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Paths to Publication—Pros, Cons & Life Lessons · Reality Writes

0:05
Ellie Alexander: Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Reality Writes.
0:09
Ellie Alexander: I am author Ellie Alexander, and this is the podcast where we talk about all things writer-ish, bookish, we go behind the scenes, we talk about the publishing industry, our favorite reads, and today I am back again with the tech guy.
0:24
Tech Guy: Hello, hello.
0:25
Tech Guy: And today we're going to cover a topic that I think will be of great interest to both writers and readers, honestly, uh, because this is something that you constantly get questions about uh from both writers and readers.
0:40
Tech Guy: Uh they it's just about the publishing industry and the different paths to publication for writers.
0:47
Ellie Alexander: Yes, we're gonna dive into the different paths of publication.
0:50
Ellie Alexander: We're gonna talk about pros and cons for each path.
0:54
Ellie Alexander: And, you know, my talking point always, especially when I'm working with new writers and coaching writers and talking about options for them after they've finished a book and sometimes even before they've finished a book.
1:06
Ellie Alexander: Honestly, that's often one of the first questions that come up in my coaching sessions is well, what's the best path to publication?
1:14
Ellie Alexander: And my answer is, I don't know because it's so unique and there isn't one perfect path.
1:20
Ellie Alexander: Every single route to getting your book out in the world has pros and cons.
1:25
Ellie Alexander: And that's just the way it is.
1:26
Ellie Alexander: So sometimes it's about choosing and reflecting and thinking, what's the best best path for me?
1:31
Ellie Alexander: Sometimes it appears out of necessity.
1:34
Ellie Alexander: Like, so there are there are so many things to unpack.
1:37
Ellie Alexander: But I think this is also an interesting topic for the darlings out there who are readers, because you'll probably learn a lot in terms of what authors can and cannot do based on how their books are published, because there are some real big differences.
1:52
Tech Guy: And the amount of work that your favorite authors have to go to to get their books out into your hands.
1:58
Tech Guy: Because regardless of which path you do choose, being a writer is a lot more about a lot more than just writing.
2:07
Tech Guy: So exactly.
2:08
Tech Guy: How about if we start with the pros of the paths to publication?
2:14
Tech Guy: So, what are some of the pros of traditional publishing?
2:18
Ellie Alexander: Yeah.
2:18
Ellie Alexander: So we're gonna break this down into three paths, which is sort of where I think the market is right now.
2:24
Ellie Alexander: So traditional publishing would be going with a big publishing house, of which there are about four these days, like McMillan, Simon and Schuster, Penguin, Random House, Berkeley.
2:36
Ellie Alexander: So big big publishing is traditional publishing.
2:39
Ellie Alexander: Hybrid is somewhere in the middle.
2:41
Ellie Alexander: So lots of smaller presses, independent presses, presses that are doing digital only.
2:48
Ellie Alexander: And then uh the third route would be completely going indie and independently publishing yourself.
2:55
Ellie Alexander: So you are the author and the publisher.
2:57
Ellie Alexander: So yeah, if we start with traditional publishing, again, just to repeat, that would be the big publishing houses.
3:04
Ellie Alexander: One of the first pros is you get an advance.
3:07
Ellie Alexander: So you're getting paid money up front to write the book.
3:11
Ellie Alexander: And this is really the only path to publication where that happens.
3:15
Ellie Alexander: Now, before you see, like, you know, lovely dollar signs in your eyes and you slip into that dreamlike wonder of being whisked away by limos with champagne and caviar, advances range wildly, right?
3:30
Ellie Alexander: So an advance might be a couple thousand dollars.
3:33
Ellie Alexander: An advance could be six figures, an advance could be over a million dollars if a book goes to auction and you have tons of publishing houses that are fighting for it.
3:42
Ellie Alexander: Now, that's the rarity, but it does happen.
3:45
Ellie Alexander: I would say the most common thing, especially in genre fiction or series writing, is you're gonna get a small advance, you know, a few thousand dollars to work on the book.
3:54
Ellie Alexander: This is why I always say do not quit your day job right away, because I don't know many of us who can live on a couple thousand dollars for a year or so before your book is even gonna hit bookstores.
4:07
Tech Guy: Yeah.
4:07
Tech Guy: So the advance is the first pro of being a traditionally published author.
4:12
Tech Guy: I actually have an inkling that the advance might show up in the cons section too when we get to the show.
4:19
Ellie Alexander: Oh, interesting.
4:19
Ellie Alexander: Well, I don't know.
4:20
Ellie Alexander: We'll see.
4:21
Ellie Alexander: Okay.
4:22
Tech Guy: What what's next on the list for a uh pro for traditional publishing?
4:27
Ellie Alexander: I think one of the big pros, and this this comes up a lot when I'm coaching writers, is complete editorial support.
4:34
Ellie Alexander: So if you are signed and you have a contract with a traditional publishing house, every phase of the book is going to have editorial support.
4:44
Ellie Alexander: It's a real team collaborative effort.
4:46
Ellie Alexander: So that means starting off with potentially brainstorming book ideas and working through outlines and plot points and character developments before you even write or finish the book, some in some cases.
4:58
Ellie Alexander: Or if you're coming in with a finished manuscript, that might mean an editorial letter from your editor where they're going to point out things that are really working, where the manuscript is shining, areas to strengthen.
5:11
Ellie Alexander: That will also mean copy edits and page proofs and beta readers and someone who's putting together a style guide.
5:18
Ellie Alexander: So you have an entire team that is doing the editing piece for you.
5:24
Ellie Alexander: Now, you are still involved in that editing piece.
5:27
Ellie Alexander: All of those notes come back to you as the author, and you have to incorporate and work with the team.
5:31
Ellie Alexander: So it's not like they magically happen for you, but you have support in that process.
5:37
Tech Guy: You also have to debate those points that come back too, right?
