Latest / Love Your Gut / Ep. 122: Generational Health: 9 Out of 10 Babies Are Missing Key Gut Bacteria, with Dr. Stephanie Culler or Persephone

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Ep. 122: Generational Health: 9 Out of 10 Babies Are Missing Key Gut Bacteria, with Dr. Stephanie Culler or Persephone · Love Your Gut

• 0:03
  Dr. Heather Finley: Welcome to the Love Your Gut Podcast.
• 0:05
  Dr. Heather Finley: I'm your host, Dr.
• 0:06
  Dr. Heather Finley: Heather Finley, registered dietitian and gut health specialist.
• 0:10
  Dr. Heather Finley: I understand the frustration of dealing with GI issues because I've been there and I spent over two decades searching for answers for my own gut issues of constipation, bloating, and stomach pain.
• 0:21
  Dr. Heather Finley: I've dedicated my life to understanding and solving my own gut issues.
• 0:25
  Dr. Heather Finley: And now I'm here to guide you.
• 0:28
  Dr. Heather Finley: On this podcast, I'll help you identify the true root causes of your discomfort.
• 0:33
  Dr. Heather Finley: So you can finally ditch your symptoms for good.
• 0:36
  Dr. Heather Finley: My goal is to empower you with the knowledge and tools you need so that you can love your gut and it will love you right back.
• 0:43
  Dr. Heather Finley: So if you're ready to learn a lot, gain a deeper understanding of your gut and find lasting relief.
• 0:48
  Dr. Heather Finley: You are in the right place.
• 0:50
  Dr. Heather Finley: Welcome to the love your gut podcast.
• 0:55
  Welcome to the next episode of the Love Your Gut podcast.
• 0:58
  I am so excited to be here today with Stephanie.
• 1:02
  She is the founder of Persephone, and she's gonna chat with us all about her journey to becoming very interested in the microbiome, especially infants and toddlers.
• 1:14
  So, um, for those of you moms, which I know is many of you listening, you're gonna be very interested in this for your children.
• 1:21
  So Stephanie, welcome to the show.
• 1:24
  Thank you for having me.
• 1:25
  Okay.
• 1:26
  Well, let's just jump right in.
• 1:27
  You have a really interesting story, and before we pressed record, we realized that we have a personal connection to Caltech, which is where my dad worked for most of his career, and where you worked for a large portion of your career.
• 1:42
  So I wanna hear how you made this shift.
• 1:45
  Your career history's really interesting.
• 1:48
  You went from studying cancer to studying the microbiome in infants and toddlers, and I would love to just hear more about that journey, what got you interested, and why you're here now.
• 2:03
  Well, thank you for that.
• 2:04
  Yeah, so the reason why I became a scientist and did my PhD at Caltech was really because I lost both my grandmothers to cancer when I was a young teenager.
• 2:14
  And it inspired not only a personal passion in cancer research, but also how to prevent disease.
• 2:21
  And that was kind of a promise that I made to them, that I would do something about cancer.
• 2:25
  I didn't really know as a young teenager, but that's what brought me to do my PhD at Caltech, focused in new gene therapies for cancer.
• 2:34
  And during that work, I got really excited about becoming an entrepreneur.
• 2:37
  I really wanted to translate this into therapies, but I quickly realized I really didn't know anything about starting a company and, uh, specifically a biotech company.
• 2:46
  And so, um, after that, I made the decision, well, I really wanna become an entrepreneur, but I need ex- experience.
• 2:53
  And so I came down to San Diego, where we're based, and I worked in industrial biotech, working with microbes, like what we have in our gut, and commercializing new products around that.
• 3:04
  And it was really after that success, where I met my co-founder at another company, I wanted to go back to pursuing this passion in human health, but really wanted to combine that with this deep expertise in how microbes function, how to commercialize and manufacture.
• 3:19
  And the microbiome just seemed like a perfect place for this, um, bringing together all of my knowledge.
• 3:26
  And so founded Persephone Biosciences, actually nine years almost to the day, um, to build a technology platform that understands how the microbiome functions to initially develop cancer therapies.
• 3:42
  Um, but more broadly, we've explored over the last several years how we can impact the developing microbiome and help potentially prevent disease, um, in children.
• 3:53
  So, so interesting.
• 3:54
  And you also have a personal connection to this as well.
• 3:57
  So you are a mom.
• 3:59
  Did that start before you became a mom, or did the shift happen after you became a mom?
