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REWIND: Three More Yards · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Pittsburgh Sports Memories Podcast.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Tim Hannon.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm Steve Wirt.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: And as usual, we will deep dive into a topic of Pittsburgh Sports Past.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: This week we're going to cover the 1995 Pittsburgh Steelers season.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it was a uh definitely an interesting season um and one that uh ended in in heartbreak unfortunately.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: So let's back up a little bit.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: The Steelers had had fallen on some bad times in the 1980s.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: We actually covered that in a separate podcast, so go back and listen to that one if you haven't already.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: And in 1992, they hired a young coach named Bill Cower.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: And Bill Cower was a disciple of Marty Schottenheimer.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: And his formula was build a team around a strong running game, a very solid defense, and a game manager type quarterback.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: That was the Marty ball formula for winning, and that was the Bill Cower formula for winning.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: And uh Cower found the perfect game manager quarterback Anneil O'Donnell.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: O'Donnell was the perfect QB for the kind of style Cower wanted to play.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: He was not a gunslinger.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: He was a ball control quarterback who um would rather take a sack than than throw into tight coverage.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and you know, th there were three Steeler quarterbacks who who took the teams to Super Bowls And um O'Donnell was completely different than the other two guys, Terry Bradshaw and Ben Rothesberger.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Those guys uh, you know, may have thrown for a lot of yards, may have also thrown a lot of interceptions.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: O'Donnell was a much more uh methodical and careful type quarterback.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely not a um I would call him like a mediocre to solid quarterback, and he definitely had his limitations.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: He couldn't really he didn't have a quick release and he couldn't like get out of the way.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: He was like pretty slow on his feet.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: So two things that you know other quarterbacks that I guess we'll get into later in the podcast, you know, make a nice comparison there.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: But um Neil was pretty good at completing a pass when it was open, but if a guy wasn't open like you said, he wouldn't take a chance with the ball, which I mean I guess you can lose more games doing that than win, but there does come a time when you gotta force it in there on a on a big play.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: So that's that was our Neil O'Donnell.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so so with O'Donnell and that that Cower kind of formula, um the the team sort of has immediate success.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Cower's first two seasons, they make the playoffs and um uh are are eliminated in the first playoff game in both of those years, but certainly the team's showing a lot of improvement after a lot of off years at the end of Chuck Knowles' uh tenure.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then in 1994, everything sort of comes together.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so they that that year, 1994, the Steelers have the number one rushing offense in the league, led by a trio of running backs.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Barry Foster, who to this day actually still holds the Steeler record for rushing yards in a season.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, a rookie named Bam Morris, uh that was his nickname, uh Byron Bam Morris, because he was just this power kind of running back.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then John L.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: Williams, who is a veteran, uh, who was a very solid player as well.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that year they also had the number two defense in the league.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: The defense of coordinator was a guy named Dapers, and the nickname that was given to Don Capers' defense was Blitzburg, because that that defense tended to put a lot of pressure on the quarterback, force the quarterback to make mistakes.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that season the Steelers were just dominant.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: They they ended up uh with a 12-4 record.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: They were the number one seed in the AFC, and the the main competition in the AFC that year was inside the division, was the Cleveland Browns, who were coached by a guy you may have heard of named Bill Belichick.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: And we mentioned that the Steelers had the number one or the number two defense.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um the Browns actually had the number one defense in the league that year.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: And the Steelers and Browns played twice during the regular season.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: They were both really um hard-fought games, and the Steelers won both, which basically just set up um the fact that they would host the divisional playoff game where they'd meet Cleveland for a third time.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: And in that third game, the playoff game, the Steelers won, and I believe won pretty handily.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's one of my favorite Steelers games of all time outside of the Super Bowls.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: They just absolutely smoked Bill Belichick, and you know, no amount of cheating could help him that day because mainly because they're wide receivers, dropped a lot of passes.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: There were some guys open early, but then the Steeler offense just kind of took over and shredded them for uh had to be 30 points.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: And uh Vinny Testav already threw a couple interceptions late.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: So that was kinda the end of uh the Browns there quite for a very long time.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: They really haven't had much success since then.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: That's kind of their high water mark.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: Which was nice.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: Nice to put put our old buddy Bill Belichick, I guess.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: But that led up to um where they're playing the Chargers, who were kind of an upstart team.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: They had uh upset the uh Marty Ball playing Chiefs, if I remember correctly, or was that no, that was the next year.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that was the next year.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think they had well, so that that was that was interesting.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: So so yeah, they're they're hosting now the Steelers are hosting the championship game against the Chargers.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: And you're right, they're like upstarts and and the Steelers are like huge favorites.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're ten-point favorites to to beat the Chargers at home and the championship game, and the Chargers are this Cinderella team, but uh looking back on it, and and I kind of thought that at the time, but looking back on it, if you really look at the context, the Chargers were the number two seed in the conference that year, and they had won the AFC West two out of the last out of the previous three seasons.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't like they came out of nowhere.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: They they were an established good team.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: Bobby Ross was their coach.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: Stan Humphreys was kind of like a Neil O'Donnell style quarterback, and they had a they have nature on means?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: So they're kind of almost a carbon copy of the Steelers, with the and they had a pretty decent defense, too.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: They had Junior Sayo on defense.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and you're right, it was a very similar style team.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: So um they weren't really a Cinderella team, but nevertheless, the Steelers are huge favorites.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think everybody in Pittsburgh certainly expected the Steelers to roll over San Diego in the championship game.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think especially because it was at home, too.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: And they kept and that's the problem with stats sometimes.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: People look at like, oh, well, the Steelers never lose at home.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, that was with like, you know, Terry Bradshaw, Franco Harris, and the Steel Carton defense, okay?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: Not the, you know, quote, my Rick inner Rick Bettino.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: I don't see any of those guys walking through the door and not, you know, this is a different team, and sometimes people get too caught up in like statistics that way.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's true.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: And and so um I think not only the fans expected them to win, the players did.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Eric Green, the tight end for the Steelers, had infamously organized a Super Bowl rap video uh rehearsal in the team meeting room the week before the game, and I I don't remember if that got leaked before the game or after the game, but they were planning a Super Bowl rap video already.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I was at that game and the the the excitement was just palpable because that was the first time that we played in a championship game at Three River Stadium since 1979 when the Skillers had won their fourth Super Bowl.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: So uh that was a long time, that was fifteen years in between.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it was warm that day, it was like 60 degrees even.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was a weird, yeah.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: Even though it was the middle of January.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and the excitement was just through the roof.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody just thought we're going to the Super Bowl.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: This is so exciting.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: And um the game starts, the Steelers go take a 13-3 lead in the in the second half.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um San Diego does, you know, they they really put all their focus on stopping that that number one running game that the Steelers had, and they actually did a pretty good job of stopping the Steelers running game, but the defense, uh defense first game management formula is working for the Steelers.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: And and you mentioned Steve Nitro and Means was their was their their star running back, defense was holding him in check.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: So you're kind of thinking, okay, this is just gonna be one of those low-scoring, you know, 16 to 7 kind of finishes the defense is gonna hold, and and uh and then all of a sudden uh Stan Humphreys, who like you said was sort of that middling, mediocre quarterback, um he hits two 43-yard touchdown passes.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: One is to their tight end, Alfred Papunu.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's on a play where he gets the defense to just bite badly on a play action pass.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then late in the fourth quarter, uh a play that a lot of Steeler fans remember, he hits their receiver Tony Martin on a on a long touchdown pass.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: Martin beats Tim McHire, the Steelers' quarterback.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: That play was on a third and fourteen.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: And Tim McIr, like, that was like the lesson learned from the previous years was the one year that uh they played the Bills, like Rod Woodson got hurt and they didn't have a backup.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: So that was the whole reason they brought in Tim McHire was to give the other corners a break.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think it might have been was that Dion Figures.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: It was figures in Woodson.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and he I think he was in for figures at the time, and he he got burned, and actually McHire wanna end up winning a Super Bowl with San Francisco, I think.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well he hadn't had a good one.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he wasn't a bad player.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: He just I mean, third and fourteen, why yeah.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they had brought him in as a veteran cornerback to sort of stabilize that that third cornerback position.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, you're right.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: It just at the worst time he got burnt.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: So now all of a sudden San Diego has a lead, a four-point lead late in the game.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: The Steelers make one last gasped drive.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh O'Donnell, who actually ends up throwing for over 300 yards in this game, leads him downfield, and the drive comes down to fourth and goal from the three-yard line.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: They call timeout, and they call a quick pass over the middle to Barry Foster.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: And the linebacker for San Diego, Dennis Gibson, reads the play.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: He he um bats the pass down over the middle, the ball hits the turf, and the San Diego Chargers are going to the Super Bowl, and Three River Stadium is just stunned.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was, you know, you could hear a pin drop.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um again, no one really expected them to lose that game, and now San Diego's in the Super Bowl.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I think that hurt for a lot of reasons.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, one one of the reasons was that was the era where the NFC team um would would just win the Super Bowl handily over the AFC team.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: That was a pattern.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: That had been a pattern for over a decade.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: It was always a blowout.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: The NFC team always won handily by by more than two scores.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: And um that year the the NFC championship game was Dallas versus San Francisco.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and Sports Illustrated, the cover of Sports Illustrated, the week leading up to the championship games, was Steve Young and Troy Inkman, and it said the real Super Bowl.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: The NFC Championship game was the real Super Bowl, and the AFC championship game was an afterthought.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: I always thought that was a leftover from the NFL AFL merger, even though that was like like 30 years.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I always thought there was some of that bias going on.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I mean, like you said, Denver had gotten blown out a lot.