, how much of the entire thing was really him, or was he just really coming in director for higher higher and yeah. It's it felt like more a Steve McQueen film, I think, than a Catson film.
• 32:36
  Pete Wright: Yeah. I think that's fair. I think that's fair. And and I don't know. I mean, I I directed a bunch of Mission Impossible and some Mannix and, like, a dirty dozen TV movie.
• 32:50
  I haven't haven't seen them. I wouldn't know them for cats and properties, but I I feel like I understand the vibe of what I might get. I to your point, though, this, as a passion project of Steve McQueen, this felt like a guy who just wanted to show people what it's like to drive, and he did his best to get there.
• 33:07
  Andy Nelson: Well, what is it like to be there? Like, I don't even feel like I mean, there were there were some moments of of, like, track footage where you get some interesting shots that I thought were pretty creative and cool, and it definitely felt like you're on the track. But between the two, I still felt like Grand Prix actually gave me a better feel of Yes. Being on the track than this film did.
• 33:27
  Pete Wright: Do you think that there's anything to the the fact that, like, we get a better feel for what it's like being on the track because we actually appreciate the characters more. Like, we're more connected to the to the people driving them.
• 33:39
  Andy Nelson: I don't think that's the case. I mean, I had a better sense of even the race in that film. Like, this one, like, they were just, you know, cars going on for hours. And so you're just kind of watching this going, okay. I I have a sense of these cars, you know, going around in circles on this track, but I don't really have much of a sense other than that.
• 34:00
  Other than them, we're getting, like, the accidents and things like that. But I don't know. I just I felt like it wasn't depicted as much in a way where an outsider could as easily kind of grasp the nitty gritty of the actual race.
• 34:15
  Pete Wright: Yeah. I I think it'll be interesting by comparison to look at this movie in hindsight after we've watched Ford v Ferrari again, because it's the same race. And the story of how important the story of these cars is to telling the story of the race. And that's one of the things that we miss in this movie to its to its detriment.
• 34:39
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, had you seen this before?
• 34:43
  Pete Wright: Or is
• 34:43
  Andy Nelson: this your first time watching this one?
• 34:44
  Pete Wright: First time.
• 34:45
  Andy Nelson: This was your first time. Gotcha. Yeah. I mean, even the relationship with Lisa, like, wasn't sure, you know, I I guess it was interesting that we had this sense that Steve and Lisa had, I don't know if they I don't know. Because I can't remember who Belgetti was racing for, her husband.
• 35:06
  Was he the same company, the same team, or was he a different team with him when he had that accident? That's a great
• 35:14
  Pete Wright: question. Was he the Portia Belghetti team? Was he Portia?
• 35:22
  Andy Nelson: See, I yeah. I don't remember. I can't remember. I think was raining in that flashback, and so I can't remember. And it was night, and so I don't remember I don't remember seeing the cars enough.
• 35:32
  It's it's all shot kind of in such an artistic way. Like, the name Belghetti in flames, number 18, like things that you're but it's not really giving me like Porsche, Ferrari. Like, I'm not getting stuff that really helped me. So I don't know what their relationship was, but there definitely is now some form of a relationship. Not a relationship like even friendship.
• 35:54
  It's or or romantic or anything. It's just somebody who's they're both trying to deal with the fact that her husband is dead because of this situation that he had been in with him. And I imagine that's difficult, and it's interesting in the way that they kind of work through it over the course of the film. Like, there are moments that I like with these characters, like, after I don't know. There's another driver who's injured, who's the one who flies off the track and crashes through the sign.
• 36:26
  And interesting, very strange production, like, filming decision as he's running from the car. It's slow motion, but then it's like they're ramping the speed of his run where it's like, real fast, slow. Real fast, slow. Real fast. Like, is it and so his body is doing this, like, weird herky jerky thing as he's trying to run away from this explosion, and then the car blows up, and he's really injured.
• 36:54
  Were we meant to think that there is some also relationship with him? Because she seemed really distraught about him. She's at the hospital for him, happens to also see Michael while he's there, And then she leaves, and all the reporters are like, oh, you know, talking to her, like, we need to know what's going on with you and this guy. And that's when Michael comes out and kind of rescues her from the press and stuff. But I was like, was there a relationship there?
