Latest / WoT Spoilers / Scents Unknown - The Gathering Storm chapter 44 - EP539

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Scents Unknown - The Gathering Storm chapter 44 - EP539 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm not even gonna try and wrap my brain around
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: it or explain it. I would rather get into the
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: wheel of time.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: You don't want to talk about time. You just want
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: to talk.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: About time, the wheel of time.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Yes, okay, we got to put a wheel on it. Yeah,
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: and then we can talk about it, make it make sense, because.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: Otherwise how do you explain time? I mean, that's really
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: it's just infinitely stretching forward back and forth like forever.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: Our brains just don't do infinity. Mine certainly doesn't.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: No, you can try, you can have a very good
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: time trying, but I don't know if you can achieve.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: My favorite arguments online are when people argue about like, well,
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: you know, the wheel turns and the same things have
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: to happen again. And then people start arguing about how
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: long a turn of the wheel is, and they're like, well, no,
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: each one's about three thousand years, right, because this one was,
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: you know, so you've got seven ages three thousand years.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: Some other people like, no, the last turn is the
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: age of the universe. It's billions of years, right, like,
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: and then you have a reset and a big bang,
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: like what is the time scale of the wheel, and
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: what's the timescale of an age? I think that that
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: that's something that's impossible to answer, and that's something that
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: totally changes what you can propose. The Wheel of time
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: actually is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's fictional, so it
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: is whatever it needs to be right for the.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Story that This is why we need artists just to
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: help us grapple with the reality of time. We're going
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: to read a book called The Wheel of Time, but
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: somehow breaks it down into smaller, bite sized pieces. Yeah,
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: so today we're doing Rand is mean to hearing. That's
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: all basically the event of the chapter.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: Rand bullies his old friends.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, basic, Rand is having a very bad time and
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: poor hero it is caught in the crossfire.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: Rand's very bad, no good day.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: Uran's very bad no good day. Rewrites this whole chapter
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: from Huron's.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: Perspective, Jesus the Borderlanders in general.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah no, this they almost get nuked. This is
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: playing chicken with a moving train, is.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: What this is. But we're moments from his epiphany, right,
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: so we have to show him at his absolute worst,
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: which is raining fire and death down upon his allies
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: simply because they choose to act in a way that's
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: not one hundred percent in the way he wants, even
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: though he hasn't community communicated the way he wants, right, Like,
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: this is forsaken level badness where you're like, I'm trying
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: to help you. Well, fuck, you didn't do it right,
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: I'm cutting your throat and walking away right.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: Right, And this he doesn't actually rain down fire, but
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: the fact that he's about to is what gets Ninive
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: to finally go find Tam, right, this is what makes
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: her decide to follow through with kat Swain's ask to
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: find Paren and to get that information from Rand. And
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: the fact that she cares and stops him is why
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: he gives her that information and tells her where to
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: find Paren. Like, this event really does precipitate getting Tam
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: on site. So with that, I guess I should read
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: us in.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a ninative POV, even though it's a one hundred
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: percent of Rand chapter.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: Very Rand, but yeah, all in nine Eve's voice, which
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: is fun because Naive is cranky.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: This is again I think Sanderson does a great job
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: with Ninieve. I don't understand how he got Ninive so
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: well and totally missed Matt because it's the same character.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there's something there, because yeah, I agree, his
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: ninive feels very much like we've got her growth arc
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: since the early books and she's really come into herself
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: and her motivations are all still in alignment, and yeah
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: he gets her so so right. All right with that,
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna read us into chapter forty four Scents Unknown,
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: and our symbol is the snake into the wheel, and
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: the title obviously references here and going never smelled that before,
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: smells like the devil anyway.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: By the way, I got curious. I was sitting out
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: on one of the chatbots AI and I was like,
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: act like a Wheel of Time fan, and it gave
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: me a pretty good like summary about what they loved
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: about the Wheel of Time, and I was like, oh,
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: this is decently accurate, and I was like, hey, tell
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: me about Sense unknown since I was doing that recording,
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: what do you think? It was like great Parent chapter,
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: just fantastic, And I was like, oh.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: More proof that we don't need these stupid butts.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: It's just like, oh my god, Parent's not even in.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: That well, but it talks about smelling so cool.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: And then went on about how great Parent was in
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: the chapter and it was like from a totally different chapter.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: And I even told it like it's chapter number whatever
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: it was in this book since unknown and it was like, oh, yeah, Parent.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: This is why you can't trust AI with anything, because
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: it's literally just slapping things together based on pattern recognition
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: with no di whatsoever. To say it's hallucinating is to
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: give it more capacity than it really has. It's not hallucinating.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: It's just slapping shit together based on association. But anyway,
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: don't use AI anyway read it. Tarwin's Gap is the
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: place that makes the most sense. Nineve argued. She and
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: Rand rode on an overgrown road in the open grassland
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: of Moreto, accompanied by a crowd of Ayio. Ninive was
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: the only eyes to die there. Narshma and Naife rode
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: near the back of the group, looking sullen. Rand had
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: forced their eyes to die to stay behind. He seemed
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: particularly determined to assert his independence from them. Lately. Ninive
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: was astride of pure white mare named Moonlight, appropriated from
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: Rand's stable and tear. It still seemed odd that he
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: should have his own stable at all, let alone one
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: in each of the major cities of the world. Tarwin's gap,
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: Rand said, shaking his head. No, the more I think
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: about it, the more I realize that we don't want
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: to fight there. Land is doing me a favor. If
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: I can coordinate an assault alongside his own, I can
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: gain great advantage. But I don't want to distract my
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: armies with the gap. It would be a waste of resources,
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: a waste of resources. The gap was where Land was heading,
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: like an arrow loosed from a two rivers long bow,
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: heading there to die, and Rand said helping was a waste,
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: woolheaded fool. Gritting her teeth, she forced herself to calm down.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: If only he would argue rather than speaking in that
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: distant way he had recently adopted. He seemed so emotionless,
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: but she had seen the beast get free and roar
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: at her. It was coiled inside him, and if he
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: didn't let his emotions out soon they would devour him
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: from the inside. And that is the vibe of the chapter.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: Is her going, oh God, oh god, ticking time bomb, Oh,
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: ticking time bomb. This is a problem.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: I don't definitely falling apart. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, sure,
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: you don't feeling her anymore? As he like exhibits all
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: the classic signs of over and over and over again.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: You're like, okay, angry boy, seriously, like no anger for you?
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and like Ninive is you know Ninive? I'm not
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: shouting shouted Ninive Almeira, Yes, right, Like if there's ever
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: a character to be like, well, I think I'm seeing
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: a little bit of anger in the non angry person,
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: it would be Ninive.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: It takes one to know one, you know.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. She is very familiar with being angry and
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: saying she's not angry. She knows he's angry.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: And yeah, this is this whole Like I want him
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: to argue because that's normal behavior. That's something where you
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: can have a discussion with somebody, Like an argument is
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: one thing. This is just like he's ignoring any input.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: He's completely isolated himself from anyone he might trust. He's
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: doing whatever he wants, no matter what anyone else says.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: It's it's basically impossible to deal with. But because he's
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: the dragon reborn, everyone just does what he says. Power crupts,
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: and he's very corrupted. I think in this situation where
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: he's like not listening to anybody.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: And he's this is a very specific kind of corruption,
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: because normally power corrupts means you get drawn into bullshit
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: with other human beings. This man is lost in a
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: maelstream of like magic induced madness and just his own
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: internal stuff. Like he's corrupted in a way that is
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: not usual.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: I would say he's a victim of his own success.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: He's had so much success, taking over countries, winning wars,
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: becoming king. I mean, he's conquered half the world in
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: two years.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: He's got some Alexander the Great going on. But I
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: don't know that that's corruption in the tradition.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, phrases you, that's fair, right, But I do
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: think in the he thinks he's right about anyone and
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: advisors always lead him wrong, so he only does what
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: he wants. Like the number of people, you know, reach
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: a measure, especially like directors people like that who have
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: this measure of success artistically and then use that power
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: to make what they want. And there's this balance between
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: making what you want and listening to people's feedback.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's a power hungry thing. I don't know
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: if it's corruption, just because words have to mean things.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: I can't no, And I think what there are I
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: think there are two very separate meanings of corruption here, right.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: There is the I take money for I get bribed,
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: I take money, I do things to better myself alone, right,
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: and then there's just like things that are kind of
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: like falling apart and are corrupted. I don't know.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: Whatever I think if corruption is being very interpersonal, I
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: don't think buckling under the pressure of your existence is
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: the same. I don't know what the word is for that.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: There's kind of a word for that.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: I like, my you know, their personality is corrupted by
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: this power that is like no longer makes them listen
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: to the people around them.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: Right, I feel like there's a better word for that.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: All right, Well it's not coming to mind.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: I was like, if you find it, go with it,
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: let me know. But in the meantime, I'm going to
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: say corrupt, okay, because people change with power, and one
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: of those changes is the not listening to advisors.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that's just corruption is specific, that's different.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: Hmm. Okay, all right.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: So Ninieve is going back and forth with Rand about land.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: There's this whole I mean, and Rand is to a
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: certain extent being kind of wise in the thing of like, yes,
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: I maybe shouldn't strike at this super obvious place because
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: maybe my enemy will have anticipated that. And it's like
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: the first rule of war to not do what your
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: enemy wants you to do or expects you to do. So, like,
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: we do need to be a little bit sneakier than
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: just throw everything at the exact spot where Land is pointed.
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: But he's not willing to save land, and that's a
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: real deal breaker for a nine eve. So they go
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: back and forth quite a bit.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: He's also willing to sacrifice the border lands, right, He's
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: willing to say, you know what, while the talks are
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: ransacking the border Lands and most of probably Kyrie, Anne
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: and Or, they're not going to be at the last battle,
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: which is going to be at shale Ghul. So I'm
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: just going to gateway to shale Goul. Let them ransack
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: most of the civilized world. And as long as they're
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: distracted while I'm beating the Dark One, that's fine. Dark
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: One's gone. World can go fuck itself, you know, that's
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: his strategy right now. And he's like, I'm focused on
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: one thing and one thing only, which is beating the
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: Dark One. And I think I've talked about this how like,
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: that's really what they're afraid of. If he goes to
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: the last battle like this, he might win against the
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: Dark One, but the world is in for another three
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: thousand years of darkness and terror and pain and destruction.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: We're not going to get the utopia of modern civilization
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: that Rand has really set up in the earlier books
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: before the Taint really became bad. And so this battle
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: strategy might win the last battle, but it's not going
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: to make the rest of surviving and existing in the
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: world fun for anybody.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: Right, because you really do have to define what winning
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: means and what winning is for winning for who, right, Like,
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: Rand has just boiled it all down to winning, and
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: it's like, but beating the Dark One isn't the only
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: part of winning that matters. Right, Rand has boiled it
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: down to I have to defeat the Dark One in
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: that set, And it's like, hey, you need people who
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: can live in the world after. You need to be
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: able to live in the world after, even if you die,
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: you need to be pointed in such a direction that
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: you could live in the world after.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: And if you think about the statement that Robert Jordan
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: said is the Seals were weakened because of the corruption
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: of people in the world. Right, So the worse the
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: world you make, the more the presence the Dark One has,
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: the more likely is to come back, or we can
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: up you know, I guess it's not going to be
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: seals anymore because he sealed them up completely at the end.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: But you know, I think there is some The Dark
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: One has to be able to influence the pattern for
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: people to still make evil choices, right, Like.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: Well, right, the Dark One is necessary for humanity to
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: be what it is, right right, right, you need a
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: creator and a dark One to like be the dynamo
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: that makes human existence.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: Makes choice possible, right yeah.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: Because sealing up the Dark One, he still exists, right,
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: so the choice is always possible to free him again.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: Right, the bore can be remade. He just undoes the
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: fact that the bore was patched, right, he resets the
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: prison to zero. But like there is still a thing
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: inside that prison. And like you've had Cannon, there was
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: even an understudy dark One in the wings just in
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: case Rand did kill the Dark One, you know, like,
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: which I think makes a lot of sense. But now
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: I've always wondered you're talking about this like people brought
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: the Dark One into the world, like weakening the seals.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: I have always sort of wondered.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: Like just because that's a statement from Jordan.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I have always really just wondered, like, why
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: is there things like oh, there was an uprising of
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: Dark Friends and they killed everyone, Like to what end?
