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Myths of Karbala (Ft Sayed Mahdi Modarresi) · After Maghrib 🌙

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All the Bilay I'm going to shut down Naina Rajem's Mila Ha
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Rahman Rahim Other Mulay Jorma or Ajoora Combe Masa Baha.
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There's a lot for us to reflect on.
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We must continue the message of mom Hussein and start to
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implement some some of the lessons we learned into our
0:37
daytoday lives between now and of course Adebayan which is fast
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approaching coming to love. We've had a lot of Majalis and
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now is the chance really for us to take what we have learned and
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move forward today. And Charlotte, we have a very
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interesting discussion with of course a very special guest.
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But before we get there, as always, I'd like to introduce my
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dear cohost, said Alislamo Anekum. welcome to the law.
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How are you keeping saying? Hamdula, you know, as you you
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mentioned that you know it's been post majalis and I've and
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I've been blessed to attend every single night.
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But this year was a bit different.
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Like made it my commitment to take my daughters with me to
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every measure. Less than anything for saying
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the environment possible. So I had a very nice, fine, you
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know, sharing Husseini vibes. I can use that with the family
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this year. Absolutely, yeah.
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And of course, there's so many Magellans online, so much
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content to consume. And a lot of us will walk away
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from these nights with questions, in some cases
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misconceptions. And I think it's very important
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for us to discuss this. In doing so in Charlotte, we've
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got the dear respected, said Methyl Madarasi with Aslam.
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Alec Hussein, thank you very much for joining us.
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Pleasure to be here, of course many of us know and we we
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remember back in 2009 where of course you founded a little bit
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TV and now many years later we are here at Hamdaland still able
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to to serve. How firstly, has your stay been
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in London? How's the community been for
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you? First of all, as far as the
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founding of the of the channel is concerned, it couldn't have
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happened without the sincere and dedicated team that came
2:23
together put in incredible effort.
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I mean, remember this is 2009, which means that TV channels
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devoted to the Arab 8 and their school and Toshay, you were
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unheard of. And so making this happen,
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getting it off the ground, was a monumental task.
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And so I think it's an injustice to say that I founded the
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channel. It was a group of people who
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came together and put in incredible hours, as you do now,
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and made it happen. As far as London is concerned
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and the community, it's beautiful really, I mean.
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It's it's not, it's nothing like any other place in the world in
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terms of the sheer numbers. And of course, when you have a
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community that's this big, you also end up finding individuals
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who are, you know, they, they remind you of of what it's like
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to be a true Shia, a true follower of the other Bate.
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It has its challenges. No doubt there are emerging
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threats that we're facing, but as a community it's wonderful,
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makes us feel proud. You should have the love said.
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Of course we first here on what you mentioned about Little Bit
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TV. It's it's, it's Marshall Love.
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The founding of the channel and the establishment of the
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channels brought so many people together, changed so many lives
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and we hear these stories day in and day out.
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It's brought the three of us in terms of Sid Mushtaba said, Ali
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and myself together and handled are so many others as well.
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And I think a big part of why Adil BTV has such an important
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role to plays because there are a lot of misconceptions that
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surround to share your, as you mentioned Shia ISM and Islam in
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general. And in these days, post Ashra, a
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lot of the questions start to emerge about the mission of Imam
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Hussein Ali Salaam and why he did what he did.
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Perhaps inshallah, a good place to start is to clarify a lot of
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the the misconceptions, misrepresentations that maybe
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others from other schools of thought.
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But forward that Alim Ali Salam traveled with the intention to
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regain Khalafa for himself. This is something we see a lot
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online, the comments on our posts and they're sort of
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engagement we have. How would we address that when
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we're faced with this? Address the notion that imam
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fought for solely a political gain.
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I think there have been claims not just in the broader context,
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but also Shia researchers and historians have tried to make
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sense of Aishwarya, and I think something we need to keep in
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mind is that Aishwarya is such a.
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A life altering event in human history that trying to process
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it has taken the better part of the last 14 centuries.
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It is not a small event that you can, you know, quickly analyze
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and then dismiss as one thing or the other.
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It's it's made. The most brilliant minds
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struggle to make sense of why Imam Hussein would do such a
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thing. Take his family.
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His children. The most vulnerable members of
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the Imam's household accompanied him.
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And it's specifically that point which negates the entire idea
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that Imam Hussein was there trying to.
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Secure some political position for himself because, you know,
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even Western scholars have talked about this.
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Wilfred Matalong, who recently passed away, foremost expert on
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the history of Islam post the passing of the Holy Prophet.
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He says this. He's like, it doesn't make
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sense. If your Mama Hussein was there
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trying to fight a political battle, then he would take along
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with him. People who were loyal to him.
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There were individuals, you know, across the Muslim world
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who would have lent their support.
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It had the Imam asked them, for instance, after Emma.
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This is an interesting one actually, because after Emma was
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a companion of the Imam before him, he was close to Imam Hassan
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and the Commander of the Faithful and the Imam encounters
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him on his way toward Kufa, that Emma was leaving Kufa going back
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to his. Village and to his tribe.
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So the Imam invites him to join him.
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The interesting part is that the Rama says to him, Why would you?
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Would you go to Kufa accompanied just by a handful of your close
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companions and your family members, when in fact, if you
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give me a chance, if you come along with me, I can take you
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back to my tribe and I have 20,000 people who are ready to
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lay their lives for you. And he may have been correct in
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that assessment that, you know, maybe his tribe would in fact
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join him because after all, he was the chief of his tribe.
