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Andy Stanley - The Space Between Us A Conversation on Politics and Religion with Sarah Anderson · Andy Stanley Sermons

0:00
Speaker 1: Hi, everybody. Thank you so much for tuning in. It's
0:02
Speaker 1: been quite a week. Actually, it's been quite a year,
0:05
Speaker 1: hasn't it, which makes today's special guest even more special.
0:09
Speaker 1: Sixteen years ago, Sandra and I and our kids were
0:11
Speaker 1: vacationing at a guest ranch just outside the northern entrance
0:15
Speaker 1: to Yellowstone National Park and the rants. The way it
0:17
Speaker 1: was set up, there was a big dining hall and
0:19
Speaker 1: everybody ate together family style, And while we were there,
0:23
Speaker 1: we had several conversations with one of the serving staff,
0:25
Speaker 1: and we were so impressed with her. I did something
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Speaker 1: I've never done before and I have never done since.
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Speaker 1: I asked her if she would be interested in working
0:33
Speaker 1: for us back in Atlanta. She said sure, So I
0:37
Speaker 1: got her contact information, and when I got back home,
0:39
Speaker 1: I asked the director of our children's environments to reach
0:42
Speaker 1: out and to begin the interview process. Long story short,
0:45
Speaker 1: we hired her, and today you get the opportunity to
0:48
Speaker 1: meet her, and you will understand immediately why we were
0:52
Speaker 1: so impressed with Sarah. Sarah Anderson grew up in a
0:55
Speaker 1: very politically connected and politically involved family. I'll let her
0:59
Speaker 1: tell you more about that just a minute.
1:01
Speaker 2: She worked for US for two years.
1:02
Speaker 1: Currently, she works for Orange, creating content for high school
1:05
Speaker 1: students and leaders all over the country. During the season
1:09
Speaker 1: that she worked with US, she met her future husband,
1:11
Speaker 1: Rodney Anderson. Sarah and Rodney have two sons, Asher and Pace.
1:15
Speaker 1: Rodney currently actually serves on our staff as the founder
1:17
Speaker 1: and director of Canopy. But my reason for introducing you
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Speaker 1: to Sarah on this particular weekend is she recently authored
1:24
Speaker 1: a book entitled The Space between Us, and the subtitle
1:28
Speaker 1: says it all how Jesus teaches us to live together
1:32
Speaker 1: when politics and religion pull us apart.
1:34
Speaker 2: How appropriate.
1:35
Speaker 1: But before I introduce you to Sarah, there's something I
1:38
Speaker 1: need you to keep in mind. I wanted to show
1:41
Speaker 1: this interview as soon after the election as possible, which
1:43
Speaker 1: means we recorded this interview the week before the election.
1:47
Speaker 1: So while we're discussing her book, we have no idea
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Speaker 1: who won. In fact, we have no idea if anyone
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Speaker 1: has won yet. So if you'll please extend us a
1:56
Speaker 1: little bit of grace if we say anything that seems
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Speaker 1: out of kilt her with political reality. And now here's
2:02
Speaker 1: my conversation with Sarah Anderson. So everybody's curious, tell us
2:12
Speaker 1: about your family, where you grew up, and how your
2:15
Speaker 1: family became so entwined with all things political.
2:19
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I was born and raised in northern Virginia,
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Speaker 3: just outside Washington, DC, and both of my parents moved
2:24
Speaker 3: to DC just after graduating college. They met there in
2:28
Speaker 3: the seventies working for the Republican National Committee. We call
2:31
Speaker 3: them a political fairy tale. So they got married and
2:34
Speaker 3: my mom ended up working for a congresswoman from Massachusetts
2:37
Speaker 3: until my younger brother was born, and then my dad
2:40
Speaker 3: volunteered for the Reagan campaign and then when Reagan was elected,
2:44
Speaker 3: worked as Undersecretary of Education and then Chief Domestic Policy
2:47
Speaker 3: Advisor to the President. So we were just involved in
2:50
Speaker 3: all things political. During my dad's working for Reagan, we
2:54
Speaker 3: got to actually meet the president at one point, which
2:56
Speaker 3: is kind of this running joke in my family that
2:59
Speaker 3: we went to school. My mom checked us out early
3:01
Speaker 3: and we had a back of clothes so that we
3:02
Speaker 3: were supposed to change.
3:03
Speaker 2: How old were you?
3:03
Speaker 3: I was eight at the time, so had my fancy
3:07
Speaker 3: clothes changing in the car, pull up to the White
3:09
Speaker 3: House and realized I forgot my dress shoes. So in
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Speaker 3: our official White House portrait with Ronald Reagan. Everyone's looking
3:15
Speaker 3: their best and I have on white high tops in
3:17
Speaker 3: hot pink places, so didn't go so well perfect. Yes, yeah,
3:22
Speaker 3: so that was just kind of kind of my experience
3:24
Speaker 3: growing up. We were just involved in all things political
3:26
Speaker 3: and patriotic, and we loved it. It was kind of
3:29
Speaker 3: just the air that we breathed as a family.
3:32
Speaker 1: And then in nineteen ninety nine, correct, something happened that
3:36
Speaker 1: sort of elevated all of that.
3:38
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. In April nineteen ninety nine, the day actually
3:41
Speaker 3: after Columbien happened, my dad publicly announced that he was
3:45
Speaker 3: running for president himself. So he threw his hat into
3:48
Speaker 3: the political arena for the Republican nomination, and he spent
3:52
Speaker 3: the next year just kind of campaigning. We were able
3:54
Speaker 3: to join him on a lot of those things, doing
3:56
Speaker 3: things like the Iowa State Fair and the Iowa Straw
3:59
Speaker 3: Pole and all kinds of just campaigning events and just
4:02
Speaker 3: kind of thrust us into the political spotlight in a
4:05
Speaker 3: way that we hadn't been before, like big time, big time.
4:09
Speaker 1: Yeah.
4:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I family, yes, everybody, and my sister had
4:12
Speaker 3: just graduated from college with a political science degree, so
4:14
Speaker 3: she was working on the campaign. My brother was in
4:17
Speaker 3: middle school and thought this was the coolest thing ever
4:20
Speaker 3: loved it. I was probably the only one in the
4:21
Speaker 3: family that had some more reservations. I think part of
4:24
Speaker 3: that was being a senior in high school and wanting
4:26
Speaker 3: it to be all about me at that point, but
4:28
Speaker 3: also there was just there's a tension in DC that
4:32
Speaker 3: everybody knows that from observing DC that it's a very
4:34
Speaker 3: tribal town. Right You've got the Republicans and Democrats, and
4:37
Speaker 3: there's a lot of animosity between the two. It's you know,
4:39
Speaker 3: right wrong, good bad, very team oriented. But the thing
4:43
Speaker 3: about the primary season that really stuck out to me
4:46
Speaker 3: was that the conflict was in House, right. It was
4:49
Speaker 3: Republicans against other Republicans, and so it took people that
4:53
Speaker 3: you would normally see as teammates, people that you'd normally
4:55
Speaker 3: be linking arms with, and turn them into adversaries over
4:58
Speaker 3: within the parties in the party, and that just kind
5:02
Speaker 3: of rubbed me the wrong way, and it really showed
5:03
Speaker 3: me how easily we other one another, that we create
5:07
Speaker 3: these divisions that separate us out from one another. So
5:11
Speaker 3: I think that that experience it really bothered me and
5:14
Speaker 3: I didn't want to move back to DC after that
5:16
Speaker 3: kind of oh really that me away?
