Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Sarah Choosing To Be Vulnerable with Sarah Dionne, MSW, LICSW

Transcript

Sarah Choosing To Be Vulnerable with Sarah Dionne, MSW, LICSW · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Guy McPherson.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show. Five, four, three, two,
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: and one. Our folks, welcome back to the podcast. Very
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: excited to have as my guest today, Sarah Dayan. Sarah, welcome.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Thank you. I'm happy to be here. Awesome.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Awesome. Sarah is a consultant and trainer with 18 years
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: of experience in clinical mental health. Her work focuses on
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  Speaker 1: complex trauma and dissociative disorders, providing clinicians and mental health
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: practices with consultation, supervision, training, and trauma-informed education. Sarah brings
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: both clinical expertise and lived experience as a survivor of
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: severe trauma to her work. She's also an interfaith seminarian
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: and integrates spiritual awareness into her approach to trauma and healing.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: All right, Sarah. Just a little bit about you. Before
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: we get going, share with our listeners where you're from
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: originally and where you are currently.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm originally from Middleborough, Massachusetts, and I'm there now.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: In between that time, I've been a lot of different places.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: I've lived in Florida, Maine, Japan, and I've also traveled
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: to different countries in Europe. I've been around quite a bit,
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: and now I'm back in Middleborough.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Okay. So how does all this start for you?
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: So I would say that my career started. I was
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: coming out of a very difficult time in my later 20s,
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: where a lot of traumatic things had occurred. And I...
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: I had an art degree and I wasn't called to
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: that anymore. And so I felt called to help other
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: people like me. So I started researching that and I
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: found the program at Simmons, now university, and joined, enrolled
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: in that program for my master's. So I had gotten
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: my bachelor's, you know, at the typical age, 18, 19,
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: you know, And I didn't go back for my master's
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: until I was 29. And I studied clinical social work
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: and graduated there in 2013. I took me, I started
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: in 2009 and it took me quite a few years
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: because I was still working through a lot of my
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: trauma at that time. So, you know, I took a
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: year off and I, you know, I kind of took
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: it slow with the program. And I graduated there 2013
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  Speaker 2: and started practicing. The first place I landed that I
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: was really passionate about was at Longley Elementary School in Lewiston, Maine.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: And Longley is no longer there. It is in the
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: poorest district of one of the poorest places in the
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: country because it holds an enormous Somali refugee population. and
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: Kenyan asylees and a number of different people from various cultures.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: And the school that I worked at was a tiny
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: little school that was walking only. There was no buses.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: So everyone that went there was in this tiny little spot,
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: tiny little community that was the poorest and enormous population
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: of refugees. And that's all. I worked with kids in
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: the school as a clinical therapist. And all I did
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: was trauma. I mean, it was all trauma work. It
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: was a violent community. And so kids were consistently being
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: exposed to traumatic events and racism. Just a real difficult
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: life for those children. And I became passionate about that
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: and I loved it. And I really thought that's where
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: I was going to focus my career was children. I
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: did tons of training on trauma, working with children. I
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: went to a conference with Bessel van der Kolk. I
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: hope I'm saying the name correctly. And I learned about
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: trauma-focused yoga, sensory input for children, all types of different
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: trauma work. I studied sand tray therapy. And I also,
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: I studied, at that time, I am EMDR certified. I
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: didn't get that at that time. But I got pregnant
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: and a lot of my trauma came up without me
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: even knowing it. I didn't know that that was happening
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: at the time. And I couldn't do the work anymore.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: I felt too activated. It was so painful for me
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: to witness children going through things that I couldn't stop.
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  Speaker 2: I couldn't control. Kids still went back to abusive homes.
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: There was nothing I could do about that. And it
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: was just too much for my nervous system. And eventually
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: my husband and I moved back to Middleborough, Massachusetts. My parents,
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: I live with my parents now. They both, my father
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: has Alzheimer's. My mother has kind of a cardiac dementia.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: And at that time, my husband wanted to pursue a
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: college degree later in life as a career change. And
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: I started working as a social worker here. And just
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: did a wide array of work that was all trauma-based,
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: including bereavement, hospice, pediatric palliative care, and all trauma, you know,
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: for the families.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: If I may just interrupt you for one second here, Sarah.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: How did you... You said, you know, you left art school.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: It wasn't calling to you anymore. But how were you met...
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  Speaker 1: You said you came out of a very traumatic experience.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I did.
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  Speaker 1: How were you managing during that time? What were you
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: doing to.
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  Speaker 2: Well, that's a really good question because I was receiving
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: ineffective therapy. I was over-medicated at times. I remember going
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: to classes, being in a complete bubble, having a very
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: difficult time focusing, taking... It was... And I was still
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: having quite a lot of erratic behavior. Not erratic, but impulsive.
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  Speaker 2: I was diagnosed incorrectly with bipolar 2 disorder, anxiety, depression, ADHD, OCD.
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  Speaker 2: And it was extraordinarily difficult.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: How did you know to get help at that time?