• 4:05
  The shift definitely happened after.
• 4:07
  For the first five years of the company, we actually were only focused in cancer research.
• 4:12
  Because it turns out, you know, most of our immune system's in our gut, about 70 to 80% of those immune cells.
• 4:19
  And for cancer patients, if they have a really imbalanced, unhealthy microbiome, they actually tend not to respond to treatment.
• 4:26
  And so we wanted to help them have a better microbiome so we could have more cures, better responses.
• 4:32
  And along that way, as I was really focused in cancer, um, I had my daughter.
• 4:38
  And when she was about six months old, she was off camera, this is during COVID, um, a well-known pediatrician, a pediatric scientist, came to me and said,"You know, we know how you're working in cancer research and trying to fix the microbiome of cancer patients.
• 4:54
  Why don't you fix the microbiome of babies?" And this was very alarming to me because, um, a few things.
• 5:02
  One, what's wrong with my daughter?
• 5:04
  Mm-hmm.
• 5:04
  She's sitting right next to me.
• 5:05
  She looks perfect, but I, I don't know what's going on.
• 5:08
  And second, I was really upset because I am an expert in the microbiome space.
• 5:13
  Yes, I had been focused on adults and cancer, but I didn't really know what the problem was, and it's an issue for modern babies.
• 5:21
  This is not something that impacted our grandparents, great-grandparents, or babies of the Amish, or the hunter and gatherer babies in Africa.
• 5:29
  It's modern babies.
• 5:30
  It's aspects of modernization like antibiotics- Mm-hmm C-section birth, even infant formula, poor diet, are leading to babies not getting the right microbes early on that train the immune system.
• 5:43
  That's actually the role of the baby biome, is that the immune system develops properly.
• 5:49
  And when they don't have these microbes or very low amounts, the wrong bacteria take hold, and the immune system develops errors.
• 5:56
  And these are permanent, which puts the child at high risk for developing chronic conditions, even including food allergies, eczema, asthma, and many others.
• 6:05
  And so that conversation and learning that inspired me to quickly pivot and really focus on solving this really, I would say, global crisis.
• 6:16
  It really is.
• 6:17
  And I was reading on your site, and I would love for you to explain MyBabyBiome.
• 6:24
  So w- that, I think that will kind of tie in exactly what you just said.
• 6:29
  Yeah.
• 6:29
  Like, what you started to find.
• 6:30
  So when you went through MyBabyBiome, what did you set out to measure, and what did you find in that process?
• 6:40
  Yeah, and so as I wanted to solve this problem, I quickly realized while there have been almost 10,000 scientific publications on the infant microbiome in really great studies around the world, none of them had the depth of information that we could develop a product to fix this issue.
• 6:59
  In specifically the United States, we had a v- very much a lack of data.
• 7:02
  There hadn't been a big study to truly understand this.
• 7:05
  And so we wanted to understand this on a large scale, but second, develop a product that could repair the microbiome.
• 7:12
  And so we launched MyBabyBiome almost four years ago.
• 7:15
  The children are now almost four.
• 7:17
  Mm.
• 7:17
  It's a seven-year study.
• 7:19
  Um, it's what we call an observational study, so we collect a lot of baby poops and dirty diapers.
• 7:25
  Thousands of samples.
• 7:27
  And what we found was really shocking, that nine out of 10, nine out of 10, 90% of US babies are missing one or more of the right bacteria that train the immune system.
• 7:40
  These are known as Bifidobacterium.
• 7:43
  But what was really further concerning was that by age two, when they became toddlers, if they didn't have these bacteria, or they were in low amounts, they were about three to four times more likely at getting food allergies Eczema, asthma, what we call atopic disease conditions.
• 8:04
  Again, several-fold at risk.
• 8:06
  Um, and so that is what led us to starting to think about how we can fix the microbiome of these babies.
• 8:13
  It's so alarming that y- when you say nine out of 10, it's like everybody knows 10 babies, and if you were to line them all up, to see nine of them are missing these keystone bacteria that are- Yeah help train the immune system and are so critical for their health long term.
• 8:32
  When you say a baby is missing these microbes, explain that a little bit more to someone who maybe doesn't quite understand that.
• 8:39
  Like, missing compared to what?
• 8:41
  Or what did a healthy gut look like a few generations ago that it doesn't look like now, like you- Ex- were kind of alluding to?