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: You know, I've always wondered, to what end? Why are
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: people doing that when it's clearly not the end of days? Right?
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: And I wonder now or I guess it's obvious now
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: they were specifically trying to weaken the Seals enough that
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: the end of Days could come about. They're actually manifesting
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: the Dark One doing evil deeds because they know that
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: that is chipping away ever so slightly at these grand
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: cosmic bonds, and like it's it's just there's a whole
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: cosmology of why Dark Friends do what they do across
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: the millennia that I just hadn't quite put together. And
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: then now I'm putting it together.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: It's like double worship. They're literally trying to summon the
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: devil exactly.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: And I've just always been like, but why, like to
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: what end? Like what mechanic in the world makes that
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: makes sense? I've heard this thing about from Jordan, But
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: I never had connected it to this until you said
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: it just now, Like, oh they knew, the Dark Friends knew.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: That's been part of like dark Friend tradition this whole time,
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: is like, we can bring the Dark One back if
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: we just do enough evil shit, and it will take
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: generations of us just being evil and perpetuating evil, but
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: eventually we can bring our dark Master back, et cetera,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: et cetera.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: But you also have to remember dark friends are just
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: misinformation from a shameel and people and in a shameel
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: being like I'm the dark One, worship me and then
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: be like, oh yeah, let's go worship the dark One.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: Like there's that level of like dark Being part of
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: a dark Friend group is like being dedicated to a
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: shameel more than it's being dedicated.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: To right, But Ashameo would be a great conduit to
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: be like, hey, we we can bring our world about
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: if you do these evil deeds. Here's how you can
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: max out your evil per lifetime. You know, let's see
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: he earns. I mean he really is nahbless by default, right,
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: He's doing the work to get the Dark One back
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: by building an army of people who will just do
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: evil shit for centuries upon centuries.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I always feel like there's two levels of dark friends, right,
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: because there's the people who actually worship the Dark One
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: and have like that, you know, go to shale Grul
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: and that sort of thing, right, the Forsake and some
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: of the more like advanced dark friends, right, I feel
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: like they do get to community with the Dark One itself.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: And then there's like the people who think they're communicating
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: with the Dark One and are just like worshiping a Shawmael,
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: but are still dedicated to the Dark One.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's the difference between worshiping a saint versus
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: worshiping the deity, right, Like, it's all still part of
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: the same belief system. You're still devoted to the structure.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: You just you know, have your personal patron saints and
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: supposed to going for the big granddaddy sky God or whatever.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: Does that make land Fear Jesus's mother.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: I mean sure, it's kind of weird given the land
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: fear Ran relationship.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, that's just.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: Feels like a very Greek myth at that, right, Fine,
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: you know that's that's traditional. If we go back to
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: the Greeks or the Romans for that matter, since they
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: just pillaged the Greeks.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: They really did say God. Romans and Christianity were like
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: just robbed all the native cultures of all there, just
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: knocked him over the head and changed the names of everything.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: Hot Take, The Romans are Christianity and the Christian world
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: is just the Roman Empire's latest duration. Just I'm sorry,
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: but the Roman Empire is my Roman Empire and it
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: isn't dead, guys. Rome is still one of the most
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: fancy pant city in the world. The Vatican Hill was
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: in Rome, even if technically now it's legally it's O country.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: Like please anyway, hot take the book, That's what matters.
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: Have we talked about the book yet.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: Ninive tugs her braid? I love that for her.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: Does she what got her to tugger braid this time?
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: I missed it?
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Okay? So Nineva's thinking about how she has literally been
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: about to leave Rant multiple times a day for days.
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: She is on the absence edge of just going to
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: be with Land, but she stays with Rand because she
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: thinks that there's something to be done. And she tugs
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: her braid in the middle of thinking about all that,
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: because she is again like in that like I should
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: just leave, I should just leave, and she tugs her
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: braid to be like, nope, stay, you must stay.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: Thinking about how stubborn Rand is.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: What good would it do to help Land only to
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: let the world fall into shadow because of a stubborn
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: she pretty stubborn stubbornness against Sanderson gets ninety. It's just
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: that's so her.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: There's this mention of the storm building to the north,
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: and by the end of the chapter she's like, oh,
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: maybe it's not building to the north, maybe it's just Rand.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe it's just building yeah right here everywhere, yeply yeah,
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: which agreed, because this is really like he's three threads
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: away from completely breaking, you know, so he.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: Breaks down his whole plan. I don't know. I think
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: we went into it right, like let them let them
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: flood in sacrifice, the Buffer States, attack Shale goal, win
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: the battle, and then whatever happens happens, and you know,
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: and I think this is a good line here where
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: she says the shawan Chan would wage their word of
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: the south and west, the Troks would attack from the
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: north and the east. The two would meet eventually and
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: Or and the other kingdoms would be turned into a
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: massive battleground. And I feel like that's where like World
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: War One, right, Like that's describing exactly what happened in
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: World War One, is these two massive forces meet and
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: just churn the ground into a bloody mess.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: It also sounds kind of like the prophecy Rand got
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: from the Finn. You know about the North and the
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: South must be as one, the East and the West
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: must be as one, the two must be as one,
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: And you're like.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: The two must be as one?
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: Okay, So I feel like maybe this is a prophecy
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: could have gone a couple of different ways. This can
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: either be a strong alliance or it can be a
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: description of how everything turns into a giant battlefield, and
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: like maybe that's what the Finn actually meant. Oh no,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: it's it's pretty bleak. Even as a reader crowing through
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: this the first time, you're like, I don't know. That
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: almost sounded like the Finn prophecy. The two will become
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: as one and everyone will die. That doesn't I.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: Don't like that. There's also here where Rand says my
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: duty is to kill the dark One, and I think
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: this is one of those moments where he's like, no,
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: I'm not going in there to imprison like he needs
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: he needs Aviendic to give him the idea of taking
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: the Dark One and guy Shine rather than right, yeah,
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: just killing him out right the most time, and that's
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: the more honorable path, right. So here he's just on
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: that I'm gonna kill him and we learn later why
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: that's a bad idea. I do think it would have
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: been really cool if he did kill him, and then
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: he realized the mistake, and that's when you saw the
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: moment avoid in people's eyes, and he's like, what have
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: I done? And then he grabs Pad and Fane and
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: sticks them in the prison and shuts it behind him,
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: and it's like, you're a good you're evil good, you
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: can exist. And then and then that becomes the female
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: half of the Dark One, right, and so then you
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: have the alternating like every turning of the wheel, you
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: kill the dark One and get another one that alternates
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: between like the shadow Logoth evil and the Dark One evil,
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: which is like the male and the female half of
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: the true source of the True power, right, the true power.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: Binaries upon binaries upon binaries.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, like like it would be really cool to have
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: a binary evil. Yeah, but I think of it more
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: as an external and an internal evil, right like one.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: The dark one is evil to other people. The shadow
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: logoth evil is evil like more like domestic violence, right,
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: evil to one's own.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: Right, right.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: The shadow logoth is police brutality. The dark one is
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: armies fighting wars. The shadow logoth is you know, attacking
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: la for riots by sending in the National Guard.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: Riots, which are just protests against really violent and immoral
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: and illegal seizures of people. But not even riots, they're
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: protests that are being escalated by cops. Right, sorry, now
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: national Guard? Fine?
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: Fine?
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: What could she do to change it? She had to
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: come up with a new strategy to influence the Rand corporation.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: Sorry what Rand?
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: Uh?
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: There's just there's a lot of talk about like, oh
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: my god, the farms are failing. Everyone can feel the storm.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: And they're defending themselves. Yeah, Rand's got two hundred people
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: with him, but these farmers are still all stalwart, and yeah,
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: I just and oh yeah. So then we get nine
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: thinking about how it's been a week since kat Swains
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: said find parent for me, and she still hasn't made
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: any progress on that. And like I said earlier, this
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: event with Rand in this chapter is what gets her
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: to really push to complete that mission. She doesn't want
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: to because she doesn't want kat Swain's plan to be
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: the one that works, but this pushes her to, you know,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: set her pride aside and follow the assignment. It's been
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: a week that kad Swayn's been like, oh my god,
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: just do the assignment, which is ten days, right, yeah,
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: it's rand Land week.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: So she goes up to Rand and he's of course
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: talking to LTT right, we just see him uttering to himself,
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: and then she's like, hey, Ran. He's like, oh, yeah, sorry,
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: I was on the phone talking to my old uh
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: brain right, And so she kind of like, we know,
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: do you know where parent is? And he's like, yeah,
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: he's doing what he told him to do, which no
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: he's not, but whatever. No, No, he's gone off on
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: like six side quests and this was supposed to be
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: like one week mission and he's been one for like
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: months and months and months.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: Right, And then nine he's like, well, parent's just too
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: peaceful to tell you. No, he's just your gopher. And
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: Rand's like, I've seen enough visions to know that Paren's
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: problem is not being too peaceful. No, yeah, that is
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: that ship has sailed. Yeah. She tries to hide why
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: she's asking about paren and he sees right through it
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: because she is particularly unaccustomed to lying, which is just
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: so cute. She tries to lie, and he's like, well
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: an attapt was made. That was that was adorable anyway, And.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: That's why he can trust her because she knows how
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: bad she isn't lying, like she doesn't necessarily have to
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: take the oaths right because she's lying, but she's just
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: bad at it.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: She's not a liar by inclination, she doesn't practice it.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: It's not something she ever thinks of herself as doing.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: She's not inherently dishonest, and she's so blunting up front
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: that it's like, yeah, I'm gonna kick your ass, Like
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: why would I lie about that?
