Latest / Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast / How Do Competition Judges Keep Their Emotions Out of Scoring?

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How Do Competition Judges Keep Their Emotions Out of Scoring? · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever wondered what goes on behind the table at a dance competition?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly what are the judges looking for anyway?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: This is Making the Impact a Dance Competition podcast.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Each week we'll cover a different topic related to the world of competitive dance, from the perspective of the judges behind the table.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Competition adjudicators are humans first, judges second.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: And our emotions sometimes come into play when we're behind the table at a competition.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Today on Making the Impact, two veteran IDA judges join us to discuss how we remain as objective as possible when judging, while also trying to stay human and enjoy the art of dance.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: Hey y'all, welcome to this week's episode of Making the Impact.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'm your host, Courtney Ortiz, and I'm here with my co-host Leslie Mailer.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: Hey Courtney, happy podcast day.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_03: Happy Podcast Day and happy competition season.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_03: We're talking all about the judges this week on Making the Impact.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: We are.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: We are like really smack in the middle of it.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because I feel like there's a lot of events that go on until June.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, not to mention nationals.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: So we've got we've got two excellent judges on today, two IDA judges, to come alongside us to talk about how judges' emotions affect scoring.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's a that is definitely a hot topic, I think, because there's a lot of there may be a lot of opinions that come into play with how a judge scores a dance or how a judge critiques a dance.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: So we're gonna cover that on this week's episode and hopefully help inform the dancers, the teachers, the studios, the parents, uh a little bit more about what really goes into judging at a dance competition.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a listener-selected episode.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you to everyone who responded to our poll uh last month, just giving so many great suggestions about what you want to hear, about what topics you want covered.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: We are absolutely putting everything else in the brainstorming tab for the future seasons, but we were really excited to tackle this one, so I think it's gonna be a great informative episode.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_03: Me too.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: And before we head into our episode, we have some Making the Impact Award winners to share with you all.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_03: As you may have heard on our podcast, since we're in the heat of the season, Making the Impact and IDA sponsor an award at all IDA affiliated competitions called the Making the Impact Judge's Choice Award.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_03: And this award will be given to one dance at each IDA affiliated competition with at least one IDA judge on the panel.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_03: And it goes to that dance that the judges just cannot stop thinking about by the end of the weekend.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe they had amazing execution, beautiful technique, an amazing storyline, uh, awesome choreography, whatever it is they want to recognize you.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_03: And this could go to a dance solo through production.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the perks, not only do you get an awesome Making the Impact plaque, but you get a shout-out on a future podcast episode.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: So let's hear some of our recent Making the Impact Award winners.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: From True Dance Challenges event in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, congrats to Dance Fusion Performing Arts Studio of Allentown, Pennsylvania for their small group, Breath of Life.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: From Legend National Dance Competitions event in Long Island, New York, congrats to Dance Workshop of Deer Park of Deer Park, New York for their duo trio, Call Me Mother.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: And from DECA Dance Competitions event in Edison, New Jersey, congrats to Step by Step Dance Studio from Millstone Township, New Jersey, for their small group, me.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: Congrats to all of our recent Making the Impact Award winners.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_03: If you are a recipient of our award, don't forget to register your award by scanning the QR code on the back so you can hear your studio shout-out on a future episode.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_03: And now let's hear from our sponsors.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_03: Coming to you from our season 5 premiere sponsor, Francisco Gella Danceworks, I'm excited to introduce New Century Dance Project, a festival of performance and choreography.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_03: New Century Dance Project focuses on teaching the craft of choreography and why it's important for both choreographers and the dancer.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_03: Festival components include a choreography intensive for dancers ages 15 to 24, a choreography competition, concert performances, and community outreach events.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_03: The seven-day intensive starts every day with a technique class.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_03: After that, participants will head into classes and seminars that aid in the choreographic process, such as compositional techniques, improv, use of props, music selection, partnering, lighting and design, and so much more.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: What sets this intensive apart is the ability to hear and see various artistic voices throughout the week, allowing new choreographers to develop their unique style.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_03: The choreographic competition offers three age groups, high school, undergraduate, and emerging professional.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_03: The competition results in a critic's choice winner judged by a distinguished faculty and a people's choice winner, voted by the audience for each age division.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_03: If you are an aspiring choreographer ages 15 or older, looking to advance your composition knowledge and display your work in an artistic choreography competition, then look no further with the News Century Dance Project, taking place this summer in Santa Fe, New Mexico, from July 29th through August 4th, 2024.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: The deadline to submit your choreography for consideration is by March 1st, 2024.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_03: Use our exclusive podcast promo code MAKING THE IMPACT in all caps when registering for the festival to receive$75 off.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_03: Learn more on their website at New Century Dance Project.org.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_03: All right, Dance World, we're jumping into our next episode, and this week it's all about competitive dance and the judges at the competition.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of people have asked us how do you remain unbiased when you are a judge?
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_03: How do you stay completely neutral as a judge and not let your personal opinion and personal experience sway the judging panel or get in the way of how you're scoring a dance or letting the emotions of that of your personal emotions from that dance that you're witnessing affect your scoring?
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_03: And that is definitely a tough conversation and also a tough job on the judge's end that I know I struggle with very often when I'm judging at dance competitions, and I'm sure every judge does as well.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_03: So we have four, including myself and my fabulous co-host Leslie, four voices, four experienced judges who are joining us today who have been doing this for a very long time, y'all.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: So we can share all of our experiences from when we first started to now as adjudicators on this chat.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: And uh also a brand new guest to Making the Impact.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_03: The first brand new guest I'm excited to welcome today on the pod is an IDA judge, brand new this season.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: We're so thrilled to have her join the IDA roster.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_03: She is an experienced dance educator, and I'm getting to know her for the very first time here on the pod.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'm excited to welcome Rachel Roberts.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome, Rachel.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, thank you so much for having me.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's an honor to be here.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yay! And we're thrilled to have you as a new judge with IDA.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_03: We've been judging for a long time, but just not with us yet.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_03: That's correct.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yay.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you for applying the season.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_03: Excited to get you out as a judge.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_03: And uh if your first time on the pod, so if you wouldn't mind telling everybody more about you, where you're based, your dance training, and what you're currently working on.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: That sounds great.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: Well, like most kids, you know, started dancing at the age of three.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: I grew up in Las Vegas, and so I had a lot of wonderful teachers from that area, obviously.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: I graduated from the Las Vegas Academy of the Arts, which is a performing arts high school there.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: I majored in dance and I had a lot of classes in musical theater as well.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: Then I went on to Oklahoma City University, which I know you're familiar with, and had some great training and experience.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: I loved doing company choreography shows, all the things.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: I've been a dance instructor in the Tulsa area for about 20 years.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: I've been an adjudicator for about 12.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I just I love what I do.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: I love helping kids learn to dance.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: I love seeing those light bulbs click, whether that be in the studio, whether it's the convention room, or even from the judge's perspective.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I have a lot of choreography experience through studio work, but I've also worked on set as a choreographer for a lot of regional commercials.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then I've worked with a lot of local, state, and national level Miss America contestants.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's been a fun little aspect of my job as well.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: But I just love working with kids.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: I love seeing the next generation of dancers come up.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: And and it's so different from when I was a kid competing till now, but I love to see that growth and that change in the industry for sure.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_03: And Rachel, how long have you been judging?