• 37:18
  Like, again, there I I because there was that point where he where where McQueen notices her in the crowd, and then that other driver notices him noticing her. And I'm like, are oh, is there a triangle thing here going on? Like, it was so thin in how they gave us any of this that I just I had
• 37:39
  Trailer: no idea. I didn't know what I was supposed to think with any of this.
• 37:43
  Pete Wright: Okay. Okay. I think you're right. I think you're right. I don't think it gives us enough to know.
• 37:49
  My impression was that she and Michael had a relationship, but she was currently in a relationship with the driver who was the cool guy who didn't look at the explosion.
• 37:59
  Andy Nelson: You wait. So you when did he she have a relationship with Michael? Years ago. Before Balgetti? Yeah.
• 38:07
  Okay. So wow. Well, okay. You're really taking that into a whole thing that this film doesn't give you. So
• 38:14
  Pete Wright: No. It doesn't. That's that's yeah. There's Yeah. It's all vibes.
• 38:18
  Like, it's it's it's all vibes.
• 38:21
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. I just it's well, that's the thing. Like, the vibes, there are some vibes there, but it's so thinly portrayed that it's really, like, you can kind of go in all sorts of different directions with it. Like, it just doesn't spell it out for you at all.
• 38:36
  Pete Wright: To the point where, I mean, it reportedly, they started production on this thing with no script. They started shooting Right. With no script. That's it feels you feel it. It feels like there was no plan.
• 38:48
  Andy Nelson: Right. Right. Yeah. Limiting dialogue, very little script. You just really get a sense of this is this.
• 38:55
  We're just here to film a race, and that, McQueen was forced to include actual people and some some lines of dialogue. Yeah. Wow. Alright.
• 39:07
  Pete Wright: This is this is an auteurs racing movie, for sure.
• 39:11
  Andy Nelson: It is. Any other production elements? I mean, there was definitely some freeze frames. The heartbeat thing at the beginning was a little too much for me as we're getting, like, heartbeat. Like, a slow heartbeat as we're cutting as he's in his car getting ready to for the the green light.
• 39:26
  And then it starts going like, frame rate frame rate. Like, I'm like, okay. It was interesting for a minute, and you just took it too far. Like, I it was like, is this Katzen? I don't know who took I don't know who is Katzen or McQueen, but it was just like, this was too much.
• 39:40
  Too much again.
• 39:42
  Pete Wright: I it was too much. The editing, I found I found distracting. I know I get what they're trying to do, but what they did was just make me wanna look away and close my eyes. It was it was dizzying. There were there were places where they used the sort of the the sound of the racing car and the the flyby, you know, the the whip pan of the camera following, you know, and then it would cut to a car going the other way, and they would go back and forth seven, ten times as cars were.
• 40:10
  Andy Nelson: Every single car. Oh my god.
• 40:12
  Pete Wright: Single car. And I found that absolutely dizzying. I could not stand it.
• 40:19
  Andy Nelson: So Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, oh, let's film a tennis match that way. Cut.
• 40:24
  Cut. Cut. It's like, good
• 40:25
  Trailer: god. Yeah.
• 40:26
  Pete Wright: But let's make sure we we break the 80 degree rule every shot. Like, we'll just switch sides of the court every time because cars need to go the other way too. That I I really did not care for. I most of the film, I really enjoy the sounds of the race itself. I think they use the sounds of the race inside the car.
• 40:45
  There's a there's a moment where McQueen gets in the car, the crowd is going crazy, and the car door closes. I love this moment in the movie. Like, I really loved it because the sound of the world nearly goes away, but not completely. And and I felt like I was in the car with him. I thought they did that really, really well.
• 41:09
  Those car doors, there's nothing to them. I don't think they would have actually muted the sound as much as they do in the movie, but I like the feeling of it that they were that they were going for.
• 41:22
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. No. I mean, it has its it has its interesting moments, but as an actual interesting film, I it did not work for
• 41:30
  Trailer: me.
• 41:31
  Pete Wright: McQueen reportedly said, I'm not sure if this is a film about racing or a race that happens to be filmed. I I I'm leaning toward the latter, but with no announcer telling you what's happening. And so you just have to feel it.