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: You know exactly exactly. So when she tries to lie
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: because she's trying to do a good isidye subtrafuge, she's like, well,
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: at least I know that I can tell when you're
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: doing iside subtrafuge, so you know there's a calibration factor.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: And he doesn't answer her question at this point. He
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: keeps the information to himself until after she talks him
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: down from doing mass murder.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, he doesn't. He has no intention of telling
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: her at this point.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah exactly exactly, but like, because you know she's doing
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: isidye shit. Whether or not she's good at it, the
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: point is she's trying and that is not his favorite.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: But she does keep him from doing a chrocious war crimes,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: which he does appreciate.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: Eventually, they've gated into this crossroads that's near Farmatting, which
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: is where the Borderline said they wanted to meet.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and we get there's the whole like traveling mechanics
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: thing threads through this chapter where Sanderson gets way too
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: into the weeds with how traveling can be used.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well we'll get there.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: Fine. I guess I do like the part where and
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: I need thinks about how it's surprising that the Iyeeal
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: are doing such a good job of scouting and blending
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: into the environment and adapting to the landscape because she
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: thought that the waste just all was the same. But
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: she's heard some of Yeel say the same thing about
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: the wetlands, and it's like, yeah, it's just one of
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: those fun cross cultural like yeah, every landscape is unique
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: and varied to the people that live in it.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: You get to know the little variations, so then it
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: looks like trees to you. It's like oak leaf, leather leaf,
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: right like or whatever the you know different versions are
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: and to them it's like, oh, that's you. They have
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: names for different kinds of rock that you've never even
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: heard of, probably exactly.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: They have like eighteen different words for types of sand
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: that kind of thing. Mm hmmm, whereasyeah and I need
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: just use Oh, it's just dunes. And it's like, well,
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: you know, but are these the tall shifting dunes or
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: are they the low rocky dunes? Are they the dunes
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: that are winds like you know? And so on and
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: so forth. There's always nubance.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: He U's The phrase the wheel of time turned is
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: like this whole sentence as a complete sentence. It feels
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: a little out of place to me. But I can't
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: put my finger on why, because the wheel of time
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: appears everywhere in the series, like characters say it all
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: the time. But I think it's because it's not a
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: character saying it. I think because it's in the narration.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: I like the wheel of time turn and like you
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: save that for the intros.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: Right, or at least to put in italics. Yeah, it's
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: clearly an inside thought, but it's not in italics, so
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: it just is the narrator voice. And yeah, it's another
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: one of those little stylistic things that lets you know
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: that Sanderson's writing it.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like, yeah, the wheel turn would have
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: made more sense, That's exactly pants. That was my thought,
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: is like, I don't think you should have said the
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: wheel of time turn. But then I looked it up
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: and the characters say it all the time, and this
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: is not Eve's thoughts. So like, I don't know why
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: it feels so out of place to me, but it
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: really does in this sense. I like went back and
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: forth on that a bunch to be like, this isn't right,
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: and I couldn't figure out why.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: I think it's just the way that Sanderson has a
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: harder type separating the narrator voice from the character. Povja
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: was really good at that, and Sanderson is softer on
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: that boundary.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because it's this does feel like omnipresent narrator
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: even though it's nine eves pov.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I've noticed with a lot of books that
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: just that line is rarely as crisp as it is
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: with Jordan was really clear about that in a way
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: that most authors are more comfortable being more fuzzy.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because well Jordan, so much of his book
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: was based around what people thought in that moment in
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: place and time, right, and so it was really important
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: that this was that POV and they didn't know any
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: more than they did, and like their assumptions were really important.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: How they phrased things really important. And I think you know,
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: you get a couple of paragraphs in and he's just
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: dump info dumping with this character's POV, and the difference
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: feels stark.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which, like you know, you switch to a different
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: book entirely, a different author entirely, like oh, different style,
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: but it is extra stark when it's within the wheel
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: of time books. Yeah, right, different author. This is one
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: of those moments where you really feel that different touch a.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: Little bit of what Narishma as aschmon little some descriptions
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: of him as he's accompanying them.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. She drops back to ride with a man who's
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: not quite as frustrating, and she has a pretty good
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: talk with Narishma because he grew up in the Borderlands
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: and they're going to meet the borderlanders. So she's kind
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: of trying to get someone else's perspective because you know,
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: she's only a borderlander by marriage. She hasn't lived there.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: You know, she identifies with the Borderlands in a lot
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: of ways, but Narishma actually lived the experience of being
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: a borderlander. So she wants his take on why the
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: borderlanders are doing what they're doing, why they're here instead
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: of defending the borderlands. And yeah, he actually is very
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: Unrand like and just talks to her and gives his perspective.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: And in this whole chapter he's following after Rand.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: Disappointment. Disappointment.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying, you could interpret that to say, this
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: is where he is the one who follows after No.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: Shaking your head at me, He's like, no, that is
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: not No, I'm not interpreting it that way. I'm not
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: admitting that that's possible. That cannot be what the prophecy
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: said or the fulfillment of it. I refuse correct.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: No, this is this is just a person being willing
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: to talk to someone for once in these damn books.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: And you know it's because it's been a couple of books,
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: right since we saw the Borderlanders mysteriously collect and start
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: on their mission, like they've really been back burnered.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: Really since I got it. I even want to say,
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: like that was book seven. I'm pretty sure that they
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: went out on their journey like it was as.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, forever ago. So I like that, you know, we
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: use this moment to remind us of what's going on there,
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: like this is a deeply unusual thing for all the
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: leaders to leave.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: Didn't Elaine use them to secure her throne? Didn't A
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: GWayne use them to help like take like secure power
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: as well? Somehow? Yeah, Like they've been used by everybody.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: They've marched all over the countryside looking for him, They've
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: been stuck in the snow, and they have been absolutely
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: useless because there's been nothing going on on the Borderlands,
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: And so they went, see you peace out, which I
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: think is hiding all the activity that is probably going on,
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: right because there's nobody there to see it, right.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So you know it's nice to have a Narushima
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: be like this is we live to defend. And yet
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: they left now of all times, good people can do
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: the wrong thing, particularly when men who channel are involved,
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: like he's not like nobody's clear on what's happening us
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: as the coming through for the first time, we don't know,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: but maybe we forgot, so we need to reach meant
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: to remind us. You know, it's it's a very very
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: top secret mission. Only the leaders of the countries have
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: any idea what's going on. Every single person following them
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: is ignorant and sworn to secrecy.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: Right, So, and this is all prophecy based, right, this
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: is all you.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: Know, all of it, all of it one for telling,
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: like two thousand, eight hundred years ago, and they've held
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: onto it this whole time.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: I wanted to be guitar Moroso just because all the
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: good ones are Rand from her. But like that, Yeah,
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: I like that. This is just an ancient, ancient prophecy
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: that they held on too. Yeah, it makes sense. Like again,
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: if you send this Rand to the last battle at
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: the point, because they're not going to meet him until
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: right before the last battle, that's like and so if
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: you send that Ran off to fight the dark One,
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: you're better off killing him and trying again next time.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: Right, Literally, it would be better to go through the
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: lack of a utopia that is killing Rand and just
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: dealing with the consequences rather than yeah, seeing what he does.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: Well the lego. But like if he stayed bad, he
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: would have just destroyed the world in veins of gold
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: and you wouldn't have had a chance to like slap him,
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: So like why even bother.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Right, because you need events to organize everyone else around, right, Like, yes,
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: the whole world actually hinges on rans like internal thoughts.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: But like in order for him to have armies, people
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: need to see things happen. They need to have conversations
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: and symbols and exchanges.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: And I think it would have been interesting if he
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: met with them and he couldn't come up with the
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: name and they tried to kill him and he fled,
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: and like that was part of his revelation and part
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: of like his breakdown is like why are my allies
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: trying to kill me? And then he comes back and
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: he knows that he like has the revelation and knows
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: the name and can come back and be.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: Like that would have been so cool because it would
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: have been like, oh no, all the prophecies broke down,
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: like where are we going now? It would have been
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: really unsettling after books and books have been like yeah,
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: we know how these prophecies are going to play out.
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: If likely they started to fall apart, that would have
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: been a really fun metaplot twist. Oh well, we got
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: a regular book instead.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: I you know, we could rewrite these million different ways
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: in a million different times.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, we have gotten to about half a million
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: rewrites at this point.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: And so then we get what I think is one
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: of the more disappointing reunions, right because I would have
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: loved to see that they were so close and Rand
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: cared about hearing in book two, and like, Herein was
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: one of those characters that, like, I was so excited
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: to see again because like, we didn't get to see
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: him for a long long time. We knew he was
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: with the Borderlanders. But you know, of all the characters
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: that were introduced in the first three books that get
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: complete storylines that are a big part of the first
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: three books, Haran is one of the few that, like,
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: I feel like, had a long storyline and no resolution
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: in any of the other books. He's just back to
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: the Borderlanders, never talking about him again, and it's like,
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: I don't know, he's not dead, give him some more plot.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: He was a great character. He's got a unique ability
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: of the sniffers, right, Like, I'm so glad that Sanderson
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: brought him back, and I'm so disappointed with the way
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: Rand reads him, which I guess is kind of the point.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you after. I mean because because Harin is
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: the first person who insists on calling Rand's lord right, right,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: Like he's literally the first follower. He's he's the bulin
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: to land, right, He's the one that forces it to begin.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: He's the first follower and he Yeah, it's like I mean,
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: I in a sense, I do like that Harin was
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: the character used for this because it cuts so deeply,
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: so deep. Yeah, but yeah, it's I feel like he
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: does apologize to Hearin later. Yeah, they're just like a
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: post Veins of Gold moment where Rand goes over to
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: him and it's like, you fucking rule, dude, I really
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: appreciate you. Sorry about being a complete ass waffle before.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: Like I'm pretty sure that happen. But yeah, it's Hearing
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: deserved better, even though he is used very effectively here
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: to make that cut so better.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just I think he I'm even going back
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: on Jordan. I think I think Karen deserved more screen time.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Karen should have come back after he delivered his
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: message to the Borderlands. He should have been like, and
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: I'm going back to Rand.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: Now, right to sell.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: One thing of like I have an order of odes,
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: but like I need to go back to be with
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: Rand and like use my sniffer abilities to help him.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: And and you know what has been a really cool
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: thing to see is Rand's fallen corruption through the smell
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: of hearing as he's like, oh, I just like he's like, oh,
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: I haven't been back to the palace in a while,
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: and he goes in. He's like, I'm smelling something really
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: off coming from the palace, you know, and then it's like, oh,
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: it's coming from Rand occasionally, and then like over time
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: he's like, oh it's really strong or it's happening more often,
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: and like you could sort of sprinkle that through the
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: books as you see like Rand's corruption becoming more and
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: more and more and the violence he does becoming more significan.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: Right, Oh, but Nantoc makes a really solid plot point.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: Hearin would have sniffed out dark friends way too easily
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: if he had been around Rand.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: Because he sniffs out violence not necessarily, Like there's a
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: lot of violent people in this series who are not
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: Dark Friends.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but the people that Rand has been.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: Around, Yeah, it is. I think it is a little
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: bit of a plot hole. The heroon can't sniff out
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: Dark Friends thing because it's like dark Friends again, and
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: this is canon where he's like, I can't smell Dark
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: Friends because you know, violence smells like violence, but there's
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: a few things that smell worse. And right, Faine was one,
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: Trollicks and shadow Spawn or another, and now Rand is
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: the third. Right, But like dark Friends in general don't
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: have that off smell.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I'm just saying Rand tends to attract very
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: high ranking dark Friends, so you know. But yeah, I
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: just Hearin should have gotten more of a plot reward
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: for being so present in all of book two and
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: so loyal even when he wasn't getting to be present
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: on the page. And yeah, it would have just been
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: nice to have this betrayal mean more because we'd actually
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: had subsequent interactions.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: Right. You know who I would love to see here
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: and actually end up with is Matt in the Band
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: of the Red Hand, because he accompanies him back to
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: the White Tower, you know, yeah, right.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: Right, and then and then Paren and Matt would each
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: have a sniffing of evil things ability with their armies
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: slightly different mechanisms, but two of his most important armies
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: would have that at the head.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: And then he could be like, oh, yeah, I remember
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: when Lord Matt was just a sick, little you know
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: nothing right right.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: Right right until Monny's is like pretty sure that was
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: never true? In here, I was like, oh no, it
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: was true. It was true.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: And you know, he could have his worship of Lord
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: Matt at a Lord Rand at a distance and like
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: not really and be like, eah, but he's no. I
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: like Lord Matt, but he's no Lord Rand. That's for sure, right.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: Right, And then Matt ends up really appreciating that because
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: here's one of the few people who like, doesn't hear
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: a worship hard because his hero worship is focused elsewhere, right.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah no.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: And then and then when hearing goes back to him
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: being like, yo, Matt, there is something wrong with Rand,
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: Matt is like, oh, okay, notes taken because I'm used
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: to using your ability and I know that if something's
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: wrong with Rand, then you know, like they just mmm, yeah,
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: we could read these books. We should probably focus on
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: the way they were written. So Rand treats here and
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: like he might be another daughter of the Nine moons,
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: actually being semarog situation right, picks him up, spins him around,
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: asks him a trick question.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: Right, what do the men look like? They weren't men,
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: they were frogs.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: Righty, exactly grow them whatever, froggish.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: So yeah, this is where we get the line. That's strange.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: Never smelled that before? What Rand asked? I don't know
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: the air. It smells like a lot of death, a
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: lot of violence, only not it's darker, more terrible. You know.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: That's that's Rand. He's smelling and in bail firing naturals Zaroh,
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: probably right. That's his most recent violent act of violence.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: And a truly outstanding amount of violence, Like it's it's
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: hard to kill that many people at once with more
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: conventional means.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: That also damage the pattern, and.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: It damaged the pattern at a more intrinsic level.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: Or wait what am I thinking? Or it's just the
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: use of the true power right on the that's also
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: something he did.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, because the true power is I mean,
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: it's the power of entropy. So I guess you could
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: categorize that as violent, like at a very fundamental level.