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: Denver and Buffalo.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there wasn't a lot.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: The AFC teams had had rarely even kept it close, and they had lost at that point something like 11 or 12 in a row.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: And would go on to lose three more times.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and and San Diego, I think, again, what hurt about that was San Diego goes into Super Bowl 29 against the 49ers and they just get absolutely destroyed.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Gary Rice burned their safeties on the like the second play from scrimmage or something.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't even a game.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: And and so for the Steelers, you know, they don't make the Super Bowl, and then they they kind of have this theme, three more yards, because they got stopped on the three-yard line to end the season.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: And there was actually a sign that ends up hanging in the end zone the following season that says three more yards in reference to that into that play, in the end zone where that play happened.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so that's their theme heading in in the next season.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: The offseason, though, brings a lot of changes.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um this is an era where NFL free agency is just beginning.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, the NFL did not have real free agency until I believe it was 92, 93.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Reggie White.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: Reggie White went to Green Bay from Philadelphia.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, I think I I want to say that was 93.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: So free agency is very new at this point.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: And and so the Steelers, along with the rest of the league, really is just learning how to navigate this.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you see some teams kind of going out and spending huge amounts of money and maybe not thinking about the ramifications and the salary cap.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: The Steelers kind of went the opposite way, where if a guy became a free agent, Tom Donahoe was the GM in that era.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: If a guy became a free agent, we just kind of let them go most of the time.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and in that year, um Eric Green, uh who had led the team in receiving yards in '94, became a free agent.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: He signs with Miami.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: Gary Anderson, the kicker, the the all-time great Steelers kicker who had been with the team for 13 seasons, uh, signs as a free agent with the Eagles.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then Barry Foster, who wasn't a free agent, but was threatening to hold out and had some other antics going on.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they just said, you know what, we're done with you, and they and they released him.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: So so really, you know, your your your offense is going through massive change.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: On the defensive side, uh it was pretty stable.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think they lost any key players on the defensive side.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: However, they did lose their defensive coordinator, Dom Capers.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: He leaves to become the uh head coach of the expansion Carolina Panthers.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and so um so so really on offense you you have um you you had this sort of run first formula.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Is that still gonna work without Foster Green and Anderson?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the offensive coordinator at that time is Ron Earhart.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: He had been the offensive coordinator since Coward's first year, um, and then he had previously been the offensive coordinator under Bill Parcells when they were winning Super Bowls in New York.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um but but they also had a wide receiver coach named Chan Gailey, who uh had an increasingly larger and larger say in the offense, uh especially um into 1995 and actually would end up getting promoted to be the offensive coordinator in 1996.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um so so they they lose those key players.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: The running backs are now Bam Morris and they signed a free agent, Eric Pegrim, who ends up becoming a uh important player.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: All five foot one of them.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Short short player, but sort of a shifty player.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: Running back.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he was a good, good little like nice chain.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: They had a nice one-two punch there.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thunder and lightning.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: So that that ended up working out.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then and then on the receiver side, again, Green, the tight end was their leading receiver.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: The the wide receivers were totally unproven.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: The wide receivers were Yancey Thickpen, Andre Hastings, Ernie Mills, and Charles Johnson.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And none of those guys had ever caught more than forty balls in a season.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: So just a totally unproven group of wide receivers.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Yancey Thickpen, it's an odd numbered year, so he's he's good.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: He's only good in odd numbered year.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: But he had he hadn't started.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: He had a bad feet.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: He had like had a lot of injuries to his feet.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that took a toll.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: He did.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: But he was still a good good wide receiver.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well he was, but I think heading into 1995, nobody knew that yet.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: He hadn't done anything yet.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um in the draft, they they in the first round, they picked a tight end Mark Brunner to replace Green.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then in the second round, so so in 1995, O'Donnell's heading into the final year of his contract.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: And again, the trend has sort of been let these guys go rather than attempt to get into a bidding war.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so in the second round, they drafted a quarterback, Cordell Stewart.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: And Cordell was definitely a very different kind of quarterback than Neil O'Donnell, wouldn't you say?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely uh option quarterback, runner, um, strong arm, not the most accurate, um, really didn't know how to read a defense at that point in his career.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um I would say also like kind of like as a like a more overarching like theme, like you got to remember in '92, that's when Sid slid.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: So like I think the city sports-wise had gone through like kind of a traumatic event there.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: And then two years later, it's like, well, now it's the Steelers, and they never that never happens to the Steelers.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it's kind of like almost history repeating itself where the Steelers lose to this underdog team that everybody thought they should have beat.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's kind of like the Pirates, and then Barry Bonds leaves.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: Well, now it's kind of happening again to the Steelers.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, uh-oh, all the free agents are leaving.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I think like in general, like sports fans in the city were starting to like kind of is this how it's going to be for Pittsburgh now?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: We're going to like kind of be like Buffalo or Kansas City, where you just never quite get there, and then all your players, you know, you lose them to the bigger markets.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's a really interesting parallel.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: I never thought about that.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: And you're right.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that was probably a lot of fans.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was when I was researching this and looking at some of the old articles, it sounded like there was a lot of gloom and doom heading into that 95 season.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what you just described is probably why the fans felt that way.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: Did Leon Searcy leave that?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: No, he left the year after.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: They lost an offensive lineman, I think was Duvall Love that year.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: So they do they did lose an offensive lineman.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: But I remember they lost Searcy in the next couple years, too.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it was kind of like a continuing trend.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: It was.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: They they ended up losing a lot of players during that era.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: Chad Brown.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: They never really figured out um until probably seven, eight years in, really until Kevin Colbert came, I think, how to really manage the salary cap and free agency.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you don't see that anymore, but you're right, at the time it felt like the Pirates.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, okay, we lost, now all of our best players leave, and we're just gonna stink.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: So so yeah, there was a lot of question marks heading into that season.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: And and again, on the defensive side of the ball, still the same core players, but you have a new defensive coordinator.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's a guy named Dick Lebeau, who was the defensive backs coach.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, not a lot of people knew much about Dick Lebeau.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, today, um, a lot of people in Pittsburgh know who Dick LeBeau is, and he led he led four different defenses for the Steelers to four different Super Bowls.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't know why he was a defensive backs coach because like he was an off a defensive coordinator in Cincinnati in the Super Bowl under Weich.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: So boy, the Steelers really got a steal there with uh coaching.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: They really stole a coach there.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: They did, yeah.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's a good question.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Why was he not just the defensive coordinator somewhere else?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess his star was not as bright at the time.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um so he was he got promoted, and the defense, you know, ends up having a really good replacement for Don Capers.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: So they head into the season.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: The very first game is at home against the Detroit Lions, and Detroit had a running back named Barry Sanders.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're if you're too young to remember Barry Sanders playing, like go look up just go to YouTube and type Barry Sanders highlights.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because Barry Sanders might have been the most exciting football player I've ever watched.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: He was just fun to watch.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: He he made these amazing runs.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: He he just just an all-time great football player and didn't play against the Steelers, certainly didn't play in Pittsburgh very much because he was in the NFC.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, he's coming to Three River Stadium, and the big fear is, oh my gosh, how are we gonna stop Barry Sanders?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: And the defense actually does a pretty good job stopping him.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: He has a hundred yards in this game, um, but he doesn't reel reel off any of those huge, you know, 60-yard Barry Sanders runs.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Barry Barry Sanders was a was a different kind of running back.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like he wasn't three yards in a cloud of dust, he was more of a game breaker.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that kind of hurt Detroit in that area.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like they never could quite figure out how to consistently use it.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I couldn't imagine like if somebody he would have been like a rich like a Rich Rodriguez spread offense.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, talk about the perfect, perfect like all one-on-one matchups for Barry Sanders, that would have been like a dream offense for him.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: But Barry Sanders retired early, and I think he's still like the third all-time leading rusher.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: If he would have played in like one of those modern spread offenses, or if he would have been behind like the Dallas offensive line of that era.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he would he would have had a great quarterback.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think he had all kind of mediocre to not very good, I mean Rodney Pete, Eric Kramer.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he he definitely could have had a a career that that would have never been matched.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, the the big damage that he does in this game, sadly for the Steelers, is um he's running outside on the three rivers turf and he makes a cutback.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: Rod Woodson is chasing him.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: Rod Woodson tries to cut back, plants his foot on the three rivers turf, which is basically concrete, and tears his ACL and is presumably out for the season.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: That was bad, yes.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: That was real bad.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um that same game, the Steelers also lost O'Donnell and the backup quarterback, Mike Tomzak, on a very violent hit.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that was like the one where Mike Tomzak, like, he was scrambling, and if he would have turned any other direction except for the way he turned, he would have been he turned literally into a defensive lineman.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: One of the most violent hits.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how they got up from that.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're down to their third string quarterback who's Kim Miller.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: But they fight through the game's tied 2020 in the final seconds.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And they have a chance to win it on a field goal attempt.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: How do we have like four quarterbacks that ended up winning 13 games?
