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Mini: Animal Chiropractic · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do. Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Why we do what we do Mini. I'm your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: host Abraham and I'm your host Shane. We are a
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  Speaker 1: psychology podcast. We talk about the things that humans and
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  Speaker 1: non human animals do. And this is a mini which
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  Speaker 1: means it's short. They were joining us for the first time,
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  Speaker 1: then welcome. I hope that you enjoy what you hear
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  Speaker 1: in this discussion. It's a short discussion that's like fifteen
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  Speaker 1: minutes or less, is the hope. At least that's the goal.
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  Speaker 1: And then you get to go on with your day.
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  Speaker 1: And yeah, so humans, non human animals, we talk about
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  Speaker 1: the things they do. This is a little bit of
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  Speaker 1: a follow up in a way. So we did a
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  Speaker 1: full length a while back on chiropractic medicine or care
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  Speaker 1: or whatever you want to call it, and we try
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  Speaker 1: to be as skeptical and as charitable as possible in
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  Speaker 1: unpacking chiropractic interventions. And there is a huge contingent of
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  Speaker 1: chiropractors who fall very firmly into the camp of pseudoscience, bulls, ineffective,
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  Speaker 1: lion snake oil crap. Yeah, there does seem to be
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  Speaker 1: a contingent of chiropractic practitioners who are very interested in
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  Speaker 1: medicine and what chiropractic can do from a medical perspective
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  Speaker 1: to actually be effective and be experimentally shown to do
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  Speaker 1: its thing. And that's out there too. So I think
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  Speaker 1: I'm jumping the gun here. If you're joining us for
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  Speaker 1: the first time, welcome. I hope you like what you
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  Speaker 1: hear in this discussion. If you're coming back, then welcome.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: I hope that you hear you like what you hear
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  Speaker 1: in this discussion. If you like to support us, you
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: can leave us a writing and interview, like subscribe, join
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: us on Patreon. I'll talk more about that at the
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: end of this discussion. I jumped into this so fast.
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  Speaker 2: Huh to go? Did I messed that?
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  Speaker 1: All up?
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  Speaker 2: 's do it? Okay?
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  Speaker 3: No, No, you're good because I think we're I think
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  Speaker 3: this is one of those ones that we feel pretty
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  Speaker 3: passionate about.
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  Speaker 1: We feel passionate, and I want to say I want
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  Speaker 1: to try and give the benefit of the doubt, but
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  Speaker 1: also maintain scientific rigor, like that's what most important is
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  Speaker 1: Like we're doing we take the scientific perspective. Now, chiropractic
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  Speaker 1: for humans, as I mentioned, is plagued by a schism
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  Speaker 1: field primarily dominated by pseudoscientists who make absurd, unfalsifiable, unverifiable
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  Speaker 1: claims that are utter nonsense and based on nothing, and
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  Speaker 1: they are liars and frauds and hucksters and snake oil salesmen,
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  Speaker 1: and they shouldn't be trusted. Yeah, now that's not all
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  Speaker 1: of them, that's just the majority of them.
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  Speaker 3: Right now, we did a full length in which we
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  Speaker 3: unpack the history, research, and current understanding of chiropractical practitioners
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  Speaker 3: and ended with a general call to action for more
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  Speaker 3: and better research.
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  Speaker 1: So, with little evidence that this is actually effective for humans, like,
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  Speaker 1: that's where we're at, it's hard to imagine how optimistic
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  Speaker 1: we should be about how well this will work with
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  Speaker 1: non human animals. And actually, I take that back, it's
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  Speaker 1: not hard to imagine at all. We should not be
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  Speaker 1: optimistic about that perspective, right and we'll talk more about why.
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  Speaker 3: So let's start with the obvious problem that bipedal humans
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  Speaker 3: and quadrupedal humans are animals. Quadrapedal humans is a very
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  Speaker 3: different experience, quadrupedal animals having different vertebrate set from one another.
