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The Checklist For A Healthy Relationship · Two Broke Chicks

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  Speaker 1: This podcast is recorded on gadigal Land Always was, always
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  Speaker 1: will be Aboriginal Land.
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  Speaker 2: Hey chicks, I'm Zal and I'm ol and this is
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  Speaker 2: two Broke Chicks, the show that shares life lessons and
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  Speaker 2: tips to help make you rich in life. And today
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  Speaker 2: we are joined by Stephanie Rigg, certified relationship coach and
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  Speaker 2: host of the on Attachment podcast. Today we're chatting to
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  Speaker 2: Steph about attachment styles, the ingredients every relationship needs, and
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  Speaker 2: how to be a better partner.
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  Speaker 3: Welcome Steph, Thanks so much for having me. Guys, I'm
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  Speaker 3: happy to be here.
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  Speaker 2: We actually get so many questions and dms from the
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  Speaker 2: chicks about this sort of stuff, so we were like,
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  Speaker 2: let's bring an expert in.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: It's one of those things that when I meet people
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  Speaker 4: for the first time and tell them what I do,
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  Speaker 4: it's like ooh, and like everyone comes up with, like
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  Speaker 4: everyone's interested.
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  Speaker 1: I think, are you like a psychic? You know how
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  Speaker 1: whenever someone meets a psychic, they're like, tell me my future,
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  Speaker 1: and you're like, I'm a relationship back to it and
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  Speaker 1: they're like tell me my future.
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  Speaker 3: I love it.
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  Speaker 2: But before we get into the questions, we like to
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  Speaker 2: start with a life lesson of the week, So would
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  Speaker 2: you like to kick us off.
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  Speaker 4: Sure. I've actually been reading a book this week which
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  Speaker 4: is called The Comfort Crisis. It's not a new book,
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  Speaker 4: but it's a really interesting one by a guy called
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  Speaker 4: Michael Easter, and it's all about the power of getting uncomfortable,
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  Speaker 4: and so it's not really like a juicy lesson, but
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  Speaker 4: I think it's a good reminder that and it kind
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  Speaker 4: of ties into relationships that so much of our growth
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  Speaker 4: is in learning to sit with discomfort rather than like
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  Speaker 4: quickly reaching for someone or something to make that go away.
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  Speaker 4: Because I think that like that's where a lot of
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  Speaker 4: them will get into it. Like a lot of our
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  Speaker 4: attachment patterns are basically like how do I deal with
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  Speaker 4: stress and discomfort in relationships? So maybe the life lesson
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  Speaker 4: is something around a reminder to build our tolerance for discomfort.
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  Speaker 2: I love that because we live in such like a
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  Speaker 2: discomfort of a world, like everything is so easily fixed
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  Speaker 2: by any sort of service that you can access immediately. Yes,
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  Speaker 2: that when a lot of the time we're not used
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  Speaker 2: to having to kind of wait for things or be ye,
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  Speaker 2: sit in that discomfort. So I like that.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think our collective tolerance level is like pretty
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  Speaker 4: low for that and very quick to make discomfort a
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  Speaker 4: problem that needs urgent solving. And I think when it
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  Speaker 4: comes to relationships that can really backfire, that's me.
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  Speaker 3: We're getting.
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  Speaker 1: Urgent solver, like I reckon. That's probably my life's lesson
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  Speaker 1: of this week is that there's like it's just been
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  Speaker 1: a really intense week of like problem solving, just.
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  Speaker 3: Like workwise in the back end.
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  Speaker 1: And at one point it was just a situation of
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  Speaker 1: me going, Okay, you know, this is going to be
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  Speaker 1: a really uncomfortable phone call, but I'm just going to
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  Speaker 1: have it and doing that. And I definitely got off
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  Speaker 1: and cried, but like during the phone call, I like
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  Speaker 1: held my ground and blah blah blah blah blah. And
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  Speaker 1: after that, I'm like, do you know what, I'm actually
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  Speaker 1: a lot smarter for doing that really uncomfortable thing, even
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  Speaker 1: though I hated it every second, and I've made multiple
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  Speaker 1: jokes that I'm never doing it again, But like, you
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  Speaker 1: just get better and better at being in uncomfortable situations
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  Speaker 1: even though it's something that I hate, Like.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, oh, I didn't die, even though like my system
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  Speaker 4: it's like I didn't die. What other things might be
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  Speaker 4: able to do that I might not die from it.
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  Speaker 1: And that's the thing is I do think as well,
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  Speaker 1: when you're growing up, you sometimes get to an age
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  Speaker 1: that you're like, oh, I'm thirty and I'm supposed to
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  Speaker 1: be grown, but I literally still feel like a baby sometimes,
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  Speaker 1: and like you have those moments and I'm like, oh, wait,
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  Speaker 1: did the thing like a grown up does and I
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  Speaker 1: did a good job at it, and I'm okay and
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  Speaker 1: no one's dead and nothing's on fire, and it was
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  Speaker 1: just that's probably my life lesson of the week that
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  Speaker 1: as well. Sometimes the thing that you're dreading all the
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  Speaker 1: uncomfortable conversation doesn't won't go as badly as you think
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  Speaker 1: it will. And very oftentimes it doesn't go as badly
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  Speaker 1: as you think it will.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, idea of it, yeah, so much worse.
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  Speaker 2: And then also it's not hanging over you once you
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  Speaker 2: do it, Like you feel so much better once you
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  Speaker 2: do actually have that conversation.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, So I love that.
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  Speaker 2: My life lesson is a little bit different shift gears Witch.
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  Speaker 1: But I saw that a study.
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  Speaker 2: Found that the strongest friendships are based on shared dislikes, Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Which I was like, I can see that I feel like.
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  Speaker 2: The best friendship dynamics are when you hate the same
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  Speaker 2: things and people and stuff like. Yeah, I saw this
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  Speaker 2: study published in Personality and Social Psychology bulletin that found
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  Speaker 2: that bonding over shared dislikes, especially people or ideas, can
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  Speaker 2: create faster and deeper connections than bonding over shared likes.
