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Clinician Trust, Burnout and ROI: The Real Test for Ambient AI in Healthcare · Becker’s Healthcare Podcast

• 0:00
  - Hi, everyone. This is Brian Zimmerman with Becker's
• 0:02
  - Healthcare. Thank you so much for tuning into
• 0:04
  - the Becker's Healthcare podcast.
• 0:06
  - Today, we're gonna talk about clinician trust, burnout,
• 0:08
  - and ROI,
• 0:10
  - the real test for ambient AI in healthcare.
• 0:12
  - Joining me for this discussion is doctor Michael
• 0:14
  - Hahn, chief medical officer at Ambience Healthcare. Doctor
• 0:18
  - Hahn, thank you so much for being here
• 0:19
  - today. Thanks for having me, Brian. Pleasure to
• 0:21
  - be here.
• 0:23
  - Awesome to have you on. And just as
• 0:24
  - we get going here, maybe you can share
• 0:26
  - a little bit about yourself, your your your
• 0:28
  - professional journey, your work in healthcare, and and
• 0:30
  - what you're doing with with Ambiance today.
• 0:32
  - Sure. So my name is Baikhan. I am
• 0:35
  - a urologist
• 0:36
  - by background.
• 0:37
  - If you asked me,
• 0:39
  - twenty years ago if I would be in
• 0:40
  - medical informatics
• 0:42
  - and and and being part of a team
• 0:44
  - that's, building an AI,
• 0:47
  - ambient clinical documentation
• 0:48
  - tool, I I would have said, what's informatics?
• 0:50
  - And ambient clinical documentation, never heard of it.
• 0:53
  - Things have changed, certainly. Things have changed over
• 0:56
  - the last twenty years. I had the honor
• 0:58
  - of, of practicing with a very traditional
• 1:02
  - single specialty urology group, a multi specialty group,
• 1:06
  - that that focused on on value based care
• 1:08
  - delivery,
• 1:09
  - as well as a couple of very large,
• 1:11
  - integrated delivery networks,
• 1:13
  - here on the West Coast.
• 1:15
  - I I think that I am part of
• 1:16
  - the generation
• 1:17
  - of what I call accidental informaticists.
• 1:20
  - There's a a group of us that never
• 1:22
  - had the thought that they would be,
• 1:25
  - working, with the, the electronic health record and
• 1:28
  - its governance and implementation and maintenance.
• 1:31
  - But,
• 1:32
  - you know, we, I was involved in a
• 1:34
  - early implementation electronic health record.
• 1:37
  - It didn't go so well,
• 1:39
  - and my chief medical officer at the time
• 1:41
  - said, well, you seem like you're really good
• 1:43
  - at using the record. You're already part of
• 1:45
  - the leadership team.
• 1:47
  - I don't have to pay you anymore to
• 1:48
  - do this. Other duties are assigned to go
• 1:50
  - fix the electronic health record. And so, you
• 1:53
  - know, moving on to,
• 1:55
  - working for larger integrated delivery networks, certainly there
• 1:58
  - was more complexity
• 2:00
  - in trying to drive provider adoption and satisfaction
• 2:03
  - with the electronic health record.
• 2:05
  - And so I went on to get a
• 2:07
  - a a board certification in in clinical informatics,
• 2:11
  - which taught me some of the science behind,
• 2:14
  - change management and implementation,
• 2:16
  - and,
• 2:17
  - and a little bit of computer science. And
• 2:20
  - then I I found myself,
• 2:22
  - wondering if
• 2:24
  - if I should continue
• 2:25
  - along
• 2:26
  - the pathway,
• 2:27
  - on the provider side,
• 2:30
  - or,
• 2:31
  - whether I wanted
• 2:32
  - to give the venture backed startup space
• 2:35
  - a try. And I I guess timing is
• 2:38
  - everything. And,
• 2:39
  - and Nikhil Budama,
• 2:40
  - our CEO,
• 2:42
  - reached out to me earlier this year. And,
• 2:45
  - and I guess the rest is history.
• 2:47
  - And so now I have, the privilege of
• 2:50
  - of of working alongside who I believe is
• 2:52
  - the the best team in health care AI
• 2:54
  - in building,
• 2:55
  - an intelligence platform
• 2:57
  - to,
• 2:58
  - apply artificial intelligence
• 3:00
  - to improve the delivery of health,
• 3:03
  - in this country. And so as the chief
• 3:05
  - medical officer at
• 3:07
  - at at a health care technology company, I
• 3:09
  - I think that the the the role is
• 3:11
  - really,
• 3:12
  - threefold. I I think that there there is
• 3:15
  - a sales portion to the role.