• 8:49
  Exactly, and that's how we actually know what a healthy microbiome is for infants, is that they have high levels of these Bifidobacterium.
• 8:58
  The reason why we know that is we can look at non-industrial populations around the world, as I mentioned, the Amish, the, the hunters and gatherers of Africa, and we even have some data from 100 years ago in the States that the baby biome was full of these.
• 9:12
  So very, very high levels.
• 9:13
  So that's what we know.
• 9:14
  And a very minor portion of the babies in our study had levels, decent levels of these bacteria.
• 9:20
  So we know that that's still happening.
• 9:23
  But we're, when we mean that these microbes are missing, and to your point, you mentioned keystone, what's really important, these are keystone.
• 9:31
  They're fundamental to the ecosystem.
• 9:34
  They're the essentially LEGO building block- Mm-hmm for the gut.
• 9:39
  Everything builds off of these bacteria, and it's conserved.
• 9:43
  This is human development.
• 9:45
  And when you are basically missing them, missing them, that means that using modern cutting-edge DNA sequencing technologies, we can't even detect them That is really what was super surprising to us, that that whole category, family of bacteria, were missing from more than 25% of these babies, and C-section babies were twice at risk.
• 10:12
  Um, more importantly, what we found in general is that some babies did have levels, but they were pretty low, and we know that the baby biome should be very high levels, meaning more than 50% of the early infant gut should be these bacteria.
• 10:26
  It's so interesting, and you said C-section are two times more likely.
• 10:31
  Did you learn anything about the maternal health markers that predicted anything, or are you still k- in the process of learning that, or what, what's some of the needle movers?
• 10:41
  We're still in the process.
• 10:43
  We're still very much in the process.
• 10:45
  We are seeing that if the mom has an unhealthy microbiome, that that d- baby basically has a higher chance of inheriting that.
• 10:55
  Mm-hmm.
• 10:56
  Um, and C-section on top of it, um, the babies acquire initially a microbiome of the hospital environment and skin.
• 11:06
  So we're now knowing that there's multiple ways to actually, unfortunately, inherit an unhealthy microbiome, and that's basically what's been also kind of propagating its way to the modern generation.
• 11:20
  So interesting.
• 11:20
  So even the hospital that you birth at is going to influence the microbiome?
• 11:25
  Yeah.
• 11:26
  Yeah.
• 11:26
  So crazy.
• 11:28
  One thing that I always tell our mom clients, and especially our clients that are either trying to conceive or that are pregnant already, they're like,"I don't know if now is the time to work on my gut health.
• 11:40
  I'm, I'm planning to get pregnant," or,"I already am pregnant.
• 11:44
  I don't think now is a good time." And I'm like,"This is the best time." Yes.
• 11:48
  Because when you talk about...
• 11:49
  People always talk about generational wealth, and I'm like,"No, generational health." Health.
• 11:55
  Because you pass your microbiome down to your kids.
• 11:58
  If there's, if there's one gift that you can give them, while, sure, giving them a trust fund might be helpful, no, giving them a healthy microbiome is the, like, most important thing, I think, that you can pass down to them.
• 12:12
  Yes, and beyond your genetics.
• 12:14
  Yes.
• 12:14
  And it's also something that you can change.
• 12:16
  You can correct- Exactly unlike our own DNA.
• 12:19
  Yeah.
• 12:20
  Like, you can...
• 12:21
  This is something that you actually have control over, and what a change that you can make in not only your future children or your baby that's in utero, but also your future grandchildren and the- Yeah generations beyond.
• 12:36
  Which kinda leads me to my next question, is if a mother has lost some of these microbes and can't pass them on are we watching that deficit just compound over generations?
• 12:49
  Is that reversible?
• 12:50
  What are we seeing from that standpoint?
• 12:53
  'Cause I could see someone listening to this being like,"Well, we're doomed.
• 12:55
  Like, this is only gonna get worse." Yeah.
• 12:57
  Which is why companies like Persephone- Yeah exist, but- Yeah talk to me about that.
• 13:02
  Yeah.
• 13:02
  It, it is compounding, and that's, that's why it is so concerning, because we are seeing it get lost- Mm-hmm um, and babies not having the opportunity to acquire it.
• 13:12
  The rest of the family's also likely missing these microbes, and so they don't have that opportunity to get exposed.