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: Do you realize every one of those quarterbacks?
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: Eventually somewhere like Jim Miller ended up winning 13 games for Chicago.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: Tomzek, well, maybe Tomzek didn't win 30, but it won like 10 or 11 with us one year.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: Even Cordell probably was a healthy scratch ended up having a 13.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like all four of those guys won divisions, I think.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: You could say you could like I think, yeah, and you're right.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: All four were on the roster at that time.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't think about that thing, right?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: So they trot out, for the game winning field goal, they trot out Norm Johnson, who, as a 14-year veteran, who was signed literally like two days before the opening game, because again, Gary Anderson had left.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: The guy they had signed to replace him was uh a guy named Dean Biasucci, who just had a disastrous preseason and they had to cut him and they had to pick up Norm Johnson and say, hey, welcome to the team.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Can you please go out and kick the game-winning field goal on opening day, which Norm Johnson does.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: Norm Johnson actually ends up being a pretty reliable kicker uh for the next few years.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so they win, but it's a it's a pretty costly win.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: O'Donnell um is out for about a month.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think he broke his hand.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but Tomzek had proven to be a really capable backup quarterback.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um he had won some very key games the year before during that march to the championship game the year before.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: So that that wasn't too bad.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: And O'Donnell was coming back.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: The the loss of Woodson was really the the big disaster.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's there's just no way to quantify what Woodson meant to the team at that point.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I I we mentioned in one of the previous podcasts, you know, Steve and I were born sort of in the mid-70s.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't we didn't have the opportunity to see Joe Green and Jack Lambert and Mel Blunt.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: But in my opinion, post-70s, Rod Woodson's the greatest post-70s stealer.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I just in my humble opinion.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: Can I do you one better?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: Rod Woodson's the the best defensive back to play in the NFL.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, Deion Sanders and you know Richard Sherman, those guy I mean, the guy that was an all-pro at corner and safety, probably should have played safety, but could was fast enough to play corner, has more interceptions than Dion Sanders, and don't tell me about nobody throwing at him, whatever Dion.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: Had more punt returns than Dion, has more uh fumbles and interceptions returned than Dion.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: So Dion is a great player, but Rod Woodson was better and he could tackle people.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: And Rod Woodson was very clutch.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like Rod Woodson just could come up with that big, huge play whenever you needed to.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, he could tackle people too.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry, you tackling is part of football.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: And if you don't want to do it, that's great, you know.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: But Rod Woodson is I'd argue that the I'm blue in the face is much better than Deion Sanders.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I mean I think But that shows you the size of the loss, too.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, right.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: And we haven't even mentioned the they lost the other corners.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: So so right.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's not only it's a disaster because you lose, like you said, possibly the greatest defensive back in NFL history.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you also you also going into that season, the other starting quarterback was cornerback was Dion Figures, who had been was driving around Los Angeles at like three in the morning and was shot in the knee.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh it was just a totally random act of violence, really unfortunate.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: And uh he he came back from the injury, but he never really came back.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so he doesn't really play a whole lot that season.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: So now they're down, they're starting two cornerbacks for for most of the season, and the starting cornerbacks at this point were a third-year guy named Willie Williams, who we'll talk a little bit more about later, and then a journeyman named Alvoid Mays.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: And uh at least initially, those two guys really could not cut it.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so week two, they go down to Houston, they win, they're 2-0.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but the defense, and and especially the secondary, really starts to come unglued.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: They dropped two games in a row, one's at Miami, um, one's at home against Minnesota.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: The the home game they dropped against Minnesota, um, Steve, I don't know if you remember this, but um the referees call it a too many men on the field, penalty.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: There's only 11, yeah.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: And there was actually 11 guys that messed it up.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: And Cower got a photo of the play because they do those little overhead photos, and he ran up to the referee and he stuffed it in his pocket and said, look at the picture.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um that play ended up, or that call ended up actually not being crucial because Minnesota won that game by a lot of points.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: So now it's two and two.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Again, the defense is definitely not looking good.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um they they come back and they they have a rematch with San Diego, they win that game, and O'Donnell comes back, so now you're thinking, okay, maybe we'll write the ship here.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: But then they drop two more games, and this time it was against bad teams.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Minnesota and Miami were good teams.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh now they drop a game in Jacksonville against the Expansion Jaguars, who again were an expansion team, not very good.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: That was a shocker.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then they come back home and they play a Thursday night game against Cincinnati uh at the River Stadium, and they just get throttled by Jeff Blake, the Bengals quarterback.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Steve and I had the unfortunate pleasure of attending this game together back then.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: Steve Steve, what do you remember about Jeff Blake on that Thursday night?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: I remember Carl Pickens.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: They couldn't cover Carl Pickens at all, and like Jeff Blake loved to throw them rainbows, you know.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I mean, his ball will be like 40 yards in the air, but like you said, Alvoid Mays was not up to the task at that point.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: It was panic time.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like Alvoid was definitely like, come back, come back, please, wait for me.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like he just wasn't fast enough to play corner in the NFL.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, neither am I, so I who might have criticized Alvoid Mays.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, but uh Yeah.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it wasn't good.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't good.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: So now after dropping that game, the Steelers are three and four.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: So you so you're heading into the season, you know, with a lot of question marks, and you're heading into the season really wanting to uh redeem that whole loss in the championship game, and you're three and four, and now it's kind of looking like, boy, this is going to be a lost season.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and so at this point, adjustments are made on both sides of the ball.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: On offense, because these four losses are kind of down a lot, they start end up throwing the ball more.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: And they decide to s sort of shift away from that run first formula that they had so much success with.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: And again, like we mentioned Ken Gailey, he start starts having more and more influence over the offense.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the team starts opening it up in the air and they start employing four and five wide receiver sets, which would have been unheard of previously under Cower or Null for that matter.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: Just the sight of the Steelers lining up with four or five wide receivers was just a strange sight.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think a lot of teams in the league did that back then either, really.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: Compared to today, definitely not.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and then on the defensive side of the ball, uh Carnell Lake, who is the s the starting strong safety, is asked to move to cornerback because, as you said, Steve, you know, they they did not have any options really at cornerback.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: And um I I found an interview with Carnell Lake years later where he was recounting Dick Lebeau coming to and coming to him and asking him to to play cornerback, and he thought it was crazy uh but he agreed to do it.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that ends up being a huge decision.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he ended up playing well.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think what they figured out was they had another guy that could play safety better than Alvoid Mays could play corner.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was Chris Oldham, was the other safety?
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so Chris Oldham was serviceable at safety, and if Carnellake could just not at be mediocre at corner, you were already ahead of the game.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: And that I think that was kind of the calculation.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: It took him a couple weeks to figure that out, but that's good coaching by uh Lebeau and Cower, I mean, on their part.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you gotta win with the team you have, not the team you had last year.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: So it was a great, great move by them.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: Save their season.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because they were three and four at that point.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: I forget the stats back then that not a lot of teams had made the playoffs at three and four.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: Now it seems almost commonplace, but back then.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Three and four is like halfway through the season.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's seven w seven games.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's different than one and two, right?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's like that's that's deep into the season.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and you're right, that that did save the season.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think you you're right.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: It was a it was a really brilliant coaching move.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I I I Carnot Lake's one of those stealers, you know, when you think of when you list like the all-time great stealers, I he's not often in the conversation.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think he should be.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think he's like an underrated all-time great stealer because there's all the success they had during that era, I don't I don't think they have that success without Carnot Lake.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: He definitely um solidified the secondary, which helped.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: He really was he was a linebacker in college, which is odd that you know normally linebackers don't move the corner, right?
