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Map the Deep Sea: How Ocean Mapping Drives Conservation, Equity, and Innovation · How To Protect The Ocean

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Most of the planet is ocean.
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Yet over 75% of the sea floor remains unmapped in high resolution.
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The deep sea is earth's final frontier, home to ancient life.
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Vital ecosystems and untapped discoveries.
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Without maps, we can't protect what we don't know exists.
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Threatened coral reefs, biodiversity hotspots.
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Or submarine landslides.
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Oil and gas can drill, cables can be laid, and mining can begin all
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in areas we've barely explored.
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Map the gaps brings together the global ocean mapping community
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to close this knowledge gap.
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Through technology, science and collaboration, they chart the unseen to
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inform policy conservation and innovation mapping isn't just about data, it's
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about equity, inclusion, and shared stewardship of our ocean commerce.
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Indigenous voices, small island nations and emerging ocean leaders
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are crucial to this global effort.
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With each mapped ridge or trench, we unlock climate clues, disaster risk,
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insights, and marine management tools.
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'cause of better Ocean map means a better future for nature,
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for science, and for all of us.
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Today I'll be speaking to Tim Kerns of Map the Gaps on this episode of
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the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
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Let's start the show.
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Hey everybody.
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Welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
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I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find
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out what's happening with the ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean,
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and what you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action.
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And I'm gonna tell you something that I discovered really recently.
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Map the gaps is one of these projects that.
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Doesn't always see the big, bright lights of, you know, the news or of the main
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focus of what people are talking about when we talks about exploring the ocean,
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but mapping gaps in the ocean, mapping the deep sea is extremely important
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and crucial for our entire existence.
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Let's be honest, this is something that needs to happen.
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We need to map the gaps, and I'm so excited to be speaking with Tim
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Kerns, who is from Map the Gaps, but is also a former teacher of mine
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when I did my GIS Analyst Advanced Diploma in 2003, 2004, at the Center
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Geographical Sciences in Nova Scotia.
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When I was a kid, when I was doing my master's, I did this diploma.
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I met Tim.
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He has this.
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Energy around him that you can't duplicate.
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He loves to talk about exploration, loves to talk about sea floor, and
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this is just a perfect project for him.
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Perfect opportunity for him, not only to discuss the map the GAP symposium,
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but also discuss the future of Map the gaps and why we need to map.
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The gaps.
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It's gonna be a lot of fun.
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This interview.
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I can't wait for you guys to see the interview if you're watching this
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on YouTube or you're listening to this on your favorite podcast app.
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But definitely this is one you don't want to miss.
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If you want to know the future of Oceans and why we need to map the
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gaps, this is the episode for you.
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So here's the interview with Tim Kerns.
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Enjoy and I will talk to you after.
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Hey Tim, welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
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Are you ready to talk about Map the gaps?
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I am always ready to talk about map the gaps.
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Awesome.
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Well, this is a very special episode for me today because Tim and I, not
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only are we gonna be talking about mapping the ocean, which is something
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that's both a passion of ours, but Tim was a teacher of mine when I actually
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did my GIS Analyst, advanced diploma at COGS University in Nova Scotia.
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He taught me remote sensing.
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We had a great time in your class, Tim.
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It was always fun.
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Not only did we get to know you in the class, but we also got to know you,
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like in the lab, around the campus.
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You were a lot of fun just as well as all the other teachers.
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And it was great, uh, to be able to see it and then come, you
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know, 20 over 20 years later.
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We're not gonna say how old we are, but you know, 20 years later.
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Here we are talking on the podcast about mapping and looking at deep
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sea oceans and why we need to map these gaps that we have in the ocean.
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I am super excited to be able to talk about this, but before we do, Tim,
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why don't you just let the audience know who you are and what you do.
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Okay.
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Well, thanks Andrew for the introduction.
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And I will also say it's, it's always really, uh, very rewarding to me.
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I mean, I taught for five years Yeah.
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At, uh, the College of Geographic Sciences, which is now part of
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Nova Scotia Community College.
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And, uh, it's very rewarding to know where students ended up in their careers.
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So it's great and a little bit happenstance, the
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happenstance that here we are.
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Something, something many years later and you're highly successful in your career.
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Thank you.
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And I just think that's great and what a great opportunity we have to chat again.
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Absolutely.
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After these, uh, after these long years.
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So, uh, thanks And, uh, my name's Tim Kerns and I've been with
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Map the Gap since 2019, which is when the company was founded.
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I've developed my whole career around ocean related technology
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and almost always around ocean.
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Floor mapping or ocean floor exploration.
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So rewind back to when I lived in Ontario.
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Yeah.
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And I was in, uh, university and I did a geography undergrad and didn't
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really know what I wanted to do with it.
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I knew I liked mapping, I took an oceanography course.
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Hmm.
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And that opened my eyes Yeah.
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To the world of oceanography.
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And even though I grew up in Ontario, I immediately had this.
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Inexplicable love for the ocean, uh, that I'm sure still my parents scratch their
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heads over and I knew that I needed to go out and dis and do ocean floor mapping.
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Yeah.
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That's what I wanted to do.
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And so I was very fortunate.
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Uh, and I went and I actually was a student as well at the
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College of Geographic Sciences.
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Yeah.
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Or COGS as people say.
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And although I did a remote sensing.
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Uh, advanced diploma, I actually tailored most of my work around ocean
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floor mapping, and it was just, I was just a sponge of information and, uh,
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eventually got hired at the Bed Bedford Institute of Oceanography mm-hmm.
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With the Canadian Hydrographic Service, where it was a fire hose
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of knowledge and training and, and the beginning of my career really.
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In this, uh, fascinating technology.
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So that's, that's, that was a little bit of where I was Yeah.
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At the beginning of my career.
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And I've done a lot of things over the years.