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Speaker 1: Well, you probably saw people who were your parents considered
5:21
Speaker 1: friends and suddenly they're not speaking to each other, or
5:25
Speaker 1: they're going the other way or no.
5:26
Speaker 3: Political endorsement was part of it, but there was also
5:29
Speaker 3: the sense that if you weren't going to politically endorse someone,
5:32
Speaker 3: that you also had to distance yourself relationally, and that
5:34
Speaker 3: was just a very lonely time. So you're you're over
5:37
Speaker 3: exposed on the public front, but then you feel incredibly
5:40
Speaker 3: lonely behind the scenes. Wow.
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Speaker 1: Did that affect you personally in terms of your own
5:44
Speaker 1: friendships or was this mainly your parents?
5:46
Speaker 3: Probably I experienced it through my parents, so I didn't
5:50
Speaker 3: really affect my friendships as much. For me, I started
5:53
Speaker 3: my college career during that time, so I went to
5:57
Speaker 3: college with my dad running. The weirdest thing for me
5:59
Speaker 3: was seeing people wear Power for President T shirts at
6:01
Speaker 3: my college campus and not knowing if they were. That
6:05
Speaker 3: was strange on that regard, but the more painful part
6:08
Speaker 3: was probably experienced more for my parents.
6:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, so did you wear the Bower for President T shirt?
6:12
Speaker 2: You didn't.
6:12
Speaker 3: No. I was actively opposed to participating at that point,
6:17
Speaker 3: mostly because I wanted to kind of find my own
6:20
Speaker 3: way at college. So yeah, they would do. They would
6:22
Speaker 3: take care vans to DC from my college and attend rallies.
6:26
Speaker 3: And I was like, lessings, I will not go there.
6:28
Speaker 1: Done that.
6:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, not a part of it.
6:30
Speaker 1: Well, this is such an important part of your story
6:33
Speaker 1: and leads to why you wrote the book, because the
6:35
Speaker 1: division when the average person like me thinks about the
6:39
Speaker 1: division in terms of political division, we see it again
6:41
Speaker 1: party to party, and what you saw as an insider
6:45
Speaker 1: was something insidious, maybe too strong of a term, but again,
6:50
Speaker 1: suddenly friendships are no longer friendships, and what was comfortable
6:53
Speaker 1: is suddenly uncomfortable. And I would guess you tell me
6:56
Speaker 1: even in the aftermath, just newsflash, your father did not
7:00
Speaker 1: That's right, he did not win.
7:01
Speaker 3: George W. Familiar.
7:03
Speaker 1: You didn't miss anything in the world in American history,
7:07
Speaker 1: after the fact, does do people come back together or
7:10
Speaker 1: is it left over?
7:12
Speaker 3: I think there's a sense that the convention is supposed
7:15
Speaker 3: to make everybody circle back around again.
7:17
Speaker 2: That's what it looks like.
7:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, that you found your person, and now we just
7:20
Speaker 3: rally the truths.
7:21
Speaker 2: We forget all those nasty things that were said.
7:22
Speaker 3: About my father, right, right. I did not get over
7:26
Speaker 3: that as easily. I think that's part of the political
7:29
Speaker 3: game that you play, that you're supposed to be able
7:31
Speaker 3: to say these things and recover and everybody move forward
7:33
Speaker 3: for the best thing for the party. But personally it
7:36
Speaker 3: didn't feel right to me.
7:38
Speaker 2: Well, these are people, you forget that.
7:41
Speaker 1: So all of that experience eventually led you to write
7:44
Speaker 1: this book and kind of a it's not a fun fact,
7:48
Speaker 1: it's just a fact fact. You had a hard time
7:50
Speaker 1: finding a publisher. So that's part of this journey, and
7:54
Speaker 1: it's actually kind of the theme of the book. So
7:56
Speaker 1: tell a little bit about the story of trying to
7:58
Speaker 1: get this fabulous book published.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, there are a couple of things that led
8:03
Speaker 3: to the writing of it. As happens, I think in
8:06
Speaker 3: a lot of families, as kids grow up, they don't
8:08
Speaker 3: always necessarily land on the same page with their family
8:11
Speaker 3: any more politically, and we experienced that a little bit
8:13
Speaker 3: in my family that as we got older, we were
8:15
Speaker 3: kind of diverging in some of our views, and where
8:18
Speaker 3: a lot of families have the option of just saying,
8:20
Speaker 3: you know what, politics and religion are too contentious, We're
8:22
Speaker 3: just not going to talk about it when we're together.
8:24
Speaker 3: Literally everyone in my family makes a living off of
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Speaker 3: politics and religion, so we could not afford to not
8:30
Speaker 3: talk about it.
8:30
Speaker 2: What else are we going to talk about?
8:31
Speaker 3: Right? This is it, This is all we know.
8:33
Speaker 2: If you talk about work, you're back in politics.
8:35
Speaker 3: So we had to figure out a way not just
8:37
Speaker 3: around these topics, but through them in a healthy way.
8:40
Speaker 3: And so I wanted to write to kind of share
8:42
Speaker 3: how we started to navigate this. But the point wasn't
8:45
Speaker 3: so much the sides that we landed on. It was
8:47
Speaker 3: more about how to honor the beliefs that we hold,
8:50
Speaker 3: but also honor the relationships with the people who don't
8:53
Speaker 3: hold those beliefs. So, yeah, I had a hard time
8:54
Speaker 3: finding a publisher. I had an agent that was pitching
8:57
Speaker 3: it to different people and different publishers, and the overwhelming
9:00
Speaker 3: feedback was it was not conservative enough for conservatives and
9:03
Speaker 3: it wasn't liberal enough for liberals. And that's disappointing on
9:07
Speaker 3: multiple levels if you're trying to get a book published.
9:09
Speaker 3: But to me, it really sent the message that people
9:12
Speaker 3: were assuming that we only wanted to stay in our lane,
9:15
Speaker 3: that we did not want to be challenged, and how
9:17
Speaker 3: we thought that we wanted to be told that what
9:19
Speaker 3: we believe is right and that the people on the
9:21
Speaker 3: other side are wrong. And I wanted to present a
9:23
Speaker 3: different way, that there was a way to honor the
9:26
Speaker 3: relationships between each other, that there are people who are
9:29
Speaker 3: willing to step out of their lane and get uncomfortable,
9:32
Speaker 3: that there might be something for them to learn, that
9:34
Speaker 3: they're okay with being challenged, and that they're not okay
9:37
Speaker 3: with relationships that are feeling damaged in light of the
9:40
Speaker 3: political conversation.