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's been about 12 years.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: So just for various competitions.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: Good 12 years solid.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's been fun.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's been amazing.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's been a whirlwind, but it's been fun.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_03: I think all of us are probably around that like over 10 year judging mark that are here today.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_03: So veteran judges on this chat.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_03: Awesome.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks so much, Rachel.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_03: We're happy to have you here.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: Our next special guest is one that you may have heard many times on previous episodes of Making the Impact.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_03: They are a spectacular educator, amazing choreographer teaching at Steps on Broadway.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_03: And they are, they've been on the roster of IDA as a judge for many, many years.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_03: Their previous episodes include our recent QA with Courtney in December that launched for Platinum Premium and our full podcast episode.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_03: Season four, episode 140, Appropriateness of Choreography in Competitive Dance.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_03: Ooh, that was a hot one.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_03: Y'all need to listen.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_03: And season two, episode 52, The Importance of Musicality.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_03: Loved that one as well.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'm excited to welcome back the one, the only, Tommy Scrivens to the podcast.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome, Tommy.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, hey, hey.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, it's so good to be back.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm always excited to get on and chat and discuss these amazing topics.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_03: So many topics.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_03: So many.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_03: And you have so much to give to our dance community with each topic that we tackle.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you for wanting to join us again on the podcast.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's my pleasure.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_03: Quick little reminder since a lot of people will probably remember some of your previous episodes, but reminder of who's Tommy?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Tommy is I'm originally from Florida.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: I went to school at the Ohio State University.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Had a very, very diverse career in the business.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Started out with Parsons Dance.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: I've been Ember Inspired Contemporary Company.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm currently a legacy teacher with American Dance Machine, a protege with the Freedom Flossy Legacy, professor of mus uh in dance with the musical theater program at Marymount, teaching, choreographing, judging, you name it, I kind of do it.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: Still performing as well.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I am all over the place and I love it.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't see myself stopping anytime soon.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I love that.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_03: And every time you share what you've done, I'm like, you've done it all.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_03: You've really covered the map of the dance world and fr from the New York City side of things.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm just so inspired by you and keep doing what you're doing, Tommy.
• 11:20
  unknown: Thank you.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: Excited to have you.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_03: Let's jump into this one.
• 11:23
  unknown: Yes.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, thanks again, y'all, for being here.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: I am excited to hear just, you know, your various perspectives on this topic because I think it's like it's almost impossible.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: You can't say I am neutral all the time because everyone's a human and we all have feelings and emotions and past experiences that inform how we do our jobs, right?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: But it is, you know, something we all strive for is to be able to place an objective view on the art that we're we're viewing and scoring.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: But it's hard.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think people need to understand, you know, if if something happens at a dance competition or you get a score in a certain way, you know, there usually is a reason.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: And here we are to tell you some of these reasons about why we're human and what what affects us.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: I guess we can start with, you know, I guess what type of dance affects you emotionally, like in a positive way.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Let's start there.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: What what do you just love to see that may actually, you know, boost your score a little bit?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I'll I'll jump right in.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: I have no problem.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: I it's for me, it is any time that a performer, a group or solo duet, whatever, anytime that the dancers are actually emotionally committed to what they're doing, it's something that always affects me.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: And oddly enough, I was just discussing that it tends to happen more often than not in the debut and intermediate levels, actually.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because those students are usually there because they really love dance and because they're just starting, they don't have this idea of what competition is.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: And those tend to really affect me emotionally because they just have that passion, that raw energy that we all start with in dance before you know things get so complicated.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: So that for me is so true, like the part that really does affect me because it's just so great to see somebody and it's always just a good reminder of why I'm there, and it always grounds me a little bit more as well to see these dancers.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I completely agree.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think those beginner and intermediate levels, you see the passion, you see that commitment from them that like and it reminds you again why you started to begin with, and that just the rawness of it, the joy in their faces when they're performing and in their body language, even as they're walking on the stage.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the best part is seeing when they complete that dance and they're happy with what they did and they take that bow and they just walk off and they're so excited and so joyful.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes you look into the wings and you see them running to the arms of their friends or their or their teachers, and it's just that's that just a special moment.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: That's like more than a competition.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's the joy of dance.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and that's my favorite award to give.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: And anytime I'm offered the opportunity to give a special award, I try to find one.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not usually hard, like you said, in those beginner levels, because those kids just love it.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: And you can tell.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm in total agreement with y'all, you know, when when I can see somebody that's just out there because they love to dance, great.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: It may not affect my score, but it's affecting me as Leslie Mueller, the person.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, like I said, that's my favorite award to give.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, and that actually means a lot more because that, you know, yay, your technique, but also you just made me, you made my day.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that's, I think, more important than great technique.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it sometimes does affect my score because sometimes I'll be watching dance, especially if we have broken down scores, right?
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_03: And we can break it down from technique to performance.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I will acknowledge that your performance was amazing in your scoring.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I will make that scene for the dancer and the teacher because I felt something watching you.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_03: Like, that's what we want is we and and whatever that feel that feeling is, like, I prefer it to be a happy, positive, you know, feeling when I watch you dance.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want to feel like, I mean, of course, we're gonna share different emotions as we perform, but like I want to know that you are enjoying this up there.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_03: I want to regardless of what we're going for, acting choices and theme or whatever, I wanna I want to be able to tell that like you are excited to be on that stage, and it makes me excited to watch you.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_03: There's like a lot of dancers sometimes that come out on stage, and I I truly question if they want to be there.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_03: I I in my head I'm like, do you really want to do this right now?
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: I don't even know.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_03: I feel nothing from you, but the steps are nice and great job pointing your feet.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_03: But give me something more.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: And then in those scenarios, like we have to kind of explain in our critique why that performance score is lower.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, I do think it pending, like if you made me feel something, I might be giving you a higher performance score.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I try to take those moments too to remind the competitors that I'm a human being as well.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I like those moments.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so in my critiques, I try to say, hey, I noticed this and it made me really happy.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so I hope that brings me off of this different kind of mindset for for the competitors.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a human being too.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not this robot that feels nothing when you're dancing.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so I try to acknowledge that and tell them, do that more, because that's beautiful.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so on the on the other end of the spectrum, what what kind of dances affect you in terms of making our job really challenging?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because I I I I like that you brought up the broken down scores, Courtney, because when when we have now listen, there's pros and cons to one score and broken down scores.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I am I see the pros and cons to all of these things.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: But when there is a broken down score, like you said, you can award good technique versus poor performance or poor execution or whatever in a very clear way.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so what happens when something is emotionally triggering to you or challenging for you, but the technique is really great?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: How do we how do we talk about that?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: And how do we give that, you know, that kind of routine its due?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: I know we got we went from like we love dance to some questions.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's pretty simple for me.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: I try as much as I can to keep aesthetic out of my brain when I'm judging because it's kind of tricky because everybody likes something that's a little bit different.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: And to be completely honest, I'm a person of color, I'm black, and I'm also queer.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: So there are a lot of things that affect me because there's a lot of appropriation that happens, period.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it's always happening and it's always gonna happen, and there's no way around it.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: So it's something that I've had to learn to just automatically look at the bare bones of what it is that I'm seeing.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: But for me, the only time that I have a really, really hard time with any of it is when the students on stage don't understand what they're doing.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: When I can see in their eyes that they're absolutely confused by what the theme is, or that they're dancing to something, and I'm like, you don't understand the history behind this because you would not be making those faces, you would not be doing those things, it hasn't been explained to you.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the only time that it actually affects me because I just think that it's a huge disservice for the dancer.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: And most of the time it affects my score, but I also make sure that I also address the teacher or the choreographer directly and say, Hey, listen, I understand what we're trying to do, but you need to explain this to your dancer.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: You need to make sure that they're understanding what they're doing.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: I just it's for me, it doesn't matter whether it's even if it's a happy dance, right, and the kids are like, don't understand that it's something that it's about joy and they're giving me faces that are angsty.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, they don't hear the lyric.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just trying to perform for you.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: That exact scenario has happened to me before, and I like I don't have a good, like, um, neutral face.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you're gonna see what I think on my face as hard as I try not to.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like, this, did you just hear what she just said?
