Latest / Firefighter Nation Podcast / The Science Behind Female-Specific Firefighting PPE
Transcript
- speaker-0: Hey there everybody, this is Pete Proquila with Fire Engineering. Today we're taking a closer look at structural firefighting PPE design for women and how Viking Fire and Rescue is approaching that issue. Now historically most women firefighters have worn PPE design for men, but that may not be the optimal approach either in terms of comfort or functionality. ⁓ if you haven't yet read the article Mobility is safety, the science behind PPE for women, that's from our July issue in fire engineering. Be sure to check it out. We'll also link it up here in the description below so you can read it if you haven't yet. ⁓ today we are here with ⁓ Viking Fire and Rescue Chief Designer Camila Callison and firefighter Kendall Taylor to discuss the research, engineering, and field testing behind the Viking ⁓ Valkyrie. So can you tell us ⁓ a little bit about ⁓ yourselves and how you got involved with this work? speaker-1: My name is Camilla. Many years ago, I started working as a design engineer for Viking. And the main goal is to make perfect gear for firefighters. speaker-2: Yeah, so I am Kendall Taylor and like you said, ⁓ actually just medical retired, so I'm retired firefighter, but I was fortunate enough ⁓ four years ago next month, Viking came to Tulsa Fire Department as one of the cities to test out Valkyrie and lucky enough to get stuck with us. So I I mean I was lucky. I got to work with them for three and a half years and they kind of came down about every six months or so and we told them everything that we liked or didn't like and they made all the changes that we asked for and now I'm even luckier because I run a female organization called Oklahoma Woman on Fire. We run girls' firefighter camps, they s Viking sponsors that camp and then I get to go around to conferences and see the absolute shock on girls' faces when they try the gear on. speaker-1: The idea was to make something that was different from what you actually have available today. Working with firefighters, we see a lot of different scenarios. We see a lot of different body types. We see a lot of different challenges. And our goal is to make it ⁓ better for them to do their job. It's not just about manufacturing firefighter gear. It's also about firefighters needs and risks and challenges and all these solutions to come into one garment that they could actually. put their lives in. It's about protection, comfort, mobility and confidence. There so many areas that we need to observe when we go out and talk to firefighters. And what we saw in the beginning was not all female firefighters actually knew what was possible for us to do to change because when we saw them in the current gear, ⁓ it was just like... Kendall, you said it many times, it was just like you were used to having it. So you didn't see that there was actually areas that we could improve things that we could be working on. How did they fit together with all the accessory parts that you use from other manufacturers? But observing and looking how you actually use the garments makes it a valuable input. input in our job, in what we do. ⁓ There's so many ⁓ observations just looking at what you actually do in your test facilities when you're training. ⁓ Yeah, many, many, many things and we're still learning from the female firefighters and male firefighters that we talked to. speaker-0: So as we were saying ⁓ earlier, you know, i previously historically ⁓ women firefighters are wearing designs that are typically adapted th from patterns that are used for design for men. So what's what's what are the some of the problems with that and ⁓ how how what what is the current approach, you know, that you see, you know, with other perhaps ⁓ you know PPE designs? speaker-2: So I will talk for that one just because I wore another manufacturer's brand for almost ten years. And kinda like Camilla said, I mean, you know, you get on the back of a truck and you wear you wear the gear that's given to you. You don't ask questions, that's just what you wear. So, you know, I'm five four and I mean I'm not a small girl, I'm 160 pounds, but I'm very broad shouldered. So I always ended up having to get a much bigger size coat, but I don't have a big waist. So then I would have Just all of this fabric that would get caught up in my SCBA. You know, your the crotch of your pants tends to hang to your knees, so you can't raise your leg to step into the truck. I mean, there's just all kinds of little things. ⁓ not being able to reach your pocket because your coat's so long on your pants, or your coat is so long you can't reach the pocket on your pants. So there's so many things, and it's just wild to me to see girls' reactions to putting Valkyrie on. They're just like, I have so many video clips of faces of people just I mean, girls just shocked that it fits the way that it does. speaker-0: So making it smaller was not like the solution, right? Like g getting a smaller, tighter fit. That's kind of that didn't do it for you in terms of the other gear. speaker-1: You cannot make the same gear for male firefighters or for female firefighters as you do for male firefighters. We are built different from each other and ⁓ also studying measurements across the world. When you look at the American firefighters, The anatomy is different too. ⁓ You would never make the same ⁓ garment for an Asian market as you do it for the American market. We are built differently and that should be incorporated in proper gear. ⁓ When you buy underwear or you buy training gear, ⁓ work-up gear, they're also designed differently. Of course, you can buy unisex, but if you want to have clothes that fits well, that performs with your body, then it should be incorporated in your workwear also. ⁓ There are many, many, studies on sizes and measurements on female. patterning and that is what we are trying to incorporate in everything that we do. We would never make the same garment for Scandinavian market as we do for American firefighters because they are trained differently and the layer compositions, the materials are different. The way that they attach accessories are different. The way that