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What I've Learnt - Madonna King · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Madonna King is author of a new book called L Platers: How to Support Your Teen Daughter on the Road to Adulthood.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: She's an Australian journalist, author, and media commentator, and from 2006 until 2011, King presented mornings on ABC Radio Brisbane.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: She's published several books, including the biographies of notable Australians Ian Fraser and Joe Hockey.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: She's also co-authored a book about the Barley 9.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: In 2018, Queensland Premier Anastasia Palachuk appointed King as chairwoman of the Queensland government's fledgling anti-bullying task force, established in the wake of the suicide of teenage cyberbullying victim Amy Dolly Everett.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, from social media, Snapchat, surgery, and school formals, her new book is a fascinating insight into the challenges facing a modern-day teenager.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, Madonna, welcome to the What I've Learned Podcast.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Thrilled to have you on board.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: We share a very similar trajectory, although different.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, I really think this is a very important issue, and you've covered it very extensively.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe we can start with you yourself have teenagers, is that correct?
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: So, what ages are your your children?
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: I just turned 17 and just turned 18, two girls.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so you know intimately, as do I, the challenges, and it probably has given you some impetus to write this book, but you can talk to that.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Is that part of what incentivized you to go on this path?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: Isn't it funny?
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: Not at all.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: My first book, this is the fourth in a lineup.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: One was called Tenager, being 14, fathers and daughters are now L Platers.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I was emptying an event of school leavers about four or five years ago.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: And my last question, as my daughters were about to go into high school, I said, Can you each give me one piece of advice that I can take home to my family?
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I went down the panel, and every one of them said, Being 14 sucks.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: Your parents hate you when you're 14, get off social media when you're 14.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: I can't stand my sister, she's 14.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I went home to my husband and I said, I don't know what it is about being 14, but I'm scared.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: My daughter wasn't there yet.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: And that same night, what are the odds of this?
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: My best friend lived in another town in Queensland here in Townsville, and she sent me a text saying, On the day your eldest turns 14, I'm going to send you a bottle of French champagne.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: I suggest you drink it in one sitting.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: She was poking.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: But she had a 14-year-old, and I thought there is something about girls and 14 that is a concern.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I actually explored that, interviewed several hundred of them, and wrote a book called Being 14.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I was speaking at a parent community in Adelaide, and his dad came up to me as I was getting into the cab to go back to the airport, and he said, Oh, that's very well, you know, but I've got a 15-year-old stepdaughter and a 14-year-old daughter.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: What do I do as a stepfather to be the best carer?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, what a beautiful bloke, but I've I had no idea.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so that, and I thought, why don't I look at fathers and daughters?
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: And then I got an email that prompted teenager, and then I was talking to a woman, uh, a school mum at a barbecue 18 months ago, and she said, Why don't you look at 17-year-olds?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Why?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: And she said, My daughter was so gregarious, had so many friends, she's left school and she's left them all.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: She's isolated, she's doing university from her bedroom.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know who she's speaking to online, but she's not the happy, confident girl she was.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I ignored it for a little while.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: And the more I thought about it and the impact of the pandemic, I thought, I wonder if this is a thing.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: And oh my goodness, yeah, it really is a thing.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I know, I mean, I have three children myself, and I also am surrounded by a lot of um parents, obviously.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I've seen the challenges and the transition for a lot of people, particularly these girls, who just, as you say, there's somehow, there seems a sense of isolation that develops.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, referring to the 14-year-old, yes, but the 17-year-old, which is your present book and focus, the L Platers book, is really interesting because I think we're not as prepared for what, because they're about to go out into the big world, because they're on the cusp, and often there's that sort of rite of passage, the gap here.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, for example, most of them are doing it at 20 now.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: I know my son certainly is, because obviously there was almost like a hiatus of two years where they got lost, but that's a COVID-related issue.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: But it probably exaggerates what is an already complex transitional time.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what a clever question.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: I I think that's right.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's two causes.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, university staff are saying they're seeing 18-year-olds act more like 15-year-olds.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: And the reason is two things.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: One is, as you said, COVID.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: Think of what you did when you were 16.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: Think of the mistakes you made, the misjudgments.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: And our children have not been allowed to do that because uncertainty has killed so many of those opportunities from things they would have to navigate at parties to friendship to a whole lot of stuff, even school excursions.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so they they haven't been able to practice being an adult.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's the first thing.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: The second thing, I think, is school has become harder, more academic, more competitive, particularly private and independent schools are wanting to top those league tables.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: And as a result of that, our children's anxiety is so strong that they that is their focus.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: They're giving up everything from part-time jobs to sport to friendships.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_02: Some have got the ATAR figure, their ranking figure, painted on the ceiling of their bedroom wall.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: And they've narrowed their life to this one number that you and I know will not dictate their success.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I often say that, you know, to various, you know, kids that I come across.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: It just doesn't define you.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: Now, why have we got a system that is set up?
