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Body Bags With Joseph Scott Morgan: A Huge Problem - Body Builder Murders Ex-Wife Katie Baunach · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:08
Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. For many people, hours upon
0:23
Speaker 1: hours upon hours are spent in the gym, working out,
0:30
Speaker 1: trying to make their so called temple a thing of beauty,
0:34
Speaker 1: something that would be admired by everyone they came in
0:39
Speaker 1: contact with, something that maybe other people desire to have
0:43
Speaker 1: for themselves. The way we appear outside doesn't necessarily mean
0:49
Speaker 1: that what we have within us it's going to be
0:53
Speaker 1: very beautiful at all. As a matter of fact, it
0:56
Speaker 1: can absolutely be rotten to the Today we're going to
1:04
Speaker 1: talk about a thirty nine year old mama and her
1:10
Speaker 1: death at the hands of her husband. I'm Joseph Scott
1:17
Speaker 1: Morgan and this is Body Bags. Jackie Howard, executive producer
1:27
Speaker 1: of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, is joining me today. Jackie,
1:33
Speaker 1: did you ever see something that's it has a luster
1:37
Speaker 1: to it. It's something that you think that you want,
1:40
Speaker 1: but you know, you look back on it. I think
1:42
Speaker 1: many times as you get older and you think, man, think, heavens,
1:45
Speaker 1: I didn't acquire that thing in my life, And unfortunately,
1:49
Speaker 1: in this case, this is something that really turned bad
1:52
Speaker 1: and very ugly. After many years of marriage, Katie Bonnock
1:58
Speaker 1: was reported missing to Florida police, and she had, before
2:02
Speaker 1: her disappearance, accused her ex husband of physically abusing one
2:07
Speaker 1: of their children, and she had gone to court to
2:10
Speaker 1: get a restraining order against him, asking that the court
2:14
Speaker 1: send him for counseling. Now. The night before she went
2:17
Speaker 1: and missing, Katie Bonmock dropped her children off at a
2:21
Speaker 1: friend's house. She was on her way to her ex
2:24
Speaker 1: husband's home to pick up some of her things, and
2:27
Speaker 1: that was the last time Katie Bonock was seen alive.
2:31
Speaker 1: The next day, police officers visited Ian Bonnock, that was
2:34
Speaker 1: her ex husband, and found that her car was still
2:39
Speaker 1: parked in his driveway, her purse was inside, and neither
2:43
Speaker 1: of the individual was expected to be at the residence
2:45
Speaker 1: Ian or Katie could be found. Police left and the
2:50
Speaker 1: detectives came back and found Katie Bonnock's car had been moved,
2:55
Speaker 1: and detectives went for a search warrant. What can the
2:59
Speaker 1: simple movement, the moving of a card tell you to
3:04
Speaker 1: make you so suspicious that you try to get a
3:07
Speaker 1: search warrant? Well, it implies activity. You go there and
3:12
Speaker 1: you don't get an answer at the door, and suddenly
3:14
Speaker 1: things are not as they appeared. Upon the initial viewing,
3:18
Speaker 1: and so for investigators, that's that's a huge red of flag,
3:22
Speaker 1: particularly when you've got a mama that's missing. We're talking
3:27
Speaker 1: about an individual that's responsible for little lives, right, and
3:32
Speaker 1: you know that makes it all the more urgent. How
3:34
Speaker 1: many times do we hear about these cases where people
3:37
Speaker 1: will say, well, they're an adult, they have a decision
3:39
Speaker 1: to make, they can leave and all that sort of thing,
3:42
Speaker 1: and know the police will delay in taking a missing
3:44
Speaker 1: person's report. However, when you're talking about a mother that
3:50
Speaker 1: goes missing and there's no explanation for it or whatsoever,
3:54
Speaker 1: and you've got children that are kind of out here
3:58
Speaker 1: without that support system that every child deserves from their mother,
4:02
Speaker 1: it causes police to be a bit more sensitive to
4:05
Speaker 1: what's going on. It's more of a motivating factor. And
4:10
Speaker 1: when she's missing and they come back and the cars
4:13
Speaker 1: have been rearranged, they have to get an answer for
4:15
Speaker 1: that because they're actively looking for her at that point
4:18
Speaker 1: in time, and you begin to think, well, she's disappeared,
4:22
Speaker 1: she goes to her ex husband's house, that's the last
4:25
Speaker 1: time she's known to be alive, or at least her
4:28
Speaker 1: last destination that anyone knew of and suddenly she just
4:32
Speaker 1: vaporizes and no one can find her anywhere. So is
4:36
Speaker 1: that enough for probable cause for a warrant to enter
4:41
Speaker 1: somebody's residence at that point in time? And the police
4:43
Speaker 1: have to consider that they want to go find her
4:46
Speaker 1: at that point in time, And it's at that juncture
4:50
Speaker 1: once they get that warrant and they can enter the
4:52
Speaker 1: resonance that suddenly things don't turn out the way they
4:56
Speaker 1: expected them to. There's evidence of a struggle in the home.
5:01
Speaker 1: Her rings are found there, which are her wedding ring
5:05
Speaker 1: and her engagement ring. Who's going to remove those and
5:09
Speaker 1: have them there? You know, she was always known to
5:11
Speaker 1: wear them. The police theorized that when she went to
5:15
Speaker 1: the house, she actually took those items with her and
5:18
Speaker 1: gave them to him. You know, is it to say
5:21
Speaker 1: I don't want these anymore and you never know? You
5:25
Speaker 1: never know? Is that an act of provocation at that point?
5:28
Speaker 1: Is that enough to make somebody angry to the point
5:32
Speaker 1: where they're going to do great harm to an individual?