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like the lyric was, I'm in love and I'm so happy about it, or whatever.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: And the kid is like crying.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I don't what?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so it really can go both ways.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's such a great thing to bring up, Tommy.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I feel um to add on to what Tommy said too, the teacher needs to first and foremost understand and have that connection.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: So like that teacher can then explain it to the kids.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: But also I feel like sometimes choreographers, especially if they're just starting out in the competition world, try to almost take too much risk and go sometimes past the line just so they stand out.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: Because they fall into the sea of just dance after dance after dance.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so I understand the need to want to stand out.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: However, you have to do it in a way that is not that you have to really think about your audience and think about who this can affect and what they're thinking about it as they're watching it, especially your judges.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so, like I try to give them grace in that, yes, I see that you're trying to make something original or make something stand out.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: However, to the choreographer, these are my suggestions.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I try, like Tommy said, to address the choreographer, because it's not necessarily the kids that chose this either, but I do feel like they have to have that connection in order to dance it well.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not the one dancing it.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: They are.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so if they can't connect with it and portray that character or that feeling, then maybe I need to choose a different style or a different topic to dance to.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's important for the teachers to understand their students and know when they're ready for certain themes and certain types of movement and certain topics and certain songs.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like, is your dancer mature enough to handle this?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like, there are so many times where I know I'm like, you guys are just trying to push this boundary a little bit too much where it's going over this dancer's head and they're great and they're amazing, and none of this is their fault.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_03: And like, that's the hard part when it comes to scoring, because we're supposed to score based on what we are watching.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: And but also like a lot of what we're watching is not the dancer's fault.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_03: So who's to who gets penalized?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_03: We're not allowed to penalize the choreographer because there's no score, there's nothing on the score sheet anymore that even reflects the choreographer these days.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: Like, oftentimes choreography has been eliminated from the score.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_03: But if it's a single number score, are we supposed to keep that in the back of our mind and is That play into that single number?
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like just the way it's gotten when it comes to scoring and how so many comps have like listened to their customers because studios and teachers complain that we should only be judging what's presented from the dancers and what's in their control.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: But a lot of the things, like that's why we need to have these types of conversations, which very much goes hand in hand with the appropriateness of choreography conversation that Tommy was on before.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: Because, like, what how do we how do we do better?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like, how do we fix this as judges where our hands are sometimes tied, where we can use our voice and say, hey, teacher, this theme's going a little over their head.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not sure if they're emotionally ready for this, or I'm not sure if, you know, they're they're giving the right performance that's needed for this.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_03: How can we fix that?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: Let's talk about it.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_03: But we don't even have time to do that.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_03: We just have to say it and leave and you know, move on to watch point your feet again, you know?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and that's where Rachel's comment of like, we're not robots, we're human beings.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if you would like a robot, if you would like AI to judge your dance, we can probably figure that out.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: But there's gonna be no emotion tied to that.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so if all you want me to do is say, point your feet, stretch behind your knee, I can do that.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: But then we run into the problem of, okay, well, that's not enough.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, then now we're back on the slippery slope of, well, you've affected me emotionally, therefore that's affecting me in how I score you and where I place that score.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I, you know, there's it's just this ongoing conversation of like, this is hard.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: This job is hard.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: And we all do the best we can.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: There was a routine that I've judged recently that affected all of the judges uh negatively emotionally.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it was a competition where you use one score.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said, Courtney, in that one score, how exactly do I get across that your technique was superb and the subject matter was inappropriate and it affected me so negatively that I couldn't speak anymore.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so we came up with the solution of creating a little broken down rubric kind of in in all of our brains of here's this many points for technique, here's this many points.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: So we were able to take off points somewhere that reflected this was inappropriate, you know, y'all went too far basically, but your technique was really good.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: So what ended up happening is they, you know, the score was lower than it would have been had that not come into it.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that's at least a way that you can not get around it, because it's not getting around anything, it's trying to do it right, you know.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: And fair to those that did have routines that were touching you in the right way.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: But also I think if if we do continue to explain our reasoning in our critiques, I think that helps.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: And if you do address the choreographer or address the teacher and say, this is for the teacher, this is how I feel, and this is why I did lower your score.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't want to take away from the technique, but this is one score and it has to factor in all of these areas.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why I scored the way I did.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that helps the teacher and choreographer.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: There's been many times where I've gotten scores that I don't understand, and the the judge doesn't explain that to me.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think if we do that, it's easier for them to understand and become better as teachers.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's why I take my kids to competition, is I want them to become better dancers, but I also want the feedback so I can help them and be better as a teacher.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_03: You would think, but not everybody wants that.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's funny, it is very far and few between.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_03: Like there are a lot of studios that have specifically said it's not about me, it's about my dancers.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, that is true, but you're a part of that equation.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_03: You are the one training them.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: You're the one that's training them possibly improperly.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_03: If you were training them improperly, wouldn't you want to know?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_03: Like I I would want to know.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: I do.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_03: Like, because you, you know, as teachers, we watch our dancers and we kind of have like tunnel vision and like goggles on sometimes when we're watching our dancers over and over.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_03: And once once you have someone else kind of put eyes on your dancers and kind of fine-tune things, they might see things that is different than what you see.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: Even when it comes to like technical training, you know, it's usually pretty consistent across the board when there's technical uh flaws.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: And then you just need like that one judge to be like, hey, I've watched every single dancer step up off the floor leading heel with their heel instead of their toe across the studio.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_03: That maybe that's something we can work on as a whole.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like a lot of times studios don't want to hear those types of critiques.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: They want it to just be presented to the dancer.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_03: But it's like, if this could just be presented as an overall studio thing, don't like I don't think it's a bad thing.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: Don't be afraid of that type of feedback to the studios and the teachers because we're it's just helpful.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's gonna make you better next season.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's gonna make you better overall.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and if my score has to encompass the choreography, the technique, the performance in one score, then my critique should also encompass all of those things.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: I just keep thinking of like, you know, what if we really what if it really was just everything's about the dancer?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, then wouldn't it just be like a talent show?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like the kids were like, I choreographed this cool dance, and that's it.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like the teacher is involved somewhere.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, it's a talent show, and like, good for y'all, that's fun.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, you know, the yes, student choreography is a thing, but in this instance, really, what we're talking about is somebody's in charge of these kids and they're doing what they're told.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's totally true.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: It and you know, in that case, who you're involved, you're their teacher, you're their support system, so it's a community.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: It it's all right, everyone's involved.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I like to hear what the critiques are, I like to know what things are, I like to know what people are saying about my work and what they understand and what they don't get.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, I I feel like I always end up saying this, but like we all have to leave our ego out of it.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's is about the kids, so that means you have to be involved in that as well.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's like parents are like, well, you know, my kids at school, I I know they're misbehaving, but you know, that's just my child, leave me out of it.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: You you're not left out of it, you're their parent.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's there's a connection between all of that.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes you have to hear that there are things that you have to shift in order to parent/slash uh guide this dancer.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: There's no difference.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_03: Attention, all dancers.