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Had this been a political power struggle, the imam would have
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taken a completely different route.
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The imam would have tried to recruit and train actual
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soldiers who would go with him. He probably wouldn't go to Kufa.
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He would go somewhere else, perhaps Yemen or some other part
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of the Muslim nation. Where there were people who were
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more sympathetic to the imam, but for him to take his family
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and his children because he's trying to fight some, you know,
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political battle to attain some kind of office within the
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Islamic caliphate, it just doesn't add up.
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That's number one. Number two, if you look at the
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Imam's own statements, I mean, how do you know what the Imam's
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objectives are? Unless you hear what he has to
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say about it, and the imam openly and clearly stated on
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numerous occasions that the tyrant Yazid IS is someone who
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represents the very antithesis of the moral example that Islam
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would would want a leader to possess.
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He is someone who's a drunkard. He's incestuous.
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He's. Promiscuous.
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He is filthy down to the very core.
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And what I'm trying to do is I'm not out looking for an adventure
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lemma esheran wala battaran when nama haresh to little belly es
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lafio metejedi. I'm intent on reforming the
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nation of my grandfather. And and if that means that the
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imam would have to go and fight the tyrant again, you can, you
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can define that as a political struggle because you're fighting
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the the head of the pyramid, you're fighting the person who's
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in charge, the ruler of the time.
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But the Imams objectives were certainly not political
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interesting. Yeah, it's not political.
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And you're right and and I think we see that in the time where
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when Imam Hussein wanted to make his way towards Kufa.
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Wasn't for power. I mean, history shows us that he
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wanted to answer the call of those in Koofa, for example.
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But this is a question I want to ask when it comes to this point,
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say, is that we always, you know, have this accusation
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thrown us and sometimes we don't know how to answer it.
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Nothing's important that we clarify this today for everyone
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listening. And I say it's important.
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Why? Because a lot of our comments
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and our posts, they always say the sheer I killed the Imam
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Hussein. If people in Koofa were the
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lovers of Imam Hussein who claim to love.
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To claim to follow the path of Muhammad Rasul Alassa Lala
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Hawali Hawali was selling. Why would they ask Imam and
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Hussein to come and then betray him and where they she are?
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So that's as you said, it's a very old trope that's been
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leveled against the she. She still goes on if you see our
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socials when it comes to our podcast.
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Now, now is the high time for them, yeah.
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Yeah, I mean, my point is it's not some trailblazing new
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discovery. It's been around since the time
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of the Umayya dynasty and something we need to understand
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that a lot of us understand. But I think the broader Muslim
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community needs to appreciate the fact that when you're
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looking at Benny Omeno, when you're looking at Yazid and his
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successors, the Hulafa, these are people who had committed.
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An egregious, grievous, heinous crime killing the son of Rasul
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Allah. And so it's like someone who's
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just beaten his wife. If you take that person to
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court, what are they going to say their defense is probably
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going to be, especially if they're caught in the act.
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They'll probably try to undermine it.
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They'll say things like, oh, you know, you know, I didn't really
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beat her. It was just an argument.
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We were, we were having fun before and then it kind of
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escalated into an argument. And then?
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You know, she pushed me and I pushed her back and and you
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know, I still love her. I don't have a problem with her.
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And it's probably her brother, that guy, he's he's always had
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it, had it for me and things like that.
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That's basically what Benny Omeo were trying to do.
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On the one hand, they created this story, this fantasy that
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Imam Hussein hadn't been killed. Imam Hussein in fact ascended to
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the heavens just like Jesus did. So this was one narrative that
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they tried to push. Which is why our traditions,
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when you look at the ziarat of the other Bate, they're very
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emphatic about the fact that Imam Hussein was killed because
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they're trying to respond to this fantasy.
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Ashadu and naka potilta, Walamtamut, You were killed.
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I bear witness that you were killed.
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Why would you say that? Of course he was killed, right?
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There's no question. But no, back then, there was
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this misconception that the imam was never killed.
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He ascended to the heavens. He was raised up to God.
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A Shadow and Naka Hotel twalamtamut.
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But you never died, right? A shadow And Nahada Masra al
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Bedenik. I bear witness that this is
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where your body was brought to an end, that you were killed on
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this land, right? But your spirit and your your
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your memory and your legacy exudes with life, and it's what
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gives everything else. It's life.
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So that's one narrative that they tried to push.
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The other narrative was. That Yazid wasn't responsible,
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so Yazid himself. In fact, that was the first
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thing that he declared. After the sermon of ladies Ainab
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Aliyah Salaam and Imami Sajad, the tables were turned right.
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We have very specific reports about about how, number one,
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when ladies Ainab spoke, everyone went quiet.
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Everyone was silenced, including the bells around the necks of
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the animals. In other words, there was such a
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deafening silence. Everyone was focused on Lady
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Zainab, on what she had to say, and her sermon is famous for
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completely exposing and disrobing Yazid and his tyranny.
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Then Imam Sajad Ali Assalam comes and he delivers such a
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fiery sermon in the presence of this, this, this vicious
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Pharaoh. That ultimately led to everyone
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bursting into tears. Everyone was crying at the end
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of the sermon of Imam Assadjad, right when he started saying
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that, you know, I am the son of the one who was slaughtered in
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broad daylight. I was the one who was deprived
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of water. I was the one who was left
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without clothes on the plains of Karbala.