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it is really toxic to have a system that is set up with expectation that almost is impossible to meet.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: And as you say, corrals these kids into this sort of we didn't even have that.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was really, you know, yes, you wanted to do well, but it wasn't all defining.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: For some reason, the system has become very and it paralyzes these kids.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: So they're either, as you say, sort of stuck, I mean, separate to COVID, even just before COVID.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's right.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think I like to think that after this research, and I I sought the counsel of 1,000 girls aged 16, 17, and 18, that there is this new disease of comparison, and they don't compare themselves in a sense, um, they wish their peers the best, but they are brutal in their own self-judgment.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: So even at the age of 10, I found that girls were deciding not to do science in high school.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: If they got six out of 10 and their friends got nine out of 10, they decided I'm not a science girl.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: Likewise, I think when they're 15 and 16, their social media is just wallpaper, comparison with everything from clothes to body shape to hair colour to eyes.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: And as a result of that, they are always going to compare upwards, richer, thinner, prettier, and that has had a huge impact on our girls.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: And tell me, do you think this is new?
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: There was always an element of that.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I recently caught up with some old school friends and we meet regularly, and oh, we were laughing and you know about the things that you think matter at that time.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: But my point is, do you think it's it's changed, or do you think it's always been there?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's just an exaggerated form now.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's absolutely changed.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and it's exaggerated.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: If you just think, if I can give you one example, if you're driving your 14 or 15-year-old to school tomorrow morning, you might see a billboard of a beautiful woman dressed scantily at the beach.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: You can say to your daughter, that's fake.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: That's not a real picture, that's not a real, real beach.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: And she will understand that.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: But now on social media, just let me give you the example of dark ads, where our children are receiving ads based on what their searches are, their digital traces, but they only appear for a second and they disappear.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: So you don't know what your daughter's seeing, you don't know what your son's seeing.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: University researchers said to me in L Platers, they can't even capture these ads to research them.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: And what my daughter is getting is different from what your son is getting.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's so tailored to their individual searching.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: So, how can we talk to our children about that?
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: How can we give them the critical thinking skills?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I think one girl said to me, of course we know it's fake.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: We're not dumb, we know it's fake.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: But when it's there every time you turn on your phone, it's really hard not to compare yourself.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: One school principal said to me, What she's saying is almost a generational difference between an 18-year-old and a 10-year-old, that the world has changed so much in those eight years that a big sister might almost be a generation older than her 10-year-old sister.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: And when you just think of the consequences of that, well, I can observe that myself.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: I can see that with certain gaps.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: The difference between, let's say, my 27-year-old and some of the 18-year-olds is quite dramatic and in terms of what their exposure is.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: In particular, I think what concerns me, and I mean, I know you you actually in your book you refer to, you know, imagine a thousand ten girls in one room and you ask one question, what's the biggest challenge you face?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: And 700 of them give the same answer, my mental health.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of, you know, it's it's quite disturbing, but it's not surprising when you see how inundated they are by things that you've just referenced.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in particular, I suppose the the issues of body image, which I've talked on this podcast a lot about with various models and people in the industry, the pressure on these girls, which comes over social media to be thin and the thin spiration, and as you say, the dark web where there's sort of flashes or there's there's pop-ups, if you like.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: How do we how do we equip them?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's almost so normalized.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: You and I never had that.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we didn't have any of those.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I was even thinking, you know, I'd never heard of these two forms of disordered eating, like eating disorders, one called chewing and spitting, where girls are chewing something and then getting rid of it.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: And the other is orthorexia, which may start with a green smoothie, and then they only put into their mouths something that's pure.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: So they have no sugar, preservatives, wheat, gluten, and it goes, they narrow and narrow.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'd never heard of that.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's a really difficult space for parents too, because even when you say your 27-year-old son, I was talking to someone recently who has uh a child about the same age.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually a girl, she's actually 27 girl.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, her speech is slower and better than someone who may be seven or eight years younger because they're used to just writing in acronyms, um, texting, and they speak so fast because that's their language, that if you line up a 27-year-old and an 18-year-old, you can actually see when they talk, when they communicate the influence of that smartphone.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it's sort of bite-size, isn't it?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's everything's in bite size in terms of communication.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the other thing is there's also then this sort of huge, and whether this is relevant or not, there's a huge also overlay of well, there's a lot of people on ADHD medication, there's a lot of these young girls being put on, you know, a whole raft of things to sort of contain their brain, some of which is very valid and important because obviously there are some that need it.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I wonder if the like, I don't know if you are somebody who's on your phone a lot, I'm on it reasonably, but obviously I'm a mature woman and so are you.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: But can you imagine what that's doing to your brain if it's incessant and it's constant and it's distracting from absolutely everything.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: And the girls know that.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: I asked the 1,000 of them, how often are you on your mobile phone?
