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NANCY GUTHRIE KIDNAP HOAX? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: The Nancy Guthrie kidnap a hoax? What does this revelation
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Speaker 1: totally torpedo the investigation as it stands tonight? Is this
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Speaker 1: even true? Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
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Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us. A
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Speaker 1: photo or video of Nancy Guffrie with her kidnapper.
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Speaker 2: We know that Harvey got another letter at TMZ and
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Speaker 2: Harvey is definitely taking it seriously.
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Speaker 1: So Nancy, I don't trust a thing. What do we
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Speaker 1: know tonight? Is this real? First of all, what does
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Speaker 1: cash Patel have to say?
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Speaker 3: Reuters is reporting that the ransom notes that were sent
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Speaker 3: regarding Nancy Guthrie's to disappearance are fake or you able
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Speaker 3: to confirm that those have been determined to be fake.
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Speaker 4: I'm not going to comment on that. We are continuing
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Speaker 4: to assist that investigation. We've always been in an assist role.
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Speaker 4: It's a state matter being led by the state authorities.
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Speaker 5: Thank you.
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Speaker 1: Uh uh no, no, no, that's what our friends at CSPAN.
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Speaker 1: I want to see that again. Guys, this is the
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Speaker 1: director of the FBI, and I've been with him walk
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Speaker 1: step until right now. Okay, I'm no body language expert.
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Speaker 1: But I want you to look at Cash Patel.
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Speaker 3: Reuters is reporting that the ransom notes that were sent
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Speaker 3: regarding Nancy Guthrie's disappearance are fake. Are you able to
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Speaker 3: confirm that those have been determined.
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Speaker 6: To be fake.
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Speaker 4: I'm not going to comment on that. We are continuing
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Speaker 4: to assist that investigation. We've always been in an assist role.
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Speaker 4: It's a state matter being led by the state authorities.
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Speaker 7: Thank you.
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Speaker 1: He looks from side to side, he blinks, and then
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Speaker 1: he walks off the podium, steps away and walks off
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Speaker 1: the podium and dodges the question. In the last hours,
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Speaker 1: a bombshell claims that the ransom notes, the ransom notes
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Speaker 1: are all a hoax. Then why at the get go
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Speaker 1: was Savannah told they were legitimate? Okay, you've got cash
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Speaker 1: Patil stating that, hey, hey, hey, I'm not touching that
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Speaker 1: hot potato, don't throw it at me. The state's in
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Speaker 1: charge of that. I E. Nanos. But this is what
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Speaker 1: Nanos says. I think there's been a lot of talk
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Speaker 1: about ransom notes.
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Speaker 8: We're looking at into that, and those are notes that
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Speaker 8: we've been pretty consistent.
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Speaker 9: You know, you divvy up the work, right.
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Speaker 8: We took the DNA.
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Speaker 10: We gave the ransom notes to the FBI.
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Speaker 1: Ransom note, ransom note, hot potato cash that said, that's
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Speaker 1: from our friends at KOLD. So Patel says, it's a
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Speaker 1: state matter, and that would be Nanos. Nanos says, Oh,
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Speaker 1: we gave all that to the FEDS. Talk about a
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Speaker 1: hot potato. Uh huh, Now, who can we trust? Is
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Speaker 1: this real? Let's hear what Savannah says.
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Speaker 6: The two notes that we received that we responded to.
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Speaker 6: I tend to believe those surveal.
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Speaker 1: That from our friends. Oh here it comes, got it?
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Speaker 1: Who's telling the truth? Are they just throwing it back
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Speaker 1: and forth and back and forth? Betel says Nanos Nano
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Speaker 1: says Patel straight out. To the experts joining us, and
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Speaker 1: what a lineup we've got tonight. I don't quite understand
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Speaker 1: what's happening. But to doctor Jim Jones joining us out
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Speaker 1: of Herndon, Virginia. He is a cybersecurity digital forensics expert.
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Speaker 1: He is a digital forensics program director, Associate professor at
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Speaker 1: George Mason University. Your expertise is digital, but you have
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Speaker 1: putten many, many witnesses under questioning. What do you make
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Speaker 1: of this? Pointing the finger. I mean, that's who we
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Speaker 1: look up to for leadership, that would be cash Ptel,
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Speaker 1: and I've agreed with him all along the way. But
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Speaker 1: he is dodging, dodging.
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Speaker 10: Yeah, I'm assuming that their technical experts are tackling this
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Speaker 10: probably on both sides. The FBI is most likely better
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Speaker 10: equipped to do the technical analysis, so I expect that's
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Speaker 10: what's happening. The director just may not be aware of
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Speaker 10: what the technical people are up to.
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Speaker 1: Oh wait a minute, Wait a minute, doctor Jim Jones,
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Speaker 1: you mean the right hand doesn't know what the left
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Speaker 1: hand is doing. Yeah, I'm not buying that. This is
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Speaker 1: a total dodge. Straight out to Michael Harrigan joining US
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Speaker 1: former FBI agent twenty two years you were with the fan.
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Speaker 1: He's dodging. Why is he dodging?
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Speaker 11: Well, I think in these cases, you know, when I
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Speaker 11: ran the VISCAP program at Quantico, we specialize in long
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Speaker 11: term missing person cases, and there's a lot of technicalities
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Speaker 11: that go into these cases, and the crisis communication necessary
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Speaker 11: in these matters are complex because you have two sides here.
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Speaker 11: One you have the need to get Miscut three back
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Speaker 11: to recover her, identify the kidnappers, but the other side
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Speaker 11: of it is the if the are hoax notes is
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Speaker 11: the investigative goal of identifying those hoax drafters and holding
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Speaker 11: them accountable. So it can seem somewhat disjointed through the
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Speaker 11: media on these cases, but it's it's a very well
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Speaker 11: orchestrated and careful strategy to communicate this, and the director
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Speaker 11: and the sheriff himself aren't the best persons to comment
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Speaker 11: on the direction and that of the case. You have
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Speaker 11: to have trained communicators out there, and there's some pitfalls here.
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Speaker 1: Okay, I'm sorry, am I actually who has killed Michael
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Speaker 1: Harrigan and is wearing his skin? Because when you're telling me,
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Speaker 1: the director of the FBI and the Pema County sheriff
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Speaker 1: should not be the ones communicating evidence on a case. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: I'm calling foul, total foul. That's BS. Now. Wait, you're
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Speaker 1: not still working for the FBI, are you? Okay, yeah, no,
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Speaker 1: you're not. Don't cover. I don't care who they are.