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I was this and that. And everybody was crying at the
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end. Crying in the sense that they're
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sympathizing with Imam Husain. And obviously, taking a stance
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against Yazid, there was obviously a sense of guilt.
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But it it was clear that the tables had turned.
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Everyone knew who was responsible for this crime and
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who the victim was. The first thing Yazid does is,
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he says. But I didn't do it.
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It was Obey de la Evans. Yet I never.
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I asked him to apprehend Imam Hussein and bring him to me so
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that we could negotiate. Right.
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It was never, there were never any instructions for him to kill
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the imam. And so not only this, but he
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went a step further. He said, you know what?
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Imam Hussein is related to me, right?
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We're Benny Omeyer there, Benny Hashem.
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Our family trees meet at some point.
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And so I have to be consoled now.
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And so he organized a medullist for three days and invited all
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the top officials as well as the general public to come and offer
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condolences to him. He said.
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Hada Shahid horesh atti to Horesh.
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Were from the same tribe, so that was another narrative.
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The other more persistent narrative is the one that you
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alluded to, which is that you know what?
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If anybody killed him, it was the Shia.
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But here are a few questions to think about #1.
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The army of Sham, were they also Shia right on the 9th of
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Muharram? The point of no return if we
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could use that expression for Imam Al Hussein and his
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companions and his camp. Was the 9th of Muharram when his
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camp was completely sealed off and the and reinforcements
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joined Omar bin Saad from Sham? If we say that the people of
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people of Kufa were Shia, are we going to make the same claim
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about the people of Sham? Absolutely not.
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The people of Sham were brainwashed for decades by Moya
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and and Benny Omega. So that's number one.
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Number two. The actual individuals who
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participated in the killing of Imam Al Hussein.
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Ali has Saddam right. You hear names like Shabbat,
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Abdel, Joshan, you hear Sinan, Ibananas, you hear Shabbat,
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Abdel, Rabbi. These individuals, anyone who
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reads their background and their story knows for a fact that they
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were never Shia Shabbat. Abdel Rabbi participated in some
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of the Wars of Emerald Mohmanin. Sure, but that's not because he
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believed in the Imam, because what's the definition of a Shia?
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The definition of a Shia is someone who believes that the
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prophet left successors who are equal in rank with the Quran and
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who are proofs of God. Their every word is a divine
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injunction. Imam on masumon muftadatar his.
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Commandments are obligatory, they're not optional.
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Whatever they say, it's like the Prophet commanding you to do
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something. Would someone like that kill an
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Imam? Would someone like that?
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Even, I don't know, turn their back to the Imam, let alone harm
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him. It doesn't add up, It makes
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absolutely no sense. And these individuals that I
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mentioned, they might have been at some point or another with
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Imam Ali, but they were also with Imam Ali's enemies.
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They were also with Benny Omeya. In other words, these were
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opportunistic impostors. These were individuals who were
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looking to get a piece of the cake.
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And so if it meant joining Imam Ali today, then they would do
18:14
that. If it meant switching sides to
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someone else, they would do that as well.
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So to claim that the people of Kufa or those who killed Omar
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Hussein were all Shia is just preposterous.
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It's absurd. And the leaders think about the
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fact that after Amir Al Muhmininin, who was the governor
18:32
of Kufa. Who did you have there?
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Who was in charge? Because ultimately, whoever's in
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charge is the one who pushes a certain narrative and tries to,
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you know, brainwash and manipulate the masses to their
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advantage. You had Ziada bin ABI, who's
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certainly not a Shia, right? Obey Dilla Heben Ziad, who was
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in Basra, certainly not a Shia. People of this calibre ruled
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over the city. And so while Imam Ali was the
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leader of the Muslim nation and Kufa was his capital city.
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It by number means suggests that everyone in Kulfa was a Shia.
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The actual Shia of Imam Ali were either imprisoned, killed prior
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to the day of Ashwara like Mehta Matamma right.
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Mukhtar was in prison and others also joined them.
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Imam Hussein Ali Assam like Habib Namoba had a Muslim Nawaz
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JA and others. Interesting say of course after
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Ashwara we we reflect on the day, on on the makta that we
19:28
hear. And of course if you're tuning
19:30
into different centers and different communities, you'll
19:32
hear different approaches to the MacArthur literature in the way
19:37
it's presented and read as well. I have a kind of two pronged
19:41
question. The first being after so many
19:43
years, you know we're talking thirteen 1400 years.
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How can we firstly be sure that the MacArthur literature we read
19:51
is accurate and is their preference?
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And #2 are then common misconceptions that you hear
19:57
from from your if you with respect from your end on the
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member that you hear across the world from different communities
20:03
which are commonly stated having taken place on the Mokhtal which
20:07
actually didn't happen or didn't take place.
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Can I just as a follow up to the previous question, I wanted to
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add a couple of points. The 1st is OK.
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They say that the Shiite killed Imam Hussain back in the day.
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But today, who are the true followers of Imam Hussein?
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The ones that honor Imam Hussein, the ones that
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commemorate his tragedy, the ones that visit his shrine.
20:30
Right? I once said to a high-ranking
20:34
official in a particular Muslim country, I won't mention it, but
20:38
we got into this debate over Yazid and whether he was
20:41
exonerated and whatnot. And I said to him, first of all,
20:44
you're a security official, you know nothing about these things.
20:46
You're not a historian, you're not a theologian.