5:35
Speaker 1: Besides the sign of a struggle that you mentioned, police
5:39
Speaker 1: also found blood in Ian Bonnox's trunk. They used luminol.
5:45
Speaker 1: That's how they found the blood by using luminol. So
5:49
Speaker 1: as many times as you've explained this to me, Joe,
5:51
Speaker 1: I need you to tell me again, walk me through this,
5:56
Speaker 1: because I am amazed at what can be done with
6:00
Speaker 1: the chemical reaction that we can see blood after someone
6:04
Speaker 1: has tried to clean it up after a long time,
6:08
Speaker 1: and walk me through the process again. It is really fascinating. Yeah,
6:13
Speaker 1: it really is. And there's a couple of these agents
6:16
Speaker 1: that are out there that we use in forensics. Lumino,
6:18
Speaker 1: of course it's most famously known. There's another one called
6:22
Speaker 1: blue Star, and they act basically the same way. The
6:25
Speaker 1: principle is is that those things that can no longer
6:28
Speaker 1: be seen with what we refer to in science, as
6:32
Speaker 1: with the unaided eye, as the way it's generally phrased,
6:36
Speaker 1: particularly by forensic pathologists, can actually be revitalized and brought
6:41
Speaker 1: back to life. And Luminov's kind of fascinating it. It
6:44
Speaker 1: works in the same manner. It's a chemical fluorescence, is
6:47
Speaker 1: what is what actually happens, And it's kind of the
6:50
Speaker 1: same principle as we see with flies or as we
6:53
Speaker 1: stay down here in the south lightning bugs, and it's
6:55
Speaker 1: the same the same principle that that that when the
7:01
Speaker 1: agent of luminol is applied to an area that previously
7:05
Speaker 1: held blood, and no matter how minor that deposit of
7:09
Speaker 1: blood might be, it will luminate us. And what's happening
7:13
Speaker 1: is if you think about substance it's called hemoglobin that's
7:16
Speaker 1: contained within our blood. Hemoglobin acts is like a little
7:20
Speaker 1: vehicle that transports our RBC's, our red blood cells, those
7:24
Speaker 1: the oxygenated blood cells that are kind of moving through
7:27
Speaker 1: our system, and it's it's bound up with proteins. And
7:31
Speaker 1: one of the things with the with the hemoglobin is
7:36
Speaker 1: that it it has traces of minerals in in it.
7:42
Speaker 1: Iron for instance, the mineral iron is found in there,
7:45
Speaker 1: and the luminole actually reacts with the iron, and so
7:49
Speaker 1: it'll it'll give you a snapshot and almost literally a snapshot,
7:54
Speaker 1: because when you apply luminol to an area, you got
7:59
Speaker 1: about thirty seconds. So the point of it is to
8:05
Speaker 1: document the location of where you suspect blood is and
8:10
Speaker 1: the photographer that's there. First off, you have to do
8:13
Speaker 1: it in the dark. Take these photographs in the dark.
8:16
Speaker 1: You have to have what's called long or extended shutter speed.
8:20
Speaker 1: The shutter has to remain open because it's trying to
8:23
Speaker 1: grab all the available light in order to document that
8:27
Speaker 1: image photographically. I think a lot of people believe that
8:31
Speaker 1: with luminol, first off, that if you apply it to
8:35
Speaker 1: the area, you're not going to be able to appreciate detail.
8:38
Speaker 1: Let me tell something, Jackie. You can appreciate splash patterns.
8:42
Speaker 1: You can appreciate the dynamics of blood as to the stain,
8:46
Speaker 1: like we talk about velocity, where we've got low, low, medium,
8:50
Speaker 1: and high velocity blood staining that goes on. You can
8:53
Speaker 1: appreciate that. You can appreciate what are called wipes and swipes,
8:57
Speaker 1: particularly wipes, because what do people try to do when
9:00
Speaker 1: you can't see blood with the unaided eye, like we
9:03
Speaker 1: just mentioned, Well, many times they tried to wipe it up.
9:06
Speaker 1: Maybe they've tried to drag a mop through it, for instance,
9:09
Speaker 1: and you'll see these long swipes and wipes that kind
9:12
Speaker 1: of go through it. And you can pick up on
9:14
Speaker 1: that and what does that mean, Well, it means that
9:17
Speaker 1: there was blood there, and it means that there was
9:20
Speaker 1: probably an attempt to clean it up at that point
9:23
Speaker 1: in time. And contrary to a popular opinion, just because
9:27
Speaker 1: you apply luminol to an area where you believe blood
9:31
Speaker 1: was and you can verify that there was blood there.
9:33
Speaker 1: Do you know that the luminol doesn't actually impact DNA
9:36
Speaker 1: to the degree that many people think. We can still
9:38
Speaker 1: recover DNA in those environments, even though they're not the
9:42
Speaker 1: best circumstances. You can still recover vible DNA that you
9:46
Speaker 1: can use for typing. So it's a wonderful substance. And
9:50
Speaker 1: what it does is it actually documents activity, and that's
9:54
Speaker 1: the most important thing, because we're not witnessed to these
9:57
Speaker 1: violent events that take place. There's the old adage about
10:01
Speaker 1: blood will tell and blood does tell, and it's it's
10:05
Speaker 1: it's interesting in the sense that it's almost like a
10:08
Speaker 1: historic record of what had occurred in that location, and
10:12
Speaker 1: now somebody is attempted to alter it and moving forward,
10:17
Speaker 1: they're hoping that they're going to completely disguise it. So
10:20
Speaker 1: you've got this blood that's found at the scene, and
10:23
Speaker 1: most notably when they encountered the blood in the trunk,
10:28
Speaker 1: the ex husband actually stated that, well, that that blood
10:31
Speaker 1: was there as a result of groceries, and well, okay, groceries,
10:36
Speaker 1: what do you mean are you saying that you've got
10:39
Speaker 1: leaking ground beef or leaking pot roast that was back there.
