Latest / Divorce Coaches Academy / Catch The Wave
Transcript
- Tracy Callahan: Thank you for listening to the Divorce Coaches Academy podcast. For more insights and training, visit divorcecoachesacademy.com. Welcome back to Divorce Coaches Academy podcast. I'm Tracy. And I want to get us started today with a pretty obvious observation. If you really look at how conflict unfolds in divorce, it doesn't follow a clean linear path. It comes in waves. It spikes. shows up at the worst possible moments. And yet, ⁓ most of the support people receive is structured around Welcome to Divorce Coaches Academy podcast, where we explore the role of divorce coaching in conflict resolution, decision making, and navigating divorce with clarity and intention. scheduled times, right? Sessions, meetings, preparation. So there's a disconnect between where conflict actually happens and where support exists. prepare people for mediation. We guide them through legal processes. We coach them in contained, structured environments. But moments that shape outcomes, those texts at nine at night, the reactions, the decisions that escalate or de-escalate conflict. Yeah, those don't happen in those rooms. happen in between. And that gap is where a lot of people struggle. So today, I'm joined by someone who has a really unique vantage point across this entire system. Tamara Arnold is a licensed family attorney, certified mediator, conflict consultant, author of Divorce Day One and the creator and host of the Divorce Wave app. She's also proudly a DCA certified ADR divorce coach and the founder of Truce Resolutions. We are so happy to have you here and joining us for this conversation. Tamara Arnold: Thank you, Tracy. It kind of feels like a full circle moment coming back. Tracy Callahan: we're always happy to have people that train with us who are doing amazing things and share that information with our community. ⁓ So are honored to have you here. ⁓ Let's start right? ⁓ You divorce as something that comes in waves, right? Rather than this linear process. Hence, we're gonna talk a lot about her app, Wave. ⁓ But does that actually look like in practice for people Tamara Arnold: Thank you. Tracy Callahan: You work with. We work with. Tamara Arnold: Right, we've all been there. It's the triggers that really get us. And those come in moments that we're not prepared. They come when we're at work. They come when we're picking up the kids. They come when we're preparing dinner. It's those moments where we see those patterns over and over and over again. And just because we're getting divorced doesn't mean those patterns stop with our ex. So it's those moments that come. And I like to talk about emotions as being ways because they have a similar pattern. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Tamara Arnold: they rise, they peak, and then they fall and go away. And if you think about the people that are in the mindfulness arena, know that it's those moments, it's watching those waves, it's observing those waves and letting the emotions happen, that's where the work is. It's when we suppress the emotions that we get into a lot of trouble. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, I think it's so true. know, when we talk about these waves, also, you know, I visualize this, right? Okay, we're out on like this little boat and we're in the middle of the ocean and we have these waves and they're coming and going. I also think that there are so many other factors when I think about that, that visualization of our clients in between these sessions are also directly impacted by the weather in those situations, right? So even when we're trying ensure the best and we're supporting clients and developing these skills, ⁓ A lot of what we do in session is skill development, strategy, to be able to ⁓ these. There could be weather fronts that just make those ⁓ and strategies even harder to implement, you know? I think of my own self, like ⁓ I'm in conflict and I've had a couple glasses of wine. I just happen to be out and then all of a sudden something happens. I'm not really, really good at sort of managing some of that. So I think it's really, I think it's significant and especially being aware of it and mindful of it. So where do you see sort of this biggest disconnect between the support people receive and moments they actually need it? Tamara Arnold: Right. I think the disconnect is when we are in session, either in a therapy session or a coaching session, we are relaxed. We are our best selves. We can talk about it and analyze things in a way that, yeah, I did that. I wasn't my best self. when those triggers come in and we're swept away by them, we're not our best selves. And so it's hard to predict how those reactions are going to happen because they're so fast. Tracy Callahan: No. Yeah. Tamara Arnold: The reactions come so quickly and they feel very difficult to control, especially when the stakes are as high as they are when you're going through something as stressful as divorce on top of your already stressful life. So divorce doesn't happen in a vacuum. It gets put on top of all the stress that you already have and it adds a very significant layer. And so the emotions, they're much more raw. They're much more at the surface. And we're not talking about just angry here. Also the grief and the sadness and the heartbreak, those are right near the surface because we're in such a heightened state of stress because of the divorce. