Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #95 The Lord's Prayer: The Power of Forgiveness

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#95 The Lord's Prayer: The Power of Forgiveness · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, everyone, the Deep Grace Diving Podcast.
• 0:23
  I am Tim Wright,
• 0:24
  along with Terry Summers and John Burgess,
• 0:26
  and we have...
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Before we came on,
• 0:29
  we were spending time looking up on the Internet places about
• 0:34
  German bread and
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: sourdough bread.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of where we're at.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: We're still in the last podcast on bread.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: So we are going to move to the next part of the Lord's Prayer.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: And just a quick reminder,
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  the Lord's Prayer is a gift that Jesus gives to us to remind us
• 0:55
  of who God is.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: That this is a God that we can pray to, we can approach any time.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: This is a God who is a father.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: And the word, as we saw a few weeks ago, is Abba, meaning daddy.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's that kind of really intimate relationship.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is a dad who really loves us.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is a dad whose will for us,
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  SPEAKER_00: God's will for us,
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  SPEAKER_00: is that we flourish in life,
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  SPEAKER_00: that we love,
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  SPEAKER_00: that we be loved,
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  SPEAKER_00: and share that love with others as we are loved by God.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then Jesus begins to list off various prayer requests.
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  And even these prayer requests are dripping with promise
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  because they're saying,
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  SPEAKER_00: yes,
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  SPEAKER_00: God is a God who wants to provide your daily needs,
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  SPEAKER_00: your daily bread.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes, God is a God who wants to forgive you.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes, God is a God who wants to protect you from evil.
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  SPEAKER_00: So when we pray these petitions,
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  SPEAKER_00: we're not only asking God for things,
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  SPEAKER_00: we're reminding ourselves of what God is really like,
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  SPEAKER_00: that this is a God who does love us,
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  SPEAKER_00: wants to care for us,
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  wants to forgive us and be our father so that we can live as
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  God's children.
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  So today we get to that part about forgiveness,
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  which is there's so much there.
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  around the word forgiveness and what it means to forgive and
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  how do we forgive and
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  who should we forgive and who should be forgiven and should you
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  ever withhold
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  SPEAKER_00: forgiveness?
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  SPEAKER_00: And usually when you're talking about forgiveness,
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  SPEAKER_00: you're talking about deep hurt or deep disappointment or deep betrayal.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it's a very emotive topic.
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  And the way that this is phrased makes it even more emotionally
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  difficult because
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  SPEAKER_00: Because Jesus says,
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  SPEAKER_00: forgive us our sins,
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  SPEAKER_00: forgive us our trespasses,
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  SPEAKER_00: as we forgive those who trespass against us.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it sounds conditional.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right?
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  SPEAKER_00: We talk all the time,
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  SPEAKER_00: the gospel is because therefore,
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  SPEAKER_00: because God does this,
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  SPEAKER_00: therefore we can do that.
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  SPEAKER_00: This sounds like an if then.
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  SPEAKER_00: If we forgive, then God will forgive us.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And John has been asking me this question probably every three years.
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  SPEAKER_00: John will get back on when our time together and he'll say,
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  SPEAKER_00: all right,
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  SPEAKER_00: now the same with the Lord's prayer.
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  SPEAKER_00: What is the deal here with forgiveness?
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  And John,
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  I'm not going to put words in your mouth,
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  which I've already done.
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  SPEAKER_00: So put them into your own words.
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  SPEAKER_00: What is it that bugs you about this part of the prayer?
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  SPEAKER_02: So because on the deep grace diving podcast,
• 3:40
  and grace is certainly something that I've continued to try to
• 3:44
  dive into and figure
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  SPEAKER_02: out.
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  You oftentimes talk to him about the difference between those
• 3:50
  that because
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  SPEAKER_02: therefore statements and thinking versus the if then.
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  SPEAKER_02: And this seems to be in all translations that I can find so clearly.
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  SPEAKER_02: And if then.
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  SPEAKER_02: If we forgive, then we will be forgiven.
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  And it's just another one of those reminders to me that when I
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  trip on something
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  SPEAKER_02: like this,
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  that seems to conflict with my understanding of God and how God
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  relates to us
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  SPEAKER_02: throughout the rest of scripture,
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  SPEAKER_02: it makes me want to do a little bit of extra work to figure it out.
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  SPEAKER_02: So I'm at the extra work point.
