Transcript

#69 Tamara · Heavyweight

0:15
Speaker 1: Pushkin. Jackie?
0:26
Speaker 2: How can you respond to my birthday wishes?
0:29
Speaker 1: I'm just looking at my text. Okay, that's right. You
0:35
Speaker 1: sent me a text on.
0:36
Speaker 3: I don't know who doesn't say thank you. I find
0:38
Speaker 3: that just weird.
0:38
Speaker 2: Or just send like a little heart icon.
0:41
Speaker 4: Like who says nothing?
0:43
Speaker 5: It's just weird, John.
0:44
Speaker 1: Well, I was very busy partying. No, you weren't. No,
0:48
Speaker 1: you weren't. What do you mean, no, I wasn't?
0:49
Speaker 5: No, I know you weren't.
0:51
Speaker 1: How do you know?
0:51
Speaker 3: You hate your birthday.
0:52
Speaker 6: You hate partying.
0:54
Speaker 2: You're depressed.
0:55
Speaker 3: That's why.
0:56
Speaker 1: Okay, first of all, I was partying.
0:59
Speaker 3: Really?
0:59
Speaker 1: Yes, I was.
1:00
Speaker 6: Yeah.
1:00
Speaker 1: Look, just accept I was partying.
1:02
Speaker 6: Wow.
1:11
Speaker 1: From Pushkin Industries, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight.
1:17
Speaker 1: Today's episode, Tamra. Right after the break. Some of the
1:34
Speaker 1: names in this story have been swapped out for initials. Also,
1:38
Speaker 1: a warning that this episode includes explicit depictions of suicide.
1:43
Speaker 1: Take care when listening. Tamara, so are you comfortable there?
1:47
Speaker 1: Do you have a glass of drinking water by your side?
1:49
Speaker 2: I have like half a bottle of Gatorade, so just
1:53
Speaker 2: in case this gets really strenuous, I've got my sports drink.
1:56
Speaker 1: What flavor is this Gatorade?
1:58
Speaker 2: It's lemon-lime, but it's diluted, and that's in case my
2:02
Speaker 2: son tries to drink it, he won't want it.
2:05
Speaker 1: Tamara's son is 10 years old. That's the same age
2:09
Speaker 1: Tamara was when her family joined an evangelical church. She
2:13
Speaker 1: remembers how the whole family all went down to the
2:15
Speaker 1: bay to get baptized in the water and accept Jesus
2:19
Speaker 1: into their hearts. When it came time for high school,
2:22
Speaker 1: Tamara's parents sent her to a Christian boarding school. And
2:26
Speaker 1: this is where she met Bea.
2:28
Speaker 2: She was just somebody who's kind of like sparkly. I
2:32
Speaker 2: kind of felt like she was the anti-me person. Like,
2:35
Speaker 2: I just felt kind of nerdy and a little bit
2:38
Speaker 2: too shy with people. And so I actually had plans
2:41
Speaker 2: to room with somebody else, but I liked Bea so
2:45
Speaker 2: much that at the last minute I changed my mind
2:48
Speaker 2: so Bea and I could room together junior year.
2:50
Speaker 1: I'm from Canada, and I don't—so there's freshman year?
2:54
Speaker 2: Freshman, sophomore, junior, senior.
2:57
Speaker 1: You stay three years in school, and then you're still
3:00
Speaker 1: a junior.
3:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, your third year as a junior.
3:03
Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden you make the leap
3:04
Speaker 1: to senior.
3:05
Speaker 3: Yeah.
3:07
Speaker 1: I don't get it. Okay, hang on a second. Wouldn't
3:09
Speaker 1: it make more sense to go from freshman to junior?
3:13
Speaker 1: At any rate, during grade 11, Tamara and Bea progressed
3:17
Speaker 1: from friends to roommates. This meant spending a lot more
3:21
Speaker 1: time together.
3:22
Speaker 2: I mean, your roommate's like your person. Bea was like
3:26
Speaker 2: my spouse.
3:27
Speaker 1: And their dorm room became a social hub for all
3:29
Speaker 1: their friends.
3:31
Speaker 2: We was probably friends with more of like the cooler,
3:34
Speaker 2: popular kids. But I think between the two of us,
3:37
Speaker 2: we probably knew everyone in the school. You know, I
3:40
Speaker 2: was kind of one of the smart kids.
3:42
Speaker 1: You were one of the smart kids?
3:44
Speaker 2: Yeah.
3:44
Speaker 1: Sorry, I didn't mean to say that incredulously. I was just,
3:47
Speaker 1: I was talking over you.
3:48
Speaker 2: I know, hard to believe, Jonathan.
3:50
Speaker 1: No, no, no, it's not hard to believe at all.
3:52
Speaker 1: Once Tamara had put aside her smart people books and
3:55
Speaker 1: all their friends had left for the night, it was
3:58
Speaker 1: just the two of them. That's when Tamara and Bea
4:00
Speaker 1: would lounge on their beds, listening to music and talking.
4:04
Speaker 1: Those were always the best times of all. It was
4:07
Speaker 1: a really fun year. And then came senior year of
4:11
Speaker 1: high school.
4:12
Speaker 2: You know, it should have been like the highlight of
4:15
Speaker 2: our lives. But it was during that fall that she
4:20
Speaker 2: started to tell me some stuff about when she was
4:24
Speaker 2: a kid. And I don't know if it was stuff
4:27
Speaker 2: she had ever thought about before.
4:29
Speaker 1: Tamara doesn't want to disclose the details, but broadly, Bea
4:33
Speaker 1: began sharing painful, traumatic memories.
4:36
Speaker 2: And I was the only one that she was talking
4:40
Speaker 2: about it with. You know, I didn't know what to say.
4:43
Speaker 2: And I said, I know, which is like the worst
4:48
Speaker 2: thing to say because I didn't know. But I kind
4:51
Speaker 2: of meant like, I know that this is hard for you.
4:56
Speaker 2: Or like, I know this now that you've told me,
4:59
Speaker 2: like I'm hearing you.
5:01
Speaker 1: Tamara could see that Bea was struggling, but Tamara wasn't
5:04
Speaker 1: sure who to turn to for counsel. At one point,
5:08
Speaker 1: she tried enlisting a dorm parent.
