Latest / Galaxies and Goddesses: A Sci-Fi & Fantasy Bookcast / Tolkien’s Legacy: The Hero’s Journey and Literary Nods to Middle-earth
Transcript
- Influenced by Tolkien Andrea: I’m Andrea. Elizabeth: And I'm Elizabeth. Andrea: Join us as we chat about sci-fi and fantasy books and beyond. Elizabeth: Looking for a little escape from reality. So are we. Andrea: Welcome to Galaxies and Goddesses. Elizabeth: On this week's episode, we're talking about authors who were influenced by J.R.R. Tolkien. Andrea: We'll be chatting about how Lord of the Rings helped shape modern fantasy and inspired writers like Christopher Paolini and R.F. Kuang. Elizabeth: Along with how Tolkien's impact expanded beyond fantasy to other genres and contemporaries of his time. Andrea: Before reading Lord of the Rings I don't know if I realized how big of an impact Tolkien had, but so many genre tropes, like what an elf acts or appears like, or what a dwarf acts or appears like, or what a wizard is, so much of that was defined or shaped and based off of Lord of the Rings. Andrea: Were you aware of that, Elizabeth? Do you see that as you read fantasy books? Do you feel like they're kind of in conversation with Lord of the Rings and Tolkien? Elizabeth: I guess I haven't honestly thought about it that much, but he really did define them. I honestly can't really imagine those types of characters being any different, and so I think: Yes, it all comes from Tolkien. Elizabeth: And honestly like I think, if someone were to try to write a book today and write those sorts of characters, but have them be really really different than what we think of them as, I don't know how good of a book that would be. It might be like too jarring, or maybe it would be considered really avant-garde or really innovative. Elizabeth: Maybe somebody should try. But I don't know if anyone's gonna be able to define them better, or maybe if someone tried to write them a little bit differently, it probably would be like, this is wrong. You know, it wouldn't feel right, but if someone could write them completely differently, like… Andrea: Yeah. Elizabeth: Every single aspect of it completely differently, maybe that could be a new paradigm shift. But yeah. So I don't know. I encourage people who like to write, I'd encourage them to try, 'cause I think it'd be interesting to see what that could look like. Andrea: There’s even a Wikipedia page dedicated to Tolkien's impact on fantasy. Elizabeth: Sure. Andrea: I was just kind of surprised at that there's a whole page dedicated to that. Andrea: There were a few authors that kind of tried to push back on Tolkien's ideas of fantasy a little bit, and they mentioned Philip Pullman the author of The Golden Compass. The magic in that series is very different from Tolkien's world. There's no dwarves or elves, but it's a very kind of different type of magic system. Andrea: According to the Wikipedia page, they're saying that Philip Pullman created intentionally non-Tolkien type of fantasy with a different view on the purpose of life. It's kind of interesting. Elizabeth: It's been a while since I've read ‘em, but does everyone have this magic inherent in them, but then it's expressed through their… Andrea: Their daemon, their little animal familiar. Yes. Yeah. Elizabeth: That follows them around. Andrea: Yes. Elizabeth: Yeah. I guess a different take on like the meaning of life? Andrea: Right. Andrea: I think that's what it's saying, Elizabeth: Hmmm. Those are good books to, but not as good as the Lord of the Rings. Andrea: It's hard to beat it. Everything you read after that you're comparing it back to Lord of the Rings. Andrea: So the book that I read immediately after Lord of the Rings was Katabasis by R.F. Kuang, and in the first chapter almost she talks about lembas bread. And I'm like, okay, lembas bread isn't real, right? Andrea: Like that's just, that's a Tolkien reference. I was in Middle-earth for so long. I'm like, but lembas bread's not like a British thing, right? Like, I'm not missing something here. Elizabeth: Like biscuits instead of cookies? Andrea: But no, not every book has lembas bread, but that was R.F. Kuang's way of referencing Tolkien and paying some respect to his impact on the genre. Elizabeth: I also read that book fairly recently, and when I came across the use of the term lembas bread, I almost had to do like a double take. ‘Cause maybe I'd read a couple books between Lord of the Rings and Katabasis, but had to question it like, not necessarily like, oh, is that like a British thing? I think I knew that's not a real thing. Lembas bread is not a real thing. But I had to stop and be like, “That is Tolkien, that's The Lord of the Rings right?” I