20:49
So don't you know, dip your toe into something that is way
20:53
outside your field of expertise? The second thing is, I said,
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when it comes to Imam Hussein, is he just someone that's
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special to us? Do you care about Imam Hussein?
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Do you care about the fact that this was the Prophet's grandson?
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If you claim that you do and that you love him more than we
21:10
do, fine. Come and visit Imam Hussein.
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We invite every Muslim, regardless of affiliation,
21:16
regardless of which sect they belong to, come and visit Imam
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Hussain. Honor him the way we do.
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In Karbala during Ziara to Erbarine, a billion meals are
21:26
given out for free in honor of Imam Hussain.
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A billion. This is mind boggling.
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Nothing like this happens anywhere in the world.
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It's never happened before. We do that and we're not, you
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know, we're not claiming that. You know, somehow we're we're
21:45
proud of this or anything. If you ask any of the people who
21:48
serve Imamir Hussain and his pilgrims, they'll say we're just
21:51
happy that Imamir Hussain would accept us as slaves, as
21:56
servants, right. So that's point #1.
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The other thing is, look, Imamir Hussain himself said on the day
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of Ashura. Yashi Atta Ali Abhisovyan
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Illemiakun Lakumdine Wokun Tumlata Hafun El Mahat Fakunno,
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Ahraran, Vidun Yakum, all followers of Al ABI Sofian.
22:15
Had they been Shia, they would have said no, no, no.
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You know what? We're we're actual Shia, right?
22:20
The Imam said you are followers of ABI Sofian.
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In other words, there were followers of the Kilafa.
22:27
And yeah, some of them, like you were saying earlier, some of
22:30
them in Kufa might have sympathized with the Imam.
22:33
They might have liked him. They might have actually admired
22:36
him. Which you can say the same about
22:40
every Muslim today, right? Yes.
22:41
Yeah. So it's like, you know, every
22:43
Sunni would say we love the other bait.
22:45
Every Shia would say we love the other bait.
22:47
So if somebody participated, I mean, obviously it wasn't Jews
22:49
or Christians who came to kill the Imam wasn't Hindus, It was
22:52
Muslims. And so just like today, those
22:56
quote, UN quote, socalled Muslims claim to love Imam Al
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Hussein. Right.
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But to call them Shia would require additional proof.
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I mean that's just absurd, which is why who was it?
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Who came? I think it was on his way
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back-to-back from Kufa and he encountered the Imam.
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The Imam asked him what's going on in Kufa, what's the
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situation? And he said to him, I'll be
23:23
honest with you, Olobo Mac was you for home.
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I like, yeah, they might sympathize.
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They might like you. Oh, he's the Prophet's grandson.
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But their swords are unsheathed in your face.
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They're trying to kill you. So that's that's one issue.
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As far as the question that you asked about the Muktel, I think
23:45
that's that's a very, it's a, it's an all-encompassing topic.
23:52
It's a very deep one. And I did a course a few years
23:55
ago, an online course that's available on YouTube called
24:00
Asurology, in which the idea was to try and look at the the
24:06
Aishwarya narrative and verify the sources that are used to
24:14
arrive at the stories that we hear today.
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And so for an indepth discussion, I think it's a four
24:20
part series, maybe three parts with a Q&A.
24:24
I would highly encourage the viewers to go and watch that.
24:28
So just look up Asurology and you'll find it.
24:31
Can I ask? Sorry, say just as maybe as a
24:33
preemptive, maybe to encourage people to listen to that, but
24:37
someone might say what? What is the big deal?
24:39
Do I need to know the small details of the Maktal?
24:41
If I know a mom died in this way and he died thirsty and his
24:45
family and companions were killed?
24:46
No, No, absolutely not. In fact, that's a really good
24:49
point that you're making, which is that, look, there are things
24:51
that we have no dispute about. These are beyond question.
24:56
In fact, these are the biggest tragedies.
25:00
If we do differ on some of the details, they they don't rise up
25:04
to the gravity of these points that you just mentioned.
25:08
The very fact that Imam Hussein was killed is a big deal, right?
25:13
The very fact that he was deprived of water despite having
25:17
access to it is a big deal. The very fact that they killed
25:21
his family, his children, his infant is a very big deal.
25:25
Now, whether we disagree on some of the my new details, you know,
25:31
perhaps the conversations that took between Imam Hussain and
25:34
all Madhavan Sad or Lady Zainab and Abdel Abbas and so forth,
25:38
they don't change anything, right?
25:40
Right. They don't change the narrative.
25:42
They don't, you know, they don't obstruct anything, they don't
25:46
distort anything. That's a really good point.
25:49
And if anybody has qualms or misconceptions or you know, any
25:55
other negative reaction to the differences that we see, I would
25:59
refer them back to this point, which is stick to the main
26:02
events which are beyond dispute. That's number one.
26:08
As far as the narrative itself is concerned, look, we have
26:12
incredibly reliable sources that we refer back to.
26:16
Don't forget one thing. When it comes to the dates on
26:22
which the imams of the other bait were killed, there are a
26:28
lot of different, different opinions.
26:30
Not just the imams of the other bait, but the prophet himself.
26:34
There are seven or eight different opinions as to when
26:37
the prophet died. Think about that for a moment.
26:40
This is our sort of law we're talking about.
26:42
This is the leader of this nation, God's final prophet.
26:47
And yet Eben Hajaf says it's this date.
26:50
Eben Masoud said it was in the month of Ramadan.