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Speaker 1: This I think is either a grave mistake at the
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Speaker 1: get go by telling Savannah these were legitimate or this
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Speaker 1: is a ploy. A ploy. Now, let's think this through.
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Speaker 1: Why could it possibly be a ploy? Why did they
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Speaker 1: tell us at the beginning that two of the ransom
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Speaker 1: notes were real. And now they're saying, yeah, no, no
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Speaker 1: erase erase, Jurassic erase. I didn't say that. Who said that?
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Speaker 1: It's his duty? No, it's their duty. And by the way,
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Speaker 1: straight out to Sidney Sylvanni joining US Crime Stories investigative reporter.
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Speaker 1: This has unleashed a torrent, a torrent of hate onto
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Speaker 1: the Guthrie family because when authorities come out and say, yeah,
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Speaker 1: those ransom notes, we told you that we're legit and
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Speaker 1: we've been investigating a kidnap all this time. Yeah, forget that.
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Speaker 1: That's not true. Now the world, not me, others are asking, well,
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Speaker 1: wait a minute. If there was sensitive information, Sidney Sylvanni
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Speaker 1: in those ransom notes, who would have known that the
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Speaker 1: Apple watch was reportedly at the foot of the bed
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Speaker 1: on the floor. Who would have known what pajamas Missus
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Speaker 1: Guthrie was wearing that night. Who would have known the
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Speaker 1: floor blood light was askew and not working? Who would
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Speaker 1: have known all that? Well, somebody in the home i e.
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Speaker 1: Blaming the family? Was nobody thinking when they dropped this, Bob,
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Speaker 1: let's just say the proverbial turd in the punch bowl?
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Speaker 1: Did they not think about what was going to happen
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Speaker 1: to the Guthrie family when they did this, Explain to
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Speaker 1: me what's happening.
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Speaker 12: So we had this report from Reuters claiming their FBI
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Speaker 12: sources told them that all of these letters are completely fake,
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Speaker 12: that the FBI had ruled these out completely and are
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Speaker 12: not considering the possibility that these were real anymore. They
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Speaker 12: have been completely dismissed, and like you said, that's been
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Speaker 12: disastrous for the Guthrie family. Now people are questioning why
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Speaker 12: did they pay them any money at all?
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Speaker 1: Why did they tickle this wire? Why did they entertain
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Speaker 1: these guys? This is at least a torrent of hate
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Speaker 1: on the Guthrie family. All along claims against them have
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Speaker 1: been that the son in law, Nancy Guthrie's son in
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Speaker 1: law was the last one to see her alive that
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Speaker 1: we know of, that he took her home, He drove
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Speaker 1: her home after a family dinner at his and daughter
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Speaker 1: Annie's home. From that, it has been extrapolated that they
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Speaker 1: are responsible for Missus Guthrie's kidnap. Now stating that the
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Speaker 1: ransom notes are fake feeds into that claim back to
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Speaker 1: Michael Harrigan joining us. Michael, do you see where I'm
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Speaker 1: going with this.
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Speaker 11: Yeah, I do, Nancy. I think there's some good questions here.
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Speaker 11: I think you're raising legitimate questions about the communication and
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Speaker 11: the information out there. And I think we have to
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Speaker 11: remember that, you know, in these cases, the crush on
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Speaker 11: the victims in this case, Missus Guthrie is incredible. The
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Speaker 11: family is pulled this way and that way by all
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Speaker 11: these this information coming out, and you know, there has
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Speaker 11: been a mixed communication. But behind the scenes, I mean
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Speaker 11: the investigators. When you look at what the investigators are doing,
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Speaker 11: sometimes there's good reason to put out conflicting information because
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Speaker 11: of suspect identification and tactics they use to maybe get
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Speaker 11: a suspect to make a move or to spur further communication.
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Speaker 1: Okay, could you explain what you're saying and regular people talk, Okay.
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Speaker 11: What happens is the tactics that law enforcement use here, right,
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Speaker 11: there's information they release everything in a case like this
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Speaker 11: that law enforcement releases, whether it's saying a note is real,
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Speaker 11: whether it's fake. There's a tactic behind the scenes in that.
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Speaker 11: And in a kidnapping case where life hangs in the
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Speaker 11: balance like this one, you have to move quick at
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Speaker 11: the beginning you don't have the luxury of vetting everything
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Speaker 11: down to the very minutia validating everything, So you have
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Speaker 11: to move on notes early in a case is if
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Speaker 11: it's actually valid. You have to do that because again,
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Speaker 11: life hangs in the balance. But as time goes on
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Speaker 11: and you're able to use technical resources, investigative techniques to
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Speaker 11: dial down and find out that a note, okay, now
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Speaker 11: it's not legitimate. And you find that out, well, then
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Speaker 11: you can put out that it's not legitimate. So you know,
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Speaker 11: it's just a natural investigative process. It's much different than
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Speaker 11: other crimes. When you have somebody who potentially is alive,
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Speaker 11: you have to move quick. You don't move quick enough,
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Speaker 11: you get criticized for holding stuff back. You move too quick.
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Speaker 11: Sometimes invalid information gets out there. But it's a balance
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Speaker 11: because you really need to get this unfortunate victim back alive.
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Speaker 2: We have told you before that we had as many
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Speaker 2: as five FBI agents on phone calls at the same
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Speaker 2: time with our IT team trying to find out who
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Speaker 2: sent these ransom notes or these alleged ransom notes, and
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Speaker 2: they have not been able to do that.
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Speaker 1: You look at the first.
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Speaker 2: Note where they make that demand of four million dollars
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Speaker 2: and then the second if you then they say, if
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Speaker 2: you don't meet the deadline, it goes to six million,
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Speaker 2: and if you don't pay the six million by the deadline,
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Speaker 2: we will kill Nancy Guthrie. And then the second note
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Speaker 2: that the Tucson Station received, we didn't. They don't ask
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Speaker 2: for any money. They just inform Savannah Guthrie and her
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Speaker 2: family that Nancy had died. And that seems to be
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Speaker 2: why Savannah came out almost the next day and said, look,
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Speaker 2: we will pay you money to know where our mother is,
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Speaker 2: in other words, to bring her body back. And it
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Speaker 2: now kind of makes sense. The reason she said that
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Speaker 2: is because that second letter did not ask for any money.