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: And the darker, right, the more terrible. Right, He's used
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: that it's touched him, that violence has touched him, the
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: violence of the dark one.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: That's a good question. Would Hearon smell a president that's
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: signed for a nuclear strike? Does that count as the
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: violence that would transcend to hear and smell sense? Or
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: if all you did was calmly write on a piece
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: of paper, then you didn't do any violence according to
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: his sense?
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: Is it just or soon who drops the bomb? Is
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: it just the person who builds the bomb who has responsibility?
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: What if you have a drone and you have a
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: drone operator, do you just smell where the bomb was dropped.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: Does the bunker where the people who are sitting and
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: dropping bombs on people smell of violence? I feel like
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: it would because there's people sitting in there all day
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: watching and dropping bombs. That's like the people are doing
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: the violence, even if the violence is happening elsewhere.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I guess the question is what is the magical
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: mechanic that is generating what Hearin is smelling? Is he
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: smelling the trauma done to your own soul when you
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: commit violence? Right? Is it like the Tinker thing where
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: it's like, if you do violence, you are harming yourself, Like,
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: is that actually what Hearin is smelling is like the
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: harm done to you by the act, Because then yeah,
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: I think signing a piece of paper would count. But
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: if it's like, you know, less navel gazy than that,
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: then maybe not.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: Fooji is saying, could he smell a noble that arranged
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: for an assassination.
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: For a more in world example, Yeah, for.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: A more in world example, right, Like that's something he
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: could actually smell.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: I feel like in the books it's no, it's like
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: the he would smell the assassin.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he smells the act of violence. I feel like
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: there has to be an act involved, right, and so
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: a stabbing of a knife.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: Push pushing a button doesn't count.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: Ah see, that's that's that's the.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: Question we're getting in the question just pushing a button count?
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: Is it about how proximate you are to the act,
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: because that's where the drone thing comes into play, right,
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: that's the.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: Whole Well, in the same way that I mean is
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: pulling back an arrow and shooting a bow, right because
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: you're remote.
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: And like that takes a lot more skill.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's you know the same thing, like the
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: arrow impacts them at a distance. From where you are,
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: you pushed a button, a signal was communicated, in this
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: case a signal of mass rather than a signal of electronics.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: But then there's an impact and the person dies right like.
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: You're far So does hear and smell ranged weapons?
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: And I feel like he has to right, like you smell? Yeah,
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: Like but where does he smell it? Does he smell
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: it where the bowman is? Or would he smell it
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: where the people are getting shot and injured?
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: I feel like he would smell a bowman. I feel
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: like that, Like if he's like infal Dara and someone
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: shoots an arrow and here and like runs around and
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: like finds the person who shot the arrow, Like I
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: feel like that. That's a scenario that makes sense.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: Because I feel like he's smelling two different things, right,
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: He's smelling the violence itself and then the the person.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: It sticks to the person as they move around as
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: well and fades over time, So he smells both the
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: sights and the trail of the person where they go.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: So I feel like he smells both.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: So yeah, it's just how far back up the chain
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: does it go. I think it has to be the
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: person who actually pushes the button. If you write the order,
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: you're not going to trigger here in But if you're
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: the one who pushes the button, no matter how far
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: away the act happens, the button pushers go to be
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: the one who who smells that.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: I agree, you can't just say you were a baying orders.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: He still did the violence.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: Right, exactly. Literally, we as a civilization did decide that
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: following orders is not an excuse. We did decide that,
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: despite what some people apparently think, still in the year
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: of Our Lord twenty twenty five.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: Which doesn't mean you are immune from prosecution because you
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: gave the orders, right, Like, it's still a black.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but we're talking about here and here, not international law.
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: Hearing is a slightly more specific thing.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: Right, right.
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: He smells the acts of violence, right, and then some
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: of the violence. There's a few examples where the violence
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: is so corrupt and so damaging and influenced by so
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: much evil, he smells something on top of that.
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I do think that touching the true power
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: probably is factoring into it. But the naturals barrow thing
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: has got to be just really massive. That's there's no
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: other mechanic in the world that could kill as many
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: people at the same time, right, Like, there's nothing else
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know in their world. They've only just figured
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: out prototype cannons.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: Oh you, I mean I think the one power. I
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: think not necessarily bail fire, but the one power for sure.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: Oh sure, Yeah. I was thinking of the mundane world,
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: the mundane, regular world of normal armies and kings and stuff, like,
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: they don't have weapons anywhere near that catastrophic. So you
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: know it's going to stand out to hear in sense,
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: is what I'm saying.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: Other than somebody's like the White Cloaks lining up villages
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: of people and just cutting throats like one after the other, right.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: Like, yeah, that would be comparable. It would still take longer,
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: but yeah, yeah, just like actual mass murder, what the
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: White Cloaks are capable of.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: I believe it absolutely one hundred percent, and we see
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: them doing it, right, Like there are villages that are
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: emptied out because of the White Cloaks, and like we
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: never get that POV. But like there's empty villages that
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: were used to be full of people that aren't anymore
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: because the White Cloaks were there.
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I do assume they took a lot of
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: people to be oh, I don't indenture surfance No.
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: Because isn't there one where? Like they're trying to travel
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: in secret and like it's the questioners, but they just
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: wipe out a whole village just to keep the keep
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: them quiet and Bornhold's like we could have gone around.
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah that happened anyway. So here In and Rand have
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: the negotiations or here and does not get to have
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: a reunion with Rand. He simply has to operate as
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: the mouthpiece of the Borderlanders and receive Rand's wrath as
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: a result.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: Which is basically he says well for small rants like well,
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: I don't I don't get angry, and then proceeds to
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: get incredibly irate and angry that the Borderlanders are in formatting.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I don't get angry. Yeah you do, Yeah
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: you do.
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I need even has a thought at one
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: point like what's up with this anger or whatever he
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: wants to call it, Like whatever he's calling it, I'm
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: calling it anger. He can call it something else, which.
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: Mood so and then we get so once he finds
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: out that they're in formatting, he just basically cuts off
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: their kur and is like peace out, I'm going to
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: go there and we get the double gateway insta hop.
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: I saw you.
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: Roll your eyes in the second I said that, Oh man, yeah, no,
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: it's It's both one of the most clever and most
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: infuriating things that Sanderson does, which is just like he
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: op's gateways instantly.
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: Which, like, to be fair, Robert Jordan did set up
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: the rules to be broken that way. It's it's it's
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: it is there on the page. This is one of
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: Sanderson's great strengths is thinking way too hard about how
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: the magic system could work. But like it just feels
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: like suddenly we've got technology whizbangs. In my fantasy, if
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: magic was supposed to be like our cane and difficult,
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: not right clever.
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: And like and it does, it feels like, okay, so
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: we're just gonna you know, end of Game of Thrones,
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: people got really upset because characters were teleporting all over
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: the place and weren't traveling real distances. And now just
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: in story, it's like, okay, we're just gonna ignore distances
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: from now on, and our characters can appear anywhere at
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: any time with no cool down and no penalty.
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's been You start to get into the
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: higher levels in your D and D campaign and you
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: just have like god powers and more actions per turn
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: than you know what to do with, and it's like
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: skimming was enough.
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: We just we didn't really was like I would rather
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: see him just skim there and be like let's go,
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: like there's not that many people.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: It's not like it's that far away, Like right, yeah, No,
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: I thought skimming was a fine mechanic and then gateways
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: for when you want to be fancied like this whole ooh,
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: look at me, I'm so clever. It's just like it's
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: skimming not good enough for kids these days, you know, m.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: So and this whole like I never thought of that, okay, Eve, right,
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: Like I just I should have thought. It feels almost
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: like Sanderson's saying, like, aren't I so clever? Even I
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: need didn't think of this.
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: Uh huh yeah, And I'm like, yes, you're a very
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: clever boy. And I sit down continue writing like whatever.
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: Do you think it comes from the voice in his
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: head LTT or do you think it's just I think
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: it's Rand being clever.
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's just Sanderson making Rand more clever
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: than he's been before. And also Rand has historically been
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: a kind of clever person, and like he was paired
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: with Agwaine for a long time and she is very clever.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: Like it's not out of character for them to just
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: think about a thing and come up with a new
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: way of doing it. But I think it's mostly Sanderson's
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: self inserting.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean a GWayne discovered how to channel le
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: her travel basically completely independently.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, from first principles and just tinkering and thinking, she
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: figured it out. So I'm not surprised that Rand's mind
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: might also idly think about how to make traveling more
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: efficient while he's you know, just in the shower or
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: whatever shower thoughts.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: Because we did get I believe we had Jordan's setting
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: up that you don't need to learn the area to
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: make short gateways.
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: M Yeah, he said that.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: And I think he also said that making a gateway
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: helps you learn it, like if you made a gateway
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: to a place, like making that gateway in that same
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: location helps you get back out again. Right, So both
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: both of those things were true. But I wish it
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: just helped. I wish it slowered the cool down, not
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: made it instant. Yeah, I wish he still had to
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: sit there for like twenty minutes or something like that, you.
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: Know, brooding, yeah, marinating.
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: Holding the gateway open from the last place or something.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, but no, that's not what we get.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: No, we get we get into travel, which is again
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: not out of the realm. And it's fine, especially when
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: you got this battle coming up, and it's just like, Okay,
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: we're not gonna have to worry about the cool downs.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: We're just gonna let them teleport anywhere, and if if
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: it's something where wouldn't have worked, we're gonna have to
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: do a short hot first and then just ignore the rest.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: Of the rules, right Yeah. And here in it's you know,
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: a ride back basically, which is cool. He doesn't have
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: a long ride back because you know, they go much
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: closer so that way they can overlook the army, which
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: is encamped around the city but within the boundary of
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: the Guardian right farmatting. Essentially, it's kind of like with
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, I need thinks about how the island itself
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: looks kind of like Tarvalent, and I think it kind
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: of looks like Tarvalent under siege because it's got the
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: city and then the river and then an army immediately
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: on the other side. Only in this case, obviously it's
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: not a siege, it's just camping on their front yard.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: And that business ran off. I remember he got captured
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: by farmatting right and was like codswayn had to come
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: get him out. And that was right before he cleansed
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: the source like that. He did not have a good time.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: He was put back in prison. That was definitely super triggering.