• 41:48
  Andy Nelson: It did make me wonder, like, is this announcer actually at Le Mans, like, describing for the crowd all of this, or did they add this for the film? Because I my hunch is it's it's design it was actually something that was at Le Mans because I was like, McQueen doesn't wanna give us any clues about anything.
• 42:06
  Pete Wright: Right. That's a good point. That's a really good point.
• 42:10
  Andy Nelson: Ay yi yi.
• 42:11
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Alright.
• 42:12
  Andy Nelson: Alright. Any other points? No. Alright. Well, we'll be right back, but first, our credits.
• 42:31
  Pete Wright: The next reel is a production of True Story FM, engineering by Andy Nelson, music by Gilad Benomram, Ichalix, Ian Post, Oriole Novella, and Eli Kaplan. Andy usually finds all the stats for the awards and numbers at d-numbers.com, box office mojo Com, I m d b Com, and wikipedia.org. Find the show at truestory.fm. And if your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show. Some film enthusiasts merely watch movies.
• 43:18
  Others log them. These are the diehards, the spreadsheet keepers, the stats junkies, the ones who know exactly how many films they've watched this year and how many of them starred Mads Mikkelsen in a sweater. They live by a code. They track. They rate.
• 43:41
  They review. They debate whether a heart emoji counts as a coherent critical stance. It does. At the center of their cinematic garage, letterboxed. For the true competitors, there's pro, offering zero ads, personalized stats, streaming filters, and enough data visualization to make a Swiss race engineer weep with joy.
• 44:08
  Support the show and upgrade your ride at the NextReal.com/letterboxed. By using that link, you'll save 20% on your upgrade, and it works for renewals as well. Because in the race for cinematic clarity, it's not just how fast you watch, it's how well you remember what the hell you watched on Tuesday March ago. TheNextReal.com/Letterboxd. We'll see you in the pit.
• 44:43
  Alright. Andy, sequels and remakes? Is there a is there a part two? I think there's a part two. Please tell me there's a Le Monde.
• 44:55
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. I mean, you can almost say the prequel is for v Ferrari since it takes place, I think, four years before this one does. But, no, there is a, you know, there is a documentary, and actually, I'd be curious to know what you would think of this. I'll I'll never watch it. But Steve McQueen, the man and Le Mans, twenty fifteen, it really is it goes into his his pursuit to to, make this film.
• 45:19
  So you're really kind of getting a sense of his passion in this project. A lot of interviews with all the people involved. I imagine for people who are curious about the story of how it went from Day of the Champion with John Sturgis at the helm to this, I think people might enjoy that. So anyway, have you seen that? Have you is that on your watch list?
• 45:39
  Pete Wright: Yep. It is, actually, as of this movie. But I have not watched it yet, so maybe I'll knock it out this week.
• 45:47
  Andy Nelson: There you go. You'll have to let me know.
• 45:49
  Pete Wright: How to do it award season?
• 45:50
  Andy Nelson: This was not a big awards film. It had one nomination at the Golden Globes for best original score by Michel Legrand. Very period score. I often like Michel Legrand and often find him very period and have a hard time with. This is one of those films with the score I had a hard time with.
• 46:09
  It was so period. I just I I couldn't get into the score at all. It didn't help me. It lost to Shaft. Very fitting loss.
• 46:16
  Pete Wright: That is a fitting Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Alright. How to do at the box office?
• 46:21
  Did it make any money?
• 46:28
  Andy Nelson: Well, for this Sturgis, Catson, McQueen vehicle, they had a budget of about 7,600,000.0 or 59,400,000.0 in today's dollars. The movie opened 06/23/1971 and, unfortunately, could not find its audience. It's estimated to have earned around 5 and a half million or 43,000,000 in today's dollars. That lands the film with an adjusted loss per finished minute of about a hundred $55,000. Its reception led to the production company, McQueen Solar Productions, declaring bankruptcy.
• 46:57
  Luckily, McQueen's passion project gained a cult following and is now considered a classic of the genre by people who care. I don't I don't consider it a classic of the genre. No. Thank you.
• 47:11
  Pete Wright: Okay. You're you're pretty hardcore. I liked the movie for what it was. It's not it it's not for everybody.
