Latest / Beautifully Complex / 352: Navigating Childhood & Adolescent Anxiety, with Dr. Vanessa Lapointe

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352: Navigating Childhood & Adolescent Anxiety, with Dr. Vanessa Lapointe · Beautifully Complex

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Don't think of them ever, as being manipulative, as trying
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: to kind of get out of things or whatever. Instead,
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: look upon them as kids who are doing the very
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: best that they can to be adaptive. That's the word,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: not manipulative, adaptive. And when we can understand children through
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: those kinds of eyes, then we're actually just much more
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: open to hearing and seeing what might be actually up
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: for them.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what it really
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: means to parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity. I'm
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: Penny Williams, and I know firsthand how tough and transformative
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: this journey can be. Let's dive in and discover how
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: to raise regulated, resilient, beautifully complex kids together. Oh and
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: if you want more support, join our free community at
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: hub dot beautifully complex dot life. Welcome back to Beautifully
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: Complex everyone. I am so happy to have all of
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: the caring adults in the world, not all of them,
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: but many caring adults in the world here with us listening.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: I have doctor Vanessa La Point with me, Doctor v
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: to talk about anxiety, and we're going to have a
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: conversation about anxiety that is probably going to be different
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: than other conversations about anxiety you've heard, and I'm really
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: excited to unpack that. So, doctor V, will you start
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: by letting everybody know who you are and what you do.
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: So I am a mom first and foremost to two
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: growing young men now who are almost nineteen and twenty
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: two years of age.
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  Speaker 3: I practiced as a psychologist.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: For more than twenty years before leaving that profession a
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: few years ago to launch in international parenting support platform,
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: and so I really have been for about twenty five
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: years now walking alongside kids and parents and famis families
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: and just really seeking to champion them to live their
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: best lives.
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: I love that.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: Tell us your perspective on anxiety and how it might
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: be different from the more traditional model.
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So, you know, it's interesting because there's a lot of
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: talk about anxiety these days.
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: I think that that's a reality for.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: A lot of people, and with that there becomes a
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: lot of chetter about, you know, what you're supposed to
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: do if somebody's anxious. I was trained in a school
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: of thought that I shall refer to as behaviorism and
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: came into a school of thought that I shall refer
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: to as developmentalism. Over the arc of my career, not
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: just professionally but also personally, when my youngest son was
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: impected by anxiety and I needed to kind of figure out, okay,
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: like what are we going to do and what feels
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: aligned for me? In this where I have landed is
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: this idea that where we often begin with anxiety treatment
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: is not where we should be beginning. We usually begin with,
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: you know, focusing on what's happening inside the child or
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: inside the parent that's this feeling of anxiety, and then
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: we get busy with trying to eradicate that feeling. My
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: understanding of anxiety is that we don't start there. In fact,
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: we have to zoom the lens way out and really
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: take some time to take stock of what's happening around
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: the child and consider very deeply whether or not that
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: environment is working for them. And in the vast majority
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: of cases, I would suggest that the people who are
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: feeling anxious these days should be feeling anxious because they
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: are living a life in an environment that is entirely
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: incongruent with what it is that they need as humans,
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: and so of course they're anxious. We don't treat that
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: by trying to anaesthetize those thought. We treat that by
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: sorting the environment so that it's much more aligned with
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: what the person needs.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and we do push kids into environments, you know,
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: we have these systems like squall and we put them
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: in the environment and we say, this is it, this
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: is what you have to do. You're going to have
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: to figure it out. Right. So I can hear a
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: lot of parents asking already what do we do about
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: the environments where we don't have as much influence over
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: what's going on there.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: You know, it's a great question and the reality of
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: the messy middle that defines our existence right where we're
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: always trying to navigate these things that we can't necessarily control.
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: And I think it comes to two things.
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  Speaker 1: One is to really get fierce in how you are
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: approaching the adjustment of the environment. And so it's not
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: you know, one conversation with a teacher. In my son's case,
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: he had developed profaned school based anxiety. It was many,
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: many conversations with the teacher, with the school counselor with
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: the school administrator, trying to sort of bring a cohesive
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: team together in order to really understand what his needs were.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: And I ultimately made the I suppose radical decision to
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: actually remove my son from that environment because it was
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: so problematic for him.