10:44
Speaker 1: And to another point, somebody says something like, well, this
10:48
Speaker 1: is not human blood, this is animal blood. Well, okay,
10:51
Speaker 1: well we can make a determination about that because there's
10:54
Speaker 1: actually testing that we do relative to determination of blood
10:59
Speaker 1: within the construct of forensic sceurology, which is a study
11:02
Speaker 1: of blood, which is pretty dynamic. We think about everything
11:08
Speaker 1: that we can do because of the steps along that
11:10
Speaker 1: continuum relative to the blood that we have it as seen.
11:13
Speaker 1: We have to think about first off, is what we're
11:16
Speaker 1: seeing is it blood? Because you can't just walk up
11:19
Speaker 1: and say, yeah, there's blood here. You don't, I mean,
11:21
Speaker 1: no investigator worth their salt would ever do that. I
11:27
Speaker 1: think I've said before I've seen areas that appear to
11:30
Speaker 1: be blood that turned out to be melted chocolate. And
11:34
Speaker 1: I've seen things that I thought were chocolate that turned
11:36
Speaker 1: out to be blood. So you can't just eyeball an
11:39
Speaker 1: area and say it's blood. So you have to test
11:41
Speaker 1: it to see if in fact it's blood. And then
11:44
Speaker 1: the next step that you go to is you test
11:46
Speaker 1: it and see if it's animal or human, and then
11:50
Speaker 1: from there you try to narrow it down to what
11:53
Speaker 1: human that blood belongs to, if in fact it is
11:55
Speaker 1: human blood. So through this process of typing, and then
11:58
Speaker 1: of course you can take it down to a really
12:00
Speaker 1: fine point where you get to DNA analysis and you
12:04
Speaker 1: can be very very specific with you. Years gone by,
12:07
Speaker 1: all we had was type where we would do the
12:09
Speaker 1: various blood types. But nowadays you can put a very
12:12
Speaker 1: very fine point on it. This is totally off topic,
12:16
Speaker 1: but who in the world thought, Hey, if I sprayed
12:19
Speaker 1: this chemical on blood, I'll bet I can see it
12:22
Speaker 1: under a black light. That's actually a pretty interesting story,
12:27
Speaker 1: and it goes back I guess, I think if I'm
12:31
Speaker 1: not mistaken, that this kind of illuminescence was first discovered
12:35
Speaker 1: all the way back, I think in like the nineteen
12:37
Speaker 1: twenties by a German scientist. It's like anything that kind
12:41
Speaker 1: of happens where you kind of bump up against discoveries
12:45
Speaker 1: in science and suddenly you find something like this. I
12:49
Speaker 1: can only imagine, and I'm kind of superimposing my thoughts
12:52
Speaker 1: about this relative to scientific discovery. You think about some
12:56
Speaker 1: scientists that's in a lapse somewhere and he discovers this
12:59
Speaker 1: agent that he can to blood and luminess and you think, well,
13:02
Speaker 1: that's that's kind of fascinating. Let's move on to the
13:04
Speaker 1: next thing. But he documents it, and then moving forward
13:07
Speaker 1: in time, you get into like the nineteen thirties and
13:11
Speaker 1: you've actually got a forensic scientist that looks at this
13:13
Speaker 1: and says, hey, you know what, I think that we
13:16
Speaker 1: could use this discovery from back in the twenties to
13:20
Speaker 1: actually appreciate what was happening at a crime scene. And
13:25
Speaker 1: sure enough, they did it. They began to apply it
13:28
Speaker 1: in the thirties. Of course, it wasn't something that was
13:30
Speaker 1: widely known about at that time, and it takes time
13:32
Speaker 1: for these tests to evolve over a period of time,
13:37
Speaker 1: and eventually it just kind of got into our cannon,
13:41
Speaker 1: you know, our scientific cannon that this is something that
13:44
Speaker 1: you're going to that you're going to apply and use.
13:47
Speaker 1: And now you know, the everyday person knows about luminalf
13:51
Speaker 1: So it's another one of those great things, a mistake
13:57
Speaker 1: that turned into a great discovery. Yeah, yeah, you're you're
14:00
Speaker 1: absolutely right, and that's it's a fantastic tool. Okay, So
14:04
Speaker 1: back to the case, when police talked to the husband
14:07
Speaker 1: about the blood that was found in this trunk. He said,
14:10
Speaker 1: she's not missing. You don't have a body. He blamed
14:14
Speaker 1: the blood as you mentioned earlier on oh I brought
14:17
Speaker 1: in groceries. It could have been the meat that seemed
14:21
Speaker 1: But then he told police that he didn't believe that
14:25
Speaker 1: blood was found in the hallway. When investigators continued their search,
14:31
Speaker 1: they found a burn pile on the property, and inside
14:35
Speaker 1: they found part of a jawbone and a tooth. So
14:39
Speaker 1: we're going to have that discussion that we always have
14:42
Speaker 1: about how hard it is to burn a body. Yeah,
14:46
Speaker 1: this is this is kind of interesting because before we
14:52
Speaker 1: get to the burn pile, which was recent, they found
14:57
Speaker 1: this barrel. It's like a fifty fifty gallon oil drum
15:01
Speaker 1: that's immediately adjacent to this area, and the investigators were
15:05
Speaker 1: immediately struck by the smell of decay within this barrel
15:11
Speaker 1: that something had begun to break down. And then, of course,
15:15
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, there were bone fragments that were found
15:18
Speaker 1: the jaw itself, which contained a tooth. Forensic anthropologists talk
15:23
Speaker 1: about bones in a couple of ways, and one of
15:26
Speaker 1: the most fascinating is they use the term robust, particularly
15:29
Speaker 1: when it comes to male skeletal structure. They'll use the
15:32
Speaker 1: term robust kind of tuberunt if you will. Like our
15:35
Speaker 1: brow lines, and you think about the knot on the
15:38
Speaker 1: back of our head, the oxyput that's back there, and
15:42
Speaker 1: our master we process that are below our ears to
15:45
Speaker 1: the rear. In males as tend to be very robust
15:48
Speaker 1: and heavy dents, that sort of thing. The jaw is
15:51
Speaker 1: very robust, and it does not surprise me in the
15:54
Speaker 1: least bit that that that is one of the few
15:57
Speaker 1: remnants that was actually left behind, and certainly with that
16:01
Speaker 1: tooth as well, because teeth are not bone, they're seated
16:05
Speaker 1: in obviously the jaw bone, the lower jaw, the mandible.