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  Speaker 2: It's called negative social bonding, and it works because mutual
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  Speaker 2: dislikes feel more personal, more intense, and signals compatibility in values.
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  Speaker 1: Know what. That's why I work best friends are like different, like.
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  Speaker 4: We're in the trenches of this hellscape together. That actually
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  Speaker 4: reminds me. I can't remember where I saw it, but
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  Speaker 4: it was years ago and the people created a dating app.
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  Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure it was called Hater, and it was.
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  Speaker 4: On that very premise, so it was like your whole
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  Speaker 4: profile was like the shit you hate, and you'd match
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  Speaker 4: with people you'd just like bond over.
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  Speaker 2: Like, Oh, that's so funny, I think you go, let's
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  Speaker 2: jump into the question. But anybody who doesn't know what
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  Speaker 2: are the attachment styles and can you run us through
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  Speaker 2: three signs of each?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, So attachment styles are born out of attachment theory,
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  Speaker 4: which was originally a body of work in like developmental
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  Speaker 4: psychology in the nineteen fifties looking at infant caregiver style.
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  Speaker 1: Wow, I didn't realize it.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like it's old Yale.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah. And it was only in like the late eighties
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  Speaker 4: nineties I believe that they started kind of extrapolating from
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  Speaker 4: that and going like, wait, we can actually observe similar
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  Speaker 4: sorts of patterns that we see between infant and caregiver
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  Speaker 4: in romantic partners. And so what most people speak about
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  Speaker 4: in terms of attachment styles now is really like a
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  Speaker 4: branch off the tree of that original body of work,
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  Speaker 4: which was looking at infin care giver stuff. But attachment styles,
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  Speaker 4: the way that I like to describe it, it's essentially
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  Speaker 4: like the things that you've learned to fear or have
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  Speaker 4: stress around in relationships and the way that you respond
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  Speaker 4: to that. So the strategies that you've come up with
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  Speaker 4: that you probably don't even notice or think about, you
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  Speaker 4: just think are normal, But those are the ways that
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  Speaker 4: you respond when you are feeling stress or fear. And
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  Speaker 4: so when we kind of take that framework, we can
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  Speaker 4: look at anxious attachment, which is one of the attachment
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  Speaker 4: styles and is the bulk of the people I work
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  Speaker 4: with are anxiously attached, and that sort of used to
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  Speaker 4: be my experience as well. This is like your typical
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  Speaker 4: like clingy, overthinking stress, like really wants relationships, but can
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  Speaker 4: become very obsessive, like hyper focused on the relationship all
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  Speaker 4: the time, very sensitive to like any cues of disconnection.
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  Speaker 4: If like, oh, you know they're taking twenty minutes to
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  Speaker 4: reply and usually they only take fifteen minutes to reply,
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  Speaker 4: something's very wrong, like very very dialed in and sensitive
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  Speaker 4: to any perceived like abandonment, rejection. And so if that's
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  Speaker 4: the fear, then the response tends to be like do something,
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  Speaker 4: do something to make it stop or make it better.
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  Speaker 4: And so like you might call them eight times when
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  Speaker 4: they're just like in a meeting, and then it's like
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  Speaker 4: your whole body is just taking on this like urgent
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  Speaker 4: message of like we need to solve this problem that
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  Speaker 4: maybe we've just created in our heads, but it feels
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  Speaker 4: very real. And so things like urgently needing to resolve
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  Speaker 4: any conflict in a relationship are part.
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  Speaker 3: Of that as well.
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  Speaker 4: Because there's a very low tolerance law. It's a really
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  Speaker 4: low tolerance like lingering intension.
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  Speaker 1: I hate that.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it just doesn't.
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  Speaker 4: It's like your system doesn't trust that, Like it's okay,
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  Speaker 4: we will resolve it, and like it's all but it's
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  Speaker 4: like we've got to get there.
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  Speaker 1: It's solving a bit black. I'm like, well, we will
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  Speaker 1: resolve it, so why sit in an hour and being grumpy.
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  Speaker 2: Make it just very Yeah, I love you, but I
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  Speaker 2: think some people aren't always necessarily ready to Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, and it depends on your partner as well, right,
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  Speaker 4: And like, I think a lot of where we get
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  Speaker 4: stuck is we assume that someone else will process and
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  Speaker 4: interpret things exactly the way we do, and then we
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  Speaker 4: make all of these assumptions based on that that are
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  Speaker 4: very self centered, and we're like, well, if you you
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  Speaker 4: loved me, you do this, and.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like but it is.
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  Speaker 4: It's like if you cared about me, if you love me,
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  Speaker 4: you would, And it's just like there's a whole lot
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  Speaker 4: of projection and assumption in that that tends not to
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  Speaker 4: be very helpful, but we all do it because we're
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  Speaker 4: all naturally very self centered. Like we've got really good
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  Speaker 4: data on our life experience and like not great data
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  Speaker 4: and on anyone else's So anyway.
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  Speaker 1: That's a great way to look at it.
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  Speaker 3: Well, it we've been the.
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  Speaker 4: Like centerpiece of our own existence for like everything we've
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  Speaker 4: ever experienced. Yeah, and you know, then we expect other
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  Speaker 4: people to just like have all of that same data
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  Speaker 4: and do everything from our perspective, and it's like not
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  Speaker 4: very realistic.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah helpful.
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  Speaker 1: So there's an anxious attachment.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, so anxious is kind of that.
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  Speaker 4: Then avoidant, which is also referred to as dismissive avoidant,
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  Speaker 4: is kind of on the other end of the spectrum.