26:54
A third person comes along and says, no, it's a completely
26:56
different date, right? Seven or eight different dates,
27:00
including the days of the week on which the Prophet passed
27:04
away. The Prophet died or is martyred,
27:07
rather. And so if we have this many
27:10
disagreements, don't you think there's going to be
27:13
disagreements about some of the other details?
27:15
But here's what's interesting. The only exception to this rule
27:19
about different opinions is Imam al Hussein.
27:23
There's not a single person out there who disputes that Imam al
27:26
Hussein's martyrdom occurred on the day of Ashurah of the first
27:30
month of the Muslim year, the year 61 after Hijra, right?
27:37
Nobody disputes this. What does that tell you?
27:40
It tells you that the events of the Day of Ashurah were so
27:46
unambiguous, they're so clear. They were factual.
27:51
These weren't things that people, you know, had any
27:55
disputes about. The reason for that is because
27:58
this wasn't an ambush on the House of Fatima Tuzaara where
28:02
you could get into the details of what happened inside that
28:05
house. Yeah, right.
28:06
And it was. Clear car it was.
28:08
It was. It happened in broad daylight
28:11
and and it happened in front of 30,000 witnesses, right, 30,000
28:17
people who were there to kill Imamir Hussein and they each saw
28:21
much of what happened. But as far as the reliability of
28:25
the narrative is concerned, you need to understand that number
28:29
one, the number one source is eyewitness reports, right?
28:33
When you have 30,000 witnesses to an event, it's not something
28:37
you can deny, right? You had people in the camp of
28:41
Imamir Hussein, individuals like of the Haq Al Mashraqi who is
28:45
there and he narrates many of the stories.
28:47
The number 72, for instance, is ascribed to him, which is not
28:53
accurate. The reason being that there were
28:55
people who joined Imam Hussein afterwards, right?
28:57
There were people who came from the side of Omar bin Saad.
29:01
There were people who joined Imam Al Hussein from Basra and
29:04
perhaps Kufa. But of the Haq al Mashraqi is a
29:08
is a source of the stories. You have Habib, the Muslim, who
29:12
is kind of like a neutral journalist who was recording the
29:16
event. And he had a keen interest on
29:19
the most, you know, on the finest details, including the
29:23
fact that when Al Qasim Ibn al Hassan Ali him as Salaam when
29:28
his sandals snapped, he said I will never forget that it was
29:33
the right one. So, you know, it goes into that
29:37
level of detail because it's his job.
29:40
He's there literally to record all of the events in as much
29:43
detail as possible, Exactly like a journalist, right?
29:46
You also have people on the enemy side who, again, there
29:49
were 30,000 of them. They witnessed all of these
29:53
events take place unfold right before their two eyes, and they
29:57
would tell each other. They would verify the stories
30:00
afterwards as well. A lot of them went back to Kufa
30:03
and they would tell their families and their friends that
30:06
this is what happened. And a lot of these stories were
30:08
verifiable because, again, it's not just two eyewitnesses, but
30:11
30,000 of them. Then you had the testimonies of
30:15
the perpetrators of the of the crimes and the heinous acts on
30:20
the day of Aishwarya RA who when they were captured by Muktara
30:24
Thakafi, he would question them and they would, they would, you
30:27
know, tell on themselves. They would testify to their
30:29
crimes. So you have all of these
30:32
testimonials, testimonials. You have all of these
30:35
eyewitnesses. That's number one.
30:36
Number two, you have the imams of the albeit themselves, who in
30:40
the case of Imam Zein al Abadine and Imam Al Baker, they were
30:44
eyewitnesses in addition to the fact that they were imams.
30:49
And so when Imam Assad Kali Hassalam says that my
30:52
grandfather Imam Al Hussein on the eve of Aishwarya spoke to
30:57
his sisters Zainab and said so and so, or when he was walking
31:02
about with Nafia Abhinalal, he said such and such.
31:07
Or when Aleonel Akbar spoke to his father on their way to
31:11
Karbala, this is what happened. These are the words of an
31:15
infallible inherent Imam, right. So it holds as much value as any
31:22
juristic hokum, any juristic ruling, it has the same value.
31:28
So that's that's another source you also had people, don't
31:32
forget, who were on the side of Imam Al Hussein but were injured
31:38
and captured but never killed. One of them is an individual who
31:42
was a servant of Rabab Salamu lahi Aliyah.
31:45
Right. This person wasn't killed.
31:48
He was injured. They took him.
31:50
His tribe intervened. They didn't want to see him
31:53
getting killed and so they interceded for him.
31:56
They took him, He was exiled and within about a year he died.
31:59
So he was another source. And so based on all of this, the
32:05
the collection of the stories of Karbala began immediately after
32:10
the event took place. You have Al Asbarabnando Bata,
32:14
who wrote a Maktel. Maktel mean the passion
32:17
narrative or the story of the killing of Imam Hussain Ali.
32:21
Hes Salaam. That's what Maktel means for
32:23
those people who don't know. Then you had Abu Loot, even ABI
32:27
Mukhdef. Now this person was also a
32:30
historian. He had no bias whatsoever.
32:35
Someone who was a professional and you know collated all of the
32:39
stories, brought them together, verified them, cross checked
32:43
them and wrote his book. And the reason I say he wasn't
32:46
biased and was a professional is because Athabadi relies heavily
32:50
on his narrative. Now Athabadi being a Sunni
32:54
obviously wouldn't rely on somebody who was seen as being
32:57
biased or Shia or what have you. And so there was there was no
33:02
reason for the stories to be to be to be exaggerated.