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: He couldn't channel, right, like this hole, they're trying to
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: put me back in a box. I don't want to
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: let anyone else have access power over me, right, I
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: want by taking away the one power you are essentially
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: taking away. You know, he could go in with enough
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: armies that it wouldn't be a problem, but I think
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: he's very much worried about. There's also an area in
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: formatting where men can't channel and women can.
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the ring that the armies currently can't do. Yeah, yeah,
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: where the thirteen Eyes to Die that are with the
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: Borderlanders are located. Right. Why would rand go into that
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: zone with thirteen eyes to die?
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: Why who can channel and he wouldn't be able to? Yeah,
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: that's crazy, right.
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: Ridiculous ridiculous. I mean, I can see where he's not
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: prone to take this willingly, you know, like obviously as
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: zen rant, he does whatever. But like a reasonable person
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: would be like, I'm a little sketched out right now.
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: But you also see why the Borderlanders do it because
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: they are commanded. They're told, hey, you need to kill
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: this man if he can't answer the question correctly. And
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: they're like, well, how the fuck do we do that? Well,
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: we need him in a trap, we need him in
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: a place where we can actually stop him. So I
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: get why they set it up, but I get also
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: why he's not willing to go in it is it
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: is a place of ambush.
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: It is a box. He is correct to identify it
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: as a box.
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: And so he goes to like he pulls out the
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: Choden call, which starts to glow right, and he's like, oh,
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to hurt the city. The city's fine.
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: I'm just going to destroy the fucking armies, which is like, no,
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: you're going to the last battle. These are the Borderlanders.
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: You cannot come down on the armies with lightning and fire.
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: First of all, they're innocent people. Second of all, they're
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: on your side. And you need them to fight the troulics,
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: Like you cannot do this, rand this is crazy.
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't murder huge swaths of your own allies
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: that you desperately need because twelve people have miscommunicated in
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: an email like that's ridiculous, It's ridiculous. It's a completely
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: disproportionate response, like, yes, these are armies that have loyalty
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: and a license to do violence, and you need them.
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: Why would you kill them just because their rulers have
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: not been properly clear with you about their mysterious prophecy,
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: Like totally, I disproportionate. You tuck, you hit reply all.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: It's your your fault for ending the world, not the
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: reply all.
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: Now you're bringing down the server. It can't handle the traffic.
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: And stop replying to all, saying stop replying to all.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: It doesn't work that way. Yeah, take me off this list,
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: please please. Yeah.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: So rand Is is seriously considering some ridiculous war crimes
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: and Nineva's like will you please not do that? Like, please,
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: for the sake of all that is reasonable, would you
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: please not do war crimes that it's so uncool right now.
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: And she's she's like, I wish that had melted away
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: like the female half, which reminds you, A, that's what
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: happened to the female half and why she doesn't have
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: like a comparative power, and B it's like, yeah, he
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: really doesn't use this for anything important until he destroys
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: it on the mountaintop, right, Like, this is done. Calendor
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: is the thing he needs for the last battle. He
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: does not need chod and call. Right, that is not
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: the item that's going to help him win because it's
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: not about power. It's about having the ability to channel
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: the true power, right, because the true power is the
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: thing that allows him to seal off the dark One,
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: essentially turning his own you know, stop hitting yourself. Essentially
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: he takes the hand and punches him in his face
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: with his own hand, right, Like, that's that's what being
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: able to channel and control the true power and turn
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: that against the dark one, because it's like, go ahead
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: and corrupt it.
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: It's your own hand, right, yeah, exactly, Exactly if you
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: bite the hand that punches you, that's okay because you're
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: just biting yourself.
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: And then what he's doing is grabbing that hand with
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: sidar and sidean right and like using that to wall
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: everything off, so like.
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: But yeah, he needs to chow it on call to
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: cleanse the source and then to cleanse his soul. Right,
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: That's what the Chi Yeah Call is really there for,
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: is to give him that that temptation that he is
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: able to destroy on the mountain top. It really is
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: a focal item in that last Veins of Gold ritual,
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: so to speak.
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: And the Children Call was created to cleanse the source, right.
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: That seems to have been its whole purpose in being created.
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: Wasn't it created to do something in the war of
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: power and then it never got used? We don't know.
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was just an ultimate weapon against
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: the Dark Side.
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: But it was built before the Taint existed.
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: Yes, And my understanding is the Children Call, the building
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: of them, was the threat that pushed the Dark Side
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: to start winning because they were so afraid of them
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: they essentially and then because they were winning, Rand I'm
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: sorry LTT did his final strike, but it was really
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: basically like the Children Call escalated to the point where
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: it was endgame for both sides.
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: So that's why they never got used, was because both
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: sides finished their knockout fight before the thing could actually
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: come into play. Huh. Interesting. So something to do with
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: dealing with the Dark One in a really intrinsic way
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: was clearly the point, even though the taint didn't literally exist,
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: but it was an appropriate scale problem to point the
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: Children Call at because that is just the dark ones,
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: like corruption in the world getting purged.
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, simonosa I says, the Dark Side took over the
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: territory they're being built in, And I guess my head
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: canon is they took over that territory because they were
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: being built there, and that was the surge that led
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: to the Dark Side because the Dark Side was winning.
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: Right when Rand did his strike on shale Goool, they
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: were losing the battle. So you know, my head canon
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: is like it it was this, like the light was
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: building the Children Call that forced the Dark Side to
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: push into territory they hadn't done before they took the
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: Children Call. That caused the Light Side to start losing,
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: which forced the strike on shale Gool. It's sort of
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: how my head cannon goes in terms of the sequence
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: of events, right, because.
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: We don't have a lot to go on. And yeah,
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: with the parallels to World War two and also Star Wars,
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: like yeah, it you know, it's probably in it's fine
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: to head canon that those patterns from art and history
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: may apply here as well.
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: Damn it, we got the death Star plans. We have
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: to escape with it anyway.
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: Like Western Riders have one story that they're constantly chasing
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: the dragon on.
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: We talk about Moonlight, which is Ninive's horse, which is
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: this is the only mention of that horse. I think
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: it's really there just to be like, Bella's a better horse.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: Where is she?
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she gets mentioned like three or four times throughout
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: this chapter is like part of Nineve's like increasing irritation
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: with her whole situation of just like, Okay, this horse
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: is too mild, this horse isn't right. I need a
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: better horse. I need a horse like Bella is a
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: good horse. Like it's it's almost like Egwayne's chair in
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: terms of just like being a little thread in the background.
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: But I don't think it's for anything to do with Ninive.
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: I think it's just there to remind us that Bella
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: is the best horse.
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: I think it's just a little fan service. I think
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: it's a little nod the fact that like Bella is
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: the creator and everybody loves her, and like where has
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: she been? Because like, she's not mentioned for a couple
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: of books, and then Sanderson's like, oh, yeah, she's hanging
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: out in the White Tower or in the Rebel camp stables.
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she's fine, but she hasn't had some page time
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: in a while. So a mention of her is good.
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: We need these crumbs.
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: Mention of Tam a little foreshadowing. My feet started on
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: this path the moment Tam fell and found me crying
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: on that mountain. It's like, maybe Tam can divert you
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: from that path as well.
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe Tam needs to be there with you at
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: the end because he was there at the beginning.
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: So she begs him not to kill them, and he acquiesces.
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: He's like, all right, fine, I won't kill them today,
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: and then he sends here and back with you know,
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: join me or be left behind. I'll give a shit
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: whatever whichever one you want to do.
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: It's a good threat. It's a better threat than join
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: me or die, because this actually pricks at what the
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: Borderlanders most will, their honor to protect the borderlands. Yeah,
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: their honor exactly.
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: Here and stayed behind. He looks shaken. His reading with
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: Lord Rand had obviously been far from what he expected.
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: Me too here and me too.
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, all of us are with you here, and we
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: all hurt for you.
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: In this moment. And I feel like that's almost why
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: he did it, is to be like, yeah, Rand's a dick.
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: He's going to be a dick to Hearing, And so
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: you can sort of feel that like strangeness because you're like, man,
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: that feels really bad.
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, as a reader, you're like, but this isn't the
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: Rand that we've been with. This is a different, darker
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: we need to fix kind of Rand now because Hearan
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: is like we all feel good for hearing. Hearing's like
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: the human cast equivalent of Bella, Like he's perfect, he
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: can do nothing wrong, you know, and Rand just treated
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: him like he was completely wrong. And yeah, it was
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: a good chose on Sanderson's part. I just wish RJ
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: had done more.
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: In the meantime, I guess as thanks for that, Rand
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: gives her the thing she asked for earlier, because he's
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: I think there is part of him that's really he
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: didn't do that right, Like there's part of Rand that
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: didn't want to kill his allies.
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: But yeah, because he is still Rand inside with all
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: these defense mechanisms, he is Rand under all that.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: So he tells her that the statue, you know, he
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: describes a statue that's near where Parent is, and we
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: find that's on the road between Johanna and Luguard. Yeah,
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: sort of about halfway there, sort of in mur and
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: Dy kind of south of White Bridge.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, because it's very close to where Parrin met
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: Elias and met no Gnome and all of that stuff
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: for back in that part of the world in.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: General, Giladawn, Murande, Altara, they all kind of overlap in
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: this little area where the road cuts through them, and
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: they're just on the other side of the two rivers,
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: right there's this giant wall that can forest of shadows
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: that separates the road they're on from the two rivers,
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: but they're actually geographically pretty close. Yeah.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and yeah, this was one of those parts where
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: I when I was first reading three D's I was like, oh,
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: so the timelines have like gone flying off in wildly
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: different directions because Parent is nowhere near a statue like that,
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: like this description here. When I was reading it the
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: first time, I'm like, but Parent's nowhere near a statue
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: like that. So either Rand is lying or Paren. We
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: have a lot of backtracking on the timeline to catch
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: up with Paren and like, you know, now, I know
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: we do, but yeah, that was I remember reading it
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: the first time, being like I would remember if Paren
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: was near a statue like that. Excuse me, when will
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: he get to a statue like that?