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  Speaker 4: And that's like, you know, in its more like stereotypical
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  Speaker 4: expression is like quite maybe aloof uncomfortable with intimacy, doesn't
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  Speaker 4: talk much about feelings, more geared towards like rational, might
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  Speaker 4: have fears around commitment, probably quite conflict avoidant, so like
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  Speaker 4: doesn't want to talk about feelings, doesn't want to talk
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  Speaker 4: about relationship problems and all of that. Probably pretty low
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  Speaker 4: patients for you know, by contrast with someone with the
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  Speaker 4: more anxious patterns, who's like, let's talk about improving the
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  Speaker 4: relationship and all of the ways in which we can
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  Speaker 4: be more connected. Someone who's more dismissive avoidant might kind
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  Speaker 4: of roll their eyes and be like, oh, can't you
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  Speaker 4: just be happy with the way things are.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, And so when like a lot of the time
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  Speaker 4: you'll get these two people who have seemingly opposite attachment
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  Speaker 4: patterns in relationship with each other, and like there's a
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  Speaker 4: yin and yang factor there that can kind of the
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  Speaker 4: complementarity can work, but it can also cause a lot
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  Speaker 4: of rupture. And if it's like not handled well, which
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  Speaker 4: most of the time it isn't because most people lack
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  Speaker 4: the skills and awareness to transform that into something that
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  Speaker 4: is like more a middle ground, then it can be
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  Speaker 4: a bit of a shit show, yeah, understandably because it
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  Speaker 4: just becomes a power struggle over like whose way.
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  Speaker 1: Is right, and so then what are the other two?
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  Speaker 4: So then fearful avoidance or it's also referred to as
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  Speaker 4: disorganized attachment, it sort of sits in the middle. It's
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  Speaker 4: like if anxious attachment ranks high on anxiety, and avoidant
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  Speaker 4: attachment ranks high on avoidance, feel avoidant ranks high on both,
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  Speaker 4: so they're like high anxiety, high avoidance, and so that
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  Speaker 4: can show up.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's kind of.
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  Speaker 4: Widely considered to be the most challenging to live with
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  Speaker 4: because there's like a lot of internal chaos and internal
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  Speaker 4: push pulls. I want intimacy, but also I'm terrified of it,
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  Speaker 4: so I move towards it, and then once I get there,
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  Speaker 4: I'm like, oh God, what.
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  Speaker 3: Have I done? And I've got to pull back.
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  Speaker 4: And so a lot of people with fearful avoidant attachment
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  Speaker 4: have like they really struggle in relationships for that reason,
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  Speaker 4: and they tend to, you know, under stress, and particularly
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  Speaker 4: if they're with a more anxious partner, they'll lean more
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  Speaker 4: towards avoidant responses.
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  Speaker 3: If they're with an avoidant partner.
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  Speaker 4: They might have more of their anxious parts in the
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  Speaker 4: driver's seat, so it's quite contextually responsive. But unlike someone
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  Speaker 4: who's more dismissive avoidant, who might be not so emotionally attuned,
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  Speaker 4: someone who's fearful avoidant tends to carry a bit more
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  Speaker 4: like emotional awareness and therefore guilt and shame. So they
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  Speaker 4: have these big protective responses that cause them to pull back,
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  Speaker 4: but then they feel really guilty about hurting people. So
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  Speaker 4: this might be the kind of person who says, like,
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  Speaker 4: you know, I'm just so bad at relationships and I
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  Speaker 4: don't want to hurt you, and I know that I'm
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  Speaker 4: going to hurt you, and so I have to pull
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  Speaker 4: away like that kind of thing, like I can.
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  Speaker 3: Fix the this is my sweet.
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  Speaker 4: Spot, yeah seriously, And so like that's often what you'll
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  Speaker 4: see in the fearful avoidant is like a lot of depth. Again,
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  Speaker 4: by contrast with them more dismissive avoidant who tends not
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  Speaker 4: to go very deep. People avoidance like all about the depth,
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  Speaker 4: but then they kind of panic and go, oh God,
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  Speaker 4: like I'm stuck, I'm trapped.
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  Speaker 3: This is bad.
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  Speaker 4: I need to to create distance for myself and almost
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  Speaker 4: like self sabotage before you know, I'll leave before you
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  Speaker 4: can leave me. And so those are the three insecure
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  Speaker 4: attachment stars. And then secure attachment is what we would
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  Speaker 4: all kind of hope to in an ideal world. That's
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  Speaker 4: what we would all be, and we can kind of
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  Speaker 4: work towards that. That's the whole point of my work
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  Speaker 4: in anyone else's work who works with attachment, and we
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  Speaker 4: can talk about what that looks like. But secure attachment
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  Speaker 4: is just like this really lovely healthy middle. So securely
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  Speaker 4: attached people, you know, they they generally will seek out relationships,
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  Speaker 4: but they don't need them from this like clutching place
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  Speaker 4: of like I need a relationship to make me feel okay,
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  Speaker 4: and if I don't have one, I'm not going to
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  Speaker 4: be okay. They don't have a lot of fear around intimacy,
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  Speaker 4: but also they're not you know, like they kind of
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  Speaker 4: trust in people and relationships, but with a level of discernment.
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  Speaker 3: So unlike someone.
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  Speaker 4: Who's anxiously attachable just like rush into a relationship at
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  Speaker 4: lightning speed and like kind of throw all discernment to
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  Speaker 4: the wind because they just want to be connected. Someone
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  Speaker 4: who's securely attached is like just a bit more moderate,
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  Speaker 4: and so like there's just this measured, balanced energy about
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  Speaker 4: securely attached people, and that's why they generally end up
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  Speaker 4: in relationship with each other and the rest of us.
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  Speaker 4: I kind of like to find it out of the polls. Yeah,
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  Speaker 4: it's like they tend to be pretty good at communication.
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  Speaker 4: They tend to have like pretty good self worth and
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  Speaker 4: self esteem, like good modeling around relationships. They have good boundaries,
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  Speaker 4: Like they trust in the ability to work through conflict
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  Speaker 4: without like it feeling like this big life threatening thing.
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  Speaker 4: So there's just this really nice, like balanced middle ground
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  Speaker 4: kind of energy to secure attachment, which I think for
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  Speaker 4: a lot of people they're like, huh, that exists.