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  Speaker 3: His older brother, no.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: Issues, was sailing through that, but my little guy was
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: not coping, and so I actually had to get fierce
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: enough that I shifted that environment and I moved him
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: into a school that was maybe more aligned with the
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: kinds of emotional needs that he had and also the
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: learning needs that he had. So I think the first
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: thing is like, we really do need to get kind
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: of fierce about what it is that we are able
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  Speaker 1: to do. We often cut ourselves off at the knees
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  Speaker 1: and think, hm, I don't have any power in this,
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: when really you do have power. So get big, get fierce,
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: get radical about that environment peace, and see what happens.
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: The other thing that.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: I have come to deeply understand that may be helpful
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: is that there's something we can do as parents that
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: activates this invisible string between ourselves and our children, so
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: that when they are away from us having to contend
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: with these challenging kinds of situations, they feel really strongly
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: that they have this connection back to us, and even
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: though we're not there with them, the experience of the
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: relationship provides them this invisible shield that travels with them
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: into whatever environments they might be in.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: Can you tell us what that looks like in real
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: life and practice? Can you give us an example.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'll use an example of when my son
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: was struggling and I would send him off to school
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: every day for six or seven hours away from me,
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: where he had to cross his t's and dodge his
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: eyes and mind his p's and q's and sit crisscross
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: apple sauce, and it was challenging for him. It turned
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: out he had an undiagnosed learning disability and a clinical
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: hearing loss, and all the while was getting reprimanded, you know,
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: for not paying attention and not doing a good enough
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: job and not learning fast enough and so what he needed.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: Because I couldn't be there all day long, I was
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: still you know, first off, I was still kind of
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: cracking the code figuring out what was working and not working.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: And secondly, the reality for our family was that I
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: needed to be employed, so I was working outside the
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: home during the day. But I figured out how to
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: send myself to school with my son so that he
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: would feel my presence. He was young at the time,
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: so six.
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: Going on seven.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: We visited his school playground on the weekends, and we
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: left invisible stashes of kisses underneath the slide at the
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: point where you stand in line waiting to get on
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: the monkey bars. So as he wandered around his school
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: playground during the week he knew the places that we had,
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: you know, created this magic little bubble where he could go.
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: And get a little bit of a mama amazing. Yes,
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: so sweet.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: I got very concrete with him. Again, no dawnstream kickbacks
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: from this company. But I've kept this all these years
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: because I bought this little Komochi it's called and the
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: Mama Heart went to school with my son, and there's
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: a little hook. So we hooked it inside his backpacking
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: and see it's all dirty and old, and again it
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: was filled up with magic mama up. And so if
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: you ever needed just a little top up because the
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: day at school was getting hard, he would just stick
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: his hand in his backpack and squeeze that. And he
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: knew that I had the little kid part of it
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: with me at work or with me on the road
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: if it happened that I was traveling. So I did
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: those things concretely as well. As you know, creating these
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: stories around all of that. The other piece, though, was
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: to really instill in my son the values of how
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: this all flows. So first and foremost, the thing that
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: matters more than anything else is what I think of you.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: And what I think of you is you are magic.