• 28:20
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• 28:26
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• 28:29
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• 28:35
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• 28:41
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• 28:48
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• 28:58
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• 29:02
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• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: And even going back to that um the talk about the lyrics and having the wrong emotion when you're performing on stage, I think it's such an interesting discussion because we've all seen that.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_03: You've all seen that executive in different ways, um, like we described.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_03: But like it's funny to me because as a teacher, as the counter in me, most dancers want to dance to the lyrics.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: So, like, are they actually listening to those lyrics when they're dancing to them?
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: Like, do they understand what that word means that they're dancing to?
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_03: Because if they aren't counting and they are choosing to dance to the lyrics, then you should have an even deeper connection emotionally in your performance on what how to portray that lyric throughout your dance.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like, are you mature enough to grasp that?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_03: Is that being discussed in class?
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_03: But like tea, like junior and over, if you're dancing in lyrics, you should know what the lyric means.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_03: And that also goes back to the teacher.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_03: Is this going over their head?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_03: Are they dancing about heartbreak and a a relationship when they're eight years old?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_03: Have they experienced that?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we've talked about that many times where it seems innocent, but also can they even relate to this?
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: Or and then are we we're as a judge, we're sitting, I'm thinking that the whole time.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, right.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, I don't know.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's that plays into what we do as well, is like, okay, you've presented something that on its face seems wrong or above somebody's comprehension level.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then so that is affecting how I'm scoring you because I don't know that you quite understand that.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: So my brain is going a mile a minute, trying to be like, well, could they have had a heartbreak at eight?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe, maybe their dog died.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: Are we applying it to the dog?
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's their grandpa.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'm also like, point your feet, stretch behind your knee.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's a lot.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: For me, I think a lot of times it seems as though when I watch these moments, when they happen in front of me, it becomes clear that the emphasis is about the virtuosity versus the actual song choice.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, interesting.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: Actual intent behind what it is, that they're trying to create dances that are highly competitive.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: Virtuosity is the word, Tommy.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: That is so good.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's why a lot of times they're like, well, it's about the dancer.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's because this the choreographer connects to that as like for themselves, but they're not thinking about what the actual meaning is behind it.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so they're just putting choreography to it.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know that it's obvious when you have these moments that are highly impactful in the songs, and then all of a sudden something super technical comes up, and it's like, wait, why are we turning here when this singer is screaming?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: Or or they're just doing a develop on the floor.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: And you're like, and so it's like, oh, you think that this is about the legs.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's not, it's about the entire picture, it's a performance, and sometimes those things get disconnected.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's why sometimes the choreographers want to disconnect themselves from it or the teacher, because it's about creating something that is competitive versus creating something that is well-rounded for them to do.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because we forget that, like at the end of the day, so many people can give legs, but it's about the artistry as well, and what you can bring to that and the individual versus the actual tricks.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I was just about to say something similar in that, like, I am not the one on stage.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: I keep, I keep trying to emphasize that because when I started out doing choreography and taking kids to competition, you know, I would find things that inspire me.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: But just because it inspires me doesn't mean it inspires those kids.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: And just because maybe I want to do a dance based on something that I experienced doesn't mean it's appropriate or it's on a level that they will understand as a student.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so you have to remember like, who is doing this dance?
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: Who is performing this dance?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: And are they gonna feel the same way about it as you do as a choreographer?
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's I sometimes think, like Tommy said, where the disconnect is, they the choreographer might have this wonderful story, but if the dancer doesn't understand it and connect with it in some way, it's not gonna come across in the right way.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: So they have to remember, I am not on stage dancing.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: These kids are on stage dancing.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's where we need to take a step back sometimes and remember who is doing it.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: Speaking of, I mean, I get this is kind of, and I love this, it's turned into like everyone's emotions, not just the judge's emotions that we're talking about.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: But so that's such a great point because if if you, the choreographer, have these big emotions, which we all do, and here's this experience that I've had that I'm gonna turn into a dance for these kids who haven't had this experience, if they don't understand it, the execution in the performance is gonna fall flat, which then influences me as the watcher, as the audience, or as the judge.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, have you affected me in the way you thought you did?
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then if I give you a score that reflects how you actually affected me, which was, okay, your technique was fine, but the story fell flat, it didn't really read, then you, because you're so connected to it, are gonna feel pretty poorly because your experience was this big, huge emotional thing that you think validates a good score, a higher score, because your emotions are so tied up into it.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: But it it's like literally all full circle, like it starts here, but then it really does end here.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, if it doesn't get produced on dancers that can actually execute it, you're not gonna get the results that you think you should.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then you're gonna be upset about it and you're really gonna be upset at me the judge, when really it's yeah k it comes back to you.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and a lot of it gets distracting, like you said.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: But it gets distracting, like you said.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: You start to your mind starts to think about other things instead of thinking about what you're seeing on stage and judging it appropriately, like technique and things like that.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's why my original statement was if I can see in a dancer that they don't comprehend what they're doing, that's when I start taking the points off.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's the only way that it could be.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I'm like, I have to take my aesthetic out of it.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: I have to take that.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because if they understand even if it does offend me, as long as they are understanding what they're doing, I can't really take points off because everybody has bias.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like, there's so many things that like make me emotional.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, hip-hop dances make me emotional because half the time I'm watching them, I'm like, this is not the roots of hip-hop.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: What is this that we're doing?
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: But that's it's a whole other thing.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so I can't let that affect me.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I have to look at how they're executing it and whether they fully are embodying what it is that they're doing.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: So if I don't see that they're doing that, that does end up on the dancer because and then maybe then the dancer pushes for their teacher to help them to understand it.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: They stop just letting it fly by, and that way, like there becomes a relationship between the dancer, the choreographer, the teacher, where you start to actually think about what you're doing versus just letting whatever happened, happen.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and even what you've said, Leslie, that whole that whole speech about what you just said, I think that is really clear um on the viewer, the audience, and and the judges.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's really clear when this emotional dance that is very connected.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_03: You I can tell when it's when it's more of a teacher or choreographer's choice to present this versus the dancers really want this type of dance.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_03: And most of the time, I rarely feel that this is like a genuine I need to I need to create this art to get my emotions out type of dance on the choreographers.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_03: And it always 98% of the time feels like it's intentional for shock value for a win.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's what that's how it comes across to me as the viewer.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't feel genuine often.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes I've seen them, and usually the genuine ones aren't the in-your-face dances, they're the very subtle, very like they want you to think about it.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_03: They want you to not, you know, it that's that's how they want you to feel as a viewer, and that is art.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_03: But if if you have to throw something in in the face to make sure everyone understands, and it's too literal and it's too direct, and it makes people uncomfortable for the wrong ways.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_03: I'm that to me is saying you you're just trying to get a shock value win.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_03: And that does it, that's not always gonna work.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_03: And like we've had a whole shock value episode, but like I I can I can read y'all real quick as a judge, as an experienced judge.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_03: I I know exactly what you're doing.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: I've been here, I've done that.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I don't like, you know, it's it's different when you see the the right kind of dance that is that makes you feel something emotionally that you can tell is very deep topic, and the dancers understand, like you said, Tommy, that's when it works.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: That's really the only time.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: Those are my favorites when I actually am a little unclear, but you know they know.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, ooh, y'all know what you're talking about.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: I I can think it's 15 different things, but you're so clear on it in your head.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's and that emotionally affects me in a positive way because then I'm thinking about that dance for five more days.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, maybe it was about this.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, maybe it was about it, could have been about this.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, those are great.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_03: The judges are talking, like on a break.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what about that dance?