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Speaker 1: That from our fan of Harvey Levin at TMZ straight
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Speaker 1: back to doctor Jim Jones and Michael Harrigan. First to you, Harrigan,
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Speaker 1: if this is a ploy by the Feds, after all
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Speaker 1: this time of telling us and Savannah that the first
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Speaker 1: two notes were real, not the notes the emails the
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Speaker 1: missives later sent claiming I know who did it. I
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Speaker 1: know who did it. I can send a picture. I've
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Speaker 1: got it on a cell phone. Give me a bitcoin,
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Speaker 1: Give me a bitcoin. Not those we're talking about the
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Speaker 1: first two notes, those from the alleged kidnapper, not the hyena,
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Speaker 1: the parasite, the vulture, the tics sucking the blood of
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Speaker 1: the Gothrie family, claiming I can tell I can take
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Speaker 1: you to Nancy, I can give you a picture. Not them.
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Speaker 1: We've been told all along these first two notes were
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Speaker 1: real by the FBI. Now suddenly midstream they turn course,
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Speaker 1: I'm not buying it because I don't think Harrigan, they
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Speaker 1: would have intimated they were real. If they didn't believe
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Speaker 1: they were real, they would have said nothing. You know,
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Speaker 1: the Feds, you were a Fed for twenty two years.
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Speaker 1: I was a Fed. They would never go out on
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Speaker 1: a limb and let Savannah say, I think the first
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Speaker 1: two were real. If they didn't think that, so is
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Speaker 1: this a ploy on their part? And if so, what
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Speaker 1: type of ploy?
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Speaker 11: Well, it very well could be. I mean, in these
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Speaker 11: kidnapping cases, tactics are very important in communication, in what
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Speaker 11: you release, and there's always a purpose for every statement
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Speaker 11: that's made officially, not from unnamed sources, but from official releases.
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Speaker 11: There's always a ploy. There's always a tactic, and unfortunately,
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Speaker 11: unless you can see down into the case file, and
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Speaker 11: you're actually have first hand knowledge. You don't know what
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Speaker 11: that is. But again, you know, the investigators are walking
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Speaker 11: a fine line here because they have to try to
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Speaker 11: get her back, and so this could be a way
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Speaker 11: to maybe get the kidnapper or whoever wrote that note
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Speaker 11: to reach out a second third time now because maybe
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Speaker 11: they haven't been able to identify it. But then on
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Speaker 11: the other side, they may know very well who sent
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Speaker 11: these notes, and it could be advanced investigative techniques trying
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Speaker 11: to gather enough evidence to making a rest in a
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Speaker 11: prosecution here.
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Speaker 1: So but how would coming out? I mean, I hear you,
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Speaker 1: Michael to doctor Jim Jones joining us. He is Professor
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Speaker 1: George Mason University. That's not shabby, cybersecurity digital forensics expert,
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Speaker 1: Digital Forensics program director, Doctor Jim Jones. You've seen law
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Speaker 1: enforcement for enough years to know that ploys happen. Okay,
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Speaker 1: here's a simple one, a very simple ploy, and it's
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Speaker 1: completely constitutional. Suddenly, a known felon on the LAMB gets
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Speaker 1: a notice he's won a TV at some Thanksgiving sweepstake.
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Speaker 1: He shows up and there are a lot of other
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Speaker 1: guys there that have one things. Guess what it's a lot.
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Speaker 1: It's a ploy. They're all fugitives and they all get arrested.
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Speaker 1: Nobody's getting a new TV. Okay, they just fell for it.
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Speaker 1: It's a ploy. Here's another ploy. I would attribute this
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Speaker 1: to the defense team in the Charlie Kirk assassination. The
16:19
Speaker 1: Tyler Robinson defense team put it out there that the
16:22
Speaker 1: bullets don't match Tyler Robinson's gun. What because the prosecution
16:29
Speaker 1: is built on that right. Well, as it turns out
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Speaker 1: that's not true. It was a ploy. A ploy what
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Speaker 1: they hope to achieve. Don't know that yet, maybe taint
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Speaker 1: the jury. I don't know or care. It was a ploy.
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Speaker 1: So think think, think ye, doctor Jim Jones. How could
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Speaker 1: putting it out there that these ransom notes which they
16:53
Speaker 1: said were true are no longer true? How does that
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Speaker 1: help me catch what I believe to be Nancy Guthries
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Speaker 1: kidnapper and killer.
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Speaker 10: Sure, it may go the killer of the kidnapper into
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Speaker 10: sending more emails. And so the technical analysis is going
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Speaker 10: to go back to a device, possibly even a physical location,
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Speaker 10: maybe a library, computer, a specific home or apartment. And
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Speaker 10: so if they have that trace back that far, and
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Speaker 10: then they go the sender into sending another message. They've
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Speaker 10: installed additional monitoring at that location and are more likely
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Speaker 10: to catch the perpetrator coming in.
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Speaker 1: Okay, that's a little brilliant. Could you break that down
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Speaker 1: and regular people talk? Okay, if I had to pitch
17:43
Speaker 1: on the stand, we would work on that so you
17:46
Speaker 1: could say it really slowly and succinctly. Now, let me
17:52
Speaker 1: go with you one more time. How does putting a
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Speaker 1: big fat lie out there, if it is in fact
17:58
Speaker 1: a lie, help me catch the killer? And yes, I
18:02
Speaker 1: know many people believe that missus Guthrie died accidentally in
18:07
Speaker 1: the middle of a kidnap. That's felony murder. I will
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Speaker 1: say no more. How am I going to find him
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Speaker 1: or them? Because of this ploy by the FBI with
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Speaker 1: nanos trailing along.
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Speaker 10: Sure, the investigators want the perpetrators to continue to communicate.
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Speaker 10: That's their only chance to catch a break and trace
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Speaker 10: it back to an individual. So every email message has
18:32
Speaker 10: essentially an envelope with it that says where it came
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Speaker 10: from and the systems it went through. That's the easy
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Speaker 10: technical part that gets you back to a computer or
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Speaker 10: a geographic region. Now you can monitor that location more closely,
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Speaker 10: hope that the attacker is going to come back send
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Speaker 10: another message the same way. And the first two messages
18:53
Speaker 10: came from the same IP address. That's a device identifier
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Speaker 10: to a certain degree. So there's some reasonable expectation that
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Speaker 10: the attacker could use the same communication method. But now
19:06
Speaker 10: law enforcement is watching more closely.
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Speaker 9: Mm hmm.