9:41
Speaker 1: And again, when you say that everybody agrees that shouldn't happen,
9:45
Speaker 1: and then we finish a conversation like that and we
9:48
Speaker 1: all go back to our tribe and engage in that
9:51
Speaker 1: conversation that's oftentimes not helpful. In the book, I wanted
9:55
Speaker 1: to read your book to you for second and let
9:58
Speaker 1: you comment on this, because this was so good.
10:00
Speaker 2: All of it is so good.
10:01
Speaker 1: You challenge us to challenge a reader to abandon a
10:05
Speaker 1: typical question that I think we all ask, sometimes out loud,
10:09
Speaker 1: but certainly subconsciously. We've been asking, how do I get
10:12
Speaker 1: other people to change their minds, to see as I do,
10:16
Speaker 1: to come to my side and to be like me,
10:18
Speaker 1: and every parent who's watching their kids move in a
10:21
Speaker 1: different direction religiously or politically.
10:24
Speaker 2: That's kind of the question.
10:25
Speaker 1: But what if instead we started asking how can we
10:28
Speaker 1: begin to close the space between us? Which is the
10:31
Speaker 1: title of the book, the space between Us? Then you said,
10:33
Speaker 1: what if instead of trying to make us the same,
10:36
Speaker 1: we got better at understanding and.
10:38
Speaker 2: Appreciating where we are different.
10:40
Speaker 1: What if we learn to practice compassion instead of judgment.
10:45
Speaker 2: Which, again, when you hear something like that, you think.
10:48
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, why is this so hard? I mean, on
10:52
Speaker 1: one hand, it seems so simple, almost simplistic, simple in
10:56
Speaker 1: the sense that, yeah, we should do that, simplistic and
10:59
Speaker 1: oh no, it's more common implicated.
11:00
Speaker 3: In that, so just unpacked that it sounds a little Pollyanna.
11:03
Speaker 3: I realize that. But I think the problem with asking
11:06
Speaker 3: the question is why can't you change your mind? The
11:07
Speaker 3: problem with that is, assuming we have the power to
11:10
Speaker 3: change somebody's mind. I think a lot of us have
11:12
Speaker 3: discovered we actually can't do that. That that's something that
11:15
Speaker 3: will lead to frustration every single time. So part of
11:17
Speaker 3: it is just a practical thing. We don't want to
11:19
Speaker 3: ask that question, and we don't want to make that
11:20
Speaker 3: our motive because I don't think we have the power
11:22
Speaker 3: to do it. I think the other problem is when
11:25
Speaker 3: we're asking the question why can't you be more like me,
11:27
Speaker 3: we're making the assumption that we're always right and the
11:30
Speaker 3: other person is always wrong, and that creates a different
11:33
Speaker 3: posture and how we engage in conversation. Right, if I'm
11:36
Speaker 3: trying to convince you of something, I'm going to be
11:38
Speaker 3: much more aggressive and much more arrogant.
11:40
Speaker 2: And how I approach you, you'll probably overstate your case.
11:43
Speaker 2: That's all I do that.
11:43
Speaker 3: Yes, I do right right, But if I'm approaching it
11:46
Speaker 3: is how can I understand you? That puts me in
11:48
Speaker 3: the posture of humility and being a learner from your
11:51
Speaker 3: experiences and your ideas. And I think it's also saying
11:54
Speaker 3: that that not every different idea from ours is bad,
11:58
Speaker 3: or there's not necessarily in every political issue are right
12:01
Speaker 3: and or wrong, that there's complications on both sides, And
12:04
Speaker 3: I think we just need to be careful that we're
12:05
Speaker 3: not making the assumption that different equals bad when it
12:08
Speaker 3: comes to our political positions.
12:09
Speaker 2: Big idea, I think.
12:10
Speaker 3: That you know, it should also be said there are
12:13
Speaker 3: bad ideas and there are harmful ideas. And evil things
12:15
Speaker 3: that can be done. That's not discounting that, but I
12:18
Speaker 3: think we've gotten into a habit of assuming that every
12:21
Speaker 3: different opinion from ours is wrong and we need to change.
12:24
Speaker 1: I when I read that part of the book, the
12:26
Speaker 1: thing that struck me that I wrote my notes is
12:30
Speaker 1: when I'm trying to do this, when I'm like, Okay,
12:33
Speaker 1: I'm going to get this right.
12:34
Speaker 2: I'm not going to argue.
12:35
Speaker 1: I'm going to lean in. I'm going to try to
12:36
Speaker 1: be curious. I'm going to be a student, not a critic.
12:38
Speaker 1: Like we talk about, I feel like I feel like
12:41
Speaker 1: I'm giving something up, yeah, or I'm being asked or
12:44
Speaker 1: expected to give something up. And none of us want
12:47
Speaker 1: to give something up because if we're holding it, it's
12:49
Speaker 1: because you know, we're convinced it's true. So what what
12:53
Speaker 1: do you say to the person that's like, but I'm
12:55
Speaker 1: almost afraid, And we would never acknowledge we're afraid, but
12:58
Speaker 1: there's some fear afraid that if I lean in that direction,
13:01
Speaker 1: I'm going to lose something or give something up.
13:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we might lose something, but I think
13:07
Speaker 3: we're gaining relational equity and influence with somebody when we
13:10
Speaker 3: approach a conversation that way. So I think it's changing
13:14
Speaker 3: our motives and our objective from wanting to make a point.
13:16
Speaker 3: And you talk about this all the time. Do we
13:18
Speaker 3: want to make a point or do we want to
13:19
Speaker 3: make a difference? So people can discover where we land
13:22
Speaker 3: on political issues very easily, but it's much harder for
13:25
Speaker 3: them to be convinced of our care for somebody and
13:27
Speaker 3: our compassion for them. So I would lean in the
13:30
Speaker 3: relational influence direction over the political standing.
13:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm going to lose influence the moment I
13:35
Speaker 1: say there's a wall and you know you're wrong. Now
13:39
Speaker 1: this is super sensitive, but you have a funny story
13:41
Speaker 1: connected to this.
13:42
Speaker 2: I'm going to bring it up anyway.
13:44
Speaker 1: All of us, I mean, I'll acknowledge this, all of us,
13:46
Speaker 1: and you grew up with this, have a tendency to
13:48
Speaker 1: assume that if Jesus were walking the earth, well, of
13:52
Speaker 1: course he would be a democrat. No, if Jesus was
13:55
Speaker 1: walking on flander, of course he would be a Republican.
13:58
Speaker 1: And we all want, especially you know, Jesus followers, And
14:03
Speaker 1: I understand this because I want to be aligned with Jesus.
14:06
Speaker 1: But I want to be aligned with my political party.
14:10
Speaker 1: You had an interesting kind of aha moment. I guess
14:12
Speaker 1: it was in college. The poster on the yes Bolton
14:15
Speaker 1: board tell us about it. Yeah.
14:16
Speaker 3: So I went to a very small conservative Christian college.