• 13:19
  Um, and even in our studies we have been tracking how baby was born, their bo- birth mor- b- birth mode, excuse me, but also mom's birth mode and grandma's birth mode if they know, so that we can see potentially where it's coming from.
• 13:34
  Um, but yeah, it, it is compounding.
• 13:36
  But it is an easy fix.
• 13:38
  We can put back these microbes, and that's what we've done at our company, um, and, and show that in a clinical way that we can do that.
• 13:45
  They're...
• 13:46
  It's basically restoring Mother Nature.
• 13:48
  Mother Nature intended these microbes to be there because they're the only microbes that truly thrive and work in the presence of breast milk.
• 13:57
  Mm-hmm.
• 13:57
  The special prebiotics in breast milk, human milk oligosaccharides, they don't feed the child.
• 14:03
  They feed the microbes in the gut.
• 14:06
  And so it's just putting back that native ecosystem or the natural ecosystem, um, that can fix this.
• 14:14
  It's so interesting.
• 14:15
  So what factors, like, if you were to give people three, t- your top three to five, what are the biggest factors that you think are actually in the parents' control that they can work on, either, like, w- in the trying to conceive journey, and I've...
• 14:33
  Another question I have later is about the father, but we'll focus now on this.
• 14:38
  Yes.
• 14:39
  What are the factors in control that, like, someone can focus on right now that are gonna make the biggest difference?
• 14:46
  I would say diet is the biggest thing.
• 14:49
  You know, before, uh, trying to conceive, during pregnancy, that is huge, because that is the biggest lever, outside of antibiotics- Mm-hmm is the biggest lever that we have that can impact the gut microbiome, and namely fiber.
• 15:04
  Fiber, fiber, fiber.
• 15:05
  Yes.
• 15:05
  We do not have enough fiber in the United States, and that's a huge part of the lack of diversity in the microbiome.
• 15:12
  You know, as moms, you know, one thing that I thought about during pregnancy a lot was: How do I increase the diversity of my gut microbiome?
• 15:20
  Because I wanna give my child diversity, right?
• 15:23
  It, it, it, it, let them see as much as they can, and have that as an opportunity.
• 15:27
  So I'd say diet.
• 15:29
  And then for the infant, um, and diet for the family, but for the infant particular, and I'll talk about toddlers, infant, it is restoring back what's missing, because most babies, nine out of 10, are missing one or more of these right bacteria.
• 15:43
  We have to put this back.
• 15:44
  This is a movement.
• 15:45
  We, as parents and practitioners, have to, to fix this, essentially- Mm-hmm so that all generations can benefit.
• 15:53
  But from there, it is being very conscious of the diet and what the children are eating, as well as antibiotic stewardship.
• 16:01
  Antibiotics are absolutely important.
• 16:03
  They save lives, but they also have an unintended consequence.
• 16:08
  For infants and toddlers, um, it has a tremendous impact on the ability for their microbiome to, to, to grow.
• 16:17
  It basically wipes them out, and they start back, um, and their microbiome has to catch up somehow.
• 16:23
  Again, it's developing.
• 16:25
  And how food is tremendously important in that range, I didn't realize till I got into this space.
• 16:31
  But when babies are born, they don't have a lot of microbes.
• 16:34
  You don't want them to.
• 16:36
  You need about, like, maybe a dozen or so.
• 16:38
  And by the time that they are three to four years old, they have more than 100 types.
• 16:43
  It looks much more like an adult.
• 16:45
  So it is developing.
• 16:47
  They're only developing from a few kinds, so at this, you know, introduction of solid foods in their kind of nutrition journey, we wanna make sure that we're really fostering a healthy microbiome, and that's what our research has been showing.
• 17:04
  So there's a lot of noise online about the first 1,000 days of the microbiome, and that's something that I always have in mind.
• 17:13
  I have three kids, and I always had- Yeah in my mind, like the first 1,000 days were, really, really focused.
• 17:18
  Not that it doesn't matter obviously after that, but is there a even more specific window where this matters most?
• 17:27
  And what happens if someone's listening to this and they're like,"I have a five-year-old, and they were on antibiotics a lot in- Yeah those first 1,000 days.
• 17:35
  Yeah.
• 17:35
  Like, tell us about that.
• 17:37
  Yeah.
• 17:38
  I mean, the first 1,000 days is absolutely paramount as well for the gut microbiome because that's also the immune system.
• 17:45
  They're developing together, and brain.
• 17:47
  We know it has an impact potentially on neurodevelopment.