5:41
Tech Guy: I mean, I know that you've run into that personally, where you do have this team that is doing all of this work, but you don't necessarily agree with everything they have to say all the time.
5:50
Ellie Alexander: Right.
5:50
Ellie Alexander: And this comes up a lot, especially in some of the more minutiae of copy edits, you know, where you as the author then have to decide, like, okay, am I making a choice here without?
5:58
Ellie Alexander: Or sometimes an edit means a complete rewrite.
6:02
Ellie Alexander: And so you might have written one book, and then once it's farther along in the process, the editorial team decides, like, no, actually, we want you to write this.
6:09
Ellie Alexander: And so then you have to decide as the author, like, am I willing to do that?
6:12
Ellie Alexander: If you've signed a contract, you're kind of on the hook to do that.
6:15
Ellie Alexander: And and then we're deep, we're going deep into the con phase.
6:17
Ellie Alexander: But I as a pro, as a general rule, just keep it positive.
6:21
Ellie Alexander: Yeah, that's right.
6:22
Ellie Alexander: We're on the pro side.
6:23
Ellie Alexander: As a pro, having an editorial team and support and people who are invested in your work is a major gift.
6:30
Tech Guy: Yeah, definitely.
6:31
Tech Guy: I'm going to guess that there's something about distribution next on the list.
6:37
Ellie Alexander: Dun dun dun dun.
6:38
Ellie Alexander: Yes.
6:39
Ellie Alexander: This is another major pro of going with a traditional publishing contract.
6:45
Ellie Alexander: Traditional publishing houses have sales representatives whose entire job it is to go to different regions of the country, internationally, you name it, and place your book in bookstores.
6:57
Ellie Alexander: They have partnerships with libraries.
6:59
Ellie Alexander: They are able then to sell and perhaps get you a giant print run that puts you in like one of the big box stores, like Walmart or a Costco feature.
7:10
Ellie Alexander: So you, as the author, are not having to go store by store, library by library, and make independent asks of people to carry your book.
7:19
Ellie Alexander: You have a team of people who do that.
7:21
Ellie Alexander: And likely, if you're with one of the major houses, anywhere you go then, which is always so fun for us, if we're traveling, where I'm like, oh gosh, we're in the middle of a town that I've never been to.
7:31
Ellie Alexander: And look, there's my book on the shelf.
7:32
Ellie Alexander: And I didn't have any part of that.
7:34
Ellie Alexander: I mean, I wrote the book, but I I'm not involved in seeing where it ends up then.
7:39
Tech Guy: Yeah, and that's super fun too, because uh I can tell you from many uh business travels of my own.
7:47
Tech Guy: I will always stop into bookstores and I uh they probably think I'm the crazy weird dude that's just standing there and because somebody will walk up and I'll be like, that's my wife.
7:57
Tech Guy: That's a she wrote those books.
7:58
Tech Guy: Yeah.
7:59
Ellie Alexander: And they're like, okay, buddy.
8:02
Tech Guy: Slowly backing away.
8:03
Tech Guy: Yeah.
8:04
Tech Guy: Yeah.
8:05
Tech Guy: But uh, but yes, distribution is a huge pro of the traditional publishing path.
8:10
Tech Guy: Absolutely.
8:11
Tech Guy: All right.
8:12
Tech Guy: What's what's next on the list for traditional publishing?
8:15
Ellie Alexander: I have one more on my list, only because you know, this podcast could otherwise be 12 hours long if we did a deep dive into and and at some point we can.
8:23
Ellie Alexander: And I'd love to hear from you, darlings, if you have other questions after you've listened to this episode.
8:27
Ellie Alexander: But I think one of the other big pros of being with a traditional house is the publicity team.
8:34
Ellie Alexander: So in addition to the editorial team, the distribution team, you also have a publicity team who is going to work on your behalf and do things that might seem simple but take hours of work and time and money.
8:47
Ellie Alexander: And that would be getting your book up on NetGalle for early reviews.
8:51
Ellie Alexander: And then, of course, the publishing houses have teams of early reviewers who might already like rom coms or mysteries or sci-fi's or whatever sci-fi or whatever you're writing in.
9:00
Ellie Alexander: And so they're gonna send that book to those people.
9:02
Ellie Alexander: They're gonna create um advanced reader copies, they're gonna send that to bookstores, they're gonna do marketing campaigns for you, online advertising, blurbs, awards, the networking um that comes with being with a team of people and in the industry is really invaluable, especially when you're starting out.
9:23
Tech Guy: Absolutely.
9:23
Tech Guy: And a really recent and timely example of that is your 23 bakes, uh, you know, from the bake shop mystery series.
9:33
Tech Guy: So for the darlings out there who don't know, head to Ellie's social media channels, um, Facebook, Instagram, et cetera, and you'll see all the images with recipes from the 23 books in the series leading up to Pumpkin Vice Cafe.
9:47
Tech Guy: And the all those images, thankfully, were made by the publisher.
9:53
Tech Guy: Uh, because if they hadn't been, I would have been making all of those images.
9:58
Tech Guy: So definitely I would absolutely second the fact that publicity is a pro of the traditional publishing route.
10:06
Ellie Alexander: And if you're listening this week, darlings, there is a Goodreads giveaway where my publishing house is giving away 50 copies, early copies of the Pumpkin Vice Cafe.
10:15
Ellie Alexander: So you can head over and do that.
10:16
Ellie Alexander: They're doing a a pre-order campaign where you can win a whole Pumpkin Vice tort-themed gift.
10:22
Ellie Alexander: So those sorts of projects, like you're saying, like not only is there a cost associated with them, but it's a lot of time and time that I wouldn't be writing, or you know, I would have to be leaning on you or somebody else in my life to do that piece for me.
10:37
Tech Guy: Yeah, it it has been a an absolute uh pro for sure that you know, we've gotten the help that we have from the traditional publishers.
10:47
Tech Guy: And uh again, my thanks go out to them for making all the social media graphics.
10:52
Ellie Alexander: Yes.
