Latest / But We Had A Plan | A Disaster Nomad Podcast / Ep 04: Making bad days smaller

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Ep 04: Making bad days smaller · But We Had A Plan | A Disaster Nomad Podcast

• Jess: I know we tried to record this the other day and obviously signal and all sorts kind of cut us off, so I want to go back to the most important question that I asked you at the start of last time, which was why The Big Drew: Mm. Jess: Lebowski? Drew: Yeah, for sure. You know, I feel like everybody has like a couple of movies where they're just like it just brings them in a happy place anytime it's on or they watch it. And for me that's The Big Lebowski. I saw it the first time like I guess over twenty years ago now, I was out looking at schools in California. Jess: Wow. Okay. Drew: and saw it while I was out there one night and I've watched it like a couple of times a year, every year since and it just like Brings me into such a happy place. Jess: I'd love your take on whether or not The Dude actually has anything to teach us about operating in chaos given the sector that you are in. Drew: He definitely remains cool, right? He's def he's definitely operating off some shady or or patchy intel at best too. Jess: Yeah. Drew: Yeah. Jess: Hundred percent. Yeah, I think it was just so funny when you when you sent that mail back with it 'cause I was like, this is actually perfect. This is exactly what it's about. how do we just Drew: Thank you. Jess: find order in this chaos? Yeah. Drew: Ha ha ha. Jess: but Drew how how did you end Drew: Yeah. Jess: up in the space and the sector that you are working in now? 'Cause I know like there's the logistics piece, but then you're obviously dabbling in Drew: Mm-hmm. Jess: a lot of other conversations around the disaster world in general. And I'd love to just know kind of how you ended up where you are. Yeah. Drew: I feel like all our careers or our our like journeys are all such like windy weird things. And I think that's kind of beautiful in a cool way though too. I started out I went back to school shortly after undergrad and after I did a public health degree in it. I got involved in one of my first gigs was being pandemic planner for a for a health department. So Jess: Okay. Yeah. Drew: it was going around part of the role, talking to large community spaces. And in the US this is sometimes like mega churches asking, hey y'all, if there was a pandemic, what would it look like doing this remotely? Could you hold service? And you know, we go to the coroner's office and say, you know, life would still keep going on. Could you issue some of these death certificates remotely? you know, weddings, can you issue marriage certificates remotely? Going to these places that are large events, large gatherings and just walking them through the process. And it was fascinating to me that, you know, the reply I got more or less ninety percent of the time is like, Yeah, I just can't picture that man. Like that's that's just probably not gonna play out that way. Like it's not gonna happen and Jess: Yeah. Drew: it won't affect us like that. And it was fascinating to me coming out of a public health degree and this is like twenty ten, and hearing that kind of response, going, huh. Like we have this cognitive dissonance of being able to like put anything off in the future. Right? Whether whether it's saving Jess: Mm. Yeah. Drew: personally financially, eating really bad food, whatever the consequence is, we're really good as human beings at putting it off. And I got to see it like up close and early. And that was like fascinating to me. And then that kind of just took me rounds of I just kind of volunteered for everything. When when Jess: Yeah. Drew: a boss was like, who knows how to write a grant for environmental health? I would just raise my hand and lie and then go home and like Google it and try to figure it out. So I got in some really interesting circles that way. And I got to go on deployments and support disasters from hurricanes to wildfires on sanding up medical shelters and eventually, you know, Going on federal stuff and decompressing hospitals and skilled nursing facilities and standing up government hospitals to to triage people out of there. so I kind of just kept saying yes to stuff for better or for worse. and I've I've gotten to work with a lot of different agencies now and see different perspectives of disaster. So that's a long winded way, but a windy, a windy, a windy path. Yeah. Jess: I love it. Kind of the yeah, just fake it till you make it kind of thing. But I think there's there's probably a yeah. I think there's a Drew: A hundred percent. And I'm still in the fake it stage, for sure. Jess: Think we all are half the time. yeah, anytime I've I've met someone and they they're like, No, I I know what I'm doing. I'm like, you are lying. Cause if we get into that mindset, at least my view on it is then you completely shut yourself off from learning. And it's what we're doing today, odds are next week or next month is gonna be so outdated already. So yes, let's Drew: Yeah. Jess: learn from the past, but We've gotta keep on learning and improving. Drew: W what is what's your journey looked like? I'm I'm curious of w how have you wound it up to where you are? Jess: Mine's been a little bit more I wanna say straightforward in terms of Drew: Mm-hmm. Jess: getting into disaster management. prior to it, I had absolutely no idea what I was gonna do. So I was gonna study sports science. and then it was actually my mom who found this degree in disaster management, Drew: That's amazing. Jess: So I studied that. And then for my honours year, you had to intern with an organization that works in the sector. And so I went to go and work with an organization called All Hands and Hearts. And I was with them for Drew: Okay. Jess: like four or five years. and during that time I grew into different roles. So it started as an internship and that then became a permanent position. And I was doing quite similar to you, doing a lot of deployments globally. So we were doing floods, fires, hurricanes, earthquakes, you