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  Speaker 1: That's what I was going to say is like, I
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  Speaker 1: think a lot of chicks listening to this would probably
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  Speaker 1: relate to the anxious, or avoidant or the disorganized. I think,
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  Speaker 1: you know, we'd all love to think of ourselves as
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  Speaker 1: a secure attachment, but we probably do a little bit
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  Speaker 1: to those three, which is fine, Like that's okay, yes,
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  Speaker 1: but if you do want to work on that, if
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  Speaker 1: maybe someone was listening to this being like, shit, I
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  Speaker 1: really am an anxious attachment style? Can you change that? Can?
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  Speaker 1: Which you kind of just alluded to before, like, how
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  Speaker 1: do you go about evolving your attachment style?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, so you absolutely can.
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  Speaker 4: The great thing about this body of work is that
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  Speaker 4: your attachment style is not some like preordained thy yeah exactly.
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  Speaker 4: It's like really describing a set of beliefs and behaviors
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  Speaker 4: that you've picked up along the way in response to
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  Speaker 4: your experiences. Some of those early experiences some of them
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  Speaker 4: might be later in life in other relationships. But it's
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  Speaker 4: basically like, again, all of the data that I've collected
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  Speaker 4: around the types of things that I need to worry
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  Speaker 4: about in relationships, and like my best, like my best
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  Speaker 4: way of resolving that for myself so I've had a
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  Speaker 4: lot of experiences throughout my life collecting data that people
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  Speaker 4: are always gonna leave me, and I'm always the one
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  Speaker 4: who has to try and reach out to them and
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  Speaker 4: you know, make them love me and hold on to them.
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  Speaker 3: Like then I've got a lot to back that up.
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  Speaker 4: And so I have all of these protective strategies that
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  Speaker 4: spring from those experiences.
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  Speaker 3: And that's just what I know.
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  Speaker 4: So the process of I'm learning that and relearning something
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  Speaker 4: else is a bringing awareness to it.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, that's an obvious first step is like I need.
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  Speaker 4: To get curious, and I think what a lot of
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  Speaker 4: people do, and that something that I really emphasize as
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  Speaker 4: a first step is like not being really self critical
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  Speaker 4: about it. It's easy to do to just be like
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  Speaker 4: what is wrong with me? Why do I keep doing this?
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  Speaker 4: Why do I keep ending up here? And like, particularly
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: in those moments of high stress where you do something
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  Speaker 4: crazy and like send off a million text messages and
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  Speaker 4: then go like oops, right, like kind of possessed. And
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  Speaker 4: I think when your nervous systems like going into this
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  Speaker 4: full blown thing of like this is not safe, you
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  Speaker 4: can almost feel like you've been taken over. Yeah, And
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: then afterwards be like, oh no, like why what is
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: wrong with me?
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah? I think it's like it's like when people get drunk,
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: it's like yeah, just you kind of black out and
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: then you come to and you're like that ship.
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: You're like did know I had that in me? Yeah?
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: And so like having a level of self compassion around it,
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: and some people have resistance to that, So like, isn't
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: that just letting myself off the whole?
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: I don't want to just be nice to myself.
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: But it's really it's as simple as being like, Okay,
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: these are the things I struggle with, like why does
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: that make sense? Because I promise you it will make sense. Yeah,
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: if we can connect the dots a bit and go, okay,
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: well I fear that I'm not good enough, Like where
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: does that come from? And maybe there's like a whole
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: string of experiences early in your life that kind of
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: planted that seed. And so it's like, Okay, I'm just
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: responding to things like stories that I've been carrying for
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: a long time, and my behavior probably as much as
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: I might not, like it makes sense in that.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: Given like X Y. Yeah, it's like probably a lot
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: of those would be breakups, right, yep, and like breakups, would.
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: Date ups or like rejections, all sorts of things.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: How do you actually heal from a breakup? Because there's
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: so many It's like, you know, get under someone, to
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: get over someone, or watch every season of Sex in
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: the City's when I'd never date again, Never date again, celibacy,
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: you know, how do you actually heal from a breakup?
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: I literally had a podcast episode two weeks ago titled
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: how to actually Heal from a breakup? So this is fresh.
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: So I think that like step one in my mind
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: is you got to go into the grief, and breakups
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: are a grieving process, and a lot of people are,
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: like I think we're collectively pretty scared of grief because
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: grief feels like a big, swallow, whole kind of emotion,
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: and we've got this thing of like I can't touch it,
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: I can't turn towards it. I got to just like
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: skim over the top of it or just like not
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: go there. I don't trust it. Yeah, And for some
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: of us that's just because we don't trust like being
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: in our emotions. For others, I think it's almost like
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: to grieve would be to accept that it's over. And
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: a lot of us don't want to do that. I
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: think that's like the whole closure piece as well, which
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: is another part of the healing, is like reframing the
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: way that you relate to closure and having really realistic
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: expectations around that, because I think a lot of people go, like,
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: I can't move on to like a closure, you know,
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: particularly where the relationship if it was a bit of
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: a dumbster fyre, particularly towards the end, we have to
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: be honest about, like, is the person who left me
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: in a state of such disarray that I'm hanging out
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: for closure and totally you know at rock bottom? Is
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: that person going to have the capacity to suddenly show
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: up and like have some cogent conversation where they tell me,
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: you know these really you know, these answers to questions
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: that like.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: One of the things I want to hear, because less
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: you confuse is probably not.
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: Not the person who can show up and give you
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: closure in this like really beautiful, eloquent way where like
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: you'll both feel satisfied with the answers but also feel
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: happy to tibo around it and say good bye.
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: Like that's just not a realistic So.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: If they did magically turn around then you're gonna be like, correct,
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: you probably just got a script from chat.
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: Correct.
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: And so I think we've just got to be really
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: honest about like how clean are my intentions around the
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: closure piece? And can I shift away? You know, this
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: is another really big piece for anxious people, same as
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: when they're in relationships, Like you've just got to stop
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: obsessing about them.
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: What are they thinking, what are they feeling? Are they
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: moving on to?
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: Like all of them, I think you should block them.
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: In most cases, I think no contact is the right call.
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: I realize that can be complicated by like logistical life factors,
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: but you yeah, all of that, like living arrangements, co parenting,
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: but in most cases, like you really need to allow
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: your brain the time and space to disentangle from this person.