10:53
Ellie Alexander: Okay, should we move into the hybrid space?
10:57
Tech Guy: Yeah, actually, a quick aside here because I learned something today, which is, you know, I I learn stuff all the time, but it's uh so I can actually say that Reality Writes is an educational program because when you came to me with this topic idea and you said, you know, traditional publishing and indie publishing and hybrid, I assumed hybrid was just authors like yourself who are traditionally published, but who have also done indie publishing as well.
11:27
Tech Guy: Uh, I didn't realize that we're actually talking about publishers themselves that are hybrid.
11:34
Ellie Alexander: Yeah, I mean, and and the the first point is also true.
11:37
Ellie Alexander: There, that I think the term is used, obviously, for writers who are doing both.
11:41
Ellie Alexander: But there's this new space in the world.
11:43
Ellie Alexander: And um, my team at Storm would be a good example of it, where you have publishers who are really taking the model of independent publishing, and that looks like dynamic pricing for ebooks and you know, partnerships with KU and faster timelines, things like that.
12:01
Ellie Alexander: And so they're modeling that, but yet they still have all of the editorial support that you're getting from a traditional contract.
12:09
Ellie Alexander: So um, that's what I think of.
12:11
Tech Guy: You you might say that they're taking it by storm.
12:14
Ellie Alexander: Oh, but um bum bum.
12:15
Ellie Alexander: I'm gonna send that to my editor.
12:17
Ellie Alexander: She'll love it.
12:17
Ellie Alexander: They'll probably use that as their tagline from here on out.
12:19
Ellie Alexander: Okay.
12:20
Ellie Alexander: So, with um a smaller publishing house, a hybrid house that's doing like maybe digital first, and then POD print on demand runs to near that.
12:31
Ellie Alexander: Uh, you are going one of the big pros is you are going to get a bigger royalty share.
12:37
Ellie Alexander: So you're likely not to get advanced money up front.
12:40
Ellie Alexander: You might get a little advanced money depending, because these sort of mid-size publishers, hybrid publishers, uh, they can range.
12:48
Ellie Alexander: You know, maybe it's somebody or it's a house that has hundreds and hundreds of authors, or it could be a house that only works with a few dozen authors.
12:57
Ellie Alexander: So there's there's big space within this part of the market.
13:01
Ellie Alexander: But as a general rule, you are not getting advanced money up front, but your royalty rate is much higher.
13:08
Ellie Alexander: So we're talking like 50% of your royalty share might be split with these houses versus 15% in a traditional publishing contract.
13:18
Tech Guy: Interesting.
13:19
Tech Guy: Okay.
13:19
Tech Guy: So I that makes sense.
13:21
Tech Guy: I understand why that term is now is used for both uh the authors and the publishers.
13:27
Ellie Alexander: So uh one of the next pros that I think is great about working with potentially a smaller or more mid-sized house, somebody or a publishing house that's more hybrid, is it's highly collaborative, usually.
13:39
Ellie Alexander: So you have editorial relationships where you're getting a lot more hands-on work because they don't necessarily have thousands and thousands of authors, and it's not a giant corporation that's, you know, running the business.
13:53
Ellie Alexander: You have more one-on-one support.
13:56
Ellie Alexander: You are probably working directly with your editor because you don't necessarily have to have an agent to go directly to these more mid-size houses.
14:05
Ellie Alexander: Um, and so that part is really nice.
14:06
Ellie Alexander: You still have the same editorial support.
14:09
Ellie Alexander: So, no, you're not getting an advance up front.
14:11
Ellie Alexander: You're getting a bigger royalty share.
14:13
Ellie Alexander: And then these houses are still doing all of the other things.
14:18
Ellie Alexander: So that would be cover design, edits, copy edits, page proofs, formatting, all of that stuff is still part of the package that the publisher is providing for you as the author.
14:30
Tech Guy: Interesting.
14:30
Tech Guy: You mentioned covers.
14:31
Tech Guy: Is that a pro for hybrid publishers?
14:35
Ellie Alexander: I think it can be a pro because again, because these tend to be smaller than the big traditional houses, you might have more input on your cover art and design.
14:47
Ellie Alexander: Now, again, it's it can vary depending on what house you end up with, but you likely might be able to have a little bit more pull or sway in terms of how you're feeling about the cover art.
15:00
Ellie Alexander: Um, your voice heard in that.
15:02
Ellie Alexander: With big traditional publishing, that doesn't always happen.
15:04
Ellie Alexander: It's like this is the cover, we're going with it, we know what works, and no notes.
15:09
Ellie Alexander: No, I've had authors who have been published by mid-size and hybrid publishers, and uh, you know, they didn't love cover art and they didn't get a say in it either.
15:18
Ellie Alexander: So again, it it depends.
15:20
Ellie Alexander: But generally speaking, you are going to potentially have more input on that part of the process.
15:26
Tech Guy: Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
15:28
Tech Guy: Um, I know we'll save it for the con, but I I know where we're going with that one in terms of cons.
15:35
Ellie Alexander: I know I'm keeping it, I'm keeping it pro.
15:36
Ellie Alexander: Come on, tech guy.
15:37
Tech Guy: You gotta keep it positive, gotta keep it positive.
15:39
Tech Guy: Okay, that's what's what's next for the the pro list for hybrid.
15:43
Ellie Alexander: I would say one of the last pros for not last, but you know, on my list uh for hybrid is a faster path to publication.
15:52
Ellie Alexander: So books are likely coming out four to six months apart, maybe sooner, depending on how fast you are writing as the writer.
15:59
Ellie Alexander: And, you know, a lot of times what they will do is they will stack books.
16:03
Ellie Alexander: So, for example, when I launched the secret bookcase mysteries, I worked for a year or two in the background on the first three books.
16:11
Ellie Alexander: And then what they did was a rapid release.
16:14
Ellie Alexander: So they saved book one, two, and three.
16:16
Ellie Alexander: They were all sort of like bundled and ready to go.