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  Speaker 3: They're just very different, and even vertebrate quadictripeds do not
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  Speaker 3: all have the same spines, So assuming that you can
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  Speaker 3: simply translate one form of intervention directly onto another animal
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  Speaker 3: is already absurd and arguably quite dangerous.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like the reason that a veterinarian does not
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  Speaker 1: also just jump into a surgery room and know exactly
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  Speaker 1: what to do to perform surgery in a human and
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  Speaker 1: a human surgeon does not automatically jump into an animal
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  Speaker 1: and know and think that they can do exactly the
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  Speaker 1: same thing to do the human as they do with
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  Speaker 1: an animal, because their biology is a little bit different.
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  Speaker 1: Going to look for different things, you might expect different things,
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  Speaker 1: you might have different diagnoses. There's overlap, for sure. Like
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  Speaker 1: we all have a common ancestor we all evolve from.
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  Speaker 2: There's a lot of.
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  Speaker 1: Things that we do have in common. We generally have
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  Speaker 1: pretty similar organs inside our body that have pretty similar functions. Sure,
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  Speaker 1: but they're different enough that you really need specialized training
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  Speaker 1: to be able to do one of those things well
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  Speaker 1: and to understand what you're doing and.
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  Speaker 2: How you're doing it.
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  Speaker 1: And like even among veterinarians, they'll have specialty like people
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  Speaker 1: who primarily do horses who primarily do cats, or dogs
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  Speaker 1: who primarily do snakes or birds like they have specialties
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  Speaker 1: because again unique specialized biology that tell you something different,
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  Speaker 1: So you need to know that those things are different.
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  Speaker 1: So another thing to understand here is in the extent
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  Speaker 1: to which chiropractic works in humans, which is already taking
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  Speaker 1: a pretty significant leap. In most of the cases we
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  Speaker 1: have seen. If there is an effect, it's probably a
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  Speaker 1: placebo effect in many of them. However, there's some examples
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  Speaker 1: in which there may be some other things, Like we
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  Speaker 1: saw that there does seem to be better performance on
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  Speaker 1: some back pain issues, and there seems to be some
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  Speaker 1: like things that it can be helpful for. It's not nothing,
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  Speaker 1: just a little bit limited.
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  Speaker 2: Now.
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  Speaker 1: What it will not do. What chiropractic will never do
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  Speaker 1: is cure your cold, cure your cancer, cure your broken hand,
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  Speaker 1: cure your cavities. Despite what they may claim that it
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  Speaker 1: will do any and all of those things. It'll do
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  Speaker 1: your taxes for you, it'll fill up your car with gas,
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  Speaker 1: it'll do anything. It won't do those things they claim
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  Speaker 1: that it'll do.
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  Speaker 2: None of those.
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  Speaker 3: Things, right, what it will most likely do is play
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  Speaker 3: an ad for you.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, we're back. So we were describing that
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  Speaker 1: like in humans, this is already questionable. In the extent
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  Speaker 1: to which it does exist. It seems to be a
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  Speaker 1: bit at placebo, although there are some there does seem
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  Speaker 1: to be some applications that maybe have real tangible benefits
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  Speaker 1: for some back pain.
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  Speaker 2: Nevertheless, we ended our full length the way we it.
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  Speaker 1: We'll state again here that there are likely some good
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  Speaker 1: skeptical practitioners who believe or have found some utility in
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  Speaker 1: these interventions and would advocate for more and better research
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  Speaker 1: as we did, to find the limits and effective procedures
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  Speaker 1: that will facilitate a effective intervention that will get some
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  Speaker 1: kind of benefit out of what they do. And I
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  Speaker 1: applaud their decision to try and join the scientific community.
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  Speaker 1: I hope it works out. I think that they can
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  Speaker 1: find a way to do those things if they're using
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  Speaker 1: scientific method So there are going to be some of
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  Speaker 1: those people out there.