guess maybe what I was thinking is: did he sort of invent this idea of lembas bread? Andrea: Yeah. Elizabeth: Or was it referenced in other books as well, maybe not a Tolkien thing, but a fictional thing that that someone else came up with before him. But no, no, no. He definitely came up with it. Andrea: There's another point in Katabasis where the book that Peter Murdoch brings with him on his trip to hell was Lord of the Rings. If you have to go on an epic adventure and you can only bring a couple of books that Lord of the Rings would be in your backpack. Andrea: So I thought that was a cute reference. Andrea: Some of the other authors we were gonna talk about like Christopher Paolini and Robin Hobb, they show it's different generations that he influenced. Andrea: Robin Hobb has been writing a very long time and she is still, active within the writing community and conventions. And she shows up to do interviews for release events for other authors. And I haven't actually read any of her books, but I want to read them because I know that she was influenced by Tolkien and I know her work has gone on to influence other authors as well. Elizabeth: I feel like people influence each other all the time. And at what point does influence go beyond just influence to copyright infringement, or at what point does influence go beyond the point of being something new and just recreating someone else's work? That is a question that I don't know if anybody can answer It seems like at times it's being answered in the judicial system, like through courts. Oh, I think it was in the last couple years the Estate of Marvin Gaye, sued Ed Sheeran. Andrea: Oh. Elizabeth: Because they thought that it was copyright infringement for one of his songs. Elizabeth: And the Estate of Marvin Gaye, I think his family was arguing that he had stolen from Marvin Gaye. Anyway, Ed Sheeran won in the end because, if you listen to the two songs there are hints of it and you're like, “yeah, I guess a little bit”. But they're also entirely different songs. So I'm glad that he won. Andrea: Me too. Andrea: Yeah. Elizabeth: That really stifles creativity I think because, you know, with anything in the creative process, you first have to learn from other people and you have to learn your craft and that requires imitating other people first. Elizabeth: And then over time you can innovate on that and make something your own. And so that just happens with anything. Elizabeth: The same could be said for Tolkien that he wasn't writing in a vacuum. Of course there were lots of things that influenced him as well. And some of these things are stuff that we've talked about already. You know, he absolutely was influenced by Norse mythology and his studying of Beowulf. But another thing that sort of early on as I was rereading The Lord of the Rings. Elizabeth: A friend of mine also started rereading The Lord of the Rings. coincidentally, her husband is a really big reader. He has a master's in English. He's an English teacher. And he has not read The Lord of the Rings, which both of us, are taken aback by because we know that he's going to love 'em. Elizabeth: And when my friend was starting The Lord of the Rings and getting really excited about them, and she said that it was sparking her love for reading, and he said to her, but it's just a classic example of the hero's journey. Andrea: And I feel like that's not a reason not to read it. Elizabeth: Right. Andrea: To me that's like, “Yes” Elizabeth: Well yeah. Andrea: Exactly! It's a classic example. Andrea: And it's a good one. Elizabeth: I then went down this weird mind wormhole about the hero's journey, and it made me realize story, any kind of a conflict could be boiled down to the hero's journey. Like the hero's journey is what life is. When my friend mentioned this, I had no idea what she was talking about and I instantly Googled it. And one of the easiest things to find is an image of this circle to represent the hero's journey. Elizabeth: So what exactly is the hero's journey? It was described by Joseph Campbell, who was a professor of literature at Sarah Lawrence College, who worked in comparative mythology and comparative religion. And I think this theory is about a hundred years old or close to it, and basically what he was trying to do is boil mythology down into its most basic components to provide a basic structure for what any mythology is. This image is called Joseph Campbell's 17 Stage Monomyth. Elizabeth: So it starts at the top of the circle with equilibrium or stability, and then there is a call to adventure followed by a refusal of the call. Then there's some sort of supernatural aid. There's a crossing of the first