• 17:50
  Um, there are some key windows.
• 17:52
  You know, zero to six months or prior to introduction of solid foods, that's just where it's milk-based, right?
• 18:00
  And that's where installing, if possible, those critical Bifidobacterium are super, super important.
• 18:08
  That's the only set of microbes they really need in the gut, and the earlier better.
• 18:13
  If you could give it to them starting in the hospital, it's fantastic.
• 18:16
  Of course, you know, later on it becomes much more difficult.
• 18:20
  I would say that journey, kind of the developmental journey, the next few time points essentially when they start to introduce solid foods and then start having a much more, uh, normal diet, those are the other inflection points.
• 18:34
  The microbiome actually changes a lot.
• 18:37
  There's a lot of dynamics that happen.
• 18:39
  And so if they get sick or they get antibiotics during those kind of key developmental windows, we know that it can be detrimental in terms of resetting the microbiome development, and we've seen that in health outcomes.
• 18:54
  Because, for example, infants under the age of one who receive antibiotics are more likely to get food allergies, eczema, and, and asthma, these atopic disease conditions.
• 19:07
  And we even saw that in our own study.
• 19:09
  They were four times more likely to get these conditions by the age of two It's so, so crazy just how much those first 1,000 days, and really, like, even like you said, in the hospital, like, just a simple...
• 19:24
  It doesn't have to be super complicated, which is why you developed your product.
• 19:28
  Like, you're making it so easy for people to actually add these bacteria in, and that can create such a lifelong change.
• 19:37
  How does this change for, breastfeeding versus formula feeding?
• 19:40
  Would your advice change on, like, dosing or a- anything like that?
• 19:46
  And this obviously is not really a discussion about, like, breastfeeding versus formula feeding.
• 19:50
  Yeah.
• 19:51
  Obviously, there's a lot of nuance there, but just what are the differences between that?
• 19:56
  Yeah.
• 19:57
  Yeah.
• 19:57
  So the way we thought about it, every baby goes and every family goes through a different feeding journey.
• 20:03
  Um- Mm-hmm and a lot of parents, you know, start out with one or another or, you know, change it up over time.
• 20:10
  We've developed a product such that it works in all situations.
• 20:13
  It has the probiotics and prebiotics, but even if a child is breastfed and they have all the prebiotics, um, it doesn't hurt to add more prebiotics essentially.
• 20:24
  Yeah.
• 20:24
  But formula babies will need that the most because in most formulas, they don't have this diversity of prebiotics, nor potentially at the, the right amounts.
• 20:35
  It's actually a significant amount of the prebiotics that's needed to make sure that the bacteria can thrive in the gut So most parents have probably gone to Whole Foods or some grocery store and just bought a random infant probiotic or a powdered probiotic- Yeah off the shelf, and I talk about that a lot, but why does that almost do nothing?
• 21:00
  Or why is that not the best option?
• 21:03
  Yeah.
• 21:03
  And, um, then let's get into, like, how you are pairing HMOs and all the different things, but why, why do we not just go to Whole Foods and buy a random infant probiotic?
• 21:16
  That's a great question.
• 21:17
  So, you know, with the cutting edge research we have today, it's very clear that babies need Bifidobacterium, but not all species and strains of Bifidobacterium are created equal.
• 21:29
  These are ones that specifically thrive in the infant gut, that specifically need to consume breast milk prebiotics.
• 21:39
  They're a very different type of, I would say, microbe or animal compared to many things that are on the market today.
• 21:47
  You've- might have heard of Lactobacillus, for example.
• 21:50
  Very different.
• 21:51
  They diverged, uh, in terms of evolution 2 billion years ago.
• 21:56
  Mm.
• 21:56
  The baby needs Bifidobacterium.
• 21:59
  These Lactobacillus do not thrive in the presence of breast milk.
• 22:02
  They don't colonize and grow in the gut, and they more importantly do not produce the signals that the immune system has evolved over time to develop normally.
• 22:12
  That's why Bifidobacterium are special.
• 22:15
  You know, this connection to the human milk oligosaccharides and the signal for the immune system.
• 22:20
  That can't be replicated.
• 22:22
  And I would say the second thing is what our study found, and some other amazing global studies that have been conducted in the last year or so, is that what we find in nature today, what we find in the infant microbiome, what we find in you and I, are different types of bacteria than what's in the grocery store.