16:10
Speaker 1: You've got thirty two teeth and an adult and you'd
16:13
Speaker 1: be missing them, but you have thirty two spots for teeth,
16:16
Speaker 1: and then of course the maxilla, the upper teeth. That's
16:19
Speaker 1: the hard palate where the heart adjacent to the hard palate,
16:22
Speaker 1: and the where the roof of the mouth is. And
16:26
Speaker 1: it takes a protracted period of time in order to
16:31
Speaker 1: render a body down visa the heat, and it requires
16:37
Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of attention tending, if you will. And
16:42
Speaker 1: bones kind of fascinated and there's been several studies that
16:45
Speaker 1: have been done over the course of time relative to
16:48
Speaker 1: how long it takes to actually render down bone. And
16:52
Speaker 1: it goes through a variety of process and one of
16:55
Speaker 1: the things that you'll see is that once heat is
16:57
Speaker 1: initially applied to bone, bone will go through a series
17:00
Speaker 1: of color changes. And the first kind of stop along
17:04
Speaker 1: that continuum is it'll turn kind of a yellow yellow color.
17:08
Speaker 1: And what's happening is that the bone itself is beginning
17:13
Speaker 1: to render up any kind of fatty residue that's still
17:17
Speaker 1: contained in there from life, and that's being consumed. And
17:22
Speaker 1: then bone if you look at a bone that has
17:25
Speaker 1: been burned, if it's only exposed to heat for a
17:28
Speaker 1: short period of time, it'll take on this kind of
17:30
Speaker 1: yellow color once that is burned off. Particularly, you can
17:37
Speaker 1: really appreciate on the ends of the bone. Say you
17:39
Speaker 1: take a long bone like a femur, down to say
17:42
Speaker 1: where the knee attachment is, or up in the hip.
17:45
Speaker 1: If a body has been dismembered, for instance, you'll get
17:49
Speaker 1: this charring on the tips and it will have a
17:51
Speaker 1: kind of a black color. But if bone just sits
17:55
Speaker 1: there by itself, but yet it's continue to be subjected
17:58
Speaker 1: to heat. One of the observations that you make is
18:00
Speaker 1: that as the bone begins to heat up, you can
18:05
Speaker 1: have what are referred to as heat related fractures. And
18:09
Speaker 1: this is key because when you're looking at a bone
18:14
Speaker 1: and you're trying to assess trauma, you're trying to first off,
18:18
Speaker 1: determine is this anti mortem or post mortem before death
18:21
Speaker 1: or after death? And secondly, is this fracture that you're witnessing.
18:26
Speaker 1: Is this as a result of trauma that was inflicted
18:32
Speaker 1: upon this person or is this a heat related fracture,
18:35
Speaker 1: because that does happen. Many solid items out there that
18:39
Speaker 1: are subjected to fire will fracture as a result of heat,
18:42
Speaker 1: and that's that happens as a result of contraction or expansion,
18:47
Speaker 1: and so'll it'll split along those weakest spots. But what's
18:51
Speaker 1: interesting about bone is that when it does kind of
18:55
Speaker 1: begin to move beyond that heat fracturing stage, it begins
18:59
Speaker 1: to present in another way where you have the pattern
19:04
Speaker 1: becomes almost a grid like pattern where it kind of
19:07
Speaker 1: breaks up into these little squares, and then it goes
19:11
Speaker 1: into a stage called calcination, where the bone will have
19:15
Speaker 1: kind of a calcific appearance. It's almost white, and you
19:19
Speaker 1: have to be very careful with the jackie, very very
19:21
Speaker 1: careful because when you pick it up, when it has
19:24
Speaker 1: hit that point, it's so absent of any kind of moisture,
19:28
Speaker 1: it's very delicate, and you can just with mirror hand strength,
19:34
Speaker 1: you can actually crumble it in your hands. And then
19:37
Speaker 1: if you've done that, you've lost everything that might have
19:39
Speaker 1: any kind of evidentiary value. You're a police officers, show
20:01
Speaker 1: up at a home and you're looking for missing mother,
20:07
Speaker 1: and the best you can get are what appears to
20:10
Speaker 1: be bloodstains and a remnant of a jaw with a
20:13
Speaker 1: tooth in it. And I got to tell you, you know,
20:16
Speaker 1: as an investigator, first off, you'd have a very visceral reaction,
20:20
Speaker 1: like something horrible has happened at this point. And then
20:23
Speaker 1: I think secondly, you think, well, where do we go
20:26
Speaker 1: from here? What do we do? Because there has to
20:28
Speaker 1: be an explanation for all of this. If she's only
20:31
Speaker 1: been missing for twenty four hours, why did the barrel
20:36
Speaker 1: have such a stench of decay? Because we know decomposition,
20:42
Speaker 1: while it begins immediately upon death, it takes more time
20:47
Speaker 1: to have such a stench of decay, Right, I think
20:53
Speaker 1: that many times that people will confuse when you're around
20:58
Speaker 1: a body that has been tissue that has been burned,
21:01
Speaker 1: it gives off a very foul odor. Or I'll give
21:04
Speaker 1: you an example, if anyone there smelled, for instance, burned hair,
21:07
Speaker 1: it's horrible smell. It's absolutely horrendous. I and not just
21:12
Speaker 1: that skin gives off a very vile stench as well.