• 47:19
  Andy Nelson: It works better for me when I do think of it in that Fredrik Weisman documentary sense of, like, here's a race, and we're just gonna kind of, like, capture what it's like to have this race. Although, I also feel like in a Fredrik Weisman film, I actually have a better understanding of this, of the world. I I think it's a lot of things here that just, are creative, and I like that McQueen is doing something unique and interesting, and he had a a desire to tell it in a very particular way. It doesn't work for me, but I appreciate that there are people out there it works for.
• 47:54
  Pete Wright: It's a big swing. It's a big swing.
• 47:56
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Alright. We'll be right back for our ratings. But first, here's the trailer for next week's movie, Ron Howard's two thousand thirteen film, Rush.
• 48:10
  Trailer: The closer you are to death, the more alive you feel. You're James, aren't you? Yes. Who's that? It's Niki Lauda.
• 48:21
  He's just been signed by Ferrari. This is a nobody. Look at the way he's driving like an old man.
• 48:28
  Andy Nelson: Right now with zero incentive, why would I drive fast?
• 48:30
  Trailer: Because I'm asking you to. This is an incredible battle between these two great drivers.
• 48:44
  Andy Nelson: Next time, I'll have you.
• 48:45
  Trailer: Mortrans, you're just a party guy. That's why everybody likes you. Yes. I know I'm terrible. No.
• 48:50
  You're not terrible. You're just who you are at this point in your life. To be a champion, it takes more than just being quick. You have to really believe it. I've been waiting for this my whole life.
• 49:01
  I can beat this guy. Trust me. He's consistent. Dependable. Will he put his life on the line the day that really matters?
• 49:07
  Welcome to the racing grudge match of the decade. World champion Nikki Lauda trapped in a searing inferno of 800 plus degrees. Talk to me, James. Don't go to men who are willing to kill themselves driving in circles looking for normality. And
• 49:33
  what did your wife say when she saw your face?
• 49:35
  She said, you don't need the face to drive. You just need the right foot. I feel responsible for what happened. Watching you win those races while I was fighting for my life, you were equally responsible for getting me back in the car. Forty two days after his near fatal accident, Nikki Lauda will race here today.
• 49:58
  More powerful than the fear of death is the will to win.
• 50:22
  Andy Nelson: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the twenty four hours of Le Mans, the world's oldest active endurance racing event. Teams from around the globe have gathered here to test their mettle, to push themselves and their machines to the limit in a grueling twenty four hour race. But we're not just here to talk about the race. We're here to talk about endurance of a different kind, the endurance of passion, of dedication, of a love for something greater than yourself. We're here to talk about the next For the uninitiated, the next reel is a film podcast that goes the distance.
• 50:52
  They're not just interested in the flashy, the trendy, the Here Today, Gone Tomorrow. They're in for the long haul, exploring films from every corner of the globe and every era of cinematic history. And just like the teams here at Le Mans, they're not in it alone. They've built a community of film lovers, a pit crew of passionate individuals who come together to share their knowledge, their insights, and their love for the art of film. But to keep it going, to keep exploring, to keep pushing the boundaries, they need your support.
• 51:21
  And that's where the membership comes in. Think of it like a sponsorship. By becoming a member of the next reel, you're not just getting access to bonus content and ad free episodes. You're investing in the future of film discussion. You're ensuring that this team can keep going, keep pushing, keep exploring the vast and exciting world of cinema.
• 51:38
  And the benefits? They're like a perfectly tuned engine. Monthly bonus episodes that dive deep into the nitty gritty of filmmaking. Early access to each new episode so you can be part of the conversation as it's happening. And, of course, add free versions of every episode so you can enjoy the ride without any interruptions.
• 51:55
  So as we watch these teams battle it out over the next twenty four hours, ask yourself, what are you passionate about? What drives you? And are you willing to go the distance to support it? If the answer is film, if the answer is a community of like minded individuals, if the answer is the next real film podcast, then we invite you to join the team. Go to truestory.fm/join and become a member.
• 52:19
  Become a sponsor of this incredible journey through the world of cinema because in the end, it's not just about the destination, it's about the ride. And with the next reel, it's a ride you won't want to miss.
• 52:33
  Pete Wright: Letterboxd, Andy. So how bad is it?
• 52:41
  Andy Nelson: I really been debating on this, like, because I I was like, when is this thing going to end? Kill me. Kill me. Put me on the track and drive over me. I hated it, man.