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_03: What did you think it was about?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_03: Like, that's what you want.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you don't you don't want to be like, oh my gosh, that one dance was made me feel like I I felt like a pit in my stomach, like I was gonna throw up watching because it was it made me so uncomfortable.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_03: Like I felt that there have been many times where I've had to like turn my head down and stop watching a dance because of what was going through my head and and how uncomfortable it made me feel.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_03: And it is so hard.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_03: I'm telling you, if anyone is like, well, how you you you shouldn't be judging then if that's how you feel.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_03: You shouldn't be judging our emotions, be our guests come do this.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if you're trying to say that, come on do this.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: People have no idea what it is like to sit there.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: And because most people are watching, but they're not actually watching.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: There's a difference between things, but actually sitting and processing and actually like analyzing and trying to block out everything else that's happening.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: The cowbells and the screaming and the people's phones and the flashes that are coming for the people taking pictures.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much brain power and like focus that goes into what we do if we're trying to do it well, which I think a lot of us are.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so I guess my this is a really good segue into, you know, I think all of us have been doing this a long time.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember back when I first started, the most triggering, I don't like the word triggering, but the most like emotionally affecting dances that I would see would be like a Schindler's List dance.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: So where I I I was used to kind of, okay, Schindler, here's a Schindler's List dance.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna I'm prepared.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: I know what to expect.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: And now I feel like you see a whole lot of other things regularly, like you said, Courtney, that are kind of being shoved down our throat in terms of here's here's this really, really harsh subject matter that we're gonna put on stage because we're trying to make a point.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: Does anybody have any sort of this is mainly for the judges, like for the judges listening, like a pre-event ritual or some way that you walk into event and an event, kind of mentally and emotionally preparing yourself for what you might see because you don't know anymore.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's not just the one sad Schindler's list dance anymore.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's a lot that comes at us every weekend.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: And you don't you literally don't know because anybody can title a dance anything.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you look at a dance and it comes on stage and it's called, you know, flowers on the street.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: And who knows what's coming?
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: Who knows what's coming?
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: You don't know.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a lot on your um nervous system.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: For me, when I'm judging, and if you've ever seen me judge, there's always music playing in between the song, the between the dances.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: I I literally shake it off every single time.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: All I do is I'll wiggle, I'll dance, I'll get in my back inside of my body, I'll take myself out of what I just saw, no matter what it is, because I don't want my emotions from that piece to affect the next piece.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I bring I ground myself by dancing, by going back to what I love.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, all right, good beat.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: Here we go, here we go, here we go.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: And welcome to the stage.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then once that's over, I start wiggling out again.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: And some people might think that's annoying, but that's the best way that I know how to keep my to separate each piece from itself, because it's the only way that I can see what's in front of me in that moment.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one of the things that I like to do.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_03: That's a such a great point, Tommy, because I feel like that the the filler music in between is crucial to like our experience and everyone's experience.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, filler music needs to exist in between dances no matter what.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a lot of comps that like keep it awkward and silent.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_03: But when I hear like a bop come on in between, it just takes me into a different mindset of what I just watched.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_03: And like you said, be that buffer to lead in.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_03: And it it it lets me, all right, I'm gonna punch in my score.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'm damning.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like I I love that.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_03: But sometimes if it's like not a bop that I could care less about, I'm still stuck in that.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_03: Like, wow, what did I just watch?
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_03: You know, so I think it's important for comps to make sure they have like some kind of fun bop in between that like people know and familiar with that could be helpful.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and that helps the next dancer because if they have to follow a dance that just like emotionally affected the whole audience, like and it was in a positive way, but just like just one of those dances, like you always have to, when that dance is over, it's done.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_02: You have to like move on.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that that in-between music helps me.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: It probably helps those next dancers.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like, okay, I'm done.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: I got to get over that.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_02: And now there's a brand new dance on stage.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: They deserve my a hundred percent attention.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I should not be thinking about the dance that just went.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, like to help them, I'm sure it that that helps everybody all the way across the board, that music for sure, I think.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that was a great, a great point, Tommy.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: I love that because I kind of when you started saying that, I was like, yeah, I kind of do like listen to that in-between music.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: And that's when I'm like preparing myself for the next dance and trying to get that dance that I just saw out of my brain a little bit so I can focus.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't really have any other things that I do necessarily.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_02: I remember one time when I this was maybe my second year judging, and I was very new and fresh.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: And not, um, I didn't have all this experience of how to do that and how to prepare myself.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so I didn't really pay much attention.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: And all of a sudden, there's a a prop on stage, a picture, a man in a uniform on a stool.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I look up and I thought, oh no.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: My husband actually was deployed at the time.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so this dance particularly was about a girl who lost her father in the service.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I didn't know what to do.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so I tried my best to focus on the technique and separate a little bit, um, separate myself from the storyline.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: She was obviously it was about her and her life.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_02: You could tell that it was not the teacher's life.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it was very well emotionally executed.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: And at one point during the dance, I just said, you know what?
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_02: I can't, I don't want to give you a lot of technical correction.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to see you enjoy this moment and this and this dance that you're doing as a tribute.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes I feel like as judges, that's okay to do if it's that sort of dance.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_02: You do your best to give them technical, you know, advice, but sometimes it's not even, it's more than that.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not even about that anymore.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's just her getting her emotions out, like it was said earlier, to to kind of work through this.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I found out afterward that yet her father had passed.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_02: And um, because at the end of the dance, she picks up a note that basically says what happened and she tears it up and she just the passion that came out of her at that moment, like you just stop judging at that point and you just sit and absorb.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so I've learned a lot from that experience on like trying to focus when something emotionally gets me, trying to focus more, like look solely at technique, you know, and try to focus on that because they do pay to be there and they do pay for our adjudication.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so I want to give that to them, but sometimes it just goes way past that and you can't emotionally.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so, and it luckily that was toward the end of a session.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_02: There was only one or two more left, but it took a lot for me to focus on those last few because of the way I was emotionally affected.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: And it was a good way, it wasn't a distracting way.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'll never forget that.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I learned a lot from that experience, but it was it's hard to work through sometimes stuff like that.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so that that in-between music does help you shake off and refocus, I think a lot.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's something, Tommy, I'm actually gonna take with me now too.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for that.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: A little jig in between.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like um I've I've definitely been there and it's it's tough.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's really tough.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_03: I I I specifically remember an event.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I was doing live feedback.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_03: I think it was Diva Dance Competition, IDA comp, and we do live feedback on the God mic immediately after, kind of like American Idol style, for anybody that's listening that's unfamiliar.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_03: We're not doing a regular critique during the dance, so it's kind of nice that we can just take it in and watch and just take notes and things.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_03: But like I remember a dance and it wasn't even it was a fine dance.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_03: I don't they weren't giving it like a hundred percent emotion, like they weren't truly connected to this to it, but like the theme was some like a death of some sort and going to heaven.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_03: And it it got me because of the week before my grandfather passed away.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like, I mean, of course, no one can uh know that about your judges.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_03: You're not like following their life, but like that hit me so hard where I halfway through my head, my brain wasn't even in the dance, and I felt horrible because I want to do my job, but it prevented me from doing my job because of my personal experiences in life at that time in my life.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I just I literally I had I was sitting there crying, couldn't even get the words to give my live critique.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_03: Luckily, I was like, Can you guys can someone else take this one?
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_03: I just can't.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I asked for a beat after, like I couldn't go right back to my job.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's important for people to understand.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like when when these emotional dances are coming to stage and like you are your goal, the dancers are affected, the teacher is affected.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_03: Are you hoping your audience isn't uh affected?
