Latest / Radio 831: A Romance Podcast / The State of Celebrity Romance, Lit Agent Ariele Fredman on What’s Next in Romance, and Our Q3 Internet Boyfriends

Transcript

The State of Celebrity Romance, Lit Agent Ariele Fredman on What’s Next in Romance, and Our Q3 Internet Boyfriends · Radio 831: A Romance Podcast

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome to the Radio eight three one podcast.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: We're your hosts, Sinjonabasker and Tyler McCall, and we're so
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: excited to talk everything romance, from the novels and the
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: tropes to the book, to screen adaptations and of course
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: the drama of it all, you know, unpacking what the
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: genre says about who we are and how.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: We love big stuff, important stuff.
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: Tyler, I've been having a thought many such cases.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: What's the thought today?
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: It's about Taylor Swift. And I say that with some sadness.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: I'm immediately like, that's that is the last thought I
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: thought you would have on this earth.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: But go ahead.
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: I okay, here's the thing. Let me be clear. I
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: am Taylor Swift agnostic, which is to say I am
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: neither worshipful nor like it. Don't despise her. I believe
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: that she wields some power on this earth and it's
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: worth recognizing that. And also I don't fully understand what
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: the big deal is, and that's why I say I'm
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: Taylor Swift agnostic.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: However, I have been reflecting a lot on the sheer
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: production of her recent Madison Square Garden wedding, and I
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: have been thinking a lot about the spectacle of celebrity
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: romance and celebrity relationships and how large they seem to
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: loom in our lives. Were you following the Taylor Swift
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: Travis Kelsey wedding.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: I definitely always following, manus.
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: I think part of the reason why I want to
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: bring it up in the context of a romance podcast
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: is this wedding.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: Which I thought people were going to have like.
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: So much excitement and joy for, was received not well
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: by just about everybody I know, and even the like
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: diehard Taylor Swift fans in my life were sort of.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: Like, She's ridiculous.
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: Sometimes it's just the way it is, do you know
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: what I mean? Like there was less this is the
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: royal wedding. I'm so happy about this and more what
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: a bizarre spectacle?
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: Why would you get married at MSG?
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: So I'll just continue the Taylor Swift thread here and
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: tell you that when you contrast it with a wedding
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: like Maddy Healy and Gabriette's wedding, honestly, even Callum Turner
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: and Dualipa, where in both cases those are weddings that
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: feel like, if I may say so, like real weddings
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: like they felt like weddings that were tailored to those
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: couples instead of it being like a spectacle. I mean,
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: they were spectacles in their own right, But like, if
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: I could say, like one thing about the Taylor Swift's
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: wedding that like honestly kind of bummed me out was
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: the guest list, because it was truly the biggest amalgamation
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: of like why was this person? Like why is Steven
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Spielberg at your wedding? I guess if you're that famous
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: and you can have Steven Spielberg at your wedding, invite him,
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: why not go off you? Why does this feel to
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: me like it's more for marketing purposes or like a
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: continuation of like a brand that it is a wedding.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: Does that make sense to you? It does?
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: But it's also interesting because it's the wedding out of
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: the three that you mentioned that.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: We've seen the least of.
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: I know, we do not have the inside I mean
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: yet as of this point yet, and so in some
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: way it was less visibly a branding moment. In some way,
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: the Dulei Pa Kalum Turner wedding felt like an audition
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: for Bond his auditions. Yeah. Yeah. I think part of
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: what I'm sensing about this, and part of what I
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: feel like is relevant to our understanding of romance in
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: these relationships and in these weddings, is that people are
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: highly attuned to what they perceive to be artifice, yes,
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: And people seem to be highly attuned to what they
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: see as genuine intimacy, even though we are all sort
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: of aware of the fact that celebrities exist to produce
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: spectacles for us to watch, and still we have culturally
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: expectations of authenticity and genuineness and honest, earnest intimacy that
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: celebrities are not always successful at fulfilling, yes, which is
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: so interesting to me.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: I think we're living in a time where people are
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: more aware than ever because of social media, of terms
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: like PR relationships and PR stunts and things like that,
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: And genuinely, I think we should have been gatekeeping more
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: because now there's conspiracies everywhere for everything you know, And
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: so I think you have a public that is highly
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: suspicious of everything that celebrities do, which I think is
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: probably healthy, but I'm definitely prone to that with someone
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: like a Taylor Swift, who I know to be much
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: more controlling of her public image and much more controlling
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: of her brand than a Gabriette who, like frankly, is
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: too cool for me to really worry about.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean?