they train I think are different too from what we see. ⁓ but you could never perform the same way if you don't have proper gear. So that is what all this was about, studying the female anatomy and have it made for female. speaker-2: I don't think female firefighters realize how hard we have to fight our gear before we ever actually have to work on the job. And we don't realize it until we have gear we don't have to fight. speaker-1: And also some of the studies that we actually looked into was also injuries. We're looking into the studies because I don't think all the injuries was actually reported from female firefighters. They just lived with it. But we needed to understand where they actually got injured to see what we could do. ⁓ Many female firefighters, maybe also men. ⁓ They are having difficulties with their hip areas and the shoulders. They put a lot of strength in what they do every single day. just to fight that garment, as Kendall said, is not the best that we could do. So that was taken on the consideration also when making new garments, new pattern. speaker-0: It sounds like it was not just a question of just comfort and mobility, but it it has operational, you know, impacts in terms of ⁓ just how how folks are using it and able to move on the fire ground. So how did Viking ⁓ approach this issue specifically? What steps did you all undertake when it came to ⁓ doing these designs? speaker-1: In the beginning, it was mostly reading about ⁓ injuries, measurements, ⁓ was things that came up when searching online. It was planning ⁓ a little trip across the country to talk to firefighters just to see what they actually had today and finding out where we could improve because if you're not an active firefighter, ⁓ But working with the garments, you need a lot of information in order to make sure that you actually aim high enough for solutions. It's easy to make ⁓ just small changes to make it work. ⁓ But we made a decision that if we're going into this, we wanted to make it from ground, we wanted to start with just a square, we wanted to make sure that the materials, where would we put the reinforcements, how should they be working, how should the pockets be designed, how should the ⁓ suspenders, could we design them so they would feel better, so they wouldn't slide over the shoulders. There were so many areas to just speaker-2: Adjustable waist strap. speaker-1: investigate before we could actually start making patents. The first prototype that we took across the country was not perfect, but it was a way to making female firefighters aware that we were trying to do something different and just to have them. talk about what they actually were missing in their daily work and what was challenging for them. It's all about safety and if you don't dress them in the right clothes, It's easy to make longer or shorter sleeves, but you need to have them made in a way that they actually are divided into the right panels. You have to be sure that you grade them in right way because when you grow bigger, also your shoulder width grows bigger, but that can be different for men and women as well. So you need to make sure that you actually grade them in the right way. ⁓ So there are many ways to work with these calculations to make sure that you actually fit everyone from short to tall, from small to a little bit larger. ⁓ But all panels, all these tiny ⁓ fabric pieces that put together to one garment need to be graded in a certain way to make sure that they actually fit the women that will be wearing the garments. So I don't think unless you actually work with this every single day that you actually know how much you put into this because it's also about the smoothness in the way that you will make your lines. It's how they're supposed to be curved in the right way over your shoulders or making the right ease. We also looked into how much ease should you actually put in. around your chest and your belly area, your hips, your shoulders, ⁓ everything so that we would be sure that we have the right thermal protection for the female fighters, but without having unnecessary fabric because that was the biggest issue that we heard from them. speaker-0: So it sounds like this was not this was not just a piecemeal adaptation, but the Viking actually went back to the drawing board and said, We're gonna create these these designs from scratch. We're gonna learn, you know, we're gonna take all this research and information and just start from scratch and build make this purpose built for women firefighters rather than just, you know, piecemeal ad adaptation. speaker-1: Of course, we also looked into what was already available on the market, but we didn't find anyone actually doing this in the proper way, building it from the ground. speaker-0: ⁓ Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: Well and as the firefighter side of it, I know female firefighters. It was it's a great feeling to us to see a company that is actually showing us that we belong, if if that makes sense at all. I mean, because it you know, it's not an easy spot to be in in the fire service as a female and I feel like a big portion is focused on men and to have a company that let us be the spotlight and we were who they were focusing on. That tells female firefighters a lot right there. speaker-0: So Camilla, can you tell us a little bit more about the science and engineering behind the fit? Like ⁓ speaker-1: Of course you need a design. You need to see how would you actually Where would you end up after this? But of course you need to review them several times. For us, it was about studying all these different areas that we needed ⁓ to make sure that we had a solution for. But it's difficult to explain ⁓ if you're not usually look at these patterns, but making female firefighting gear, you also need to investigate how many sizes. There are different standards that dictates how they should be. how many sizes you should have. You don't have that many measurements when it comes to structural firefighting gear. But I think that I counted that we have 188 sizes in total for female firefighters right now. But depending on what we're going to solve, we could add or we could remove. Usually we only add. But