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  SPEAKER_02: I owe it to what's going on here,
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  how the Bible wants to be written to do the extra work and
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  figure out why it is
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  SPEAKER_02: that
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  this was written like this yeah yeah um what what's i think
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  somewhat interesting
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  when we look at sort of how the the the prayer progresses again
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  you start out with
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  this affirmation of who god is this is a loving caring god and
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  this is a god who
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  SPEAKER_00: wants what's best for you and then the first kind of prayer petition
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  SPEAKER_00: has to do with the very basic human need of food.
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  And then the next petition has to do with the very human need
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  for healthy relationships.
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  SPEAKER_00: You can't survive without either of them.
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  SPEAKER_00: You've got to have bread to eat.
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  SPEAKER_00: You've got to have healthy relationships.
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  SPEAKER_00: These are the two core needs of human beings.
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  SPEAKER_00: To flourish through food and to flourish through relationships.
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  SPEAKER_00: And of course,
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  SPEAKER_00: behind the first one is quote insecurity,
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  SPEAKER_00: which we talked about last week,
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  SPEAKER_00: and then how we can be an answer to that.
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  SPEAKER_00: Behind this one, of course, is broken relationships.
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  SPEAKER_00: And there are a lot of reasons why relationships break.
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  SPEAKER_00: But the one thing that tends to keep them broken is our inability to or a
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  SPEAKER_00: misunderstanding of what forgiveness really means.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so Jesus here,
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  SPEAKER_00: even though the phrase just kind of goes by real fast,
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  SPEAKER_00: forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
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  As we saw last week,
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  there's a lot of stuff going on in this part of the prayer.
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  And what's interesting,
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  as we saw last week,
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  even though Jesus gives us this prayer,
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  He continues throughout his ministry to tease out what this
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  prayer means.
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  SPEAKER_00: So,
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  SPEAKER_00: for example,
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  we talked last week about the background to give us this day
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  our daily bread,
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  which was the people of Israel coming out of slavery and God
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  fed them manna every
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  SPEAKER_00: day.
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  And then Jesus having the disciples feed the hungry masses when
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  they had no food.
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  And so Jesus continues to teach about what it means for God to
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  meet our needs and
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  SPEAKER_00: what it means for us to be the one God uses to meet the needs of others.
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  SPEAKER_00: And of course, Jesus talks a lot about forgiveness.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's not just this little phrase in the prayer.
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  SPEAKER_00: He teases it out for three years in his ministry.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we've got some of that that we'll look at today.
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  SPEAKER_00: So the Lord's Prayer,
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  SPEAKER_00: even though we can pray it in our churches,
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  SPEAKER_00: in our homes,
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  SPEAKER_00: and it's just this phrase that goes by quickly.
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  SPEAKER_00: For Jesus,
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  these two petitions were at the heart of what it means to be a
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  human being as God
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  SPEAKER_00: created us to be.
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  SPEAKER_00: God provided the garden.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then God provided Eve for Adam.
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  SPEAKER_00: God provided food and God provided relationship.
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  SPEAKER_00: So these are two basic human needs.
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  SPEAKER_00: And food insecurity kind of robs us of the first.
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  SPEAKER_00: Brokenness and pain kind of robs us of the second.
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  SPEAKER_00: And forgiveness can be the antidote.
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  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of a background to what's going on in this prayer.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of stuff going on here.
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  SPEAKER_00: And before we sort of talk about, is this a what if?
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  SPEAKER_00: Not a what if.
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  SPEAKER_00: Is this an if then or is this a because therefore?
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  There's a passage in Matthew 18 where Peter,
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  Jesus is talking about forgiveness.
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  And Peter,
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  he says to Jesus,
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  so look,
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  if somebody sins against me or hurts me or whatever,
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  then
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  SPEAKER_00: How many times should I forgive that person?
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  SPEAKER_00: And then he throws out a number.
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  SPEAKER_00: Seven?
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now, here's a little background.
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  SPEAKER_00: Peter thinks he's being uber liberal with forgiveness here.
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  Because essentially,
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  in Jewish teachings at that time,
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  you could forgive a person three times.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then after that, you are under no obligation to forgive them anymore.
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  So Peter's saying,
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  okay,
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  I'm going to be even better than the religious leaders.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to say seven.