33:04
There was no way of doing that when you have this many
33:07
eyewitnesses and this many testimonies which could be
33:10
easily referenced. And so after that, you you, you
33:16
have a very rigorous process of trying to put all of these
33:21
different pieces together and arrive at a clear picture of
33:25
what happened on the day of Aishwarya.
33:27
Sorry to interrupt you but sorry I know you have a question said
33:30
I need but the dramatization or knowing the the the deeds fine
33:35
details of the Mccullen, Aishwarya what happened could
33:38
one argue referring back to your first point that generally
33:42
speaking. Not a big deal, but whether
33:45
there were 72 or 118 companions, whether Ali Akbar was 28 or 22
33:51
or whatever, it might be all these.
33:53
Obviously it's important for us to know historical facts when
33:56
we're discussing infallibles, as you mentioned, and whatnot, But
33:59
when we disseminate the message of Ashurar to to non-Muslims and
34:04
to people who are wanting, wanting to learn.
34:06
How important are those details to convey?
34:09
The message itself. So you're right.
34:11
On the one hand, those details are important because they
34:14
pertain to something that's sacrosanct, right?
34:18
They have to do with an event that shook the world, and we
34:24
still feel the reverberations. And in fact, an event that's
34:29
directly connected to the to the most significant, most
34:35
monumental thing that will define the future of humanity,
34:39
the rise and the return of the Imam of the time, the Savior.
34:44
So insofar as the the theological implications of the
34:51
event, those details are important, and it would be
34:54
wonderful for us to reach definitive answers for these
34:58
questions. However, insofar as these
35:03
questions impact on the tragic side of the martyrdom of Himamir
35:10
Hussain, they are inconsequential, right?
35:14
It doesn't really matter exactly how old Abdullah Radhir was,
35:22
whether he was six months old or six months and two weeks old.
35:26
Like you said, Ali, Yun and Akbar, his exact age, how many
35:29
children he had, those things don't really factor into it.
35:33
Doesn't. Change what happened.
35:34
It doesn't change what happened exactly.
35:36
And so for people to try and use these discrepancies if you like,
35:44
or these gaps, these holes to paint a picture that the entire
35:49
narrative is questionable is it's an act of injustice.
35:55
It's disingenuous. It's wrong, right?
35:58
And it's just on. It's unacademic, right?
36:03
Because ultimately the story of Imam Al Hussein is half It's.
36:11
If we were to divide it into two parts, one part would be about
36:15
the objectives, the morals, the inspiration of Imam Al Hussein,
36:22
why he did what he did and what he represents to us, How we can
36:27
be inspired by him, how we can use the legend of Imam al
36:32
Hussein to get closer to a loss of Hana Hawata Allah through the
36:37
Imam. And on the other hand it's about
36:40
the macabre heart rending tragedy that befell the family
36:45
of Rasul Allah. And those details really don't
36:48
affect either of these two aspects.
36:51
Just if I if I can add to this narrative and this motel.
36:55
Discussion that we're having here and I and I think Mr.
36:58
Sanctions sometimes can stem from ourselves, from Shias
37:01
themselves. And one thing I've noticed every
37:03
year, and I think we bring this up before the podcast as well As
37:05
for example, we some believe it's possibly culturally.
37:09
Did it happen? Did it not happen?
37:10
I don't know the answer to this completely myself.
37:12
For example, we have the example of the wedding of Qassam of net
37:15
Hassan Salaam. Did he get married?
37:19
And actually, I've heard some people say he got married on
37:23
that day. Nika Hawaii is only that it
37:25
happened. Some say no, you wanted to get
37:27
married. There was an attention.
37:28
Some say there was no such thing as a wedding at all.
37:30
How can we answer this? Because I'm in Iraqi culture on
37:35
a sharing culture has said that we sort of take this culturally.
37:40
We we give an entire night to this.
37:43
For example, when it comes to, for example three article plays
37:46
in our senses or for example, you know, holding candles and.
37:52
Distributing sweets in the name of Basavutma Hassan.
37:55
What's the reason behind all of this?
37:57
Did it happen? Firstly, I'm asking this
38:00
question. Did it happen?
38:01
Yeah, as far as I can tell, no. OK, so was there a wedding held
38:09
on the day of Aishwarya? No.
38:13
But, and I think this is important, Yeah, ultimately the
38:21
grief that we express for the martyrs of Karbala is based on
38:31
the actual tragedies that took that took place, but also the
38:35
unrealized dreams. And I think most people,
38:40
especially those from the Indian subcontinent, but also in Iran
38:43
and Iraq and places like these, they'll say the same thing.
38:46
Like they, I think most people recognize that you couldn't
38:49
possibly have a wedding on the day of Aishwarya, even if it's
38:53
like a very simplistic, very basic thing.
38:56
But that's how they view it. They feel that awesome, this
39:01
young boy, like, you know, a lot of times you see pregnant women,
39:06
their babies are not even born yet, but they're already
39:09
thinking about, you know, maybe when he grows up, he'll get
39:12
married to his cousin, you know, like my my sister's girl, she's
39:15
so nice. Or she's also pregnant with her
39:17
baby daughter. And so every mother is always,
39:21
you know, she's always, you know, she has all these hopes
39:25
and dreams for her, for her child.