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: Right, that's going to give us a time sink later, right, Like, yes.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: When he gets to that statue, then you know, oh,
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: we're catching up with the end of gathering Storm.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: Cool. So that's that's a pretty good time stamp. And
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: there's a couple of visions like that. Ktswayne names the statue.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: She said, it's a Mahan Rukhan old tongue name, but
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: there's no no parts of that appear in the Old
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: Tongue dictionary as any other words, so I don't have
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: a good translation for that. As far as I can tell,
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: there's no indication of the translation and no parent clues
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: from other known words in the old tongue. According to
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: Encyclopedia Watt huh interesting.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's a She describes it as a statue
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: that never actually got finished. It's a partially completed statue,
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: so there's some unfinished Old tongue comprehension construction.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: I guess the Old Tongue has never been finished either.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: Is language, I don't think, you know. Apparently Jordan was
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: not a linguist.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: So yeah, we've gone back to Tyrs. That's where we
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: are now, and it's super toasty, and i Neive thinks
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: about how she shouldn't be wearing wool because the servants
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: all look cooler and.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: Linen, Yeah, Lenin's great.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: Linen is great. She thinks about Matt and how she
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: embarrassed herself in front of the Daughter of the Nine
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: Moons by defending him, which I just I think it's
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: cute that she sprang to Matt's defense ahead of her own,
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: like thoughts, like she just defended Matt and then after
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: the fact was like, oh no, I made a total
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: fool of myself. But like that's how much you care
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: about Matt Ninive And she thinks about how she feels
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: bad about abandoning him under a wall in Abu Dhar,
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: which like, yes, you should feel bad about that.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but she had to flee with a can and
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff because of the sean Chan
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: right she would have been captured, I.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: Know, but she should still feel bad about it. Both
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: things can be true.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: And I think her defending Matt to the Empress to
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: Tuan was one of the greatest moments of ninive right
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: that we cheered that at the moment.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: So like her the moment, it's it's cute that she's embarrassed.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And it's totally just embarrassment of like, oh,
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: I hope he's like actually not being a scoundrel, because
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: if I defended him and he went off into the scoundrel,
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be super embarrassed. It's like vouching for
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: somebody at work and later later finding out they were
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: like stealing from the company and being like, ooh, whoa.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: I can't imagine that would be really weird.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: One thing I want to talk about is the rain.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: So they left and when they return there was a
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: wet scent to the air, a smell of new rain,
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: and she could feel that she'd missed a sprinkle, not
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: enough to clear the air or money the ground, but
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: enough to leave a wetted sections of stone and shaded corners.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: So one of the issues with this constant overcastness is
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: that it never actually rains. Right, it's overcast, but it's
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: not raining. But while they're gone. There's a sprinkle, And
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: I was trying to find some meaning to that, and
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: I really couldn't. Are symbolism to it, and I really couldn't.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: But it feels like if the dragon's away, maybe there's
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: a chance of normal weather, or maybe there was like
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: some tears falling with him, like almost destroying the Borderlanders,
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: or just Sanderson forgot that it wasn't supposed to rain.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: Well, it didn't rain very much, so it doesn't.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: Know, it doesn't really count. It's a little sprinkle, But yeah,
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: I thought one of the issues with this constant overcastness
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: is that they're not rain clouds. They're storm clouds, and
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: the storm is coming.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: I wonder if that means that the atmosphere is slowly
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: accumulating more and more water like as the land is
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: drying out.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: Like well, think about it, like what makes their able
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: to absorb more moisture?
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: Heat?
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: Right, and so heat and energy, and so you have
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: all the energy of the Dark One coming and the
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: twisting of the pattern, and yeah, you don't necessarily need
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: to fall physical laws anymore because this is the Dark
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: One corrupting things. So like moisture and energy could be
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: accumulating in the atmosphere and building and building and building
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: way beyond when it would be reasonable physically for that
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: to keep building.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which then means that there could be some really
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: catastrophic storms that are going to get unleashed around the
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: world as the Dark One's control of things slips, et cetera,
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: et cetera. There's gonna be a lot of rebalancing.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: Those storms are also mirroring what's going on in of
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: Ran as the pressure is building and he's pushing down
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: that anger. That's just like, right, we're waiting for the
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: storm to erupt, which is his anger, and he's just
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: pushing it down, pushing it down, pushing it down, and
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: it builds and builds and builds and builds. And so
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: maybe we saw a little bit of a release of that, right,
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: a little bit of a little bit of emotion. He
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: did lose a little bit of control, he did let
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: them live, right, So there's just that little bit of
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: a sprinkle of rain that came out, Just that little
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: bit of a release of emotion that happened. That's the
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: best I got.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe maybe I'll take it.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: Min is avoiding Rand right because men feels embarrassed. She
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: feels like a liability, so she is letting him. She's
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: hanging out with Codsway basically.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and I Neve goes to find kadswayin because
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: you know, she has this information and yeah, it looks
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: at men and it's just like, yeah, being around Rand
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: is hard, even if you're not his partner, but being
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: his partner it must be really tough. So I guess, yeah,
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: kat swayn is better company.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: We get a little backstory about how Nate and Neve's
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: room was totally cut off from you know, She's like,
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: I guess I was. I had to escape using a gateway,
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: and she doesn't consider that like other people might be
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: stuck in rooms that are totally cut off and like
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: dying and like they don't have like couldn't you like
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: maybe think about that and reflect on it. She's like,
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: I was mildly inconvenienced. I had a gateway, and it's like, yeah,
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: you can channel imagine all the people who couldn't.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was my thought too, was like how many
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: people are dying because they got stuck in rooms with
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: outdoors and the hallways didn't shift back before they died
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: of thirst.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: Or got stuck in rooms that just don't exist anymore, right.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: Like yeah, yeah, or turned into a wall.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: There's no guarantee the dark one doesn't just eliminate you, right.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And yeah, the fact that she doesn't think about
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: the implications is just like, ugh, mild inconvenience, good thing,
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: I have a gateway, It's like, but.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: I think in a lot of ways, it's like change.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: It's happening all around us, and we're all doing everything
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: we know how to do to solve the problem. But
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: the problem is bigger than us individually, and so we
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: just sort of live with it, and when it inconveniences us,
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: we do what we can to walk around it.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: We turn on our ac if it gets too hot
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: outside and just keep living our lives. If something floods,
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: we no longer have insurance in Florida, and we just
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: keep living our lives, you know, like.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: We can do better.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if something burns down, we just let the community
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: burn down and don't rebuild there, you know, or we
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: do because we have forest fires on this coast on
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: a regular yearly basis now.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: Deserve so much better from our society.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: So you know, it's not so much that we are
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: adapting to climate change as we're just kind of working around.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: It, suffering through it while other people die first. Very honorable, and.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: I think there's something similar going on here.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: Right, No, Ninivea is trying to save the world three
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: different ways at the same time. I can see where
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: maybe she doesn't have the brain space to think about
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: scullerymaids getting stuck in doorless rooms. But still I would
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: have liked the omnipresent narrator to spend a little time on.
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: It, Yeah, or at least think about that, Like, thank
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: god she had gateways, you know, think the creator she
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: had gateways, because you know, maybe just the line about
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: like how maybe this is where some of the missing
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: people have gone, that.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: Would have been a good line. Maybe some of the
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: disappearances could be explained through this. She should talk to
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: someone about that, and that that would have been a
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: good way to solve that one line. One line we
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: could have afforded that we really are on a rewrite bender.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: Today, we really are. Yeah, yeah, with this chapter. Yeah,
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: it just feels like a lot of wasted potential, that's all.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: Like this particular plot line right leading up to him
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: having his revelation feel like the whole like Oh, your
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: father's here and you almost killed them. Therefore you need
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: to go on this like mind bender thing. Like, there's
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: so many different ways to approach that. And I don't
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: think that Tam it was an emotional moment, but it
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: doesn't for me make the most sense plot wise.
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, hence the desire to rewrite everything.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: And there's other ways to get that emotional moment with
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: him while having other things leading up to the breaking moment.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So kat Swain praises Ninive, and Ninive gets mad
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: at herself for feeling pleased at the praise. But like,
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, have you seen how many compliments Kat Swayne
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: has handed out We are still counting. On one hand,
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: it is actually worth being pretty proud of yourself that
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: you've got a gold star from Kat Swayne.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but in a lot of ways, I see it
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: as a parallel to the way the shan Chan trained
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: the Demani, which is punished them constantly and only occasionally
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: give them praise, and then the praise feels amazing.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is Katswayne's sort of bullying tactic. It's not great.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: It is effective, but it's not great. I think we're
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: supposed to see the parallel with Adam Lorna and Agwayne,
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: right where Ada Lorna is surprised that she feels good
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: that Agwayne is like, wow, you're so strong, like in
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: the aftermath of losing her warders during the battle and
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: all that, and she's like, why did this person make
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: me feel? But like the dynamic is totally different here
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: because kat Swayne is the elder one who's supposed to
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: be in charge. It's so yeah, but it's great proof
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: that Kats Swayne is very effective with her bullying or
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: not effective accomplished. She's a high level bullier. She's good
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: at what she does.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: And the way I see it also is that Ninive
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: respects Codswain and therefore respects advice from her.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's what it really means is you don't
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: get pride from compliments from people you don't respect, right, right,
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: no matter what she says, she's feeling pride. Therefore there's respect.
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: And so she demands to know the whole plan before
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: she reveals where parent is.
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: Right, just like Rand was cagey about handing the information over,
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: she is then going to try to sell the information
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: for the highest.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: Bid, and then what kind of follows is a whole
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 2: philosophical de bait about whether or not they can depend
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 2: on Men's visions in the future, because like Correll, who's
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: one of one of Codswayne's Diaidie who's like hanging out,
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: is like, oh, we know, we've already won because Men's
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: having visions about the future that happened after the last battle.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: So for those visions to become true, which they have to,
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: that means we have to win the last battle. And
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 2: Codswayn's like yeah, except it's really sort of it. Men
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 2: can see what's happening on the film, but if someone
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: burns the theater to the ground, it doesn't matter what
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: was on the film.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: Technically, Men's the one that makes that argument. In Katswanne
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: just backs her up. Well, okay, so Men is not
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: a sexy lamp. Men is a PhD psstudent.
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: Yes, Men, you're right. Men does make that argument first
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: and basically says, it doesn't matter what I can see
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: if there's you know, no pattern for that to occur
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: on right.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, It's like I I yeah, her her power exists
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: while the pattern exists. It doesn't cut off a certain point.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: It just won't exist if it doesn't exist. It's very simple.
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 2: I feel like all of her post last Battle prophecies
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: have to be started with if we win the last battle,
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: then blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Right, they're
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: all conditional kind of the way that like she's had.
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: I had a couple of other conditional prophecies. Two that
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: we know of, right, there's the suon Gareth Brynn, and
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: there was another.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: One Gwenna going the two paths, that's.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: Right, and so like I feel like there's there's this
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 2: two path one too, that's like, you know, one goes
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: to a knoll which is the dark one winning and
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: the end of everything, and the other is assuming that
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 2: is not true, follow this loop.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And we also have sort of here
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: like a scene it's almost like a repeat of the
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: Naturals Barrow revelation where nin he was like, oh yeah,
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: so he almost did Naturals Barrow again, like because it's like,
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, did he take it? The Borderlander proposition was
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: did he take it? Well, well, he almost did war
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: crimes and that's why I have information. And then Kat
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: Swayne gets to iterate again. Her goal is to make
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: Rand laugh iterating it again for us as the audience
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: that Kat Swayne is here to help Rand. You know,
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: Nine's like, oh, I won't let you hurt him. She's like, well,
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: why would you think I want to hurt him? I
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: want to make him learn how to laugh again.
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: Because of all the history that you have with him.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: That's why, right exactly. But that's why she has to
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: say it out loud is because her actions do not
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: communicate that clearly. She has to say it with her
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: words in order for us to know what her actual
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: goals are, because her actions don't look like trying to
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: make him laugh. So then yeah, Nineva's like, I literally
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: can't bargain with this information, like it's literally too important,
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: even though she wants to bargain for it, like she tries,
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: and then they have this whole back and forth and
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: she has to sell for exactly the price that Kat
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: swayn asked.
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but once she gives the information, she gets the information, right.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: Like right, Yeah, it's a little bit of a positive
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: bait and switch there, right.