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: And don't count school because some may use it in class.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: So during the week it's an average of three hours.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: This is after school, on the weekend it's more.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, So describe your relationship with it.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: And they said, toxic, obsessive, unkind, horrible.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: They all had these adjectives to describe their relationship, but the pull, the lure of it was so strong they couldn't quite give it up.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember one uh principal in Adelaide said to me, even if they don't touch it for the first 10 minutes of the morning, it actually gets them in a better frame because they're not reaching and looking for it straight away.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: But we I've found in this that we even probably have to teach them that at 17 because, and I know in my family, my eldest lives away at a university college.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: So last year we practiced allowing her to have the phone in her room.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: Seems ridiculous at 17, but I knew at college it would always be in her room because that's all she has.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so we went bit by bit to ensure that she wasn't just having it till the last minute and then picking it up the next morning.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we've handheld our children, particularly in schools perhaps, to the point where they are graduating, and I suspect boys too, without those skills that you and I had, and I don't just mean judgment skills, I mean things like how to get a tax file number, having done a first day course, um, being enrolled to vote, um, having knowing what superannuation is.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: I spoke to girls who were 17 who had never caught public transport.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: And when I spoke to university tutors about how they could see the difference between those girls they thought would cope as 18-year-olds and those who would struggle, they said they could see it the moment they walked in.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: And it was the amount of confidence that they held within themselves.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I went home thinking that's a really good lesson for me.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we kind of sometimes think things like that aren't tested so they can develop those eventually.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I think those soft skills of confidence and teamwork and kindness and being able to communicate what you and I are doing are the things that actually determine how far you go in life, aren't they?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: Not what you get on your physics exam.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's and it's so I mean, my kids are are older now, but it is really quite so evident and so clear that something between the ages that you've referred to is going very awry.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the question is, you know, how do we fix it?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: How do we equip our kids as you've outlined?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: But also, you know, you talk also about I was just looking at some of these interesting this research, you know, El Platers explores gender identity and and those aspects, which is another massive issue, uh, because obviously there are so many versions and variations that are emerging.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: I actually said to my daughter the other day, we were talking, this is my 22-year-old, and we're talking about I feel like everything's a choice.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: There is just so much to choose from that it's almost overwhelming for these girls and these and boys.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like this endless smorgasbord of choice.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now, while that's great, and I think it's it's really um liberating on one level, it is also really confusing for them.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: You are spot on.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I actually spoke to a social demographer, Mark McCrindle, who almost said that.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: He said, in the smorgasboard of life, our teens are grazers.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: They can have anything from everywhere.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: They want to be so inclusive.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, but inclusive to what?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: To what end?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: To what purpose?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you are so right that some are just frozen in fear.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: Fear of choosing the wrong course, the wrong partner, the wrong way.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: And they don't think, well, I can just change, I can turn the corner and go a different way.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: And part of that maybe come from choices, some from privilege, some from the way our schools, I think, um, and I'm not talking against this, but there is a level of hand holding happening where you know a student can hand in five drafts of an assignment.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, teachers are on the lookout for the child who isn't coping.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they're told what to study when in 40-minute chunks.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: Their homework is corrected, they're given homework.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: Then they stop school.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: No one ever tells them to put their hand up to go to the toilet again.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: And all of a sudden, they're lost.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: No one's waking them up, no one's getting them to lectures on time, no one tells them what's required at work.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, one girl told me how she went and handed a draft into a university tutorer and he looked at it and he said, This looks like a draft.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: And she said, Yeah.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, Oh, sweetie, I think I might wait for the final copy.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: And she was devastated.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: But I think when we are actually handhelding them, maybe parentally too, to the point where we're not allowing them to fail.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like if we I do agree with you, and I think it's a really important point because they get to university somewhat ill-equipped, and then the other thing that's happening is it's filtering through to certain aspects of university where they can everything's negotiable.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think everyone has a right to negotiate what is reasonable, and life is actually the ability to negotiate.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: But when everything's negotiable, from how long you sit your exam or whether you sit it in a certain way or in a certain space or at a certain time, or you have it is very interesting to just see this sort of avalanche of options, which by all sort of the liberals of which I am one, small L liberal, I support choice in every sense.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I think where we've we've almost overcorrected a little bit, and we have to make sure that our kids also know there are limits, there are restrictions, and that it's okay to choose a path and then choose another one, but give it a good shot, you know.