21:16
Speaker 1: You combine that with the super heat and humidity of Florida,
21:22
Speaker 1: things break down pretty quickly down there in that environment.
21:26
Speaker 1: The police have not released every bit of information in
21:29
Speaker 1: this case, and I really wonder, I really wonder if
21:33
Speaker 1: this is an event where there was some maybe partial
21:37
Speaker 1: dismemberment that had taken place, Because if you're going to
21:40
Speaker 1: either use the burned barrel or the burn pile, how
21:44
Speaker 1: do you facilitate burning the entire body and rendering it down.
21:48
Speaker 1: What I mean by that is that once you open
21:52
Speaker 1: a body up, once you begin to take a body apart,
21:57
Speaker 1: that also can accelerate the process of opposition as well,
22:01
Speaker 1: and even in a short period of time, particularly in
22:04
Speaker 1: very hostile environmental conditions like you have in Florida, with
22:08
Speaker 1: the heat and humidity and all of those factors that
22:11
Speaker 1: kind of come along with that. So you've got this
22:14
Speaker 1: kind of combination that's going on, perhaps in a very
22:17
Speaker 1: short period of time down there. So the odor investigators
22:21
Speaker 1: were smelling was from the attempt to render down the body. Now,
22:27
Speaker 1: part of the body was found in the barrel, but
22:30
Speaker 1: there were also bones found in the burn pile. So
22:35
Speaker 1: someone took a shovel or something and moved the body.
22:39
Speaker 1: I think that, yeah, that's quite possible in just the
22:43
Speaker 1: jostling of the body, moving the body about and this
22:45
Speaker 1: sort of thing. Again, you're introducing these other factors into
22:50
Speaker 1: the equation. When you're manipulating a body that has that's
22:55
Speaker 1: obviously already been deceased, you've already got evidence that there
22:58
Speaker 1: was injury because there's so much blood. And so again,
23:02
Speaker 1: the injury is going to promote. First off, it's going
23:05
Speaker 1: to promote decomposition. It will accelerate that deepended upon what
23:09
Speaker 1: types of injuries there are. Are we talking about a
23:11
Speaker 1: blunt force impact injury? Are we talking about the cutting injury?
23:17
Speaker 1: And where those cuts achieved either anti mortem, before death
23:21
Speaker 1: or post mortem. There was evidence inside the garage they're
23:24
Speaker 1: saying against the door, there was a fantastic struggle that
23:28
Speaker 1: apparently had gone on within the garage in that environment.
23:33
Speaker 1: So how do you explain this deposition of blood that
23:37
Speaker 1: is kind of off down the hallway, you talk about
23:40
Speaker 1: it's in the trunk of the car. You've got this
23:42
Speaker 1: evidence of struggle. You begin to think, Wow, this is
23:45
Speaker 1: really scattered. Going into the mindset of what was going on,
23:49
Speaker 1: this is a very scattered, kind of frenetic, disorganized kind
23:53
Speaker 1: of event, and it gives you a sense there is
23:58
Speaker 1: a lot of potentially anger that's involved in this, that
24:02
Speaker 1: it is something that's just run completely amok. And of course,
24:07
Speaker 1: as people are always saying, domestic situations many times turn
24:10
Speaker 1: out to be the most violent of all. So here
24:13
Speaker 1: we run into the quandary again about figuring out determining
24:18
Speaker 1: a cause of death. If the body has been moved
24:22
Speaker 1: multiple times one and two, an attempt has been made
24:28
Speaker 1: to cremate the body, how are we going to discover, determine,
24:33
Speaker 1: diagnose the cause of death. Yeah, that's a big question
24:38
Speaker 1: that happens. And you'll see death certificates. I've actually seen
24:41
Speaker 1: one very recently that are essentially signed out like this.
24:44
Speaker 1: You'll see you, as we've talked about before, on bodybacks,
24:47
Speaker 1: where we've got the five different manners of death, and
24:50
Speaker 1: in this case, of course, that manner of death would
24:53
Speaker 1: be classified by the medical examiner down there as a homicide.
24:58
Speaker 1: When you do not have a specific cause of death,
25:02
Speaker 1: some people will say unknowns as cause of death, and
25:06
Speaker 1: that is that thing that brought about the end of
25:09
Speaker 1: this person's life. What was the primary causal factor of death.