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: Right, It's like, I'm not going to tell you to
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 2: get in the information. Well, I'm not giving me the
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: information until you tell me, Okay, well, fine here here, Like,
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 2: why did the order matters so much? It's all that
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: it's powerplay between the two of them.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, it's because it's two powerful women doing pecking
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: order of things. And yeah, now I got the reout.
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: That's it.
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: I think that's where we are here.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: Okay. Rand had to change for land for them all,
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: and she had no idea what to do other than, unfortunately,
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: to trust kat Swain. N Nieves swallowed her pride and spoke,
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: do you know the location of a statue of an
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: enormous sword fall into the earth as if stabbing it?
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: Corell and Maurice glanced at each other in confusion. The
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: hand of aman Rukhan cad Swain turned from men with
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: a raised eyebrow. The full statue is never finished. From
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 1: what scholars can tell, it rests near the Jahanna Road.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: Paren is camping in its shadow. Kat Swain pursed her lips.
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: I assumed you would go eastward towards land al Thor
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: had captured. She took a deep breath. All right, we
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: are going for him right now. She hesitated, then glanced
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: at Nineve And answer to your question earlier, child, parent,
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: Actually isn't important to our plans. He isn't ninive, asked,
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: but Katswain raised a finger. There are people with him
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: who are vital, one in particular, and yeah.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 2: That's damn as we know. And just in case you
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: were wondering, Uh, someone asked Brandon Sanderson, what I'm on? Who? Whatever? Sorry?
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 2: What the stat name of the statue means? Response, stares
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 2: blankly for a long moment. What's been said on it before?
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 2: It's a sword sticking out of the earth called Swain
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: names it? Oh right, I don't know. You can probably
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: tell something about it from that, but it's not important.
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 2: Brandon Sanderson laughs again.
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: Wow, okay, all right.
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 2: So it appears to be a name pulled out of
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: a hat for a statue on a road, so that
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: we can pinpoint paren it was.
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: The end of the day and he had deadlines.
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I you know, I don't expect him
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 2: to remember every name of everything that he ever pulled out.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 2: He was probably was asked that question at a con.
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 2: He probably didn't remember writing that scene. There may be
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: something in the notes, right, but like he didn't have
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 2: them on them at the time, so I'm not gonna
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: say it has no meaning.
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: I got origins of the Wheel of Time right here.
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 1: Let me let me, let me try to look it up,
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: see if there's anything in it.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: There's nothing. It confirms what's there's nothing other than what's
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: in the books.
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's a missed opportunity. Oh well, that's fine.
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: So this was fun ish. I guess we did a
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 1: lot of bitching about how the books were written.
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: We did. We did a lot of we did a
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: lot of rewriting. But I think, like I do think
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: this is a little bit of a missed opportunity where
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: you could have had so many more threads coming together.
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 2: And I've never been a huge fan of the tam
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: reveal that triggers. I love, Veins of Gold not so
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: much big a fan of Like I have daddy issues,
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: therefore veins of Gold. Yeah, I just feel like there
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: could have been other triggers.
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: No, Ran didn't have many other triggers to work with.
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: He was a pretty well adjusted person. It was really
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: only his daddy issues to work with.
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 2: WHI She's like, the one thing he didn't have was
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: daddy Isu. His dad was actually a really good dude. Like,
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 2: other than trying to live up to the expectations and failing, right,
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 2: like that's the best.
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: Well and learning that he was adopted, like yeah, yeah,
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: in the middle of a bunch of us. He had
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: a little bit of dad issues, but like they weren't
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: long lasting and intrinsic to his personality. They were very recent.
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 2: And he had and it's like, no, I've got a
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 2: good dad, and he like very quickly settled on, like no,
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: Tam was my dad, like he raised me. He was
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: a good dad, Like I don't need.
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think vans of Gold is daddy issues.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 2: No, I don't.
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: It's it's more it's kind of like what happened with
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: here and really is is being faced with someone who
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: remembers you before you became this broken version of yourself,
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: and like being faced with someone who knew you back
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: when you were a normal human being is.
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 2: Question shows you the changes.
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: Traumatizing and difficult, And it's not daddy issues. It's just
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 1: his dad is the person who can hold that mirror
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: up the most.
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 2: Clearly, right, right, Yeah, it's yeah, And I see this
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 2: the symbolism of coming back together. Right. He was the
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: abandonment and he hasn't seen them since the eye of
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 2: the world when he left them, didn't even really get
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 2: say goodbye, like and the way that sort of uncertainty
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: around his past comes back around and he gets it
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 2: confirmed right like, there's there's something to that. Just it
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: feels like there was more that could have been done.
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 2: That's all I'm saying.
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, for sure, I don't like it either.
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: It's just you know again, I think words need to
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: mean things, and I think daddy issues is separate from
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: whatever random tam have gone on.
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 2: Well I'm talking about like random John Dowin right, like.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: The Janduin doesn't come into that scene, comes into that scene.
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, I was.
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: Gonna say, I think that's my problem with it, is
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: that it reads like he has daddy issues and he doesn't.
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yeah, but we'll continue to bitch about it.
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: We'll keep working our hypotheses and figure it all out
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 1: the time we get there for sure, next.
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 3: Week, isn't it.
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: It's coming up real soon.
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, we don't have very long to work shop
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: and bitch about it.
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: No, no, you really don't. Thanks for the sympathy and
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: en talk for recording. I did get in a small accident.
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: I'm fine, my car is We'll probably be fine.
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the armsling has nothing to do with the.
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 2: Car, right. The arm sling is because I swam for
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: twenty years, wrecked my rotator cuff and then my dog
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 2: yanked on the leash and just caught me in a
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 2: bad place. And yeah, so I'm sure it's fine. I'm
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: sure there's no tendon damage that's permanent and there with scarring.
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 2: It's American health care. I don't need to know. I
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 2: don't want to know. Right. Yeah, it's like the rotator cuff.
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 2: It's for when I rotate my arm around, but it
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 2: turns around, turns out. If you do that a few
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 2: million times, those little rubber bands called tendons wear out
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 2: and tend to tear.
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, my biological father ruined his rotator cuff lifting heavy
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: objects over his head in grocery stores or bread trays
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 1: and bags of wheat and stuff. And then my stepfather
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 1: fucked up his rotator cuffs lifting heavy things over his
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: head as a contractor, you know, bags of cement and
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: ladders and dry wall. And it's I'm keeping my arms.
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 2: Down, if I'll be honest. The time that I think
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 2: I actually tore it was not when I was swimming.
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 2: It's when I was working out in the weight room
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 2: after practice and I was doing military press, which is
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 2: lifting weight directly up over your head, and that's when
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: I felt the pop. And it's been you know, it's
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 2: gotten better, but it's you know, that's the one time
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 2: where I felt like I was injured, and then I
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: had a couple of weeks where I really had to
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: couldn't use it, and then the injury has always been
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: fine since then, you know, but it does if I
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 2: move it in the wrong way, it does hurt.
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 1: So yeah, my chronic back pain is closer to my spine.
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: I have the quintessential under the shoulder blade, not thing
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: that's hurt ever since an injury in middle school right
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: got my shoulders. It's my back proper.
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 2: It's so funny how these little like child injuries really
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 2: donaldam childhood young person injuries, but you think you've healed
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 2: from you don't. Yeah, I think it's why old people
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: always like be careful with your body, because it's like
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 2: they're in their forties and fifties going, man, I wish
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 2: I hadn't injured myself right when I was younger, because
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 2: I'm feeling it now.
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 1: But also, like my injury was from me trying to
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 1: do high jump. I was in Pe and I knew
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 1: what I was doing, and I just fucked up one
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: high jump and like that this rib popped out, got
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: like dislocated or whatever. I had a chiropractor like put
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: it back, you know, like, and it's been prone towards
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: more injuries like that a couple of times. And like
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 1: and then I was playing cello for years and like
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: I guess hyper extending my back or something, and just
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 1: like and now I, you know, edit with my right hand,
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: and it's just like there's that repetitive chronic stress injury.
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 1: That's all still going back to that one point that
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 1: I remember fucking up that one beautiful June day in
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 1: middle school doing the fucking high jage.
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 2: It's why it's so funny when I see people in
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 2: fantasy like get injured or get stabbed and they like
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 2: recover from it in a week and they never mentioned
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: it again. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no,
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 2: that's chronic pain for the rest of your life. You
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 2: don't you don't just get better from that. That's not
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 2: not something. The one thing I've been re listening to
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 2: the Dresden Files because sometimes it's a good background noise.
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 2: And one of my favorite little plot points in there
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: is that the thing that makes wizards wizards and makes
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 2: them long lived and the ability to like last for
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 2: hundreds of years without dying is they can basically heal
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 2: from anything, not fast, but like their body never stops healing,
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 2: so eventually scar tissue goes away, and so it's like
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 2: he Basically they're like, you've taken so much damage. You
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: should be like a punch drunk wrestler or a boxer,
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: right that you've taken so many hits to the head,
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 2: but it doesn't bother you because you just eventually actually
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 2: fully heal.
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 1: Now that that seems like a thing, we could actually
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: try to figure out how to unlock in the huge
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: and genome with a little gene editing from like the
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: lizard regeneration whatever, you know. Like, no, not miraculous, healing
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: just never stops right, healing.
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: Right. The only issue with that is that's also the
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 2: definition of cancer healing.
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: No, cancer is cell division growth healing, yeah, true, true, yeah.
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: But healing healing is a measure of cell division, right,
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 2: Like you are creating new tissue through cell division, and.
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: You're getting rid of the old shit too.
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 2: It's just it's interesting to me that, like, yeah, there
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 2: is a link between cell division and growth and cancer, right,
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 2: it's very hard to have one without the other.
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: Now I've been reading Song of the Cell. I think
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 1: I mentioned this a couple episodes ago, and it's so
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: deep into a level of nerdery that I just don't
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 1: know how to follow. But like, this person's a very
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: compelling writer. The way that we understand how cells work
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: and how they work at all, the different kinds of
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: cells and what they do, and how when those things
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: go wrong you get different diseases and illnesses and cancers,
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: is just like it's very hard for me to follow.
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: But if you're trying to treat like a fantasy world
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: and I'm just learning the world building, okay, like the
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 1: House of This does that with the Alliance like this,
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 1: you know, it's like, why can warn fantasy worlds? Why
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: can't I learned cell biology? If it's written.
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 2: Because they're not narrated by Michael Kramer and Kate Redding,
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: That's why.
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, seriously, but this author, I'm forgetting his name, but
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 1: the author, he's very good. He's very he like switches
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: between like really deep cell biology and like very human
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: stories and like keeps the dynamic going back and forth
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 1: really well to make it make sense. You know, Like
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 1: I just listened to the chapter about AIDS and like
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 1: as he's like, so then in the eighties, this weird
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: illness came up. I'm like, oh, we're doing AIDS. Yes, yes,
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 1: that's where we're going. I'm sure enough. The next hour
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 1: is like is how we discovered from the symptoms and
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: worked backwards like what AIDS was, and like how it
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: fucks up the body and it's so weird, so fascinating.
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: And I have not read The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lax,
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 1: but I am aware of hay Law cells. My dad
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 1: told me that the book was a lot about the
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 1: legal fight over them and less about the science of
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 1: the hay Law cells, like that was like a much
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 1: smaller part of the narrative. So I haven't gotten around
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 1: to it.
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 2: But because the science is relatively simple, you know, you
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 2: can list all the things they've accomplished, but it's like, oh, yeah,
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 2: these are cancer cells that can live forever, and so
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 2: we can test out all these treatments on them and
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 2: duplicate them. And they're really easy to do that on
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 2: and they don't die in a petri dish.