5:10
Speaker 2: I knocked on her door and I said, I'm not
5:13
Speaker 2: sure Bea's okay. And she was like, what do you mean?
5:16
Speaker 2: And I was like, I'm just, I'm not sure Bea's okay.
5:22
Speaker 2: And she was like, okay, thanks. And like, that was it.
5:26
Speaker 2: And you know who the counselor was, like the guidance counselor?
5:30
Speaker 2: It was this 65-year-old man who had been a missionary
5:34
Speaker 2: in like the 60s. And if you went to his office,
5:38
Speaker 2: all he would do was talk about like the big
5:40
Speaker 2: game he had hunted with the Maasai in Kenya. And
5:44
Speaker 2: he would like show you his spears and the heads
5:47
Speaker 2: of the antelope. Like he was completely unqualified to deal
5:52
Speaker 2: with like anybody's emotional problems.
5:59
Speaker 1: Then, one day in November, something happened that ratcheted up
6:03
Speaker 1: Tamara's concerns even more. Bea and Tamara were hanging out
6:07
Speaker 1: in the dorm with their friend Christy. The three of
6:10
Speaker 1: them were flipping through a pile of photographs.
6:13
Speaker 2: Bea saw a picture of herself. It was a picture
6:16
Speaker 2: of her looking at the camera, smiling. And she screamed and, like,
6:21
Speaker 2: dropped the picture. And we were like, oh, my God. Like,
6:25
Speaker 2: what is it? And she showed us the photo. And
6:30
Speaker 2: like above her head in the background, there was like
6:32
Speaker 2: a weird little white mark. You know, it could have
6:34
Speaker 2: been like a flash from a camera, but she was
6:37
Speaker 2: like screaming and pointing at it. And then a couple
6:47
Speaker 2: hours later, Bea and I were in our room studying.
6:52
Speaker 2: Bea turned around and she looked up at the like
6:55
Speaker 2: the ceiling corner and she screamed again. And she said,
7:00
Speaker 2: there it is. And she, like, pointed at the cinder
7:04
Speaker 2: block wall. And there was nothing there. But she said,
7:09
Speaker 2: there it is. And, like, screaming.
7:13
Speaker 1: Christy came over from next door to help. But neither
7:16
Speaker 1: she nor Tamara could make sense of B's behavior. Tamara
7:20
Speaker 1: can't remember exactly how they came to the conclusion they did.
7:24
Speaker 1: But somehow, an idea took hold of all three girls.
7:28
Speaker 1: B was being followed by a demon. Eventually, Tamara was
7:36
Speaker 1: able to find a listening ear, a teacher named Mr. L.
7:40
Speaker 1: Not only was Mr. L super friendly, but he was
7:43
Speaker 1: someone B knew well and had a good relationship with.
7:46
Speaker 2: I felt really relieved that, like, finally an adult was helping.
7:53
Speaker 1: But the relief Tamara felt was short-lived. Because when Mr.
7:57
Speaker 1: L heard what had happened, he issued an alarming verdict.
8:01
Speaker 2: He was like, oh, well, obviously you guys are like
8:06
Speaker 2: under attack from Satan. You know, there's things going on
8:10
Speaker 2: in the spirit world. And I wasn't, I wasn't like
8:13
Speaker 2: a super hardcore Christian, but it like really scared the
8:18
Speaker 2: heck out of me. So, like, all of a sudden,
8:20
Speaker 2: I was.
8:21
Speaker 1: All of a sudden, you felt more religious.
8:24
Speaker 2: Yes, because all of a sudden, I was like, there's proof. Like,
8:28
Speaker 2: what are we going to do?
8:30
Speaker 1: So one Friday night, Mr. L had Tamara, Christy, and
8:34
Speaker 1: Bea over to his house.
8:36
Speaker 2: And in his kitchen, he and his wife did this exorcism.
8:46
Speaker 1: After serving the girls' dinner, Mr. and Mrs. L knelt
8:50
Speaker 1: on the kitchen floor. With the overhead lights glaring, Tamara
8:54
Speaker 1: and Christy were told to lay hands on B.
8:57
Speaker 2: In the name of Jesus, Satan be gone. And, like,
9:01
Speaker 2: she started screaming. Like, kind of writhing around and, like,
9:07
Speaker 2: super screaming and, like, making weird voices. You know, it
9:12
Speaker 2: didn't seem like her. This person we were next to,
9:15
Speaker 2: it didn't seem like her. Yeah. And that's when I
9:19
Speaker 2: was like, holy crap. Like, this is for real. This
9:25
Speaker 2: is like, like I'm next to a demon. Terrified, like
9:30
Speaker 2: the most terrified I'd been in my life.
9:34
Speaker 1: Tamara says that at a certain point, the yelling and
9:37
Speaker 1: shaking reached a crescendo. And then it all just stopped. Afterwards,
9:45
Speaker 1: B acted like nothing out of the ordinary had happened.
9:48
Speaker 1: It was like she couldn't remember the exorcism at all.
9:52
Speaker 1: That night, all three girls slept on the L's fold-out couch,
9:56
Speaker 1: B in the middle.
9:57
Speaker 2: And I was just like laying there with my eyes
10:00
Speaker 2: wide open, like, who is this next to me? I
10:04
Speaker 2: couldn't fall asleep. And then in the morning, it was like, okay,
10:09
Speaker 2: like they gave us breakfast and like, guys, just, you know,
10:13
Speaker 2: like keep praying and stay strong in Christ. And like,
10:20
Speaker 2: we went back to our room.
10:28
Speaker 1: And then did you try to talk to her or?
10:30
Speaker 2: No, because like I didn't know like is this, is
10:34
Speaker 2: this her? Like that issue there became like the whole issue.
10:42
Speaker 1: In every interaction, Tamara wondered, am I actually talking to Bea?
10:47
Speaker 2: Or am I dealing with like this demon? Who is this?
10:53
Speaker 2: Who am I talking to right now? And it ruined
10:57
Speaker 2: our friendship. Like we spent the rest of the year
11:07
Speaker 2: basically trying to avoid each other. But it's like, it's
11:10
Speaker 2: hard to avoid each other when you're roommates. Like we
11:13
Speaker 2: didn't have these lay around on our beds and just
11:16
Speaker 2: like shoot the shit kind of things anymore. It was,
11:19
Speaker 2: I don't know if you've ever been like living with a.