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: Like I've actually always considered, I'm like, I gotta I can't.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: I can't clock into whatever's happening here all the time
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: because I don't deserve to be here, you know what
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: I mean?
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: Like, I know what you mean? What I mean? For
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: a long time, I was like, what is this woman's job?
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: But I think it's It's interesting to me because one
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: romance as a genre is so often playing with these
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: similar themes of true self, authentic self for himself, the
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: very niche of fake dating, which far precedes the public's
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: awareness of pr relationships, like people have been writing fake
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: dating since the dawn of romance basically, and that angle
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: of romance as a genre being really interested in deceit
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: and authenticity and truth and then now having a public
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: that is really invested in those same properties in the
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: celebrity couples, I think feels like an interesting parallel to me,
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: a little chicken egg. It's hard to say what came first.
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: People have been speculating about celebrities forever. Romance has been
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: writing about authenticity and truth forever, and they've been reacting
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: to each other forever.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, especially because the idea of.
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: Constructing a personal brand, whether you're Taylor Swift or Gabber
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: or person on the street has become increasingly so important.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: I think what we want as a public is to
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: feel connected in a genuine.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: Way to these love stories.
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: Like, if I think about a celebrity couple that I'm
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: invested in, it's like Tom Hollinden's and Deya because they
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: just feel like you see them in interviews and they're
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: just so clearly, you know, over the moon for each other,
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: and it's very sweet and it's you know, real, And
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: if I wanted to like really overextend myself above my
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: pay grade, I would say that it's probably also connected
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: to like AI and technology and wanting to get the truth,
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: like the current political climate we live in. No, I
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: don't think that's an overextension. I think the reality is
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: that we exist in times where truth is hard to
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: come by, and so people are looking for authenticity and
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: honesty wherever they can get it. And often the way
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: that we are responding to experiencing and enmeshed with celebrity
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: and broader pop culture is indicative in some way of
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: how we think about our own intimate lives and our
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: own appetites for certain kinds of stories, for certain kinds
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: of ways of being. And I think it's telling that
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: so much of romance is interested in this question of
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: authenticity and truth. Yeah, sign of the times, speaking of
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: truth and authenticity. That brings us to our guests today,
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: Uta superagent Ariel Fredman. We had her on to discuss
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: what she's looking for in romance today, what the state
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: of the romance market looks like, what debut authors can
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: do to stand out in the market. And she should
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: know because she's my agent, and she picked my debut
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: out of a pile to become my agent. So I'm
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: very excited. How are you today, Hi, so good, Thanks
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: for having me. I'm really excited to have you on
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: today so that we can discuss trends in romance. I
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: feel like a good place to start is what are
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: you looking for in debut authors? Like, when you get
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: a debut manuscript across your desk, what makes you go
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: I want to work with this person and feel free
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: to say as many nice things about me, as you'd.
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: Like, Yeah, well, I think so makes me want to
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: work with a person, And I think that's a good question.
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: The first word is person, and people sometimes forget that
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: agents are also people, just the way that you are
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: both a writer and a person and a partner and
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: a you know, like there's other things going on in
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: your life. And I really appreciate someone who reaches out
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: and is like I saw you have kids, or like
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: I'm sure you're busy, or I thought you said something
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: funny on Tyler's podcast or something like that that shows like, hey,
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: I'm reaching out to you specifically because something about your work, ethic,
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: previous work, personality, life, you know, appeals to me. And
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: I appreciate that because it lets me know that they've
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: done research in the same way that when I work
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: with someone, I'm going to do research on them and
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: then for debut. I think my answer now would be
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: different than even a year ago, because the market has
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: changed so much to say super nice things about you,
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: like you were just a person with a perspective and
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: a personality and a great pitch and a warm sensibility
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: and great writing. And then you also, if we're looking
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: at like the publishing checkboxes, you know, how to use
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: the internet. Who had a sub stack that like existed.
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: It was like, you know, a little dormant, but like
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: that was exciting. You had other people who were in
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: the same like mutual space as I was, that seemed
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: to love you, and so I was like, dang, I'm
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: going to reach out to this girl, and I think,
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: what did I slid into your dms? You know, to
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: bring it down to the human level, Like I'm out
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: here cruising the internet if I'm not reading and being like, oh,
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: this person seems cool, and then it leads to really fruitful,
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: huge book deals.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: So I know, a big part of your job is
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: having relationships with editors. Yeah, even if you're not trying
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: to actively sell them a specific book, you're meeting with them,
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: You're having conversations with them in terms of the romance space,
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: like what are you hearing that people are interested in
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: or looking for right now?