• 52:51
  But I loved I loved some of like, I really did appreciate that they tried this documentary style. Like, I appreciate what they did. It didn't work for me. I'm like, is it one star? Is it two stars?
• 53:01
  I'm gonna just say one because I just it I felt misery while I worked through this one. This is a tough one for me.
• 53:10
  Pete Wright: I think that if there is a purpose, if there's someone who comes to my house and says, hey, Pete, Do you have any old footage of Le Monde from 1970? I'll say, you bet. Let's go watch Le Monde from 1970. But I don't think I'm gonna come back to this movie very often. I'm gonna give it three stars.
• 53:33
  No heart.
• 53:35
  Andy Nelson: Wow. Okay.
• 53:35
  Pete Wright: I I love what it tried to do. I love my experience as a fan in some of the areas of the film. As a movie, it doesn't give me a whole lot. Maybe three stars too high, but no heart. I feel like I'm sending a signal.
• 53:51
  Andy Nelson: Alright. Send that signal. The no heart signal.
• 53:54
  Pete Wright: You don't feel like it's enough of the no heart signal.
• 53:57
  Andy Nelson: No. But I mean, here's the thing. I get it. It's for some people. Like, some people are gonna pull more out of this than I did.
• 54:03
  Like, it's just like, for me, I'm not a race fan, so just watching these cars, I'm just like, okay. I don't know what hour I'm in. I don't know if I should be caring about any of this anymore. Like, I just it was really not it just didn't play well. So, yeah, I again, I appreciate that some people will get a lot more out of this than me.
• 54:24
  It just wasn't my thing. So there it is. That will average to two stars, no heart, over on our account on Letterbox, which is at the next reel. You'll find me there at Soda Creek Film, and you can find Pete there at Pete Wright. So what did you think about Lamont?
• 54:39
  We would certainly love to hear your thoughts on this one. Hop into the ShowTalk channel over in our Discord community where we will be talking about the movie this week.
• 54:47
  Pete Wright: When the movie ends.
• 54:48
  Andy Nelson: Our conversation begins.
• 55:05
  Pete Wright: Letterbox giveth, Andrew.
• 55:07
  Andy Nelson: As Letterboxd always doeth.
• 55:09
  Pete Wright: Alright. This was a I imagine was an easy search for you. Find the find the dunkiest of dunks and go for it. But if you don't mind, mine has sound effects. So I'd like to get this out early.
• 55:24
  Andy Nelson: Yeah, please.
• 55:25
  Pete Wright: Alright. This is from Graham. Three and a half stars. Put it there. That's the spot.
• 55:31
  Perfect lines. It's getting wet. Faster. Faster. Hear the screams?
• 55:36
  It's over already? The gulf between uncomfortable periods of intense silence and the raging metallic soundtrack of a Porsche nine one seven powered sex on wheels flat 12 makes the knees tremble. Steve McQueen's not bad either. This is the kind of review I expect from this movie. This is these are car people.
• 55:58
  Yeah. Alright. What do you got?
• 56:00
  Andy Nelson: Well, my review is, by Patrick Willems, who had this to say, I wonder how mad Steve McQueen, a guy famously obsessed with car racing was that he passed on Grand Prix and then spent five years trying to make his own racing movie. And then he finally made it, and none of the racing scenes are as good as the ones in Grand Prix. But to your point, like, the two comments are clearly by people who are car fans because they are totally angry at his comment. And the fact that, you know, no. No.
• 56:32
  No. The this is the one with the good racing scenes. And I'm like, okay. Whatever you say, but I don't agree.
• 56:40
  Pete Wright: Yeah. I think I'd I'm I struggle with that more and more, especially in the context of of I think Lamont needs a story. I think the race itself is is grueling if you're a part of it, and it's exciting if you win it. And there's not a lot to to make a movie out of without some sort of a story. Just the race isn't enough.
• 57:03
  That's that's the thing.
• 57:05
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. It's a it's an interesting very interesting, like, flip from what we had last week where it was just too much story and, like, too much melodrama. We're like, oh my god. Just give me the race. And now we see they gave us the race.
• 57:18
  We're like, I kinda want some story too. There has to be a balance, you know, and that's what we that's what we don't have between these two films.
• 57:26
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Thanks, Letterboxd.