14:19
Speaker 3: I would say probably ninety to ninety five percent of
14:22
Speaker 3: everybody there was, like me, white, evangelical Republican. So I
14:26
Speaker 3: was leaving a dorm on the other side of campus
14:28
Speaker 3: and saw a poster in the stairwell that was an
14:30
Speaker 3: advertisement for the Young Democrats Club. And this was shocking
14:34
Speaker 3: to me. I did not know we had Democrats. I
14:36
Speaker 3: wanted like names and numbers. Who were these people on
14:38
Speaker 3: your campus and our campus?
14:39
Speaker 2: Yes?
14:39
Speaker 3: And I was surprised that that was an actual thing.
14:43
Speaker 3: But then what was more surprising was what it said
14:45
Speaker 3: underneath the time and location for the meeting. It said,
14:48
Speaker 3: Jesus loves Democrats too, and was, you know, tongue in cheek,
14:51
Speaker 3: and I'm like, that's funny, but he probably likes Republicans more.
14:53
Speaker 3: I mean, this is what's going through my head that
14:56
Speaker 3: this is what I so closely associated my faith and
14:58
Speaker 3: my politics. They were inner changeable to me. So it
15:02
Speaker 3: kind of just created this crack in my worldview a
15:04
Speaker 3: little bit that maybe Jesus didn't operate in the box
15:08
Speaker 3: that I put him in, that maybe he was bigger
15:09
Speaker 3: than that. And you know, you talk about this all
15:11
Speaker 3: the time. It's just so dangerous when we assume that
15:15
Speaker 3: Jesus is on our team, because as soon as we
15:17
Speaker 3: think we've cornered the market on Jesus, that allows us
15:20
Speaker 3: to get away with a lot of bad treatment and
15:22
Speaker 3: bad behavior towards people on the other side.
15:24
Speaker 2: And that's true for both sides.
15:25
Speaker 3: That's right, yes, no matter what we're doing. So and
15:27
Speaker 3: the more I kind of just dug into that idea
15:30
Speaker 3: of maybe Jesus was bigger than what I thought. I
15:32
Speaker 3: discovered it in the Gospels over and over again that
15:35
Speaker 3: he was constantly disrupting these ideas that people had of him.
15:39
Speaker 3: I read a commentary on this one particular encounter he
15:43
Speaker 3: had in Luke and it tells the story of Jesus
15:46
Speaker 3: heading towards Jericho and there's a blind man on the
15:49
Speaker 3: side of the road who calls out to him to
15:50
Speaker 3: be healed, and he heals them, and it says the
15:52
Speaker 3: crowd goes wild, like the praise God. They're super excited
15:55
Speaker 3: because this wasn't just about this one man being healed.
15:58
Speaker 3: It was Jesus stepping in and doing something for the
16:01
Speaker 3: oppressed and for the marginalized and reaching out to people
16:04
Speaker 3: that the government and the religious systems had overlooked. So
16:06
Speaker 3: the crowd loves it, like what's not to love. But
16:09
Speaker 3: then immediately after that, it has Jesus going into Jericho again.
16:13
Speaker 3: There's crowds on the side of the street, but this
16:15
Speaker 3: time there's a man who's intentionally trying to not get
16:17
Speaker 3: Jesus's attention, and it's a tax collector Namedsachias, and he's
16:21
Speaker 3: trying to stay away from Jesus, and instead Jesus calls
16:25
Speaker 3: out to him and says, I want to have dinner
16:27
Speaker 3: at your house. And this shook people because Zikias is
16:30
Speaker 3: part of the oppressive government and systems. He's part of
16:34
Speaker 3: keeping the underdog down. He's part of creating the problems
16:37
Speaker 3: that these marginalized people are living, and he's working for
16:39
Speaker 3: the Roman government. And Jesus invites himself over for dinner
16:43
Speaker 3: and it says I never noticed this before, but it
16:45
Speaker 3: says the crowd grumbled, and it was like two thousand
16:49
Speaker 3: years ago. Jesus has been doing exactly what he's doing
16:52
Speaker 3: right now he's disrupting the categories we put on, and
16:54
Speaker 3: he's doing things that make us feel uncomfortable with where
16:57
Speaker 3: we land, and he's making us constantly question and are
17:00
Speaker 3: we following him or are we following an idolized version
17:03
Speaker 3: of ourselves? Because it's really easy to believe that we
17:07
Speaker 3: are following Jesus and being conformed to his image. But
17:10
Speaker 3: if everything we're doing we think Jesus supports, then it's
17:13
Speaker 3: possible that we're conforming him into.
17:14
Speaker 2: It's very possible. And the other thing about that story,
17:17
Speaker 2: and I.
17:18
Speaker 1: Didn't think about this until you added your interesting insight,
17:22
Speaker 1: is that because Jesus pursued a relationship with Zachieus, what
17:27
Speaker 1: did Zacheus then.
17:28
Speaker 3: Do change his behavior?
17:29
Speaker 1: He became more generous, he became more like Jesus because
17:34
Speaker 1: and that's the invitation that's been extended to everyone.
17:39
Speaker 2: And that's what we talk about all the time.
17:41
Speaker 1: When we're willing to be neutral enough and if we're
17:46
Speaker 1: willing to respond to the invitation of Jesus, we always
17:50
Speaker 1: move in a better direction, and we always move in
17:52
Speaker 1: the direction of others. And we gained the proper filter
17:56
Speaker 1: for our own personal politics. And it's not about abandoning
17:59
Speaker 1: in a a party. And I think that's one of
18:02
Speaker 1: the important things about this book. This isn't hey, you're
18:05
Speaker 1: wrong moving my direction, it's the opposite of that.
18:08
Speaker 2: The point is to move together.
18:09
Speaker 1: And as we say all the time, the problems are
18:12
Speaker 1: solved in the middle. Problems are never solved in the extreme.
18:14
Speaker 1: You can't solve a problem in the extreme because you're
18:17
Speaker 1: you're never going to be close enough to how the
18:19
Speaker 1: other person's experiencing the problem. You write a little bit
18:22
Speaker 1: in one chapter about conflict, and I wrote, I pulled
18:26
Speaker 1: this out of the book. It's when we avoid conflict
18:29
Speaker 1: and handle it poorly that conflict becomes the enemy. And
18:33
Speaker 1: you make the point that conflict is not really the enemy.
18:36
Speaker 1: Conflict is something that can have a good result if
18:38
Speaker 1: we approach conflict correctly.
18:41
Speaker 2: Talk a little bit about that.
18:42
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think conflict makes a lot of us uncomfortable.
18:45
Speaker 3: And I think that's kind of how we ended up
18:46
Speaker 3: getting here, that we had conflict around politics and religion,
18:50
Speaker 3: and it made us so uncomfortable that we stopped talking
18:52
Speaker 3: about it. And civil discourse is like a muscle at
18:55
Speaker 3: atrophies if it's not in use. And so I think
18:57
Speaker 3: we've avoided conflict.
18:58
Speaker 2: Okay, you need to say that again. That's pretty amazing.