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Speaker 1: Okay, now it's sinking in. Doctor Jim Jones, Okay, you
19:15
Speaker 1: said the same IP address Internet provider address, and there's
19:18
Speaker 1: been a lot of confusion about that. Levin. Harvey Levin,
19:23
Speaker 1: our friend at TMZ accurately stated that all the notes
19:27
Speaker 1: came from the IP address. But all the notes regarding
19:32
Speaker 1: the jackals, the tics, the parasites, they all came from
19:36
Speaker 1: the same address. Not the first to rantsome notes. Those
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Speaker 1: are two different IP addresses. But you're right. Karen Stark
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Speaker 1: joining me, forensic psychologist, renowned TV and radio trauma expert,
19:51
Speaker 1: consultant at Karenstark dot com. That's Karen with the c Karen,
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Speaker 1: you've been in this world for a long time analyzing
20:00
Speaker 1: what you see. You just saw Savannah Guthrie, Hey control them.
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Speaker 1: Could you play her on mute and watch you know what?
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Speaker 1: Forget it? Play play it? Where she says I believe
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Speaker 1: those two notes were credible. Watch is, Karen. I can't
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Speaker 1: wait to see what you're gonna say.
20:18
Speaker 6: The two notes that we received that we responded to.
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Speaker 6: I tend to believe those surveal from.
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Speaker 1: My friends at the Today Show, Karen, I believe Savannah Okay,
20:34
Speaker 1: we worked together at Court TV when she was first
20:37
Speaker 1: starting out and Legal Analysis. She's a trained lawyer. She
20:43
Speaker 1: did not just follo off the tournament trup. She's very smart.
20:46
Speaker 1: I would like to point out genuine. Because of that,
20:51
Speaker 1: I believe two things. One, if somebody and her family
20:57
Speaker 1: were involved, she would not be draping her arm around
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Speaker 1: them visiting a memorial site. She would have sought justice
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Speaker 1: and vengeance would have been reaped long ago number one.
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Speaker 1: Number Two, when she said I think too were legitimate,
21:13
Speaker 1: did you notice she paused, looked off, came back instead.
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Speaker 1: I think they were real. I don't think Savandam would
21:23
Speaker 1: look at the camera and lie, I really don't.
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Speaker 13: I don't think so ey the Nancy.
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Speaker 5: I think that she really did believe that they were real,
21:34
Speaker 5: and certainly she was encouraged to believe that.
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Speaker 13: You have to think of something.
21:39
Speaker 5: When you're in that situation, you want hope. You want
21:43
Speaker 5: to believe that your mother is alive. So what I
21:46
Speaker 5: see as a daughter who is desperately hoping that this
21:50
Speaker 5: is true and her mother is alive, and why not
21:52
Speaker 5: believe that and continue that hope. I also really agree
21:57
Speaker 5: with the whole fact of the ploy of trying to
22:00
Speaker 5: get somebody to actually come forward write some more. If
22:05
Speaker 5: we think about all the cases we went through Nancy
22:07
Speaker 5: where serial killers were writing, and when the newspapers or
22:12
Speaker 5: wherever they were sending their letters were not covering them,
22:16
Speaker 5: they would get more upset and they would actually write
22:20
Speaker 5: more because they need the attention. They're narcissists, and so
22:24
Speaker 5: that could actually be what they're doing right now. They're
22:28
Speaker 5: trying to actually bait the person to keep ongoing and
22:32
Speaker 5: writing somewhere so they can either trace it or already
22:37
Speaker 5: they might know, and they want to see where the
22:39
Speaker 5: person goes. But I definitely think that's.
22:42
Speaker 1: Employ Michael Harrigan. There were problems with the ransom notes
22:49
Speaker 1: at the Get Go number one and doctor Jim Jones
22:53
Speaker 1: plays jump in, I'm just hearing in my ear. We're
22:58
Speaker 1: going to be joined by doctor Kendall, Crime Chief Medical Examiner.
23:01
Speaker 1: Hold on before I go to doctor Kendall Crown's Michael,
23:06
Speaker 1: I want to talk about the problems with the ransom
23:08
Speaker 1: notes at the get go. Every time I have ever
23:11
Speaker 1: analyzed or investigated a ransom note, it was immediate. Somebody's taken.
23:18
Speaker 1: You get a ransom immediately, they want the money. They
23:20
Speaker 1: don't want to curt the person around like a grocery
23:22
Speaker 1: card at Kroger, much less than eighty four year old
23:25
Speaker 1: woman with health problems. They want the money and they
23:27
Speaker 1: want to either return her or kill her and be gone.
23:31
Speaker 1: But there was day's days delay before we get the
23:34
Speaker 1: first ransom note. That was the first problem. Then they
23:38
Speaker 1: didn't give proof of life. Second problem. You want millions
23:43
Speaker 1: of dollars, you better give me proof of life. We've
23:46
Speaker 1: also been told not verified. Savannah and her family wanted
23:50
Speaker 1: to pay the ransom, or at least negotiate to pay
23:53
Speaker 1: the ransom, but they were advised not to. Okay, where
23:59
Speaker 1: am I going with this? The fact that there were
24:03
Speaker 1: problems with the ransom notes to start with can mean
24:06
Speaker 1: one of two things. In my mind, One, they weren't real,
24:11
Speaker 1: but Savannah said they were, so that's not right. Second choice,
24:16
Speaker 1: Missus Guthrie immediately upon kidnapping passed away, so they could
24:21
Speaker 1: not give proof of life, and they were trying to
24:24
Speaker 1: get the money while they figured out what to do.
24:27
Speaker 1: That's the second alternative. Do you have a better idea?
24:33
Speaker 11: No, I think dansay. I think you hit the nail
24:34
Speaker 11: on the head there. There's a lot of possibilities here,
24:38
Speaker 11: and I think when the notes first came in, because
24:41
Speaker 11: of the time and the potential of her life being
24:44
Speaker 11: in grave danger at that moment, I think they have
24:46
Speaker 11: to proceed fast and they have to consider as if
24:49
Speaker 11: it's real. But as the investigation goes on they get
24:52
Speaker 11: more information, they're able to vet it out and show
24:54
Speaker 11: that it isn't real. So I think you're absolutely correct
24:58
Speaker 11: that there's some problems, and I think the most glaring
25:01
Speaker 11: one was the fact that why wouldn't they provide a
25:04
Speaker 11: proof of life? That's critical because you want to get
25:07
Speaker 11: that money. If you don't, you don't provide proof of life,
25:10
Speaker 11: you're not going to get any money really when it
25:12
Speaker 11: comes down to these cases. But the other side is
25:14
Speaker 11: investigators may very well know that she is deceased. Maybe
25:17
Speaker 11: there was information at the scene to show that she
25:21
Speaker 11: likely is deceased, so there was no way for the
25:24
Speaker 11: kidnappers to provide proof of life. But then it moves
25:26
Speaker 11: into the second phase, which is the need of the
25:28
Speaker 11: family to get closure. So maybe providing some information that
25:32
Speaker 11: that only the kidnapper would know, some maybe a picture
25:35
Speaker 11: of her clothing, even of her body or part of
25:39
Speaker 11: something she was carrying, would would would help them get
25:41
Speaker 11: the money. They would have some leverage there over the
25:44
Speaker 11: return of the body.