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I've taught, as you mentioned, I've been in software development, uh, I've
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led project teams and consulting teams.
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I've run companies and I've supported companies and worked
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in hardware and software.
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And most recently at a nonprofit doing amazing work around marine
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observations in the Great Lakes and supporting Lakebed 2030.
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And, uh, now I'm, uh, still supporting Map the Gaps, which is really a non-profit.
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Yeah.
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It's mostly volunteer run and has been since 2019 and Map the Gaps
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was kind of founded out of the Shell Ocean Discovery XPRIZE competition.
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Hmm.
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Which, uh, I was part of a team that started in 2016.
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Yeah.
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And this was a think of a bad news Bears.
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Uh, uh, kind of a ragtag group of people from all over the world.
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Uh, we had almost no money, but we were very generously supported
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by the Nip on Foundation.
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Mm-hmm.
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Who supported our team.
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We put together a submission and a proposal to the Shell Ocean
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Discovery xprize, and our team ended up winning the whole darn thing.
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It was quite remarkable.
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Uh, we were the underdog and we still pulled it off, and after
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that we wanted to keep the spirit alive of doing amazing things.
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Yeah.
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With.
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A disparate group of people from all over the world.
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Yeah.
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And boom, map the gaps was formed.
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Amazing.
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Just to go back, I forgot that you grew up in Ontario.
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What university did you go to where you took oceanography?
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I went to University of Windsor, which I don't think is known for oceanography
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program, but it had one course, yeah.
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In maybe third year.
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And, uh, and I loved it and it was great.
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Love it.
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Well, it does have a good fisheries program, if I'm not mistaken.
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Like I remember that was one of my universities I went to.
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I went to Guelph, but, uh, no, Windsor was really good in their, in their biology and
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their like physical sciences and stuff.
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And, and, and that's awesome.
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Um.
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Now with, with map the gaps, I mean, with all your, with all your
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information, like, like, uh, all your experience, I should say, and, and
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the value that you have brought to every position that you've been in.
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Like you've had a pretty wide breadth of, you know, from teaching to, you
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know, hardware, software development to, uh, running companies and so forth.
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When MAP the Gap idea came to you and your colleagues.
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Did it, was it, was it your idea or was it just a bunch of people
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sitting around at a conference being like, we, we need to do this.
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Like this is something that's gonna, like how did the idea come to be in 2019?
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Oh, that's a great question.
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I think really it was a group, it was a group effort.
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Yeah.
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I'm not gonna claim any sort of, uh, ownership or, or anything like that.
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Uh, there was several of us who were part of the leadership of the XPRIZE team.
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Um, I had also been running, uh.
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An annual event on called, uh, the Map the Gap Symposium.
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Mm-hmm.
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That had been started in 2016.
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Uh, that was an affiliation with Jeb Co. Right.
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And uh, really I think there was just a general momentum of
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wanting to keep this spirit alive.
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Yeah.
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But also wanting to formalize the symposium a little bit.
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So I'd say some of my close colleagues of the leadership from
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the XPRIZE team and myself, we said, what's the best way to do that?
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Really the best way to do that is forming a legitimate company.
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Yeah.
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A notfor profit.
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Yeah.
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Uh, where the rules are very clear in terms of any work that we do
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is in the science domain, right.
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Any data we collect is publicly available.
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Um, and then have access to this network of people all around the world.
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Yeah.
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Who can come in, come out, they can participate when they can or not.
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And that's the beauty of a volunteer based organization.
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Mm-hmm.
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And it's not to say it'll always be volunteer based
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because we are trying to raise.
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Some real capital, right?
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So we can grow the company, uh, to do more of what we've been
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doing for the last six years.
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And yeah, and this is, this is always, that interests me 'cause
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I've, I've known a lot of nonprofits that have grown out of symposiums.
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So, so first symposium was in Mount the Gap symposium was in 2016.
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And then, and by 2019 you're like, let's formalize this a little bit more.
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Let's put a company around it, a nonprofit organization around it.
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When you ran the first, when you guys ran the first symposium.
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Uh, to 2019.
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What made it so that that was like, this is what we need to do?
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Was it just, was it increasing in membership and increasing in, in
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participation from other people?
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Was it other people being like, Hey, we need to do, like, was was the sort of the
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final, um, resolution of the symposium being like, we need to do something more.
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We need to do more things, or we need to really formalize this.
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What made that.
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Come that idea come about where it's like, we need to formalize this and
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put it under a structure, like a nonprofit organization like Math Gaps.
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Right?
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Well, like many things in life, the simplest answer is usually the best one.
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And in this case, it was a very practical consideration.
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Okay.
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Which was there were expenses incurred.
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That required a business.
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Gotcha.
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That makes sense.
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Required a credit card.
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Uh, but it, that was, I mean, we probably could have continued on, right?
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But another thing happened between 2016 and 2019 as well, which was
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the success of the symposium grew and was attracting more people.
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Uh, so we, we needed to, to be able to put on a bigger event with.
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More things and food and beverage and activities and attract speakers.
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And so all of that of course requires capital.
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And it rent from, I think in 2016 we had maybe 50 or 60 people attend.
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And by 2019 we were having 150 people.
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Wow.
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Uh, come to the events and then when we went through the COVID era,
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we had over 600 people tuning in.
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'cause it was all live streamed Of course.
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And so the event itself grew Yeah.
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And just warranted practical considerations for sure.
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Like having a proper, a dedicated website, having a credit card to
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pay for things, having the ability to sign contracts, but it was also
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attracting a whole new audience.
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Mm-hmm.
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Back in 2016, it was a very small group of people who were
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very familiar with each other.
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By 2019, our percentage of people who were attending a symposium
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for the first time was at 80%.
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So we recognized that we were attracting new people to the symposium
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year over year, which was great.
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Yeah.
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Because they were getting exposed to ocean floor mapping.