16:18
Ellie Alexander: And instead of doing a slow release where maybe a book comes out once a year, every 18 months, even every six months apart, they release book one, then book two right away, and book three two or three months later.
16:30
Ellie Alexander: And they tend to do that with authors because it's an easier way for you to then start really developing fans and a readership.
16:37
Tech Guy: And it's also great for the readers who are mega consumers of content because the books are coming out faster.
16:45
Tech Guy: You don't need to wait a year in between for the next book to come out.
16:50
Tech Guy: I'm I'm look, I'm looking at you, Martha Wells, like Murderbot.
16:53
Tech Guy: Yeah, where's the next Murderbot?
16:55
Ellie Alexander: Murderbot, let's go.
16:56
Ellie Alexander: The new season's coming out.
16:58
Ellie Alexander: Uh, the one thing I would say about that too, that's been surprising from my side as the author is writing a series um where you know things are coming out in a tighter timeline has helped me too, because I'm staying in that world for longer.
17:12
Ellie Alexander: So I don't have to do as much like read through to be like, okay, wait, I have to center myself back and where do we leave off?
17:18
Ellie Alexander: Um, so that's been a pro.
17:19
Ellie Alexander: And then uh there's also more adaptability.
17:23
Ellie Alexander: Uh, because you don't have a giant corporation that you're dragging along, kind of you're the publishing house is able to be a bit more nimble or say, like, oh wow, this trend is really working, or we're liking this cover art.
17:35
Ellie Alexander: Why don't we try this?
17:36
Ellie Alexander: Or swapping out keywords and marketing plans.
17:39
Ellie Alexander: So there's more flexibility.
17:42
Tech Guy: Interesting.
17:43
Tech Guy: All right, let's move on to pros of being an indie author or being published independently.
17:52
Ellie Alexander: Yes.
17:53
Ellie Alexander: I think the key thing for indie is you have the biggest royalty share.
17:59
Ellie Alexander: So you, as the author, are going to retain the most amount of profit long term for your books over any other path to publication, hands down.
18:10
Ellie Alexander: Uh, and that's big, especially if you are building out a long career over time.
18:15
Ellie Alexander: That's really going to add up.
18:16
Ellie Alexander: You're not going to get an advance because you're doing the publishing yourself, but you're going to retain like 75, 80% of your royalties.
18:25
Ellie Alexander: So that can really add up quickly once you have five or six, seven, eight books on the shelf.
18:30
Tech Guy: Definitely.
18:30
Tech Guy: And there's just no one else to split the money with other than the whichever, whichever uh service you're using, I guess, to publish the books.
18:41
Ellie Alexander: Yes.
18:41
Ellie Alexander: You are also going to have full editorial control, full cover design control.
18:48
Ellie Alexander: It's you.
18:48
Ellie Alexander: So if you, you know, I've used the example before of not loving my original covers for uh the Meg series, which they they were fine.
18:56
Ellie Alexander: They did what they needed to do, but I had a vision in my head, especially as a new first-time author.
19:01
Ellie Alexander: Uh, you, as an independent author, you get to bring that vision to life.
19:06
Ellie Alexander: There's no one else to give you notes about that.
19:08
Ellie Alexander: If you get feedback from beta readers or a professional freelance editor that you've hired that you don't like, you get to choose not to incorporate any of that feedback.
19:19
Ellie Alexander: Whereas if you have a traditional publishing contract and you get feedback, you're gonna have to have a conversation with your editor and find common ground until you both land on the book that the publisher has agreed to publish.
19:32
Ellie Alexander: Uh, it can be the fastest path to publication.
19:36
Ellie Alexander: You would write a book and have it published the next day.
19:39
Ellie Alexander: Should you do that?
19:40
Ellie Alexander: No, please don't.
19:41
Ellie Alexander: But can you?
19:42
Ellie Alexander: Yeah, technically.
19:44
Tech Guy: Yeah, because you're the one who picks the release date, right?
19:48
Tech Guy: So there's no one else telling you, no, you can't release it next Tuesday.
19:52
Tech Guy: Uh but you know, again, maybe make sure all the bases are covered before you do that.
19:57
Tech Guy: But you could then release the second book if you were done with it the following day if you wanted to.
20:03
Tech Guy: You just you have full control over that.
20:06
Ellie Alexander: And there have been indie authors who have found great success doing that because they know, oh, my readers can read this book in two hours.
20:12
Ellie Alexander: So getting the next one a day later is uh yes, that's a solid yes.
20:16
Ellie Alexander: I think another huge pro to indie publishing is you have automatic access to all of the back-end data.
20:24
Ellie Alexander: So this would be sales.
20:26
Ellie Alexander: You can look and see hour by hour, which again could be a bad thing if you're obsessive and you're like clicking to see like you might need to walk away from the computer screen, but you have access to all of the sales data.
20:37
Ellie Alexander: You have access, and this is a big one I know for you, to targeted ads.
20:41
Ellie Alexander: Like if you're if you're working with a traditional publisher, you're not gonna get any of that information.
20:47
Ellie Alexander: And your royalties are only gonna come twice a year and they'll just be sort of line items.
20:52
Ellie Alexander: So we've had so many conversations over the years of like, well, I have no idea if, you know, that baking video move the needle at all.
21:00
Ellie Alexander: Whereas if you are indie published, you can track exactly where your ad dollars have gone.
21:05
Tech Guy: Yes.
21:05
Tech Guy: And the so the pros kind of stack up in in this regard for indie uh being the the the indie path of publication, in that you do you already earn the highest percentage, but having the access to this data is so powerful because any marketing effort you make, you can track back to sales or or at least understand.
21:31
Tech Guy: If you can't track back to individual sales, you can understand, like, okay, I did this on this date, and on this date, I saw a spike in sales.
21:40
Tech Guy: You can, it's a reasonable assumption then that whatever marketing vehicle you launched out into the world had an impact on sales.