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: There's so much and it's very exciting, but it's also
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: like so broad that I shudder sometimes. So you know,
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: romanticy is shifting and people are kind of pulling it
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: apart again and calling it romantic fantasy or fantasy with
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: romantic elements. I think we're moving into a more fantasy
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: forward era, and I think people are also like, we
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: don't want to see dukes, and they don't want to
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: see dukes anymore. So there's an interest in you know, sure,
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: there's like a space opera, or there's a mermaid situation,
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: or there's like a new type of land, or there's
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: an issues driven something, and I think they're always going
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: to be those standouts. And the writing is really great
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: and the yearning is amazing, and the page turning quality
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: is awesome. But like, I think romanticy is going to
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: stick around for a bit and that's lovely, and I'm
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: happy for all the romanticy writers who are giving it
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: a try right now and also trying to do something original.
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: I think that the morally gray setup is working now,
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: like a dark prince or like a reevable monster, or
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: like a villain who you know you grow to love.
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: Like there's a lot of people in ku who are
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: writing really dark romance and maybe someone like you or
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: me would never have known to look at that or
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: read it before, but then someone recommends it on the
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: Internet and you're like click, and suddenly you're reading something
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: and it's gross and you're like, how can I not
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: look away?
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: And I think.
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: People are open to that now that they've read other
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: things that like tiptoe them. I mean maybe even Fifty
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: Shades of Gray was like the first thing that tipped
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: people into understanding that people with like moral dilemma and
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: like dark interests or different interests were more common and
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: mainstream and previously thought, yeah, talk to me a little
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: bit more about Romanticy, because I do feel like so
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: much of the conversation around that is that it's it's
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: somehow like a saturated market or that moment is over.
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: But I mean, you just had an author hit the
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: number one New York Times bestseller with the Romanticy. Yes, yes,
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: so IV Marie Immortal Consequences and Ruinous Ends is the
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: most recent, and it's just a duology.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: It's hit one two, You're done.
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: It's dark academia, it's Enemies to Lovers, it's morally gray.
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: The Ya Reader is now both fourteen and forty eight. Yeah,
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: and so that type of like yearning still plays because
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: it's nostalgic for the elders, and I'm putting myself in
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: that camp. And then it's like exciting and aspirational for
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: young people. But people are buying it.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's not what I think it was for
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: a little while, which is kind of retelling an existing
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: fairy tale, but like making it dark, so it's like
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: snow white but dark or like sleeping beauty but dark,
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: although I know those exist.
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and also fine, make it fun, but once you
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: hit the third snow wipe and make it dark like,
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: and it's done. And I think that's the point. Like,
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: if someone has really unique world building, whether dark fantasy,
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: straight up regular romanticy now dystopian fantasy or dystopian romance
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: is like coming back. I think we're having a Hunger
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: Games meets this new modern romance world upswing. If you
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: can do it with that little it's so hard to
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: say because like I'm saying unique, but what's unique to
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: me might not be unique to you. But then if
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: you can position in a way that's unique to publishers,
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: at least on the agent side, then hopefully you can
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: sell it.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I want to go back to paranormal too. Tell
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: me about what's going on in that genre. Well, I
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: bring it back to like even a Rebecca Searle and
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: in five years where there is like a magical twist
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: that comes along and you're like, I think I believe
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: this happened. I'm not sure, but I'm just gonna read
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: the story. And everything else is grounded. You're in the
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: modern day or like some normal timeline, but then there's
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: this like slight suspension of disbelief and in the lightly
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: paranormal that's like abudding contemporary romance. I think that's really
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: working for people, because who exists in this current timeline
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: that doesn't want to escape?
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: So why not have you.
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: Know, a gossip girl meets my best friend's wedding with
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: a ghost, and why not have that ghost be able
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: to like touch her and do things to her that
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: are very like fun but also impossible.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: Like it's so funny.
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: Because like if I were to explain this to my mom,
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: I would first all die. But the rest of the
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: story is so grounded and there's real emotion, and like,
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: I'm sure I cried when I read her book on
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: submission because I'm easy to make cry, but also because
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: like the emotion is brought to the page and I
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: feel for these people and there's a great cast of characters,
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: and I think that's what the lightly speculative thing can
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: do for people who aren't super in like, how many
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: people who read romance are going to be like, I
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: love aliens, I just want to read more alien romance.