threshold. Elizabeth: So that goes into this initiation stage. You cross over into the threshold of this adventure. Elizabeth: Then next thing it says is belly of the whale. Then road of trials. Then meeting with the goddess. Then woman as temptress, atonement with the father, an apotheosis, the ultimate boon refusal of the return, magic flight, rescue from without, crossing the return threshold. So now sort of coming back from your adventure, returning. Now the master of two worlds, followed by the freedom to live. And then returning back to equilibrium. And at no point do I remember in The Lord of the Rings, Frodo actually physically, literally a being in the belly of the whale. Andrea: Yeah. Elizabeth: Metaphorically speaking, I think just listening to those different stages, you're like, well, yeah, that's like the whole story of The Lord of the Rings summed up. I think the more that I looked into it, I think this whole idea is not necessarily widely accepted as the end all, be all description of mythology. But I think there's a lot there that a lot of people would kind of nod their heads to. Andrea: Hmm. Elizabeth: It does kind of vibe with what we think of as… Andrea: The Hero's Journey. Elizabeth: Exactly. If Joseph Campbell was trying to create this theory based off of mythology, and then Tolkien was very interested in Norse mythology. Elizabeth: And so if someone's going to take a lot of influence from mythology, any kind of mythology, and then there's this theory from Joseph Campbell that's trying to describe the classic steps of any kind of mythology. Well then, yeah, it's gonna seem like The Lord of the Rings is the hero's journey. At first it sort of made me feel like, oh, well, does that sort of cheapen it a bit? If you think that it's just following this really basic step by step, outline of a story. Andrea: Formula? Elizabeth: Formula. Elizabeth: And then I started reading The Fellowship of the Ring and you just get sucked into it. I forgot about this whole idea of the hero's journey, 'cause it's just so delightful of a read. Elizabeth: You can just enjoy the book. But then afterwards, if someone like a professor is trying to come up with some sort of basic description of mythology, I don't think that cheapens the mythology. And so, no, I think it just if someone wants to go write a really good book, a really incredible adventure, we probably all should just follow the outline for the hero’s journey. Andrea: Right. Andrea: Tropes exist for a reason, and part of that reason is because it's the type of story you enjoy, right? You could be like, oh, are you gonna say, oh, I don't wanna read that book or see that movie because it's an underdog story. It's fun to watch an underdog story. It's fun to see someone succeed and do well against the odds. Right? That doesn't mean you should discount it because it's been done before, because it's gonna be different based on who the author is and based on the story that they're writing. Andrea: Everybody can read an underdog story over and over again, and it's not gonna get old because of the authors that are writing it. Elizabeth: It's still gonna be a really good story. Yeah. Andrea: Tolkien inspired so many people because they enjoyed reading the book and then it inspired them to write their own stories and to create a fantasy world not just for kids, but is also for adults that you can lose yourself in. I think that's why it inspired so many authors and generations of authors. Elizabeth: I think it really speaks to the magic of the story or the strength of the story. The fact that, there are so many people out there that finish it and the fact that it inspires people to create themselves. Elizabeth: Not every book out there has fan fiction, but when something is good enough for someone to finish and to have that excitement and to think, I'm gonna go do something now like that, yeah, I think that really speaks to the, the magic of any kind of story. Andrea: I mean, how many books or movies inspire people to do a pilgrimage? At some point in my life I would like to go to New Zealand. I kind of wanted to go to New Zealand based on the movies. But now, after reading the book, if I could walk into a Hobbit home in New Zealand, it would make my day. Andrea: It's gonna be a while before that happens. With small children, it's gonna be a while before they're old enough to appreciate something like that. I've never been to New Zealand and now it is a country I would like to visit someday. Andrea: I guess another series that a lot of people do book theme tours for is Outlander, Diana Gabaldon's Outlander. To go like… Elizabeth: To Scotland? Andrea: In Scotland. Yeah. Elizabeth: Yeah. Elizabeth: Going back to the hero's journey I feel like, once again when I first heard this idea of the hero's journey, I went down this weird sort of thought wormhole about it. And if you take these different numbers of steps and boil it down even more, it's almost like anyone trying to wrestle with a problem. Like, it's almost like any problem in the world you could argue is like a hero's journey. One of the initial steps of the hero's journey is refusal of the call. So, you sort of drag your feet. You don't wanna have to deal with it. Andrea: The reluctant hero is what Frodo referred to quite often, but then you end up seeing more reluctant heroes other places, right? Elizabeth: Yeah. Andrea: Yeah. Elizabeth: And there's sort of crossing of the first threshold. So now you're in it, right? You've taken the step to deal with, whatever problem. And then there's help along the way. You know at one point in the hero's journey, there's the meeting with the goddess, which in the case of Frodo could be Galadriel in Lothorian, and then the refusal of the return. Elizabeth: So you've dealt with it, but now, do you go back to regular life again. Crossing the return threshold, you're back to your normal life. And now you're the master of two worlds, and that can be the case with almost anything, but definitely with my own personal journey anytime you travel and then you come back and now the journey has changed you. Andrea: Right. Elizabeth: But then you always carry that with you that the things that you saw and learned and experienced you will always have that within you. And then you return back to, equilibrium stability. Elizabeth: There are lots of things that you could boil down to a very basic structure of the Hero's journey. And so I think that, that kind of an outline, that kind of a structure is so prevalent, is so widespread and really seems to … Andrea: Resonate? Elizabeth: With so many things, I think just shows the value of that kind of a story. Elizabeth: And so yeah, when these friends of mine talking about the hero's journey and for a second I was like, not to say that it was like stealing some of the magic of the Lord of the Rings. But I think maybe, if anything it really, supports the magic of the Lord of the Rings because it is such a timeless story. Andrea: Well and I wonder if even the symbolic nature of Lord of the Rings, you know, that the ring is a circle and that so much is this cycle of power. Like a circle, the shape of the ring, and this idea of the hero's journey. I think they're all connected. I don't think that's just by chance. It could have been some other type of jewelry or amulet of some sort. Andrea: And the fact that it's a circle, I think is intentionally symbolic. Andrea: I only read the first book in the series, but Terry Brooks wrote The Chronicles of Shannara and the first book, I think he inherits these like elf stones, these magical stones. And it's a different vessel for this powerful charm. I guess my point is I just think that the ring is a symbolic shape as well as a symbolic piece of jewelry. Yeah. Elizabeth: A circle ring is probably one of the oldest symbols that humans have ever used. Andrea: Right. Elizabeth: Have you read any Dan Brown? Andrea: I have not, no. Elizabeth: Oh, you haven't read The Da Vinci Code? Andrea: My dad really liked the Da Vinci Code, but I just never got around to it. So I always thought of it kind of as like my dad's books. Elizabeth: Sure. You know, I know my dad has read every single Dan Brown book. I've read Angels and Demons. The Da Vinci Code I read this a long time ago when they were first big and popular. And then, about a year ago I read Origin and then a week and a half ago I read The Lost Symbol. Elizabeth: This main character Robert Langdon is a symbologist, like a professor of symbology. As you're reading these books there's a lot of history for The Lost Symbol, it takes place in Washington, DC. It's all about the Free Masons and how so many of our founding fathers were involved in Free Masonry. There are all these Free Masonry symbols everywhere in Washington DC. With each of these interesting things that Robert Langdon would say. I didn't have an opportunity to pull out my phone and look it up. Which is probably a good thing 'cause then it would've taken me a lot longer to read that book. There are a lot of really interesting things that I probably would have if I had, had the option to pull out my phone. Anyway, what I'm getting at here is going back to the circle. Elizabeth: So it all kind of boils down to one of the most basic and oldest symbols. So a circumpunct, also called a circled dot. So a circle with a dot at its center. And according to Dan Brown, it's one of