19:01
Speaker 3: Civil discourse is like a muscle and an atrophies if
19:04
Speaker 3: it's not in use.
19:05
Speaker 2: So we need to engage in civil discourse, Yes.
19:08
Speaker 3: To keep practicing, to keep using that part of our art.
19:11
Speaker 1: Can I make one more comment, This is such a
19:13
Speaker 1: big idea to me in the book. It's civil discourse.
19:17
Speaker 1: Some of us and I'm on the side, some of
19:19
Speaker 1: us have a hard time being civil. Others of you
19:23
Speaker 1: have a hard time engaging in the discourse. Right, that's right,
19:27
Speaker 1: but it's both. I can't use my personality or my
19:31
Speaker 1: convictions to push a person away. But at the same time,
19:34
Speaker 1: if for folks who are not comfortable in those conversations,
19:37
Speaker 1: they have to step in and force themselves to engage
19:41
Speaker 1: because it is the way forward.
19:42
Speaker 2: I interrupted you, But that's such an important Yeah.
19:45
Speaker 3: Well, I think the conflict is a good thing and
19:47
Speaker 3: multiple reasons. But I think part of it is we're
19:50
Speaker 3: not going to end up in the best ideas if
19:52
Speaker 3: there isn't somebody pushing against the idea as we bring
19:54
Speaker 3: to the table. That conflict actually leads to sharper thinking.
19:58
Speaker 3: We're critical thinking, somebody to point out our blind spots,
20:01
Speaker 3: to point out the things that we haven't necessarily thought
20:04
Speaker 3: through when it comes to ideas or bringing to the table.
20:06
Speaker 3: So it's helpful in a very practical sense. But also
20:09
Speaker 3: this is what the founders had in mind for us
20:11
Speaker 3: when they decided we should be a democracy. A democracy
20:14
Speaker 3: is nothing if not a lot of differing ideas, So
20:17
Speaker 3: we want to embrace that. They believed that this could
20:20
Speaker 3: go sideways, but they thought it was worth it. It
20:22
Speaker 3: was worth creating a country where people could bring all
20:25
Speaker 3: of the ideas together. So I'm more concerned if we
20:29
Speaker 3: are wanting to get everybody to land on the same page.
20:31
Speaker 3: I don't think we really want to live in a
20:33
Speaker 3: government or a country that has everybody towing the same
20:36
Speaker 3: political line. Conflict, to me tells me that everybody feels
20:39
Speaker 3: comfortable enough to bring their best individuality selves to the
20:42
Speaker 3: table to share their ideas. They feel safe enough to
20:45
Speaker 3: do it. They're not afraid to throw everything out there
20:48
Speaker 3: and to have a conversation around it. It doesn't always
20:51
Speaker 3: feel good, but if our goal is to create the
20:53
Speaker 3: best possible country, then it's going to involve some back
20:56
Speaker 3: and forth and some tension.
20:58
Speaker 1: So with that as a backdrop, let me see if
21:01
Speaker 1: I can ask this question in a coherent way. There
21:06
Speaker 1: there is You know, there's a lot of talk right
21:08
Speaker 1: now about how there's no unity, we're so divided, we're
21:10
Speaker 1: so divided, we're so divided. But being divided is healthy
21:15
Speaker 1: in the sense of what you just said, because if
21:18
Speaker 1: there's no division of ideas and there's no division again
21:22
Speaker 1: civil getting along and being kind, that's one thing. And
21:25
Speaker 1: we've seen even within a political context, men and women
21:29
Speaker 1: who are on opposite sides of the political argument over
21:33
Speaker 1: an issue or just in general, who then are able
21:36
Speaker 1: to go have dinner together and have their families come
21:39
Speaker 1: spend time together. But when it gets to the point
21:42
Speaker 1: to where there's not the relationship, there's just a conflict
21:46
Speaker 1: of ideas, things go south. But so there needs to
21:49
Speaker 1: be tension to eradicate. The tension basically means we probably
21:53
Speaker 1: have a dictatorship and we're just afraid to say anything
21:55
Speaker 1: that's right. So the tension is healthy, The conflict is
21:58
Speaker 1: healthy if to the point of your book, we're able
22:01
Speaker 1: to be civil in our discourse and elevate the value
22:05
Speaker 1: of relationship over our potentially flawed worldview. And our potentially
22:10
Speaker 1: flawed ideas.
22:11
Speaker 3: Yes, right, that's exactly right.
22:13
Speaker 2: So in the book another I love this distinction.
22:17
Speaker 1: You make a distinction between peace keeping, and this kind
22:20
Speaker 1: of goes to the conflict adi peacekeeping and peace making.
22:23
Speaker 3: Yeah, talk a little bit about well, I think we
22:25
Speaker 3: tend to think of pieces just the absence of conflicts,
22:27
Speaker 3: and so that definitely is more like peace keeping than
22:30
Speaker 3: peace making. And this idea really became clear to me
22:33
Speaker 3: when Rodney and I were able to take a trip
22:34
Speaker 3: to Rome, and when you go into the city, you
22:37
Speaker 3: see in one part of the city there is this
22:38
Speaker 3: arch to Augustinian Peace, and it was built to kind
22:41
Speaker 3: of commemorate this time in the Roman Empire where they
22:44
Speaker 3: were flourishing economically, they had the largest land mass, their
22:47
Speaker 3: population was huge, and was a time of relative peace,
22:49
Speaker 3: and so they built this arch to celebrate that. Then
22:52
Speaker 3: you go to another part of the city and you
22:53
Speaker 3: see the Arch of Titus, and this was built by
22:55
Speaker 3: an emperor for his brother Titus and his military victories,
22:59
Speaker 3: and carved into this the arch are images of the
23:02
Speaker 3: Roman army pillaging the temple in Jerusalem and removing the
23:07
Speaker 3: valuables in the stone stone that I think ended up
23:09
Speaker 3: being using the coliseum later in the building. But the
23:11
Speaker 3: irony in this is that this arch was commemorating an
23:14
Speaker 3: event that happened during the so called Augustinian Peace. But
23:18
Speaker 3: if you'd asked the people living in Jerusalem at the time,
23:20
Speaker 3: they would have not considered it in a time of peace.
23:22
Speaker 3: It would have been peace by submission and peace by
23:26
Speaker 3: domination of a lesser or less powerful group of people.
23:30
Speaker 3: So that's peacekeeping. It's when somebody is so powerful they
23:33
Speaker 3: can stamp out the opposition. Peacekeeping would also be just
23:36
Speaker 3: putting your head in the sand and pretending nothing's wrong,
23:39
Speaker 3: everything's fine. If we could all just get along, it'll
23:41
Speaker 3: be better. But peacemaking and what Jesus talks about in
23:44
Speaker 3: the Beatitudes. He invites us to be peacemakers because that
23:46
Speaker 3: makes us children of God. And he talks about peace
23:49
Speaker 3: with this idea of wholeness. You know, the Jewish word
23:52
Speaker 3: for peace is shalom, and it is wholeness. It's not
23:54
Speaker 3: an absence of conflict. It's the idea of bringing all
23:56
Speaker 3: the parts together to create something new. So it's not
23:59
Speaker 3: necessarily one side winning out over the other. It's saying,
24:02
Speaker 3: what can we bring that's the best of both sides
24:04
Speaker 3: and create a better way forward.