name it. and in that time I got to then actually learn what the sector is actually really about. Drew: you and in that time I got to then actually learn what the sector is actually really about. Jess: And then I came Drew: and then I Jess: back to South Africa and I worked in the COVID center during the the pandemic. And then that also led on to me working in government for three years. And yeah, learning all about the government space. Drew: back to South Africa and I worked in the COVID center during the the pandemic and then that also led on to me working in government for three years and yeah learning all about the government space. Yeah and then went into disaster nomad which is my consultancy and we now work in like a variety of spaces. So we've got private and public sector clients. Jess: then went into disaster nomad which is my consultancy and we now work in like a variety of spaces. So we've got private and public sector clients. and yeah also just still learning as we go. Drew: And yeah, also just still learning as we go. And what was what were you doing during COVID? What was that experience like for you? so we were running the COVID center, which was it's the disaster management center in South Africa. Well, let me take a step back. the way that it's structured here, we have a national disaster center, and then you've got Jess: so we were running the COVID center, which was it's the disaster management center in South Africa. Well, let me take a step back. the way that it's structured here, we have a national disaster center, and then you've got provincial level centers, which are essentially like state centers, I think if I was to equate it. and so I was at one of the state centers. Drew: Provincial level centers, which are essentially like state centers. Okay. I think if I was to equate it. and so I was at one of the state centers, Jess: And what we were doing is helping with repatriation. So when people were trying to get back in South Africa, making sure that we were dealing with the quarantine process and then working with the public health sector here as well, Drew: and what we were doing is helping with repatriation. So when people were trying to get back to South Africa, making sure that we were dealing with the quarantine process and then working with the public health sector here as well, to get people to quarantine facilities Jess: to get people to quarantine facilities. Drew: Okay. Wow. That's a Jess: Yeah. Drew: that's like a master class of logistics with doing repatriation and like the amount of moving pieces you must have had on your plate w was probably lot. Jess: A lot of moving pieces. and it's yeah, I think that was also why I was so keen to chat to you about the logistics stuff because that's really where you see a very different side of the disaster when you're like, Cool, we've got our plans and we've got all these practices that we know we're meant to do, but how do we execute it? And Drew: A lot of moving pieces. and yeah, I think that was also why I was so keen to chat to you about the logistics stuff. Yeah. Because that's really where you see a very different side of the disaster. When you're like, Cool, we've got our plans and we've got all these practices that we know we're meant to do, but how do we execute it? Yeah. And Jess: How do these things slot together in a a neat way? Drew: How do these things slot together in a neat way? Yeah. Yeah. You know, I found in my experience, it's like you know, I started out early on. I think like a lot of folks, being like in planning, you're helping write or coordinate the updates, the Jess: What's Drew: plans, maybe write some new plans. and then as I got more and more experience, I I would get into operations and the eventually in like leadership roles. I would keep getting stuck in logistics. And that's where all the kinks were. That's where all it was the catalyst of the response. You know, planners are gonna plan. Operations when it comes to like medical and health, public health, sheltering, mass care. They all know what they're doing. They're all professionals. You're bringing in subject matter experts to do it. The doctors know how to doctor, the nurses know how to nurse, the rad technicians know how to do their jobs, respiratory therapists. It's can you get the people to the place and the stuff to the people that they need to do their job? And that's where always ran in. No matter if was a medical shelter for fire, no matter if it was a COVID government field hospital we stood up, an alternate care site. It's getting the stuff and that's where I spent most of my time. And you know, I think I hit like a a breaking point during COVID when it was just every day was trying to predict what we needed. And it was just getting I couldn't understand how we couldn't this is a very large state and and with a lot of resources and how could we not figure out what we need tomorrow? And we have say eight of these field hospitals and we're all just asking for emergency refills, you know, essentially every day, every other day. We we've been doing this for a couple of months. We should be able to know what we need for the next day, the next week. And it it comes down to like so many things in any kind of project management, it's there's a there's data and there's processes. And you what we discovered was that we have a really good job of a main warehouse or a main supply. So essentially your headquarter warehouse, they know it they have in their bays, their racks, their counts, their inventory. Once it starts becoming a complex situation where you have multiple field sites and you're distributing stuff or giving out stuff, That's when it gets a little hairier. And we weren't tracking really well. You know, most disasters I've been on that are that complex, What's being used in the field isn't being tracked nearly as well. It's a little harder environment to track. There's more volunteers used. The systems and tools that we're giving people weren't really made for disasters. Oftentimes they're kind of just made for like Home Depot and you're supposed to adapt it for what what what we're doing, which is super unique what we're doing. Like how it's structured Jess: Yeah. Drew: and what we're sharing and doing is completely different. and that's where my journey, you know, the last five, six years now is has taken me is to try to crack that nut and and put agencies in a position where they're a little more predictive on what they need, what they're using, the burn rates. 