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: There's definitely a subset of that. I'm sure they're like
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: all over Kindle. For a traditional publisher to buy that
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: and then publish it, that means they have to get
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: target Walmart, Amazon Books, a Million, Barnes and Noble, all
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: of the retailers on board with selling, and some of
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: the buyers at these places are not fifteen years old.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: They are well oiled.
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: Machines that have been in publishing, and you've got to
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: explain why something's going to be hot to them, which
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: you know, lightly specula feels good.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: What is the current state of the like straightforward contemporary
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: romance market, because I think that there's been a lot
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: of chatter lately from kind of all sides of publishing
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: that I've seen on threads, from agents, from editors, from
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: authors about how it's changing, And I'm curious what your
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: take is on it. As an agent, I.
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: Think it's been hard to build someone to compete with
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: the existing contemporary queens. Right I would think of a
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: contemporary queen as like Colleen Hoover, Emily Henry, like different
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: types of writers, but people who are just writing grounded,
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: straightforward stories. There's some sort of emotional question or setup
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: that is going to be litigated over the course. You're
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: going to have some really like crazy third act something,
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: and then you're going to leave the book happy. And
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: that's a formula that everyone like loves. I'm still going
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: to read it, but it's hard to do really well.
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: So there's no room in this market anymore for like
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: shitty contemporary romance.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: Talk to me about the self pub to trad pub pipeline,
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: so self published, self published for those who don't know,
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: and trad pub is traditionally published, because I feel like
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: that has in the past few years become a big
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: trend and kind of shifted how people are looking for
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: books where it's less looking for something that's going through
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: the traditional pipeline like I did of like, let me
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: find an agent, work on the premise with an agent,
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: the agent then sends the book to an editor and
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: finding these existing works that are popping off on like
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: a KU or in some cases like the fan fiction
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: to trad pub pipeline, like what's that trend looking like
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: Now it's had a.
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: Really big moment and there's been a lot of AO
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: three and what pad discovery, I mean watpad discovery has
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: been big since Ana Todd, right, So there's a lot
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: of people and I should mention Christina Warrant, but there's
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: a lot of that out there, and I think agents
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: and certain agents and some of us are like watching forums,
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: seeing recommendations on Instagram, seeing what's happening on Reddit, and
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: it's fun and it's exciting and it's a chase, but
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: it's also like, as an agent, I don't want to
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: have four self published to traditional pipeline projects out because
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: then it's very limiting. It feels like it's the only
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: thing that I can do or the only thing that
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: I want to represent. And often it's like something that
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: you haven't edited, so you're just turning around a manuscript
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: and you're saying, here it is. But there's also some
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: really fun AO three projects for people who don't know
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: AO three is Archives of our Own. There's some fun
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: projects where people totally they pull down their work, they
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: change it, they rewrite it, or they're like lightly inspired
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: by something they wrote when they were seventeen, but now
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: they're twenty six and they're re visiting it or even later.
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: You know, that is fun and cool, and if you
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: come with a platform, great, I think that can be
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: really helpful. But it's also to me becoming a little
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: apparent that publishers are excited by it, but they're a
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: little wary of it because so much of it's coming
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: out of the space. And then there's the backlash out
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: fandom and whose fandoms you're borrowing from that. I mean,
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: I think all of it's a little unfair.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: What holes are there in the market right now that
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: either you're looking for from an agent perspective or that
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: you know editors are looking for. Right now, I'm hearing
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: a lot of like bring me some dark stuff, okay,
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: or dystopian like true fantasy that still has romantic elements.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: I think everyone's like, bring me a sapphic this or that,
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: or like more male mail, which I love, that's great.
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: I'm currently looking for like a saphic gymnastics romance. Hell yah,
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: hell yeah, someone write me that, Like what's the new
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: sport we're going to go crazy over that can still
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: feel accessible in the way that hockey is accessible, or
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: football is accessible, like women's sports are an exciting place
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: to play. It's hard because like I read things and
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: I'm like, this is fine, it's passable, But like when
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: I start line editing from the first sentence, like a
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: lot of people send out queries and their first fifteen
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: pages are not tight. They're not locked in, and it
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: makes me sad.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: Something that I sort of knew in a conceptual way
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: but was not fully aware of till I got in
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: it was how slow publishing is, you know, safe to
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: say on average, trends that are happening now on the
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: back end aren't going to be seen on the consumer
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: end for like two years. So what trends are happening
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: now behind the scenes that you're seeing that will be
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: on shelves to a year and a half two years
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: from now.