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  Speaker 1: I think the sunrises and sets on you. I think
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: you are like, you know, the essence of a star
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: wrapped up inside a human. And so I don't care
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: what missus so and so has to say or what
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: mister so and so has to say, because this is
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: what the truth is, and so we will abide by
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: that truth in how it is that we live our lives.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: And then make sure that I'm collecting all of his
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: tears around his sorrow that these other folks weren't showing
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: up the same way. So there's something about that shield
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  Speaker 1: when you really get that your parent has been straight
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: with you about the value that you carry as a human,
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: not because you know how to read, or not because
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: you're really good at listening, but simply because you breathe
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: that you are valued and you are worthy. And I
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: can shield you by instilling in you that ultimate belief
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  Speaker 1: that that's how I see things and I will put
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: my money where my mouth is. I will show up
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: and I will make sure that I've got you back
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: in the situations where we really need to be doing that.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: I wish I had heard some of those ideas when
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: my kid was little. The little playground, oh man I
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: did when he was in elementary school also and having
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: a really hard time. I got these little smooth metal
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: coins that you could get engraved, and he could take
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: it in his probably like one set I'll see you
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: soon and Mama loves you and stuff like that, and
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: he would take him in his pocket and he could
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: rub on him and be reminded that, like this part
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: will end and you will be back with me again.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: They were easily lost, but it helped. You know, we
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: had school avoidance and refusal from fourth grade to graduation,
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: and it's so tough, and they do, I think, need
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: the safety that we can provide in those environments when
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: they're not with us, and those are such great ideas
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: to do that. How do parents kind of decode or
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: crack the code as you called it, on what might
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: actually be helpful? What do they need? What is it
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: maybe in the environment that's not working for them, What
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: do they need from us from other people, Like, how
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: do we get started down that path of figuring that out?
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it'll be different, of course for every family,
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: depending on the unique needs that are coming forth and
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: the temperament and personality and everything of those involved. But
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: I think, you know, you could apply a little bit
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: of a formula to it, a soul based kind of formula.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: The first would be to get very relationship focused. That's
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: essentially what we were just speaking about, like how do
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: you be connected whilst apart, because we know as a
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: social species that experience of connection is life sustaining and
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: so you know, the opposite of anxiety, one could say,
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: is connection. And so to really get focused on those
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: relational pieces to kind of get that sort of doubt.
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: The other thing would.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: Be, you know, I sometimes say that you have to
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: be willing to kind of like like just sniff around
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: things for a while.
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: Well, and to be fair, I.
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: Was a trained child psychologist. I have a specialization in
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: how learning comes on board for kids and how reading
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: skills develop and writing skills develop, and maths skills develop.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: And there was my own kid with dyslexia, and I
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: hadn't seen it like I didn't get it. There was
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: my own kid. The first thing I say to every
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: parent who ever comes to be worried about their child's learning,
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: when was the last time you had their vision checked?
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: And one was the last time you had their ears checked?
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: So we can make sure that the systems are I
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: missed it. I missed it entirely.
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: He couldn't hear.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: And so really be gracious with yourselves as parents whilst
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: you're in the sniffing around stages, because it's tricky when
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: you're embedded in the situation to always see it with
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: the kind of clarity that an outside person might. And
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: so spend some time with that. Really listen to your children.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: Don't think of them ever as being manipulative, as trying
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: to kind of get out of things or whatever. Instead,
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: look upon them as kids who are doing the very
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: best that they can to be adaptive, that's the word,
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: not manipulative, adaptive to the situations and circumstances that they
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: find themselves within. And when we can understand children through
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: those kinds of eyes, then we're actually just much more
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: open to hearing and seeing what might be actually up
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: for them, So that you then know, go get your
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: kid a learning assessment, or go get your kid fitted
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: with a hearing aid, you know, like you know then
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: to take those things on because you've really sort of
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: stayed open to it and you haven't assumed through this,
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: you know, childism kind of view that the kid is
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: trying to work it so they can get out of school,
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: but you've really been open to hearing about what might
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: be possibly up underneath it all. So be relationally focused
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: and stay open while you do the sniff around, all
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: the while being very gracious with yourselves, because it's a
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: lot to figure out.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it's a lot to figure out, and we don't know.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: Nobody gives us a parenting manual in the first place,
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: but definitely not one that says there might be some
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: differences here and this is how you figure it out,
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: or these are the people you might look into helping you,
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: or any of that. We get nothing, and so it
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: can be so hard to figure out what to do
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: and to even know that there's this whole range of
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: things that maybe could be a possibility. I mean, so
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: many parents don't even know about dyslexia or dysgraphia or
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: what anxiety sometimes looks like when it doesn't look anxious,
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: and I'm so grateful that you said, don't view it
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: as manipulation. This is something I hear in coaching all
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: the time. I have booked to call with you because
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: my kid is so manipulative and blah blah blah. Right,
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, Okay, well, let's back out from that,
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: because I'm pretty sure that's not really. It feels that
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: way though as a parent, like it feels that way,
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: but it's I think guided by this need for safety
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: and protection, right, and that's where that's coming from. So
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: I'm just so so happy that you said it so
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: concretely for everyone to hear.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: Hi.