'Cause burn rates are really useful data. If we're knowing what we're using the last few days, we can start predicting maybe the next few Jess: Hundred percent. Drew: days and and You gotta have clean data coming in to do that. So that's kind of been my personal journey, you know, with my little team of of figuring that out. No, it's it's amazing, Drew, because there's there's such a strong narrative of there's not enough resource in the sector to get things across the line. But I wonder and and from what you say, I'm kinda picking up that there's Jess: No, but it's it's amazing, Drew, because there's there's such a strong narrative of there's not enough resource in the sector to get things across the line. But I wonder and and from what you're saying, I'm kinda picking up that there's there is enough resource. It's more about knowing where are those resources, how much is there, and then how do we get it to where it needs to be and Drew: There is enough resource. It's more about knowing where are those resources, how much is there? And then how do we get it to where it needs to be? And is that what Logista Response is is essentially trying to solve for? Jess: Is that what Logista Response is is essentially trying to solve for? Drew: It's exactly one of the thesis is there. We are like as a industry, right? And I've I've been at a local level and I've I've helped the feds between FEMA in the US and the small business administration, some Homeland Security, I've helped them with strategies, right? On how can we help disaster survivors? How can we prepare better? And I've I've seen it, everything's underfunded, it's true. But when it comes to the response phase, we generally have enough. It came down even during COVID. There's cases where we didn't have enough things, ventilators and things. But masks, N95s gloves, when we ran out, turns out when we looked back at it post mortem, We had tons of it. We didn't know where it was and we we didn't know where it needed to go for priority. There's a lot of resource hoarding, which we know is going to happen. People have good intentions. They're worried that their hospital, their field site's gonna run out, so they want to get stock a little bit more. But if you don't have a common language, if you don't have a common data set and and you're saying, hey, I see that your site's burning at this rate, I can see into what your field site's using because you're tracking it well. Promising I promise you we'll get you refilled when you need it, but this site over here needs it more. And that is a huge, huge thing and it it gets really messy really quick. I think our plans start out real nice and there's assumptions and plans that A then B then C, but any complex, especially no notice events that go on for a week, two weeks or more, they all just start straying from plans. And you have to assist some tools Jess: Yeah. Drew: and processes to get you there. Yeah. Jess: Yeah. And how how much of it do you think comes down to the fact that Drew: Yeah. And how how much of it do you think comes down to the fact that Jess: a lot of the logistics systems and processes that happen in the humanitarian and disaster space are, to your point, weren't designed for the sector. So we are relying on systems that have not necessarily been designed for the complexities of what we deal with. And then you're expecting responders to adapt Drew: a lot of the logistics systems and processes that happen in the humanitarian and disaster space are to your point, weren't designed for the sector. Yeah. So we are relying on systems that have not necessarily been designed for the complexities of what we deal with. And then you're expecting responses to adapt. Jess: technology that doesn't fit. I don't know what your take is on that. Drew: Technology that doesn't know what your take is on that. If you look at it from the outside, it's an absolutely insane request. Like it's like asking a surgeon to go do surgery, but you don't give her like scalpels and the tools she needs, and you're like, Well, here's some scissors and some other things that we found. Will that do? And then you ask her why it didn't go well, and you're like, What? of course. Yeah. Jess: Yeah. Drew: there's like So this is where we landed because I'm not I naturally don't have a logistics background. I was just problem solving problem solving. I don't have a tech background. I don't know how to program a website, nonetheless, a system that's made for us for for logistics. Jess: Mm. Drew: But what I found there was two things going on. One, we're adapting systems that aren't made for us, things like Fishbowl and Zinventory, and these are great systems. They're just Jess: Yeah, yeah. Drew: in my experience and talking to hundreds and hundreds of agencies. They don't work for our unique needs. The data structure, the way it's set up. We have field sites that need to be deployed immediately and they need to feed back into a warehouse. And it needs to be really simple to use because we're having people just in time training at those sites. They're not using it's not working a commercial system like that. And then the other end of the spectrum, there's these custom builds. And companies will come in and they're built by tech people. So An agency with good intention goes, you know, we really like this hooked up to our our vendor so we can just order stuff by clicking some buttons and and the the tech vendor will go, yeah, we can build that. Yeah, yeah, you can build it. And then we'd also like to know this in real time and geotag and track everything. Okay, we can build it. And by the time they're done, it's 40 levels thick of tech and it's not usable. And