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: But uh but he but like once again he was kind of a hybrid.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: He's like almost ahead of his time, but that was the Dick Lebeau defense was you know, you can go one of two ways.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: You can either get, you know, the skinny linebacker or the fat safety.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: So he was kind of like a skinny linebacker, quite honestly, and that that's that worked out well for him.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: And it worked out well for the Steelers.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: The Dick Lebeau defenses were always built around that strong safety too, like Troy Palomalo in the in the 2000s, and it was really Carnot Lake in the 90s.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: So so so that starts to write the ship.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um and the good news for the Steelers is that the AFC Central division that year is not very good.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: The Bengals and Oilers are mediocre teams, the Jaguars are an expansion team, they're pretty bad.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the main competition for the Steelers that year was supposed to be Cleveland again.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they they again those were the two best teams in the conference the year before, and a lot of people had picked Cleveland to go to the Super Bowl in '95.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: But uh that was the year that Art Modell announced in the middle of the season that he was going to move the franchise to Baltimore.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that just completely torpedoed the season for the Browns.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so really um the Steelers are are still in a good in a good spot even at three and four because the division's so bad.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um Cower pulls the team in and he says, you know what, we're starting a nine-game season.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: That this is next week is week one of our nine-game season, it's a fresh slate.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, I don't know how much that factored in to the success that they had after that, but it it certainly seemed to work, and everybody seemed to buy into it.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so they start this this fresh nine-game season, they play Jacksonville again, it's time they win, they get back to 500.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then the the following week, they play in Chicago in what I think is one of the the more underrated great games of the Coward era.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: This the Steelers playing in Chicago in '95.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um the Bears are in first place in the NFC Central Division at this point.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: They have one of the league's best offenses.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: And the Steelers, Bears Ri, you know, series, which had dated back to 1933.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: The Steelers had never won a game in Chicago before that.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: So every game that they played at Soldier Field before that, they had lost.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: That's not hard to believe.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, even the 70s, like it's just, you know, they didn't win even once through that whole era.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, how many times have they played?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: Not often.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: Not often, but you'd think they'd win one.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and so and so they go out there and the game quickly turns into a shootout.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: There's four ties and five lead changes, not to mention a combined nine turnovers.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and the game's tied in the fourth quarter.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: O'Donnell throws a bad pick six, uh, and the Bears take a 34-27 lead.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: The Bears then have a chance to ice the game on a 44-yard field goal attempt.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but their kicker, Kevin Butler, he misses the kick.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Kevin Butler was their kicker, was a longtime kicker for that team.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: I believe he was the kicker on the Super Bowl XX, um, the 85 Bears team.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wait.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: So he'd been with the team for many years, and when he missed that field goal after the game, he blamed the Soldier Field Turf, which he called, quote, a piece of bleep, and said the Bears have no pride and the city has no pride.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that was sort of the end of Kevin Butler's time in Chicago.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but that aside, that gave the Steelers another chance.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: O'Donnell put together a 65-yard drive.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and at this point, the wide receivers are starting to really come up clutch in some of these games.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: Hastings and Charles Johnson both had uh key third-down receptions to keep the drive alive, and then O'Donnell hit Ernie Mills for an 11-yard touchdown to cap the drive with just over a minute left in the game.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: And Cower actually lined up to go for the two-point conversion to win, but the Bears called timeout.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: Cower changes his mind, kicks the extra point, goes into overtime.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: In overtime, O'Donnell leads another drive, uh, which sets up a game-winning field goal.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so the Steelers come out of Chicago with a win, uh, with a five-and-four record.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: They now have the lead in the AFC Central Division, and it's a lead they will never relinquish the rest of the season.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: That is an underrated game, yeah, because it switched from, like you said, the run heavy defense first to the passing 341 yards.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: That was uh outside of the AFC championship game the year before.
• 35:33
  unknown: Yeah.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and he and he threw 52 passes in that game.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they threw the ball a lot.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, which again was and that was not like we were down by 20 points and you're just throwing the ball.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: That was a that was a tight game the whole way through.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: And O'Donnell threw 52 passes.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: So you're right, Steve.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's significant, you know, they needed to win, obviously, and keep pace, but but also it really marks the shift from that old kind of run-first, defense-first mentality uh into a uh a new era of the Steelers offense, and it proved that they could compete in games that were shootouts.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: That game was a shootout.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: The Bears had a good offense, the Bears were scoring, the Steelers kept matching them, and the Steelers ended up uh, you know, having the ball last, so to speak.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that was not the way the Steelers were used to winning games.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: So very significant.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: After that, the Steelers would go on an eight-game winning streak, they would uh clinch the division, they would knock down the number two seed in the AFC uh and that offense just kept rolling the whole time.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: So so a few memorable memorable games down that down that stretch.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh week eleven they played a Monday night football game at home against the Browns.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: That was that was scheduled as a Monday night football game because again, that was supposed to be the big rematch, Steelers versus Browns.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it it kind of turned into a wake.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um the the there were a lot of Browns fans standing outside the River Stadium protesting, and a lot of Steelers fans wore orange armbands into the game to sort of show our support for the Cleveland fans.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um it just was strange because 94 was the height of that rivalry.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um all the years that the Steelers and Browns played each other, it was never as intense and as meaningful as it was in 1994, and it's never been that intense or meaningful since.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and you go from that to, you know, uh wearing orange armbands feeling sorry for their their fans and their in their city.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um it was just a a real weird shift.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the game itself, the Steelers won, and the the significant part about that game was it was really the game where they started to use uh Cordell Stewart.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think you you said like those first couple games he was probably just a healthy scratch.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: He was the four-string quarterback because they had decided to keep four quarterbacks.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: But when they started employing those five wide receiver sets, I forget who the fifth wide receiver was, I want to say like Johnny Barnes or Corey Holiday, but whoever that fifth receiver was was hurt and they didn't have another fifth receiver.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: So they brought Cordell in to be the fifth receiver, and they also started using him under center to run like gadget plays or option plays.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: And in that in that Cleveland Monday night game, um he had a great play where where he took a snap and he ran all the way to one side of the field.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: All the way to the other side of the field and threw a touchdown pass to Mills.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: It was the defensive genius couldn't figure that one out.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: I never gets old taking shots at Belichick.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, that that was really the cheat your way on that one.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: That was really the only time we ever got the better of Bill Belichick, so you gotta bask in it while you can.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so they they beat Cleveland.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: Another another big game was week twelve.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: They play at Cincinnati.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: And um just like in that first match off matchup, Jeff Blake starts throwing those rainbows that you talked about.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: And the Bengals actually go up 31 to 13.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that once again, they're blowing out the Steelers because the defense has no answer for Jeff Blake.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: This time, instead of getting blown out, the offense comes back, scores 36 unanswered points on five second-half touchdowns.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: I actually watched that game a while back.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't destroy the set again.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, Dave.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: Stop.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm klutzing.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, Dave.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: So on five second half touchdowns, and go.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, uh Cordell was open over the middle a lot.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: Neil just Neil O'Donnell didn't like to throw the ball over the middle for some reason.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: And Cordell, they where they had him, he was going over the middle a lot.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: And uh once he started throwing over the middle, they had no answer, and that was really really what kind of uh the catalyst for the offense that day was Cordell Stewart.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: Cordell has a 71-yard touchdown reception in that game.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a good one.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: He was open a lot more too.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: Even in the earlier game, that Thursday night game, I remember like you pointed him out, he came out and he was open and he wouldn't throw him the ball.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: It was kind of another little Neil O'Donnell bugaboo, I guess.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and at this point, whatever that bugaboo was, I think they had figured it out.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: O'Donnell had 377 yards in that game.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um so so again, the offense continues to roll.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh week 16, they play at home against the Patriots.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's another high-scoring shootout game.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's tied at 27 with two minutes left.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: And O'Donnell hits Ernie Mills on a 62-yard bomb where he gets behind the safety, and that's how they beat New England is on a 62-yard bomb with two minutes left.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um so so all of these games really the you know, the the thread through all these games is the Steelers winning, unlike they did at any other time under Cower, uh, either before that and probably after that too.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um You know, the the they they weren't playing ball control, they weren't relying on the defense to hold a lead late in the fourth quarter and force a turnover to hold the three-point lead.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: They were relying heavily now on what is now a very dynamic offense to make big plays and to win shootouts.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: So the season ends, the regular season ends with the Steelers having the fifth rated offense in the NFL, and that would have been higher had, you know, we had the three and four part of the season not existed.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Yancy Thickpen finishes with 85 receptions and 1,300 yards.