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: I'm Noriine Russell, founder of Russell Coaching for Students. If
• 15:22
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• 15:25
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• 16:44
  Speaker 2: Can we talk a little bit then about that's one
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: way anxiety could show up as a manipulation. What are
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: other ways that anxiety might show up? What might it
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: look like on the outside when it doesn't look like anxiety?
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: And that's the tricky shifty thing about anxiety, particularly in children,
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: is that it doesn't often show up in ways that
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: have you full of like heart swells, for your child.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: It often shows up in ways that you're like a wow,
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: so I gave you life and this is what you
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: give me back. They can be a little bit unlikable
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: to be frank when they're in the throes of anxiety.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: And so irritability is a big one for kids, in
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: for adults, but for kids. Because they're still developing that
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: internal capacity to manage big feelings and regulate around their
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: own emotions, that irritability can be extra and so you
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: can watch for that.
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: You can also see you like really heated refusal.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: So you mentioned school refusal a little bit earlier, and
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of times people you know, think
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: about that and they see their kid with puppy dog
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: eyes pleading that I don't have to go to school.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: But a lot of times that isn't puppy dog eyes.
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: It's rage and it's lashing, and it's big tantrums and
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: it's melting down, and it's your kid like really at
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: you instead of at the situation or the environment around them.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: And so it can be like a very sort of
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: labored experience relationally speaking, to stay in your lane as
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: a parent and not take any of what your kid
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: is putting out there personally, because it's not personal, it's anxiety,
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: and that's the only way they know how to manage
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: it is for it to leak out these crusty, kind
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: of difficult.
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: Challenging ways.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: We also see a lot of sleep disturbances and anxiety.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: In fact, all of the anxiety diagnoses in the DSM,
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: if we're going to heed the DSM, which might be
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: another point of discussion, they all have buried in them
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: this idea that sleep gets disrupted, either sleep onset or
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: the continuation of sleep where it becomes interrupted sleep. And
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: so you know, if you have a kid who's super
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: difficult to rouse in the morning because they've had this
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: disturbed sleep, they might not even know that it is
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: disturbed sleep because it might be so the norm for them.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: So you can be watching for sleep disturbances when things
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: have gotten very tricky. The younger the child, the more
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: likely it is to go.
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: Into the body.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: So you can see withholding of bowel movements, urinary overflow
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: when they actually are toilet trained, and that would be
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: unusual for them. So those kinds of body based things,
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: interesting things that pop up with food where they will
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: eat you know, only six things and nothing else, because
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: it's part of how they control their environment and control
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: the world around them. You know, it's a lot of
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: these things that you might not classically see as anxiety,
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: but that that's how it kind of tends to present,
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: particularly in the developing child. M H.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: I think we really always have to ask the question
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: when there's challenging behavior, could anxiety be fueling it? Because
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: I think so often the answer is yes, especially lately,
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: you know, post COVID for kids, I think there's so
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: much more. As you were saying, like it is kind
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: of normal to be anxious about what's going on in
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: the world and how difficult things have been as of late.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: You mentioned the word control, and that connected me straight
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: back to manipulation. But I see often kids who have
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: anxiety really trying to control either others around them, or
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: the situation, or their participation or not, like the school avoidance.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: How else might that need for control show up? And
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: do we honor that need? Do we give them some
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: of that control? Is that a healthy thing to do? Maybe?