just one example, one of our team members was a subject matter expert on a selection panel for a state in the US on one of these tech builds. And it ended up costing the state the first build of it six hundred thousand dollars. And then they came back and they Jess: Neaters, yeah. Drew: said, We're not done, we need another six hundred thousand. So they ended up scrapping it at that point. So they spent six hundred thousand, got nothing out of it because they just kept building it. So it was Jess: my Drew: one of the like key things of like when we started Logista was we're emergency managers, we're gonna bring on our own tech people because we tried to have a vendor make it for us and it just it ran Jess: Mm. Drew: into that. And so what we did was we didn't want outside money. We didn't want investors because then they get a say so. So we just did competitions. We spent two and a half years going flying to New York and to DC and doing these pitch competitions. We ended up raising enough money to to I think it was a couple hundred grand to get stuff built and going. And then we got say so, right? We had our own tech team that we can have conversations Jess: Yeah. Drew: with. We can bring in the people that are mission aligned and we can we can build it from an emergency management perspective. And it's niche. So it's for federal, state, local, emergency management, and health departments that Jess: Yeah. Drew: do pharmaceuticals and and and material, but it's something that, you know, is needed, I think. So that was kind of the journey of how we done that. Jess: But I think that speaks perfectly to that kind of philosophy you guys have on your your website of starting in the field. 'cause to your point, you know, you don't have a tech background or even necessarily a logistics background, but you understand the needs of the sector. Drew: But I think that speaks perfectly to that kind of philosophy you guys have on your your website of starting in the field. Mm-hmm. 'cause to your point, you know, you don't have a tech background or even necessarily a logistics background, but you understand the needs of the sector. I I just I get so frustrated with these solutions that are presented as like the next best thing in the sector. Yeah. and then when you go and and actually speak to someone about it, you're like, You have clearly not done anything in the space before. It's Jess: I I just I get so frustrated with these solutions that are presented as like the next best thing in the sector. and then when you go and and actually speak to someone about it, you're like, You have clearly not done anything in the space before. Drew: true. And I think like what we find ourselves, we're like Big believers in the 80-20 rule. If we can give you 80% there, the last 20%, you can probably fill with processes and get yourself overline. You got to have some good processes. But what we don't put into the system is just as important what we do. Because people will sometimes agency will be like, hey, can we have X, Y, and Z? And occasionally we'll say, Yeah, yeah, we can actually build that. That's the easy part to do that. But we don't put certain things in there because it gets too layered. And then you won't get good data or people won't use it and they'll just go back to pen and paper. And there's no you might as well have an Excel sheet at that point. have a whole list on our roadmap that we gotta test and try and see how we integrate it, but we're not gonna give you everything because people won't use it Jess: there's another organization that I work with, Baotree, which is they're not logistics but just a similar vein on the the technology piece is they've built very intentionally around simplicity and not just building features for the sake of having them there. It's like that intentional build and then you fill the spaces with what else you need. Drew: There's another organization that I work with, Bayer Tree, which is you know not logistics, but just a similar bane on the the technology piece is they've built very intentionally around simplistic and not just building features for the sake of having them there. It's like that intentional build and then you fill the spaces with what else you need. Jess: but in doing that you get really keen data Drew: but in doing that you get really clean data. Jess: and at the end of the day that's what you need. Like data, data, data right now is like everyone wants data. But if it's not clean and it doesn't actually make sense, then it's not adding any value. so yeah, I I love that approach that you guys are taking. Drew: And at the end of the day, that's what you need. Like data, data, data right now is like everyone wants data. But if it's not clean and it doesn't actually make sense, then it's not adding any value. Yeah. so yeah, I I love that approach that you guys are taking. Yeah. I you know, our our our kind of vision with the company and you know, looking down the road if as it gets adoption is like if you have that clean data. We should be able predict at a high at a 500 foot level of a hurricane hitting this type of population, this type of hurricane with these factors. You need X, Y, and Z amount roughly. So these PAR levels, you know, that we're we're stocking can be a lot better informed because people have been using the system. It's been clean data for years. If it's predictable, we should be able to really mobilize resources in a smart it actually makes me think about something you posted recently about making bad days smaller. Jess: it actually makes me think about something you posted recently about making bad days smaller. Drew: And that's kind of what this feels like to me is in a way that Logista is also helping with making those bad days smaller. Yeah. Like what what does making bad days smaller actually mean to you? Jess: And that's kinda what this feels like to me is in a way that Logista is also helping with making those bad days smaller. Like what what does making bad days smaller actually mean to you? Drew: you know, in in the US I'll just start with a long story. We we've poured in Jess: Ha ha ha. Drew: the last twenty five years billions and billions into the preparedness section. And disaster mortality rates have essentially not gotten any better. Okay. Okay. So if we look at a disaster thing as like Prevention and mitigation and then preparedness, response, and recovery, right? That circle that goes around there. If we poured so much into that, you'd expect an outcome. Right now, there's not an outcome. It's not good enough. Like nobody, that's not a return on investment that anyone deserves. It's hundreds of billions and no disaster mortality change. And it an analogy, I there's so many. One I'd use it's like if we want to look at make it real simple: ambulances and car crashes. So if we want to lower car crash fatalities, well, response would be that ambulance going there faster. So we can do training and exercise and maybe shave off a few seconds if we really, really try. Preparedness would be doing those drills and exercises that would be getting them better tires on the ambulances, training the crew better, get them on faster truck. And we can maybe shave off a few more seconds. But we pivot to the prevention and mitigation, well, what if we made safer roads? What if we put in seat belts in the cars? What if we did campaigns on drunken driving? what if we made the cars that when they they have high impacts, they collapse in a more safe way? And that's what we actually did, and we lowered disaster mortality from car accidents huge by doing that. We don't put all our effort into Jess: Amazing. Drew: just the ambulance, and that's what we're doing in disaster response. In the US right now is we we don't look at it as a risk reduction. We look at as how do we prepare and how do we respond? And I think a better measurement is how much nastiness can a community absorb before they need that outside help. If that makes sense. No, it it does make sense. Jess: Hmm. Yeah. No, it it does make sense. Drew: I think that is the the big challenge that we are facing at the moment is is around this conversation because we know the value in those proactive phases and the cost savings and all those things, but we are still seeing a lot more funding going to when something happens, then let's jump in, let's pour resource into it. yeah, I I don't know, I don't know what it's gonna take to shift. Jess: I think that is the the big challenge that we are facing at the moment is is around this conversation because we know the value in those proactive phases and the cost savings and all those things, but we are still seeing a lot more funding going to when something happens, then let's jump in, let's pour resource into it. yeah, I I don't know I don't know what it's gonna take to shift. Drew: It's hard. That narrative. It's Jess: That narrative. Drew: a huge hard shift because you know it's the capes and sirens syndrome is as my friend Dr. Kime calls it. It's it's yeah, Jess: Yeah. Drew: you got it's flashy, it can get on the news, it's response that's in front of it. And what what I'm asking people to do with prevention and mitigation and shifting doesn't mean give up on preparedness response and leave disaster victims themselves. Jess: Yeah. Drew: No. I'm talking about pivoted large amount of that to Prevention mitigation, but what I'm asking people to do is invest in something that may or may not happen. And that's a hard sell. Exactly. If it does happen, it might be a decade later. yeah. Jess: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Drew: And that's a hard sell politically. When you're when you have local and state and federal, you know, office holders, sometimes it's as short as two years. If you're lucky, it's four years for one of those people. What is their political incentive to invest in something ten years, twenty years down the line? That's hard. It's a really hard sell. yeah. But we know it's the best tool we have in our in our toolbox. Yeah. No, it is. And I mean, if you've got a the solve for this, I would love to know. Because how do we demonstrate value of prevention mitigation when success actually means that something doesn't happen? Jess: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean Yeah. No, it is. And I mean if you've got a the solve for this, I would love to know. Cause how do we demonstrate value of prevention mitigation when success actually means that something doesn't happen? Drew: You know, it's it's a really hard sell. Public health. has done things like this, they've reduced in the US they've drastically reduced smoking rates, right? That's a health consequence that you can put off for decades. Jess: Yeah. Drew: and they've really reduced it. There's a few things that there's no silver bullet, but there's a few things we know that are helpful. One is constant communication. When they do these public health campaigns about smoking, they they really started in the late 80s and ramped them up in the 90s. It was constant campaigns everywhere. Another thing we know is it helps to paint A positive future. So we know that when we talk about climate change and we talk about it in the negative consequences, the world's gonna go to crap. The trees are gonna die. The air's gonna be bad. We're gonna run out of water. People tend when they ask them to feel a little helpless and they're less motivated to take action. When you paint a world of this is what it could look like if we take action, it's shared water. There's more access to parks, it's more predictable weather, and you can have a nicer summer. And you paint a world what could be People feel more motivated and able to take action. And I think there's lessons in some of these long-term things that we've studied and how people react to delayed consequences that we can apply to this. It's not easy. But we it has to start at a local level, at the local communities, and saying this is what our community could look like if we invested in prevention and mitigation, if we shifted that. Here's one where we do it now, right? And this is what it looks like. And it's a hard sell, but you have to have leadership in place that cares too. I you know, I've