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Mm-hmm.
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Which is a relatively unknown, I would say.
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It's not a technology, it's a relatively unknown activity.
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Yeah.
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Many people think that the oceans have been met.
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Yeah.
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And that's one of our largest barriers that my colleagues and I in this community
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have is because they see Google Earth or they see the base map from Esri.
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Yeah.
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Or wherever.
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Or they see the pictures in National Geographic and they think,
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oh, but it's already been done.
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Mm-hmm.
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We say, well, not really.
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Yeah.
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And it's, it's as, it's very interesting.
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It's like these, these assumptions that we think that have been done because
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Yeah, it makes sense to do them.
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So people are thinking, of course we have, we've, we've mapped them and we know.
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Probably what we need to know about, about the deep, which we'll
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get into in just a sec, because we know that, that that's not true.
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The, uh, you mentioned the increase of people that are coming and the makeup of
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people, you know, mapping the gaps and, and looking at ocean floor exploration.
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Looking at, at the science that can happen, the discoveries that can happen,
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um, the opportunities that are available.
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Who are the, like what professional backgrounds are the people who, who
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normally attend these symposiums and make up sort of the membership or the
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people within, within Maps the gaps Now.
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Mm-hmm.
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That's a great question.
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Um, well, it, it's evolved.
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Mm-hmm.
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Over time.
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So I would say historically or traditionally, the people who are involved
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in any sort of ocean floor exploration and mapping fall into scientific and go.
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Camps, people who are doing this for hydrographic purposes.
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Mm-hmm.
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Which is nautical charting, safety of navigation, and, um, uh, protection
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of people and vessels at sea.
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Mm-hmm.
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Uh, then there's also exploration, uh, sorry, like mineral exploration or.
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Oil and gas exploration.
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Mm-hmm.
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Or root survey for, uh, where to lay cables and pipelines.
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Yep.
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Right?
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Yep.
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You need to know what the bottom looks like.
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There's a lot of work around benthic habitat and understanding the nature
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of the sea floor, so we know what biology and marine life, uh, lives
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there and, and calls that their home.
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Um, and then there's also a lot of.
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Complimentary science that goes along with that better understanding.
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Tsunami modeling, understanding seismic and plate tectonics, and all of these
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influences that affect the oceans and ultimately earth, um, come from this
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foundational data set of bathymetry.
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So the professionals who are involved are.
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Survey engineers, they're government officials or their graphers or baths.
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Mm-hmm.
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Um, they're scientists, they're oceanographers.
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It's a really wide range of people who, um, get involved.
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And in the symposium we also started attracting a new audience
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member, which was young people who.
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Maybe had a background like yours in GIS.
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Yeah, and were really interested because two other things happened in
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the late teens of, uh, as it relates to the ocean, but probably three things.
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One was the general population of earth like society became critically aware that.
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Uh, the oceans are perhaps in harm.
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Mm-hmm.
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And we need to do a better job of protecting them writ large.
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Yeah.
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And so awareness of the ocean environment, things like the garbage
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patch and pollution and warming temperatures, were all becoming
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more predominant in the news media.
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Mm-hmm.
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And becoming on people's minds.
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Um, the Jeb Co. Jeb Co, which is the general IC metric chart of the oceans.
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Partnered with the NIP on Foundation to create a project
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called the Seabed 2030 Project.
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So this is supported by Jeb Co. And the NIP on Foundation and
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the Seabed 2030 project has been phenomenal in raising awareness about
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the need for ocean floor mapping.
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Yep.
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And just how little of it has been done.
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So all of that happened after 2016, and then the UN.
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Has a decade of ocean science, which is all around, you know, 10 years all around
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ocean science and ocean technology and, and the needs of our, of our own planet.
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So I think all of those things culminated into attracting a new audience for
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groups like map the Gaps and the symposium, but not just map the gaps.
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It's just, it's all over, uh, young people who want to be involved.
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They want to contribute, they want to put their energy into this, learn more so they
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can do more and take responsibility and.
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Action for the health of our own planet.
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Mm-hmm.
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And that's, and that's interesting.
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So as the, the people changed and increased, did the mission for Map
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the Gaps change, like as it was formed in 2019 officially, you know,
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you probably had like an idea in the symposium and there's probably different
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themes throughout the, for each symposium, what was like the initial.
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Mission of Maps, the GA map, the gaps when the symposium started.
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And how did, did it, did it change when you actually created the entity
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as we know it now, as map the gaps?
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Uh, that's a great question.
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The initial mission was a, to put on the symposium.
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Yeah.
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Every year, another part of the mission was to develop partners and help build
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this network of companies, organizations, and individuals who wanted to support.
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Ocean floor mapping and exploration, um, through helping map the gaps.
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And then a third part was actually participating.
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In and coordinating actual emissions.
18:09
Hmm.
18:09
And so this is people going out on boats or remotely processing data, uh, that are
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in support of bathymetry data collection.
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Hmm.
18:18
And so we did all three of those things and continue to
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do all three of those things.
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I would say the mission expanded over the last five years,
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and this is where we are now.
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We're at this point where we realize that there's really.
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Maybe none, but certainly not very many organizations that
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are advocating or actively doing systematic ocean floor exploration.
18:43
Right.
18:44
So certainly Seabed 2030.
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Once again, phenomenal.
18:48
Yeah.
18:48
Uh, growth and advocacy for the need and has also done a great job at aggregating
18:54
available data sets and in many cases, uh, supporting or partnering with other
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organizations who are collecting data.
19:00
Mm-hmm.
19:00
That then contribute that to this public database, uh, accessed
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via Seabed 2030 map the gaps.
19:07
Wants to take a, a bit of a step further.
19:10
We want to actually organize and do.
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Systematic ocean floor exploration.
19:15
Hmm.