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: He gets selected as a Pro Bowl.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: O'Donnell throws for a career high 247 yards per game.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: Pegram actually ends up leading the team in rushing.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um you mentioned he was he was kind of small.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: He I think that fit the offense that year because they could throw to him out of the backfield, um, they could do draw plays, things of that nature.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: They they didn't have the power running game.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that was also by necessity because Bam Morris, the power running back, had a a setback that season.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: He had showed up to training camp overweight and ended up losing a lot of his playing time to Pegram.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Although Bam would would end up being key in the postseason, we'll we'll get to that uh later.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um so the offense, again, really dynamic.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: The defense certainly, you know, without Woodson is nowhere near as dominant as they were in 1994.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: But they're they're still they're still fairly tough to play against.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Lake, you know, gets it just what is such a testament to him.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: He gets selected to the Pro Bowl as a cornerback.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: So he makes that move to cornerback and gets selected to the Pro Bowl as a cornerback.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Greg Lloyd and Kevin Green also made the Pro Bowl as uh linebackers.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: Ray Seals, the defensive end, he had nine sacks that year.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: And the they also had these uh very young inside linebackers who were really starting to uh contribute, uh Chad Brown and Levon Kirkland, who would both become uh very key players in the near future.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then Willie Williams, we talked about Willie Williams, had got thrown in there a cornerback uh on the other side of Carnell Lake and really struggled early.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um he he overcame that.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: He actually finished the year with seven interceptions, which is a lot.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, seven interceptions is nothing to sneeze at.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um he was kind of an undersized player, but he was one of those guys that like always played, I always felt like he played like above his pay grade.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_02: He ended up having a successful career.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think he had a you know a long, long career in the NFL and a solid player, just one of those solid kind of glue player guys that you need.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know, a good solid um I don't know if he's like he's like kind of in between a backup and a starter, like you know, maybe maybe not a Pro Bowl starter, but a good player, and you can count on him when you need him.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: And he definitely bailed us out this season.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: He did, absolutely.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: And you mentioned his long career.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh a fun fact about Willie Williams, he's the only Steelers player to be on the roster for both Super Bowl thirty and Super Bowl forty.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_02: Willie was around a while.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: He was.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: I I think Super Bowl forty, he was on his second stint with the Steelers.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: He had gone to, I think, Seattle for a bunch of years and then come back.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: But yes, he did have a pretty long career.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um so so the Steelers are in the playoffs.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: The first playoff game in the divisional round is against the Buffalo Bills.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Buffalo, we we kind of talked about them earlier.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: They they had won the AFC four times in a row.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: They were this great team with a an oh offense.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: By 1995, that was definitely starting to waver.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: They weren't the same team they were, but they still had those, you know, Kim Kelly, Therman Thomas, Andre Reid.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then that year, specifically on defense, uh they led the league in sacks.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: They had a really strong defense, and they had the defensive player of the year, uh Bryce Popp, their linebacker, was the the NFL's defensive player of the year.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: So they're really, really strong defense.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: The Steelers catch a little bit of a break in this game.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: Bruce Smith, the Hall of Fame defensive lineman, doesn't even make the trip to Pittsburgh.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: He's bedridden with the flu.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's sort of a lucky break for the Steelers.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because it wasn't even like an on-the-field injury.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: He literally couldn't get out of bed with the flu.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um I remember the the the days leading up to that game, there was a lot made of the fact that the Bills had a private plane ready to go in case like Saturday morning, his game was on a Saturday, so Saturday morning he woke up and all of a sudden was feeling better.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: They were gonna take a private plane and fly him to Pittsburgh and somehow get him to three-real stadium in time for the game.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: That never happened.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um the game itself wasn't very close.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: The Steelers jumped out to a big lead early.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um Greg Lloyd hurt Jim Kelly.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Alex Van Pelt, the former pit quarterback, came into the game for a while.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Jim Kelly came back into the game.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um the Bills started to mount a comeback in the second half of that game, largely off the back of two bad Neil O'Donnell interceptions, uh insert foreshadowing here.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but but it's really not that close.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and Bam Morris has 106 yards and two touchdowns in this game.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: So we mentioned Bam kind of didn't have a Bam kind of had a disappointing season, um, but in the playoffs he kind of roars back, and in this game he he's dominant.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: So the Steelers beat the Bills, now they're back in the AFC championship game again.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and this time the opponent is the Indianapolis Colts.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we talked about was San Diego really a Cinderella team or not.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: Indianapolis was for sure a Cinderella team.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um the the Colts back then, you know, again you have to remember this in context because I think when you think of the Colts today, you think of Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck and a lot of successful teams that they had.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: In 1995, uh they were seen as one of the the the worst teams, one of the worst franchises really in the league.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: Between 1978 and 1994, they made the playoffs once and they lost their one playoff game that they played in.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um they were they were viewed as a poorly run organization.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: They had drafted John Lway in 1983.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: L Way refused to play for them and they had to trade him.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they had moved from Baltimore to Indianapolis in the middle of the night uh under the cover of darkness.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and they were infamous for drafting poorly.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: There was one year, I I think it was 1992, where they had not only the number one pick in the draft, they had the number two pick in the draft.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: They had the first two picks, you know, which is like unheard of.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: You could build a dynasty with the first two picks in the draft, and they blew them both.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: They drafted Steve Etman and Quentin Koriat, uh, who were both busts.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: And um and they were so bad at drafting Mel Kuyper, the ESPN analyst.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: You you remember this, Steve?
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: He like got into a fight with their general manager.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember the details.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: I just remember they were like arguing on the air.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that was in the middle of like ESPN's draft coverage, like, why'd you pick this guy?
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we like him.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the Colts general manager were said as, you know, who the heck is Mel Kuiper?
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and you know, but but Mel Kyper wasn't wrong.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean the the the the Colts were just not a good franchise.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: They weren't good at anything, playing football, drafting players, what have you.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think they had I think well Rosenblum owned the team in the eighties and he was the I think he was the guy who moved them to Indianapolis.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then now I don't know if Ursay had come in yet, but they've had they've had some kind of shaky ownership over the years out there in in uh Colts land.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean Yeah, and it was just everybody knew the Colts.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: The Colts are just one of the bad teams.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_01: That was that was that way for years.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: And and really 1995 wasn't all that different because um they hovered around 500 for most of that season.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, really the only difference was they were mediocre instead of just really bad.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: They had Marshall Falk, too.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's a pretty good guy to have on your team.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: They that was one graph pick that they they uh hit on was Marshall Falk.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: And uh their quarterback was a guy named Jim Harbaugh, who is currently the head coach at the University of Michigan.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: At that time, he was a veteran NFL quarterback who had flamed out with the Chicago Bears.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um he had infamously had like a huge fight on the sidelines with Mike Ditka.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: It was a lot of up and down for him in Chicago.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_02: If you have him and Tomzak on the same team, you're gonna have a little bit of a that that's too many alpha dogs in the room there.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_02: Him and Ditka, too.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, oh my goodness.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and and yeah, now now that Harbaugh has been a coach for many years and you we sort of know his personality better, like you said, you can see why.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Tomzak's the same way, and Ditka's the same way, so could you imagine all three of them?
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_02: Trevor Burrus A lot of headbutting.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: So so he flamed out in Chicago.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um he went to Indianapolis.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even think he was a starter when he went there, but he became the starter.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: And in 1995, uh again, they're they're hovering around 500 most of the season, but the games that they're winning, it's because it's they're very close games, and Harbaugh is leading them to last-minute drives, and he earns the nickname Captain Comeback.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so um so they squeeze into the playoffs, and even in even though they squeezed into the playoffs as a wild card, nobody really expected much of them.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um especially after the first series of the first playoff game, uh Marshall Falk got hurt.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, like you said, he was Hall of Fame running back, their best player, and he's hurt on the first series, never came back.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_02: But they had Lamont Warren.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: They had Lamont Warren.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean he's not Marshall Falk, but he's a he's a serviceable running back.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: Serviceable running back, but still still I wouldn't say anybody expected them to make any noise in the playoffs, but they they won at San Diego, and then the following week they go to Kansas City and they pull off just a massive upset of the team.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_02: That was Marty Ball.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_02: That was that was Lynn Elliott missing like, oh my goodness.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think he missed like three field goals.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and he looked like a Viking while doing it.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_02: He was wearing like chain mail on his head or something.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's like what were you Lynn Elliott?