• 3:17
  - There is certainly,
• 3:19
  - a support,
• 3:20
  - portion to the role. And finally, there is
• 3:22
  - product. So and and I'm happy to say
• 3:24
  - that I've been involved in all three,
• 3:26
  - in my first couple of months here and
• 3:28
  - seek. And, it's been an amazing journey.
• 3:31
  - Wonderful to have you on and to hear
• 3:33
  - about that journey. And, Nikhil, the CEO is
• 3:36
  - certainly a friend of the podcast, has been
• 3:38
  - on before.
• 3:39
  - I wanna go back though to something you
• 3:41
  - spoke on
• 3:43
  - early, which is that that those early days
• 3:44
  - with the EHR, you mentioned it was,
• 3:47
  - I'm paraphrasing here, but but pretty challenging.
• 3:50
  - And and I think that's that it's fair
• 3:52
  - to say that, anecdotally, that's been the experience
• 3:54
  - of a lot of clinicians with EHR.
• 3:57
  - But now we're starting to see things change
• 3:59
  - quite a bit. So there's a study Yale
• 4:02
  - led in 2025
• 4:04
  - from across six health systems that found that
• 4:06
  - Ambien AI reduced clinician burnout rates
• 4:09
  - roughly fifty two percent to thirty nine percent
• 4:11
  - in just thirty days. And, of course, the
• 4:13
  - EHR is some of that documentation burden is
• 4:16
  - closely tied to to to to burnout.
• 4:19
  - As a clinician, putting your clinician hat on,
• 4:22
  - how do you separate, I guess, what what
• 4:24
  - genuine progress like this,
• 4:26
  - with AI looks like from sort of AI
• 4:29
  - hype? You know, what does meaningful lasting relief
• 4:32
  - for clinicians look like? Because this this seems
• 4:35
  - real and tangible, but there's also a lot
• 4:37
  - out there in terms of a lot of
• 4:38
  - noise, a lot of promise. So putting your
• 4:40
  - clinician hat on, how do you separate the
• 4:42
  - two?
• 4:43
  - I I think that first and foremost
• 4:45
  - is leading with the data. I mean, I
• 4:47
  - I I you know, physicians,
• 4:49
  - providers,
• 4:50
  - clinicians in general,
• 4:52
  - they're they're taught to start with subjective data
• 4:54
  - and then move on to the objective data.
• 4:56
  - And and I think that that that is
• 4:58
  - super important to to to lead with data.
• 5:01
  - When when I was at MultiCare, which is
• 5:03
  - the the last, integrated delivery network that I
• 5:05
  - was a part of,
• 5:07
  - we looked at at at return on investment
• 5:10
  - from any clinical documentation in in three buckets.
• 5:13
  - The the first was time savings.
• 5:16
  - Are we actually seeing,
• 5:18
  - a savings in time for our physicians and
• 5:21
  - APPs?
• 5:22
  - So,
• 5:23
  - time in documentation,
• 5:25
  - time in chart,
• 5:27
  - time spent after scheduled hours in the electronic
• 5:29
  - health record.
• 5:30
  - We we also looked at revenue generation
• 5:33
  - and,
• 5:34
  - did we see an in an increase,
• 5:37
  - in productivity?
• 5:38
  - Did we see an increase in in risk
• 5:41
  - scoring? And then finally, you know, the the
• 5:43
  - the the the same the same data that
• 5:45
  - you mentioned from the Yale study,
• 5:47
  - we looked at burnout.
• 5:49
  - And and, you know, the the folks at
• 5:51
  - Ambiance hate it when I say this, but
• 5:52
  - agnostic of solution. Right? We looked at three,
• 5:56
  - competing solutions, Ambiance included.