the many solar symbols used to represent the sun. And so then I think also like the ancient Egyptian God Ra, was the god of the sun. Elizabeth: So it was like the symbol that represented the God Ra. Anyway, so you know, all that to say that like the circle is absolutely like one of the oldest symbols. And sort of how it's been used throughout all of history. The perfect nature of it, the simplicity of it, representing continuity, and so when you say that like the hero's journey and Frodo leaves and goes out and has this adventure and then he comes back to the beginning you know, the sort of circular nature of that, in addition to like the ring being a circle. Elizabeth: I mean I think you're right, I don't think it's coincidental. It's such a basic and fundamental symbol used throughout all of human history that it's a nice thing to use as a literary device. Andrea: Unfortunately, I don't think there's any direct connection between Dan Brown and Tolkien. Elizabeth: Oh. No, there's not supposed to be any fantasy to Dan Brown. Andrea: No. Elizabeth: The whole point is that he's trying to make something that could be real. And there are aspects of it that are very real. Andrea: They're both good storytellers. We've got that connection. Elizabeth: Yeah, anyway, it was the circumpunct. It was the circle. I was like, oh my God. I just read a Dan Brown book that used that. Andrea: Yes. Andrea: I went to a release event for Brimstone by Callie Hart, and she mentioned that she was influenced by Tolkien and his world building. And I feel like you can see that come through in the naming of her places within the book, like they have a Middle-earth flair. One of the towns is called Ammontraieth. That feels very Lord of the Rings-esque. And because I had continually heard, oh, he's like, influenced so many authors, was one of the things that made me feel like I should finally read Lord of the Rings, besides Elizabeth telling me I should. I couldn't ignore the calling anymore. Andrea: I had to finally read it. Elizabeth: Arguably your own hero's journey. There was a long time where there was a refusal of the call to read Lord of the Rings. Andrea: Yes. Nice. Elizabeth: Mm-hmm. Andrea: And now I am a conqueror of both worlds, right? Elizabeth: A master of two worlds. Andrea: Master of two worlds. Elizabeth: You've crossed the return threshold… Andrea: Yes. Elizabeth: And now you're a master of two worlds. Elizabeth: No, going back to the naming stuff, I guess maybe I feel a little conflicted here about the naming stuff. That's because sometimes in some of the more recent books, the newer books, it starts to feel a bit like tired or old almost. So the one that immediately pops into my head about that is a book that we read last year for our moon theme, When the Moon Hatched by Sarah A. Parker. That was the one that had a pronunciation guide in the front. Andrea: Yes. Elizabeth: I believe. Andrea: Yes. Elizabeth: I don't like when there has to be a pronunciation guide. Andrea: I think maybe you're getting caught up on the idea that it has to be there. it's nice that it's there, right? Elizabeth: Just name things that doesn't require to print a pronunciation guide. Just pick names that people can pronounce. Andrea: Hold on. Just wanna stick with this for a second, because you could think that something is easy for you to pronounce, but it might not be easy for everyone. So maybe to the author these are like very basic names, but she doesn't wanna hear everybody say it the wrong way, you know? Andrea: So she's doing it as a service to the readers to have a pronunciation guide. You don't have to read the pronunciation guide, but if you do at least you'll be pronouncing it correctly in your head. Right? Elizabeth: Yeah. I mean, yes for, people who are speaking other languages or if you're trying to read it in English and English is not your first language then yes. But what I'm really trying to say here, what I'm really trying to get at is that okay if a lot of this is based off Tolkien and Tolkien was English and a professor of philology, professor of languages, had some familiarity with the various Celtic languages, like Welsh and Scots and Irish and all of the other various Celtic languages. Elizabeth: Having in Ireland, and I'm gonna be very clear here that I do not speak Irish. I know a few words, but not much. But it seems like oftentimes the pronunciation is similar to the pronunciation of a language like Irish. And for those who do not speak Irish is very frequently mispronounced because it is not phonetic. The pronunciation of Irish is not necessarily phonetic. Elizabeth: And this I can say with experience because I was part of an Irish choir, and we