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  SPEAKER_00: If I forgive somebody seven times, we're good?
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  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
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  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus, please remember, seven is sort of the number for perfection.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: Excellent choice, Peter.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so then Jesus says, well...
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  SPEAKER_00: No.
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  SPEAKER_00: Actually, what you should do is you should forgive a person 70 times 7.
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  Now,
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  John,
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  we're going to trust that you are better at math than Terry and
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  I are.
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  SPEAKER_00: What does 70 times 7 come to?
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  SPEAKER_02: Well, apparently you're off the requirement at 491.
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  SPEAKER_02: Right.
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  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to get the 491.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  So if you take this literally,
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  you would think,
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  okay,
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  490 times I got to forgive somebody.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  Now,
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  what Jesus is really saying,
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  using 70 times 7,
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  is that you forgive as often as necessary.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: You just, there's no limit to forgiveness.
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  SPEAKER_00: Forgiveness is extravagant.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's lavish.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's scandalous.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's nutty.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now,
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  SPEAKER_00: if you're forgiving a person 490 times,
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  SPEAKER_00: you've probably gotten through most of your life with that person.
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  SPEAKER_00: But his point is, forgiveness is lavish and never stop forgiving.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the question would be, well, why is that?
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  SPEAKER_00: If someone keeps hurting me, why would I keep on forgiving them?
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  So let me pause here and say that Jesus is not doing therapy in
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  this story.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he's doing some.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'll talk about that in a moment.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is a theological point he's making.
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  SPEAKER_00: So let me add a little therapy here.
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  If you are in a relationship where a person keeps hurting you
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  and doesn't change,
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  SPEAKER_00: you need to get out of that relationship.
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  Jesus is not saying to you,
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  be a doormat and allow yourself to be abused over and over
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  again.
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  SPEAKER_00: Just keep forgiving.
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  SPEAKER_00: That is not Jesus' point.
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  SPEAKER_00: So when we're in toxic relationships that have no chance of changing,
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  SPEAKER_00: except for the grace of God getting through,
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  we just need to get out of that relationship because that's not
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  healthy for us.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so we're going to just set that aside.
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  SPEAKER_00: What Jesus is saying here,
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  the reason why we should be forgiving people is because when we
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  don't forgive,
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  SPEAKER_00: we become less than human.
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  SPEAKER_00: When we don't forgive, we hang on to hurt.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it begins to eat away at us.
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  SPEAKER_00: Creates an ulcer in the soul.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it can make us angry.
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  SPEAKER_00: It can make us bitter.
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  SPEAKER_00: But more than that, when we fail to forgive others,
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  to use a phrase you've heard many times,
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  that person lives rent-free in your head.
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  SPEAKER_00: They control your life because they have control over you.
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  As long as you hang on to the hurt they've done to you,
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  they control your life.
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  SPEAKER_00: They may not even know anymore what they did.
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  SPEAKER_00: They may not even be thinking about you.
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  SPEAKER_00: But when we fail to forgive,
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  SPEAKER_00: and Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_00: this is where Jesus is a bit of a therapist,
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  SPEAKER_00: but it's also a theological point.
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  SPEAKER_00: When we fail to forgive, that forgiveness makes us less than human.
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  It begins to rob us of joy because we are controlled by the
• 13:01
  hate and the hurt or
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  SPEAKER_00: the anger that was caused to us by someone else.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's why Jesus encourages us to forgive over and over again.
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  SPEAKER_00: Not just to let that person off the hook.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's not the point.
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  point is for to save our own souls because to live with
• 13:22
  unforgiveness is to live
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  with bitterness or pain disappointment and to be ruled over by
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  them and forgiveness
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  is the only antidote and it's antidote and it's hard work by
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  the way yeah to
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  SPEAKER_00: forgive and
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  SPEAKER_02: And a path, Tim.
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  Oftentimes,
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  it doesn't just happen Tuesday morning and then you never think
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  about it again.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's this journey, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
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  SPEAKER_00: And let's come back to that, okay?
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  Let's sort of talk about the phases of forgiveness in a moment
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  because I think
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: that's really helpful.
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  SPEAKER_00: So Jesus wants us to be forgiving people because when we don't forgive,
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  SPEAKER_00: we can get stuck in bitterness,
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  SPEAKER_00: anger,
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  SPEAKER_00: and hurt.
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  SPEAKER_00: So now let's go to the Lord's Prayer.