• 5:58
  - Agnostic of solution,
• 6:00
  - in about six months, we went from
• 6:03
  - sixty percent of physicians and APPs
• 6:07
  - reporting any symptom of burnout. So that's six
• 6:09
  - zero percent
• 6:10
  - to sixteen, one six percent,
• 6:13
  - reporting any symptom of burnout. We went from
• 6:16
  - eleven percent of our physicians and APPs,
• 6:20
  - saying that they enjoyed their work
• 6:22
  - to, the end of the bake off, where
• 6:25
  - where 35%
• 6:26
  - of them, said that they were actually enjoying
• 6:28
  - their work. You know, in the fifteen years
• 6:30
  - that I've been doing informatics,
• 6:32
  - I've never seen anything move the needle like
• 6:35
  - that. And so, you know, kudos to to
• 6:38
  - institutions that are implementing this technology,
• 6:42
  - and and certainly to to to those who
• 6:44
  - are building it. Yeah. I mean, those those
• 6:46
  - numbers are so striking and this is not
• 6:49
  - it's not like this hasn't been a problem
• 6:50
  - people have been trying to solve for some
• 6:52
  - time. Right? Doctor Hahn, and and now suddenly,
• 6:55
  - it feels like there's a there's a special
• 6:57
  - tool that can really, really help get you
• 6:59
  - there. Is that is that a fair read?
• 7:01
  - Yeah. And I think it's only the start.
• 7:02
  - Right? I think that documentation,
• 7:05
  - is only the start.
• 7:07
  - I think that there are areas both upstream
• 7:10
  - and downstream of,
• 7:12
  - within,
• 7:13
  - position and APP workflow that we can continue
• 7:16
  - to tackle to to ease and automate,
• 7:19
  - as much as possible.
• 7:21
  - Yeah. Yeah. And and there are these wins
• 7:24
  - folks can point to and sometimes,
• 7:26
  - you know, certain organizations will experience similar wins
• 7:30
  - in in pilot modes. Right? In in in
• 7:33
  - they'll have an effective pilot, but they'll run
• 7:34
  - into barriers then when they try to scale
• 7:36
  - deployment.
• 7:37
  - So why does that happen? Doctor Han, can
• 7:39
  - you can you expand on that? Where where
• 7:41
  - does that disconnect happen, and
• 7:43
  - how can health system leaders sort of avoid
• 7:45
  - that, avoid sort of perhaps a a promising
• 7:48
  - pilot that doesn't turn into sort of enterprise
• 7:50
  - wide results?
• 7:52
  - I I think that that that the issue
• 7:54
  - here is fairly classic, you know, sort of
• 7:57
  - change management and and and looking at the
• 8:00
  - the looking at the adoption curve. Right? Because
• 8:03
  - for the most part, you know, I would
• 8:05
  - say that pilots are populated with with with
• 8:08
  - clinicians
• 8:10
  - who are pioneers and early adopters.
• 8:12
  - Right?
• 8:13
  - And and and so you are more than
• 8:16
  - likely,
• 8:17
  - going to get
• 8:19
  - fairly decent adoption
• 8:20
  - and fairly decent utilization
• 8:23
  - amongst those providers.
• 8:25
  - But as you move from your your pioneers
• 8:29
  - and early adopters up, you know, the early
• 8:31
  - majority part of the curve and and certainly
• 8:33
  - the late majority part of the curve, down
• 8:35
  - the late majority part of the curve. Now
• 8:37
  - you're talking about providers that are a little
• 8:38
  - bit more skeptical.
• 8:40
  - And so, you
• 8:42
  - you you need to do a couple of
• 8:44
  - things well here. Right? I I I think
• 8:47
  - that the first is is
• 8:49
  - is really looking at the people in the
• 8:50
  - process. Right? And
• 8:52
  - and and being able to convince people that
• 8:55
  - they wanna be able they wanna use this
• 8:56
  - tool
• 8:58
  - and and make sure that the tool fits
• 9:00
  - into their workflow.
• 9:02
  - You know, I know that, some of my
• 9:03
  - engineering friends are gonna cringe when I say
• 9:05
  - this, but but technology is really the easy
• 9:07
  - part.
• 9:08
  - Convincing the people and making sure it integrates
• 9:11
  - into the workflow, the process is the hard
• 9:13
  - part, and it's a step that, you know,
• 9:14
  - a lot of systems and vendors quickly forget,
• 9:18
  - after having a a a, you know, a
• 9:19
  - moderately successful pilot.
• 9:22
  - You know, you know, sort of double clicking
• 9:25
  - on on that move from pilot to
• 9:28
  - to production.
• 9:30
  - Here at Ambiance, we we we look at
• 9:32
  - a couple of different data points, because we
• 9:34
  - truly believe that the most expensive AI you're
• 9:36
  - ever gonna buy is the AI that's not
• 9:39
  - being used.