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: I mean that control can show up in so many
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: interesting ways. It can show up in ritualistic kinds of behaviors.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm thinking right now of client years and
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: years ago, they had a home invasion, and there was,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: you know, a very ritualistic behavior that developed on the
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: back end of that of a three hour long lock
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: checking routine that needed to happen every single night, or
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: this child could not find any space inside of her
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: soul to actually rest and go to sleep. So, you know,
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: it can come out in ritualistic behaviors. We can also
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: see control showing up in you know, just curious little
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: things like how the stuffies get lined up every night,
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: or it can present in sensory ways, and so all
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: of the sudden, I can only wear really soft clothes,
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: I can't wear anything that taxes my body in any
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: kind of way. So I want to control that. Controlling food.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: Turns out that eating is like we cannot make somebody
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: eat ultimately, because even if they swallow a down, they
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: can throw it back up. And so eating becomes this
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: kind of final frontier in terms of a way that
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: a child would invoke control on the environment around them.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: Kids who show up with what I often refer to
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: as hulk energy, where they are actually the boss of you,
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: and you might not even realize that it's happened, but
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: they're the ones kind of commanding and demanding, and they're
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: large and they're in charge, and they're doing that in
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: an effort to try and control everything around them. You
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: do not want to just let that run its course.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: You do want to pick up the message that's coming
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: forward in that. And one of the things that I
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: think about like, if you ever say to your partner, babe,
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: I don't I don't feel very connected to you. You
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: need to tell me that you love me more, and
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: then your partner turns around and they're like, I love
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: you and you're like, okay, but you just said that
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: because I told you. Like, it doesn't it doesn't land
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: in your soul. It feels like conjured, kind of like
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: you know, it's a forced kind of thing. And it's
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: the same for kids. If they're like, listen, I'm really
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: freaking out over here.
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: And they're trying to let you know, and they're you're.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: Like, yeah, yea, yeah, okay, I'm gonna take care of that. Okay,
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: Well it falls a little flat because they had to
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: tell you you didn't into it it, and so it
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: becomes this tricky thing of trying to be like, oh,
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: that's what they're telling me, and then get a step
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: ahead of it, get a step ahead of it, so
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: that your child experiences you as the one who has
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: moved in so capably to control that environment. That honors
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: the hierarchical ordering of the parent child relationship. And there
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: is an ordering to that right, not in a yucky way,
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: but in a really gorgeous, a really supportive, a really
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: caring way that allows the child to be at rest
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: during their emotional development, so they can just redirect their
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: energy towards growing and going, not having to control everything
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: around them. We want to be the ones that do
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: that for them. So in the case of the lack
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: checking routine, we sure didn't allow that child to carry
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: on with the three hour longlock checking routine. But step
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: one was actually not to get rid of the lock
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: checking routine. Step one was to put the parent in
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: charge of the lock checking routine so that the child
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: was like, Okay, you get it, you understand me, and
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: I can just rest into your care. And now you're
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: back in the lead position. And so now the child
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: is going to be orienting to you. And so when
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: you start to then eventually, not immediately, but eventually you
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: start to curtail that luck checking and routine a little bit.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: They're already at rest, they're already leaning into your capable provision,
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: so they'll be far less likely to be, you know,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: panicked about the fact that you're adjusting the control and
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: far more able to just take your lead and kind
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: of come through things. And so we don't want to
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: shut down the control. And it can show up in
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: a lot of interesting ways.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, I have social anxiety, and it was
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: a real struggle for me, like in my teen and
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: young adult years, and I would go on trips like
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: these teen trips, and I wouldn't eat the whole time.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: I was like, I can't eat in front of people,
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: they might judge me. I can't do And that was
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: my way of trying. And these were like friends, and yeah,
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: I was deep in it deepened the social anxiety, and
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: nobody knew right, like we're talking about a long time ago.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: But yeah, that control can show up in so many
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: really sort of wild ways that we wouldn't always recognize.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: So I appreciate the discussion around that. I think it'll
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: be helpful for parents. Can we talk a little bit
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: before we close about the parent role in the child
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: or adolescence anxiety? And I'm thinking, like, how much do
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: we inadvertently add to it sometimes? How can we show
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: up to be more helpful in anxious moments that sort
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: of thing.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm going to give all the parents in
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: the Land of Free pass right about now, because I
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: actually think it's people like me who have created, in
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: a lot of instances, the anxiety that our children, and
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: to be fair, a lot of grown ups are are
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: dealing with these days.