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_03: Because most likely they will be regardless if it's done well or not.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_03: That song might be a song that they connect to in a way that they have a history with.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you just never know what's going to impact.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_03: And like, yes, that's why that's why our job is so hard.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like sitting here, uh all of us talking right now, we need to get paid so much more.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_03: We need to have like therapy on Mondays post-competition.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_03: Therapy.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_03: We need to sleep.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_03: We need to have sleep deprivation.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like, we have like it's just so many things that they that we're expected on our job to be like.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think we need therapy dogs at each other.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, speaking of therapy, like if you're a listener to the podcast, you know I've been in therapy for years.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: I finished this year with my therapist of nine years, who interestingly enough, has a daughter who, when when I started in therapy, was just like two.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: She was little, she wasn't dancing.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: And over the years, she has blossomed into a lovely dancer, goes to a really competitive studio.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: But my therapist, you know, she knew what I did for a living and she kind of understood before her daughter was a competitive dancer.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I would tell her, you know, I'd come back.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: My therapy was always on Wednesdays, so I would have a couple days to decompress, and then I'd come in, and you know, that was sometimes part of our conversation.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then she went to a dance competition and she was, so we came back the next week and she was like, Leslie, I you you've explained it to me, but I had no idea.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like the sensory overload, the things you have to watch, the fact that you can't go to the bathroom, like she, all these things.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: And she was like, I really, I understand now.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, Yeah, people just don't get it unless you are in there and you understand.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, I think everybody needs therapy, even if not just for dance competition season.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yes, it's a lot.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_02: And and what I did do too on that critique, and I I did tell the dancer what was going through my mind.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like I told her, you know, I appreciate the fact that you're very connected to this.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: It is affecting me because my husband's in the service.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so I apologize if I'm not as talkative.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so I think they and and I feel like she was doing it for more than just a dance competition.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so you can tell when they're when they're really doing it for more than that.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: And don't be surprised, listeners.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you've ever had me for a judge, there's oh, many, many critiques that I've done the same thing.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry I'm not talking, and my voice is breaking.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry I'm not talking very much right now, but this is such a beautiful execution of this story, and I'm just going to listen.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: Or sorry, I'm crying through your entire critique.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, these things happen and it's the goal.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it is the goal.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like when when you've made me cry in a good way, and there's value in that as well.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing wrong with not getting critiques.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: There is sometimes you need to know that you are affecting somebody in a way that is so great that all you want to do is watch them.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's value in that.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's for you to take that moment in and realize that you have power to dig into the whatever it is that you felt in that moment to try and find that.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: Not make it exactly the same, but just to try and find that and try and find that throughout more things.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's good to know that a critique doesn't necessarily mean something negative.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's the thing.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like that there's value to all of that information.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that sometimes people forget that.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a really, really good thing to want to just be watched because ultimately I always say whenever I give that critique, I'm like, when I go see a Broadway show, I'm not sitting there going, Well, are you pointing your toes?
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: Are you doing this?
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: And when I go to a concert dance, I'm not saying that.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sitting, I'm watching, I'm enjoying.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: You should be at a place where I'm not thinking about any of your technique.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm experiencing whatever it is that you're trying to do.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: You don't go to a museum and critique the paintings.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: You experience what's there.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's the ultimate goal.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you need to know when you're there because that's a blessing.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's when you've arrived.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_02: I've said a lot of times that means so much more than technique.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_03: I've literally said that as a judge.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, I'm sorry if I'm not saying anything right now.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_03: I am loving everything that's happening.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_03: Uh there, there are some technical things I could be critiquing, but I'm really enjoying taking this experience in right now.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I just want to let you know.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'll just chime in and because they're gonna be like, well, why is my technique score lower?
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I'm not even like I can see there's things, but that doesn't even matter to me right now.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm just loving what is happening, and that should be okay.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_03: And don't be upset when you have a few points off on your technical score.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_03: Because I told you there were some things and you should know what they are.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_03: You know what they are.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like you know.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: Don't act like you didn't know when you look at the good, you're gonna know that you were off.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_00: You weren't on your leg.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: And please, I can tell by the way you're dancing, you know the difference.
• 52:43
  unknown: Right.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_03: Cause like I feel like oftentimes as judges, we're here to just like reiterate for the dancers.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_03: But like there's a lot of times where I'm not sure if some things I say have even been mentioned to the dancers, you know, and that's a hard, that's a fine line of learning that throughout the weekend as we see the studios come back in, and it's like, all right, so what sh what can I really give them that's gonna help them versus just spitting out the same critiques that your teacher says?
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_03: And like every every every studio is different.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_03: Every some studios are like, please keep saying that because I've said it to my dancers a million times.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_03: And if they hear it from the judge, they'll do it.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_03: That's great.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_03: But also, like, I I want to know that that's being told.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_03: I need, I want to know that we're we're focusing on that in class.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_03: And that way I can offer more than just the same corrections that your teacher's already giving you.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's like the other point, too, as a judge, is to be that second set of eyes to dig a little bit deeper because the the stretch your legs, point your feet, uh watch your timing.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_03: Like those are generic critiques that like the teacher should have already fixed.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_03: So if you hear that 24-7, like I can't even go further because that's not fixed.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: So exactly.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_03: Oh it's a fine line as a judge to kind of approach it in the right way and uh get the point across for the dancers, but also not feel like a broken record because how many times does the same studio come out and we see the same technical flaws?
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like, is that what you want us to talk about the whole time?
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_03: Or can I talk about other things too?
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_03: Because there's a lot of other things I can talk about.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's very tricky, and that's actually that's what affects me emotionally.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, me too.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_00: More than anything.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's not even it's when I see something happening so often that I'm just like, there is this thing that you all don't see, and I sing it over and over again, and it starts to affect me because I want them to really understand it.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then I start getting you can even tell now that I'm starting to get emotional about talking about it because I want them to know it's just this one thing.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: If you would just focus on that, shift that, please shift that.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, shift that because I'm seeing it and saying it so much that it, yeah.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_02: Or another thing that that emotionally affects me or distracts me even is sometimes when you know competitors come out with three solos, a lyrical, an open, and a contemporary, and they're all basically the same.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I keep saying the same things over and over.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_02: I know you haven't heard my critiques yet, but I start to get angry, like I'm saying these same things.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm tired.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'm tired of saying the same thing.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_02: They're seeing you do the same things.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_02: Show me some other things, you know, like show me, I don't know.
• 55:24
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• 55:46
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• 56:06
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• 56:28
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• 56:34
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• 56:48
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• 56:58
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• 57:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and you know that anger is not angry at the technique that's happening.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: We have to also like just clarify that because there's so many things that does happen.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_00: The problem is that you're doing the same thing over and over again.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you doing three of the same thing?