24:07
Speaker 1: And historically that is what has happened in the United
24:09
Speaker 1: States of America, right, yes, I mean we we you know,
24:13
Speaker 1: we retreat to our corners in a season like the
24:16
Speaker 1: one we've just come through. That happens every four years,
24:18
Speaker 1: right you know, some would argue more extreme this time
24:22
Speaker 1: than before.
24:23
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe not.
24:24
Speaker 1: You know, we only our memories are pretty short, you know,
24:28
Speaker 1: but but for you know, two hundred plus years, this
24:32
Speaker 1: has been this has been the way things are done.
24:34
Speaker 1: And I would imagine you know, someone like your mom
24:38
Speaker 1: and dad, actually your brother as well right now, and
24:40
Speaker 1: even your experience to have to have seen the that
24:45
Speaker 1: tension up close, and to see those examples of people
24:47
Speaker 1: who are then after, you know, after it's over, they
24:49
Speaker 1: go have dinner, you know.
24:50
Speaker 2: They vacation together.
24:52
Speaker 1: They're able to separate these two they they sincerely believe
24:55
Speaker 1: what they believe, but at the same time they're able
24:58
Speaker 1: to maintain that relationship. That's the model that historically has
25:02
Speaker 1: been true of us as a nation, and hopefully that
25:05
Speaker 1: will continue to be true of us as a nation
25:08
Speaker 1: going forward. One other well, there's so many things in
25:11
Speaker 1: this book. It's a short book.
25:13
Speaker 2: But it is. You're a very rich writer. You use
25:17
Speaker 2: words so well.
25:18
Speaker 1: You challenge us to become people who are both curious
25:21
Speaker 1: and seek names over narratives. Seek names over narratives. That's
25:26
Speaker 1: another big idea. Talk a little bit about that.
25:29
Speaker 3: I think typically we learn history and get ideas around
25:32
Speaker 3: groups of people based on narratives, because narratives tell the
25:35
Speaker 3: story with a single plot line. There's only there's no hiccups,
25:39
Speaker 3: there's no bumps. This is the way that it goes.
25:41
Speaker 3: But names complicates things, and that's good. I think we
25:45
Speaker 3: want to lean into the complications with people. So for us,
25:50
Speaker 3: the best illustration I saw this was a couple of
25:53
Speaker 3: years ago, we went back to DC to visit my
25:55
Speaker 3: family and we took our boys to the Museum of
25:57
Speaker 3: African American History and Culture. It's an amazing museum, and
26:01
Speaker 3: you walk in ground level and then you take an
26:03
Speaker 3: elevator underground and it kind of takes you on this journey.
26:06
Speaker 3: And so it's supposed to be set up to kind
26:09
Speaker 3: of make you feel like you're in the hull of
26:11
Speaker 3: a slave ship that you're starting on the shores of Africa,
26:14
Speaker 3: and you turn the corner and you've arrived on the
26:16
Speaker 3: shores of America, and you see this statue of Thomas
26:19
Speaker 3: Jefferson in this exhibit, and surrounding Thomas Jefferson are these
26:23
Speaker 3: words from the founding Documents, the things that he wrote
26:26
Speaker 3: that really set a trajectory for the country and what
26:29
Speaker 3: he envisioned for us. Very powerful. And then behind him
26:33
Speaker 3: you see this staff of bricks, and on each brick
26:36
Speaker 3: is engraved in name of one of the six hundred
26:38
Speaker 3: slaves he owned, and it is this super powerful moment
26:42
Speaker 3: of we have a narrative for how we understand our history.
26:44
Speaker 3: It's all good or it's all bad. And then you
26:47
Speaker 3: have this picture of Thomas Jefferson. You know the genius
26:50
Speaker 3: that he contributed to our country, but also the incredibly
26:54
Speaker 3: flawed man that he was and what he participated in.
26:58
Speaker 3: And so my idea is just leaning into the particulars
27:01
Speaker 3: of a person's life that when we start to understand
27:04
Speaker 3: that there's more to the names and more to the individuals,
27:08
Speaker 3: we're less likely to, like the Russian author talks about,
27:11
Speaker 3: we're less likely about creating the line of good and
27:14
Speaker 3: evil on my team versus that team. But the line
27:16
Speaker 3: of good and evil runs down the middle of us,
27:18
Speaker 3: and that should cause us, that should give us pause.
27:21
Speaker 3: We should be a little bit more self critical of
27:23
Speaker 3: ourselves and a little bit more gracious when it comes
27:25
Speaker 3: to understanding others.
27:26
Speaker 1: And that framework allows us to appropriately honor the founding
27:31
Speaker 1: fathers who to your point, and this just doesn't get
27:34
Speaker 1: enough airplay, especially in the current political system. They were
27:37
Speaker 1: so brilliant, and they were such risk takers, and obviously
27:41
Speaker 1: they each risk their own life to do what they did,
27:44
Speaker 1: but at the same time, they were flawed, just like me,
27:47
Speaker 1: potentially like you, I don't know, but certainly dislike me.
27:51
Speaker 1: I hope I'm saying her name correctly. Is it chi
27:53
Speaker 1: Amanda Adici?
27:54
Speaker 3: I think so that I could.
27:55
Speaker 2: Okay, Chiamanda Adichi. We'll just go with that.
27:58
Speaker 1: Has this this power erful ted talk. And you quote her,
28:02
Speaker 1: and I would like to read the.
28:03
Speaker 2: Quote and let you comment on it.
28:04
Speaker 1: You quote her saying, when a scent, and this goes
28:06
Speaker 1: to what we were just talking about. When a single
28:08
Speaker 1: story is told about a certain group over and over
28:12
Speaker 1: and over, When the same story, just the one story
28:14
Speaker 1: is told over and over and over about the same group,
28:17
Speaker 1: that characterization becomes them. So when you hear about this group,
28:20
Speaker 1: you've heard one story. It's associated with their name and
28:24
Speaker 1: your mind, that's all there is to them. Anytime a
28:26
Speaker 1: person is reduced to a simple storyline, we need to
28:30
Speaker 1: pay attention.
28:31
Speaker 2: Something is probably missing.
28:33
Speaker 1: This is such a powerful idea because we get our
28:37
Speaker 1: news and our history and our memories and bits and pieces,
28:40
Speaker 1: and with a single name is a single narrative, and.
28:44
Speaker 2: That's all there is to that. Tell us why that
28:46
Speaker 2: is so dangerous, especially within this context.
28:48
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think I probably experienced that a little bit,
28:50
Speaker 3: a much smaller degree than I think a lot of
28:52
Speaker 3: people happen.
28:52
Speaker 1: You.
28:52
Speaker 2: We certainly did.