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  SPEAKER_00: And what is Jesus saying here?
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  SPEAKER_00: Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
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  SPEAKER_00: He's not saying that if you don't forgive people, God won't forgive you.
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  SPEAKER_00: What he's saying is what we already know intuitively.
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  SPEAKER_00: When we harbor unforgiveness toward others,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's really hard for us to experience forgiveness ourselves.
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  SPEAKER_00: because we're so consumed with the unforgiveness of others.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's not that God doesn't forgive us.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's just that my hanging on to my,
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  SPEAKER_00: to the hurt that's been done to me,
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  SPEAKER_00: even if it's legitimate,
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  SPEAKER_00: right?
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying it,
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm not trying to downplay the hurt or the anger,
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  SPEAKER_00: the disappointment,
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  SPEAKER_00: but when I hang on to that hurt,
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  SPEAKER_00: right?
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  SPEAKER_00: and I start to begrudge that person,
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm consumed with that person,
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  SPEAKER_00: getting even with that person,
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  SPEAKER_00: that person getting hurt,
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  SPEAKER_00: or I'm praying against that person,
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  it is very difficult for me to experience the grace and
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  forgiveness of God in my
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: life.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's not that it's not there,
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  but I'm not in a place where I can receive it or experience it
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  because I'm so
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  SPEAKER_00: caught up in my own unforgiveness.
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  SPEAKER_00: So God still forgives,
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  But if I'm not a forgiving person,
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  it's really difficult for me to experience that.
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  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I think he's saying.
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  SPEAKER_00: All right.
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  Now,
• 15:36
  let's tease that out for a little bit because I want to make
• 15:39
  sure that's really clear.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then we'll talk about some of the stages of forgiveness.
• 15:43
  So,
• 15:43
  Tim,
• 15:45
  your point of it can't be that if you don't forgive,
• 15:50
  God will not forgive you.
• 15:52
  But part of the reasons why that can't be true is because God's
• 15:56
  forgiveness has
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: already been given.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
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  SPEAKER_02: That happened already.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:04
  Let me tweak that a little bit and say God's forgiveness has
• 16:08
  already been given,
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  SPEAKER_00: happened on the cross 2,000 years ago,
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  SPEAKER_00: but we need to hear it over and over again.
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  SPEAKER_00: We need to be reminded of it.
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  SPEAKER_00: We need to be reassured of it.
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  We need to re-experience the promise because there are things
• 16:26
  in our lives that
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: happen where we begin to doubt.
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  SPEAKER_00: Certainly God can't forgive that.
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  And we just need to hear somebody say to us,
• 16:35
  no,
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  Jesus does forgive you,
• 16:36
  so let it go.
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  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, can I just say that's another thing.
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  If we don't forgive ourselves,
• 16:44
  it's really hard for us to hear God forgive us.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead, Terry.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, is there something in the asking to forgive us?
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  SPEAKER_01: Is that a question or a request?
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  SPEAKER_01: Forgive us our sins?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, again, let's go back to what we talked about last week.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: God provides our daily bread is what Luther said.
• 17:13
  But the reason why we ask for it is to remind ourselves that
• 17:16
  God is the source of
• 17:18
  our lives and to remind ourselves to look for the good things
• 17:24
  that God is doing in
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: our lives.
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  And the reason why we ask for forgiveness isn't so that God
• 17:30
  will forgive us.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's because God forgives us.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: So when I pray for God's forgiveness,
• 17:36
  the reason why I'm doing is because I already know God's going
• 17:39
  to forgive me,
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: but I need to be reminded of that.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: I need to hear it over and over again.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's why in some churches like the Lutheran church,
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: when you have communion,
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: you have a prayer and confession time and the pastor stands up and says,
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: in the name of Jesus,
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: your sins are forgiven.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: And just to hear that word again, to be reminded, uh,
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't mean that suddenly all those sins,
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: they've been building up and Jesus needed to forgive a bunch of them.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: I always live as a forgiven person because I live as a child of God.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: But I need to hear over and over again,
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: just as I need to hear God loves me,
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: I need to hear God forgives me.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: To be reminded of the fact.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, Terry, go.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: So this is... doesn't necessarily reflect...