that is only for coat that we have it in 188 sizes. So if you think about all the small pieces that you have in a flat-fiber jacket, can see I have one here. There are so many patterns and all these patterns have to be graded to fit that one size, 188 times. So adjusting color width to make sure that they actually fit to them. together with your mask, making sure that it's not too tight but you still need to be protected. You need to make sure that the hood sits well underneath the collar over your shoulders. There's a lot of things to actually look into when you make these patterns. I'm not sure if that was your question but... speaker-0: Sure. No, I think there's a lot of moving parts I guess. speaker-1: So in one code you probably have like 50 different pieces and all these pieces has to be graded in all directions. ⁓ And they have to be equal because you also want all firefighters to look the same no matter which size they actually wear. that's also a bigger task. speaker-0: It sounds sounds like it. So beyond that, how did Viking go about testing these designs? ⁓ I know Kendall you talked a little bit about this being in terms of ⁓ testing and trying th this stuff out. So speaker-2: Yeah, they came out, like I said, probably about every six or eight months or so and brought the next demo set out and we went through some live burns, we did drags, we c you know, we crawled around the tower, climbed stairs, climbed up the aerial. I mean, just different stuff to get a feel for how we're moving in it and I mean there there were changes. I mean there were things that we did not like and there were things that were missing and things that we needed adjusted for ⁓ us over here in the US, but every single thing that we requested or suggested they followed through with and made the changes. So it was just kind of a trial and error for a couple of years and it seemed like it took forever to get the U L cert, but we finally managed we finally managed to get it and it was super exciting. speaker-1: When looking at all this training and tests, we actually filmed all the things that they did. Also, after each session, we filmed all the comments that they gave us. It was important for us to have ⁓ different female firefighters, different sizes to make sure that when they were... squeezing in between things that we could actually film them. Some had to take off their SBA in order to squeeze in between these small boxes. They were observing them ⁓ in snack houses. Did the jacket crawl up? Did the pants get trapped around things or in things? Did we have the right ease in the lower part of the pants? Did we have enough around the thighs? Did the pants pull down? Did they have enough width in between the legs so they can actually stretch as much as possible? How much ease do you have in your gussets below your armpits? Was it too much, too little? All these things were actually filmed and brought back to the team so everyone could actually evaluate on the comments to see where should we improve. I don't know if Kendall actually knows that I... took a lot of photos and asked a lot of questions because every single time that they had a comment, it was important for us to actually have it back to the entire team because there's not only one working on a garment. It's good to have all these different things up in a group to evaluate. Do we have different ideas for the pockets? Because the SEBAs that we saw that they were wearing didn't always fit. We cannot control. ⁓ the things that are used together with the garments, but we can try to make the garments work better with the things that they need. You have different masks ⁓ that also go into the colors. Are they easy to adjust? ⁓ Are they too wide so they will come down? ⁓ Heat, flames? speaker-2: That was actually one of the changes that we made after one of the burns too. Yeah. speaker-1: It was too white, so we had to adjust again. speaker-0: So it sounds like this field testing then yielded some positive results, ⁓ you know, in terms of the interplay between you and the designers. speaker-2: For sure. We had pockets changes made to the pockets. We had the bottom of the pants flared out because we struggled getting them over our boots. So there were a lot of things that you know we didn't really realize how much they impeded what we were doing. And then as soon as those changes were made, I mean it was it was smooth sailing. speaker-1: But it was not only the pants and coats, it was also suspenders. Did they nag? Did they pull down? Did we make it comfortable to wear the suspenders on our arm? We heard about female firefighters actually having injuries with the boggles on top of their breasts. So we also needed to make sure that when we made these suspenders, they will work together with the SCBA because of course you have some things. below your jacket but also have some things on top of it that you have to tighten. ⁓ So we need to make sure that it was comfortable for them. speaker-2: The fact that there are numerous ways to adjust them. So I kind of joke with the girls at conferences, you know, like we're not the same size throughout the month, women. So to have two adjustment opportunities in your pants, and then in the coat, you've got the kind of the waistband back there. I know for me in the wintertime I always had a hoodie on, so my coat would fit a little bit better, but with Valkyrie, you know, I can let that waist strap go if I have a hoodie on or I can tighten it up if it's summer and I know I'm gonna be in a t shirt. So having the option to actually be able to change a little bit 'cause we fluctuate so much more than men do every month. speaker-0: That's fascinating. speaker-1: Also to know about the materials because when you combine them into a garment, materials are different, so they behave in different ways, but you need to make sure that they would also be a benefit for the garment. speaker-0: So I know w maybe a little bit of speculation at this point, but h w what are we looking down the line in terms of you know, PPE and women's gear in general, especially as you know, we're seeing more ⁓ women coming into the fire service. Wha w what what can we speculate, I guess, about what we might be seeing in the in