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: Oh interesting, I feel like the pit fan fiction. Yeah,
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: so there's going to be some arise in medical dramas.
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: Maybe I'm hearing Mermaids are coming back excellent. Yeah, I
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: think there's a cycle of climate fiction and you know,
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: issues driven current events like chang what we're seeing. I
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: feel like people are looking for a little bit more
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: buddy comedy stuff like there's been so much enemies to lovers,
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: Like maybe people are looking for friends to lovers in
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: a bit more of a like a breath of fresh airway.
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: But I think in the next few years we're gonna
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: see a lot of AO three launches and a lot
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: of science fantasy with romance and actually some lit RPG.
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: I should say I would love to see historical having
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: a moment and coming back. Yeah, I think historical plus
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: could be a thing, But I think that's been really
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: hard for the last couple of years.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: Which is interesting because I would have assumed the Bridgerton
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: thing would have been a bigger push.
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: I think Bridgerton lifted Bridgerton and it didn't really lift
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: much else.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: Last question, what are you most excited about right now?
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: Like if something comes into your inbox, what's the thing
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: that you're like, Oh, this is this is doing it
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: for me.
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: It just has to be like creative comps or a
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: fun mashup of like Gossip Girl meets my best Friend's
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: wedding with a ghost, like you're using a cultural touch
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: point with an awesome movie with a ghost, or like
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: you could use a book and a movie and a
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: song and a show and I think those things are
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: really resonating, at least for me. And that also plays
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: a part in like who is the person you're reaching
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: out to to see if they want to read your book?
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: Are they as twenty seven year old agents, or are
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: they like what generation are they in? What are their
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: cultural touch points? Like I would love to see clueless.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: In a romance? Ugh, me too.
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: How do we go back to the Alicia Silverstone vibes
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: and the cute outfits? Like I'm nostalgic for my own
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: childhood in the nineties, So that's a perfect point for
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: someone to be like, guess what, Ariel, I've got a
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: nineties Timeslip rom com for you.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: Feed it to me.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know that I love to come up
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: with new ideas instead of working on the stuff that
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: I already have. So I'd say that I would pitch
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: you that, but I know that you would be like, actually,
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: can you just start working on the other book that
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: you need to.
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: You have to write a whole other book, so we're gonna.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: We're gonna cut me off. So somebody else should pitch
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: this to Ariel, That's what I'm hearing. Yeah, yeah, and
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: someone else who's like read a book before not just
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: wanted to write one. Yeah, Ariel, thank you so much
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: for coming on today. Of course, thank you for having me.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: I always love talking to you. I loved that conversation
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: with Ariel. I love every conversation with Ariel, which is
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: good because I talked to her like five times a
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: day because again, she is my agent. But I feel
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: like I learned so much about what could be coming
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: in the romance pipeline, like what trends we could be
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: seeing in the next couple of years, which makes me
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: feel like I've got a really good inside scoop. Speaking
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: of trends and inside scoops, sanch it's Q three.
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: It is indeede Q three.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: I look that up. We made sure we were right.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: And because it's Q three, I feel like it's time
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: for us to nominate a new internet boyfriend. It is
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: because you surprised me so thoroughly last time. I am
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: gonna make you go first so that we can get
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: that out of the way, so you can just blow
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: my pick out of the way immediately.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: But go ahead, don't worry about it.
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: Today. I think I'm in the same possession you were
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: in last time, where I'm going to pitch someone who
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: I'm like, I want this to become an internet boyfriend,
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: Like he is making waves if you know, you know
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: situation at this time, but I would like for him
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: to make it big. I hope this man is booked
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: and busy for the foreseeable future. I am, of course,
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: referring to Donald Finn, who played mister Hayward in the
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: Other Bennett's Sister, and he has also recently played Moriarty
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: in the Young Sherlock series. He is also famously the
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: Irish orpheus in West End's Hadestown, which means he's musically gifted.
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: He's a yearner, he's so skilled, he's such a good actor,
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: and I think he's so charming. But the biggest reason
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: why I immediately was like this is my Q three
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: pick is because there is an epidemic of overly perfect,
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: curated Hollywood faces.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: And I'm sick of them.
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: He's really genuinely interesting features. He's so expressive, and in
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: his role as Moriarty, he plays like kind of a
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: sociopath obviously because Moriarty is a sociopath, and Donaldan's like
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: flexibility between playing that kind of role and playing this
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: like tender earnest warm, loving man in mister Hayward is
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: so good.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: It's so, so, so good.