25:14
Speaker 1: Some forensic pathologists will list it as non specific homicidal trauma,
25:20
Speaker 1: and that's a very broad term. They're kind of going
25:22
Speaker 1: back and reinforcing what the what their supposition is relative
25:27
Speaker 1: to manner of death. So they're saying, Okay, it's non
25:31
Speaker 1: specific homicidal trauma. And each think about this. When a
25:35
Speaker 1: pathologist gets on a stand and they go to testify,
25:39
Speaker 1: the defense council has a field day with that. They'll
25:43
Speaker 1: make a big dramatic moment out of it before the
25:45
Speaker 1: jury and they'll say, so, doctor, you have no way
25:48
Speaker 1: to say what brought about the death of this How
25:52
Speaker 1: can you be so sure it's a homicide? Well, then
25:56
Speaker 1: it becomes a matter of just kind of logically attempting
25:59
Speaker 1: to piece this together from a scientific standpoint. Okay, if
26:02
Speaker 1: this is not a homicide, how do you explain that
26:05
Speaker 1: she has been found or the remnant of her has
26:08
Speaker 1: been found in a burn pile, her body has been
26:10
Speaker 1: rendered down. Do you realize how long it would take
26:13
Speaker 1: for this to happen? And of course you go into
26:16
Speaker 1: talking about it would take hours and hours and hours
26:19
Speaker 1: and sustained heat of twelve hundred degrees fairnheight, and somebody
26:23
Speaker 1: would have had been tended, it would have had to
26:26
Speaker 1: have tended to fire. And all the while the jury
26:29
Speaker 1: is listening to this and they're thinking, oh wow, okay,
26:32
Speaker 1: clouds are kind of parting here, and I'm seeing that
26:35
Speaker 1: probably this death is in fact a homicide. But you know,
26:39
Speaker 1: you always run a risk with a case like this
26:40
Speaker 1: because it's prosecutors trying to get this thing to the
26:43
Speaker 1: point where it's beyond a reasonable doubt. Sometimes the jury
26:46
Speaker 1: will be left scratching their head when they're back there
26:48
Speaker 1: in that little room. So is non specific homicidal trauma
26:55
Speaker 1: the same thing as undetermined? Well, yes, and no. You
27:00
Speaker 1: will have friends of pathologists that are out there that
27:04
Speaker 1: will say undetermined and simply what that is is that
27:08
Speaker 1: they're shrugging their shoulders to say, I don't know, I know,
27:10
Speaker 1: it's a homicide, but I don't know what the cause
27:12
Speaker 1: of death is. When you have somebody that will write, now,
27:17
Speaker 1: non specific homicidal trauma, it's almost like you're in philosophy
27:21
Speaker 1: class at that point in time. They're going back to
27:23
Speaker 1: reinforce their original argument, which is the manner of the
27:26
Speaker 1: classification of the death, where they're saying, this is, in
27:28
Speaker 1: fact a homicide. And let me state it once more
27:30
Speaker 1: for those in the back, this is non specific homicidal trauma.
27:34
Speaker 1: We know that trauma took place, we know that they're
27:36
Speaker 1: brought about the death of this individual, and not only that,
27:39
Speaker 1: we know that it was the death at the hands
27:42
Speaker 1: of another. And that's essentially how you define homicide. And
27:45
Speaker 1: as a little aside here, like when I teach the
27:48
Speaker 1: Manners of Death, I warn my classes in advance, I
27:52
Speaker 1: don't want to hear them use the term murder, because
27:55
Speaker 1: murder is a lawyer's word, and you find it in
27:58
Speaker 1: the canon of law in various states. You might hear
28:02
Speaker 1: first degree homicide or first degree murder. Murder has a
28:06
Speaker 1: very kind of theatrical tone to it, but homicide is
28:09
Speaker 1: very clinical. It just from a scientific standpoint, you're saying,
28:13
Speaker 1: in fact that it is death at the hands of
28:16
Speaker 1: another that one person brought about the death of another.
28:19
Speaker 1: You're not necessarily judging. You're not being the judge and
28:22
Speaker 1: the jury here. You're essentially saying, I believe, based upon
28:27
Speaker 1: my experience, that this death came at the hands of
28:30
Speaker 1: another individual, and that's it. You're not trying to indict
28:35
Speaker 1: anybody or impugning anybody or anything like that. You're just
28:38
Speaker 1: merely saying that this death. And listen, there's all manner
28:42
Speaker 1: of homicides out there that you can have somebody comes
28:44
Speaker 1: into your home and they're threatening you with violence and
28:50
Speaker 1: you might have to shoot that individual. That's still a homicide.
28:54
Speaker 1: It's still a homicide. As if you have somebody that's
28:57
Speaker 1: attacked on a darkened street in the middle of the
28:59
Speaker 1: night and they're being to death over the contents of
29:01
Speaker 1: their pockets, that's a homicide as well. Somebody that dies,
29:06
Speaker 1: for instance, as a result of the death penalty, how
29:08
Speaker 1: are you going to classify that, Well, that's a homicide.
29:12
Speaker 1: There's no other way to really term it. So we've
29:14
Speaker 1: only got five things that we can choose from for
29:17
Speaker 1: a classification, and sometimes within those classifications, from a scientific standpoint,
29:23
Speaker 1: we don't have much more to hang our hat on scientifically,
29:28
Speaker 1: other than the fact that we've got a remain that
29:31
Speaker 1: has a cremaine as we would call it, that has
29:33
Speaker 1: been rendered down purposefully it would appear, and that there
29:37
Speaker 1: was a bunch of blood found in the house that
29:39
Speaker 1: would be consistent with someone having done harm to this individual.
30:04
Speaker 1: You hear the term reactionary many times. I don't know
30:07
Speaker 1: how do we react under certain circumstances when stress is
30:11
Speaker 1: placed upon us. You know, many times we're still paying
30:13
Speaker 1: the price many years down the road in our lives collectively,
30:18
Speaker 1: as a result of decisions that we made reactively right
30:23
Speaker 1: and thinking about this case, this almost smacks of a
30:27
Speaker 1: reactionary event. Like I said earlier, it's a very disordered,
30:31
Speaker 1: kind of disorganized, it seems for Nedick. Police said there
30:37
Speaker 1: was a struggle, a great struggle in the home. Ian
30:40
Speaker 1: Bounat told police that his ex wife came to his home.