were singing a song in Irish. And so I had to actually learn how to properly pronounce the words that were in this song. It was hard. It was really hard and so then to hear the Irish speakers around me, who then just say like, it's okay, it's, or no, you're doing really good. Like, oh no, that was really good. And then for people to say like, yeah, it's hard 'cause it's not phonetic. You know, like you can see like an m followed by an H that actually makes a V sound, but then sometimes a B followed by an H also makes a V sound. Elizabeth: But sometimes it makes this kind of silent ish sound so there's not, for the outside person, the outside learner, there's not necessarily a lot of rhyme or reason. But then it has this sense of mystery. And I think Irish culture is really romanticized, like Celtic and Druid culture is really romanticized by especially Americans. And so, Tolkien English and being a professor of languages like I get it, there's more of an understanding from my own sense that sure, okay, so he's using these sorts of words and these sorts of names, but then when other people are doing it, I just can't help asking like, “Do these people know what they're writing?” Like, I don't think the average person has quite the depth of knowledge that Tolkien did about those languages, and so then it almost feels like, I don't know, like some amount of cultural appropriation or something. Andrea: Lord of the Rings has been translated into so many different languages. Tolkien created a language guide after the Dutch and Swedish translations came out. He was so upset with how they translated some of it, that he came out with a guide for how to translate things, especially names because he based certain names like Rivendell is near a river. Andrea: He wanted to maintain some of that meaning in the translation of certain words. He really did not want the word “hobbit” to be translated. It should be hobbit in any language basically. So yeah, I think Tolkien had a uniquely advanced awareness of languages. Andrea: So when other people try to mimic his style it could just be that they're trying to pay homage to his writing and the world of Middle-earth, but it's really hard to do it justice. And maybe that's where some of your ick is coming from because he did it really well. Andrea: But not everybody can. Elizabeth: No, it's this sense of ick. It's exactly what it is. And he did it very intentionally, and he did it with this depth of knowledge of what he was writing and the background to these names, cultural language, connotations, and hidden meanings and pronunciation in terms of how other words in that language are pronounced, and so then when people in usually more modern fantasy writers, most of them are not professors of language. Andrea: Right. That's probably very rare. Elizabeth: So then, for them to be using these sorts of names with these kind of weird pronunciations, I just can't help, like, "do you know what you're writing? Is that actually how that would be pronounced based on what you're trying to go for?” And once again, going back to this idea of like it's, 'cause it seems like often these fantasy names strike me, as someone who does not speak Irish, but who lived in Ireland, like strike me as trying to use sort of like Irish or Celtic language style of pronunciation and once again, going back to the Celtic culture like Druids, they are often completely, entirely like romanticized by especially Americans. Andrea: Well, it's the highest form of flattery in a sense. It's people that love the books. Andrea: They were inspired and they're trying. It's a hard target to hit. It's hard to reach that level of Tolkien if that's what you're aiming to achieve. But I think people should still try, 'cause I like reading those kinds of books. So… Elizabeth: Yeah. Andrea: It doesn't have to be perfect. Elizabeth: I just wish that they would name them differently. Andrea: Well, speaking of naming of things, I think for a long time, I had not read Lord of the Rings, but I had read Christopher Paolini's books about Eragon. Eragon rode a dragon. Elizabeth: Oh no — I know. Andrea: And I read those back in middle school. Elizabeth: Yeah, dragons. Andrea: Yeah, and so I think that's why it was so hard for me to pronounce Aragorn, ’cause I got it mixed up in my head with Eragon. Andrea: I think Christopher Paolini was a fan of Tolkien as well. You can see the hero's journey take place in those books as well. I wanna go back and read those because those are some of the first dragon books I really liked in the fantasy world. Elizabeth: How many are there? Elizabeth: Like I know I’ve definitely read the first one. I think I've read the second one, was that