21:48
Tech Guy: And you can't do that really with the other paths necessarily, because you you still want to do the marketing, you definitely do, but you just don't like the indie.
21:59
Tech Guy: Path has the best flexibility and power when it comes to being able to see those stats.
22:06
Ellie Alexander: And same for sales numbers, because if you're somebody who is trying to earn a living exclusively off your writing, it's really scary to not know in six months, did I sell two books or did I sell 2,000 or 200,000?
22:19
Ellie Alexander: Like you don't have access to any of that data if you are on the traditional route.
22:24
Ellie Alexander: So it's really hard to then budget or figure out like, okay, am I gonna need to get a part-time job or are things gonna be looking great?
22:33
Tech Guy: Okay.
22:33
Tech Guy: Well, we're we're slipping into the to the negative here a little bit.
22:37
Tech Guy: So let's move on to the cons.
22:38
Tech Guy: Uh let's let's start with the cons of being uh going the traditional route of publication.
22:47
Ellie Alexander: I would say, you know, one of the first cons, and this is something that a lot of authors bump into, is that there are gatekeepers.
22:54
Ellie Alexander: You have to have an agent.
22:56
Ellie Alexander: Traditional publishing houses don't solicit uh queries from unagented writers.
23:01
Ellie Alexander: So it's a whole process that you have to go through first to land an agent, and then for an agent to go and pitch to houses.
23:10
Ellie Alexander: And then for the houses, even if you have an agent, it can be exciting, like, oh, I landed an agent.
23:15
Ellie Alexander: I've had friends and writer clients that have landed agents and then not had their book actually sell.
23:23
Ellie Alexander: And that happens all the time.
23:24
Ellie Alexander: And it doesn't, it's not necessarily reflective of the quality of writing or the story or the plot or anything like that.
23:30
Ellie Alexander: It can just be like where the market is at at the moment, what the publishing house might already have up lined up in the queue.
23:37
Ellie Alexander: They might have four or five books that are just close enough to yours that it's like, oh, we don't really have space for that.
23:42
Ellie Alexander: So uh there are a lot of hoops that you have to jump through and barriers.
23:46
Ellie Alexander: It's definitely the hardest path to publication in terms of actually landing the book deal.
23:53
Ellie Alexander: And then lowest royalty rate.
23:56
Ellie Alexander: So again, to reiterate that, in any traditional contract, you're getting 15%.
24:01
Ellie Alexander: This is true across the board.
24:02
Ellie Alexander: This is not just for me or one specific genre.
24:05
Ellie Alexander: The standard, the industry standard is 15%.
24:08
Ellie Alexander: And then your agent takes another 15%.
24:11
Ellie Alexander: So it's your lowest royalty rate.
24:14
Ellie Alexander: So you have that advance, which is great, but that advance is probably not gonna pay your salary for a year.
24:21
Ellie Alexander: So then you are also getting the lowest return long term.
24:26
Tech Guy: Right.
24:26
Tech Guy: And it becomes a volume game, right?
24:29
Tech Guy: And it's shelf space, uh long game, however you want to describe it.
24:33
Tech Guy: Essentially, you get a lower royalty rate with the promise of selling more books because of that expanded distribution, because of those, you know, review partnerships, all of the things that that uh the engine behind traditional publishing brings.
24:48
Tech Guy: And that's not to say that there aren't massively successful authors in the both the hybrid and indie routes as well, because there are.
24:59
Tech Guy: And there are authors in both of those paths that far exceed authors in the traditional route.
25:05
Tech Guy: Um so there are pros and and cons to to all of them, but that that is a it is for the traditional route, that is a definite con because it's like your royalties are cut several times before they reach your desk.
25:21
Ellie Alexander: And again, to dovetail on your like, you know, it's a long game, it's shelf space.
25:26
Ellie Alexander: I remember my agent saying that early on, like it's gonna take years to build up your shelf space.
25:30
Ellie Alexander: Um, it's also usually the slowest path to publication.
25:34
Ellie Alexander: So I was working with a client uh last year who was like, look, I don't want to do traditional publishing because I'm already retired.
25:42
Ellie Alexander: I don't have that much time left.
25:43
Ellie Alexander: I need to get these books out, which is very valid because, for example, uh my new project that's coming out in January, Murder Moves In, uh, that project has been in the works for almost four years and went through multiple rounds of edits.
25:59
Ellie Alexander: Um, so you might not see your book out in the world for two or three years, maybe longer, uh, after you have actually landed a traditional deal.
26:10
Ellie Alexander: And then the rate at which books come out is also much slower.
26:15
Ellie Alexander: You're not, so let's say, you know, you land a series and you're writing a series, maybe they're coming out every six months.
26:21
Ellie Alexander: That that can be standard, especially for things like a cozy.
26:24
Ellie Alexander: But most of the time we're talking a year between publication for each book.
26:29
Ellie Alexander: So if you're somebody who's like trying to build a series and you're writing full time and you have time to do that, then you might not have the ability to have your books come out any sooner than a year or 18 months apart.
26:42
Ellie Alexander: And in today's market, that that can be challenging.
26:45
Tech Guy: Yes.
26:46
Tech Guy: And just for the darlings out there to understand, too, because of your mention of murder moves in and uh, you know, an almost four-year process, when you talk about the length of time and the and the and it being the slowest and everything, it's not that the that the writing process takes longer for the the traditional uh path to publication.
27:07
Tech Guy: It's that there are is an editorial calendar, number one.
27:12
Tech Guy: So if you're writing a book and the publisher decides, well, this is kind of similar to another book that we're releasing, they may choose to release your book months later.
27:22
Tech Guy: So it could be sitting there ready to go in the box, you know, and just waiting, uh which contributes to the delay.
27:32
Tech Guy: So it's not like I I just want everyone to understand that it's not necessarily that each step takes longer than it does in, you know, with the other paths.