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  Speaker 3: So the next problem is the primary ingredient in chiropractics,
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  Speaker 3: which is subblexation, which is a spinal misalignment. If you
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  Speaker 3: go to a chiropractor, they will identify sublixation, no matter
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  Speaker 3: what you're there for and whether or not there's any
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  Speaker 3: evidence for this, it is their bread and butter. Unfortunately,
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  Speaker 3: there's no concrete evidence that this exists. It does not
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  Speaker 3: appear on X rays and does not pinch nerves, and
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  Speaker 3: they've been trying to pin it down for over a
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  Speaker 3: century and as a quicker Subilization is a real term
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  Speaker 3: for a real condition in orthopedic medicine, but it's been
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  Speaker 3: co opted by chiropractors to make them sound scienz Yeah. Essentially,
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  Speaker 3: what it is is it's a partial dislocation where the
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  Speaker 3: joint or whatever soft like whatever bone connections have been
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  Speaker 3: like stretched or or misaligned, and then they returned to
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  Speaker 3: some degree and there might be an injury as a.
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  Speaker 2: Result of it.
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  Speaker 1: In orthopedic medicine. Yes, that's that's the real example of this.
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  Speaker 1: But they sort of like they call what they do
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  Speaker 1: or what they identify as a problem sublixation, even though
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  Speaker 1: they can't actually show they can't find on an X ray,
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  Speaker 1: they can't show you what it is, they can't pinpoint it.
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  Speaker 1: They basically just said, like this is a real term.
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  Speaker 1: We're going to say it because it is a real term.
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  Speaker 1: We want to say it in a way that is
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  Speaker 1: not real, right, And that's okay because we get to
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  Speaker 1: call the shots because we decided that we don't need
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  Speaker 1: a regulating body of professionals. What we need is a
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  Speaker 1: panel of lobbyists, which is what they got. Sure, Okay,
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  Speaker 1: so I think you probably see at this point where
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  Speaker 1: we're going with this. If your imaginary problem doesn't exist,
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  Speaker 1: then the cure that you provide it only works because
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  Speaker 1: you can convince your patient that it works. And if
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  Speaker 1: that's the case, what hope does this have to work
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  Speaker 1: on a non human animal with no detectable language. So
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  Speaker 1: it's like, if the only way this works is because
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  Speaker 1: there's a placebo effect, you tell them that it's medicine,
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  Speaker 1: they believe you, then why is this going to work
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  Speaker 1: with animals? It will not, It will not.
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  Speaker 3: The measures that yield positive results tend to be subjective.
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  Speaker 3: People answering that they think, maybe it looks like there
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  Speaker 3: is more mobility, but nothing is measured, nothing confirmed, no
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  Speaker 3: diagnosis with changes and symptoms.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's like people will say, like, I took
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  Speaker 1: my dog to the dog chiropractor. Now my dog looks better,
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  Speaker 1: even though there's no there's no assessment, there's no actual measurement,
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  Speaker 1: there's no data to say this. They just say, I
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  Speaker 1: want to believe that this is true. Therefore true, Right,
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  Speaker 1: that's what you get. Once more, Again, I will concede.
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  Speaker 1: It's possible that there are some forms of back manipulation
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  Speaker 1: that result in some amounts of less pain in some instances.
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  Speaker 1: But again there's just there's not scientific research here. There's
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  Speaker 1: nothing that demonstrates how this works and how to guide
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  Speaker 1: practitioners in successfully implementing it. There have been studies where
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  Speaker 1: the journals that are very pro chiropractor find pro results
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  Speaker 1: and the ones that are not don't. And it's like
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  Speaker 1: it's so mixed, right that it's like, how do I
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  Speaker 1: square those two things? One of you has an agenda
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  Speaker 1: and the other one doesn't. So I'm inclined to believe
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  Speaker 1: the person who doesn't, right, because they're just trying to
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  Speaker 1: figure out what's going on, right, and they're telling me
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  Speaker 1: nothing works here exactly.
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  Speaker 3: Now, you might ask what's the harm, like why not
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  Speaker 3: take my dog to chiropractic? Well, for one thing, these
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  Speaker 3: interventions aren't Usually they're usually not cheap. You're going to
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  Speaker 3: be paying one hundreds of dollars to accomplish a little
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  Speaker 3: to nothing. But it can get worse than that. Because
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  Speaker 3: the spine is a very sensitive and important part of
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  Speaker 3: your body, and also for non human vertebrates, and damage
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  Speaker 3: to the spine can cause strokes, paralysis, and even death.