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: And that's why he's my pitch, because I think he's
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: beautiful and gifted and so talented in a way that
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: I'm like, we are going to see so much more
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: of him in upcoming years. And also I very badly
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: want him to play Connor in an adaptation of problematic
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: Summer Romance. I don't know if that's happening, but this
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: is me putting it into the universe.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: I'm looking at the photo and I see the vision.
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: I really feel very strongly.
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: I feel very strongly about this.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: This is not the first time you've pitched him to me. Specifically,
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: I get it, Like I'm looking and I get it.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: I like an interesting feature. There's like a kind of
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: pretty that's too pretty, like that it does nothing for me, right.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: I like a little interest. I like a little a
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: little extra something happening on your face.
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: You are not so esthetically smoothed as to be inoffensive
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: and uninteresting.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, yeah, there is something that.
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: Compels that I think is really boyfriend material in an
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: Irish accent.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: Look, I'm a human woman on this earth. I love
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: an Irish accent.
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: What am I?
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: Well, what else am I going to do but be charmed?
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: Lots of great Internet Boyfriend material.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: Coming out of Ireland.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: In my thank You Killian Murphy, I would agree Paul
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: Meskal like, mm hmm. I'm a big fan of what's
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: what they're doing over there.
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: I'm a huge fan of Ireland's work. Who's your pick?
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: I today have brought as Q three Internet Boyfriend pick
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: New York City Marizon.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: Mom, Donnie, that's so good. No, that's so good.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's all the obvious reasons, which is that I
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: think he's an amazing mirror and everything that he's doing
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: for the city so.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: Far is great.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you saw really recently, but there
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: was a TikTok post by a man who was outside
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: the Brooklyn Museum and he is filming the steps of
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: the Brooklyn Museum and he's like, Zora, Mom, Donnie, I
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: need you to fix this.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: Do you see this? Do you see what's here? Do
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: you see what's missing? My man?
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: My man is supposed to be waiting for me for
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: a date on the steps of the Brooklyn Museum. Fix this,
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: And Zora mam Donnie's account commented, I got you, and
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: now they have planned a week of meet cute opportunities
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: in all five boroughs, including at the Brooklyn Museum. Time
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: that is like one of first of all, one of
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: the best, like taking an opportunity by the horns and
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: like grabbing it and wielding it.
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: But isn't that so like that's so cute, I'm so charmed,
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: I'm so you really like you really need to look
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: at to it. So they planned as part of Summer
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: in New York City programming, there is an event in
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: Manhattan that is date Night at the met like a
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: fully like just come show up and like meet a
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: date night situation, a paint studio situation in Queens in
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: the Bronx They're doing when.
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: Is this happening? Let me clear my schedule.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: I feel like also the thing that makes him Internet
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: boyfriend is the amount of times that I see.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: People who don't even live in the United States.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: Asking mom Donnie to fix thakes like, but the idea
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: that you could ask your mayor like I don't have
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: a man to take on a date to the Brooklyn
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: Museum and he's like, we'll fix that for you. We
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: can fix that for you. You know what this energetically
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: gives me.
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: It's like first boyfriend of a friend in your group
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: of closest girlfriends, and how that man does end up
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: sometimes taking on the role of like air and person.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like drives you home from a.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: Night out, picture from the airport, sometimes from the airport like.
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: He is so handy. He will help you assemble that bookshelf.
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: You will make very little conversation, You will know very
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: little about each other, but he will be immensely useful
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: in your life and a really pleasant figure to.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: Have around exactly.
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: It's also that he and his wife are really sweet,
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: and the way they talk about their own love story
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: is really lovely.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: They are really sweet. So yes, that is my pick
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: for Q three Internet Boyfriend.
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: I think your pick between the two of these makes
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: more sense as the Internet's boyfriend too, because, like the
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: mass appeal of Merrimum, Donniett feels very collective. Internet Boyfriend.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, do we declara winner? I mean there should be
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: declared winner.
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: I think you should be declared winner for sure.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: But watch this space.
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: In terms of Donald.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: Finn Clo, fully I am joining your campaign.
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: I will in exchange for the win, I will join
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: your campaign. Thank you, and then we'll check back in
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: in Q four which will know when that is when
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: we google.
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: It exactly exactly and you know what, that's the show.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: That's a show.
• 29:06
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