28:54
Speaker 3: When my dad ran for president, there was this sense
28:57
Speaker 3: that people thought they knew about him, and they thought
28:59
Speaker 3: they knew about us based off of one SoundBite or
29:02
Speaker 3: learning where he stood on one particular issue. And I
29:05
Speaker 3: just remember feeling so frustrated that they thought they understood
29:08
Speaker 3: the totality of him based on his foreign policy, but
29:11
Speaker 3: they didn't know that he would take the Red eye
29:13
Speaker 3: home every Friday to watch my brother's basketball game Saturday morning,
29:16
Speaker 3: or that he has terrible tastes in sci fi movies.
29:18
Speaker 3: But that was what made him. My dad that's what
29:21
Speaker 3: made him a human. And I think the problem when
29:23
Speaker 3: it comes to the current political culture and are you know,
29:25
Speaker 3: the figureheads on the screen, the talking heads, is that
29:29
Speaker 3: we think we have an idea of what they're actually like,
29:32
Speaker 3: or we think we've understood the totality of them, but
29:34
Speaker 3: there's so much more to them. That they are husbands
29:37
Speaker 3: and wives, they go home to families, there's a way
29:40
Speaker 3: they like their coffee in the morning, that there are
29:41
Speaker 3: things that make them individuals that we can't lose sight of.
29:44
Speaker 1: And there's way more of that actually than this simplistic
29:48
Speaker 1: one line, you know. And this is what honestly drives
29:51
Speaker 1: me crazy about the political season on both sides, when
29:55
Speaker 1: it's reduced to name calling and mischaracterization or even characters
29:59
Speaker 1: they based on a policy or based on a speech,
30:05
Speaker 1: you know, being having experienced a little tiny bit of
30:08
Speaker 1: that in my life, and way more you realize how
30:12
Speaker 1: foolish that is. How I don't know, just it's just foolish,
30:17
Speaker 1: but it's it's a reality.
30:18
Speaker 2: But it just seems like maturity.
30:21
Speaker 1: A part of maturity is to is to acknowledge that
30:24
Speaker 1: and say, you know what, I'm not going to write
30:26
Speaker 1: this person off because of a speech, because of a word,
30:28
Speaker 1: because of a view, even their political persuasion.
30:32
Speaker 2: I'm just I'm not going to be that small.
30:34
Speaker 1: Because it really makes a person small to do that,
30:37
Speaker 1: and we know once we stop to think about it. Wait,
30:40
Speaker 1: there's far more to every single person on this planet
30:44
Speaker 1: than what they do or what they said in a
30:47
Speaker 1: particular moment. One other thing I want to touch on
30:50
Speaker 1: before we begin to wrap this up is this is
30:53
Speaker 1: I'll just read what I wrote. I found your challenge
30:55
Speaker 1: to do an inventory on beliefs, on an inventory on
30:58
Speaker 1: convictions and a onions really helpful. What does it mean
31:02
Speaker 1: to do an inventory of our convictions and our beliefs?
31:06
Speaker 1: Because as a Christian that sounds a little threatening, like
31:10
Speaker 1: what I'm supposed to evaluate my convictions? I mean, the
31:13
Speaker 1: reason they're convictions is because somewhere in the past I've
31:15
Speaker 1: already evaluated.
31:17
Speaker 2: So what are you talking about?
31:19
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's helpful that currently we're finding that
31:22
Speaker 3: every hill is a hill to die on on every
31:25
Speaker 3: issue politically, and when every hill is a hill to
31:27
Speaker 3: die on, none of them are right. We begin to
31:29
Speaker 3: become like white noise, static background. Nobody pays attention. We
31:33
Speaker 3: just sound like we're angry.
31:34
Speaker 2: Everything can't be most important.
31:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the idea of deciding what your beliefs, convictions,
31:39
Speaker 3: and opinions are is deciding what are the things that
31:41
Speaker 3: are most worth your emotional energy in your involvement in dialogue.
31:46
Speaker 3: So beliefs are the things that they really are identity shaping.
31:49
Speaker 3: You feel so strongly about them you can't imagine thinking
31:52
Speaker 3: differently about anything. If you change them, it really would
31:54
Speaker 3: change who you are in a way. Convictions are things
31:57
Speaker 3: you do feel strongly about, but you understand their people
32:00
Speaker 3: who see things differently. Even if you don't see it
32:02
Speaker 3: that way, you get that people have landed a different place.
32:05
Speaker 3: Opinions are the things that we either don't know very
32:07
Speaker 3: much about a topic, or we know some but we
32:10
Speaker 3: just don't care all that much about it, And just
32:12
Speaker 3: deciding what are the things that we want to have
32:14
Speaker 3: a conversation about. In some ways, you know, beliefs could
32:17
Speaker 3: be the things that we want to talk about with people.
32:18
Speaker 3: But if we know we're talking with someone who will
32:20
Speaker 3: never change their mind, then maybe that's a conversation we
32:22
Speaker 3: shouldn't get involved in because there's too much emotionally on
32:24
Speaker 3: the line. Press It could be that talking about an
32:27
Speaker 3: opinion is the best inroad to having a conversation with
32:30
Speaker 3: someone you disagree with, because you can go into it saying,
32:32
Speaker 3: convince me of your opinion. I don't really have strong feelings.
32:35
Speaker 2: I have an opinion, but it's not an educated opinion.
32:37
Speaker 1: That's just pump yeah, yeah, to begin, and sometimes those
32:41
Speaker 1: can be on ramps to those deeper yes.
32:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.
32:44
Speaker 2: Well that's pretty powerful. Okay.
32:46
Speaker 1: So, as I mentioned upfront, we're having this discussion before
32:50
Speaker 1: the election, just a few days before the election. So
32:54
Speaker 1: currently as people watch this, half the nation is angry, fearful, frustration.
33:00
Speaker 1: The other half is they're celebrating. So, based on what
33:05
Speaker 1: you write in your book, if you're sitting across the
33:07
Speaker 1: table from either side, what's your advice as it relates
33:12
Speaker 1: to the space between us.
33:14
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I would start by saying to stay
33:16
Speaker 3: curious with people who are different from you, to just
33:20
Speaker 3: be open to the idea that maybe there's something more
33:23
Speaker 3: for us to learn and to potentially even change our
33:25
Speaker 3: minds about when it comes to positions that we hold.
33:28
Speaker 3: I just I think of this Ted talk where this
33:31
Speaker 3: woman asks the audience, you know, what does it feel
33:33
Speaker 3: like to be wrong and people are throwing out answers
33:36
Speaker 3: like it's embarrassing or humiliating, and she said, no, that's
33:38
Speaker 3: what it feels like when you discover you're wrong. Being
33:41
Speaker 3: wrong without knowing it feels like being right. And I
33:44
Speaker 3: think all of that that's a big idea.
33:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's in the book. Say that again, this is huge.