• 22:42
  Evolution happens.
• 22:43
  Our microbes actually in our gut evolve throughout our lifetime.
• 22:48
  Mm-hmm.
• 22:48
  So, um, we need to be cognizant of that.
• 22:50
  And in fact, research, you know, our studies as well as a, a very big global study came in out, coming out of the UK recently showed that what's at the grocery store might have been isolated in the 1950s, over 70 years ago.
• 23:06
  These microbes genetically are very different, and they function different.
• 23:11
  They don't even exist in nature anymore.
• 23:13
  And so as we think about what to give our children, even to ourselves, it's really important to find something that's made for them, but also that comes from them, that's tailored for them.
• 23:25
  So you alluded to this a little bit, but your product specifically is pairing strains with HMOs, and we're always stressing this to our clients as well, like a probiotic is only as good as what the fuel is.
• 23:40
  So walk us through that and why this is so important, because probiotics need fuel themselves.
• 23:48
  Exactly, and that's probably why...
• 23:50
  it's one of the reasons that a lot of probiotics will fail- Mm-hmm is that lack.
• 23:55
  And what's really special and very unique to the infant gut is that these Bifidobacterium strains, the match for them, their food match are human milk oligosaccharides from breast milk.
• 24:10
  In fact, they have a, um, a scientific name, synergistic symbiotic.
• 24:14
  Mm-hmm.
• 24:16
  That means they synergize.
• 24:17
  They naturally and scientifically, during our biology, they synergize.
• 24:22
  They work together.
• 24:23
  They're kind of the, they're the- they're mates together.
• 24:26
  That's...
• 24:26
  They're matched.
• 24:27
  That's unlike most pre- and probiotics, where it's kind of hit or miss.
• 24:33
  Does that prebiotic actually help feed that probiotic?
• 24:36
  So, so that's what's really, I would say, im- important here.
• 24:40
  And then also, you know, how we developed our product, uh, this is our product for infants, we have it also for toddlers we identified in the MyBabyBiome study that there were three species of Bifidobacterium essentially needed for proper immune system development.
• 24:57
  Um, and they were Bifidobacterium infantis, breve and longum.
• 25:03
  Infantis is the superhero of the infant gut.
• 25:06
  It is the only species we know on the planet that can consume all of the breast milk prebiotics, um, and human milk oligosaccharides.
• 25:14
  Bifidobacterium longum and breve, they can do okay on breast milk prebiotics, but they're really good at plant-based fibers, and so they help the child as their incorporation of solid foods and, and in that process of getting much more of an adult-like microbiome.
• 25:30
  These are strains we need.
• 25:32
  And so in our lab, 30 feet away, isolated many strains of those key species, and using, um, our technology platform that we actually developed for cancer research, we came up with a formulation that has the missing species, but the key strains that are from modern babies, including two strains of Bifidobacterium infantis, the strains that we found to be dominant in the US babies, two of them, um, along with a blend of human milk oligosaccharides, but just not a normal blend.
• 26:05
  One, we decided to mimic breast milk, but also it contains the three structural classes of, of HMOs.
• 26:14
  And then of course 400IU of vitamin D, which for infants is the AAP, uh, recommended daily value It's so amazing.
• 26:22
  So this may be kind of a weird question, but w- if you were prioritizing...
• 26:29
  I know a lot of times parents are worried about, Do I need to get my child on, a vitamin?
• 26:34
  Or, supplement?
• 26:35
  In your opinion, what's more important, vitamins or taking these strains?
• 26:42
  It's, it's taking these strains.
• 26:44
  It's, it's, it's...
• 26:45
  And, and if you don't do that, but, you know, through, through diet, it's really trying to get a healthy microbiome because, you know, studies have been showing if, you know, introduction of food, you know, we can digest things so much better if we have a diverse, healthy microbiome, and in fact, how our microbiome extracts nutrition is impacted.
• 27:05
  So I would say focus on that first.
• 27:08
  Um, and a lot of those haven't been really tested on, on how efficacious they are for, for younger children.
• 27:15
  Along those lines, one thing that I know many of, of my friends and people I know struggle with with their kids is picky eating.
• 27:24
  So how does the microbiome impact that?
• 27:29
  Or what insights do you have there, if any?
• 27:32
  Well, I have been surprised.
• 27:33
  You know, uh, my daughter's now five, but when she was a toddler, I mean, she loves food, but, uh, there's been times, and she's still pretty picky at times.