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_00: It does not benefit you to do three of the same things.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's why it's emotionally jarring.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, do a jazz solo or do a something else.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_00: Don't do the same solo over and over again and then do the same things over.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't benefit you as a dancer to do the same thing over and over again.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_00: Especially when you're practicing for me, it affects you emotionally.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_03: When you're practicing incorrect technique while doing the same thing over again.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that's that's the frustrating part for us because it's like, yeah, ah, I was really hoping you were gonna give me something different.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_03: Nope, you're still gonna do that same turn sequence with that low releve, that low passe, and I have to say it again because you're not gonna understand my technique score, and I don't know when you're when you that's the thing that I always tell people is like, we're there all weekend, we get to know your studio all weekend.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_03: The goal is to critique each thing individually, score each thing individually, but like like we as judges have just expressed, it's hard for us to be in the same mindset about your studio on day one as we are on day three.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_01: It is very solo one and solo three when they look exactly the same to you.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's so hard to not let our emotions get in the way.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't want to, I don't, I really, really don't want to.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_03: I'm trying so hard, but I'm telling you, it is it until you've done it, it it is very hard to do.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I always tell people like And then do it 12 weekends in a row.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, maybe try listening to the critiques in order.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_03: I know that's impossible, but like you'll hear different tones because sometimes you'll be like, Oh, I already, you know, go back to that jazz dance.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_03: I I mentioned that exact same thing.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_03: Because I don't want to waste my time repeating it again.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's such a fine line.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: It really is.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's very tricky and it's really hard.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it's something that we are literally navigating live in the moment trying to figure out the best way to say this to you without sounding angry, because we're not angry.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_00: We all we want is for the bet is for you to be at your best.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it's frustrating, especially like when you see it, not just one student that does that, but then there's like four or five that are doing the same pattern over and over again, and it's it's just not helpful.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and even if it's sometimes like I there's a student that I've watched for years and years, and she is lovely.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, she's lovely.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_01: She her every single solo I have ever seen contains the exact same formula of things, and it's all lovely, but it's literally the same, and there's nothing else I can say.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_01: That was a beautiful tumbling pass, that was a beautiful turn sequence, and that is all I can because there's it's just nothing new, and that's that is a critique, you know, and like that's it.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_03: That's on the teacher's end at that point.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's not the dancer's fault, but then we can't, but then it's like, okay, teacher, I'd like to challenge you to like give so and I've actually done that before and I've gotten in trouble saying that.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_03: Want a non-teacher critique.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_03: I've because there was a dancer that was so good, and I was like, she is be she is ready for more.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I I love this dancer.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_03: I love watching her.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_03: We're playing it too safe for her.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't say it like that, but that's what's going on in my head.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_03: So then I was like, I want to help them.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_03: Like maybe that maybe that'll inspire them to try something different next season when I see them.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I wanna, I want to tell this dancer, like, I believe in you and I think you're ready for more.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_03: That's a compliment.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_03: That is not a negative, but the teacher took offense to it because I said it was, you know, and and what I don't know, I thought that was the nice thing to say.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like the dancer was scoring first place overall.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_03: It wasn't like I docked points.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_03: I was just saying, like, let's take some more risks, let's challenge this dancer even more in a because they're ready.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't say that to everyone.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_03: I rarely say that to anyone, but it's because I kind of seen them a bunch and you know, I've seen their progress as a senior.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_00: In those instances, exactly whenever those things happen, I always go back to what it what what's happening.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, what's the music?
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, you're doing the same dance, but the music's not the same.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_00: So how can you take the same steps and change them?
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_05: Yep.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_00: And now I know that you're just dancing, you're just being you're going back to virtuosity, you're not actually doing it because I could turn this song off and I would not know it's the song.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to go back to what it is that you're bringing to it.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, that's why, like I said, that's the one thing that I try and focus on because it it kind of it like encapsules all of the things.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, at the end of the day, it's like you did that same solo, but it shouldn't be the same because the song's different.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_00: And you know it shouldn't be the same.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_00: So are you doing that?
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, I'm gonna take points off now.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I can and I have receipts for that because I know you're not listening to the song.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_03: And some people have asked, like, um, when it comes to the multiple solo thing, and we've talked touched on this slightly in other episodes, but and I don't know, I'd love to hear y'all's perspective, but like, is your score the same for all three if they're if the solos are similar?
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_03: Does the score get lower the more times they come out?
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what are how does that affect?
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_03: Does it affect your scoring?
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think I think subconsciously it affects my scoring because each time they come out, I find more and more things that I can deduct for.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's not like just one time they're out and I'm analyzing their technique or their performance or things like that.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_02: But then the second time, I know what I said the first time.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_02: So let me look further into and I know what to look for from the first time.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so like it almost goes down the more times you come out, unless you blow me away with a completely different style and a completely different dance, then it's a little different.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_02: But if you're doing the similar solos, I almost find more to take off more because I've seen you already.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, it's same for me.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_00: Unless you are able to shift something and I've seen it, and then it becomes well, uh, I start to analyze it more.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm not in it as much as I can be, if I'm drawn into looking at the same thing over and over again, naturally, it's impossible not to see something more than once and not to dig in deeper.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_00: That is impossible.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it the score has to shift up or down based off of what happens.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's impossible not to do that.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, sometimes mine just lives.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I would much rather see a dancer do less dances and do them like to the best of their ability than spread themselves thin.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_02: And that goes for groups too.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of times where there's groups that you're just interchanging one or two dancers, but basically doing the same thing.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_02: And again, I'm like, I just saw this like four or five dances ago.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_02: You're doing the same, you know, genre with almost the same dances, same dancers.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you went from a large group to a small group, but it's the same.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_02: And it's this a similar choreography, it's similar type of feel to the dance.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'd much rather take those out and just focus and do something really, really great than spread yourself too thin and experience different genres, even if it's not your best genre.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_02: Do it anyways, because that's how you're gonna get better.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so, like emotionally, I'm thinking, gosh, this is I hate to say it, but sometimes I just get bored with the same things over and over with the same dancers.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_02: So then I'm thinking, okay, let's pick it apart more.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I'd much rather you do two completely different dances and like experience that and work on that to get better at different areas you're not good at.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_03: And like do different styles within the styles.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_03: Like if you have to have a large group contemporary and you have to have a small group contemporary with more select dancers, then challenge them in different styles of contemporary if you're going to do that.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like, we don't need cookie-cutter duplicate robot formula dances.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like, there's lots of styles within the styles that we can be challenging our dancers instead of and like even that's a challenge to the choreographer, too.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like, yes, as choreographers, we have our own distinct style, but what are you what can you do to change it up?
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_03: What can you do to not have it be another gestural contemporary dance?
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_03: Because that's your signature.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_03: That's great.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe we need to collab with another teacher and like change it up and get some more to make it different for the the experience for the dancers.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_03: Because if it's about the dancers, then it shouldn't be about you.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_03: It should be about the dancers and what that's what we're over here talking about.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_03: We have to score for the dancers, we have to score, you know.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_03: Know it's all about them, then make it about them.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like we've mentioned that many times.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about well, ding, ding, ding, ding, Courtney.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_00: This is my choreography.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_00: Ding ding ding ding ding.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_04: You know, it's it's hard.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_04: It's I don't I don't you go.
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, in it out.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_04: Ugh agreed.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_04: I could talk about this all day.
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so good.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's true.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's I love it.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_03: I do have one final question.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_03: So I feel like that, and I feel this very often, and especially lately, because I've been judging some amazing talent lately.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_03: First place, second place, third place.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_03: Oftentimes, a lot of people we always hear a lot of people say it's just the judges' opinions, three different judges, three different outcomes, you know, that type of speech that we hear all the time.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_03: Do you feel like that's true?
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_03: Do you feel like that if it was a different panel, the first, second, third could be different?
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_03: Do you and do you think that's the same three people, probably?
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, within the same same three people.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think you're pulling sixth place into second place with a different panel of judges.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_01: I I I would hope.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, it depends on who your judges are.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_03: It could, because it depends on if it's like musical theater judges versus like more contemporary-based judges versus more like competition-based judges.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, unfortunately, a lot of people's personal aesthetics do get involved in judging.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I've been judging for long.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_00: I know that I it's something that I've had to get out of.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's taken me a it takes me, it takes a while to actually do that.
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's not something that just happens overnight.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, it's really hard to see things for what they are, and it's a different thing at all different competitions because there's also different groups of people there.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's different ways that it can turn into something else.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_00: Some competitions are like really tactical dancers, some competitions are dancers that have really great performers.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it literally, it's you just never know what you're gonna get.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's really hard to like to figure that out or to know.