25:45
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm with you. I'm with you, and I'll tell
25:49
Speaker 1: you why. I think they realized very quickly that Missus
25:54
Speaker 1: Guthrie may have passed on because of another their instaf
26:01
Speaker 1: that Savannah put out there. I want you to hear this.
26:04
Speaker 7: Listen, we received your message and we understand. We beg
26:11
Speaker 7: you now to return our mother to us so that
26:15
Speaker 7: we can celebrate with her. This is the only way
26:18
Speaker 7: we will have peace.
26:20
Speaker 6: This is very valuable to us, and we will.
26:24
Speaker 1: Pay to Karen Stark, forensic psychologist. Do you hear the
26:29
Speaker 1: buzzwords Savannah used right there? This is valuable to us
26:35
Speaker 1: Missus Guthrie's body. We want to celebrate with her as
26:40
Speaker 1: in celebration of life, it's never too late to do
26:47
Speaker 1: the right thing. In other words, even if my mom
26:51
Speaker 1: is dead. We understand that my mom is dead. All
26:58
Speaker 1: of those things and more suggests to me that she
27:03
Speaker 1: is responding to the second note that reveals Missus Guthrie
27:10
Speaker 1: has passed on.
27:13
Speaker 5: I would agree completely, Nancy, because there are so many clues,
27:17
Speaker 5: like you said, where she's no longer saying, you know,
27:21
Speaker 5: bring her back, Aliah, we want her, we want she's
27:24
Speaker 5: actually saying very subtly that she's dead and we would
27:30
Speaker 5: still like to have her, and we will do whatever
27:32
Speaker 5: it takes. And in some ways, if you look at
27:37
Speaker 5: everything that unfolded to me, she died very quickly.
27:42
Speaker 13: I mean because she actually needed her pacemaker. I think
27:46
Speaker 13: it was her cane and her pacemaker went off. So
27:51
Speaker 13: how long could she possibly have lived. Whether that was
27:54
Speaker 13: intentional accidental, it seems accidental, but I do think they knew,
27:59
Speaker 13: and I think she did die immediately.
28:02
Speaker 1: I want to make sure I understand the facts and
28:04
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, Sydney jump In. The pacemaker did not
28:09
Speaker 1: necessarily turn off. It got disconnected from WiFi, so we
28:15
Speaker 1: know she was at home. Many people online, a lot
28:18
Speaker 1: of hateful trolls, say she never made it home that night.
28:22
Speaker 1: The daughter's lying she did make it home that night,
28:24
Speaker 1: because her pacemaker connects to the Wi Fi in the home,
28:31
Speaker 1: so we know she's there. We also know that her
28:35
Speaker 1: pacemaker spikes heartbeat spikes around two a m. Then shortly
28:41
Speaker 1: after that it's disconnected from WiFi. In other words, she's
28:44
Speaker 1: taken out of the home, so we know she was there.
28:47
Speaker 1: So everybody claiming the family just got rid of her
28:50
Speaker 1: right there at the supper table and never brought her home,
28:53
Speaker 1: that's not true. She did come home, that said Jones,
29:00
Speaker 1: cybersecurity digital forensics expert, Professor George Mason, University Digital Forensics
29:07
Speaker 1: Program Director. You've got cash Betel, you've got a fleet
29:14
Speaker 1: of it troubleshooters. Why can't we catch him? And how
29:20
Speaker 1: can we catch him?
29:22
Speaker 11: Yeah?
29:22
Speaker 10: Good question. The technical analysis is going to take us
29:26
Speaker 10: back to again a device or a location, and depending
29:30
Speaker 10: on the sophistication of the sender, that data is then
29:34
Speaker 10: held by a provider, and so law enforcement has to
29:37
Speaker 10: get legal authority to get that data, which leads them
29:41
Speaker 10: to another commercial provider. They have to get legal authority,
29:44
Speaker 10: they get that and so on, and so AA needs
29:47
Speaker 10: to be leads to C which I assume is what
29:50
Speaker 10: they've been doing. You know, for the last five months
29:52
Speaker 10: is walking this back, and that takes time. If the
29:56
Speaker 10: attacker is sophisticated, he has taken some measure to obfuskate
30:01
Speaker 10: his original location. And so now they're into the we
30:06
Speaker 10: have run all the technical leads to their end. How
30:09
Speaker 10: do we negotiate? How do we manage a ploy that's
30:14
Speaker 10: going to cause the attacker to continue to communicate so
30:17
Speaker 10: that we might get a break. They're really trying to
30:20
Speaker 10: connect the dots and put together this vast sea of information,
30:24
Speaker 10: and somewhere in there are the threads that could let
30:27
Speaker 10: them narrow down the suspect pool.
30:29
Speaker 1: Doctor Jim Jones, once again, you just said something brilliant.
30:33
Speaker 1: Ran out of technical leads. In other words, they have
30:36
Speaker 1: not identified the author the center of those first two
30:40
Speaker 1: ransom notes. So now what can they do chase their tails?
30:45
Speaker 1: No a ploy, a ploy putting it out there that
30:49
Speaker 1: these notes were not real. Doctor Kendall Crown's joining me.
30:53
Speaker 1: Chief medical Examiner Terran County. That's Fort Worth, host of
30:58
Speaker 1: a hit Knee podcast, May in the Morgue. He is
31:01
Speaker 1: esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU,
31:06
Speaker 1: and I see he's joined by his co star Dr Bones.
31:12
Speaker 1: Doctor Kendel Crowns, thank you for being with us tonight,
31:15
Speaker 1: Dtor Crowns. If if one of the misses we're true
31:22
Speaker 1: that missus Guthrie is quote buried in nature, that's certainly
31:28
Speaker 1: putting it euphemistically. That means dumped in the desert or
31:31
Speaker 1: put in a shallow grave. How can we ever identify
31:37
Speaker 1: what is the most encouraging news about finding her body?
31:44
Speaker 1: How can we find her? And if we do find her,
31:48
Speaker 1: how can we identify her?