19:16
And so there's a program that we're looking to develop now, and that's part of
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what we're talking about at the conference this fall in October, is how do we connect
19:26
individuals perhaps with money Yeah.
19:29
Or organizations to participate in ocean floor exploration in some capacity.
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And part of our new, part of our new mantra, I guess, is that who can
19:39
participate in ocean floor exploration?
19:41
Anyone can.
19:42
Right?
19:43
You don't have to be an oceanographer, you don't have to
19:46
be a super wealthy individual.
19:48
You don't have to have a boat.
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You don't have to be belong to a hydrographic office in a
19:53
company or in a, in a country.
19:55
Anyone can participate in Ocean four exploration.
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Yeah.
19:58
And there's various ways that they can do that.
20:01
And that's interesting.
20:03
You know, in the name itself, map the gaps.
20:05
We're looking at mapping the deep sea, but let's be honest.
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The gaps are pretty big right now.
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We're not talking about small gaps like small swaths of, of
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areas that have not been mapped.
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There's a lot of area in the deep sea that has not been mapped,
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so it's a large undertaking.
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How do you, where do you begin?
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With this mission of, of bringing people in and, and like, I guess when the
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people come in, what are, what are their thoughts when they initially come in?
20:37
Some of these professionals that you have on Engineers, Beres, you know,
20:41
GIS, you know, young gi s people, people who have been doing GIS for a
20:44
long time, like yourself and like, what is the idea around this to like, where
20:50
do we begin and how do we proceed?
20:52
Obviously the money you mentioned like the initial funding, but after like
20:56
where do we begin in terms of mapping?
20:58
Right.
20:59
Well, let's talk about the name.
21:00
Yeah.
21:01
Because the name means more than just the activity of mapping the ocean floor.
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When we came up with the name, map, the gaps.
21:11
And originally it started, I didn't, I didn't invent the term
21:13
map the gaps that started years ago.
21:16
Mm-hmm.
21:16
Through people in the Jeb Co community to talk about this
21:18
concept of mapping the gaps.
21:20
But when we decided to name the company Map the gaps, it was because it was
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more than just mapping the ocean.
21:27
It was also about mapping those gaps or connecting those gaps between.
21:31
People.
21:32
Mm. And that is one of the things that's missing.
21:35
If you go back historically at who has done this type of work, it was graphers.
21:40
It was militaries and nas.
21:43
It was science or mineral exploration and oil and gas.
21:46
It was a relatively small, and even take it a step further, it was mostly.
21:51
White Western.
21:52
Yeah.
21:52
Wealthy countries Yes.
21:53
Or individuals who are doing it.
21:55
Yeah.
21:55
So we, it's a, the earth is a big, it's a big place.
21:58
Mm-hmm.
21:59
And the oceans are big and they touch borders of countries that do not have
22:03
the resources that we may have mm-hmm.
22:05
In Canada and North America and others.
22:07
So how do we get those people involved?
22:09
And that was part of the original mission of MAP the Gaps, was connecting other
22:14
people who may not have the resources.
22:16
Mm-hmm.
22:16
So that they can also participate.
22:18
In this grand endeavor.
22:20
So now when people come to us and they say, Hey, I'm a GIS person and I want
22:25
to get involved, well, there was just a fantastic post on LinkedIn the other
22:29
day by Natalie Gilson that talks about.
22:31
Um, I'm participating in something, yet I'm behind the screen.
22:35
I'm on my laptop or where my keyboard Right.
22:38
And yet I still, I still wanna be part of it and I am part of it, but
22:43
I don't feel like I'm part of it enough, and that's a great sentiment.
22:47
So true.
22:47
Uh, you know, I haven't, I haven't been on a survey vessel, survey
22:50
myself for a couple of decades now.
22:53
Really?
22:54
So true.
22:54
We do.
22:54
You know, and yet I'm still involved.
22:56
Yeah.
22:56
And so when people come to us, in some cases, it's.
22:59
I want to get out there.
23:00
I wanna be on a boat.
23:01
I want to collect data and know what it's like.
23:03
And that's, and that's great.
23:04
We'll try to find opportunities and connect people so they can
23:07
have that, even if it's part-time, even if it's one-off and they, they
23:11
may love it or they may hate it.
23:13
Mm-hmm.
23:13
And that's okay.
23:14
They're still getting involved for other people.
23:17
It's supporting, not just map the gaps, it's supporting other organizations.
23:21
So maybe we refer them to support CED 2030 or, or academic, or we get
23:26
help get them into programs so they can get some additional training.
23:29
Yeah.
23:29
Um, that's, that's certainly another way.
23:32
And then in many cases we have people who support map the gaps directly
23:35
through supporting our social media, helping build the website, right.
23:38
Doing fundraising, connecting and growing.
23:41
The partner community, um, helping with the symposium, that's always, yeah,
23:46
of course that people can get involved and support it, but it is the task
23:51
of mapping our oceans is monumental.
23:54
And it could be multi-decade old even if we were to start tomorrow.
23:58
Um, and it's also expensive, however, relative to other things that humans
24:04
have done, it's not that much.
24:06
Right?
24:07
Yeah.
24:07
So.
24:08
We fund and do space exploration.
24:12
Mm-hmm.
24:12
And have for many decades now it's time to turn or expand some of that energy
24:17
and those resources onto planet Earth.
24:19
And I don't think we can just rely on governments.
24:22
And there there's two reasons for that.
24:23
One, governments aren't spending enough money or, you know, they're
24:26
not investing in this area.
24:28
Mm-hmm.
24:28
But even if they did, they would only do it within their national boundary.
24:33
True.
24:33
Right.
24:33
They're inclusive economics, so it's very difficult otherwise.
24:36
Yeah.
24:37
A lot of the ocean is in international waters.
24:40
Mm-hmm.
24:41
The deep blue.
24:42
And so how do we fund that?
24:44
How do we get people out there?