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_02: Especially within genres too.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like um recently I was judging a competition and they have a like a dance-off at the end where the top scoring groups recompete against each other, and you have to, instead of giving them scoring, you have to basically rank them.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_02: Each judge ranks them the way they want to finish, basically.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_02: And it's truly like comparing apples to oranges at that point because all three could have been first place, they were all so amazing in their own ways, but it's like you have a full-blown jazz production versus a small group lyrical that was so well executed, and then you have like a musical theater.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_02: And each of them, like I said, were just amazing in their own ways.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's hard at that point to then say, okay, who deserves first place?
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because they all did.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_02: They all truly did.
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_02: And again, they were all genres, all sizes, and what you feel from a jazz production, that energy level and the screaming and the height versus the emotion from that lyrical and how it was just so stunning versus just a fun, just well choreographed 100% in musical theater.
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's, I mean, at that point, you kind of just have to go with your gut and say, which did you just like the best?
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_02: And instead of boiling it down to different types of technical execution and things, it's just, and so then it goes back to your point.
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, if you had three different judges, it might have been a completely different outcome because each judge had to just decide which they liked better.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_02: And everyone has their own preference.
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_02: So it was it was hard to choose.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_02: And you feel bad because you do want second and third place to know, like you guys were incredible, but you're forced to choose.
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's your job, and you just have to go with your gut.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_00: For me, with in those situations, I've always told my students we've never focused on first, second, or third ever for that exact reason.
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_00: We've always focused on how we affect people and what it brings out and how we feel with what we're doing.
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because at the end of the day, there's like sometimes where we win, there's times where we don't, there's times where the coordinator is picked, there's times where it's like people completely don't get it.
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_00: But when their parents are like, oh my God, I love watching that dance, it's so good.
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's the point at the end of the day.
• 1:10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, because it's just somebody's opinion, it's about how you affect people.
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're in the level of being first, second, and third and you're worried about whether you're getting first and you're worried about the wrong thing.
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_00: The fact that you are able to produce something that is to be up there is what it is.
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like somebody's gonna win the award.
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_00: You have to remember you're actually in the fight.
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's the good part.
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_00: The fact that you're actually affecting people, you're in the fight, that's all that matters.
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_00: It is a toss-up, it is opinions, and it's different.
• 1:10:59
  SPEAKER_00: People like different things, and that's what's so great.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_00: But the fact that you're in the arena and that you're doing it is what's really great.
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's all that matters.
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's a great point.
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_02: It is.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like I there have been many times where like with first, second, third, when the talent is amazing and it's like tenths of points that is really separating uh these top five or top three dancers.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_03: I as the judge, I'm like, I wonder who's gonna get it.
• 1:11:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I I don't even know because I know who I want, but I don't know who the other judges want.
• 1:11:29
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't know where the chips are gonna fall and how the score is going to overall lay.
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_03: And it's it truly is like when it's that cutthroat, like two tenths of points.
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_03: It is a preference thing, I think.
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, well, maybe the jet maybe this person liked that jazz choreography better, or maybe this person loved that performance quality better, or maybe this per this judge liked the way that this dancer's execution was and the uh extensions were strong.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_03: Like, whatever it is, each judge can probably say what they liked about why they gave it a first overall dance, but the three judges might not be on the same page, and that's when the score just kind of lets it determine determine it.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like at my old age of judging for as long as I have, like I used to be somebody who would like fight tooth and nail for something that if if there was ever a choice or if there was ever a collaboration where we all had to decide, like, I'm fighting for I'm not anymore because the score, it is what it is that day.
• 1:12:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm yeah, that yeah, y'all are all great.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_01: Go forward.
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like I can't, it's it's for it's not that serious, first of all, because this is a dance competition.
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the it's not life, it's not the way things actually operate in the real world.
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I have allowed myself that peace to step back because as a judge, you know, it's sometimes it's not that peaceful if you have a lot of opinionated people on your panel and you're just fighting constantly.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_01: And but all the val all the fights are valid, and that's also the problem is that like I can be fighting with Tommy about like I think this aesthetic is better than that one, and but yours is really good too.
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_01: But I I feel so strongly like I can't fight with you about that.
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_01: You're also right.
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_01: We're both right.
• 1:13:01
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the best part about what we're talking about right now is that we're literally fighting we're not we're talking about fighting tooth and nail at the end about these pieces.
• 1:13:13
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't say it was about how many pirouettes they were doing.
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about the feeling, the aesthetic.
• 1:13:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's important that like we just make the point that it's so important that you really work with your dancers about what it is that they're accomplishing and making sure that they are actually accomplishing the task at hand because that's what it comes down to at the end.
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:13:33
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's literally all we're talking about.
• 1:13:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and like I said earlier, like if if you would like AI to judge your dance and say, this was great execution of your 15 pirouettes, okay, but they're not gonna be able to say this move me in a way that is gonna affect me for the rest of the week.
• 1:13:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what we can do as humans.
• 1:13:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know if anybody was out there trying to get AI to judge their dance.
• 1:13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Don't because it's not gonna work.
• 1:13:57
  SPEAKER_02: And there's over the past 12 years, there's probably a couple handfuls of dances that I will remember forever.
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I consistently refer back to them, just like the one I experienced one of my first years of judging that I told you about, or there's some that just touch me in such a way that I'm just like, wow, like that's more than a dance competition.
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's like that's more life experiences that they're bringing to the stage that have affected me.
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_02: And that's when I, you know, can sit in peace at the judging table and just absorb.
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I say that on my critique, like we talked about earlier.
• 1:14:37
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just a peaceful feeling at that moment.
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_02: So that's when the distractions all go away and you're just in the moment with them.
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_03: We hope you enjoyed this week's episode all about how emotions affect scoring for judges at competition.
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_03: Be sure to follow our IDA judges on social media.
• 1:14:59
  SPEAKER_03: You can find Tommy at Tommy Toes7 and Rachel at Rachel Ben.
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Don't forget to follow Making the Impact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Podcasts, and pretty much everywhere you listen to podcasts.
• 1:15:13
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• 1:15:20
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• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_01: Join now at Impact DanceAjudicators.com slash Platinum Premium or click the link in our show notes.
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_03: Ready to take your competition dance to the next level?
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_03: Looking for a fresh set of eyes to critique your solo?
• 1:15:41
  SPEAKER_03: Then say hello to IDA's online judges critiques.
• 1:15:45
  SPEAKER_03: Simply send us a video of your dance, whether it's from an in-studio rehearsal or an on-stage performance, and our judges will take it from there.
• 1:15:53
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• 1:16:00
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• 1:16:04
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• 1:16:15
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• 1:16:21
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• 1:16:30
  SPEAKER_03: Prices start at only$35 per critique and are available year round.
• 1:16:34
  SPEAKER_03: Visit our website to learn more and submit your dance now at Impact DanceEdjudicators.com slash online critiques.
• 1:16:41
  SPEAKER_03: Get ready to wow the judges at your next competition after using IDA's Online Judges critiques.
• 1:16:47
  SPEAKER_03: We can't wait to see your dance.
• 1:16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Coming up next in season five of Making the Impact, stay tuned for tips on changing studios, an episode all about ballet and transitioning from competitive dancer to professional dancer.
• 1:17:01
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for listening to Making the Impact.
• 1:17:03
  SPEAKER_03: We'll see you next week.
• 1:17:05
  SPEAKER_03: Until then, keep dancing.