31:50
Speaker 9: Okay, well, we'll start with if the body is buried.
31:53
Speaker 9: If she is buried, it is Arizona. Arizona is a dry,
31:57
Speaker 9: arid environment. There's not a lot of humidity, so usually
32:01
Speaker 9: bodies in this environment they will decompose, but they will
32:05
Speaker 9: actually mummify. They dry out, the skin becomes hard and leathery,
32:10
Speaker 9: and the organs of course all decomposed as well, but
32:13
Speaker 9: they become like a mummy like you see in the
32:15
Speaker 9: Egyptian mummies, etc. If the body is found at that
32:19
Speaker 9: point and brought into a medical examiner's office, they can
32:22
Speaker 9: actually inject fluid into the fingers and expand the mummified
32:28
Speaker 9: tissue and then get fingerprints from that. The other thing,
32:32
Speaker 9: if she has dental records, they can use dental records
32:35
Speaker 9: as well to get her identification done. And in worst
32:39
Speaker 9: case scenarios of hands and teeth are gone, still strips
32:43
Speaker 9: of dried muscle can be taken and they can attempt
32:46
Speaker 9: to get DNA from it or from the bone marrow
32:50
Speaker 9: to send in for DNA comparison testing, so she can
32:54
Speaker 9: be identified, even if she's mummified. At this point, how
32:59
Speaker 9: she'll be found it could be difficult. Usually with mammified bodies,
33:03
Speaker 9: the scent kind of dissipates quite quickly, but cadaver dogs
33:06
Speaker 9: things of that nature can usually still find the body.
33:09
Speaker 9: So at this point, if you're dealing with a buried
33:12
Speaker 9: body or a decomposed body that's been dumped somewhere, someone's
33:16
Speaker 9: gonna eventually smell it or spot it and then they
33:20
Speaker 9: can be identified and Dodger Kendel Crowns.
33:23
Speaker 1: Can she not be identified by her pacemaker? I know
33:26
Speaker 1: my mom's has a serial number on it, like a
33:29
Speaker 1: VEN number on a car.
33:31
Speaker 9: That's correct, I forgot about the pacemaker. The pacemaker itself
33:34
Speaker 9: does have a serial number on it that can be
33:37
Speaker 9: then compared to medical records. And that is also a
33:39
Speaker 9: very easy way of identifying a body. Also, if she
33:43
Speaker 9: had any artificial hips or anything like that, they too
33:45
Speaker 9: will have serial numbers on them.
33:47
Speaker 1: Back to Sidney Silvanni Crime Stories investigative reporter, Now, I
33:53
Speaker 1: understand the FBI is walking it all back. Maybe they
33:57
Speaker 1: are real. Are you kidding me? No, that is exactly
34:01
Speaker 1: what happened.
34:02
Speaker 12: We got this report that said the FBI is not
34:05
Speaker 12: considering any of the original three notes as real.
34:10
Speaker 1: And then TMZ a few hours.
34:13
Speaker 12: Later came back and said, wait a minute, our FBI
34:16
Speaker 12: sources are saying that's not the truth.
34:19
Speaker 1: That's not the case.
34:20
Speaker 12: They're still trying to determine whether or not these are
34:24
Speaker 12: for real. And the TMZ report did say, hey, we're
34:32
Speaker 12: with the FBI, but depending on who you talk to
34:36
Speaker 12: in the FBI, they might have a different opinion.
34:39
Speaker 11: So yes, some people may say, oh, we.
34:41
Speaker 12: Don't think those are real, but others are still giving
34:44
Speaker 12: it thought. But the investigation is continuing, so it's very confusing.
34:49
Speaker 1: We're getting a lot.
34:50
Speaker 12: Of mixed comments saying yes, it's real, No it's not real.
34:55
Speaker 1: We're still investigating. So it's very very muddy waters.
34:59
Speaker 2: It was almost like you know, these kidnappers were not
35:02
Speaker 2: banking on the fact that Nancy got through to die
35:04
Speaker 2: in their watch, freaked out, didn't ask for anything and
35:08
Speaker 2: just went underground. And she's saying no, no, no, we
35:10
Speaker 2: will pay you. But they have never to be heard
35:13
Speaker 2: from again. So that's kind of the bottom line to this,
35:20
Speaker 2: which is the official position of the FBI is those
35:25
Speaker 2: ransom notes are more likely than not real, but they
35:30
Speaker 2: still don't know, and they are still looking at those notes.
35:36
Speaker 2: We are told today that they are still pursuing those
35:40
Speaker 2: two notes, the two alleged ransom notes. They have not
35:45
Speaker 2: determined I want to repeat they're real, but they have
35:48
Speaker 2: definitely not determined that they're not, and they lean more
35:51
Speaker 2: toward legit than not Legitmate. Now, the official I talked
35:56
Speaker 2: to said, look, this is a big organize and there
36:01
Speaker 2: are multiple agents on this case, and if you talk
36:05
Speaker 2: to all of them, their opinions are going to vary,
36:09
Speaker 2: and so it depends on who you talk to. And
36:14
Speaker 2: that seems real enough that not everybody would agree. But
36:19
Speaker 2: the official position of the FBI is they have not
36:23
Speaker 2: discounted these two ransom notes. The official in the FBI
36:30
Speaker 2: who asked, I don't use this person's name said this,
36:35
Speaker 2: It is more likely than not that the two ransom
36:40
Speaker 2: notes are real, are real, Dear.
36:45
Speaker 1: Lord in Heaven, that's our friend, Harvey eleven over at
36:50
Speaker 1: teams And did you notice at the end he's looking down.
36:55
Speaker 1: Harvey Levin doesn't need a script, he doesn't need apron.
37:01
Speaker 1: I guarantee you what he was doing was reading the
37:04
Speaker 1: exact words from his FBI source. Exact words quote. It
37:11
Speaker 1: is more likely than not that the two ransom notes
37:15
Speaker 1: are real, are real. So all of this drama, all
37:23
Speaker 1: of the hate raining down on the family when it's
37:29
Speaker 1: put out there that the notes are not real, including Nanos,
37:33
Speaker 1: who should keep his piehole shut at all times, claiming
37:39
Speaker 1: the notes aren't real. So who sent them? Somebody that
37:44
Speaker 1: knew her Apple watch was we've been told on the
37:47
Speaker 1: floor at the foot of the bed. Somebody that knew
37:51
Speaker 1: how to describe Missus Guthrie's pajamas, specifically, someone that knew
37:55
Speaker 1: quote sensitive details about her home and the scene. Someone
38:00
Speaker 1: that knew about the light being askew or malfunctioning. Who
38:05
Speaker 1: would know that the family when they first got to
38:09
Speaker 1: the home. So now a torrent of hate, as I'm describing,
38:14
Speaker 1: has been unleashed on the family and we circle right
38:18
Speaker 1: back to where we were. If Harvey is to be believed,
38:21
Speaker 1: and I do believe him that the notes are real. Okay,
38:25
Speaker 1: thanks straight out to another special guest joining us now
38:31
Speaker 1: in the last moments. Brian Thrasher is with US, Vice
38:34
Speaker 1: President of the United Cajun Navy. He is out in
38:39
Speaker 1: the field. Brian, Thank you for being with us now.