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: a word that I don't know that we hear so much anymore, but repenting.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so the word repentance means to change direction.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: And there are a lot of,
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: oftentimes what you'll hear people say is repent,
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: turn from your sins and you will be saved.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to repent before you can be saved and forgiven.
• 18:59
  But what Paul tells us is that it's God's kindness that leads
• 19:06
  to repentance.
• 19:09
  The reason why I turn around is because I've been so
• 19:12
  overwhelmed by this love of
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: God that I don't want to keep running from it.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: That grace just turns me around.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Think of it this way.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: It just came to my mind.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see if it works.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Someone who turns your head
• 19:29
  You heard that phrase before someone who turns your head might
• 19:32
  be someone you
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: recognize and you look,
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: or there might be something that goes on and you,
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: wow,
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be a part of that.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: It turns your head.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: And, and in the case of falling in love, she turned my head.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: He turned my head.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: It was, it's God's love that turns me and draws me to God.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's not my turning that draws God to me.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's God's love for me that turns me and draws me to God.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yes, repentance is a part of that.
• 20:00
  Confession,
• 20:01
  repentance,
• 20:02
  it's all a part of it,
• 20:03
  but it's always done in response.
• 20:05
  And really what repentance becomes or confession becomes is a
• 20:10
  way of saying,
• 20:13
  God,
• 20:13
  I need you.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: God, I'm powerless without you.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: Or God, I surrender my life to you.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Now, God has already claimed to me.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:28
  But there are moments when it's important for me to just
• 20:30
  acknowledge that.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: To say to a spouse or to a child.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: I love you.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I know you love me.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: We need to say those things just to be reminded of them.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: But God always makes the first move.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: God forgives.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so therefore I confess.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: I was just going to say,
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: in this case,
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: God's not saying if you don't forgive others,
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: God won't forgive you.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: God is saying if you don't forgive others,
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: it's really difficult for you to experience God's forgiveness for you.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: So he wants us to let it go.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: This is a prayer that God set me free.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: I know I'm just hearkening back to my version.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm hearkening back a little bit in the discussion.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm,
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: I have the new living transition translation up and,
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: and it reads,
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: it reads like timeframe wise or whatever,
• 21:34
  a little differently and forgive us our sins as we have
• 21:39
  forgiven those who sin
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: against us.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: So that, um,
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: That feels a little bit different.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's not worded well.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 21:57
  Again,
• 21:57
  we always want to be careful on putting any prerequisites
• 22:03
  before grace.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because really,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: if I have to forgive others before God can forgive me,
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: when do I know I've done enough?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Never.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Never.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: You never know.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that's so strong because it's like, so I did this, God, I did it.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: So your turn, you know, to me.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: And other people read us, Oh man, I'm never going to be forgiven.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: I just flipped off that guy on the way to work.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: And right.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: How am I going to, how am I supposed to find that guy?
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Who pulled in front of me and I'm mad at him.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so,
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: Or my relationship with my grandma was really strange.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: She was a toxic woman.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: She's dead.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now what do I do?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And again,
• 22:57
  what we also want to remember with the Lord's Prayer is Jesus
• 23:00
  is putting these
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: things together both as reminders of who God is to us,
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: reminders of how God meets our most basic needs,
• 23:09
  and then he'll tease out these phrases for us in his teachings
• 23:13
  as he goes along.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus is all in unforgiveness because it's good for us.
• 23:24
  It's what really keeps our hearts warm and supple rather than
• 23:30
  hard and resistant.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because the more unforgiving you have, the harder it is to let people in.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not like, I, I'm so on board.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like I feel peace about it,
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: but then I have,
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: when I was looking,
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: I happened to jump down a little bit.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Are we good on time?
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: If I bring this up.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm down.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: Matthew six, 14 through 15, 14 and 15.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: And again, this is NLT.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: If.
• 24:05
  you forgive those who sin against you,
• 24:08
  your heavenly father will forgive you.
• 24:12
  But if you refuse to forgive others,
• 24:16
  your father will not forgive your sins.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: Is that, is that like an NLT?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: No, I just, I just choose to ignore that verse.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think it's still in the same vein, right?
• 24:36
  I think what Jesus is trying to do here is to talk about how
• 24:39
  important it is for us
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: as forgiven people to forgive others.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: I recognize that if you just read it, the harsh...