11:27
Speaker 7: Yeah.
11:27
Speaker 2: It's really awkward. You know, just like, hi.
11:30
Speaker 1: How are you? How was class? Like, oh, great.
11:34
Speaker 2: Uh-huh.
11:36
Speaker 1: And that's the way you wrote out the year.
11:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I just could not wait to graduate. I
11:41
Speaker 2: could not wait to go home.
11:44
Speaker 1: When she finally did return home, Tamara was greeted by
11:47
Speaker 1: yet another crisis, one with eerie echoes of the crisis
11:51
Speaker 1: she'd left behind. Over the past couple years, Tamara's father
11:55
Speaker 1: had become increasingly devout. even founding his own church and
11:59
Speaker 1: hiring his own pastor. And recently, things had taken a
12:03
Speaker 1: disturbing turn. Her father had begun having paranoid religious delusions.
12:09
Speaker 1: He believed he was being tormented by Satan. Later that summer,
12:14
Speaker 1: only weeks after her graduation, he took his own life.
12:18
Speaker 2: After my father died, I had to come to this
12:21
Speaker 2: reckoning on my own with, like, Christianity and God. Because...
12:27
Speaker 2: he'd been a good Christian, but he'd suffered. Like, he
12:31
Speaker 2: told my mom that, like, Satan had come and taken
12:35
Speaker 2: him to hell and had shown him, like, you've lived
12:37
Speaker 2: a terrible life, and this is what's going to happen
12:39
Speaker 2: to you after you died. And so, like, when my
12:42
Speaker 2: father killed himself, like, he killed himself thinking he was
12:44
Speaker 2: going to go to hell. Like, that's so terrible. And
12:51
Speaker 2: I was just like, you know what? Like, that instant
12:53
Speaker 2: I found out my father died, I was like, I
12:56
Speaker 2: do not believe in God. And it was so freeing
13:01
Speaker 2: because I was like, and if I don't believe in God,
13:03
Speaker 2: then I don't have to believe in demons. And I
13:06
Speaker 2: don't believe in Satan. And I don't believe that there's
13:09
Speaker 2: this crazy spiritual other world. And then I was kind
13:13
Speaker 2: of like, well, what does this mean about everything that
13:16
Speaker 2: happened with Bea? And I was like, you know what?
13:19
Speaker 2: I think Bea, I think it was like psychological. I
13:22
Speaker 2: think she was really vulnerable. And struggling with a lot
13:27
Speaker 2: of things. And I don't think she was possessed. And
13:32
Speaker 2: I don't think Satan was attacking us. And Bea suffered.
13:38
Speaker 1: Now, when Tamara thinks back on Bea's suffering, she no
13:42
Speaker 1: longer blames Satan. Instead, she blames herself.
13:47
Speaker 2: Like it was such a betrayal from me to be
13:51
Speaker 2: the one who knew all this about her. and then
13:55
Speaker 2: turned around and said, like, you're so damaged that, like,
14:00
Speaker 2: Satan is after you. Like, someone told her she was possessed. Like,
14:06
Speaker 2: that's so mean. And, like, how terrible for the way
14:10
Speaker 2: I treated her for the rest of that year. Like,
14:14
Speaker 2: how terrible for her to have to live with somebody
14:16
Speaker 2: who's kind of always looking at her askance.
14:22
Speaker 1: I can't help feeling like Tamara is being hard on herself.
14:25
Speaker 1: I don't doubt that her guilt is real, but I
14:28
Speaker 1: just don't think the self-blame is warranted. Can I just
14:31
Speaker 1: say here, like, A, you were a kid, and B,
14:36
Speaker 1: you actually did, like, which is kind of remarkable, you
14:39
Speaker 1: actually did seek help.
14:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess. I mean, I should have been the
14:48
Speaker 2: one to be like, let's not do this. And like,
14:55
Speaker 2: I want her to forgive me. I want her to
14:59
Speaker 2: know I'm sorry. You know, the other night I got
15:07
Speaker 2: out my yearbooks and actually have them here with me.
15:11
Speaker 1: Tamara flips open the book from junior year, the year
15:14
Speaker 1: she and Bea first became roommates.
15:17
Speaker 2: When you open the front cover of the yearbook, like
15:19
Speaker 2: the best real estate section in the yearbook is that
15:22
Speaker 2: page across from the front cover where you're leaning on
15:25
Speaker 2: all the pages of the rest of the yearbook. So
15:27
Speaker 2: it's like kind of soft.
15:29
Speaker 1: There, scrawled in Tamara's teenage handwriting, it reads, reserved for Bea.
15:35
Speaker 1: The words are underlined.
15:36
Speaker 2: Like there's no other spots in the yearbook reserved for anybody.
15:39
Speaker 2: So it says, dearest Tee. I can't explain how much
15:43
Speaker 2: you mean to me in words, so just add up
15:45
Speaker 2: all the stars in the sky and all the colors
15:47
Speaker 2: in the sunset, and that's how much I love you.
15:50
Speaker 2: You're not the introverted geek I was anticipating. We had
15:54
Speaker 2: our memories in our little room. Those were fun. Thanks
15:57
Speaker 2: for believing in me when I didn't. Thanks for snuggling
16:00
Speaker 2: with me in snuffs, which was her little stuffed animal,
16:03
Speaker 2: especially during thunderstorms. I'm not going to write down all
16:07
Speaker 2: our memories because you remember everything. I love you and
16:11
Speaker 2: see you this summer. Work on those leg muscles. And
16:15
Speaker 2: then in our senior yearbook, it's the same thing. You
16:20
Speaker 2: open the front cover and that prime real estate spot.
16:25
Speaker 1: Once again, underlined at the top of the page, reserved
16:29
Speaker 1: for B.
16:30
Speaker 2: And then there's just a blank page underneath it.
16:39
Speaker 1: Tamara's now in her mid-40s. She hasn't seen bees since
16:42
Speaker 1: she was 18. After so much time, the task of
16:46
Speaker 1: reconnecting feels insurmountable, and so she's hoping I might help.