38:42
Speaker 1: Nanos is under attack again. It just never ends, does it.
38:48
Speaker 1: For disallowing the United Cajun Navy to come on the
38:53
Speaker 1: scene and help at the get go? What exactly happened, Brian, Well.
39:00
Speaker 8: Thanks for having me back, Nancy, And you know, yeah,
39:02
Speaker 8: early on, we had sent our incident commander out there
39:06
Speaker 8: just to kind of, you know, do an assessment, see
39:08
Speaker 8: if there was anything we could do to add to
39:10
Speaker 8: the search. Initially, the Sheriff's office, the communication we had
39:15
Speaker 8: with them was that they were not accepting third party help.
39:20
Speaker 8: We decided to go ahead and put a full plan
39:23
Speaker 8: in writing together to submit to them just to let
39:26
Speaker 8: them know that, you know, we did have some professional
39:29
Speaker 8: resources and capabilities to add to the mix should they
39:33
Speaker 8: need it, and submitted it back and they basically just
39:36
Speaker 8: reiterated that they were not accepting help from outside agency,
39:40
Speaker 8: so we just stood down and went back to other operations.
39:44
Speaker 1: Brian, you have done this for a long time, and
39:46
Speaker 1: you've had a lot of success with the United Cajun
39:49
Speaker 1: Navy as well. How important is it to have as
39:54
Speaker 1: many boots on the ground in the first hours after
39:58
Speaker 1: a kidnapping? Why is it so important?
40:01
Speaker 8: Our Our opinion, Nancy, is that you know, anything we
40:05
Speaker 8: do can't hurt certainly, as long as we're not interfering
40:09
Speaker 8: in any sensitive areas, uh, you know, staying away from
40:12
Speaker 8: crime scenes anywhere were law enforcement strictly does not want us.
40:15
Speaker 8: We don't have to be, but we feel like extra
40:18
Speaker 8: sets of eyes and ears and hands and feet can
40:22
Speaker 8: can't hurt certainly, especially with our technical capabilities through you know,
40:26
Speaker 8: canine dogs, thermal drones, fixed wing aircraft. We have a lot,
40:31
Speaker 8: you know, for a civilian nonprofit, we have a pretty
40:35
Speaker 8: good track record of recovery and we're proud of that.
40:38
Speaker 8: And we just wanted to offer that force multiplier, but
40:42
Speaker 8: it was it was not requested and was turned down ultimately.
40:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, not just not requested it. You got a big
40:49
Speaker 1: fat n oh no, Brian, Trasher is with US Vice President,
40:53
Speaker 1: United Cajun Navy. Have you ever heard the children's nursing
40:56
Speaker 1: nursery rhyme? All the kings horses and all the King's
41:00
Speaker 1: men couldn't put Humpty together again? Have you ever heard that?
41:07
Speaker 8: I sure have.
41:10
Speaker 1: And the reason I say that is because you have
41:13
Speaker 1: a window, a very brief window, after a crime, a
41:17
Speaker 1: violent felony such as kidnapping Missus Guthrie, you have that
41:21
Speaker 1: short window to gather evidence before the crime scene is ruined,
41:27
Speaker 1: especially outside, but we saw it happen inside too. While
41:30
Speaker 1: Nanos stalled about bringing in the FEDS. You can't put
41:35
Speaker 1: it back together again, no matter how hard you try,
41:38
Speaker 1: It's impossible. The conditions change, the scene is compromised, if
41:43
Speaker 1: not contaminated, you can't put it back together again. When
41:47
Speaker 1: you were turned down, the United Cajun Navy was turned down,
41:55
Speaker 1: that scene is gone. You can't go back and fix
41:59
Speaker 1: it now, Brian.
42:01
Speaker 11: That's right, you know.
42:02
Speaker 8: And again, like we usually refrained from openly criticizing, you know,
42:08
Speaker 8: law enforcement, but based on reports that we heard about
42:11
Speaker 8: the way that crime scene was treated and the actions
42:14
Speaker 8: in the first few hours a few days, again we
42:18
Speaker 8: didn't we didn't think we could make anything worse that
42:20
Speaker 8: That was our opinion. But yeah, you're right, you get
42:23
Speaker 8: this far away from it, and I think they made
42:26
Speaker 8: some mistakes and you can't put the minor back in
42:29
Speaker 8: the horse just doesn't work that way.
42:33
Speaker 1: To Michael Harrigan joining US former FBI agent twenty two years.
42:40
Speaker 1: Also chief of the Firearms Training Program at Quantico, he
42:44
Speaker 1: led the FBI's violent criminal apprehension program via cap Okay
42:51
Speaker 1: that includes unidentified human remains, the discovery and recovery. Michael,
43:01
Speaker 1: you heard my humpty dumpty analogy. Agree or disagree, because
43:06
Speaker 1: while you're saying that, I want you to look at
43:08
Speaker 1: your monitor. Everybody and his little sister came into that
43:12
Speaker 1: crime scene. Pizza was delivered to the crime scene while
43:17
Speaker 1: Nanos was still in charge of it, while he refused
43:19
Speaker 1: to bring in the fence. I'm not just talking about
43:23
Speaker 1: the United Cagua Navy being turned down saying yeah, yeah,
43:27
Speaker 1: we're good. They were not good. The interior and the
43:32
Speaker 1: surrounding area of the terrain have now been compromised. The
43:35
Speaker 1: interior was compromised immediately on the screen, we're now showing
43:39
Speaker 1: you people going in and out, Journalists going right up
43:44
Speaker 1: to the front porch taking pictures of missus Guthrie's blood.
43:47
Speaker 1: I mean, no, it was ruined, Michael.