24:46
And it is, it's very important to do it.
24:48
Mm-hmm.
24:49
It's never been done.
24:51
No, and it's never been done.
24:52
Uh, it, what's, what's interesting too is I've, we've, you know, we've seen the
24:55
debates, you know, is it easier to work in space or, or why explore space when we
25:00
haven't even really explored the ocean to the depths of that we need to, you know?
25:04
And, um, the, the, the, the focus should be on the ocean.
25:09
Obviously we are biased.
25:10
We're on this podcast.
25:11
It's how to protect the ocean.
25:13
So we're, we're definitely biased, but there's a, there, there is
25:16
an inherent truth in we need to protect what's on this planet.
25:20
You know, we know we're, we're doing damage to the planet.
25:22
We don't even know the severity yet.
25:25
Of total damage that we've, we've done or total dis like influence
25:29
around the ocean that we've done.
25:30
'cause we don't know much about the deep 'cause.
25:32
We haven't even mapped some of the basics of, of, of some of the, the deep areas
25:36
that we, that we want to find out about.
25:39
Um, I feel as though, uh, and, and I'd love to ask you, do you find that.
25:44
Governments are quick to explore more when there's an opportunity to benefit
25:50
from it in either natural resource extraction or some sort of, you know,
25:56
whether it's, it's a, uh, renewable energy, like tidal energy or looking at.
26:01
Deep sea mining.
26:01
We're quicker to explore that than just to explore for the sake of
26:05
knowing where, you know, what is down there and, and what we have and, and
26:10
the, just the depths and, and the bathymetry and the, and the landscape
26:13
of it all, or the seascape of it all.
26:15
Do you find that there is more of a, of a push when there's something to gain
26:20
for these governments or, uh, do you find, do you, do you think otherwise?
26:24
It'd be interesting to hear your thoughts.
26:26
'cause you've, you've been around a lot of different types of like,
26:29
private and, and public entities, uh, and talking about this.
26:34
Well, I think like anything in life, people are motivated or organizations
26:40
are motivated by different factors.
26:42
Mm-hmm.
26:43
So some of those could be economic factors.
26:45
Mm-hmm.
26:46
And some could be.
26:47
Um, scientific or conservation, some could be exploitative.
26:52
Yep.
26:53
And so it, it really runs the gamut.
26:55
Mm-hmm.
26:56
And I don't think national governments are any different.
26:59
Right.
26:59
Uh, even at the beginning of my career when I was with the Canadian
27:03
Hydrographic Service, we had partnered with Clearwater Fisheries mm-hmm.
27:07
Mm-hmm.
27:08
Berg to better understand benthic habitat by doing sea floor mapping.
27:14
Yeah.
27:14
Right.
27:15
And at that time, areas like Browns Bank and Georgia's Bank and
27:19
German bank off the coast of Nova Scotia, they'd never been mapped.
27:22
It was very poorly understood in terms of what the sea floor morphology looked like.
27:27
Right.
27:27
And yet the fishing community was well aware that there were some areas
27:31
that high had higher yields Yeah.
27:33
Than others for their catch.
27:35
And so part of that partnership was definitely economic.
27:39
Yeah.
27:39
Um, but it was also scientific.
27:41
Mm-hmm.
27:41
So it was understanding, collecting the science to help better
27:45
influence the economic side.
27:48
And in the end, fishing presumably became more efficient, but also safer.
27:54
In a weird sort of way because then they weren't fishing in areas
27:58
where there were sensitive habitat.
28:00
Right, right.
28:01
Because they were at least aware of where the habitat was.
28:03
And before that it was a crap shoot.
28:05
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
28:07
I, I think that's just one example of a private partner, private public
28:11
partnership that had really great benefits for the Canadian government
28:16
in terms of collecting all this amazing data that better informed.
28:20
Um, the, the public mm-hmm.
28:23
And themselves, scientists on what was there, but it also helped
28:26
efficient community as well.
28:28
And so I think another, so that's one example.
28:31
I think another example is the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea.
28:36
So countries being able to better delineate their boundaries based on
28:40
the foot of the continental shelf.
28:43
And you know, I mean there's all kinds of variables that go into that, of course.
28:46
And I'm not an expert at, at all on it, but that was one.
28:50
Motivation and impetus for national governments.
28:53
Mm-hmm.
28:53
To rally around the concept of better understanding.
28:56
Their sea floor adjacent to their coastline going out however many miles
29:02
was necessary so that they could make a claim that would ultimately help define
29:07
and protect their national sovereignty.
29:09
In terms of a boundary.
29:11
Yeah.
29:12
Right?
29:12
Yeah.
29:12
Um, but also all that data was collected, you know, phenomenal value and for.
29:18
Uh, kind of follow on or downstream science that could be
29:22
done as a result of that data.
29:23
And that's what we keep coming back to with bathymetry or this ocean floor data.
29:29
Really, it's a foundational data set.
29:32
It's like.
29:33
If we don't have that, yeah.
29:35
Then how can we possibly do everything else?
29:37
For sure.
29:38
And so, I mean, you know, and that's, that's one of the largest
29:41
justifications for collecting it in the first place, right?
29:43
Is that there's so much complimentary and additional work that can
29:47
happen as a result of just starting with this foundational data set.
29:52
To get data, you have to go out and map and map these, these areas.
29:55
Uh, and it, and it becomes that.
29:57
It becomes a challenge in itself.
29:59
It can be, it can be, uh, expensive.
30:01
It's to, to know where to start, know where to be, like where to go, how is map
30:07
the gaps going to define that of priority areas of where to, uh, of where to map
30:14
first or will that be defined by the person who's willing, or the company who's
30:18
willing to fund it and just be like, Hey.
30:20
I wanna know more about this, this specific area.
30:22
How are we going to prioritize this at Map the gaps?
30:28
Well, it's a great question.