16:51
Speaker 2: This has seemed just impossible for me to do.
16:58
Speaker 1: We'll check in and we'll figure out some kind of strategy.
17:01
Speaker 2: Sounds good.
17:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I hope you feel okay. I hope you can, like,
17:03
Speaker 1: take a breather and take a walk or something.
17:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to, like, maybe go buy, like, a
17:08
Speaker 2: pure Gatorade and just drink the whole thing.
17:10
Speaker 1: There you go. I don't think Gatorade is sponsoring this episode.
17:21
Speaker 1: But if they are, you'll hear all about it. Or
17:26
Speaker 1: some equally awesome beverage, phone plan, or men's grooming product.
17:31
Speaker 1: during these heartfelt words from our sponsors. The logical place
17:41
Speaker 1: to start the search for any long-lost classmate is Facebook.
17:45
Speaker 1: But until now, Tamara's never been able to bring herself
17:48
Speaker 1: to type in Bea's name. When she does, though, she
17:51
Speaker 1: finds Bea easily. And as best as she can tell,
17:55
Speaker 1: Bea seems happy.
17:56
Speaker 2: She's been married to the same guy. She's too beautiful.
18:00
Speaker 6: Blonde.
18:01
Speaker 2: Daughters who looked just like her. And I was like, wow, like,
18:08
Speaker 2: that's amazing.
18:09
Speaker 1: Did it relieve you?
18:11
Speaker 5: Yeah.
18:13
Speaker 2: Because I'd always worried, like, is she okay? Like, did
18:17
Speaker 2: we damage her? And the funny thing is, like, my
18:20
Speaker 2: life didn't even turn out that great. And I was, like,
18:23
Speaker 2: so superior at the time. Like, I'm not the one
18:26
Speaker 2: who was attacked by Satan. And now, like, I'm the
18:31
Speaker 2: one with, like, kind of the crappy life. You know,
18:35
Speaker 2: I'm divorced. Like, I'm a single mom. I don't have, like,
18:39
Speaker 2: an awesome career. My kid is a huge pain in
18:43
Speaker 2: the neck.
18:44
Speaker 1: I love him.
18:46
Speaker 3: Yeah.
18:48
Speaker 1: Now that Tamara's found Bea, she sends her a message.
18:51
Speaker 1: In it, she explains how she's been regretting their senior
18:54
Speaker 1: year for almost 30 years. After a week without a response,
18:59
Speaker 1: Tamara follows up. And this time, Bea answers, saying it's
19:03
Speaker 1: nice to hear from her and that they should get
19:05
Speaker 1: coffee sometime. Tamara explains that she lives out of state,
19:09
Speaker 1: but maybe they can talk on the phone about senior year.
19:13
Speaker 1: But at the mention of senior year, Bea stops responding.
19:17
Speaker 1: Over the coming months, their exchanges follow this same pattern.
19:21
Speaker 1: Tamara asks to talk, and Bea is willing, until Tamara
19:25
Speaker 1: makes mention of senior year. That's when Bea goes quiet.
19:33
Speaker 1: In the ensuing silence, Tamara finds herself thinking about the
19:37
Speaker 1: other girl who witnessed the exorcism with her, the third
19:40
Speaker 1: girl on the fold-out bed that night, Christy.
19:44
Speaker 2: Because I was like, you know, the only other person
19:46
Speaker 2: who went through this is Christy.
19:49
Speaker 1: In her senior yearbook, Tamara found a message from Christy, too.
19:53
Speaker 1: In it, Christy makes oblique reference to all that she
19:56
Speaker 1: and Tamara had gone through.
19:59
Speaker 2: She wrote, This is kind of difficult for me to
20:02
Speaker 2: sign because of obvious reasons. I cannot say to you
20:05
Speaker 2: the usual, I've had a lot of fun being your friend.
20:08
Speaker 2: I think I feel like I've disappointed you in some way.
20:11
Speaker 2: If I have, I'm sorry. I'm human, and I've made
20:14
Speaker 2: many mistakes. We were allowed to witness a world which
20:18
Speaker 2: was not of our own, but it made our world
20:21
Speaker 2: somehow more real. I think you understand all that I'm
20:24
Speaker 2: trying to say without even me having to say it.
20:26
Speaker 2: You've helped me bring about the single most important year
20:29
Speaker 2: of my life. And if I never forget anyone, it
20:32
Speaker 2: will be you that I do not forget. Remember that
20:35
Speaker 2: to whom much is given, much is expected. Love, Christy.
20:41
Speaker 1: Wow. What do you think she was referring to when
20:45
Speaker 1: she says that she hopes that she didn't disappoint you?
20:50
Speaker 2: I think she meant that, like, I think she just
20:53
Speaker 2: wanted to be like a regular teenager again.
20:57
Speaker 1: Christy's presence in Tamara's life dwindled, and when high school ended,
21:01
Speaker 1: they completely lost touch. Now, though, rereading the inscription as
21:05
Speaker 1: an adult, Tamara wonders, does Christy still carry Gil the
21:10
Speaker 1: way she does? So Tamara looks her up.
21:14
Speaker 2: And I found an obituary. She's dead. She died last year.
21:28
Speaker 1: Hoping to find out what had happened, Temmer reached out
21:31
Speaker 1: to a well-connected old classmate. But the classmate wasn't even
21:34
Speaker 1: aware that Christy had died. She promised to ask around, though,
21:38
Speaker 1: and try to find out more information.
21:41
Speaker 2: She, like, asked everybody on her Facebook group, including people
21:44
Speaker 2: who were really close friends with Christy. And nobody knew. Like,
21:48
Speaker 2: Christy's been dead for a year, and the first person
21:50
Speaker 2: who knew was me.
21:52
Speaker 1: Tamara saw that a neighbor of Christy's left a comment
21:55
Speaker 1: on the online obituary, so she messaged him. The neighbor
21:59
Speaker 1: told her that Christy had overdosed, that for years she
22:02
Speaker 1: struggled with alcohol and prescription drugs. He said that Christy
22:07
Speaker 1: was battling demons.
22:17
Speaker 2: Hello? Hello?
22:17
Speaker 1: Tamara?
22:18
Speaker 6: Hi, happy new year.
22:19
Speaker 2: How are you?
22:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, happy new year to you. I'm good. The new
22:22
Speaker 1: year is 2020, two years since Tamara and I first spoke.
22:26
Speaker 1: In the interim, there have been periodic messages to Bea
22:30
Speaker 1: and even an old-fashioned letter explaining how much Tamara wants
22:33
Speaker 1: to talk about senior year. But Bea never responded. In
22:38
Speaker 1: spite of that, Bea did friend Tamara on Facebook, where
22:41
Speaker 1: they keep things light.
22:43
Speaker 5: You know, we've had little Facebook comments like, Looks like
22:47
Speaker 5: a fun trip.
22:48
Speaker 6: Right.
22:48
Speaker 5: If I, like, post pictures of, like, my broken Christmas
22:52
Speaker 5: tree or, you know, like, nothing great, she'll be.
22:55
Speaker 1: Like, that's great.
22:58
Speaker 5: Or smiley face or thumbs up.
23:02
Speaker 1: Emojis aren't the deepest of languages. But from my perspective,
23:06
Speaker 1: Bea seems fine with Tamara. Even though she might not
23:09
Speaker 1: want to rehash the past, she doesn't seem to harbor
23:11
Speaker 1: any ill will. Tamara, though, doesn't see it that way.
23:16
Speaker 1: And she still feels bad. So bad that she's come
23:19
Speaker 1: to a decision to stop trying to reach B.
23:23
Speaker 5: Who am I to, like, revisit this miserable time in
23:26
Speaker 5: your life so that I can feel less bad? Maybe
23:31
Speaker 5: I should feel guilty about it.
23:32
Speaker 7: Like, maybe we should feel guilty about bad.
23:35
Speaker 6: Things we do.
23:37
Speaker 1: As always, I tell Tamara she's being hard on herself.
23:41
Speaker 1: And Tamara says, yes, she knows, but without seeming to
23:44
Speaker 1: believe it.
23:52
Speaker 5: You know, when you want to rewind your life to, like,
23:55
Speaker 5: the spot where you would start doing better.
23:58
Speaker 2: Like, that's the point. Like, senior year.
24:02
Speaker 5: Like, I want to rewind it to that point and
24:04
Speaker 5: be like, can I restart right here?
24:09
Speaker 2: Like, I just really veered.
24:10
Speaker 5: Off the path. I feel like that was one of
24:13
Speaker 5: the first really bad decisions I made.
24:17
Speaker 1: Tamara walks me through all the bad decisions that followed
24:21
Speaker 1: senior year. Decisions for which she faults herself. Like her
24:25
Speaker 1: decision to socially isolate during college. Or her decision to
24:29
Speaker 1: get married and stay married for 15 years, in spite
24:33
Speaker 1: of knowing it was a bad idea from the start.
24:36
Speaker 1: But for Tamara, worst of all are the decisions she
24:39
Speaker 1: made the summer of her father's death. Again, she brings
24:43
Speaker 1: up the story of his suicide. In this telling, she
24:46
Speaker 1: begins with the days leading up to his death. She
24:49
Speaker 1: explains how he'd been sent to the hospital for depression.
24:52
Speaker 1: He was released shortly after she graduated.
24:55
Speaker 5: As soon as he got home, I was like, oh
24:57
Speaker 5: my God, he looks terrible. Like, he does not seem better.
25:02
Speaker 5: And it was like a couple days later, he showed
25:08
Speaker 5: up in the upstairs hallway.
25:11
Speaker 1: Just stood there.
25:12
Speaker 2: And I was like, do you want to go out
25:15
Speaker 2: for yogurt?
25:17
Speaker 5: Which was like also super weird. I would never do
25:19
Speaker 5: anything like that with my dad, but he's just like
25:21
Speaker 5: standing there and.
25:22
Speaker 4: He was like, okay.
25:24
Speaker 2: And we got the yoga and we're sitting in the
25:27
Speaker 2: parking lot and.
25:27
Speaker 5: He's like, well, you know, the coming year is going
25:31
Speaker 5: to be really hard for you. And I just want
25:33
Speaker 5: you to take care of mom and take care of Evan.
25:37
Speaker 4: Who's my younger brother.
25:39
Speaker 5: And like, I knew what he was saying. And I
25:43
Speaker 5: was like, no, like, it's going to be fine. And
25:46
Speaker 5: he was like, I wish I had been a better father.
25:51
Speaker 5: But I was trying to pretend I didn't know what
25:53
Speaker 5: he was saying.
25:53
Speaker 7: I was like, no, it's fine.
25:55
Speaker 2: Like, don't worry about it. But I knew I was like, fuck. Like,
26:03
Speaker 2: this guy's going to do it. Like, he's going to
26:05
Speaker 2: kill himself. That was like Tuesday night.
26:09
Speaker 5: And like, I told my sister.
26:11
Speaker 2: And she's like, I know. I know he's like, I
26:14
Speaker 2: can tell he's.
26:14
Speaker 5: Going to do it. And like we told my mom
26:17
Speaker 5: and she's like, no, like he told me he wouldn't.
26:22
Speaker 1: I don't think he will.
26:23
Speaker 5: And then I was just like, okay, okay. And just
26:28
Speaker 5: like gave up. Just like didn't do anything else. It
26:35
Speaker 5: was a really tense week because every day I was like,
26:38
Speaker 5: is today the day?
26:38
Speaker 2: Is tomorrow the day?
26:42
Speaker 1: Friday was the day.
26:54
Speaker 5: I don't know who was in charge at that point,
26:56
Speaker 5: like my mom, some doctor.
26:59
Speaker 2: Like, they could have done better. Like, we could have
27:03
Speaker 2: done better.
27:05
Speaker 1: Yet again, the adults in Tamara's life had fallen short,
27:09
Speaker 1: and she was left, is still left, shouldering the burden
27:12
Speaker 1: of guilt. Hearing this, I can't help feeling like the
27:16
Speaker 1: situation with her father and the situation with Bea, happening
27:20
Speaker 1: back-to-back as they did, might have become knotted up in
27:23
Speaker 1: Tamara's mind. Talking with Bea might have helped Tamara untangle
27:27
Speaker 1: that knot. But now that that conversation isn't possible, I'm
27:32
Speaker 1: at a loss about how else to help. It feels
27:35
Speaker 1: like we've reached a kind of end. After the break,
27:41
Speaker 1: six years later.