43:54
Speaker 11: Yeah. Absolutely, missteps were done forensically, procedurally, And I think
43:59
Speaker 11: that's what happens in these major cases. You come together quickly.
44:03
Speaker 11: It's got to be a multi agency approach on these things.
44:06
Speaker 11: You've got to leverage both your federal partners, your state,
44:08
Speaker 11: your local, everybody's got to work together as a team.
44:11
Speaker 11: And unfortunately, these things happened so quickly, and I think
44:15
Speaker 11: what's going to come out of this case, and I
44:16
Speaker 11: think what has to come out of this case is
44:20
Speaker 11: is lessons learned. How can we as law enforcement, not
44:24
Speaker 11: just that individual county sheriff's office and the FBI and
44:28
Speaker 11: other agencies involved, but how can other agencies across the
44:32
Speaker 11: country see what was done, see what was done right,
44:36
Speaker 11: validate processes, but also admit and own what was done
44:41
Speaker 11: wrong because improvements the key now going forward. It's all
44:45
Speaker 11: water under the bridge. You know, these things happen, whatever
44:48
Speaker 11: missteps were done, but the beauty here and the benefit
44:52
Speaker 11: will be identifying those missteps so other agencies can learn
44:55
Speaker 11: and do better next time. So absolutely I agree with you.
44:58
Speaker 11: Missteps are made, and I think in any case like
45:02
Speaker 11: this rapidly unfolding major case, there's gonna be misjudgments and missteps,
45:09
Speaker 11: especially when you have the benefit of the twenty twenty
45:12
Speaker 11: vision of hindsight. You will absolutely see me.
45:14
Speaker 1: Wow, they sure trained you at the FBI. They gave
45:17
Speaker 1: you a special class called putting perfume on the pig missteps.
45:22
Speaker 1: I just call it afting it up. But that said,
45:27
Speaker 1: I was analyzing Cash Battel, the director of the FBI,
45:30
Speaker 1: but I got a theory about why he's so evasive
45:34
Speaker 1: and why he said what he said. Watch it one
45:36
Speaker 1: more time.
45:37
Speaker 3: Reuters is reporting that the ransom notes that were sent
45:41
Speaker 3: regarding Nancy Guthrie's disappearance are fake. Are you able to
45:45
Speaker 3: confirm that those have been determined.
45:48
Speaker 10: To be fake.
45:49
Speaker 4: I'm not going to comment on that. We are continuing
45:51
Speaker 4: to assist that investigation. We've always been in an assist role.
45:54
Speaker 4: It's a state matter being led by the state authorities.
45:56
Speaker 13: Thank you.
45:59
Speaker 1: Save me, Savanna Crime Story's investigative reporter. I think he's
46:02
Speaker 1: mopping up somebody else's mess. That's from our friends at
46:05
Speaker 1: c SPAN, because before Patel was asked that question, Nanos
46:11
Speaker 1: had blurted out, I think on it some morning talk
46:16
Speaker 1: show that the notes just they weren't real. So then
46:20
Speaker 1: everybody goes to Patel to clean it up. Are they
46:23
Speaker 1: real or are they not real? And he dodged it.
46:28
Speaker 1: He doesn't want to trash Nanos and say Nanos is
46:30
Speaker 1: an idiot. He doesn't want to give away any more information.
46:34
Speaker 1: I suspect he was cleaning up after Nanos right there.
46:38
Speaker 12: He sounds very frustrated giving this no comment response, which
46:43
Speaker 12: I think goes back to I mean when we heard
46:47
Speaker 12: Patel saying how they were locked out of the investigation,
46:51
Speaker 12: and now we have Nanos claiming, oh, the ransom notes
46:55
Speaker 12: are the FBI's jurisdiction. We did eat up the work
46:58
Speaker 12: and the ransom notes are their job, and so for
47:01
Speaker 12: all of this media speculation to be going on, they're real,
47:05
Speaker 12: They're not real. They're still investigating. I think Hotel is
47:09
Speaker 12: very frustrated having to kind of clean this up and
47:13
Speaker 12: keep this quiet and keep the investigation as christine as possible.
47:18
Speaker 1: And you know what, Karen Stark, it doesn't matter that
47:23
Speaker 1: now they're saying, yeah, okay, we are still investigating those notes.
47:27
Speaker 1: They yeah, they are legitimate. Maybe they're legitimate. They're doing
47:30
Speaker 1: the backstroke, but that is not going to stop the
47:33
Speaker 1: haters that have heard what they want to hear. The
47:36
Speaker 1: notes are fake. The first two notes are fake. I e.
47:40
Speaker 1: Somebody intimately familiar with the scene and not a kidnapper
47:44
Speaker 1: wrote the notes. The hate on the family is not
47:48
Speaker 1: going to end.
47:52
Speaker 13: And we know that Nancy.
47:53
Speaker 5: This happens all the time with public figures. There are
47:57
Speaker 5: a group of people who are out to the victims,
48:01
Speaker 5: who want to believe that something happened, that there's some
48:06
Speaker 5: kind of cover up, that the family is involved, and
48:09
Speaker 5: they will look for any sign that the family has
48:14
Speaker 5: something to do with it, which is so wrong for
48:18
Speaker 5: the family. Think about what that's like to already be
48:21
Speaker 5: missing your mother, to have all this hope that you
48:26
Speaker 5: hope she's alive, then maybe she's not being confused, and
48:30
Speaker 5: you have people attacking you and saying that the truth
48:34
Speaker 5: is you're behind it and this is a great, big
48:37
Speaker 5: cover up.
48:38
Speaker 13: So I can't think of anything worse for that family.
48:43
Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything about Missus
48:46
Speaker 1: Guthrie's disappearance, please dial toll free eight hundred two two
48:50
Speaker 1: five five three two four there is a one point
48:52
Speaker 1: two plus million dollar reward on the table eight hundred
48:57
Speaker 1: two two five five three two four, or if you
49:00
Speaker 1: want to remain anonymous five two zero eight eight two
49:04
Speaker 1: seven four six three five two zero eight eight four
49:09
Speaker 1: seven four six three. We remember an American Hero Inspector
49:14
Speaker 1: Justin Lynz, New York City PD died as a result
49:19
Speaker 1: of the nine one one terrorist attacks after thirty years
49:23
Speaker 1: on the force, leaving behind wife Rita and daughter Aarin.
49:29
Speaker 1: American hero Inspector Justin Lynz. Thank you to our guests,
49:34
Speaker 1: but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Gray
49:37
Speaker 1: signing off for tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow night,
49:39
Speaker 1: and until then, good night friend,