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: And and to give them the skills to be able to make good choices, correct, as best as that can be done.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes, if it's not a good choice, as you say, failing is where we learn the most often.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Another very important point that you um you raise is a teen girl's liver is very different to a teen boy's liver.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: This I found this interesting.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's not fully developed until the early 20s, and that has significant consequences.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Girls are more affected by alcohol and for longer.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Experts have lists of stories where girls have lost their licenses the day after they were drinking.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: They really do have to be super careful.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: So talk to me about that because I don't think that's well known, actually.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: No, well, I didn't know it either, to be honest.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and Paul Dillon is just an expert in this area based in Sydney, and he not long ago gave a talk, and a mother then said, Look, let me take you through a liver ward at a hospital.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: She was a specialist, and as she did it, she said, I forget her exact words, but they're words along the lines of, This used to be full of old men, we're now seeing young women.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it's women with liver damage.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: And Paul Dylan said, when he goes into a school, girls want to be equal.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: They want to be able to say they can drink a boy under a table.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, That's true, they might be able to, but what's the response in their liver?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because their enzymes are different, their size of their liver, the development is different, and it means that their ability to process alcohol generally is lower than that of a male equivalent.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: Often they have a smaller body weight as well.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, the other thing is none of them ever ask, well, how does alcohol mix with the pill or my anxiety medication or my ADHD medication?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, you know, they've been on this medication often, boys and girls, for years, and then they think, well, the next step, 18, is a party, and there's no conversation around the mixing of things.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I hadn't thought of that as an issue, too.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: But he said it's it's something that every parent should be alert to.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: That is very important and something that I think my listeners will really appreciate knowing because it is it is a real mind field.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: So for you, year 12 and uni, which is where your book is heading, you make mention of schools failing dismally to prepare students for uni, as we touched on before.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think they can do academically, other than, as you say, there's an element of spoon feeding, which doesn't really help you because when you get there, you don't know what you're doing unless you actually learn the skills.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think there's got to be a change in the structure?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: And certainly something fundamental has to change in the way that year 12 has become this absolutely terrifying mountain to climb.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: When I did it, it was like, well, if I could get into a cadet ship, I'll be really happy.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I went to a very academic school, and a lot of people went on to be very academic, but whatever the journey is, it was never this level of pressure.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: So do we need to just change the system?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: There is talk of that, too, by the way.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well, changing talk, talk, talk.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's all they do, I reckon.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like, there's not even a mental health expert on the curriculum panels that decide workloads and what a curriculum includes.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that would be a great and easy first start.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think for parents to Actually, say, all right, school's doing this, but what do I want my child to be?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I think if we think of it, to me, I want my daughters when they turn 18 to be kind and curious and smart and savvy and interested and interesting.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I think all those things are skills that are not taught and tested in school.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: So will they listen to other people?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: Are they a good leader?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: Do they work well in a team?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: Can they stand up in front of people and give a presentation?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: Can they walk into a room, put out their hand, look in someone's eyes and introduce themselves?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: Now I think too often, ironically, they're called soft skills, but we undervalue them because they're not tested, they're not part of the ATAR system.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the more we as parents talk about their importance, the more maybe schools will start to value their importance too.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think teachers are on board with us very strongly.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's the system, the politicians who say, you know, we've got to beat China and Japan and Finland.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, if we were beating all those other countries academically, all right, I'll say tick, you got it right.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: But we're not.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: We're not so we're doing something very wrong.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the word after all my research I like most is the word balance.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: If you want your child, or they want to, more importantly, to do medicine, they're going to have to work bloody hard.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: Encourage that.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: But what are they going to do for balance?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: You can still do what you like, but we've got to build it.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: You can't have a part-time job and play hockey and play the flute and play the piano and get a top eight house girl and get your license in year 12.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, at some point you've got to develop priorities.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we need to step in and help them do that.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: I totally agree with you.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: My daughter is actually doing medicine, so I relate very much to what you're talking about, and two of her friends as well.