39:28
And so when when people talk about Qasim's wedding, really
39:33
what it's about at its very core is Rumla's unrealized hopes and
39:39
dreams for her son. If that's if that's how we view
39:44
it, then distributing sweets in the name of Qasim, there's
39:49
nothing wrong with it. Or carrying, I don't know what
39:52
they call it like an India and Pakistan.
39:53
They have this thing in Iraq and Iran.
39:56
I think they call it Hejla, right?
39:58
This this thing that they carry around.
40:01
Is that like heretical? Is that oh battle Kasim Arsen?
40:05
Is that heretical? Is that an insult to Imamir
40:09
Hussain, or to Qasim or to Sucana?
40:12
Absolutely not. Because it's about the
40:15
unrealized hopes and dreams. It's about the potential that
40:19
was never reached. It's about the fact that had
40:21
cost him grown to get married and have kids, that would have
40:25
been, you know, one of the one of the main bloodlines for Imam
40:29
Al Hassan, Ali Salam and all of these Syed's who could have come
40:33
into this world, who who could have been productive, you know,
40:37
members of society who could have achieved great things.
40:41
And so is that a reason to lament and to cry and to grieve?
40:45
Absolutely. Yeah.
40:46
Right. But my issue is when people make
40:49
a big deal out of it. Yeah.
40:51
Especially people who you know cuz.
40:54
I've seen it on Twitter this year.
40:55
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, yeah, these are all
40:58
fabrications and whatnot. What do you mean, fabrications?
41:01
What exactly are we doing? Giving out sweets or, you know,
41:06
or doing henna and things like that?
41:08
Nobody's saying that that's what happened on the day of Ashura,
41:12
right? It's about lamenting the
41:14
unrealized hopes. It's about crying for the fact
41:17
that this crime was made so much worse because it took place
41:21
against a 13 year old boy who could have grown up and gotten
41:25
married, perhaps to the daughter of Imam Al Hussein, which would
41:29
have carried, you know, a sacred bloodline from both the Mama
41:33
Hassan and Imam Al Hussein. Right.
41:35
Let's not make a big deal out of it.
41:37
If somebody wants to, you know, do this and remember it and even
41:40
talk about some, you know, you know, marriage, that could have
41:44
potentially happened or they might actually believe that it
41:47
did find. Yeah, fine.
41:49
What's the big deal? Like you said, it doesn't change
41:51
anything, does it doesn't change the fact that Imam Hussein's
41:54
tragedy was the peak. It was the ultimate catastrophe.
41:59
Said a final question from me, specifically in regards to post
42:04
Oshodra in in the 10 nights of Muharram.
42:09
We of course exhibit a high emotional status in ourselves
42:14
and we kind of put forward. Our most vulnerable selves to
42:17
Las Panamata, Isla. And in these ten nights when we
42:21
exhibit these, of course we have questions from from our
42:23
brothers, sisters, from other schools of thought as to why we
42:25
are so emotional, but then also after Ashwara ends.
42:30
Questions come as to look Idmam Hussain has died.
42:33
We know from a hadith the holy proper Mohammed said about
42:35
mourning for three days and what not.
42:37
Why do we continue to mourn immamid Hussein Ali Salaam?
42:41
Why do we go back on the 40th and utterbein?
42:43
Why across the year do we remember the tragedy of Al
42:45
Hussein on Thursday nights? So in some communities even in
42:48
weddings like you mentioned said, we talk about Immam
42:51
Hussein and is there a need for us to do that or not?
42:55
So that's the question for me. What's the point of the tears?
42:58
I think is what right? The same.
43:01
So I think we need to decide whether we want to take a
43:03
rational approach or a textual approach.
43:07
The difference obviously being that if you want to take a
43:10
textual approach, then you need to go back and see what the Imam
43:14
said about this, what how they practiced the the tragedy or
43:22
they commemorated the tragedy of Imam Hussein.
43:25
And if you take this route, then the answer is very simple.
43:28
The Imams, starting with the Holy Prophet himself, clearly
43:33
wanted the tragedy of Imam Hussein to be commemorated with
43:38
utmost vigor and passion. In fact, the verse in the Quran
43:44
is clear about this. Dali Kawaman you are of limb
43:47
Shah or Allah in Naham and Takhwal whoever revives, whoever
43:54
God could have said. Dalaika woman Yuhi Shah Allah
43:57
whoever revives them God could have said woman Yukimo Shah
44:02
Allah whoever upholds them. But he doesn't say that the
44:04
verse says what you have them. Amplify, glorify, hold it with
44:11
the highest esteem and passion to Alim.
44:15
Alim means great and so the Quran says this.
44:20
Then you come to the words of the Prophet.
44:25
The it's a famous hadith when Fatah Metuzara I mentioned it
44:29
in, I think the first night of the series in Maharam where the
44:33
Prophet tells Fatah Metuzara they have a conversation.
44:36
Fatah Metuzara asks a question. She says Yarasu lala.
44:40
This boy talks to me just like she did when she was in the womb
44:45
of the blessed lady Hadijali Hazala to Asalam, where she
44:49
would comfort and console her mother because she was abandoned
44:52
by everybody. My mom and Hussein was speaking
44:54
to Fatima, so the prophet is what does he say?
44:57
And she said he constantly says Anna Lari Anna at Sean Anna
45:03
Mvloom What's what's that all about?