• 9:41
  - And so most of the vendors in this
• 9:43
  - space,
• 9:44
  - measure what they what they call utilization
• 9:46
  - based on, did the clinician
• 9:49
  - use the product
• 9:50
  - once or twice in a month?
• 9:54
  - But we think that that's the wrong question.
• 9:55
  - That's that's adoption. How many providers do you
• 9:58
  - have that are using this, on a monthly
• 10:01
  - basis?
• 10:02
  - We believe at Ambiance that encounter youth level
• 10:06
  - utilization
• 10:07
  - is a key metric.
• 10:08
  - What percentage of visits is the clinician actually
• 10:11
  - using the technology
• 10:13
  - over their total number of visits. And and
• 10:15
  - that's a much higher standard.
• 10:18
  - What we've seen is is that the industry
• 10:20
  - average for Ambient AI
• 10:22
  - is around 40%.
• 10:25
  - When we scaled Ambiance at MultiCare,
• 10:28
  - we we moved from 200 providers in the
• 10:31
  - pilot
• 10:31
  - to to over 1,200 providers in a period
• 10:35
  - of three months,
• 10:36
  - and we sustained 80%,
• 10:39
  - encounter level utilization for those providers.
• 10:43
  - And so, you know, the the
• 10:45
  - the the internal numbers
• 10:47
  - if you if you say that we're using
• 10:49
  - this if 40% of your providers have have
• 10:51
  - adopted the tool and they're using it for
• 10:53
  - 40% of their encounters,
• 10:55
  - then across the system, you're only using it
• 10:58
  - for 16%,
• 11:00
  - of your total encounters.
• 11:02
  - At MultiCare, I would say that we're already
• 11:04
  - at around 70 to 75%
• 11:07
  - of our eligible providers,
• 11:08
  - and we're running pretty close to 80%,
• 11:11
  - you know, which which tells me that we're
• 11:13
  - we're we're well above 50 to 60%,
• 11:17
  - of the total number of encounters. And and
• 11:19
  - I think that that's,
• 11:20
  - it it it's just more data to prove
• 11:23
  - that that the ambiance technology is being both
• 11:26
  - adopted
• 11:28
  - and utilized.
• 11:30
  - Yeah. Again, more more striking numbers there. I
• 11:33
  - wanna get to something. I do wanna get
• 11:35
  - to sort of,
• 11:36
  - perhaps, attention between clinical documentation and and and
• 11:40
  - revenue integrity. But first, I wanna get at
• 11:43
  - something at another barrier here that might be
• 11:46
  - the cause of why that number isn't,
• 11:48
  - and that that multi care success isn't seen
• 11:51
  - across other organizations
• 11:53
  - as well. Specialties are tough. Right?
• 11:56
  - When you're moving into different different specialties, that
• 11:59
  - could be a challenge. But ambiance, if I
• 12:00
  - if I'm reading this correctly, you and you
• 12:02
  - can correct me if I'm wrong,
• 12:03
  - 200 plus specialties into including complex areas like
• 12:07
  - oncology and psychiatry.
• 12:09
  - I wanna ask how important is that specialty
• 12:11
  - specific depth when health systems are really trying
• 12:13
  - to evaluate
• 12:14
  - ROI,
• 12:16
  - clinician adoption, and really driving that long term
• 12:18
  - enterprise value by having that clinician adoption at
• 12:21
  - at very high rates, well above that that
• 12:23
  - average 40%.
• 12:25
  - It's it's a nonnegotiable.
• 12:27
  - I mean, it it we we we started,
• 12:30
  - here at Ambiance,
• 12:31
  - creating specialty specific modules.
• 12:33
  - And the fact that we we treated each
• 12:36
  - specialty differently
• 12:37
  - is is one what won the hearts and
• 12:39
  - minds,
• 12:40
  - of of all of our physicians' APPs.
• 12:43
  - You know, I knew that I had a
• 12:44
  - winner when an oncologist, a cardiologist, and primary
• 12:48
  - care physician all came to me and asked
• 12:50
  - for Ambiance
• 12:52
  - by name. They said, this is what we
• 12:54
  - want.
• 12:55
  - And and it wasn't just that MultiCare,
• 12:57
  - asset specialist at the Cleveland Clinic, asset specialist
• 13:00
  - at the Mayo Clinic,
• 13:02
  - asset specialist at University of Pennsylvania.