30:31
Map the gaps is not going to arbitrarily make priority areas, right?
30:36
That's for sure.
30:36
Right.
30:37
But I do think that we're looking at exploring some new ways to
30:42
identify priorities, and some of that could be through gamifying.
30:46
How it's done.
30:47
So imagine a landscape where you have small little hexagons and
30:52
some individual gets to choose which hexagon they wanna map.
30:57
Right.
30:57
Or they, they would like to see mapped.
30:59
Mm-hmm.
30:59
And maybe they're picking it because there might be a plane crash in there.
31:03
Yeah.
31:03
Or a shipwreck or some other sunken treasure or.
31:08
Maybe there's some underwater canyon or volcano, or maybe they just
31:12
like that area because it's got 50 degrees south and 50 degrees.
31:15
You know, there's some sort of other interesting, uh, aspect to it for why
31:19
they chose that particular spot on the ocean that they want to sponsor and adopt.
31:25
And now.
31:27
That doesn't mean we're just gonna turn around and send a
31:29
ship out there and go map it.
31:30
Obviously we need critical mass of course, before any activities can be done.
31:34
But I think priority setting could be done through a variety of different ways.
31:37
One is just through, um, money or, or vote even, right?
31:42
Yeah.
31:42
Like where should we go first?
31:43
Another could be through, um, interesting areas.
31:47
So perhaps there's, we know that.
31:50
Through course resolution data, let's say something that you
31:53
might see on Google Earth.
31:54
Uh, we know there's like some sort of canyon something
31:58
there, or some sea mounts.
32:00
We want to go explore that.
32:01
So maybe that'll attract more interest, uh, that could help
32:04
with the priority setting.
32:06
I don't know.
32:07
I think that, I think that's an area to be developed in terms of
32:10
how do we set priorities for what needs to be mapped when so much
32:14
of it hasn't been done at all.
32:16
Absolutely.
32:17
That's, I think that's a, it's a great question.
32:18
I think I love the way to explore the, the different ways of, of doing things.
32:22
Gamifying a little bit through votes or through where people want to go if they,
32:26
if they're interested in a specific area.
32:28
I think it's great.
32:29
It's a great start anyway to see where people are interested.
32:32
Plus it democratizes the whole thing.
32:34
I think that's a, uh, I love that way that that'd be my preference.
32:37
Yeah.
32:37
Just to put it on the record that, that, that's my preference.
32:40
I think that's a great way of doing it.
32:42
Um, and there's just so many things that you can, you can do,
32:44
uh, when, when going above that.
32:46
And then of course, the other part of about the gaps, which is an
32:49
important part, which could help with where to set, you know, where
32:52
they go forth, is the symposium.
32:53
And, and so there's a symposium, uh, every year is that it's an annual symposium
32:58
and there's gonna be one in 2025.
32:59
Is that the, that's the idea, correct.
33:01
It, it's been almost, almost annual.
33:04
We've, we've had a few, uh, gaps Okay.
33:06
Here and there.
33:07
Yeah.
33:07
But yes, there will be one in 2025.
33:10
It's called Ocean Floor Explorer.
33:12
Okay.
33:12
And it's in Victoria, British Columbia.
33:14
Yeah.
33:14
October 26th to the 29th.
33:16
And it's being co-hosted, um, by Coast, which is, uh, a, a, a Blue
33:22
Tech Innovator and uh, um, group here in Victoria, British Columbia.
33:27
That helps companies.
33:28
Get off the ground, and it's also forms a network of, uh, companies
33:33
and individuals in the area.
33:34
Interesting.
33:34
Okay, cool.
33:35
Now, when if, if people are interested in this topic and they want to go to
33:40
the symposium, what, what would, what should they expect at the symposium?
33:44
Uh, this year it falls into a few broad categories, and one is, uh, the
33:50
challenges and the value of doing ocean floor exploration in the first place.
33:55
And so that is, that is a good question that people often ask is,
33:59
well, why, yeah, why should we, and there's two sides to that answer.
34:04
One, one of it is.
34:06
Very practical, scientific, economic, uh, safety of life.
34:09
You see all those, all those amazing reasons for why we should do it.
34:12
Mm-hmm.
34:13
And then the other one is a little, a little less quantitative and
34:17
it's actually more qualitative.
34:18
It's because it's earth and we've never done it.
34:23
And so that's the emotional connection of we need to.
34:27
Explore our own planet.
34:29
We need to understand it in order to protect it.
34:32
And in order to do that, we need to measure it.
34:34
And none of that's been done.
34:35
So part of, part of the first portion of the conference is to talk about the
34:41
value of it, the value of doing it, and the value of the data that is there.
34:46
Mm-hmm.
34:46
Right.
34:47
I mentioned already about all the downstream, um, benefits that
34:51
come from collecting this data.
34:54
Another part of the conference is to talk about, well, how could we fund it?
34:58
There are different models, certainly national governments.
35:02
Um, put money into it.
35:03
There's some high net worth individuals that have funded
35:06
their own missions or others.
35:08
Uh, there's other NGOs and nonprofits that are participating, certainly academia.
35:13
So is there, are there other models or can we continue to explore those models?
35:18
One model of course is crowdsourcing it.
35:20
Yeah.
35:21
So crowd funding it.
35:22
Really?
35:22
Yeah.
35:23
How do we get individuals?
35:24
How does my mom Yeah.
35:25
Participate.
35:27
She's not going to, actually, my mom probably would go out on a
35:30
ship, but you may not have the opportunity to go out on a ship.
35:34
Right, right.
35:35
Um, she's pretty adventurous.
35:38
Uh, but, but she still wants to support it.
35:40
So how do we connect again, how do we map that connection, that gap?
35:45
How do we get regular people involved to participate?
35:49
So that's part of the other.
35:51
Piece of the conference.
35:52
Mm-hmm.