33:49
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, being wrong feels a lot like being
33:52
Speaker 3: right before you know you're wrong. And so I think
33:55
Speaker 3: it's possible that there are ideas we're holding on to
33:58
Speaker 3: that maybe we need to change our minds about and
34:00
Speaker 3: maybe not everything, but at least be open to the
34:02
Speaker 3: possibility of continuing to learn and to be curious with
34:05
Speaker 3: people who think differently than us. The second thing I
34:08
Speaker 3: would say is to keep engaging with people, don't give
34:11
Speaker 3: up on the face to face communication. That we are
34:14
Speaker 3: living in a culture where it's really easy to live
34:17
Speaker 3: in these self isolated echo chambers and without even really
34:20
Speaker 3: trying very hard, we can only surround ourselves with people
34:23
Speaker 3: just like us. With the news network that we watch,
34:25
Speaker 3: with the clicks on the articles that we read that
34:27
Speaker 3: there's right, it is easy to stay in our lane
34:31
Speaker 3: and to not have actual relationships with people who think differently.
34:34
Speaker 3: But we know from studies that sustained eye contact with
34:37
Speaker 3: people triggers empathetic responses. So we want to continue to
34:40
Speaker 3: have face to face interactions with people who are different
34:43
Speaker 3: from us. And the last thing I would say is
34:45
Speaker 3: to not give up on each other. That there's too
34:48
Speaker 3: much on the line for us to continue to veer
34:51
Speaker 3: away from one another. I'm a mom. I have an
34:53
Speaker 3: eight year old and a ten year old, and I
34:55
Speaker 3: want them to grow up in a world observing a
34:58
Speaker 3: healthy way to be with people that is not reliant
35:01
Speaker 3: on sameness. I want them to know that we don't
35:04
Speaker 3: have to just tolerate our differences, that we can celebrate them,
35:07
Speaker 3: that we can come around them and maybe even be
35:10
Speaker 3: introduced to an image of God and somebody that we
35:12
Speaker 3: would never encountered otherwise unless we got uncomfortable. So I
35:16
Speaker 3: want this from my kids. I think we need this
35:17
Speaker 3: for the generation behind us.
35:19
Speaker 1: Well, that is a perfect segue into something else I've
35:23
Speaker 1: pulled out of the book. You write we can love
35:26
Speaker 1: without agreement. To your point, we can honor without harmony,
35:32
Speaker 1: and we can respect without conformity. And the reason I
35:36
Speaker 1: pulled those three statements out for me is because as
35:39
Speaker 1: a Christian, as a Jesus follower, how can I not
35:43
Speaker 1: do this? Because this is exactly what God through Christ
35:47
Speaker 1: did for us. He loved us even though there was disagreement,
35:51
Speaker 1: while we were still sinners.
35:53
Speaker 2: Christ died for us.
35:54
Speaker 1: He honored us without harmony. He honored us by sending
35:57
Speaker 1: his son into this world, and he respects to us
36:00
Speaker 1: by valuing us without conformity. We are nothing like him.
36:06
Speaker 1: So as difficult as it is as a Christian, as
36:09
Speaker 1: Christ followers, we really lose our excuse not to at
36:12
Speaker 1: least lean in this direction. Right now, right after the
36:17
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen election, something really interesting happened for you. You realize, oh,
36:22
Speaker 1: we're about to have Thanksgiving, and because all of your
36:26
Speaker 1: family is involved, as you said earlier, in politics and religion,
36:31
Speaker 1: your family, your immediate and extended family, wasn't going to
36:34
Speaker 1: be able to gather without talking about politics and religion.
36:37
Speaker 1: And this is right after the election. So as you
36:39
Speaker 1: prepared for that, you know that celebration, you wrote a
36:43
Speaker 1: prayer for you that you ended up inviting your entire
36:48
Speaker 1: family to pray. So tell us a little bit about
36:50
Speaker 1: the prayer. And then I've asked Sarah to close our
36:53
Speaker 1: time together by simply reading this prayer over us.
36:56
Speaker 3: Well, I think I was probably naive and assuming that
36:58
Speaker 3: after election Day things might go back to normal in
37:01
Speaker 3: twenty sixteen, and then it was evident that that was
37:03
Speaker 3: not going to happen. And just from being on social
37:07
Speaker 3: media and paying attention to different sides of where people
37:10
Speaker 3: were voting or where they had landed on, I just
37:12
Speaker 3: noticed that there was a lot of thanks going into
37:14
Speaker 3: a holiday where we were going to be around our
37:16
Speaker 3: extended family. And I just wrote a prayer for myself
37:21
Speaker 3: to kind of keep in mind and shared it with
37:23
Speaker 3: my husband. And then when we had Thanksgiving together, we
37:27
Speaker 3: always pray together as a big family, and Rodney said,
37:30
Speaker 3: I think I'm going to read your prayer with everybody,
37:32
Speaker 3: and so.
37:33
Speaker 2: They had not.
37:34
Speaker 1: They had not read it, so this was just for you, yes,
37:37
Speaker 1: and Rodney, and Rodney decided to share it with the family.
37:39
Speaker 2: So then what happened.
37:40
Speaker 3: So we all gathered in his parents' kitchen and held
37:43
Speaker 3: hands and prayed this prayer together. And it was a
37:46
Speaker 3: recentering for us. You know, we don't have a whole
37:49
Speaker 3: lot in common all the time. You know, we have
37:52
Speaker 3: a lot in common, but not everything all the time,
37:54
Speaker 3: and it just reminded us of the most important things.
37:56
Speaker 2: Wow.
37:57
Speaker 1: So I would love for you to close our conversation
38:00
Speaker 1: by just reading it straight out of the back of
38:03
Speaker 1: the book, over us and for us. And I told
38:06
Speaker 1: Sarah earlier I was planning to read it, but it
38:09
Speaker 1: is so powerful, I'm not sure I could get through it.
38:12
Speaker 2: So Sarah.
38:13
Speaker 3: Thanks. It's called a liturgy for the space between us,
38:17
Speaker 3: for family near and peaceable. Lord, we give thanks for
38:21
Speaker 3: family far and conflicted. Lord. We give thanks for the
38:26
Speaker 3: ones easy to love. Lord. We give thanks for the
38:29
Speaker 3: ones we fight to love. Lord. We give thanks for
38:33
Speaker 3: people who see as we see. Lord. We give thanks
38:37
Speaker 3: for people we don't understand. Lord, we give thanks for
38:41
Speaker 3: people who don't understand us. Lord. We give thanks for
38:45
Speaker 3: easy conversation and expressed affection. Lord. We give thanks for
38:50
Speaker 3: gentle discord within our discourse. Lord. We give thanks for
38:55
Speaker 3: unity not sameness. Lord. We give thanks for charity and
39:00
Speaker 3: all things. Lord. We give thanks for a world that
39:03
Speaker 3: reflects your goodness. Lord. We give thanks for humankind that
39:08
Speaker 3: bears your image. Lord. We give thanks for a day
39:11
Speaker 3: when we'll delighten our differences and not just tolerate them.
39:15
Speaker 3: For a gathering of every tribe and every tongue, for
39:18
Speaker 3: a table and a feast today, anticipating the one we'll
39:22
Speaker 3: enjoy with you someday. Lord, we give thanks, Amen,