Eldest? Andrea: So I think there are five, five books. Elizabeth: And that's the whole series, it's done? Andrea: Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Andrea: In 2023, he released Murtaugh. The first book Eragon was published in 2002. Elizabeth: I remember when those books first came out it was quite exciting, 'cause he lives in Montana. And I think the mountains and valleys of Montana helped inspire him. Andrea: That’s really cool. Elizabeth: Yeah. Andrea: According to Goodreads, there's five books. There is a 4.5, published, in between books four and five. Elizabeth: Do you own those books? Andrea: I currently only have one of them. Andrea: And I have not read Murtagh. So maybe I'll like go on a dragon binge and reread the whole series, 'cause it might be fun to revisit that. You know, kind of those childhood memories. Elizabeth: So when you're talking about that Christopher Paolini book, the fifth one, it might be pronounced Murtagh. Andrea: Instead of Murtagh, I'm saying it wrong. Elizabeth: Yeah. Andrea: Well I haven’t read it. Elizabeth: Fair enough. I don't know if it has a pronunciation guide at the beginning, but going back to Outlander one of the main characters is in Outlander. His name is Murtagh, and it's spelled the same way, M-U-R-T-A-G-H. Andrea: Then you're right. Andrea: So the one copy of the book I have is Eldest. It's book two of the series. And at the back of the book, it has a complete list of people and creatures, places and things, but it's not a pronunciation guide it just explains what things are. Andrea: For example, “Alana- elf child in Ellesmera". So it's not a pronunciation guide, but an explanation of what the different places and people and things are. Elizabeth: Well, maybe the only way is, you have to listen to the audio book or something to… Andrea: Yeah. Elizabeth: Hear out how that would be pronounced. But once again, this just goes back to my previous point of using these Celtic, Scottish, Irish, Welsh names. And they're pronounced differently than we think they are. As an American who speaks English as my first language to be reading these things, they can be hard to decipher how they're supposed to be pronounced. Andrea: Yeah. Elizabeth: But it's maybe it is maybe pronounced Murtagh. Andrea: Okay. You’re probably right. Andrea: The other thing that we were gonna talk about in this episode was how Tolkien influenced other authors, even outside of the genre of fantasy. So our next trilogy pick is going to be drum roll… Elizabeth: Is The Foundation series by Isaac Asimov. And before anybody out there says, but wait, it's not a trilogy. It did start as a trilogy actually. Andrea: So it was Foundation, then Foundation and Empire, and then Second Foundation. Elizabeth: Yes. Elizabeth: I think the others, as far as I know at this point, the others are sort of like prequels and sequels. But originally when he first started writing them, it was intended to just be a trilogy. So that's what we're reading. Andrea: Yeah, so Isaac Asimov was prolific within science fiction and he said that he read Tolkien. And so I thought that was really cool that they were contemporaries. Andrea: Foundation was published in 1951. Elizabeth: Yeah. Andrea: So Foundation came out before Lord of the Rings. But… Elizabeth: The Hobbit came out 1937. So that would've been readable by Isaac Asimov. But yeah, something different. We read High Fantasy for the first trilogy and second trilogy is going to be high science fiction? Is that a thing? Andrea: I think it's just kind of classic sci-fi. Elizabeth: Yeah. Cool. Andrea: I have not read these. This is a first for you too? You're not rereading these right? Elizabeth: Nope, nope. This is a first. The Foundation series has been on my TBR list for a long time. Knowing that they are classics and it's fun to read the classics. Andrea: So from Middle-earth to the far reaches of the galaxy, these stories remind us how one author's imagination can ripple across time and genres. Elizabeth: Unfortunately, that concludes this week's episode. We've reached the end of another cosmic journey on Galaxies and Goddesses. Andrea: Don't worry, the adventure never really ends. There are always more stories to explore and more bookish tangents for us to go on. Elizabeth: But hey, that's part of the fun. If you love today's episode, subscribe, leave a review, and share the magic. Andrea: Stay tuned for our next episode as we share our adventures from exploring independent bookstores together on Independent Bookstore Day. Elizabeth: And in the meantime, keep your mind fueled by the magic of stories. Andrea: And never stop chasing the worlds waiting for you between the pages. Thanks everyone.