• 24:49
  literal uh ism of it right that it sounds like jesus saying man
• 24:53
  if you're as long
• 24:54
  as you're withholding forgiveness from people i'm going to
• 24:56
  withhold it from you but
• 24:58
  that doesn't jive with the rest of what jesus says right in his
• 25:01
  teachings right so
• 25:03
  you have to sort of look at the whole body of what jesus is
• 25:05
  saying and then step
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: back and say okay so what does jesus say about forgiveness
• 25:12
  And Jesus says we should be forgiving people and forgive over
• 25:17
  and over again.
• 25:18
  And the reason why Jesus does that is because Jesus knows if we
• 25:21
  don't forgive,
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: we become hardened.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: And we become hardened to the love of other people.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: We can be hardened to the love of God.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think what Jesus is saying,
• 25:35
  which makes more sense to me in the context of everything that
• 25:38
  Jesus teaches,
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: is that when I refuse to forgive other people,
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: it's very difficult for me to know that God forgives me.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: I become a walking, bitter person.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not living as a forgiven person anymore.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm walking as a bitter, unforgiving person.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:01
  Because later on,
• 26:02
  Jesus talks about how his grace shines on the just and the
• 26:06
  unjust and so on.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to look within the whole context of things.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: And let's remember,
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: just as an aside,
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: some of these things like you just read,
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: they're really hard to get our brains around,
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: which validates for many scholars these writings.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you didn't want...
• 26:30
  Normally,
• 26:30
  if you're going to put something down,
• 26:31
  you want to take the hard parts out,
• 26:34
  right?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because it does seem like Jesus is contradicting himself.
• 26:38
  So the fact that that's in there suggests that this is probably
• 26:41
  one of those,
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: you can count on it statements because it's hard.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: But in the context of the rest of it,
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: but is that any more difficult than the story of the prodigal son,
• 26:52
  a father who just runs to this son who has been so toxic to the
• 26:57
  whole family and
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: just forgives him no questions asked?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's hard.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's a hard story, too.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: Let's let's just talk quickly.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: John had mentioned that there's a process for forgiveness.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: And Lewis B. Smedes is one of the guys who's done that.
• 27:17
  We've heard some of you who are listening maybe have heard the
• 27:20
  stages of grief.
• 27:24
  you've got things like shock and denial,
• 27:27
  and then you eventually move through it.
• 27:29
  And there are stages,
• 27:30
  and you find yourself in two or three stages at a time.
• 27:34
  But you finally get through to not where you're totally ever
• 27:38
  healed from it,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: but where you can now move on with life.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: And what Smedes taught,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: he uses a similar thing,
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: and he says,
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: forgiveness ultimately is coming to the point where
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: where you no longer wish harm to the person who hurt you.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: Now think about that for a moment.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: You no longer wish them harm.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of a low bar.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's a high bar if you've really been hurt,
• 28:05
  but he's not saying that you now love them and are best friends
• 28:08
  with them.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: He's just saying you don't wish them harm anymore.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: Or another way of saying it, they aren't living rent free in your head.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: And all you're doing is thinking about them getting their just reward.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Growing bitter.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's, it's really the ability to let go of that person.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: Let go.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes,
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: there can be healing obviously,
• 28:33
  but sometimes you got to let that person go and just not let
• 28:38
  them run your life
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: anymore.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: Not let them claim your soul through anger, bitterness and, and move on.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so there are stages,
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: you've got to,
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: one of the stages is to be angry and that's normal.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: When someone hurts you, you're angry about it.
• 28:54
  And depending on how deep the offense is,
• 28:57
  the anger can run deep and can last for a long time.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a process that you want to rush.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also not a place where you want to stay either.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to stay in that anger and hurt.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: so long that it begins to rob you of life.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus wants you to live in the promise and joy of his forgiveness,
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: not in the pain and despair of unforgiveness.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: I was going to say, that's kind of what it means, right?
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: Say it again?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
• 29:37
  One of the ways we could look at it is Jesus wants us to live
• 29:39
  in his forgiveness
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: rather than in the pain and hurt of unforgiveness.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: So as long as we're living in that pain and hurt of unforgiveness,
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: it's hard to live as a forgiven person.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 29:53
  so in saying the phrase that I think we're all familiar with
• 29:58
  being quick to forgive
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: it's the decision to choose to forgive.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: That can be quick.