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  Speaker 3: And that's a pretty high cost attempting something with a
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  Speaker 3: high likelihood like this, it will likely fail, so it
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  Speaker 3: will not be helpful, it will only be harmful and
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  Speaker 3: your increasing risk.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like, are you willing to die for something
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  Speaker 1: that probably wasn't.
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  Speaker 2: Gonna work anyway?
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  Speaker 3: Right?
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  Speaker 1: The answer should be nor are you willing to sacrifice
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  Speaker 1: your animal's life for something that probably wasn't gonna work anyway?
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  Speaker 2: The answer should be no. Right putting out there, Okay,
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  Speaker 2: all right.
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  Speaker 1: Again, although there are more skeptical chiropractors out there, most
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  Speaker 1: of them tend to fall most of the chiropractors tend
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  Speaker 1: to fall in the fringe anti science camp. So this
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  Speaker 1: is another part of the harm here. As you go
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  Speaker 1: to them, they're gonna recommend other pseudosciences such as acupuncture
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  Speaker 1: and homeopathy. They're going to recommend against effective medical procedures
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  Speaker 1: such as vaccinations and surgery, even when it is clearly warranted.
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  Speaker 1: So I don't know how to help you identify who
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  Speaker 1: are the quacks and who are the people who are
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  Speaker 1: legitimately trying to do good work. But if they tell
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  Speaker 1: you not to get vaccinations, or they tell you that
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  Speaker 1: your dog who clearly needs surgery, or your pet, whatever
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  Speaker 1: your pet is, who clearly need surgery, does not need surgery,
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  Speaker 1: run away from that person.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. I had a chiropractor, a functional chiropractor one time
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  Speaker 3: tell me that he could cure autism with chiropractics, and
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  Speaker 3: I should I knew right then and there that he
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  Speaker 3: was alone.
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  Speaker 1: So get out of there. That person's crazy and wrong.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 3: We were marketing and the person was like, oh, you
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: don't need to do ABA therapy. You are like, I'll
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  Speaker 3: just just send them here, and I was like, okay,
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  Speaker 3: So until the research says otherwise, it is best to
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  Speaker 3: keep your pet away from chiropractics and from chiropractors in general,
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  Speaker 3: because there's just it's just not a thing. It's just
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  Speaker 3: it's just not there's no evidence, and you're putting your
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  Speaker 3: animal at a necessary risk.
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  Speaker 1: Maybe someday there will be, hopefully there will be, but
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  Speaker 1: until there is, just don't just don't.
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  Speaker 2: That doesn't recommendation.
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  Speaker 3: Let until there is there is not.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that exactly beautiful, yep, that's right, that should be
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  Speaker 1: a shirt until there is there is not excellent. Well,
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: on that note, I don't know how it could end
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: it better than that. I'll do our closing out parts
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: of this, which is that if you like to support us,
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  Speaker 1: at wwdwwdpodcast dot com. And if you're someone who's going
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: to come yell at us about how amazing chiropractic is
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: and how we got everything wrong, then I mean I
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: can't stop you, but I'm also.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: Not going to read email. But yeah, you're right if
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: that brings you joy. Otherwise, we'd love to hear from you.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: If you have other constructive feedback to say, if you've
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: got some things to add to this or some other
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: other ways we can further shut down the pseudosciences, We're
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: happy to hear those as well.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: To my team of people. Thank you for recording with
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: me today.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: Shane, Hey, anytime, is there anything you'd liked out or
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: that I forgot before we close this out?
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: Not today?
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: Thank you all for listening. This is Abraham and it's Shane.
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: We're bye. You've been listening to Why we do what
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: we do. You can learn more about this and other
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: episodes by going to WWDWWD podcast dot com. Thanks for listening,
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: and we hope you have an awesome day