28:12
Speaker 4: Tim?
28:13
Speaker 6: Hi. Wow.
28:16
Speaker 1: How long has it been?
28:17
Speaker 2: A while.
28:20
Speaker 1: It has been quite a while. Six years since Tamara
28:23
Speaker 1: and I last spoke, and eight years since we first spoke.
28:26
Speaker 1: At this point, I hadn't thought we'd ever be speaking again.
28:29
Speaker 1: I was pleasantly surprised to hear from you, but surprised.
28:34
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I had kind of given up on
28:37
Speaker 2: the whole thing, but I started thinking about it again
28:40
Speaker 2: because my son is about to graduate from high school.
28:44
Speaker 1: Tamara's son Sawyer is no longer a Gatorade-swilling child. He's
28:48
Speaker 1: now 18, the same age Tamara was when everything went
28:51
Speaker 1: down with Bea. Sawyer's senior year of high school has
28:55
Speaker 1: brought Tamara back to her own. And with that, Bea
28:59
Speaker 1: is squarely back on her mind. Initially, Tamara had come
29:03
Speaker 1: to me wanting forgiveness from Bea. After seeing that that
29:06
Speaker 1: wasn't going to happen, she tried to make peace on
29:09
Speaker 1: her own. But it hasn't worked. After eight years, she
29:13
Speaker 1: still feels just as guilty. So what to do? B
29:17
Speaker 1: doesn't want to talk, and Christy is dead. I even
29:20
Speaker 1: tried to reach Mr. L, but never heard back. There
29:24
Speaker 1: didn't seem to be anyone left to turn to.
29:26
Speaker 2: And then I was like, you know, that's not, that's
29:30
Speaker 2: not exactly true.
29:36
Speaker 1: There might be one other student who also has memories
29:39
Speaker 1: of what happened that year. After the exorcism, Tamara decided
29:43
Speaker 1: the best course of action for keeping Bea safe was
29:46
Speaker 1: to pray as much as possible. So Tamara and Christy
29:50
Speaker 1: started getting up around 5.30 every morning to pray before class.
29:55
Speaker 1: And there was someone else the two enlisted to pray
29:57
Speaker 1: with them, a boy named John.
30:00
Speaker 2: Like, he was not at the Mr. and Mrs. L's house.
30:04
Speaker 1: Okay.
30:05
Speaker 2: But I'm sure he remembers.
30:09
Speaker 1: John and Tamara became friends when Tamara first showed up
30:12
Speaker 1: at the school in ninth grade. And through the years,
30:15
Speaker 1: they've stayed friends, keeping in touch every so often through email.
30:20
Speaker 1: Unlike Tamara, John has remained religious. John, Tamara says, was
30:24
Speaker 1: quiet and sensitive, the kind of kid who always held
30:28
Speaker 1: the door for everyone. He knew Bea, and in the aftermath,
30:32
Speaker 1: he got up early every morning and prayed with Christy
30:35
Speaker 1: and Tamara. Is there anything that you want to ask
30:38
Speaker 1: him or talk to him about?
30:41
Speaker 2: I mean, I would love it if he was like, oh, yeah,
30:44
Speaker 2: I remember that. And you know what? It just really
30:47
Speaker 2: wasn't that big a deal. Or even if he was like,
30:51
Speaker 2: I don't remember that at all. Like, that would be
30:54
Speaker 2: a great answer for me.
30:57
Speaker 1: Having done this show for about 10 years, I can
30:59
Speaker 1: tell you that wanting to confirm someone's lack of memory
31:03
Speaker 1: has never come up as a mission. In fact, that
31:06
Speaker 1: is the exact opposite of what people usually want. But
31:10
Speaker 1: Tamara is hoping that John's lack of memory might allow
31:13
Speaker 1: her to see that the exorcism in its aftermath just
31:16
Speaker 1: wasn't as big a deal as she thought it was.
31:19
Speaker 1: And that might alleviate her guilt.
31:22
Speaker 2: But also, like, I can face the music from John.
31:26
Speaker 2: I think he'd be very honest. Like, if he's like, oh, no,
31:30
Speaker 2: that was really, like, bad. That was super weird. That
31:33
Speaker 2: even messed me up. Like, I'm not going to love
31:38
Speaker 2: that answer, like, at all. But I can, like, face
31:45
Speaker 2: the music from that if that's what I'm due.
31:49
Speaker 1: It really does sound like what you're looking for is absolution.
31:54
Speaker 2: Yeah. Or, like, maybe it's my, you know, for lack
32:01
Speaker 2: of a better term, like, my cross to bear.
32:09
Speaker 1: I'll get John on the line.
32:12
Speaker 6: Okay.
32:16
Speaker 1: Okay, here we go.
32:22
Speaker 4: Hello?
32:22
Speaker 1: John?
32:24
Speaker 2: Yes?
32:24
Speaker 5: Hi, John.
32:25
Speaker 6: Hey, Tam, how are you?
32:27
Speaker 1: It's good to hear your voice. But before they can
32:29
Speaker 1: even get into it.
32:32
Speaker 1: Tim, I hate to do this.
32:33
Speaker 4: My fire alarm in my house is going off. Can
32:36
Speaker 4: I put you on mute for just a second? I
32:37
Speaker 4: need to run in there and check it.
32:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, hold on, okay? I'm so sorry. Holy cow. I'm
32:48
Speaker 1: so sorry about that. Is everything okay? Yeah, everything's fine.
32:52
Speaker 4: I just had put some boiled eggs in and then
32:55
Speaker 4: realized what time it was, and they've been boiling for
32:57
Speaker 4: the last hour, so.
32:58
Speaker 1: They were smoking.
32:59
Speaker 6: Oh, my God. Yeah.
33:01
Speaker 4: I'm going to put you on mute because there's a
33:03
Speaker 4: fireman at my door.
33:04
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry.
33:05
Speaker 1: Oh, my God. Holy cow. When you stop to think
33:10
Speaker 1: about it, I'm a fireman, too. An emotional fireman extinguishing
33:15
Speaker 1: the fires of the past. So when John returns, I
33:19
Speaker 1: get out my prompting hose and set the nozzle to
33:22
Speaker 1: a low pressure prod. Do you want to explain, Tam,
33:26
Speaker 1: you know, what questions you might have about that time?