27:40
Tech Guy: It's just that there are a lot of other considerations that go in and and timing and the release calendar is one of the big ones.
27:48
Ellie Alexander: Yes, for sure.
27:49
Ellie Alexander: And I've had multiple experiences where books have been moved, pushed back, push, push forward sometimes, which is a little scary too.
27:55
Tech Guy: Yeah, that's that's a whole different problem.
27:57
Tech Guy: Yeah.
27:57
Tech Guy: Can I bring up uh my favorite con of traditional publication?
28:02
Tech Guy: I know it's one that is if not top of your list, it's like one dot two.
28:07
Tech Guy: Um control over cover design.
28:12
Ellie Alexander: Yes.
28:12
Ellie Alexander: Yep.
28:14
Tech Guy: Or the lack thereof.
28:16
Ellie Alexander: Zero.
28:17
Ellie Alexander: Do you like it?
28:18
Ellie Alexander: No.
28:19
Ellie Alexander: Okay.
28:20
Ellie Alexander: Thanks for your thanks.
28:22
Ellie Alexander: We're we're going with it.
28:23
Ellie Alexander: I mean, usually no, that's not always true.
28:25
Ellie Alexander: And the thing is, this is also dependent on you know where you are in your career, how many books you've published.
28:33
Ellie Alexander: Do you have a long-standing relationship now with a publishing house?
28:35
Ellie Alexander: I have a lot more to say about my covers now than I did, obviously, early on in my career.
28:40
Ellie Alexander: It depends on the house.
28:41
Ellie Alexander: Like some houses that I've worked with have been really interested in feedback and want ideas, some don't want them at all.
28:48
Ellie Alexander: So um, yeah, it can be a mixed bag, but you don't usually have much say over your cover art.
28:54
Ellie Alexander: You're gonna get what you get and not throw a fit.
28:57
Ellie Alexander: And again, they're hiring teams of professional cover artists and designers and they're watching the market and in theory, know what's gonna work for your books.
29:06
Tech Guy: In theory, yes.
29:07
Ellie Alexander: That's why I said in theory.
29:09
Tech Guy: Creative is a very subjective thing, right?
29:13
Tech Guy: So they and and they like to I I I like to think anyway that they the decisions they make are you know backed by data too, because they they do have they being the traditional publishers, do have the sales data to to go behind this.
29:30
Tech Guy: And the other thing is going back to that release calendar, they're also not gonna want to release five books that look very similar to one another.
29:37
Tech Guy: So they're gonna make sure like you may have wanted a blue cover, but if they've got two other books that are blue that are already on the calendar for the same day your book is releasing, your book's gonna be read.
29:47
Tech Guy: It's just gonna happen.
29:48
Tech Guy: Like it it they're gonna make decisions like that because they have a larger portfolio of things that they're working on, and your book is just one of those that slots in in a particular date or or release schedule.
30:03
Ellie Alexander: Definitely.
30:03
Ellie Alexander: I would say another con is that you don't have as much flexibility in terms of how you sell, market, and advertise your books.
30:13
Ellie Alexander: So if you are someone, and I was just having a conversation with a coaching client a few weeks ago about this, because this particular client is very savvy and loves marketing and was already talking about like uh great ideas and events that they wanted to do out in the public, fabulous.
30:29
Ellie Alexander: But if you are traditionally published, you are not allowed to sell your books yourself.
30:35
Ellie Alexander: So we over the years have had so many events and times where it'd be like, okay, we're gonna throw a pumpkin party, like a pumpkin patch, and we're gonna have pie and all the things, whatever it is.
30:46
Ellie Alexander: I'm using that as a bad example off the cuff, but you get the point, darling, right?
30:50
Ellie Alexander: Uh you we can't sell our own books.
30:54
Ellie Alexander: So then it gets really complicated.
30:56
Ellie Alexander: Can I convince a bookseller to come out and bring books and sell books on site?
31:01
Ellie Alexander: As far as ads and marketing, again, I think we touched on this a little bit, but you don't have any access to that piece then.
31:08
Ellie Alexander: So you, as the author, have the least amount of control.
31:13
Tech Guy: Yeah, and this has been one that has been very frustrating over the years.
31:17
Tech Guy: Um, we we know that it's the case, but yet every single time it comes up, it is a challenge, which is why one of the things, uh one of the themes I should say, that we're we constantly refer back to on Reality Writes here is the importance of developing those indie bookstore relationships.
31:39
Tech Guy: Because as you mentioned, every event that we've done where books have been offered for sale, we have been able to partner with a wonderful independent bookseller that has graciously, you know, volunteered to come and sell the books.
31:55
Tech Guy: Now, granted, they they make the sales, so that it's it is a benefit for them, but just it is a lot of time and energy because it's it's coming outside the store uh often and carding all those books, setting up a point of sale, like yeah, it's not an easy ask.
32:12
Ellie Alexander: No, and if you're a new author that you don't have any like sort of proven audience, that's a that's a big risk for a bookstore too, to dedicate time and staff to come to an event where they're not sure if two people are gonna show up or 200.
32:26
Tech Guy: Yeah, and and that's why it's important that when you are developing these relationships, if you are going to ask an independent bookseller to come to an event to sell books for you, like make sure that you have a proposal put together that just it doesn't have to be anything formal, you don't need like a 15-slide PowerPoint or anything, but just explaining what the event is, approximately how many people you you know expect to show up and and how like what they're what is their commitment?
32:54
Tech Guy: Are they you asking them to be there for an hour?
32:56
Tech Guy: Are you asking them to be there all day?
32:58
Tech Guy: And and you know, what kind of facilities are they gonna have?
33:01
Tech Guy: Is there gonna be power so they can keep their devices charged for that point of sale that they need to have?
33:07
Ellie Alexander: Internet, all of the things, right?
33:09
Tech Guy: All of the things.
33:10
Tech Guy: Just you know, have all of that together in one pager that you can just hand to them.