35:52
A third part is what technologies are required and what
35:56
technologies are coming online.
35:58
So it traditionally, especially in deep water, you need big ships, you need
36:03
humans, you need expensive equipment.
36:06
It's a lot of data processing for a lot of data.
36:09
And it takes a really long time.
36:12
So that's the traditional, well, what else is available?
36:16
What else do we need?
36:17
Right?
36:17
Right.
36:18
Maybe this is a call to action to develop new technology, which is why
36:21
young people coming, young engineers and inventors and scientists are so
36:25
important to have, because young people often have the best imaginations, right?
36:29
Oh, absolutely.
36:30
And so part of the Tuesday morning on the.
36:32
28th will be to talk about technologies that are coming online, and I
36:36
know Victor Vesco will be there.
36:38
He's going to an announce or share more about his amazing, uh,
36:43
innovations that he's been working on.
36:45
We've also got artificial intelligence specialists who will
36:48
be there, people who are making deep ocean, long, uh, range vehicles.
36:54
We've got shallower water, short range vehicles.
36:58
Swarm technology and, and other sort of complimentary technologies
37:02
that go along with all of that, even to process the data.
37:05
And then in the afternoon of the 28th, we've got real technology.
37:10
I'm not, the other stuff isn't real, but like hands-on, uh, what do you call it,
37:16
like a show and tell almost down at the Coast Guard station where people will be
37:19
able to see some of this stuff in action.
37:21
Uh, see other complimentary technologies that maybe isn't related to bathymetry,
37:25
but it's still related to the ocean, and that's an opportunity
37:28
for the public and the media to come and really see this stuff.
37:32
Yeah.
37:32
And, and that's so important to, because it makes it tangible and makes
37:35
it a little more, um, understandable than something that's abstract.
37:40
Absolutely.
37:40
Absolutely.
37:41
It, it looks like, uh, I mean, it looks like a lot of fun.
37:43
It looks, it looks like a wide variety, not your typical, uh, symposium that
37:47
you see with a lot of, uh, uh, tech.
37:50
Uh, industry, uh, and I think this is, this is something that's really great.
37:54
Looking at funding options.
37:56
Look, it looks like it hits the gamut, like communications, funding,
37:59
uh, the actual technology of it all.
38:02
Uh, it, I, I really enjoy that aspect of, of putting it there and
38:06
all in the landscape of an ocean background like Victoria, uh, in bc.
38:11
It's just such a, such a perfect, uh, perfect place to put it.
38:14
Um, uh, I love it.
38:16
I love the aspect.
38:17
Um, and I, I'm, and I'm glad that you mentioned communications because
38:20
I, I meant to include that as well.
38:21
There is a whole session around communication.
38:24
Yeah.
38:24
'cause that's, that's a challenge.
38:26
Of, now that we understand maybe the value and, and the challenges and,
38:30
and the practical approaches that we could take, but a big problem,
38:34
a big, big challenge in this whole community is the communication piece.
38:38
Mm-hmm.
38:38
How do we reach.
38:40
People like my mom, how do we reach policymakers?
38:43
How do we reach perhaps wealthy people or mm-hmm.
38:45
Hedge fund managers who have clients that wanna support and contribute to this.
38:50
How do we reach those people?
38:52
Uh, because the, the old method of mapping the ocean floor is really important.
38:59
Isn't that effective?
39:00
Sometimes I think we need some new and clever ways for how
39:03
we can reach these people.
39:05
Yeah.
39:05
And as someone who's into communications, I feel, you know,
39:07
it's, it's really interesting because.
39:09
When I look at comments, when I post certain, uh, videos or, or my po like,
39:15
like the video podcast or audio podcast, and I see the comments, sometimes you
39:19
don't, you don't expect what people who are not involved in oceans or
39:23
conservation or exploration, they have a very different view of how things look at.
39:28
A lot of it's like, what, how is it important to me?
39:31
You know, a lot of it is, is is a personal thing, and so it's like how
39:34
do you make mapping the deep sea?
39:38
Personal to the people who are, who are there, who are watching it
39:42
without putting it out of reach.
39:44
'cause I think a lot of people think like mapping something that, that deep is not
39:48
gonna affect them in any kind of way in the future or anything in the deep sea
39:51
is not gonna affect them in the future.
39:54
So I think that's the challenge is like, how do we make it personal to them?
39:57
How do we make it as like, you want to be a part of this because
40:00
of this without being threatening.
40:02
You know?
40:02
It's like if we don't map it, the world's gonna end.
40:04
You know what I mean?
40:05
Like they, because people just.
40:06
I'm not gonna listen to that because I don't like, I don't want to hear that.
40:11
But they want to know why it's important, you know?
40:13
And I think, and I think that's valid and I think, but I think it's also the
40:16
challenge because the, the direct, you know, function of mapping these areas is
40:22
not gonna help them personally for the most part, other than maybe satisfying
40:26
the need to, to get that information and to help other things in that process.
40:30
So it's a matter, I think that's the challenge is trying to get them.
40:34
See it for themselves and how important it's, right.
40:38
Well, one way that it makes it personal is, uh, there's two sides to this.
40:43
Yeah.
40:44
One is through the financial benefit.
40:46
So if someone donates money to a nonprofit like MAP apps mm-hmm.
40:50
Well, then they get a charitable tax.
40:53
For sure credit for that.
40:54
Yeah.
40:54
Yeah.
40:55
So for many people that matters, right?
40:57
Yeah, absolutely.
40:58
That because they want to donate something that's for a cause.
41:01
Mm-hmm.
41:02
Uh, that they support.
41:03
So, so that's one aspect.
41:05
So there's like a, a very tangible personal benefit or corporate
41:09
benefit by donating to a nonprofit.
41:12
Another benefit is that.
41:16
Mapping like this always needs to be done.