worked with local emergency management agencies and state ones, and their leadership didn't care. They've tried to present it and they've done it again. And you gotta wait for a leadership change. You gotta wait till the team's on board too, and then keep going at it. Yeah. And I mean, Drew, in your experience, I don't know if if Jess: Yeah. And I mean, Drew, in your experience, I don't know if if Drew: you felt the same thing, but something that I've felt quite strongly is that the health stuff is one thing. because every single per person I think can relate to what bad health might feel like, which is a oversimplification of that. But what I'm trying to get is with the disaster stuff, Jess: you felt the same thing, but something that I've felt quite strongly is that the health stuff is one thing, because every single per person I think can relate to what bad health might feel like, which is a oversimplification of that. But what I'm trying to get as with the disaster stuff. Drew: I've often felt like Jess: I've often felt like people still see it as a government function or as an emergency function. And and that there isn't this ownership from the general public or an acceptance of it or like okay, yes, we should also be advocating for this because and I I don't know if it's an education gap because we we don't push it in schools Drew: People still see it as a government function or as an emergency function and that there isn't this ownership from the general public or an acceptance of it. I don't know if it's an education gap, yeah, because we we don't push it in schools But have you Jess: But have you experienced something similar? Drew: Experience at least some of that. Yeah, I think it's very real. I know in again from my a public health lens, those who have the quickest vaccination rates are those often coming from in when they come to the US immigrants are the ones who coming from countries where they saw those diseases. So we know that people who've seen these nasty diseases are the first ones in lines to get vaccinated when they come to the US. And there's something about exposure to disasters too. Jess: Yeah. Drew: California is a state with tons of wildfires. They generally, when when we've looked at it, tend to have the largest amount of preparedness kits per capita. They're ready to go. It's not nearly as high as we need, but of all the other states, well, they're exposed to disaster most. They're talked about. It's it's a daily part of life there almost, especially during summer. so there's something with the exposure there that that's important. Yeah. It's a it's Jess: Yeah. Yeah. Drew: a tough one to crack. What do you think? Yeah, I Jess: Yeah, I I've I've been thinking about it a lot recently because what you're talking about, you know, people that have experienced something then they're more willing to engage. we don't want people to necessarily have to experience these things. Drew: I've I've been thinking about it a lot recently because what you're talking about, you know, people that have experienced something and they're more willing to engage. we don't want people to necessarily have to experience these things. Jess: And I I we've we've seen it a lot more here in South Africa where they are trying to bring emergency and disaster stuff into schools, but it's it's still in its infancy. And I think maybe that is something that needs to grow and and that might have have a positive influence on it because when you do have kids, who are saying, you know, mom we need to do this, mom we need to do this, dad, we need to do that. then Drew: And that I mean we've we've seen it a lot more here in South Africa where they are trying to bring emergency and disaster stuff into schools. but it's it's still in its infancy. And I think maybe that is something that needs to grow and and that might have have a positive influence on it because when you do have kids you're saying, you know, mom we need to do this, mom we need to do this, dad, we need to do that. Yeah. then Jess: I think it it's helps to push the narrative as well from younger demographics, but I think also just public sector and private sector entities buying into it more. that it it doesn't just get left to the emergency services. but that everyone sees, Okay, I might work in I mean we're we're doing a lot with tourism now. And like that is not typically an emergency management function. But Drew: I think it it's helps to push the narrative as well from younger demographics, but I think also just public sector and private sector entities buying into it more. Yeah. that it it doesn't just get left to the emergency services, but that everyone sees, okay, I might work and I mean we're we're doing a lot with tourism now. And like that is not typically an emergency management function. But Jess: those tourism operators are in a community and when the flood comes through, yes, their lodge might get impacted, but then it's the community around that as well. And so then what can that lodge or that hotel do and help with preventing those things because the community members that live around there, they're the staff that serve those hotels, etc. So I think there's maybe something in that. Drew: those tourism operators are in a community and when the flood comes through, yes, their lodge might get impacted, but then it's the community around that as well. And so then what can that lodge or that hotel do and help with preventing those things because the community members that live around there, they're the staff that service those hotels, etc. So I think there's maybe something in that Jess: But it's it's a lot of time pack. Drew: But it's I think you're digging the right area, right? It's a combination of things and the the policy thing you talk of. In Finland they have a policy because of their recent history, through the world wars, they they have a policy where any kind of building, whether it's private or municipal, of a certain size, and it's not huge, has to have bunkers that are ready to go and house people, essentially. And the it starts setting the minimum bar of a