33:30
Speaker 8: Yeah, I guess the question would just be like, do
33:36
Speaker 8: you remember anything kind of like weird or out of
33:41
Speaker 8: the ordinary, like some kind of crisis that occurred with
33:45
Speaker 8: me and Christy?
33:49
Speaker 1: Tamara's language is circumspect. She doesn't want to give too
33:52
Speaker 1: much away. And so John is confused. Can you give
33:57
Speaker 1: me a hint?
33:58
Speaker 2: It was like, It was like a Christian crisis.
34:02
Speaker 1: Okay.
34:03
Speaker 2: Suddenly had to, like, form this, like, ad hoc prayer group.
34:09
Speaker 2: You were there.
34:11
Speaker 4: I think you're going to have to give me a
34:13
Speaker 4: little bit more.
34:15
Speaker 1: So Tamara gives him more about Bea and the night
34:18
Speaker 1: of the exorcism. She reminds him of how afterwards she
34:22
Speaker 1: and Christy recruited him into fending off the evil spirits
34:25
Speaker 1: with their small prayer group.
34:27
Speaker 2: We were, like, making time first thing in the morning to, like,
34:31
Speaker 2: go to the gym and pray, like, even before breakfast.
34:35
Speaker 4: Would you have told me everything that was going on?
34:39
Speaker 4: Or would it have just been, like, to come to
34:40
Speaker 4: the gym and pray?
34:41
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, the fact that, like, oh,
34:48
Speaker 2: somebody thinks they're possessed by a demon. The fact that that's, like,
34:52
Speaker 2: not standing out in your mind.
34:55
Speaker 4: If someone, if I had been told... that he was
34:59
Speaker 4: possessed by demons, I definitely would remember that.
35:04
Speaker 1: John says that back then, he prayed with friends quite often.
35:08
Speaker 1: So while he doesn't doubt that he was there praying,
35:10
Speaker 1: he suspects he might not have been told why he
35:13
Speaker 1: was brought in.
35:14
Speaker 4: I can envision not being told because if you told
35:18
Speaker 4: other students that sort of thing, it's going to start
35:21
Speaker 4: all sorts of gossip.
35:24
Speaker 1: Not that I was going to be gossiping or whatever.
35:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right. You're actually right.
35:35
Speaker 1: While Tamara has gotten her best case scenario in that
35:38
Speaker 1: John doesn't remember, it's not for the reason she'd hoped.
35:43
Speaker 1: John doesn't remember because she just never told him. Even
35:46
Speaker 1: after she'd exhausted all the channels she had, Tamara shielded
35:50
Speaker 1: Bea from gossip. And when you're a teenager, that's everything.
36:00
Speaker 1: When Tamara thinks about senior year, her focus is always
36:03
Speaker 1: on Bea. And in various ways and at various points
36:07
Speaker 1: over the course of eight years, I've tried to get
36:09
Speaker 1: Tamara to lay down Bea's suffering and acknowledge her own. Now,
36:14
Speaker 1: I try again, asking her whether her own past, her
36:18
Speaker 1: own pain, has been erased by questions of what Bea deserved,
36:22
Speaker 1: what Bea was owed. Do you feel like it's at
36:24
Speaker 1: the expense of, like, maybe what you feel you deserved
36:27
Speaker 1: or what you were owed?
36:31
Speaker 2: Maybe.
36:33
Speaker 1: Yet again, Tamara offers half-hearted semi-agreement. So I press on.
36:38
Speaker 1: I mean, your year was not a cakewalk. You were
36:42
Speaker 1: going through a lot yourself. And I'm wondering, John, do
36:45
Speaker 1: you know? Tam, did you share with John what you
36:49
Speaker 1: were going through with the death of your father that year? Honestly,
36:53
Speaker 1: I thought.
36:53
Speaker 4: That's what this call was going to be about.
36:57
Speaker 1: Of course John would assume that her father's death was
37:00
Speaker 1: the most pressing issue from that time. With the mention
37:03
Speaker 1: of Tamara's dad, a memory arises for John. He was
37:07
Speaker 1: at home after graduation when the phone rang. His mom answered.
37:11
Speaker 4: She just was on the phone and said it like
37:14
Speaker 4: it was no big deal that Tam's dad had passed away.
37:18
Speaker 4: I don't think she realized that it was going to
37:21
Speaker 4: upset me the way that it did.
37:24
Speaker 1: But it upset me.
37:25
Speaker 4: I'm sure she saw the look of, like, shock and
37:28
Speaker 4: grief on my face because I had known Tam since
37:32
Speaker 4: we were in ninth grade together.
37:33
Speaker 1: And we were friends.
37:42
Speaker 2: I can give you, like, the sequence, John.
37:45
Speaker 1: Okay.
37:45
Speaker 2: So, like, maybe.
37:47
Speaker 1: So once again, Tamara tells the story of her father's death.
37:51
Speaker 1: And this time, in sharing it with John, She reveals
37:54
Speaker 1: details that were hitherto unknown to me.
37:57
Speaker 2: He'd been struggling our whole senior year. And he talked
38:03
Speaker 2: to me more that year than he probably ever had.
38:07
Speaker 2: And sometimes it would be like normal talk. And then
38:10
Speaker 2: sometimes it would just be like weird God stuff. And
38:14
Speaker 2: so when he first became like very, very depressed, my
38:17
Speaker 2: parents turned to the pastor and the church was the
38:20
Speaker 2: first line of treatment.
38:23
Speaker 1: Just like with Bea, that treatment mostly consisted of laying
38:26
Speaker 1: of hands, of more and more prayer. Instead of being
38:29
Speaker 1: treated as delusions, her father's visions of hell were treated
38:33
Speaker 1: as a call to fight Satan. This went on for months,
38:37
Speaker 1: until Tamara's older sister came home from college.
38:40
Speaker 2: And she told my mom, like, you have to take
38:43
Speaker 2: him to a doctor. And then he was put in
38:47
Speaker 2: the hospital. And so it was not long before graduation...