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: And balance is a really big issue because it's so taxing and from like intense.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: However, I think there is something filtering through to that generation.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: They're a little older, but if we start at 17, 18 with things like your book and talking about these issues and maybe trans changing the system, particularly for that mid-group, the 17 to 24-year-olds, you know, the next gen coming right up, it will just be life-changing and it will really protect a lot of their mental health because I do worry a lot about the impact of this.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think expectation, you talk about the word of balance, I agree with you, but expectation has become absolutely diabolical.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually on every level.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I I wonder whether it has to be earlier.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think, you know, educators told me that jump from year 10 to year 11 is the biggest in the school system.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think in year nine, we have to start talking about the trajectory.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: They don't have to decide.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: I say to my girls, when someone says, What do you want to be?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: you turn around and say kind or a good person.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: Great response.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: And but do you know to talk to year fives?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: I remember at my school, my children had to fill out a form of the skills they wanted and what they wanted to be when they grow up.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I was devastated because they both put journalism at the bottom of the list.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: I kept thinking, wonderful.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: My husband is a journalist too.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: But I think, you know, this is ridiculous.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: Why not just fill their minds with curiosity and get them to think about the things they like, the broad areas they like, but they they have plenty of time to decide how they will contribute and how they will find purpose.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I a hundred percent agree with you on that.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: Just one other before we go, one other very important issue.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: The issue of sex education in schools has become quite controversial on a number of fronts.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: How do teachers, how do schools navigate this?
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: And what did you what did you uncover on that, on that sort of because God help you?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I just think of the the interviews and the the stories you must have had to go on to, you know, the the pathways to understand.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, how teachers navigate.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm just glad I'm not a teacher, to be honest.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: It would be quite challenging.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: Now, teachers aren't trained in this, and the reason I laugh is I say it in L Platers.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: In one school, they brought out this piece of foam shaped as a big penis.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: And the science teacher in the science lab put these condoms around and said, All right, we're going to fit a condom on a penis.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: And all the girls looked around to think, well, who's done this before in real life?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: Perhaps they could go first.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: And like they're not silly.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: They've been on social media for years, even if many of them aren't in a romantic relationship.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: But but what they want to know is things like coercive control, to stop blaming themselves if they were drunk or they didn't scream stop or they feared for themselves.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: They want to know about urinary tract infections.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: They're not going to ask for school chaplain, things like that.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the best way forward is for schools to contract people who are experts in this area, because they're not if our aim is that there is less fur assaults, that our girls are more common, and I feel sorry for boys too, because you know, they're just seeing things online and they're doing things because they think the girls want to.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: The girls are doing those things because they think that's expected of them and that's what will keep the boy.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's value in that communication.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: And if they can hear that from someone who isn't their English teacher or their science teacher, someone who is an expert, and they can then ask questions without value or judgment, they're going to leave that classroom more equipped to deal with situations.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: And that should be our aim.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I agree with you.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: And just finally, are you hopeful?
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: Are you optimistic?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Are you, or do you have you come away feeling disturbed, worried, or all of the above?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: On some days, my heart ached, and other times I wore a huge smile.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: I think they are so much brighter than when you and I were that age.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: They are so much more articulate.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think they have so much more magic in their heart.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: They just need to be able to walk out the door and know how to use it.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so I am optimistic, but the more we as educators, parents, schools, adults, aunts, uncles can do to help, the better.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, on that note, Madonna, thank you so much.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: I've loved our chat.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: I loved hearing all about your book, but also just your perspective and your other books as well.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that you dive deep and that you go on this journey to find out what's happening out there in the real world.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: And the universality of what you do is interesting too.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because really, it's quite I think that's what we learn, isn't it?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: But it's much more universal than we think it is.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, we're all together.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Majonna, take care and thank you so much.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: My pleasure.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: The What I've Learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly, with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, stay tuned, be kind, and curious.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: Love death.