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_02: That was that was bad.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_02: Kansas City should have never lost that game.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_02: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: But they did.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they did.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_02: But they did.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so and so now the Steelers are hosting the AFC championship game, and I think there's a lot of consternation on the part of Steeler fans.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: I know I felt it because of the way the previous season had had ended.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think uh everyone was expecting Steelers at Arrowhead for the championship game.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: Now we're hosting the championship game, which is great, but now we're once again playing a team that, you know, we're favored to beat by a lot of points.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, oh my gosh, this is deja vu.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that any of the anxiety was lessened after the first pass of the game, O'Donnell threw an interception, the Colts kick a field goal, and and again, you're kind of thinking, oh my gosh, it's gonna happen again.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um but the Steelers steady themselves, um, they take the lead right before halftime, thanks to a Cordell touchdown reception.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_02: Which shouldn't, which wouldn't have been I I remember an article in the paper, like after that happened, like uh because like the chief had been dead.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like, oh, maybe the chief from heaven blew a little smoke in the referee's eyes, you know, because Cordell had stepped out and then caught the pass.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it stepped out of bounds.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: That should not have been a touchdown, it was a bad call.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um and there was no instant replay back then.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that was that was a lucky um play that benefited the Steelers.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and the game's kind of tight, the game's kind of close all the way into the fourth quarter.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: Steelers still have the lead.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then Harbaugh hits Floyd Turner, wide receiver on a 47-yard touchdown bomb down the left sideline, and it gives the Colts a 16-13 lead.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think I remember punching the couch at home at that point.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, because it was the same thing.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_01: It was just like the previous year.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's we're up in the fourth quarter, and the other team throws a long touchdown pass against our vaunted defense to give them the lead.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's it's it is literally deja vu.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and the only the only hope was, okay, but this year the offense is different.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: The offense is gonna bail us out.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: But on the ensuing possession, the Steelers go three and out and have to punt the ball back to the Colts.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: And now, with um about three minutes left in the game, the Colts have a third and one at their own 30-yard line with a chance to potentially ice the game.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: And Lamont Warren, who you mentioned before, Steve, was the starting running back at this point for Indianapolis.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: They hand off to him uh and he goes uh to his left and he has a hole the size of Canada to run through, literally.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was big.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: It was he's gonna get the one yard for sure.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: He's probably gonna get 30, 40 more yards because there is nobody on that side of the field.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: And Willie Williams, who we said is playing way above his pay grade this season, literally comes from the other side of the line of scrimmage and tackles Lamont Warren from behind.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_02: By like his shoe, if I were.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it wasn't even like he got a good tackle, he just grabbed his foot and held on for dear life.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: And he tackled and he doesn't get the one yard, and the and the Colts have to punt the ball back.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: It it it is one of the most underrated great plays.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: I I if I had to list the top ten plays in Steelers history, I think I'd put that on there.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because it was so significant.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: The season was over if he doesn't make that play.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: And the fact and and the the athlet athleticism that it took to make that play is just unbelievable.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: So now the Steelers have the ball back, they're in the same spot again.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_01: The offense is in the same spot with a chance to put together a drive to send them to the Super Bowl.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: O'Donnell starts leading him downfield, but he throws an errand pass right into the arms of Quentin Corriette.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_02: He threw it him right between the five and the five.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_02: He hit him perfectly.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_02: He hit him perfectly.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: And Ernie Mills, who's coming across the field, who I think the pass was intended for, um makes a great play to stick his arm in there and break up the interception because that was again the game was over.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um the drive eerily comes down to a fourth and three around midfield.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: So once again, we need three more yards this time in the middle of the year.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_02: And TV kept showing like the sign.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: No, it was it was gut-ranking.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_02: And Phil Sims was in the tank for for the Colts.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so they convert it, though.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_01: They converted this time with a pass to Hastings, and then the big play uh on this drive, O'Donnell airs airs out a pass down the right sideline to Ernie Mills, who hauls it in at the one-yard line, and then two plays later, Bam Morris punches it in.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: And with a minute and a half left, the Steelers take the lead, 20 to 16.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_01: And if you watch the broadcast on NBC, there's a bunch of just dramatic shots after Bam punches it in.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like the stands used to roll out, and like I remember the stands bouncing and the Cowers celebrating and you're right.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: The cow cowers family's up there hugging and crying.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh John Jackson, who is the the offensive tackle for the Steelers, just a huge 300 something town guy, um, was pointing at the ref, waiting for him to signal touchdown.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: And when the ref put his arms up in the air, John Jackson leapt about 20 feet into the air.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and then the other shot, you you and I were talking about this before the broadcast, Steve, that you know, Neil O'Donnell walks off the field and he blows a kiss to the sign, yeah.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: To the to the to the um to the stands.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think he kind of knew that was his last play in Three River Stadium.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um but there's still a minute and a half left.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: The game's not over.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the Colts get the ball back, and Captain Comeback still has time for another comeback.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: He he marches them down the field.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: The game comes down to a Hail Mary attempt in the corner of the end zone.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and Hail Mary's in football.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't know what the statistics are, but what maybe like a two percent success rate of the Aaron.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's not well they were at the 30 or the 29, so it wasn't like But he still it made the end zone.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_02: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_01: He still yeah.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes Randy Fuller knocked it out, who ironically was wearing number 29.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_02: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: Randy Fuller batted it, and and the receiver was a guy named Aaron Bailey who it kind of went through his arms.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_02: Oh well, then he tried to fake it, like, oh I caught it, and then Phil Sims, who was, you know, was too busy putting on his Colts jersey, started saying, He caught it, he caught it.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_02: And then all of a sudden the ref signaled it wasn't, and Phil decided to cry because he was really upset because the Colts didn't win.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell Yeah, I'll never forget that's ingrained into my brain, Phil Sims screaming, because I that's all I heard.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't I didn't see the referee signaling complete.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: I just heard Phil Sims.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_02: Well the referee was dramatic, too.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_02: He goes, like if you watch the replay like he really wasn't he that was a no-doubter.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_02: Thank God there was no instant replay back then.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_02: Well, well they would have just reviewed the heck out of that until they would have given the Colts the game.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_02: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well well, I mean it it was a great call by the ref.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_01: I uh you you said you said thank god there's no instant replay, but imagine if because if you watch it in full speed, it kind of looks like Bailey rolls over and catches it.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_02: It hit the ground.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_02: But but but once again it's in low def, too.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like kudos to the ref for seeing that.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like he was right there.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_01: He saw that.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's such a difference between the games in low def and high def.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: So so yeah, the Steelers win.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_01: The Steelers overcome the three more yards thing.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: This time they win the championship game.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: Now they're headed to the Super Bowl.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_01: It it's it really that championship game has to be one of the great one of the greatest games in in Steelers history, wouldn't you say?
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, it's one of my favorites.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_02: I I still like the game against Cleveland before, the year before, just because it was Cleveland and it's always fun to beat Cleveland and Belichick in particular.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_02: But this was a big game.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_02: It put us in the Super Bowl more significant than the other one.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_02: And and d dramatic, too.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_02: Dramatic, yeah.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_02: Ernie Mills big catch.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the then we're still on the one and Bam Morris all 350 pounds of them leaps ten feet over the line to score.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was it was a great game.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's one of the great games.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_02: Indeed.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: Indeed.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_01: Another another fun fact, uh that was uh in the history of the AFC championship game, there's only been two AFC championship games that featured two teams that did not play in the old AFL, and that was one of them.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, and old NFL teams.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_01: And the other the other game was the 2008 championship game where the Steelers played the Ravens.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because neither of those teams had been playing.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: So now the Steelers advanced to Super Bowl 30 in Tempe, Arizona.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_01: The opponent is the Dallas Cowboys.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_01: And there is just absolute huge hype for this game, right?
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_01: So Dallas has a dynasty right now.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_01: They they've already won two Super Bowls, they're going for their third.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's a rematch of the 1970s Super Bowls where the Steelers and Cowboys had played two dramatic games against each other in the 70s to determine really who the team of that decade was.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_01: And whoever won this game, both of those franchises at the time had four Super Bowls, they were going to tie San Francisco for most Super Bowl wins with five.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_01: So you you have two of the NFL's flagship franchises, two of the NFL's flagship fan bases.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's just enormous hype.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, it becomes the second most watched television program of all time, trailing only the the final episode of MASH.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I'm pretty sure that's been broken since then.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_01: At the time it's the second most watched television program ever.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's how much hype was was um into this game.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_02: Was that before?
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that would have been before I can before after the OJ thing, because that that's like highest rated to the white Bronco.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_01: I I I think that had happened the summer before.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it even It even beat the OJ even beat OJ running away from the police.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, nice.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um the coach of the Cowboys at this time is Barry Switzer.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um Gary Jones had probably the biggest mistake he ever made was forcing out Jimmy Johnson because of his massive ego.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_01: And and Barry Switzer had taken over, and Barry Switzer had led the Cowboys back to the Super Bowl because he had just a stacked roster.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um but they were definitely like kinks in the armor.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you could see the Cowboys were were starting to um collapse is a wrong word, but definitely starting to fading.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, fade.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_01: But but here they are, they're back in the Super Bowl.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh also back is Rod Woodson.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um amazingly, you know, had torn his ACL.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_01: The Steelers had left open a roster spot, Coward left open a roster spot for him, and he comes back for this game.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_01: He he was came back in a very limited capacity, but he was back.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_01: That was a huge boost uh for the team.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um both teams had dynamic offenses with like X Factor players.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_01: The Steelers had Cordell and Dallas, Deion Sanders, who was you know, who we mentioned was their you know, was their great cornerback, was also playing offense um on select packages for the Cowboys.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so um the game starts after all this hype, the game finally starts.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_01: And in the first half, it's pretty clear that the Cowboys are our team that is playing in their third Super Bowl, and the Steelers are a team that's never been this far before.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um the Dallas just comes out firing Troy Inkman, the Hall of Fame quarterback for the Cowboys, leads Dallas on three first half scoring drives.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um the defense is focused heavily on stopping Emmett Smith because uh that's really the the Cowboys probably their best player.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um they have this great offensive line, they have Emmett Smith.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_01: And the defense, you know, although the the Cowboys marked down the field three times, the defense holds them to field goals on two of those drives.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so it's it's 13-0 late in the second quarter, but it could have been much worse.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_01: Much worse.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the offense, meanwhile, is doing nothing and making mistakes.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_01: Dramani Dawson, who is the Steelers Hall of Fame center, um, the only time that the Steelers even get in Cowboys territory, Dawson snaps the ball way over O'Donnell's head, and that ends that drive.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but again, it's only 13-0, and then finally, right before halftime, the the offense finally mounts a drive, and O'Donnell hits the NC thick pen in the end zone with 13 seconds left.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_01: So despite being just thoroughly outplayed in the first half, the Steelers only trail by six points at halftime, which is amazing.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I don't know, Steve.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_01: I that's what I remember about that first half, is just the Cowboys just rolled over us, but somehow it's only 13-7.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they hung in there with um with them the defense did.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, unfortunately, like I think the experience factor that seems to be the common logic of that first half is that the uh Cowboys had just been there and kind of knew how to handle it a little better.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_02: Because there definitely is like a learning curve to getting into that big game situation.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_02: And you see it almost every year, especially when you have two teams like are both new to the Super Bowl.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_02: Normally you end up with a little bit of a choppy first quarter.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good point.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_01: So so now you you have the long halftime that you traditionally have in the Super Bowl.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_02: It was uh Diana Ross or Diana Ross.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_02: Diana Ross, all right.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_01: Good memory.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_01: I I wouldn't have remembered that.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_01: I only I only knew that because I I was researching this game.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so in the third quarter, the the Steelers offense settles down and now they start putting together a drive.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_01: And you're thinking, okay, this is where we we take the lead or cut the lead, you know, uh even more than six or even less than six.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_01: And O'Donnell throws an interception to a Dallas cornerback named Larry Brown, who returns at 44 yards, leads to a touchdown, and now Dallas is up 20 to 7.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_01: That interception, which is is the first of two, uh is is it's bad.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know any other way to put it.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_01: If you if you watch the replay, um uh the Cowboys blitz, O'Donnell seemingly panics, and he and he throws the ball uh to to the to the right side of the field, and there's nobody, there's no steeler players within 20 yards.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_01: This the two the two receivers on that side had had already cut uh over to the other side of the field.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_01: There's nobody even close.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't really know what Larry Brown was even doing over there because he's covering nobody.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_01: If you the if you watch that.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_02: The 40-yard line might have scored.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you look like at the big overhead angle, he's he's standing out there on an island.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_01: And and there were people after this game that said, oh, Neil threw the Super Bowl on purpose and Jerry Jones paid him a bunch of money.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't believe any of that.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_01: But when you watch that replay, I think that's what gives fuel to that fire.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because literally Brown's stand Brown's inexplicably covering grass, and O'Donnell throws to a spot where there's nobody even close.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just uh it's a terrible play, terrible interception.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_01: Cowboys are now up 20 to 7.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_01: The Steelers get the ball back and uh try to try to sort of overcome that, but Ben Morris is stuffed on a fourth and one attempt.