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: And just like knowing rationally that you've broken up doesn't
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: disentangle your attachment system, which says, like they're my partner,
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: even if the relationship was so dysfunctional, I still, by default,
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: by instinct, like reach for them, and I expect them
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: to occupy that space in my life. And so if
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: I'm still messaging them and like we're trying to play
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: emotional support person for each other and check in on
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: each other.
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: It's just like there's no clean brain.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: You can't coach each other through a brain.
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: No, it's just not right because it's too murky. It's
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: just kicking the can down the road. You're going to
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: have to have time and space from each other sooner
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: or later, because it's just like you won't process that
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: you've broken up if you're still playing that role for
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: one another. So I think that having clear boundaries around that,
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: as much as it's like the last thing that you want,
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: it's probably what you need. And what I always say
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: to people about no contacts, like how long.
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: Should it be?
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: It's been six weeks? Should I reach out? I think
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: if you're still asking that question, it's not being long enough.
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: Have you counting down the days on the calendar?
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: Is like, okay, no contact, al Mu's finished, I can
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: text them again.
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: It's like you're missing the point, right, Like it's not
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: just pressing pause so that you can then pick up
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: where things left off and go back to talking to
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: them all the time.
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: The point of that period.
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: Is that you can like shift focus away from them
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: and onto yourself and go like, okay, accepting reality. I'm
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: choosing to accept that the relationship is over, even though
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: that might not be what I was hoping for, even
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: though I might still miss them, Like all of those
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: things are completely normal, and I think we make a
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: lot of meaning out of them, Like if I miss
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: like if it was meant to be, I wouldn't miss them.
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: It's like, that's just not true. You miss them because
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: you're accustomed to them being there. You're accustomed to messaging
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: them when something funny happens, or when you're frustrated, or
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: you like all of the little things you're accustomed to,
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: like asking them what they want to have for dinner.
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: Particularly if it was a long term relationship and you
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: live together or anything like that where your lives are
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: been really integrated, of course you're going to miss them.
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: And that doesn't change what was real about the relationship
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: not working. And I think we can get really like
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: rose colored glasses about that in hindsight, because.
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: The day to day scene, Yeah, the day to day stresses.
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: Are gone, Like all of the things that were really
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: triggering you and that you're fighting about, like those are gone,
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: and now you're just left with this acknowledgment of the
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: things that you've had to go of that you now,
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: like all of the little things that might have kept
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: you there, those are the things that your attention lands on.
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: Is like, oh my god, I'm not going to get
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: to see their family anymore, or like that holiday that
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: we had been talking about, but that that's not going
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: to happen either, and like who am I going to
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: watch shows with?
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: Or all those things that points are comfortay with?
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: Correct, who am I going to, like send this meme
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: to I would have sent it to them, and now
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: I can't. So it's just like these continual reminders of
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: the loss, and then we start to make meaning and
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: go like maybe maybe it wasn't that right.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: I think dating is the way to get over a
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: relationship like is jump back into the pond if.
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: You haven't really engaged with like what went wrong and why?
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: I think there's a really good chance you're signing up
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: for a pattern repeat with the next person, because like,
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: why would you know acknowledging that we are the common
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: denominator in our lives and relationship patterns, why would anything
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: be different if we've not done the work for it
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: to be different. And so if we know that we
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: were like contributing to some unhealthy like if you had
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: a perfectly healthy relationship and you feel like it ended
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: for some sort of like non you know whatever. One
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: of you moved overseas and you couldn't do it something
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: like that, and it was a lovely breakup. Fine, maybe
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: you can get back out there when you feel ready,
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: and that might be sooner rather than later. But if
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: you've got a lot of stuff and you know you've
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: got some baggage to unpack, like just going back out
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: there is in my mind, like bypassing that again, like
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: you're going to come up against the same stuff for failure. Yeah,
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: you're just setting yourself up for more of the same.
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: It's like, why would you not get more of the
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: same when you are kind of the same person. Whereas
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: I think a breakup is a beautiful opportunity to like
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: hold the mirror up and go, Okay, can I get intentional?
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: Can I get honest with myself about like what was
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: my part in that? Like what attracted me to that
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: dynamic and kept me there for as long as I
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: stayed a lot of people with anxious attachment will just
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: like hold on for dear life so far past the
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: point of dysfunction.
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: You know, It's just like it's not that bad.
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: But like, even if it's so, it's so like all
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: you do is fight, it's like, yeah, but we love
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: each other. Yeah, you know, like those sorts of like
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: the feelings are such a big piece, and you know,
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: anyone looking from the outside of'd be like.
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: Writing's on the wall.
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: But like we have to get honest out, like, Okay,
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: what is it within me that doesn't you know someone
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: I have so many examples because I work with so
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: many people on this. It's like, you know, they said
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: that they weren't really sure they loved me after three years,
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: and I stayed for another two years after that or something,
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: just like what is it within me that doesn't register
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: that as a problem.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: Like the reason I'm laughing is because it's me, me
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: think of like a very one particular past relationship. And
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: that's why sounds also rolling her eyes, and it just
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: I find it really comforting actually to talk about, because
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: I want to point out to anyone listening to this
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: if they're being like, fuck, that's me. It truly does
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: come full circle. And when you do work on yourself
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: and you do kind of take a step back and
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: be like that wasn't what I wanted, Like why did
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: I think that was healthy?
• 25:24
  Speaker 5: Why did I think that would love that it was
• 25:26
  Speaker 5: this really big thing all the time, Like I actually
• 25:29
  Speaker 5: think relationships should potentially be a little bit boring sometimes
• 25:33
  Speaker 5: and routine is okay, and like getting to that place
• 25:36
  Speaker 5: of I definitely still think I have Like I wouldn't
• 25:38
  Speaker 5: say I'm like one hundred percent secure, but like there's
• 25:42
  Speaker 5: I've definitely been able to get to that place of
• 25:44
  Speaker 5: secure attachments.