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, overwhelm that certainly impacts also our behavior, right? That thinking and feeling that really again contributes to that conflict either in escalation or efforts for de-escalation. So we're about like, right? When the clients with us, they're in this sort of supportive environment, right? We're encouraging them showing up as their best self. It's safe. There's safety in that process. ⁓ Tamara Arnold: Right. Tracy Callahan: Right? when they're outside of that, they don't have that buffer. Right? ⁓ what ⁓ to ⁓ you these processes between sessions? We talked about ⁓ the variables. not this linear thing. What do you see as some of the most common decisions, right? People make any triggered state that ends up Tamara Arnold: Right. Tracy Callahan: escalating conflict rather than de-escalating conflict. Tamara Arnold: Right. Well, people in divorce, we have all of these methods for, okay, I'm going to behave this way. I'm going to be my best self. I'm going to have control. I'm going to maintain my boundaries. All of these things, right? I have the perfect response, the perfect one-liner. I know exactly what to do. And then the trigger comes and your brain is hijacked. We know from the science that the amygdala fires and we are no longer rational. And when we're no longer rational, just like you said, when you've had a couple of drinks wine, Tracy Callahan: Certain. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Tamara Arnold: As soon as we're not in that rational anymore, well, anything can happen. ⁓ of our thought, all of our careful planning, it all goes out the window. And so we get reactive. We respond anger. We say things we don't mean. We throw those F-bombs. We do everything that we're not supposed to do and that we know logically we're not supposed to do. And then we're left with the fallout and we have to start over. So if you have an ex-spouse, you're... Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Tamara Arnold: you know, the marriage might be over, but you still need to try to build some goodwill so you can get to the end of the divorce, so you can co-parent. There still needs to be agreements and compromise, and all of that goes out the window when you're no longer rational, and now it's just righteousness and indignation. And so that's when all of the, is no decision-making, it's just reaction, and that's when it goes off the rails. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and when you're in a supportive place, right, being able to have those sort of reminders or engaging in some of those tools and strategies to, to move away from that or, or take a kind of pause to slow down that nervous system reaction, that amygdala that's creating this fight or flight threat, whether it's perceived or real. they can't get there sometimes, right? Because it's just the pull, the force is too much over there. And I think you identified something really important, right? It's hard then to recover some of that. You can be taking these small, very proactive steps in the work that you're doing and then have this one situation that can set you back five steps that you just try to build over. So this... The stress and overwhelm these ⁓ that are flooding these processes are what make it difficult to access what already know in the moments, ⁓ right? From perspective, how does this ⁓ sort dysregulation interfere with decision-making ⁓ and right? Because Tamara Arnold: Right. Tracy Callahan: We just talked about not being able to be in their frontal cortex, not being able to be responsive and looking at this from a more fact-based, if you will, process and in that threat, which also then is like a domino effect to communication ⁓ conflict. Tamara Arnold: So I think the important thing is to try to create the space that you need because when those triggers happen, it's so immediate and it feels so urgent. It feels like you have to respond right away. In actuality, unless the house is on fire, unless there's a true emergency, unless, for lack of a better word, it's really hitting the fan, it's not urgent. You have the time that you need. And it's important in those moments to try to develop the practice. of noticing when you're triggered, that's the hardest part, noticing when it's happening, noticing when you're being carried away. And then giving yourself that space to allow the emotion to work through you, to allow that wave to peak and fall and knowing when it has happened and you're finally rational again. And then some kind of tool to reset yourself. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Tamara Arnold: So whether that's walking or movement or, you know, screaming into a pillow, whatever it is that needs to happen to reset yourself and then not responding until that happens. So if you can create those moments of space and practice that, practice noticing, practice creating those pauses and then resetting and finally responding, then you'll find that your responses are going to be much more controlled, much more strategic and they won't Tracy Callahan: you Tamara Arnold: escalate this conflict cycle. And it's hard, it's really difficult to do in the moment. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. I, I listen, I think it is extremely hard in, in general, right? And that's what we're talking about. Cause there are, it's unrealistic. We are all human. Right. Even the Basilead plan, right? I'm gonna, you worked with your coach and had these strategies and then they fall down a little. And, and I think that's okay. Right. I think the, what we're kind of talking about today is then How can that plan extend beyond those sessions that are accessible, if you will, for the client on a more readily basis when they're starting to recognize that, right? That awareness, okay, I see it. I see it happening. Now, what is my plan to be able to support that if for some reason my strategy falling down? So ⁓ worked as an attorney, mediator. Right now, conflict-informed divorce codes, you've got all the things. do you see the limits of of those roles when it comes to supporting somebody in real time or clients? Tamara Arnold: Yeah, so unless you've got your attorney's cell phone number on speed dial, said no one. Tracy Callahan: Said no one. I only had one client who actually did. Tamara Arnold: you're not getting your attorney on the phone when the conflict arises. You're definitely not. ⁓ ⁓ not the attorney's job. The attorney's job is not to manage necessarily the emotions of the divorce. The attorney's job is to advocate for you and argue the law on your behalf ⁓ get your paperwork filed and do all of those things. It's not the attorney's job to control the conflict between the two parties. ⁓ kind of up to the parties. Now, the therapist might have a little help. We've all been in therapy, but again, therapy is a safe spot. You're in there for an hour. Anybody who's been to couples counseling knows that the two people that are in the room are not the two people that are home throwing things at each other. It's a very different situation. ⁓ Tracy Callahan: Very true, everybody is usually on their somewhat contained best behavior in the office, right? Tamara Arnold: Right, and the same with the mediator. a mediator, I get CC'd on emails all the time that I don't need to be CC'd on. ⁓ Tracy Callahan: all the time. I just, I mean, because we're neutral, right? I do not respond to any of them. So which may be even more, and of course I laid the ground rules with the clients going into the mediation process, but they don't seem to, right? They're all trying to angle and prove a point. So again, not the role of a mediator to be direct. Tamara Arnold: I don't respond. Yeah. Right. Right. And as a mediator, I'm not necessarily responding. I'm just sort of noting what's happening. Like, whoa, looks like we don't have an agreement here. ⁓ Big emotions. Right? Because as a meteor, I can't say this person, this party really needs to stuck it up and this party needs to put on their big girl pants. You know, I can't do that. So there are limitations to Tracy Callahan: No. Yeah. Yeah. Very, very true. Very true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tamara Arnold: the roles of the mediator, the coach, even the therapist and the attorney, all of them have mediations because we're not there with you in the heat of the moment. And unless, I mean, some coaches offer concierge service, I do as an add on. ⁓ I offer some crisis calls if people really need to get me on the phone so I can talk them off the ledge. But for the most part, I try to do that through asynchronous. Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tamara Arnold: voice messages. I try to some in the ear of my clients to say, okay, you called me first. You left me a voice message first instead of leaving an F-bomb laced voice message for your spouse. Great. You noticed you need help. That's the first step. Fantastic. Tracy Callahan: I love that, right? So you've clearly spent a lot of time thinking how to support people inside those exact moments, right? What did you realize people actually need access to? Like as we're looking at this and thinking, right? Because there was some inspiration behind work you've been doing. Tamara Arnold: Right? Yeah, so I realized that people actually need access to the tools understand the patterns, not just their excess patterns, but their own patterns, how they contribute to their own ⁓ because we're not necessarily aware of it in the marriage. And then during the divorce, it's just escalated. And now we're feeling a little bit more like the victim, like we need to defend ourselves. And when we're in those defensive patterns, things can get worse. So I realized that people needed the tools to understand and figure out what their patterns are. They needed something to be that space between the stimulus and the response. They needed a pause. They needed somewhere to go to turn to. And it doesn't have to be an app, although I think an app is a great way to do that, and we can talk about that later. But they need to know what gets them back rational, how long it takes for them to be back in their rational mind. and they need the permission to not respond right away. And that's where coaches can really help move the needle. Yes, it has to be done in session, but we can practice those things. We can talk about the patterns that are repeating over and over again. ⁓ can come up with strategies. Okay, what is your strategy to give yourself that pause? ⁓ you gonna go for a walk? Are you gonna leave the room? What are you gonna do? ⁓ And so if we talk about those and give them sort of a step-by-step system, then all of the sudden they can acknowledge those patterns a lot easier. They can see it, they can take the breaks that they need, and then they can come back to the rational and respond. And as soon as you do this a couple of times, you start to get it. It only takes a few pattern disruptions for it to really start working. And my favorite thing, my favorite thing is when I know it starts to work. Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Tamara Arnold: it almost becomes comical. When you see the pattern and now you know that you have the tools to address it, now all of a sudden you can recognize it in your spouse and it's almost like, ⁓ here it is again. I know what to do with that. ⁓ he just called me a bitch again. I know what to do with that. Let me put that on ice for 20 minutes. I'm gonna go listen to my earbuds for five minutes and I'm gonna come back and I'm gonna rock this response. And I'm gonna do it every time. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tamara Arnold: because now you know how to, I don't wanna say win, but kind of, you win by not engaging. It's strategic. Tracy Callahan: Well, it's strategic, right? It's interrupting those repetitive patterns, right? We talk about this all the time. Conflict in itself is not dysfunctional. What's dysfunctional is the repetitive, unwanted repetitive pattern that gets us nowhere close to what that desired outcome is. So that interruption, right, is the piece that we're talking about. That ability to have sort of that distress tolerance, begins with awareness that creates opportunities to have a plan in place that then supports that interruption, if you will, it turns into this legal or co-parenting issue. Because it doesn't need to Tamara Arnold: Right, and if you can recognize the pattern and kind of pull back a little bit and take a look at it and say, ⁓ I know exactly what this is, I've seen this before, I know how to respond, that is what breaks the cycle. Tracy Callahan: Mmm. Yeah, ⁓ right, let's talk about your app. ⁓ because I do think it's really, really cool because I think it is something that's sort of a little more tangible or accessible if you will, right? So kind of built this tool with all of this in mind, right? From that lens, right, can you share with us about ⁓ Divorce it's sort of intention, thoughts, how you see it being utilized? not as ⁓ a substitutive process for what clients are doing, but complementary to the work an ADR professional may be using with a client. Tamara Arnold: Yeah. So I built the DivorceWave app as I was going through the DCA Coaches certification program, actually. And there's a lot of tools on the app that DCA Coaches will recognize are grounded in the principles that we learned in your program, which is great, I think, because it really reinforces the work that we as coaches are doing with our clients. But the gives our clients a tool to use in those in-between moments. So what it includes are It's basically audio, what I call waves. They're audio waves. They're guided mindfulness based 15 to 20 minute waves. There's journaling exercises. There was waves that you can do while you're moving. And then there's short, quick waves that are really just meant to get you back on track when those triggers arise. So it's a mindfulness based exercise, but it's very specific to divorce. This is not like a calm. This is not like head space. all of the waves are very specific to the experiences and the emotions that are going to rise during divorce. And so what it does is it sits on your phone, you pop in your earbuds, let's say you get an angry text from your ex at 9 p.m. and you want to respond, you want to start typing furiously. That's the part where you notice what's happening, you notice the reaction that you're having, you pause, you give yourself some space, you pop in your earbuds, you pull up the app and you pull up the one that says, I just received an angry text from my ex. Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Tamara Arnold: That is a five minute wave. It's a five minute wave. You pop in your earbuds. It's set to music. It takes you on an emotional experience to surface the emotions that are coming up to validate that it's okay, to give you a little bit of breathing exercises, a little bit of tools, some visualization. You follow the music. All you need to do is listen. Tracy Callahan: There is one wave that says that. Tamara Arnold: and with an open mind and just kind of breathe through it. And then by the end, you take out your earbuds and you will feel more rational again. You will feel more calm. You will feel in that space that you can respond as your best self. And so it's all very situational. Let's say, for example, you just found out your ex has a new significant other. There's a way for that. You can pop in your earbuds, surface all the lovely emotions that we know are gonna come up. Understand that we all go through these emotions and accept it and address it and not suppress those emotions. Let them flow through you. And when they flow through you, they dissipate. go back and you, ⁓ almost like the wise bird in your ear talking you off the ledge, right? ⁓ that kind of supportive environment. And makes you feel kind of that you're not alone in these emotions. We all go through it. Tracy Callahan: Absolutely. mean, so how many waves are there? Tamara Arnold: dozens. There's almost 100 waves right now. ⁓ ⁓ Tracy Callahan: I mean, I know I had a chance to kind of jump in it. So like, there is a lot, right? How did you come up with all of these potential, you know, they're that granular of I just thought, yeah, how, wait, what was, what was, okay, from your own experience of thinking of ⁓ ⁓ had that, that happened and I've had this. Tamara Arnold: Yeah, I- They're very specific. How did I come up with it? I've been there. I've been there, yeah, absolutely. Tracy Callahan: feeling and I could have used some support there. I love that. Tamara Arnold: Yeah. Yeah. For me, when I was going through my divorce, and it's been five years for me now, but I was going through my divorce during COVID. And so I had a lot of alone time. I had a lot of ⁓ thinking time. And the thing that got me out of my own pity party, frankly, was getting out for walks, listening to my earbuds, and really thinking about it. And when I was listening to regular meditation, it was fine. It was helpful. but it wasn't my experience. And so I started thinking about what if there was something out there that it was addressing my experience, that was addressing all of these emotions that I'm having that I don't necessarily want to be having. I don't necessarily want to be angry at my family for not understanding what I'm going through. So there's a way for that. I don't want to be feeling that I'm sabotaging my own process with my own reactions. There's a way for that. And I will say some of the waves are challenging. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Next. Tamara Arnold: You they hold up a mirror to to say how am I contributing to this conflict cycle? Some of them are definitely more challenging And then there was the time that I had to face that even though I was the one that asked for the divorce I missed him. I was sad. I was grieving and how do I reconcile those two thoughts that I want this and yet I'm still sad and I'm grieving so there's a way for that to It's all of the emotions that'll come up Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yeah. Tamara Arnold: during this process and there's so many, so, so many. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. I really, really, really think there's something in that, right? Versus this sort of general approach to it. It's like, yeah, somebody understands that this is happening, right? So I think there's such power in that connection. So for those who are listening and are curious about Divorce Wave, where can they learn more about it and access it? And I know we're going to have the information in the show notes for people, but Tamara Arnold: Right. Tracy Callahan: there a place ⁓ you can ⁓ something? ⁓ Tamara Arnold: Absolutely. Since this is show specifically for coaches, I created a special offer for coaches. get a free account. ⁓ because I want them to try it out and see if it's something that they will consider using with their clients ⁓ an added value, because I don't see it as a coach replacement. I see it as an added value that coaches can offer their clients in those in-between moments. Coaches can go to divorcewave.com and they click through to try the app for free. It's not available on the Google and Apple app stores, but you can download it to your phone. It's a web-based app. So just click through and try it for free and then search for the, when the six month option comes up, the code will be DCACoach and all coaches can get free six months. they can try it and recommend it to their clients. And then for their clients, if their clients want to try the app again, there's a seven day free offer ⁓ and can give their clients the code WAVEWRITER. Tracy Callahan: Mm-hmm. Tamara Arnold: which will make the app just 49.99 for the entire year. And I want it to be approachable. I want it to be accessible. I really want people to try it because going through divorce is so hard. a of people have never tried mindfulness. They've never tried meditation. This app is very approachable. ⁓ for men and women. I only use the words ex and spouse because I don't want to talk about husbands and wives. It's for everybody. Tracy Callahan: Wow. Yeah, yeah. So I listened to some waves and I have to tell you, I was just calm. mean, it was very, very soothing. So kudos to your recordings. They are really impressive. But I wanna take a little application, okay? So we just shared with how divorce coaches can incorporate this. Let's talk about something, right? Tamara Arnold: haha Thank you. Tracy Callahan: How would you see a divorce coach utilizing this, right, to better prepare clients, right, for those 2 a.m. moments, right, where decisions may actually be being made, where things are happening that we talked about, right, in this nonlinear? How do you see a divorce coach actually applying this in the work with a client to prepare them for those moments, those 2 a.m.? Tamara Arnold: Right. Right. Well, let's talk about a coaching session, right? So we get our clients in the coaching session and we've got an hour with them maybe. It's so busy. It's so busy in those sessions. They're talking about everything that happened in the past week. They're angry. Maybe they're still grieving. And then we have to get to work thinking about their mediation coming up, all of the things that we need to do in the session to help them get prepared, right? So we can surface what they're going through. We can surface the things that they're really struggling with, but we often don't have time. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Tamara Arnold: to help them in those moments. I mean, I don't have time to sit there and take them through a 15 minute breathing exercise to get them calm again so we can be productive in our sessions. So the way that I see coaches utilizing this is let's say, for example, client makes a comment like, I'm so angry right now. I'm so angry that I can't do my paperwork. I can't get it done because every time I sit down, I just can't focus. And then the coach elicits more. Well, what are you angry about? Well, Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Tamara Arnold: It just had so happens that even on top of all of this, I still miss him. I'm still grieving. I still feel connected and I still don't know if I have the strength to go through with this. Well, now the coach has the information that they need. And so maybe they can say, okay, we have, let's talk about this a little bit. But then after the session, the coach can assign the client some homework a little bit and give the client permission to really surface those emotions, to really validate and work through those emotions. So the coach. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Tamara Arnold: can assign their client, say, when you have a quiet moment, listen to this. And maybe they'll give them wave. They'll send them a link to the wave that says grieving the loss of my marriage. ⁓ ⁓ spouse has a new significant other and I'm feeling all of this emotion come up. ⁓ So the can surface the emotion that's happening and then send them the appropriate wave to say, hey, listen to this. I think it'll really address some of the feelings that you're feeling right now. Tracy Callahan: you Mm-hmm. Tamara Arnold: and allow the client to process those feelings in their own time, in the privacy of their own home, and really just work through the emotions. And it's not just sad waves. There's also really great waves about, you know, ⁓ they had a victory, if they ⁓ through the mediation and it didn't go badly, they actually got some of the things that they were struggling for and fighting for. ⁓ coach can send them that victory lap wave, you know, something to give them encouragement to keep going. So there's waves for the positive, there's waves for the negative, there's waves for the really hard moments, there's waves to celebrate, there's waves to address the anger, to work through it. So the coach can really identify what the client needs most in those moments and give them permission to their own coach in those moments, to work through those emotions when they can. Tracy Callahan: In extension, I think this is such an important conversation because it really challenges how we think about support and divorce, right? And if conflict is happening in real time, but support is only available in scheduled time, right? We're missing those moments where the most impact can actually be made. Tamara Arnold: Right. Right. And we as coaches, we want to help our clients whenever we can, but we also have our own personal lives and we also have to maintain our own boundaries. So let's say for example, right. So let's say for example, your client is texting you or however you communicate with your client and their ex just did the thing that drives them crazy. We know it drives them crazy. Well, in that moment, the coach can say, you know. Tracy Callahan: rational boundaries, right? Yes. Tamara Arnold: I've got my own life. can't address this until our next session, but here's a way that you can listen to, pop in your earbuds, this before you respond. And I can promise you that response will be so much more empowered. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, and I think your work really highlights this so clearly, right? If we want better outcomes, right? And again, I just said a podcast song, we can't want it more for our clients than they want it for themselves. But ultimately, we do want to support clients on a journey for better outcomes for themselves, legally, relationally, especially when there's co-parenting involved. ⁓ really need to be able to start designing, if you will, support around ⁓ Tamara Arnold: for sure. Tracy Callahan: conflict actually unfolds when and how it's traditionally structured, right? So Tamara, I wanna thank you so much for bringing this perspective ⁓ work you're doing to close this gap ⁓ for creating tools like DivorceWave that absolutely extends support beyond that session. Tamara Arnold: and when. Thank you. Yeah, and if any coaches wants to try it out, again, they get a free account so they can just email me. All the links will be in the show notes. I'm happy to set them up and walk them through and give them some suggestions as to how they can use the app for their clients to enhance their services. Tracy Callahan: Absolutely. So it'll all be the show notes and to everyone listening, if you're a divorce coach, mediator or legal professional, this is really an invitation to think differently about where your role begins and it might need to extend. So I want to thank you all for listening. Tamara, thank you again for joining us and we look forward to you returning. Yeah. Thanks so much. Bye. Tamara Arnold: So great to be here. Thank you so much.