33:15
Tech Guy: And you know, when you're talking about this, and that will go a long way toward toward making sure that you are able to sell your books, but you can't do, you know, you've you've that's a requirement if you go the traditional route, which is and can be a con.
33:30
Ellie Alexander: Can be a con.
33:31
Ellie Alexander: Um, okay, so let's switch to hybrid, these like mid-size small presses.
33:36
Ellie Alexander: Uh distribution is not going to be the same.
33:39
Ellie Alexander: Now, are they going to have more relationships with bookstores and libraries than you as an indie author, as a solo person?
33:47
Ellie Alexander: Sure.
33:48
Ellie Alexander: But do they have like the network of support that traditional publishers have?
33:53
Ellie Alexander: Probably not.
33:55
Ellie Alexander: So even though you have the editorial support, even though you're with a publishing house, you might not be able to go into bookstores everywhere and see your books on shelves because they're not going to have that same level of print distribution.
34:10
Ellie Alexander: And to add to that, it is most likely, especially with the hybrid publishers who are really doing a lot of focus on digital and audio first, print is secondary.
34:21
Ellie Alexander: And so that means that most of your books are going to be POD, which means print on demand.
34:26
Ellie Alexander: So in that case, you're really not getting any distribution at all because that's just based on single individual sales.
34:35
Ellie Alexander: The book gets printed and shipped out.
34:37
Tech Guy: And that can lead to your book being printed in different sizes too.
34:42
Tech Guy: You know, it because print on demand has different size uh options than you know any of the other routes for um getting printed copies of your books and especially like traditional and the size thing, I I don't know if it's on the list for cons, but I think that that's probably a con for it could be a con for all the paths, but it's definitely a con for uh traditional and probably hybrid too, where if you write a long-running series, and I know this one is gonna drive you nuts, uh your books might be different sizes throughout the course of the of the series.
35:22
Tech Guy: So that is just something to think about.
35:24
Ellie Alexander: And again, for this one specifically, it really does depend because we're talking about a huge swath of publishers in this middle space.
35:32
Ellie Alexander: And so there are certainly publishers that are doing traditional print runs as part of that.
35:37
Ellie Alexander: But then on the other end of the spectrum, there are publishers that are exclusively only doing POD and focused on e-book and audio sales.
35:46
Ellie Alexander: With that, the other con is you still can't sell your books directly.
35:50
Ellie Alexander: So you're in this in-between space where it's like, oh, okay, there are all of these indie book conferences, or maybe a book festival or a local holiday event that you could, as an author, pay to be a vendor at.
36:05
Ellie Alexander: And maybe you have a table at the like holiday fair in your local community.
36:10
Ellie Alexander: What a great way to sell signed books.
36:13
Ellie Alexander: People are gonna want to like buy that as a gift.
36:15
Ellie Alexander: That's an easy sell from a marketing perspective.
36:18
Ellie Alexander: You cannot sell your books directly still.
36:21
Ellie Alexander: Now, there might be a work-around way, but you're gonna probably have to pay a lot of money to get books shipped to you and still then not have a way to sell them yourself.
36:33
Tech Guy: Yeah.
36:33
Tech Guy: Again, going back to that frustrating thing of just not being able to do it yourself.
36:38
Tech Guy: But again, it I I know I keep reiterating this, but it's like develop those indie bookstore relationships.
36:47
Ellie Alexander: For sure.
36:47
Ellie Alexander: Uh, one of the last cons, I think, in this sort of mid-space is that your publisher probably isn't gonna have the same reach and network to get you things like trade reviews, magazine coverage, any sort of like high-level publicity is gonna fall to you, likely as the author.
37:08
Ellie Alexander: So, what you might get from a marketing perspective is graphics that you can share on social media or in your newsletter or early reviews from readers, that kind of thing.
37:19
Ellie Alexander: But you're you're probably not gonna have a publicity team that is soliciting reviews in Mystery Scene magazine and uh, you know, all of the big trade magazines.
37:30
Tech Guy: All right.
37:30
Tech Guy: Last but not least, what about the cons for indie publishing?
37:36
Ellie Alexander: I would say, you know, the most glaring con for indie is that you are paying up front for everything.
37:43
Ellie Alexander: So up until now, remember, if we go back to traditional, you're getting some kind of an advance.
37:49
Ellie Alexander: It might not be giant, but you are getting money up front.
37:52
Ellie Alexander: In hybrid, like small-size press, you might not be getting an advance, but you're not paying a dime.
37:58
Ellie Alexander: And in fact, we didn't cover this.
38:00
Tech Guy: I know, I know what you're gonna say.
38:01
Tech Guy: I know what you're gonna say.
38:03
Ellie Alexander: There are some real scammy vanity presses that will charge you thousands and thousands of dollars to publish.
38:11
Ellie Alexander: I'm using air quotes, darling, to anyone who's listening, publish your book, which you can and should do yourself as an indie.
38:19
Ellie Alexander: I mean, we could have a whole other discussion about that.
38:21
Ellie Alexander: But um, those are real red flags, and you really want to do your due diligence before you give away a gob of money to a company like that that is saying that they'll publish you, which really what they're doing is printing.
38:34
Ellie Alexander: Now, there are some that have packages where you're getting cover art and editorial support.
38:38
Ellie Alexander: So you have to do your due diligence on that.
38:41
Ellie Alexander: Okay, but you are paying up for upfront for everything.
38:45
Ellie Alexander: So that means you are paying for a cover artist, you're doing your own cover design, you are formatting the book.
38:52
Ellie Alexander: So you have to pay for something like Vellum or services to be able to support that work.
38:58
Ellie Alexander: You're paying for all of your editorial.
39:00
Ellie Alexander: So you're paying a professional freelance editor to look at your book, and then you're paying a separate copy editor.
39:06
Ellie Alexander: So you have to put together your own professional team.
39:10
Ellie Alexander: Now, you can do that and you can find giant success in it, but it's a lot of work and it's definitely money up front.