38:53
Speaker 2: My mom called me. I remember being on the phone
38:56
Speaker 2: in the Monroe phone room.
38:59
Speaker 1: The pay phone?
39:01
Speaker 7: Yeah, like apropos of nothing.
39:03
Speaker 2: She's like, oh, your dad's in the hospital. And I said,
39:08
Speaker 2: what kind of hospital? And she said, a psychiatric hospital.
39:13
Speaker 2: And I was like, oh. And then I like hung
39:17
Speaker 2: up the phone and I walked out the front door.
39:20
Speaker 2: I didn't even have any shoes on. just walked out
39:23
Speaker 2: onto the field, and the graduation stage had been set up, John.
39:30
Speaker 1: Up on that graduation stage, there sat John, his legs
39:34
Speaker 1: dangling off the side. Tamara says that he was the
39:37
Speaker 1: first person she saw after getting off the phone. She
39:40
Speaker 1: stopped and told him that her dad was in the hospital.
39:44
Speaker 1: Before he could offer any response, she continued walking. She
39:48
Speaker 1: just wanted him to know.
39:49
Speaker 2: And then we graduated and my dad wasn't there.
39:52
Speaker 1: And then on July 12.
39:56
Speaker 2: 1991... uh that's when he shot himself like it was
40:05
Speaker 2: gruesome like he put a shotgun like in his mouth
40:10
Speaker 2: pulling the trigger going and i'm going to hell.
40:13
Speaker 1: It's really hard it was a hard time it was
40:21
Speaker 1: not an easy time.
40:24
Speaker 2: Yeah i was going through a hard time too I
40:30
Speaker 2: didn't get much help either.
40:33
Speaker 1: Hearing all this, John again considers Tamara's guilt over Bea.
40:37
Speaker 4: We were children. You can't expect somebody that's that age
40:43
Speaker 4: to respond in a mature way that assumes that they
40:48
Speaker 4: have training, especially because you had your own stuff going on.
40:55
Speaker 4: I think what you've described to me sounds very brave.
40:59
Speaker 4: You're probably the only person that was looking out for her.
41:05
Speaker 1: You did the best you could. Tam, how does that
41:12
Speaker 1: make you feel?
41:12
Speaker 2: I mean, it made me start to cry when he
41:17
Speaker 2: said that.
41:19
Speaker 7: You know, I hope he had somebody in her life
41:23
Speaker 7: that later told her, like, told her that she was
41:31
Speaker 7: doing the best she could.
41:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it definitely is helpful. So, thank you, Joan.
41:41
Speaker 4: You're welcome, and I'd say it again. I mean, you
41:46
Speaker 4: just need to give yourself grace. I'm sorry you had
41:48
Speaker 4: to deal with all that. It makes me sad. I
41:50
Speaker 4: wish I had known more. I'm not sure I would
41:53
Speaker 4: have been any better at helping. Probably wouldn't have been
41:56
Speaker 4: any better than any of the rest of them, but
41:59
Speaker 4: I'm really sorry.
42:02
Speaker 5: Thanks.
42:03
Speaker 2: That's so nice.
42:04
Speaker 7: That's really nice.
42:12
Speaker 2: You're a good friend, John.
42:18
Speaker 1: John's words provide validation in a way that years of
42:21
Speaker 1: my words couldn't. Sometimes, it just takes a friend to
42:25
Speaker 1: untangle the knot.
42:33
Speaker 7: All right, well, I hope you have something to eat
42:36
Speaker 7: other than that.
42:37
Speaker 1: Those eggs.
42:39
Speaker 4: I'm definitely not eating those eggs. The fireman was at
42:41
Speaker 4: the front door, and he said, I was about to
42:43
Speaker 4: kick your door in. Oh, my God. I'm glad I
42:46
Speaker 4: got there. He had an ax in his hand, and
42:48
Speaker 4: there was a fire engine. There's no telling what kind
42:52
Speaker 4: of trouble I'm in.
42:58
Speaker 1: Was that okay?
42:58
Speaker 4: Yeah.
43:03
Speaker 1: Can you let yourself off the hook a little?
43:05
Speaker 6: Yeah.
43:13
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I, and I, and I have to, I
43:17
Speaker 2: have to, it's just hard being this old, you know,
43:23
Speaker 2: like having this event like lodged inside you, like it's
43:29
Speaker 2: crystallized into the way it is for so long. As, like,
43:34
Speaker 2: something bad I did to somebody else. You know, swear
43:42
Speaker 2: being 18, and, like, what I would expect from him,
43:46
Speaker 2: I would never expect him to take on anything like that.
43:52
Speaker 1: Yeah.
43:54
Speaker 2: A 52-year-old town should do a lot better. But I
44:00
Speaker 2: can go back to... you know, 18-year-old Tam and be like,
44:09
Speaker 2: she was doing the best she could.
44:17
Speaker 1: It's not absolution, but it's something close.
44:20
Speaker 6: It's not absolution, Let's pray.
45:08
Speaker 3: Furniture's returning to its goodwill home Now that the last
45:17
Speaker 3: month's rent is scheming with the damage deposit Take this
45:22
Speaker 3: moment to decide.
45:25
Speaker 2: If we meant it, if we tried.
45:42
Speaker 1: This episode of Heavyweight was produced by Kalila Holt and me,
45:46
Speaker 1: Jonathan Goldstein, along with Lisa Wang. Our supervising producer is
45:50
Speaker 1: Stevie Lane. Editorial guidance from Emily Condon. Special thanks to
45:54
Speaker 1: Ben Natafhaffrey, Daphne Chen, Gabriel Hunter-Chang, and Jackie Cohen. Emma
46:00
Speaker 1: Munger mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellows,
46:03
Speaker 1: John K. Sampson, Emma Munger, and Bobby Lord. Additional scoring
46:07
Speaker 1: by Hugh Time, Chris Zabriskie, and Blue Dot Sessions. Our
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Speaker 1: theme song is by The Weaker Thans, courtesy of Epitaph Records.
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Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram at heavyweightpodcast or email us at
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Speaker 1: heavyweight at pushkin.fm. And be sure to subscribe to our
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Speaker 1: free newsletter at patreon.com slash heavyweight. We'll be back with
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Speaker 1: a new episode in two weeks.