terms of the marketplace or just ⁓ expectations in general? speaker-2: Hopefully more females. I think females seeing, you know, it's it's really hard. So I with running a female organization like I do and running girls' firefighter camps, we allow our our team captains to wear Valkyrie because that's their second year of camp. So that's kind of like their little treat. But even just visually seeing 40 girls where you've got 10 or so in Valkyrie compared to speaker-1: We hope so. speaker-2: the other 30 that are in just regular unisex gear, it's completely different. Just how they function at camp. And these are young girls that have never done any kind of firefighting skills before. And just to see the way that the girls in Valkyrie can not just move, but they're all their conf like it's crazy to see confidence change in somebody. And of course we know it. I mean, we you know, you put an outfit on and you feel good about it, you're gonna be a lot more confident. So I think that changes a lot for women in the fire service too, because confidence is something that I feel like females kind of struggle with just because we have kind of always been the oddballs in this field. So to have confidence going in and knowing your gear is working for you and you can do your job in it, that's gonna help me perform better as a firefighter. speaker-0: It's like taking out an ⁓ an impediment, right, to your performance. so were there any was there anything else, Kendall, in your opinion that you you ran into that or how you felt in that transition from the the traditional gear into this ⁓ this more properly fitting gear? Like what what else changed? speaker-2: So I unfortunately retired before I even had an opportunity to full blown play in Valkyrie, but I know I you know, we've got lots of girls in our organization now that wear it. and I know a couple of ⁓ Angie and Ani, that were in the article. Angie has worn hers for about a year and a half and I mean she says it's night and day and she she will is not one to complain. So she would have worn whatever other gear she had and worked her butt off, but She will tell you hands down it there's nothing like it. And even just seeing girls at conferences, I mean, they're doing cartwheels. We even had a girl do the worm in Valkyrie Friday night at the Women in Fire conference in Austin, Texas. So she did a cartwheel and then she did the worm. And I can tell you right now, she probably could not have done that in any other gear. She may have hurt her foot, maybe busted her toe a little, but she rubbed. speaker-1: And from the other side of the garments, we love the impact of our work. ⁓ That is actually what is very motivating for us as a design engineer. We love to see ⁓ where the user needs are and what kind of materials we should use, how we can combine it with the standards and manufacturing, and how we can bring in innovation. ⁓ to see females actually doing things like that in our garments that just, well, it's, see the impact of our work. We see that people are actually happy about changes. So we like making products that developed to be used by professionals and keep them safe, making sure their wellbeing. ⁓ is a top priority and the quality of our guns it's just should be combined in quality so we can help female firefighters. speaker-0: You know, if again, for those who haven't read the mobility safety article, we'll post a link in here, but please go check that one out. And so as we start to wind things down, in terms and and maybe you know this is kind of beyond the scope, but if you're a fire department, what should what should you be keeping in mind when it comes to PP selection? I guess this is especially if you have ⁓ a number of women on your on your workforce, right? speaker-2: I mean ⁓ my thought is if you're a fire department that has females on the job, your your goal isn't about providing more safety for men or for women. You want your people in general to be the safest as possible because your whole goal is you want to send them home to their families at the end of the day. And if they really truly want that for their people. They should also be more than willing and more than open to allow their females to at least test gear that is made for them. We wouldn't ask their men to wear Valkyrie into a house fire. So as a fire department now, if you want to draw and recruit people, there has to be a way for you to show them that they belong. And I'm not saying that everybody belongs in the fire service, but I'm saying once you get people in there, You've gotta outfit ⁓ to be safe. I mean, I I medical retired after ten years and five surgeries. So safety is huge and we all know that. speaker-0: And Camila, what about it from the design side in terms of your they're out there specin' gear? What what is there a s something that they should be keeping in mind when it comes to Valkyrie perhaps in particular? speaker-1: I think mostly I'm just hoping for them to actually realize that it is possible to get something that would help them doing a tough job. And as Kendall said, if we can lower the amount of injuries, I think I realize that many firefighters actually retire in an early age. But if it has something to do with the garments, I hope that they will try on different gear to see what actually could. lower the statistics that we see. speaker-0: And so well thank you ⁓ for joining us today and thank you both ⁓ you know for this this insight. Do you have any ⁓ final thoughts before we we wrap things up here? speaker-2: From a female firefighter with the last five I've spent all last week with five hundred female firefighters. We're just super grateful that for Viking and Camilla for creating something that we can actually feel good about. speaker-1: You keep us motivated. All the things that you bring back to the table, we have something to work with. speaker-2: It has been a wonderful partnership for sure. Like speaker-1: twice. speaker-0: Well, you know, thank you again, ⁓ to everybody joining us. ⁓ please go read that article. If you want more information about Viking, ⁓ please go find ⁓ online. It's w dot VikingHenfire dot com. And ⁓ you know, hope to catch you all next time. speaker-2: Thank you. speaker-1: Thank you.