• 27:41
  There are opinions, yes.
• 27:43
  What we found in our clinical research, as well as from parents, is that incorporating our product, um, not only made children happier, um, in mood and better sleep, which we have actually statistically significant in our clinical studies, improvements in sleep, but their appetite went up.
• 28:04
  You know, they had less, likely less inflammation, less discomfort in the gut, and that actually made them, well, not one, just happier and sleeping better, but yeah, they had a better appetite.
• 28:17
  Um, and, and that to me makes sense now, but at first when I got that data and results, I was, I was a little bit surprised, but really excited to see that.
• 28:25
  It really is.
• 28:26
  Everything starts and, and ends in the gut, like they say.
• 28:30
  I mean- Yeah obviously, probably not every single thing, but I would say most things- are impacted by the gut.
• 28:36
  And to kind of speak to some of the individuals that are listening to this podcast, obviously it's not toddlers.
• 28:43
  It's, it's moms or it's adults, and they're probably listening to this thinking,"Well, I'm 38, I'm 40, and I have chronic gut issues," One narrative that we'll often hear is,"I've been constipated since I was born," or,"I've had GI issues." Is there still real room to change things, and what are, what do you see just from your expertise?
• 29:07
  Absolutely.
• 29:07
  In fact, um, a lot of us take our toddler product, um- That's amazing because it reduces in- con- constipation in, in children, but in also in adults, um, yeah, which has been really interesting.
• 29:19
  A lot of GI, um, physicians have been recommending our, our product.
• 29:23
  Absolutely.
• 29:23
  And actually, that's, we've spent most of our existence, um, almost a decade now, on the adult microbiome- Mm-hmm in understanding people who do have an imbalanced microbiome all the way, you know, from, um, people who have chronic GI conditions, um, to, you know, advanced stage cancer, in understanding how the microbiome changes and, and becomes unhealthy over time.
• 29:48
  There is a lot of room for help.
• 29:50
  Um, we do see, you know, in many cases- When we've looked at a lot of microbiome samples from adults, um, there's just such a significant imbalance that it, just a little bit of effort could actually go quite a long way, and the microbiome is receptive.
• 30:08
  Mm-hmm.
• 30:08
  Within a few days you can actually start to change it.
• 30:11
  Um, obviously it's more plastic when they're younger, but we still can do that as adults.
• 30:16
  Absolutely It is really interesting.
• 30:19
  So from the stool tests that we run on our clients, one of the number one strains that we see low, uh, or groups that we see low is bifidobacteria.
• 30:30
  Yeah, yeah.
• 30:30
  And I do think a lot of that is exactly what you're talking about right now.
• 30:35
  It's been going on since infancy, but I also think a lot of that is diet as well.
• 30:41
  Like, clients are not eating the foods that actually influence bifidobacteria.
• 30:47
  Yeah.
• 30:48
  And so it can kind of be a double-edged sword there.
• 30:50
  But like you said, there's, uh, there's room for change, and it can happen actually very quickly because- Yes our diet is such a huge lever that we can pull for that.
• 31:00
  Exactly.
• 31:02
  Okay.
• 31:02
  Last question that I have for you that is mostly just personal curiosity is what similarities did you see now...
• 31:11
  You've worked in cancer, and then you've worked in infant, the infant microbiome space.
• 31:17
  Are there any, like, similarities, or what did you see from a cancer standpoint and microbiome standpoint as just trends or things to be aware of?
• 31:28
  Obviously, I have a personal connection with colon cancer with my dad so I'd love to know that.
• 31:35
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 31:36
  And, um, when we first started exploring the infant microbiome, what made me do a big study, MyBabyBiom, is that I was desperate to figure out what was happening.
• 31:47
  I was a little bit pessimistic, to be honest, as a scientist.
• 31:50
  Babies are born perfect.
• 31:51
  Mm-hmm.
• 31:52
  They are.
• 31:52
  But, but we can't tell what's going on inside, and I didn't quite believe the experts, to be honest.
• 32:00
  So we did a small pilot study, um, here where we are in San Diego, and we went around town.
• 32:06
  Literally, my husband went around town collecting dirty diapers from as many babies as we could find.
• 32:12
  Um, and we quickly saw, we sequenced their microbiome, and that's where I saw most of the babies had an unhealthy microbiome.