• 13:05
  - This is why Ambiance is winning, and we're
• 13:08
  - gonna continue to focus on our ability to
• 13:10
  - provide specialty specific,
• 13:13
  - documentation.
• 13:15
  - Thank you so much, doctor Hahn. Can you
• 13:17
  - share a little bit to why it's so
• 13:19
  - difficult,
• 13:20
  - I guess, for for for solutions to work
• 13:21
  - in the specialty space and and what's any
• 13:24
  - more details you have about what makes Ambien
• 13:26
  - stand out in this regard?
• 13:27
  - Yeah. I mean, I I I I think
• 13:29
  - that the the biggest surprise that I had
• 13:32
  - when when I got here
• 13:34
  - was the number of physicians and nurses and
• 13:37
  - clinicians,
• 13:38
  - that I met who worked at Ambiance. And
• 13:40
  - and and and and the number of
• 13:43
  - of physicians and nurses,
• 13:45
  - we actually have
• 13:47
  - hands on keyboard coding the product. You know,
• 13:50
  - nowadays, it may be whispered a clod,
• 13:52
  - but I mean, literally, hands on keyboard creating
• 13:54
  - the product.
• 13:56
  - In fact, one in five of our employees,
• 13:59
  - have a clinical background.
• 14:01
  - And and so this product is is is
• 14:05
  - coded and built by clinicians
• 14:07
  - for clinicians.
• 14:09
  - And so I think that that that's really
• 14:11
  - the difference between
• 14:13
  - digitalhealth1.o,
• 14:16
  - versus where we're at now. And that this
• 14:18
  - is this is a tool that that is
• 14:20
  - being built by physicians,
• 14:22
  - for physicians,
• 14:23
  - by nurses,
• 14:24
  - for nurses who have a deep understanding of
• 14:27
  - the workflow.
• 14:28
  - Excellent.
• 14:29
  - Let's move now to talk about sort of
• 14:31
  - the revenue aspects here. You know, with Ambient
• 14:34
  - AI, it can certainly speed up clinical documentation,
• 14:36
  - make it easier, but cleaner notes don't necessarily
• 14:39
  - always translate into accurate,
• 14:41
  - coding and billing. Right? How should leaders think
• 14:44
  - about aligning documentation, quality, and revenue integrity
• 14:48
  - as they try to scale these tools? What
• 14:50
  - should they be thinking about?
• 14:51
  - I don't think that these are necessarily competing
• 14:54
  - priorities.
• 14:55
  - I I think that
• 14:56
  - documentation
• 14:57
  - quality
• 14:58
  - and revenue integrity
• 15:01
  - should go hand in hand. There there's an
• 15:03
  - old saying out there. Right? Don't follow money,
• 15:04
  - let money follow you. And and I'm a
• 15:07
  - big believer if you focus on quality,
• 15:10
  - the the value will follow. And and and
• 15:12
  - one of my one of my friends who's
• 15:13
  - the revenue cycle leader,
• 15:15
  - at at MultiCare,
• 15:17
  - she fiercely corrected me when I used the
• 15:19
  - term upcoding.
• 15:20
  - We don't upcode. It's it's accurate coding based
• 15:23
  - on appropriate documentation.
• 15:25
  - And the better your documentation is, the more
• 15:27
  - likely it is that you won't get a
• 15:28
  - downstream
• 15:29
  - denial. And so I think that that we
• 15:32
  - are
• 15:33
  - quite aligned with our revenue cycle friends
• 15:36
  - to make sure that we begin the work
• 15:38
  - upstream
• 15:39
  - to improve documentation quality and it will reduce
• 15:42
  - work on the, downstream,
• 15:45
  - in terms of
• 15:46
  - of denials and what have you.
• 15:49
  - Yeah. It's not just moving fast, it's moving
• 15:51
  - more accurately. Correctly?
• 15:53
  - That's correct. Yeah.
• 15:55
  - So I guess to close here, doctor Hahn,
• 15:57
  - when you're talking to clinicians or health system
• 16:00
  - leaders that express
• 16:02
  - skepticism about ambient AI,
• 16:04
  - what do you tell them?
• 16:06
  - How do you try to help them move
• 16:07
  - beyond skepticism? I mean, you can't possibly change
• 16:10
  - everyone's mind all the time, but
• 16:12
  - what are you telling them?
• 16:14
  - The other final question,
• 16:16
  - looking ahead, what will it take to build
• 16:18
  - sustainable programs here
• 16:21
  - industry wide? So two parter there for you.