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: Because when we approach.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: Parenting through the lens of managing behavior and getting it
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: under control and having our children, you know, present all
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: shiny and polished, we will end up squashing spirit. You know,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: we will end up squashing that sort of essence of
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: what makes us human to get a child, to essentially
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: erase their developmental needs and supplant them with our need
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: for them to show up a certain kind of way.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: And because we are a social species, when we are
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: interrupting the relationship that we are naturally meant to have
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: with our children by imposing those kinds of conditions on
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: our children, that's going to make them anxious for the
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: same reasons.
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: You know that.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: Somebody who's excommunicated from whatever society they belong to would
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: become anxious because we are a social species. We are
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: meant to exist in contact, in closeness, and in connection,
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: and if we don't exist in those conditions, it's going
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: to freak us out.
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: Because we're going to get dead.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, if you think it's storically how we've always lived,
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: you've got to have the tribe, and your vibe is
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: your tribe, and they also keep you alive.
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: Right, if you don't have a tribe, you're not gonna
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: do very well out there. And so I think really.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: Honoring that that's a core piece that we show up with.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: It's the essence of who we are as humans. And
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: so to really get connected back to their relationship as
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: a way of understanding how we navigate.
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: And the other thing that.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: I would offer to parents in their relationship with children
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: around this whole piece of anxiety is that think about
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: it like, turn it around, so instead of we're diagnosing
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: the child with anxiety, think in your mind that it's
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: we're diagnosing the environment. So so we're throwing away the
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: diagnostic labels for children, not because they don't get to
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: have them, but because we're going to use that as
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: a mechanism for understanding what our next moves might be,
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: and if we were to diagnose the environment instead, how
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: would we shift things, what kind of new eyes would
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: we bring to the scenario, and how much more at
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: rest would that put our children.
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: I love that idea.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: We talk so much about what needs to shift in
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: the environment, what needs to shift in communication and relationships
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: and all these things for our nerdivergent kids, and that
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: just sort of makes it a lot easier to kind
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: of think about it that way. I'm going to diagnose
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: the environment, what's wrong here, what's out of whack here
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: for this kid? And that's what's really helpful. Yeah, tell
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: everybody where they can find you online and learn more
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: from you. I think you have an anxiety course as
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: well that you offer.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so, doctor Vanesslo Point d are Vanesla point with
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: an E on the end. Dot com is my website,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: and I do have an anxiety course where it's a
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: multimodular course that you go through and you get to
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: sort of sync into some of the principles that you
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: and I have spoken about today.
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: I'm also very.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: Active on social media, and if you are trying to
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: cultivate a feed that tops you up rather than taps
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: you out. I try to put out video content and
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: other quints of things on a pretty regular basis, just
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: so parents get that experience of being seen and heard
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: and maybe get an idea or two that might be
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: helpful as far as how they see their children and
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: the ways that they're stepping in around all of that.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: I also have a membership community where I do monthly
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: q and as and you get a weekly video message
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: from me, as well as the program that I have
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: called the Parent Transformation Journey, which is where I work
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: one on one with parents and we do intakes twice
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: a year for that program.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: Amazing, such good work. I appreciate you so much and
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: sharing some of your time and your wisdom here. I
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: know that the listeners are really going to take away
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: something valuable from this conversation, and that's going to help
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: them and their kids because it's about all of us, right,
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: We all matter. So I will link everything out you
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: just described. All of doctor V's website social media will
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: be linked in the show notes at PARENTINGADHD and autism
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: dot com. Thanks for listening everyone, I will see you
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: next time. Take good care, I see you. You're doing
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: hard and meaningful work. And you don't have to do
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: it alone. If you found this episode helpful, share it
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: with someone who needs it and leave a quick review
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: so others can find this support too. When you're ready
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: for next steps, the Regulated Kids Project is here with
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: the tools, coaching, and community to help you raise a
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: more regulated, resilient child. Get more info at regulated kids
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: dot com.