preparedness culture, right? And people, this is how we just wired, will tend to go to wherever the lowest bar is set. So wherever we set it as policymakers, right? That's not gonna make the culture, but it's gonna help guide it to some degree. I think of two of I'm a big like visualization thing. Like one thing I used to do when I was more involved in community preparedness and you know I try to paint the picture for These populations we go out and do these presentations to and I'd say, so here's what it might look like when we have an earthquake. The first responders aren't coming for you. How many do you think we have? And say, Well, we have about between the the police, law enforcement, and the firefighters it's about 800 to 1 in this county. So for 800 residents, there's 1. So they're not coming. That really opened up some of their eyes of like, You know, that's they're overwhelmed. There's 800 of us for 1 of them. And then there's just another thing I recently saw where completely different. I'm going on tangents now. But it have you seen these like Jess: That's fun. Drew: orbs that are essentially like how much electricity you use and it will glow darker or brighter, I'm sorry. So the more Jess: No. Drew: so you hook it up to your house and the more electricity you use, it'll grow brighter. And they found that like families would start, they've cut their electricity bill down like incredible amounts, anywhere between like 40 to 70 percent. And the family members start getting it. They're like, don't make the orb. Let's see how low we can get it all day. And then they found that people in the neighborhood started competing with each other. And they wanted the households to compete. And they got into it. So there's something with people just aren't aware necessarily of what it might look like. And painting that picture, Jess: Mm. Drew: how we paint that picture, that's really the The art of it, but painting that picture Jess: Yeah. Drew: for them of what it looks like and being realistic and where they fit into that. Yeah. Yeah, it's like it's almost something like how do we gamify this stuff? because I think there is just a intrinsic competitive spirit amongst humans. How do we tap into that to get Jess: Yeah. Yeah, it's like there's almost something like how do we gamify this stuff? 'cause I think there is just a intrinsic competitive spirit amongst humans. And like how do we tap into that to get more people on board? Drew: More people on board. Yeah. It's cool. Yeah, I I could spend all day trying to come up with solutions to these things and at the end of the day I'm like, we still are nowhere closer, but it's been fun to try think through it. For sure. No, that's amazing. Jess: Yeah, I I could spend all day like trying to come up with solutions to these things and at the end of the day I'm like, we still are nowhere closer, but it's been fun to tap into it. that's amazing. Drew: Yeah, Drew, I I think I I wanna bring this whole thing home with again going back to something that you posted because I was like this is crazy. this week I am presenting at the the World Safety Conference on the link between climate, environment, and disaster resilience. And I actually titled Jess: Yeah, Drew, I I think I I want to bring this whole thing home with again going back to something that you posted because I was like, this is crazy. this week I am presenting at the the World Safety Conference on the link between climate, environment, and disaster resilience. And I actually titled My session disasters have our fingerprints all over them and then saw your post about Drew: My session disasters have our fingerprints all over them and then saw your post about Jess: how disasters are not natural. and they they do have our fingerprints on them. and I'd I'd love to get your perspective on that. Drew: How disasters are not natural. and they they do have our fingerprints on them. and I'd I'd love to get your perspective on that. you're just speaking my language. And where's where's the World Safety Conference at? So it's happening here in Cape Town this year. at the the convention center. Yeah. Jess: So it's happening here in Cape Town this year, at the the convention center. Yeah. Drew: That's amazing. That's gonna be so cool. Super cool, yeah. Jess: Super cool, yeah. Drew: we love saying natural disaster, and to me there's nothing natural about disaster, right? There's hazards that are in this world floods, earthquakes, wildfires. Disasters are what we chose to invest in before that hazard happened and the effects that it has. And we just saw one recently and and There's good reasons and and not good reasons why they become disasters. But I think the goal is that we need to have honest conversations about real trade-offs. We're not gonna be able to prevent and mitigate all hazards. It's you know, our our whole industry is the decision to invest a finite amount of resources somewhere. Where do we want to put those? And that's where again I always pivot back to prevention and mitigation because it's has biggest impact we can. But we saw the earthquake in In Chile, wasn't it? they had one in Colombia and Venezuela. And I think in Chile, but it was, you know, catastrophic. There's another one this summer in in rural Colombia. Catastrophic. They don't have the resources for those building codes that would really help prevent it. In Japan they had it a few weeks ago and damage to the buildings But it was a 7.0 earthquake and relatively a breeze for that community because they built to those codes and and and they invested into that mitigation. It's the same disaster. One one recognized the hazard, had the resources, and then had the wherewithal to invest those resources into it. So it's all a decision. It's our choice as as humankind of where we want to put those. But I think, Let's not fool ourselves and not have that honest conversation about okay, we're deciding either Jess: Yeah. Drew: not to invest those resources or we're deciding to respond when the bodies are already down. And not to get into more boring stats and stuff, but we know after disaster