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_01: They turn the ball over on downs, and now it looks like okay, that was that was really our chance to come back.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_01: Now this is going to turn into the typical NFC team, blows out the AFC team.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um but it doesn't because the defense continues to really hold strong.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_01: The defense continues to shut down Emmett Smith in that running game.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Rod Woodson uh breaks up a big third down pass to Deion Sanders, and there's There's a great picture of him pointing with two fingers at the end.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and so the fourth quarter starts, it's still twenty to seven.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_01: The Steelers mount a drive to get a field goal, so now it's twenty to ten in the fourth quarter.
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_01: And at this point, Coward just says, you know what, I'm just going to push all my chips to the middle of the table.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_01: And he calls for a surprise onside kick.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_02: Bobby April called for it.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody everybody gets on.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_02: Bobby April did suggest it, but it was obviously Coward's final decision.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously Coward, yeah, Coward's decision.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and so they do a surprise onside kick.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um the Cowboys are not ready for it at all.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then the Ghost of Dion figures, who, you know, again, he didn't play that whole season, but he's playing special teams in that game.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_01: He recovers the onside kick.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh O'Donnell has now um steadied himself, starts uh leading this team down the field, and they get to the one-yard line and they they execute a great block, and Dan Morris literally walks untouched into the end zone.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_01: And now all of a sudden it's 20 to 17, and Dallas is getting nervous.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they have to they have to kick the ball back to the Cowboys.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_01: On the ensuing possession, Levon Kirkland, who honestly I think would have been the MVP had the Steelers won this game.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_01: He was just dominant in this game, uh, literally knocks Ainkman backwards for a huge sack, and Dallas has to punt.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's a it's a it's a play where he hits Inkman, and Ainkman literally like stumbles backwards and falls down.
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh and so now the Steelers get the ball back at their own 32 yard line.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's about four minutes left in the game.
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_01: They're only down by three points, they have all the momentum, and now it's now it's it's Neil's moment, right?
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's his chance to go down and win the Super Bowl.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_01: And he throws another interception to Brown, and it's almost a mirror image of the first interception.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's on that same side of the field, there's not really a steal or receiver near him.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and Brown returns the the interception deep into the Cowboys territory.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_01: They quickly score a touchdown right after that, and now there's not enough time, the game is over, and the Cowboys win 27 to 17.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that second interception, you know, there's a little more debate about that one.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um Andre Hastings, it was it was it was another blitz where O'Donnell kind of unloaded the ball on a blitz.
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Andre Hastings, the receiver, um, was supposed to um O'Donnell said he was supposed to cut outside on a blitz like that.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_01: Hastings said I was supposed to cut inside.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_01: So O'Donnell threw to a spot where he thought Hastings would be.
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_01: Hastings was on the other side.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh whatever the reason, um it's Larry Brown picks off the ball again by covering grass, and I think that's all anybody remembers.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and it's a painful loss.
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was painful because everybody hated Dallas back then, not just in Pittsburgh.
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think that Dallas was widely hated by a lot of people with that team, with Michael Irvin and Deion Sanders and those guys.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_01: So seeing them win a third Super Bowl just was was hard.
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_01: But then seeing the Steelers lose in a game where they had in the second half, the Steelers outgained the Cowboys in yards 201 to 61.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh outgained them in first downs 25 to 15.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_01: And the Dallas running game, 56 yards.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's all they got in the second half.
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_02: That's your Hall of Famer there.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_01: I I mean, yeah, and and so with that with those numbers, uh the Steelers should have should have won that game, but they didn't um because of the interceptions.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_01: And and it's so ironic, because we talked about earlier, right, that O'Donnell's game was he was safe.
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_01: He would take a sack, and that was frustrating.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_01: All those years you watched O'Donnell take a 10-yard sack in instead of trying to throw the ball away or trying to throw the ball into coverage, but that was his game.
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_01: Play it safe.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_01: And in going into Super Bowl 30, he was the NFL's all-time leader and fewest interceptions per pass attempt.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_01: And he throws two interceptions to Larry Brown, who who's named the game's MVP for covering grass.
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think I think it illustrates to the more of an overarching like you know, theme is it's the difference between like great quarterbacks and good quarterbacks.
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_02: O'Donnell's a good quarterback, like Mark Rippin's a good quarterback, Jeff Hostettler, good quarterback.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_02: Tom Brady, you know, Ben Rothelsberger, Terry Bradshaw, John L.
• 1:10:37
  SPEAKER_02: You're you're talking great quarterbacks.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_02: If that's you know one of those guys, John L.
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_02: steps out of the way, Ben Rothelsberger scrambles around.
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, Merino uses his quick release to defeat that blitz.
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_02: But and it's it's it's a, you know, to quote Bill Cower, it's a fine line between winning and losing, and I think that's what we kind of bumped into there was, you know, that just got the a little too big.
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_02: And you even saw it, you know, the with the Super Bowl with uh San Francisco and um just this year.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_02: Kansas City.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and you know, Garoppolo had a guy wide open late, you know, and that's the difference between a guy that's good and a guy that's great.
• 1:11:17
  SPEAKER_02: Tom Brady hits that pass.
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_02: Peyton Manning probably hits that.
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, it's just it's just the difference.
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_02: It is it's hard to criticize, you know, they Godon was still a good quarterback, but it's you just you know you needed to make just one if he makes not one of those interceptions, it's maybe a different game.
• 1:11:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:11:37
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's a really good point.
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, greatness, you you really want to talk about great, especially in the Super Bowl, greatness.
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_01: So those guys you mentioned, Montana, uh uh Brady, Ben, even Eli Manning, you know, w when they had the ball down by a certain amount of points late in the game, all those guys led game-winning drives to win the Super Bowl.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you mentioned that the last year's Super Bowl, Mahomes had a terrible game.
• 1:12:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:12:01
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_01: With ten minutes left in the fourth quarter, he leads the team down and wins the game because that's greatness.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_01: And O'Donnell never had greatness.
• 1:12:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's unfortunate, I mean, but um yeah, that that happens.
• 1:12:15
  SPEAKER_02: And another great was uh Brown was on Married with Children, an episode of Married with Children, and they made the joke, yeah, you got got MVP for covering grass.
• 1:12:24
  SPEAKER_02: They actually made that joke on Married with Children, isn't it?
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I don't know what Larry Brown was doing in uh Al Bundy's shoe store, but he was there.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_02: So he he the He made he made a lot of money off of covering grass.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_01: He did.
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_01: He got to sign a big phrase and deal with the Raiders and was never really that good, um, which wasn't surprising.
• 1:12:45
  SPEAKER_01: He he you know had one of their other defensive backs picked off that second pass, Brock Marion or whoever their other defensive backs were.
• 1:12:53
  SPEAKER_01: If that had been a different guy, uh that game has no MVP.
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like there was nobody else to see.
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_02: They probably just picked Emmett Smith or Trey Aikman or somebody.
• 1:13:04
  SPEAKER_01: They would have had to pick somebody, obviously, but there really wasn't an MVP.
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, again, the Steelers really had dominated that whole second half.
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_01: So just hurt.
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, one of the enduring images from that game, NFL Films had mic'd up Cower, and there's a there's a famous clip of him walking off the field, and his daughter Megan comes up to greet him, and and he's trying to hold it together.