39:18
Ellie Alexander: And then you have to decide like, how much do I want to invest in this book?
39:22
Ellie Alexander: Is this the story that I needed and wanted to tell?
39:26
Ellie Alexander: And I want to get it out in the world and share it with friends and family and anyone else who stumbles upon it, then for the love of God, do not spend $10,000 on, you know, all of this other stuff because you're not gonna make that back.
39:39
Ellie Alexander: If you are a career author and you're somebody who's savvy at marketing and putting together a team like that, and you're willing to invest in your career and have that up front, now we know also that over the course of having a lot more books out in the world, you're gonna have a much higher royalty rate in this path.
39:58
Ellie Alexander: So that might really be beneficial and worth it.
40:02
Tech Guy: Yeah, it can pay off because again, it's a it's a volume game, a shelf space game.
40:07
Tech Guy: You the more books that are out there, the the you know, better chance you have of achieving those higher sales numbers that that you might be looking for if this is what you want to do for a living.
40:18
Ellie Alexander: Exactly.
40:19
Ellie Alexander: Distribution is going to fall completely on you.
40:23
Ellie Alexander: I mean, the takeaway for Indy is everything is falling on you, right?
40:26
Ellie Alexander: But uh getting your book into a bookstore, even just finding a bookstore that's willing to feature independent public independently published books is sometimes a challenge.
40:35
Ellie Alexander: Now, that's not to say that your local bookstore might not get really excited, but getting mass distribution is is a real challenge.
40:42
Ellie Alexander: Same thing for libraries.
40:44
Ellie Alexander: You have to really build a readership and get your fans, your darlings, your readers excited about your book and asking booksellers and librarians on your behalf.
40:53
Tech Guy: What's last on the list?
40:55
Ellie Alexander: You also have to find a way to get your book noticed.
41:00
Ellie Alexander: So things like marketing, of course, is that's just basic, but even building early reviews.
41:07
Ellie Alexander: So, how do you find readers?
41:09
Ellie Alexander: Are you spending your own money to get your book up on NetGalley?
41:13
Ellie Alexander: And then how are readers finding you?
41:15
Ellie Alexander: And how are you connecting with other authors?
41:17
Ellie Alexander: Are you putting a good reads giveaway up and paying for that yourself?
41:21
Ellie Alexander: How do you get physical copies of books in to send to readers?
41:24
Ellie Alexander: There are just a treasure trove then of issues that you have to sort of follow and decide for yourself.
41:31
Ellie Alexander: Again, I think this can be an incredible path to publication, but you need to know going into it that the onus is on you to do every stage.
41:40
Tech Guy: Absolutely.
41:41
Tech Guy: And the one thing that is a little disappointing is that it seems like the scams that are out there in the writing world are targeted heavily toward indie authors.
41:57
Tech Guy: Yes.
41:58
Tech Guy: Um, you know, I see offers for like, you know, pay five hundred dollars and get a thousand reviews for your book, you know, things like that.
42:06
Tech Guy: It just the that all of this stuff.
42:10
Tech Guy: I just want the darlings out there who are choosing the indie path to publication to just do extra, extra due diligence when you're thinking about signing up for a service or signing anything with anyone.
42:24
Tech Guy: Just look at it with a really critical eye and understand what you're getting into and what you'll get out of it, and just weigh it against your goals and just be safe out there.
42:36
Ellie Alexander: That's right.
42:37
Ellie Alexander: I hope the takeaway is that you can see that there is no one perfect path to publication, which is why I talk about this at nauseum with my writing students, where I think they're like, Ellie, I know you've said this a hundred times, but it's true, and you really have to decide what works for you, and maybe what works for you for your first book or your first series is a great learning ground.
42:59
Ellie Alexander: And then you decide, no, now I want to try indie or vice versa.
43:02
Ellie Alexander: Like there's really like once you lock in, it does not mean that you have to lock in forever.
43:09
Ellie Alexander: And I think the exciting thing about being in the book world that these days is there are so many options and ways.
43:16
Ellie Alexander: And so if you go the traditional route and you you don't find an agent or you don't land that contract, it does not mean that you have to never share your story, which is really exciting.
43:26
Ellie Alexander: And if you're somebody who's savvy and you want to do marketing and you want to go behind the scenes and look at sales data and buy ads, and I mean, like you can find real success on the indie side of things too.
43:38
Ellie Alexander: So there is not a perfect path.
43:40
Ellie Alexander: It's all about finding the path that works for you and then meandering a little bit and maybe changing paths.
43:46
Tech Guy: And the truth of the matter is the path might be different for each book that you write.
43:51
Tech Guy: Yeah, it just might be, you know, you you may write a book that you think is the best thing that's ever been written, and there's not a single traditional publisher out there that wants to touch it.
44:01
Tech Guy: Yeah.
44:01
Tech Guy: And you go to the hybrid level, and they're like, nope, we're not gonna do it.
44:05
Tech Guy: So you do indie.
44:06
Tech Guy: But then you do get something with a traditional publisher, and and you know, so there not only can you can you choose multiple paths, but they you can actually do multiple paths at the same time with different books.
44:21
Ellie Alexander: And I kind of recommend that, especially with where we're at right now.
44:24
Ellie Alexander: Like I think it's good to to have experience on every side because it is so different.
44:28
Ellie Alexander: And with each experience I've had, I've learned so much more from the indie world, from this hybrid space, from traditional.
44:36
Ellie Alexander: And I I get to use that to teach people and also for myself.
44:39
Ellie Alexander: So yeah.
44:41
Tech Guy: Awesome.
44:42
Tech Guy: All right.
44:42
Tech Guy: Any last parting thoughts for the darlings out there who are trying to navigate the paths to publication?
44:49
Ellie Alexander: Yeah, I think just stay open and um know that you will find your path.
44:56
Tech Guy: Awesome.
44:57
Tech Guy: All right, well, with that, until next time.
45:01
Ellie Alexander: Until next time.