impact, a trauma impact, disaster victims die within one hour, eighty percent of them. So we're are we gonna outrace Jess: exactly. Drew: the clock? When a tornado happens and knocks through these buildings, are we gonna all get them there within one hour? That's an insane equation to keep investing that much into the response and preparing for the response and then recovering. Jess: Yeah. Drew: so I think that honest conversation about trade offs is something we can have, and at least we have that conversation. Jess: No, I I yeah, I completely agree. Drew: No I I yeah, I can completely agree. Jess: Because I mean, even this this last week, just watching the the news headlines around what's happened in Nepal, and there's still the narrative of natural disaster. And I mean this one in in my opinion is like so far from even being classified natural by by any means. But it's there's still the narrative that's being shared in in the Drew: Because I mean even this this last week, just watching the the news advisor on what's happened in the poll and there's still the narrative of natural disaster. And I mean this one in in my opinion is like so far from even being classified natural. yeah by by any means. But it's there's still the narrative that's being shared in in this Jess: Global news and Drew: Global news and Jess: I think it it almost gives us permission to be like, it's not our fault. When we say it's a natural disaster 'cause it's like, well it's out of our hands. Drew: I think it it almost gives us permission to be like, it's not our fault. When we say it's a natural disaster 'cause it's like, well it's out of our hands. Jess: And yeah, I I mean Drew: And yeah, I I mean Jess: How how do we how do we change that narrative? How do you shift the the thinking around it? Because to what you're saying, I think until we can get people to understand that these things are not natural, then that prevention, mitigation conversation it's gonna continue being so difficult to have. Drew: How how do we how do we change that narrative? How do you shift the the thinking around it? Because what you're saying, I think until we can get people to understand that these things are not natural, then that prevention mitigation conversation is going to continue being so difficult to have. Yeah. Calling it natural kind of almost like relinquishes the moral. obligation we have to it, right? And they're like, all right, now we're being the the good guys and gals of responding. But nothing we could do because it was this natural Jess: Yeah. Drew: disaster. Yeah. Yeah. It it's it's a tough one. And again, I think it takes decades of campaigning, of seeing it work, of telling those good stories, of visualizing it for people, of staying in the ear. there's communities doing it and I think there are fascinating case studies of Hey, in in the US, you know, they've they've some of these local jurisdictions have turned down federal funding and say, We're gonna actually focus on the mitigation prevention side and just fund it ourselves because we don't want to adhere to these guardrails that you're putting on where these funds can go. We'll just do it ourselves. And it's inspiring to me that Jess: Yeah. Drew: those leaders made that. They talked to the experts and the emergency management and public health and public safety and and they made those choices. So it's happening. And they're doing it across in other spots in Europe with the with the risk reduction and they they figured it out, you know, because of their their, you know, relatively recent history of conflict and They have to be able to reduce risk and you're not gonna respond your way out of it. So it's happening in places. The question is, how do we scale it to different cultures, have different values and different Jess: Yeah. Drew: access to resources? Yeah. A hundred percent. I think there there's so many really great use cases and examples of where things are are being done really well. Jess: Hundred percent. I think there there's so many really great use cases and examples of where things are are being done really well. but then how how do you adapt that to individual contexts and and yeah, it it can't be a one size fits all. And you know, looking at what one country is doing, like for South Africa, if we were to look at what Drew: But then how how do you adapt that to individual contexts and and yeah, it it can't be a one size fits all. And you know, looking at what one country is doing, like for South Africa, if we were to look at what the US is doing, our demographics, our environment, our economy, it's it's all yeah, history, everything is so different. Jess: the US is doing. It's our demographics, our environment, our economy, it's it's all yeah, history, everything is so different. Drew: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. I I wanna just give you a moment to get on a soapbox if you would like to. is there anything you want to close off with? Anything like Jess: true. I I wanna just give you a moment to get on a soapbox if you would like to. is there anything you want to close off with? Anything you'd like to say your piece about? or anything you want to share more about. Drew: like to say your piece about or anything you share All I all I want to share is gratitude for everybody who has has a hand in this huge, huge puzzle from local, state to federal people, from emergency managers to public health and public safety people are grinding away at their communities and they do a lot of work that doesn't get seen. And I think that's the whole point is that you know, I always say a a boring Tuesday is somebody's life's work that you'll never know. And I think that's an amazing, amazing thing. So I'm just overwhelmed with gratitude that there's people out there like yourself and all the people that you know you and I work with and admire and look up to and get to collaborate with that are are doing this every day and grinding away. So thank you to all of them. Jess: I can't say anything better than that, so thank you, Drew. Drew: I can't say anything better than that. So thank you, Drew.