41:18
There's always even in mm-hmm.
41:20
Harbor, it's constantly being surveyed and resurveyed because the ocean
41:23
floor is a dynamic environment.
41:25
Yes.
41:25
It's changing.
41:26
However, that being said, it's never been done the first time.
41:30
Yeah.
41:30
And so we have to recognize that there, there is something about human nature
41:38
where we want to explore the undiscovered.
41:41
Mm-hmm.
41:42
And the ocean floor.
41:44
Remains undiscovered.
41:46
Yeah.
41:46
For the most part, over 70%.
41:49
Yeah.
41:49
So how do we get people, and I think people will want to be a part of it,
41:54
and if they have their tiny little area that they say, I was involved
41:59
with that, and there's the picture hanging on the wall behind me.
42:03
Mm-hmm.
42:03
That shows that I was responsible for that, or I participated with.
42:09
My third year university class or my, or my sixth grade class, or a group
42:14
of neighbors and friends or a hedge fund that I was with that funded and
42:20
supported the exploration of that piece of the ocean floor because once
42:25
it's done, once we've done it once.
42:27
We'll never be able to do it.
42:29
Yeah.
42:29
Again, in the same way.
42:31
And so there's something finite about it.
42:33
Yep.
42:33
Like, like the little tickers that you see on the side of the YMCA, you
42:38
know, with the, with the thermometer going up and up with each, uh, $5,000
42:42
donation that comes in until they reach their goal, we can do the same.
42:46
Yeah.
42:46
So as we continue.
42:48
To progress towards a hundred percent, then that's less opportunity
42:52
for people to get involved.
42:54
Yeah, agreed.
42:55
I do think that's where the emotional connection comes in.
42:58
Yeah.
42:58
This idea of I'm part of the last great exploration on
43:02
earth and it is the last one.
43:04
Right, because we've done everything else.
43:07
We've done all the land, we've done all the ice, and we've done lots of
43:12
things, but we haven't done the oceans.
43:15
And it's, there's a lot to do.
43:17
There is a lot to do, no doubt in my mind.
43:19
Uh, and, and it starts with, you know, following map the
43:23
gaps, learning at the symposium.
43:26
If you're interested in this kind of avenue, uh, whether you're
43:29
involved within the, the mapping industry or the ocean industry.
43:32
Or you're, you're involved personally and you want to find out more.
43:36
Uh, the symposium is October 27th to the 28th.
43:40
That's correct.
43:40
20 October 27th, 26th to the 29th.
43:42
26th to the 29th.
43:43
My apologies.
43:44
October 26th to the 29th, uh, in Victoria, uh, bc Uh, it's gonna be a lot of fun.
43:50
Uh, this is, you know.
43:51
I would love to invite you back, Tim, to talk more about mapping and getting
43:55
into the details of what it's gonna look like to, to map these, uh, these
43:59
areas and, and why it's so important.
44:02
Uh, so I'd love to invite you back on to, to discuss more, uh, maybe in, in,
44:06
in August, we'll have you on for, for another podcast, if that's okay with you.
44:09
And, uh, it'll be a lot of fun to, to be able to explore more, uh,
44:13
of the Deep Sea and to see what what there is to, to look out for.
44:16
So, uh, looking forward to having you back on if, uh, if you're willing, of course.
44:20
Yeah.
44:21
Great.
44:21
Thanks, Andrew.
44:21
It was, uh, it's been, it's been a pleasure to speak with you and of
44:24
course I'd be, I, I would welcome the opportunity to come back.
44:27
I'm always happy to talk about this stuff.
44:28
Like, like anyone who's passionate about it, I have short things to talk about.
44:33
Awesome.
44:34
So if you're willing to have me, I'd, I'd love to come back and
44:36
talk more about it, so thanks.
44:37
Yeah, absolutely.
44:38
We'll put the link, uh, for people to get more information on the symposium.
44:41
It's at ocean floor explorer.org, but I'll put the link so that
44:45
people can, uh, get access to it.
44:47
Uh, and until next time, Tim, thank you so much for joining us.
44:50
Great.
44:50
Thanks Andrew.
44:51
Bye for now.
44:52
Thank you, Tim, for joining us on today's episode of the How
44:54
to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
44:55
It was great to be able to talk to you about Map the Gap, something
44:58
that is very important to me as well.
45:00
Obviously important to you and should be important to you, the audience member.
45:03
And I would love to hear what you thought about the interview, what
45:06
you think about Map the Gaps.
45:08
Is this something you'd be interested in participating in?
45:11
Whether you can volunteer your time or whether you can donate
45:15
a certain amount of money.
45:16
To maybe like sponsoring a piece of an ocean that needs to be mapped.
45:20
I would love to hear from you if you wanna DM me on Instagram at how to
45:24
Protect the Ocean, I would love to hear if you would be interested in doing that.
45:27
Or you can email me by going to speak up for blue.com/contact
45:32
and just fill out the form.
45:33
Email me.
45:34
I would love to hear from you, but other than that.
45:37
I would love for you to go to map the gaps.org.
45:39
I'll put the link in the show notes to check out what MAP the gaps is all about.
45:43
And I would also like for you to go register for the Map the Gaps Symposium.
45:47
If you go to map the gaps.org/symposium, you can click the registration
45:52
button and you'll register there.
45:53
Again, I will click that in the show notes or in the description below, depending on
45:57
how you are watching or listening to this.
45:59
But other than that, thank you again to Tim for joining us.
46:01
We'll have him back on because I wanna talk more about Matthew gaps
46:04
and why it's important to discuss.
46:06
And link to the ocean bottom and making sure that we are mapping the ocean bottom.
46:11
I'm looking forward to having him back.
46:12
But in that, I wanna thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of
46:15
the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
46:17
I'm your host, Angela, one from the true nor strong and free.
46:20
Have a great day.
46:20
We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.