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, you and I both have daughters.
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you want to hold it together, like you're really upset, but you want to be strong for your kids.
• 1:13:31
  SPEAKER_01: And uh Cower's just trying so hard to hold it together, and he just goes, Oh, you win some, you lose some, but he's like trying to like he's choking back tears.
• 1:13:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, did you ever see like, and then there's like one of the NFL handlers there?
• 1:13:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's like some young guy in a suit, and he's like trying to do the like, I'm just here to keep people away, but this is a very uncomfortable moment.
• 1:13:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, you've had to like, oh, why am I here for the somebody kill me?
• 1:13:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, probably not where that guy wanted to be at the time.
• 1:13:59
  SPEAKER_01: So the aftermath, O'Donnell, after the season, leaves for the Jets in free agency, holds a press conference proclaiming that, quote, you play your whole career for a shot at free agency, kind of showing you where Neil's priorities were.
• 1:14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then he proceeds to go 1-15 with the Jets in 1996, uh, and never even comes close to matching the success he had in Pittsburgh.
• 1:14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a three-way battle for the starting quarterback job the following season.
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's initially won by Jim Miller, uh, but then the job's handed to Tom Zack after Miller kind of plays poorly in the first game.
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_01: And Tom Zack's okay, but he he, as the season wears on, you know, it it's clear that he was a good backup quarterback, not a good starting quarterback.
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_01: He becomes a turnover machine.
• 1:14:42
  SPEAKER_01: The Steelers make the playoffs, but they're blown out in the divisional round in New England.
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um Gailey's promoted to offensive coordinator, but the offense is beset by injuries to Thigpen and Mills.
• 1:14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Mills actually got hurt in the fourth quarter of the first time.
• 1:14:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_01: And never really recovers.
• 1:14:59
  SPEAKER_02: Next year he left for free agency.
• 1:15:00
  SPEAKER_02: He had a great career with Carolina, actually.
• 1:15:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Bam Morris uh gets arrested in that in uh a few months after that Super Bowl, he has like lots and lots of cocaine in his car.
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and gets released.
• 1:15:15
  SPEAKER_01: He never comes close to reproducing his success.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_01: And um and so and so really Cower kind of just goes back to that Marty Ball formula after that season.
• 1:15:25
  SPEAKER_01: They don't they don't they don't have the same dynamic offense anymore.
• 1:15:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and it it Cower has a lot of success, but he also loses three more AFC championship games at home uh before uh with Ben Rothesberger finally making it back to and winning the Super Bowl a full decade later in 2005.
• 1:15:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it really really makes you appreciate.
• 1:15:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think though the losses sometimes make you appreciate I mean I still Super Bowl 40, that's like just one of my favorite.
• 1:15:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's one of my top, top, my favorite Steeler game of all time.
• 1:15:57
  SPEAKER_02: I know, you know, it's not the greatest Super Bowl ever played, but I mean you had to wait.
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I didn't really, you know, start watching Steelers was ninety-two.
• 1:16:07
  SPEAKER_02: I had to wait till two thousand four to see, you know.
• 1:16:09
  SPEAKER_02: And you look at some of these other fan bases every other year they're in the championship game or winning, we didn't get a sniff, and we had some teams that were pretty good too.
• 1:16:19
  SPEAKER_02: And it just just once again it goes back to kind of that do you have that good quarterback or do you have a great quarterback?
• 1:16:25
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:16:25
  SPEAKER_02: And once again, Cordell and was kind of like one of those where a good he's good, but he's not great.
• 1:16:33
  SPEAKER_02: And that was until they got somebody that was great and was definitely top tier, that's when they finally started to win championships.
• 1:16:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:16:41
  SPEAKER_02: You you just can't win like in the old NFL, you used to be able to win, like I said, with a Jeff Hawstetler, Mark Ripon, even Tampa Bay, who'd they have Brad Johnson that one year, like good quarterbacks, but now with the way the rules are in the league, if you don't have a great quarterback, you're not you're not gonna win the Super Bowl.
• 1:16:59
  SPEAKER_01: That that great defense game manager quarterback thing, it it can still work.
• 1:17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um but the problem is if the defense collapses at any point, like this like the defense did against San Diego in the championship game, or or whatever.
• 1:17:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like you know, San Francisco, we were talking about last year's Super Bowl.
• 1:17:18
  SPEAKER_01: San Francisco had that formula last year, but then they they collapsed in the fourth quarter, their defense collapsed uh against Kansas City, and then you don't necessarily even need a running game, like like you can win with a great quarterback and a good defense.
• 1:17:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:17:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean Denver did that two years in a row, so Yeah, I think I think NFL history is just littered with teams like those Coward Era Steelers teams where they had really good teams, but they didn't have the great quarterback that could really win it when they needed him to, and that's what they needed from Neil O'Donnell in that game, and that's what they didn't get.
• 1:17:51
  SPEAKER_02: So we're just throwing Neil under the bus.
• 1:17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh like you said, it wasn't like Neil was a bad quarterback.
• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_01: He was a good quarterback.
• 1:17:58
  SPEAKER_01: It just that's his legacy in Pittsburgh.
• 1:18:00
  SPEAKER_01: He lost the Super Bowl, he threw two interceptions in the second half of the Super Bowl.
• 1:18:03
  SPEAKER_02: And and he never got another sniff like you said.
• 1:18:05
  SPEAKER_02: He really I mean, I don't even think he even made it to another Super Bowl, did he?
• 1:18:09
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, no, he didn't.
• 1:18:10
  SPEAKER_02: He didn't do anything.
• 1:18:11
  SPEAKER_02: He played for Tennessee for a while in Cincinnati.
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he backed up Steve McNair.
• 1:18:15
  SPEAKER_01: He played for Cincinnati, he played for the Jets.
• 1:18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he never did anything after that.
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that was his choice.
• 1:18:19
  SPEAKER_01: He wanted to leave and sign a big contract.
• 1:18:21
  SPEAKER_01: And he stayed in Pittsburgh, maybe things turn out different, maybe they don't.
• 1:18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
• 1:18:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um it kind of goes back to what we're saying with all the people leaving Pittsburgh, you know.
• 1:18:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then another disappointing loss after 94 and after Sid Bream, and now the pirates are stinking and Barry Bond stinks.
• 1:18:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean we I guess we still kind of had the Penguins.
• 1:18:41
  SPEAKER_02: They were Mario was still there, I think.
• 1:18:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:18:45
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a lot of it was a lot of tough losses, right, in succession.
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then Yauger did leave, you know, a couple of years later, so Yeah.
• 1:18:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well well, there there were there were just a bunch.
• 1:18:54
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned the Sid Bream, you had the uh David Vollock game against the Islanders.
• 1:18:58
  SPEAKER_01: That was in 93.
• 1:18:59
  SPEAKER_01: 94 you had the Chargers, and then 95 you had the Super Bowl.
• 1:19:02
  SPEAKER_02: So there were a lot of heartbreaking losses.
• 1:19:04
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of devastating losses in succession.
• 1:19:06
  SPEAKER_01: And and it was weird because we talked about in that previous podcast how the 80s were just this miserable decade of Pittsburgh sports.
• 1:19:12
  SPEAKER_01: We were never contending for anything.
• 1:19:14
  SPEAKER_01: So you didn't have any of those moments because you didn't have any good teams.
• 1:19:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:19:17
  SPEAKER_01: You get into the nineties, everybody's good.
• 1:19:19
  SPEAKER_01: All three teams all of a sudden are good, uh, but then you have, you know, these heartbreaking moments.
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_01: So the 95 Steelers season, I mean, it it's strange because I remember it it was a great season, and they did overcome the three more yards thing.
• 1:19:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they they they redeemed that championship game loss, but then they so so they so that's great.
• 1:19:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but then they lose in the Super Bowl.
• 1:19:43
  SPEAKER_02: To like our one of our bigger rival teams, too, like the Cowboys.
• 1:19:47
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:19:47
  SPEAKER_01: So kind of a mixed bag.
• 1:19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um memorable season, good season, but definitely bittersweet, bittersweet.
• 1:19:54
  SPEAKER_02: Good good way to put it.
• 1:19:55
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:19:57
  SPEAKER_01: Any final thoughts, Steve?
• 1:19:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh bittersweet season um made me appreciate, like I said, the sometimes when you have to wait for something and it takes a couple more years than you thought you would.
• 1:20:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think I was spoiled by the Penguin Stanley Cups like early, you know.
• 1:20:12
  SPEAKER_02: I thought, oh, we're just gonna do this every year.
• 1:20:15
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 1:20:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then all of a sudden you're like, you know what, it ain't that easy to win a championship.
• 1:20:19
  SPEAKER_02: It makes you, as you get older, you appreciate things a little more.
• 1:20:22
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, you appreciate the players and how hard they work and just uh three more yards.
• 1:20:28
  SPEAKER_02: We just needed three more or one less interception, I guess, and then that Super Bowl.
• 1:20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that would have helped greatly.
• 1:20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks everybody for listening.
• 1:20:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, if you like the podcast, please leave us a review and we'll catch you next time.