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So, I mean, and the book title says it right,
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 1: it's it's about the life of Henrietta Lax and less
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 1: about the science that she made possible.
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 2: But there is some interesting like, oh, she's kind of immortal, right,
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 2: her cells live on forever.
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like she in us sense is still going like what,
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 1: it's kind of weird, especially with the part where she
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 1: didn't consent to it. That part is extra weird.
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 2: But you know, I I've subscribed more to that we
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 2: are information patterns rather than the cells and the DNA
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 2: necessarily that make us up. And so when the sort
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 2: of the pattern of our body disintegrates, we don't really
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 2: exist anymore.
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 1: Unless you subscribe to the theory that information cannot be destroyed.
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but that just because the information that you existed
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 2: cannot be destroyed doesn't mean that you yourself like continue
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 2: as an entity, right.
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I've just read some sci fi where
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 1: that was kind of the crux of a totally totally
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 1: wrestling with that. That's all I know. I don't have
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 1: a strong take. I just know it's a theory or
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 1: not a theory. But a sandbox.
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 2: I think that's one of those things where like it's
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 2: that people take the saying, which is like a kind
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 2: of a misunderstanding and a twisting of like information theory
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: and make it like, oh, there could be an afterlife
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 2: because you are information and informs can't be destroyed.
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, I mean it's it's a logical
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 1: extension for artists to make. That's that's what artists do,
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: you know. They take those edges of reality and they say,
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 1: but what if a little do X makin it in there?
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 2: It's the spin of electron is the thing we can't
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: get rid of. Like, the electrons can scatter all over
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 2: the place, and the organization that keeps them together take
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 2: constant energy input and that's an entry. Be can fuck
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 2: that up and no problem, right, Like and entropy we'll
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 2: get you, don't don't worry.
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 1: Oh man. I watched her really one of the most
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 1: I don't usually get existentially depressed from watching science videos,
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 1: but I watched one about how the entire history of
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 1: the universe as we know it is like a very
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 1: short part of the overall timeline, No totally, and like
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 1: the actual timeline goes all the way down to like
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 1: protons falling apart in like a trillion billion years or something,
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: and I just like, I am not normally existentially depressed
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: by science, but that one fucking hurt. It was like
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 1: because I think, I think if it is like the
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 1: universe as we know, it will like you know, do
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: a big crunch or a big rip or something in
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: like reset and start over a wheel of time like
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 1: and this was just like, No, it's just going to
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 1: keep entropying until even the entropy eats its own self
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 1: and then it will just keep going and there will
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: be nothing and nothing will ever change ever again, and
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 1: it'll just keep getting bigger. And I just like, no,
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 1: I don't like that.
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 2: I think there's some what can I say, reason to
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 2: believe that once everything settles out around that, like there's
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 2: enough quantum foam going on that you can get a
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 2: new Big Bang or something like that, right, like once.
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: Right, that's what I want to believe, yeah, yeah, like or.
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 2: Or there's an I kind of like the idea of
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 2: an infinitely and this is all you know sci Fi's
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 2: like slash Pops high the idea of an infinitely inflating
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 2: universe and that like if you have an infinitely inflating universe,
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 2: and you have a pocket where things slow down. That's
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 2: a new universe sort of start. That's a new big bang.
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 2: And so there's all these new big bangs going on everywhere.
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 2: But because the space in between the big bangs and
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 2: and the universes is separating so fast, they can never
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 2: communicate with each other. And so there's all these big
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 2: bangs going on all over the place, but they're just
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 2: being separated by dark matter. Yeah, right, Like, and also
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 2: we're fuck I mean, James Webb is telling us all
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 2: sorts of new stuff right like, we're learning. We're learning
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 2: that dark matter at all might not be like it's
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 2: the slowing down. We're looking at the third derivative now, right,
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 2: Because first it was like, oh, is the universe static
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 2: or is the universe changing? And we're like, oh, no,
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 2: it's changing, right, it's and then it's expanding. And then
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 2: it was like, ooh, there's a rate of expansion right, Like,
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 2: it's not just expanding, it's a single rate. The rate
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 2: is actually increasing, you know. And then we're going like, oh,
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 2: actually the rate at which the rate is increasing is decreasing,
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 2: is what we're discovering. So we're looking at what third
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 2: derivative at this point, right, it's kind of crazy, so
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 2: we don't understand and what is causing this effect because
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 2: it is at this point at least a third order effect.
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 1: No, it's it's the James Webspace telescope is one of
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 1: the coolest things, like in the history of astronomy, like
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 1: since Hubble, right, because we've had this just laundry list
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 1: of questions that were like, Okay, once James Web's online,
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 1: we're going to be able to answer this, this, and
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 1: this question. Like we've just had this this list, this
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 1: giant list of questions and basically everyone we're coming up
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 1: against it's like, oh, that's not what we thought it
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 1: was going to be. Oh nope, that's not what we
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: thought it was going to be. That is okay, back
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 1: to the drawing board. Uh, back to the drawing board.
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: Like everything that we've been testing against its observations has
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 1: been like, uh, okay, we got to rethink everything. Like
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 1: it's the most exciting freaking time in that regard.
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 2: Because there's the three things I've really heard of is
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 2: a we've got bigger galaxies than we expected to see
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 2: in the early universe with more.
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, more well defined defined.
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 2: More well defined. Yeh, heavier metals, right, we didn't expect
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 2: like that many. We expected mostly hydrogen and helium, right,
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 2: And we're seeing like a bunch of like carbon and shit, like, wait,
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 2: the stars haven't had time to make that yet. Where
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 2: it is? Where is it coming from? And we're seeing
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 2: like little red dots that have a very weird X
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 2: ray profile kind of indicate that something is going on
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 2: there that we don't expect. So there's like that we're
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 2: getting data that just doesn't conform to the idea that
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 2: if we track backwards from existing galaxies we're going to
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 2: get smaller, newer galaxies.
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's absolutely wild how many of our ideas about
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 1: the universe are being upset by these very solid observations
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: like oh no, yeah, oh no, because we're so wrong.
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 2: We're finally in the point where James Web has been
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 2: up there long enough that it's had like a year
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 2: or two to collect data, and then another year or
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 2: two for people to actually like really start analyzing that
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 2: data and start pulling like meaningful information out of the data.
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the papers are getting published and processed by like
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 1: regular pop scientists who can translate it out to the
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 1: rest of us and like, yeah, it's just from the
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 1: moment that it can came online.
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 2: And they've had a few arguments where some of the
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 2: like the bad evidence has been like dismissed and gotten
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 2: rid of, where people are like no, no, no, that's
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 2: not real, right, we've ruled that out right, So we've
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 2: had a few arguments where things that they thought So
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 2: the first year of data, there was a couple of
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 2: things that were like we might be seeing this effect
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 2: and then the effect goes away with more data.
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean Hubble had the whole being out a
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 1: focus thing at the beginning, you know, like it takes
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 1: a minute to get into the groove of using a
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 1: new space.
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 2: It's not even that, it's just like with a certain
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 2: amount of data, you're going to see stuff in the noise,
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 2: and with more data that that noise goes away and
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 2: all of a sudden you don't see the results.
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 1: So yeah, and now like it. Yeah, I'm so excited
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 1: about James Web. Like I was really like Hubble was
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 1: a very formative event in my childhood. I was a
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 1: very young child when it came online, so really like
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 1: defined my whole concept of astronomy, and like James Webb
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: really is like the second coming of Hubble, Like it's
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 1: just escalating our ability to look into space to such
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: an amazing degree because.
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 2: It's just we can look. It helps us look back
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 2: in time, which is also really cool. I think about it.
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 1: So much farther, so much farther, and.
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just like look at different frequency.
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: We thought we were going to see the edge of
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 1: time and no, absolutely not. We're just seeing that there's
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 1: more stuff.
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 2: Which yeah, I mean it's changing, which I think because
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 2: we have some holes. Right, we don't understand quantum gravity.
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 2: We don't understand how gravity fits in with the physics.
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 1: We know lots of things we don't know, like mostly
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 1: by the edd by the edge of time, I mean,
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 1: like the formation of early galaxies like we were saying.
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 2: And then a lot of ways we have seen the
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 2: edge of time because we've seen the background.
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 1: The CMB classic microwave background radiation.
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the background microwave radiation is the initial moment at
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 2: which lights started being able to pass through the galaxy, right,
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 2: because before that point everything was too dense, there are
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 2: too many like and then the universe went from a
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 2: plasma to gases and solids right, right, And so from
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 2: plasma to gas, and all of a sudden, light could
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 2: pass through the gas and we get all these X rays.
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 2: That's the CNB, right, and so's that's the edge of
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 2: the universe, right, So that moment matter essentially forms.
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: But like we thought we knew what we were going
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 1: to see between that and the most recently the farthest
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 1: back galaxies, and that gap between those two things is
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 1: full of stuff we didn't expect. It's maybe a much
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 1: bigger gap than we thought. Like we're there's just a
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 1: lot more questions than answers. And it's cool. It's a
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 1: good time to be obsessed with astronomy. It's a really
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 1: good time for that because some of the biggest and
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 1: smallest things can be helped with cosmology, like quantum physics.
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 1: Stuff is informed by our understanding of like the biggest things.
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 1: You know, it's all comes around.
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 2: Because you need the biggest things to have enough energy
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 2: to affect the smallest things, if that makes sense, right,
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 2: Like it's so.
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 1: Weird, how like what is it? Gravity is the weakest
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 1: of the sex forces, and yet it's the only one
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 1: that like we experience in like a tangible human sense.
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 2: I would say the other one we experience all the
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 2: time is electromagnetism, right, because pretty much everything, all your
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 2: interactions with the world around you that aren't keeping you
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 2: on the ground is electromagnetism, right, like light, sound, you
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 2: not phasing through your chair, right, being you being a
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 2: coherent atomic being, right, that's all depending on the electromagnetic force.
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 2: You don't see the weak force a lot because you
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 2: don't necessarily see atoms decaying.
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 1: That's not right, right, That's that's the thing. The forces
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 1: that only work at the atomic subatomic scale. It's like
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 1: there's no way to experience.
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 2: Them and the strong forces why atoms exist? Right, but
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 2: like you know, you are atoms, so like you're experiencing that,
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 2: but there's no Yeah, it's.
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 1: Literally possible to send yourself from the experience, which arguably
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 1: electromagnetism is kind of the same way. It's like, can
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 1: you experienced a thing without that? Kind of gravity is
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 1: pretty like we all get gravity. We've all been bit
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 1: on the ass by gravity, like you know, yeah, everyone
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 1: has tripped and fallen on gravity. That's just a thing.
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 2: Yeh No. And then I like the idea of like
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 2: space as an emergent property of time. You know. So
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 2: there's some theories around that that I heard recently.
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I've come across this before, that space and
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 1: time are emergent properties of something more fundamental.
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 2: And it's like you what, now, Well, time's so crazy
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 2: because like nobody can really agree on it, Like it's
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 2: all based on your relative acceleration in your your frame, right,
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 2: so right, no one really can agree on the sequence events,
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 2: but not necessarily what time anything happens, which is a
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 2: I'm not even gonna try and wrap my brain around
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 2: it or explain it. I would rather get into the
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 2: wheel of time.
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to The Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
• 1:38:55
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• 1:38:58
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• 1:39:02
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• 1:39:06
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• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: at Foxendravenmedia dot com.