30:44
Speaker 1: They got into an argument over another woman, but he
30:47
Speaker 1: didn't want to fight, so he went to sleep and
30:50
Speaker 1: when he woke up, Katie was gone. So there's one
30:53
Speaker 1: inconsistency in his story. But as police searched his property
30:58
Speaker 1: and his record, they found he faced a domestic battery
31:02
Speaker 1: charge last year for strangulation. Now ultimately that case ended
31:07
Speaker 1: up being promped, but he was charged with strangling someone.
31:11
Speaker 1: But as police continued to search his home under their warrant,
31:16
Speaker 1: they found several let's say, suspicious substances. Yeah, they did.
31:22
Speaker 1: What was found, according to the police, were a number
31:25
Speaker 1: of vials of steroids that could be injected essentially, and
31:32
Speaker 1: these were being held illegally. Steroids have to be prescribed,
31:37
Speaker 1: and in this particular case, it's almost as if you
31:40
Speaker 1: wonder if somebody that was in possession of these number
31:44
Speaker 1: of vials that he had, was he possessing these in
31:47
Speaker 1: order for personal use or did he possess them in
31:49
Speaker 1: order to distribute. Of course, that's a question that the
31:52
Speaker 1: prosecutor would have to answer. But we do know that
31:59
Speaker 1: the husband in was bodybuilder. He had competed certainly at
32:03
Speaker 1: a national level. Bodybuilding and for motion of growth of
32:07
Speaker 1: muscle many times from an artificial standpoint, is attained through
32:13
Speaker 1: the use of antibolic steroids. So you kind of have
32:17
Speaker 1: to understand, you know, what the purpose is. You have antibolic,
32:21
Speaker 1: which actually means growth, and then you have catabolic, which
32:25
Speaker 1: means deterioration or reduction. So with antibolic antabolic steroids that
32:31
Speaker 1: you would apply from muscle growth, it's actually what it is.
32:35
Speaker 1: It's synthetic testosterone, and the people have success with it,
32:41
Speaker 1: I mean, and it's been used certainly therapeutically over the years,
32:46
Speaker 1: for say, for instance, with people that have diminished issues
32:49
Speaker 1: where they're trying to attain growth or recover say diminished muscle.
32:55
Speaker 1: But many times these are abused and they're tremendous side
32:59
Speaker 1: effects come along with this. You can have them in
33:02
Speaker 1: two separate ways. First off, with the use of the
33:05
Speaker 1: abolic steroids, you can wind up having serious heart complications.
33:10
Speaker 1: There's adverse reaction that leads to heightened cholesterol in the system.
33:16
Speaker 1: You can also have other systemic issues that a company
33:20
Speaker 1: abuse of it. But also I think one of the
33:23
Speaker 1: things that people are most familiar with, I think is
33:26
Speaker 1: this concept of what people have termed as roid rage.
33:31
Speaker 1: When anambolic steroids are introduced into the system, it impacts
33:37
Speaker 1: the limbic system in the brain. And the limbic system
33:42
Speaker 1: is not some people call it the limbic gland, but
33:44
Speaker 1: it's not actually a gland. The system kind of ranges
33:47
Speaker 1: throughout various areas in the brain, But what it comes
33:50
Speaker 1: down to is that these centers within the brain, the
33:54
Speaker 1: limbic system, can actually control our emotion, our ability to
33:58
Speaker 1: kind of contain our self relative to being in a
34:01
Speaker 1: passive spot in life or maybe being highly aggressive. So
34:05
Speaker 1: we know what this means aggressive And there were big
34:09
Speaker 1: neon letters of flash across the sky as soon as
34:12
Speaker 1: you said that, saying roid rage, roid rage, roid rage?
34:17
Speaker 1: What is roid rage and what causes it? How do
34:22
Speaker 1: steroids turn you into the incredible hulk? That's probably the
34:27
Speaker 1: first image that that really conjures up for all of
34:29
Speaker 1: us that you're going to be stimulated to this point
34:32
Speaker 1: and you actually see this aggression that will manifest itself
34:36
Speaker 1: through steroid abuse, particularly those that are doing it habitually.
34:40
Speaker 1: They kind of work at a very high level many
34:43
Speaker 1: times as it impacts the brain. When the antabolic steroid
34:48
Speaker 1: is applied, not only are you going to have muscle
34:51
Speaker 1: growth and you will see results as a result of that,
34:55
Speaker 1: but it's also impacting the brain. And when people are
34:59
Speaker 1: working out, this steroid slams into the brain, slams into
35:04
Speaker 1: it at a chemical level and impacts limbic system in
35:06
Speaker 1: the brain. You have this kind of aggressive nature that
35:10
Speaker 1: will manifest itself in many, many people. And look, that's
35:14
Speaker 1: that's something I would think that if you're working out
35:16
Speaker 1: in the gym, many people look at the weights as
35:18
Speaker 1: something to attack and they go after it, and they've
35:21
Speaker 1: seen substantial growth from a muscle standpoint. Now this is
35:24
Speaker 1: being promoted physiologically, you know the reaction with the muscles,
35:28
Speaker 1: you're having growth, but also with this this kind of
35:32
Speaker 1: animalistic rage that's impacting the limbic system. This is actually
35:36
Speaker 1: the primal brain. People call it lizard brain, and even
35:40
Speaker 1: reptiles have this limbic system within their brain and it
35:44
Speaker 1: goes to aggression that you see. And so we have
35:47
Speaker 1: this and it's rooted in our primal brain. A matter
35:49
Speaker 1: of fact, they think the limbic system actually developed before
35:53
Speaker 1: our frontal brain. Did you know that gives us kind
35:56
Speaker 1: of higher function. So it's very primal, it's very base,
35:59
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. And so if that is constantly
36:02
Speaker 1: stimulated as a result of the presence of the substance
36:05
Speaker 1: in a system, wouldn't it be difficult even with those
36:10
Speaker 1: that you love to kind of dial it back if
36:13
Speaker 1: you've got this external stimulus is coming into the system.