45:07
And so the Prophet says to his daughter that your son's going
45:14
to be killed and he'll be deserted, he'll be all alone,
45:20
and eventually he'll be massacred along with his family.
45:26
So Fatima Tusara says if that's the case, then I don't want him
45:31
to come into this world. You know, it's like sometimes
45:36
you meet people who, let's say, you know, you're in Iraq and you
45:43
lost your son, you're a mother, and you had a son who was killed
45:46
by Saddam. Then you come and see all the
45:49
corruption and you'll see all the the neglect of religious
45:53
values. And as a mother, it's well
45:56
within your right to say, you know what I feel like My my boy,
46:00
you know, was he went to waste, like, you know, these people
46:05
don't deserve him. Fatima to Zara felt the same way
46:09
about Ahmad Hussain. It's like, I don't.
46:11
I don't want my son to be wasted.
46:14
He's too great. He was one of the lights that
46:17
circumambulated God's throne. Hello Nawahalelatil Mela.
46:21
Because a Bahna was a Bah til Mela.
46:24
They were teaching the angels how to glorify and honor a loss
46:27
panotale. For him to come into this world,
46:29
to be, to be treated like this, maybe it's best if he doesn't
46:33
come into this world. And so the Prophet tells her
46:36
that you know, there is there's a plan that Allah has from Mama
46:40
Hussein. He's going to be the Ark of
46:41
salvation, the Lantern of guidance, and ultimately it is
46:45
from his lineage that the Mehdi will come and so forth.
46:49
Then the question that Fatima Tusara asks the Prophet is will,
46:53
will we be around? And the Prophet says no, it'll
46:55
be at a time when I'm gone and you're gone and his brother is
46:59
gone, his father is gone. And so she then says, will
47:02
anyone mourn him? Will anyone cry for him?
47:05
So the Prophet says that the men will cry for the men, the women
47:10
will cry for the women. And from the moment before Imam
47:16
Hussein is born, the Prophet is saying people will cry for
47:19
Hussein. And if a law allows us to be
47:23
manifestations of this, hadith in itself is the greatest honor
47:28
for us to cry. Look you know think about the
47:32
the the issue of tears. From this perspective our entire
47:36
religion is based on what the hadith famously declares.
47:39
And this this is exclusive to the Shia school and to the other
47:43
Bates school of thought. When the when the Imams say, say
47:48
LA said Dino El El Hob, religion is nothing but love.
47:52
Now think about this. If you loved someone truly loved
47:56
them and you lost them, wouldn't you cry for them?
47:59
Now our love for the Prophet and his household is beyond and
48:04
above It supersedes our love for anybody else.
48:08
Or at least that's how it should be.
48:10
So when you see someone crying for Imam Hussein, would you
48:13
blame them or would you praise them?
48:16
You would say, you know what that means, That you have such a
48:19
special bond with Rasul Allah, right, and his household that
48:24
you now can't control your emotions.
48:27
You, you, you have an emotional outpour based on that love.
48:32
It's it's spontaneous. It's not something you decide to
48:34
do, right. It's not a mechanical thing
48:37
where it's like, you know what, let me sit down and cry.
48:39
It doesn't work that way. Anybody who's cried for Obama
48:41
Hussein knows they do that because they had they
48:45
established that there's that spark you you, you make a
48:48
connection and it just flows out.
48:51
Yeah, right. That's I think is a simple way
48:54
of looking at it. Why do we do it?
48:56
Because every time we hear the story, we're reminded of just
49:00
how difficult it was, not just for Imam Al Hussein, but for
49:04
Fatima Tuza, for Imam Ali, for Imam Al Hassan, for ladies in
49:08
the tragedy that continued and continues to this very day.
49:12
Right. Imam al Hussein is neglected.
49:14
Imam al Hussein, the vast majority of Muslims.
49:17
You know, it's it's like this convert was saying, but we
49:21
always think of Imam Al Hassan and Imam Hussein as kids because
49:24
all the stories we've heard about them are stories when they
49:27
were around the Prophet and whatnot.
49:28
Well, what about in the Imam when he grow old, grew older and
49:32
became an adult, Imam Al Hussein is neglected.
49:35
They think of a lot of the, you know, be graded companions as
49:42
being superior to Imam Al Hassan and Imam Al Hussein, if not in
49:46
in how they describe the different tiers.
49:49
At least in practice, Imam Al Hussein, you know, took a back
49:53
seat. As far as the the mainstream
49:55
Muslims are concerned, we feel a bond with Imam al Hussein and
50:00
this bond is God-given. It's a gift that Allah has given
50:03
us and it's based on that, that we can't help but remember him
50:08
and mourn for him and cry for him, which is exactly what Rasul
50:11
Allah would do had he been here. Wouldn't the Prophet do that
50:15
right? Anniversaries.
50:17
Like imagine a mother loses her child in a really tragic way
50:20
every year on that day. What does that Mother Mother do?
50:23
She cries, she remembers, she mourns.
50:26
If the Prophet was here today, would he not cry for for Imam
50:29
Hussain? He would.
50:30
And so would anyone blame us if we cried along with Rasul Allah.
50:33
If we offered condolences to the Holy Prophet Son, son of Lilac,
50:38
we'll have more of them in the coming days and weeks and
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months. So Matthew, thank you very much.
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My pleasure tuning in And do not forget to of course hit that
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50:54
where wherever of course you also get your podcasts, whether
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it's Apple or Spotify or even Google Charlotte, we will be
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back as always next week. We'll see you then.