• 16:23
  - What do you tell people who are skeptical?
• 16:25
  - And also when you think about big picture,
• 16:27
  - what's what's it gonna take to drive
• 16:29
  - truly, you know,
• 16:31
  - transformational
• 16:32
  - sustainable programs?
• 16:34
  - I think that the first thing that you
• 16:36
  - need to do when you approach anybody who
• 16:39
  - is skeptical
• 16:40
  - is is to really ask them, well, what
• 16:43
  - problem is it that they're trying to solve?
• 16:45
  - And help them to see that we we
• 16:48
  - may be aligned on the problem that you're
• 16:50
  - trying to solve, whether it is burnout, whether
• 16:53
  - it is productivity, whether it is position time
• 16:56
  - savings.
• 16:57
  - We may be aligned. So so ask them
• 16:59
  - what problem it is that you're trying to
• 17:01
  - solve.
• 17:02
  - I think that the second thing that that
• 17:04
  - you really need to to to bring forward
• 17:06
  - is the data.
• 17:07
  - Right? And and I think that I mentioned
• 17:08
  - the 60 to 16,
• 17:10
  - we reviewed the the Yale data in terms
• 17:12
  - of burnout.
• 17:13
  - And and and at one point, I I
• 17:15
  - think I've said that that if you're not
• 17:16
  - at least thinking about implementing an ambient clinical
• 17:18
  - documentation solution, you don't care about your providers.
• 17:21
  - That that might be a little spicy,
• 17:24
  - but, you know, there there is data from
• 17:25
  - multiple institutions now saying that even if you
• 17:28
  - don't see time savings, you still see subjective
• 17:31
  - improvements in burnout.
• 17:33
  - And and I think that we all can
• 17:34
  - agree that that that burnout is a significant
• 17:36
  - problem that is left to be solved in
• 17:38
  - healthcare.
• 17:39
  - In terms of sustainability,
• 17:41
  - I'm gonna go back to that sort of
• 17:43
  - people process technology framework.
• 17:46
  - You've gotta gain trust of the people. And
• 17:49
  - I think that the first way you do
• 17:50
  - this is by delivering the best possible product
• 17:53
  - to them that you can.
• 17:54
  - And you can't ignore
• 17:56
  - how it fits into process.
• 17:58
  - So again, technology
• 18:01
  - is the easy part, but focus on the
• 18:03
  - people, gain their trust,
• 18:05
  - don't ignore how it fits into the process,
• 18:08
  - and then deploy this technology in a thought
• 18:09
  - manner.
• 18:11
  - Yeah.
• 18:12
  - Some strong points, doctor Hahn, especially when you
• 18:14
  - consider,
• 18:15
  - if folks get burned by a technology,
• 18:18
  - even if, like, the solution improves and you
• 18:20
  - get better
• 18:21
  - a couple months down the road, they're less
• 18:22
  - likely to take a look at that, right,
• 18:24
  - because they've had a bad experience.
• 18:26
  - Yep. Absolutely. And I think that that's that
• 18:28
  - that's the hill that we're climbing right now
• 18:30
  - from the initial implementation or rollout of electronic
• 18:32
  - health records. Right. Is is that that that
• 18:35
  - that physicians and APPs and nurses are are
• 18:38
  - innately suspicious
• 18:39
  - of technology.
• 18:42
  - Right. Because when that that came out,
• 18:44
  - with the the promise sort of attached to
• 18:46
  - it that it was gonna change the the
• 18:48
  - clinician experience, I don't I I think it
• 18:50
  - did, but perhaps not in the way folks
• 18:52
  - wanted to see. Correct?
• 18:54
  - Yep. And I'm super optimistic
• 18:56
  - that this generation
• 18:58
  - of technology
• 18:59
  - that's been built again, you know, by clinicians,
• 19:02
  - for clinicians
• 19:03
  - is going to help and turn that narrative
• 19:05
  - around.
• 19:06
  - Well, doctor Hahn, we'll leave it there. Thank
• 19:08
  - you so much for coming on the podcast.
• 19:10
  - Thank you. It's been great. We also wanna
• 19:12
  - thank our podcast sponsor, Ambiance Healthcare.
• 19:14
  - You can tune into more podcasts from Becker's
• 19:17
  - Healthcare by visiting our podcast page at beckershospitalreview.com.