36:17
Speaker 1: Those that you should be kind and gentle and long
36:20
Speaker 1: suffering with, perhaps they're not going to have that in
36:23
Speaker 1: their life. They're going to be dealing with somebody that
36:26
Speaker 1: could potentially be a monster. So when we talk about
36:29
Speaker 1: royd rage, we're not talking about not being able to
36:32
Speaker 1: control yourself. Correct, We're not talking about that. We're talking
36:36
Speaker 1: about this influence of a substance that comes into a
36:39
Speaker 1: system where it's not simply you've got impulse control issues
36:45
Speaker 1: for instance, okay, which might be a naturally occurring condition
36:49
Speaker 1: that an individual has, and that's not what we're talking about.
36:52
Speaker 1: We're talking about somebody that takes a substance that comes
36:55
Speaker 1: into their system and it actually changes their nature. Change
37:00
Speaker 1: is how they react, you see, like heightened Obviously issues
37:04
Speaker 1: with anger that can be set off very very easy.
37:07
Speaker 1: I mean, by the most benign type of thing that
37:11
Speaker 1: can occur. They've become And here's one that a lot
37:13
Speaker 1: of people don't really realize that it stimulates this area
37:16
Speaker 1: of the brain, the area kind of controls the jealousy.
37:19
Speaker 1: So even the smallest little slight or perception of a
37:23
Speaker 1: slight that they might have can be something that just
37:26
Speaker 1: suddenly explodes relative to their perception. Like, for instance, if
37:30
Speaker 1: two people are involved in a relationship, an individual is
37:33
Speaker 1: dealing with this antabolic steroid in their system. A partner
37:37
Speaker 1: looking over to glance at another person could be in
37:40
Speaker 1: their mind perceived as though that individual is having an
37:44
Speaker 1: affair with that person. It can be that over the top,
37:47
Speaker 1: or if you just casually say hello to somebody, it
37:51
Speaker 1: can actually trigger this ugly, ugly monster of jealousy within
37:55
Speaker 1: them and that can lead to a very violent reaction.
37:59
Speaker 1: So the amount of steroids used, because we do know,
38:04
Speaker 1: I mean we've almost everybody has seen or known someone
38:09
Speaker 1: through the years that have had to use steroids at
38:12
Speaker 1: some point for an injury or an asthma ailment or
38:16
Speaker 1: whatever's going on with your body as a treatment, is
38:20
Speaker 1: that the dosage is that the general misuse is that
38:25
Speaker 1: the application what causes roid rage. When you're talking about
38:30
Speaker 1: application of steroids to treatment, there's not only antibolic steroids.
38:34
Speaker 1: They're a variety of different types of steroids that are
38:37
Speaker 1: out there. You know, you mentioned asthma, Well, that's not
38:40
Speaker 1: the same as the treatment that you would apply for
38:42
Speaker 1: that is not going to be the same as an
38:45
Speaker 1: antibolic steroids they're all purposed for a different reason. All
38:48
Speaker 1: of them have their upside and they all have their downside. Unfortunately,
38:51
Speaker 1: with antibolic steroids, it's meant to enhance your ability to
38:55
Speaker 1: build muscles. Specifically, that's not something that you're going to
38:59
Speaker 1: apply in order to treat other conditions. This is specifically
39:04
Speaker 1: targeted to create and encourage muscle growth in individuals. Unfortunately,
39:10
Speaker 1: the side effect with the antibolic steroid is how it
39:15
Speaker 1: impacts the brain and your ability to act and react.
39:20
Speaker 1: So what has happened is that you've removed the governor
39:24
Speaker 1: okay out of your brain, that thing that kind of
39:28
Speaker 1: controls how you're going to behave, what is acceptable, and
39:32
Speaker 1: how you're going to behave That the Governor's off on
39:35
Speaker 1: that thing. And so that's what makes individuals that are
39:39
Speaker 1: suffering from roid rage, as it's been termed, that's what
39:42
Speaker 1: makes them so unpredictable and so very dangerous. I think
39:46
Speaker 1: to people, even around individuals that they love very much,
39:50
Speaker 1: it can make you angry enough that you would dismember
39:54
Speaker 1: someone that you've loved and destroy their body. Yes, yeah, absolutely,
39:58
Speaker 1: it can get you to the point where you would
40:01
Speaker 1: commit a homicide. And that's the shame in it all.
40:05
Speaker 1: It can get you to the point where you become
40:07
Speaker 1: an individual that people don't want to have anything to
40:10
Speaker 1: do with because they know that the slightest little thing
40:12
Speaker 1: can be misinterpreted. You can fly off the handle very quickly.
40:17
Speaker 1: So it compromises a lot of different areas in your life,
40:19
Speaker 1: your ability to certainly communicate with those that you're in
40:22
Speaker 1: an indiment or relationship with, whether it's your your spouse,
40:25
Speaker 1: or you know, that loving relationship you have with your kids,
40:28
Speaker 1: or kind of friendly relationship you have with those that
40:31
Speaker 1: you work with. You're unpredictable. You don't know what's going
40:35
Speaker 1: to happen with these individuals at any moment time, and
40:38
Speaker 1: so it's not too far of a step beyond that
40:41
Speaker 1: where you could actually take somebody's life. Ian Bonoc is
40:45
Speaker 1: six feet three inches tall. He weighs two hundred and
40:48
Speaker 1: fifty pounds, and he has competed in the IFBB Master's
40:54
Speaker 1: National Bodybuilding Championship. He is now charged with the murder
41:00
Speaker 1: of his ex wife. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this
41:08
Speaker 1: is Bodybags