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: Sure you can have it, thanks.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: Because you know you do that work and you actually
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: make an effort to find someone that isn't the exact
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: opposite of what you need and can kind of meet
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: you halfway with things. So that's why I'm laughing, because
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: I don't think it's funny. Don't want anyone to hear No,
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, like you bitch, No, it's just like me.
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: As well, absolute shit of a relationship. And like, thank
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: god I did, because had I not.
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: Push myself to the brink, then it like I wouldn't
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: be I wouldn't be doing this work in a way
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: that I am, and I'd certainly like I wouldn't be
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: able to speak to it and teach you about it
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: in the way that I do, because like I fully
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: understand it.
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: People always say like it's like you're inside my head.
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: I'm like, no, just in my mind. Yeah, I've been there.
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: I gets him and experience.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: There's a book called The Mountain is You, and it
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: literally says that you have to hit rock bottom before
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: you're ready to change your life. And I feel like
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: that's how it was, like. I don't know if that's
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: with every relationship, but that's what it was like with
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: my breakups. Like I literally felt like I hit rock
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: bottom and then I was like, Okay, keep doing it again. Yeah,
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: and then you actually make the work. I would love
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: to know. Do you ever think jealousy is healthy in
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: a relationship?
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Jealousy is a really funny one because I think
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: as a society where like, jealousy is bad, jealousy is
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: a bad emotion and we should be kind of ashamed
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: of it or like it's associated with being crazy. But
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: jealousy is a very very natural human emotion, Like evolutionary
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: psychologists will talk about jealousy as a mate guarding strategy.
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: It's like, if I perceive a threat to my relationship
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: my mate, then jealousy arises as this emotion in me,
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: that might come with like anger and protectiveness.
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: That's like essentially batting away threats to my relationship.
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: And that's kind of makes sense, right, We're like that
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: that's mine, yeah, back, yeah, exactly, And so there's nothing like,
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: it's completely normal universal as an emotion. I don't think
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: there's anything inherently wrong with it. I think that for
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: a lot of people, again, more anxiously attach people typically
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: perceive threats like everywhere to their relationship. And I to me, like,
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: whenever I talk about jealousy, particularly in the context of
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: anxious attachment, it's a self worth issue as far as
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: I'm concerned, assuming there aren't actual things going on that
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: you know, that's okay. Yeah, because like sometimes people will
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: be like, oh, I'm just so jealous and paranoid. Then
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: they tell me what's going on, I'm like, no, your
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: partner's cheating on you. Yeah, you're having a completely natural
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: and normal response to the situation, which is not okay.
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: But absent those situations, like if you just know that.
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: You've always been really jealous, you've always really struggled with that,
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: then I think it is oftentimes because we don't trust
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: in our own value and we don't trust that someone
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: could really want and choose us. Then it's like, oh,
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: everything's a threat. Everyone's a threat. I compare myself really
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: chronically because like I just think the second my partner
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: gets an opportunity, they're going to leave me. So I
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: think in those sorts of circumstances, I don't think it's
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: healthy or helpful, but I think that's a self worth problem.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: Managing a partner who's really jealous.
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: As with all of these things, you've got to find
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: a way. And like being a secure partner I think
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: is being really validating but also having boundaries. So it
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: might sound like I know that this is really hard
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: for you, and like I can see that you're really
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: like carrying a lot of stress around this. I want
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: to understand that, and I want you to help me
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: understand that. But at the same time, from my perspective,
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: it's not clear to me that like anything I'm doing
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: is like warranting this fear in you. So like I
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: obviously want to help you to feel safe, but at
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: the same time, it's hard for me to feel like
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: you don't trust me or something like that.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: Slave write that down everyone, Yeah, that was good.
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: So I think it's it's finding that balance of like
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: validating them but also holding firm, not like overstepping into
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: like let me fix it for you, because like I
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: have to take care of your movie.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: Okay, it's a natural reaction. I've been like, no, baby,
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: I'll come home right now. Well, he looks through my
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: phone or want to accommodate, and potentially that's feeding the beast.
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think that you know a lot of
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: people who struggle with trust and they're like, oh, I
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: went through their phone and did all other things. It's like,
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: and now I trust them because I've like gone through
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: everything I didn't find it.
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, it's not trust. Trust.
• 29:59
  Speaker 4: It only is because you've like you know, been running
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: a surveillance operation. Is not trust.
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: His trust involves like a level of risk and vulnerability.
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: It's not like I have full transparency over everything and
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: I have verified that there are no breaches, therefore I
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: trust them.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, you need to have faith in your
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: partner as well as like evidence, and they're showing that
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: they actually care about you. But for somebody who is
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: taking stock in their relationship or maybe reflecting on a
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: previous relationship or looking for a new partner. What's the
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: checklist for a healthy relationship?
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, good question. So I think that you trust emotional safety, respect.
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: These are like really cornerstone pillars of a relationship that
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: it's kind of hard to build something healthy without that.
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: So what does that look like? I think being able
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: to bring things to each other and have conversations. They
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: might be messy in perfect conversations, like it's not like
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: you have to have this really lovely textbook relatedation chip
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: you know, therapy kind of conversation every time when no
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: one gets triggered, like all that stuff is going to
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: come up. But being able to more or less have
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: a safe container where you can talk about hard things
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: and you don't feel like, oh, I'm not allowed to
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: tell them that, or I've been really anxious about this,
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: but I can't bring it to them because they will
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: get really defensive and blow up and storm out, and
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: then I'll be left feeling awful. I think like being
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: able to have like safe conversations and even if it
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: goes a bit pair shaped, like being able to circle
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: back and repair and be like that got out of hand,
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: like can we talk about it, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Great,
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: Like understanding, you know, being able to own your stuff,
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: like I got a bit triggered, or like I was snappy.
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I'm piot, like you know, just being able
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: to like have hard things that you work through. Well.