• 32:20
  But what really alarmed me and made me very emotional, I still think about the moment I looked at this data, um, I actually started to cry because I saw a lot of things in common with advanced stage cancer patients in newborns or six-month-olds.
• 32:38
  Mm-hmm.
• 32:38
  I really couldn't believe it.
• 32:40
  I was shocked that some of these species we see enriched in cancer patients were also enriched in babies, and it's really because...
• 32:49
  And, and our MyBabyBiom study further identified that, but it's really because when the right bacteria, the bifidobacterium, the keystone, is missing, it's like a garden.
• 33:00
  Essentially, the weeds will grow.
• 33:02
  Mm-hmm.
• 33:02
  And those weeds are opportunistic.
• 33:05
  Um, they don't have the child in mind essentially, and, and will take over.
• 33:10
  And- What we have been seeing is that some of these microbes are linked to risk of colorectal cancer.
• 33:20
  We see that in the cancer patients, many of them, um, specifically with colorectal cancer, but also other cancers.
• 33:27
  We're seeing kind of a cancer microbiome.
• 33:29
  With babies, we have been surprised to see some, some associated with colorectal cancer, meaning they have toxins that have been associated, and some have ta- shown, um, a causal impact in, in adults.
• 33:44
  And so I think for us, and for me, I was really surprised that there's this link.
• 33:50
  We're- Mm it's very early days to understanding more of this, um, but those are the kinds of things that we've been learning.
• 33:57
  And for cancer patients, I think there's tremendous room for nutrition, im- you know, specific nutrition for cancer patients, but thinking about the microbiome i- in particular.
• 34:10
  Yeah.
• 34:10
  It, it really is.
• 34:11
  So I would love to learn more about just the, the connections there, but it really is so interesting.
• 34:19
  W- I thought of one more question that I'm, I'm really curious about, and that is, so you run this biotech company and you've done the, one of the largest, if not the largest study in, in this space.
• 34:30
  What do you think is the hardest part about getting people to take this seriously?
• 34:36
  Or what challenges have you faced and how, how do you overcome that?
• 34:40
  Yeah.
• 34:41
  Um, at first, you know, I, I think what's, what...
• 34:46
  Everything here is surprising.
• 34:47
  Mm-hmm.
• 34:48
  Because we think babies are born perfect.
• 34:50
  We think vaginally born, breastfed, that is the most natural situation.
• 34:55
  But we're now finding because of modernization, that is impacted.
• 35:00
  It do- it's doesn't work.
• 35:02
  It's not perfect anymore.
• 35:04
  Um, that is what people have pushed back on.
• 35:07
  And listen, I pushed back on that initially too.
• 35:09
  I had to go do the research to prove it to myself, and that's why we continue to do research to help share that, you know, the evidence, lots of evidence that this is actually happening.
• 35:20
  But I would say it's, it's really that, and I would say following that is this notion that breast milk may fix it.
• 35:27
  We have seen in our study, and many other studies, that if the right bacteria are there, breast milk unfortunately doesn't fully fix it because the, they're, they can feed the wrong bacteria.
• 35:39
  Essentially, the weeds are there, you're gonna water the weeds more.
• 35:42
  That's what's happening.
• 35:43
  So but obviously, it, it's magical when the right bacteria come together with breast milk.
• 35:50
  So interesting.
• 35:51
  Okay, so the question that I always ask people as they wrap up is, obviously this is called the Love Your Gut Podcast, what is your favorite way to love your gut?
• 36:03
  I would say fermented foods.
• 36:05
  Love it.
• 36:05
  I love kefir.
• 36:07
  In fact, uh, about two hours ago, I had my morning kefir.
• 36:11
  Um, but yeah, fermented foods.
• 36:13
  Kefir, tempeh, kimchi, uh, all of those kinds of things.
• 36:18
  I, yeah, fermented foods.
• 36:20
  Love it so much.
• 36:22
  Okay.
• 36:22
  Please tell everybody where they can find you, where they can learn more about your product.
• 36:27
  Thank you so much for joining.
• 36:28
  This was so interesting, and I know it's gonna help so many people that are confused about what's going on with their babies or how they can help their kids.
• 36:36
  So just appreciate you taking the time.
• 36:38
  Thank you so much.
• 36:39
  if you wanna learn more, you can visit us at persephone.bio.
• 36:43
  Also socials@persephone.bio.
• 36:46
  Amazing.
• 36:47
  Thanks so much.
• 36:48
  Thank you.