• 30:04
  There is a process or processes that you would move through in
• 30:11
  the state of forgiving and
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: but that is not flip.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's just,
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm choosing,
• 30:19
  I'm being quick to make this choice because of what I know
• 30:24
  forgiveness does for me
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: and what I've learned it to be.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: But even though it might,
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: depending on the relationship or depending on the situation,
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: it might roll out at different paces or at different depths or,
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: or turn.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's really well said.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: You make a decision in the midst of the hurt.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to let this thing control me.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to find a way to forgive.
• 30:52
  And then I'm going to just have to walk through the stages of
• 30:57
  anger and grief and
• 30:58
  recognize I may get really close and then all of a sudden I'm
• 31:02
  reminded of it and I
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: have to go through the stages all over again.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:06
  And I think it's also good to remember that just because you
• 31:09
  forgive someone
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: doesn't mean that you don't remember the hurt and pain.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's part of what Smedes is trying to say.
• 31:17
  What it means is that it no longer controls you or you're no
• 31:20
  longer wishing,
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: as long as you continue to wish that person harm,
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: that person controls you.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: But if you still hurt,
• 31:30
  but you're not anymore praying that God would kill them in a
• 31:34
  road accident,
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: you're...
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: You're on your way.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: We would never do that.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: None of us.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: Not even sure what you're talking about.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't laugh at that because I identified.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't laugh at that because that.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: Never happened.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: Tim and Terry,
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: before we go,
• 31:54
  can we just do a quick review of the Lord's Prayer and where we
• 31:59
  are and kind of the
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: thought that we've talked about in these podcasts so far?
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: Tim,
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: you started off this podcast with that,
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: but I wonder if we can go kind of line by line just real quickly and say,
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I'll start off.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: Our Father in Heaven,
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: one of the thoughts there is the beautiful word Father,
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: which could be translated Daddy,
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: Abba,
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: really something that's very kind of intimate and genuine and kind.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: May your name be kept holy.
• 32:27
  That was a callback to where we are in that part of the world
• 32:32
  at that time.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: And them saying that this is a special kind of God,
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: and we want his name to be holy forever,
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: all along.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: And we want to make God's name holy in one sense,
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: is to live in relationship with God as his child,
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: as God's child.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: As his child.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: May your kingdom come soon.
• 32:56
  That was talking about sort of the kingdoms here,
• 32:59
  but it's not quite here.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: Kingdom and will be done is really meant to be happening here on earth.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: This is not a prayer.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus, take me to heaven soon.
• 33:11
  This is a prayer to live as God's child here and now on planet
• 33:16
  earth and to live
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: out God's will,
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: which is to love and care for the world.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: And give us today the food we need.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: That was last podcast.
• 33:26
  That's about being grateful and also thinking about today a
• 33:30
  little bit more than
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: the worries about tomorrow.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 33:33
  And also thinking about those who maybe are less fortunate and
• 33:36
  how can we help?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: Very good.
• 33:39
  And finally,
• 33:40
  forgive us our sins as we forgive those who have sinned against
• 33:44
  us.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: And we've talked about that,
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: but just to kind of summarize that,
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: this is first and foremost a prayer about the character of God.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus is saying something radical about this God.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: This God wants us to come to God.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: This God is a loving,
• 34:02
  caring Father and cares passionately about lavishing love on us
• 34:08
  and on creation so
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: that life can flourish and thrive the way God wanted it to.
• 34:14
  This is about a God who sent Jesus to come that we might have
• 34:17
  life and have it to the full.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's what this prayer is really about.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: And a full life comes when our needs are met.
• 34:23
  A full life comes when we're forgiving other people and
• 34:25
  experiencing God's forgiveness.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then we'll finish out the prayer in the next podcast or two.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, good.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 34:34
  And that is in line with what you hear on the Deep Grace Diving
• 34:37
  podcast often is,
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: let's look at this piece of Scripture and
• 34:42
  And let's kind of tear it apart a little bit and figure out
• 34:44
  where we are in it.
• 34:45
  But really what this piece of scripture is about is they're
• 34:48
  trying to explain
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: something about God to us.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe if we look at it through that lens first,
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: that's a little bit helpful as we're working through it.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: What is this God like?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: This God is a father who loves you,
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: who wants to take care of your daily needs,
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: who wants you to live in the power and joy of forgiveness.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's what this God is like.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: And to share that forgiveness with others.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: All right, guys.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_03: Good stuff.