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: I think that's probably the most important thing, because relationships
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: are hard and messy, and like you will come up
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: against hard stuff. So your ability to actually stay in
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: that and still be like kind of loving and respectful
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: towards each other, if not in the moment, then like
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: coming back later and coming back together, I think that's
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: really important. I think a level of commitment in the
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: sense of like not sensing that one person's got their
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: foot out the door, because it's really hard to build
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: if you feel like one person or both of you
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: has one foot out the door, it just brings this
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: like frigility to the relationship that then makes having, for example,
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: hard conversations or safe conflict really hard because you feel
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: like one person's potentially always going to be like you
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: know what, this is too.
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: Hard, this is done, don't It's just like yeah.
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And that's just like such a trump card to
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: be holding. That creates a power and balance it's really
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: hard to overcome, like it's the person who is always
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: like pulling away or withholding or saying like maybe this
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: is just too hard. That's the person who will always
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: have power. Yeah, And that's like really hard to build
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: a healthy, secure relationship where you both feel good about it,
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: where one person's always holding the power.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: And that's kind of those situations where someone feels like, oh,
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: I love you more than you love me.
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm always the one reaching, and like because of that,
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: I have to get really small because I feel like
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: you're already making concessions just by being here, and that
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: like you could go at any moment because I'm kind
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: of holding this whole thing together. Like, it's really hard
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: to build with that kind of energy where you're like
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: convincing and persuading someone to be with you.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: Why do you think people and some of us are
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: attracted to that like emotional unavailability in a partner?
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: Is it the anxious attachment style?
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: I think so. There's a few pieces.
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: I think if you are if you don't believe that
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: you deserve something better, then that can be a really
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: safe place to sit of just like reaching for the
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: person who's unavailable, because that like keeps your worldview intact.
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: If you think that like relationships always like that, if
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: you're really accustomed to trying to prove yourself for trying
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: to win someone over or like rescue someone, you can
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: have this story. And I think it's really like romanticized
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: in a lot of like pop culture amusing and everything
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: of like the person who was like really tortured and
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: like I saved them with my love. And for those
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: of us who like get a lot of our sense
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: of worth or value from trying to save people, that's
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: really seductive. It's just like, oh, they are kind of
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: like dark and mysterious or unavailable, or they have all
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: this baggage, Like maybe I'll be the one to transform
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: them from unavailable to available and that gives me a
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: lot of like sense of value, and like I get
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: a lot out of that. I think for any of
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: these you have to ask what am I getting out
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: of it in these pursuits? Is it the hope that
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: I can turn it around? And what that will mean
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: about me? Some other pieces on the emotional unavailability. Some
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: of us are much more comfortable in like inconsistent, unpredictable dynamics,
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: like that's what causes an anxious attachment style in like
• 34:42
  Speaker 4: to emerge in the first place in family systems where
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: like love, you know, love is there and connection is there,
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: but it's unreliable in some way. So like sometimes everyone's
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: happy and we're all connected and that feels good, but
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: then suddenly something will change and everything's not good and
• 34:56
  Speaker 4: I don't really understand why or what happened, and so
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: I become really yper vigilant like all of the conditions
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: that's around, like what's going on and how's everyone feeling?
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: And can I read the room all the time to anticipate,
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: like a mom.
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: And dad fighting is something going on that I don't
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: fully understand.
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: And so when we carry that into adult relationships, like
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: we're really primed to not register that as a problem
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: for starters, that things can change all the time, but
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: like all of our protective strategies that we've gotten really
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: good at fit perfectly in that environment with an unavailable partner,
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: like someone who's there and it's all really great, and
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: then they start to pull away, and rather than being like, oh,
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: like that's a bit shit, I'm not really interested in
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: someone who leaves me guessing whether they like me, we
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: go like, ah, how interesting they're pulling away. Is it
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: something that I said. I'll go back through the text messages.
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: Maybe I'll send a little message and see, like try
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: and engauge all of the like. We just don't register
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: that as a problem. We go like, I know what
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: to do with inconsistent and unpredictable. I've been training my
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: whole life for this.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you've got a pattern.
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah it's very comfortable, and so we can say, like,
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: why does this keep happening to me? But it's much
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: more honest to go like, what part of me is
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: more comfortable here than I would be in a safe,
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: healthy relationship, because it is like healthy relationships can be
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: way more vulnerable because you don't really have anyone to
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: blame or anywhere to hide. It's like, oh, hang on,
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: all of a sudden, I can't point my finger at
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: like the unavailable person who's always pulling away. It's like
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: I'm actually brought into contact with my own stuff and
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: the places where I might fear vulnerability and all of
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: those things. So there's a few different reasons for those
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: are some of the big ones.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: That's interesting as well, because in those sorts of relationships,
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: maybe there's not as much like passion or excitement as well,
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: which people find very appealing. And we do get messages
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: from chicks all the time who are in long term
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: relationships and they have questions about their relationships because maybe
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: they feel a bit different to what they were in
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: the beginning, maybe they feel less exciting. So what are
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: five things that we need to normalize in long term relationships?
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so I think that's really normal. Again, Like I
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: think pop culture has probably done us a dirty on
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: that and like painted a picture that it should always
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: be really like amazing and exciting and fireworks and like passion,
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: and it's just not realistic.
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: It's only very recently that.
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: We've ever had that expectation of relationships, and like social
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: media presents a very one side of you, Like you're
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: only getting like these super cute, like ridiculously attractive couples
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: like holding hands and wading around Europe and that's just
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: in a you know, twelve second reel set to nice music,
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: and I'm like, oh mama, my relationship sucks, Like what.
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: Do I mean?
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: It's not a one thousand year old vampire and I
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: already had sex with his brother. He can't pick me
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: up with one hand? Yeah, what s that's crazy.
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: Right, And so we do have this, like you know,
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: and I think it's kind of ties into like our
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: broader attention span and culture around dating that has presented
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: like limitless options.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, grass is always greener, correct, And.
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: So I think that normalizing that it's not always going
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: to be super exciting, normalizing like companions as well as
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: hopefully some excitement, but like the companionship and like steadiness,
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: those are really good qualities to aim for. It doesn't
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: have to be like super riveting all the time. I
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: think normalizing getting your needs met from not just your relationship,
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: I think we can.
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: Get really lazy.
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: It's really easy to just get comfy in relationships and
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: it's like, yeah, they're my default person so or just
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: like kind of rely on them to be my everything,
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: my person who I do everything with and my therapists
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: am my this, am I that. And there's a lot
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: of pressure on a relationship. And I think that the
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: more we can diversify like where we get those needs met,
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: the less likely we are to be disappointed or frustrated
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: with someone for like not giving us everything we need
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: all the time.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: Outside of relationships like romantic relationships, how can your attachment
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: styles affect your life.
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's interesting, like attachment theory and attachment styles
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: is really about like infant care givet and then romantic relationships.
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: But if we take that broader view of like the
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: things that I've learned to be afraid of or insecure
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: about when it comes to relationships and the ways that
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: I've learned to kind of habitually respond to that, we
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: can see that like that's going to show up in
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: other places, like if my anxious attachment has turned me
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: into like a full blown people pleaser, caretaker, rescuer, Like
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: that's not siloed, and there's a good chance that I
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: might see that pop up in my friendships, like insecurities
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: around I like people more than they like me, you know,
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: I don't belong or any of those.
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: Stories we might have.
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: Like you can certainly see that in friendships that like
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: one person might do all of the heavy lifting and
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: all of the reaching out and like overfunctioning and all
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: of the planning and like that that's this coming from
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: this place of insecurity that like I have to make
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: people like me or.
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: Earn my place there.
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: But also you can just find in relationships like when
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: one person continually overfunctions, it kind of enables the underfunctioning
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: of the other person because it's like I don't need
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: to put in effort because you're doing all the efforting, So.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: Should the efforting friends take a step back?
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's usually my advice in relations like romantic relationships
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: and any other It's like, if I know that I'm
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: like stepping over, I always picture a tennis court. I
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: don't know if that's a helpful visual for anyone, but
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: like if I'm constantly.
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: Going over to your side of the court and like I'm.
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: Hitting the ball to you and then I'm running back
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: around and like I'm doing all this stuff, like am
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: I overstepping past like the midline here? So can I
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: stay on my side of the court and like be
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: a bit less overfunctioning? And like balls might drop, but
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: people have to experience consequences to learn.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: And I do have a bit of a like a
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: sideball question for you. But can attachment styles affect the
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: way that we spend money?
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: So again my analogy, like it's it's outside of the
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: skype of attachment theory, and like very clear patterns around that,
• 40:39
  Speaker 4: like that you could be anxious and very excessively preoccupied
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: with money. Maybe don't trust money, maybe check your accounts
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: like a bit maniacally, Like you know, this sense of
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: it could go away at any moment, and so I
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: have to try and control it. I think you could
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: see that kind of pattern someone who's avoidant around money.
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: I think that's definitely a thing, like I can't even
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: look at it. Yeah, you don't want to look at
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: my accounts, I mean complete denial. I keep racking up
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: debt and it's like so unsustainable, but I'm just going
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: to pretend it's not there because it freezes me up
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: and I feel so overwhelmed. So while it's like it's
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: not attachment theory, I think by analogy you can certainly
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: see there are similar shapes taking place when it comes
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: to something like money.
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: Have you shared a quote recently on your Instagram that
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: resonated with a lot of people and at the end
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: you sort of summarized it by saying, the things we
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: fear in relationships are so often reflections of the relationships
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: we have with ourselves. And yeah, like I said, I
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: saw that resonated with so many people, But can.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: You elaborate on that.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: I feel like it's a nice little way to cap
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: the episode.
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, So that post was about, you know, like
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: fear of abandonment, fear of rejection, all of these things
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: that we focus on in a relational sphere. And I've
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: truly never worked with someone who's like terrified of abandonment,
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: who doesn't always abandon themselves, or like terrified of rejection,
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: who isn't highly self critical. And it's almost like we
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: move through the world seeking confirmation of the painful burdens
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: that we're carrying in our own inner relationship. And so
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: that's really in my mind where the work has to begin.
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: Like I think there's a lot of scope for healing
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: in a relationship, but in my mind, it helps a
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: lot if you've done some of that like foundational work
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: within yourself, because it's hard to have a healing relationship
• 42:23
  Speaker 4: if you have rock bottom self worth, right, Because if
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: you have rock body and self true, it's like there's
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: just a really good chance if you have rock bottom
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: self worth, you're going to go to a relationship with
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: someone who's emotionally unavailable and try to make them love
• 42:35
  Speaker 4: you and do all of the things. Like that's where
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: your patterns kind of come up because they're trying to
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: compensate something. It's trying to keep you safe from this
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: foundation of like, I don't believe that anyone's ever gonna
• 42:45
  Speaker 4: love me, so like, I think that you can have
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: really beautiful, healing relationships, but it requires that you've done
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: a bit of leg work. And I don't think that
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: means like you have to love yourself first. I think
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: that's simplistic and not true. I think having like a
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: foundation of self esteem helps a lot in then allowing
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: you to build the kind of relationship that you can
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: grow in, because if you don't have that, then you're
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: probably gonna end up in a lot of those insecure
• 43:12
  Speaker 4: patterns that collect more evidence for the old way and
• 43:14
  Speaker 4: collect more you know, you end up pushing someone away,
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: and then you go, see, everyone always leaves me because
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: I'm too much, I'm too needy, I'm too sensitive, I'm
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: like too clingy. But like you've kind of re enacted
• 43:25
  Speaker 4: this same scenario and then been like see proof.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much that I feel like I
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: could chat to you for hours. This is also interesting,
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: but I'm sure this episode has helped so many chicks listening.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: For those who want to hear more where can they
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: find you?
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's probably the best place. Is my podcast on attachment,
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: over two hundred episodes, so you can go binge through those.
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: I'm also on Instagram at Stephanie Underscool, Underscore rig stephanierig
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: dot com.
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: But yeah, start with the podcast. That's a good intro, amazing.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us, much for having me.
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: It was our pleasure, my pleasure.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: And thanks to m I k Made for making today's
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: episode happen and two chicks for having us in the
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: ear holes.
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: We love to be here.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: Bye chick, Bye,