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  Speaker 2: I was floundering. I felt like I was dying. And
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: I didn't know what else to do. Um, I had
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: had started therapy when I was 20 on my own.
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  Speaker 2: No one, there was so much going on for me
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  Speaker 2: and my teens and no one helped me.
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  Speaker 1: So I, did you, were you consciously aware that that
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: was the result of what you'd experienced when you were young?
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  Speaker 2: No, I didn't remember what I experienced until my, oh,
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: two years ago.
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  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I had no idea, no clue. I didn't
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: know what, but I was a, My behavior through my
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: 20s was impulsive, erratic, and dangerous. So I'm lucky I
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: survived that period of time.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: Okay. So you get help. Do things start to get better,
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: quote unquote, for you? No.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: No. I have to say that part of my healing
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: was timing.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: My....
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: The enormity of my trauma, I couldn't process. I wouldn't
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: have been able to live with. And so it had
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: to wait in my body-mind to finally be in a
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: place of safety. Safety being my parents no longer were
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: dominant figures in my life. That had to happen first.
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  Speaker 2: And when that happened, I remember in a session choosing
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: to be vulnerable. I could not be vulnerable. I couldn't
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: connect with people. Even in my marriage, there was still,
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: I loved him and love him and still had a disconnect.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: I didn't understand why people cried at weddings. I didn't understand.
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: There was so much I didn't understand because I could
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: not be vulnerable. And then one session about, you know,
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: a year and a half ago, I, made a decision
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: to be vulnerable. And this was through life-centered therapy in
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: Waltham and they used, um, they use, uh, kinesiology and
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: muscle testing. And that was the only reason it worked.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: It wouldn't have worked without muscle testing.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: Explain that to our listeners. So what's going on there?
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: You're, So kinesiology is when you use muscles to connect,
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: the muscle tension to connect to deeper messages within the
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: body that the mind is not conscious of. And it's
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: essentially yes, no answers. And there's a lot of debate
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: about whether this works or not. And I'm really not.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: People can just choose what they choose, and that's fine.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: Sure.
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  Speaker 2: For me, it worked, right?
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: So.
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  Speaker 2: The reason it worked for me was because in this,
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: you can choose to do the muscle testing on yourself
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: during the session. And that's what I had chosen. And
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  Speaker 2: like in this very subconscious way, I chose that to
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: still be in control. And it wasn't working. It was
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: giving all kinds of answers that didn't add up that
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: were confusing. And I just, I was like, well, I
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: think I need you to do it to my clinician.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: And she, so she started muscle testing.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: And Sarah, I'm sorry. Can you get more specific? What
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: did they do? So you put out your.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: Arm and you hold your arm tight and you ask
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  Speaker 2: yes or no questions. And you push down when it's
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: a Did this, you know, and they don't ask things like,
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  Speaker 2: did this happen? Like, that's not what they're asking. They're
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: asking questions such as, does this align for you? What,
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  Speaker 2: you know, things like that, that guide the process, but
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  Speaker 2: it's only a guide. It's not absolute. Then nobody that
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  Speaker 2: does this should take it as absolute. It's a guide
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  Speaker 2: and it answers regardless of what you consciously want to say.
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  Speaker 2: So the body will, through this, and on yourself, you
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  Speaker 2: do it on your fingers. You make a loop with
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: one hand with your pointer and thumb. And on the
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  Speaker 2: other hand, you put your pointer thumb through the loop
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  Speaker 2: and you pull. And if it's loose and pulls, and
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: if it stays, so it's yes, no, right? Tension says
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  Speaker 2: no because what the theory is is that the body
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  Speaker 2: creates tension when it says no. Like the hands up, no.
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  Speaker 2: And when the body loosens, it says yes, because it's
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  Speaker 2: an opening. And you can do this either way. You could, like,
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  Speaker 2: your body is going to listen to you. And if
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: you tell the body relaxation is a no, it will
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  Speaker 2: do it, right? It will, so a lot of people
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: say that it, because that changes. But the body responds regardless.
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  Speaker 2: It can say, it will tell you yes or no.
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  Speaker 2: If we allow ourselves to rest into it.
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  Speaker 1: So that was a, what powerful experience for you?
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  Speaker 2: It was a, it was so much. It was, it
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  Speaker 2: broke my mind open. It completely, it broke me open
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  Speaker 2: to a point that I only could have managed to
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: in my current life as a 47-year-old woman. This is
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: the only time in my life that I could have
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  Speaker 2: managed that level. And I cried and processed for eight
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  Speaker 2: months straight. It broke me open.
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  Speaker 1: Like in the session did that happen or when you
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: left and went home?
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  Speaker 2: What happened is I felt my whole body tingle and
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: start to go numb. My whole body. I had no idea.
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  Speaker 2: what was coming forward. No clue. I didn't know it
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  Speaker 2: was there. It was in an amnesic state. I felt
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  Speaker 2: my whole body tingle and go numb. And, you know,
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  Speaker 2: I have been working on my mental health, which I
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: thought I had bipolar, which I don't, for so long, right?
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  Speaker 2: Since I was, you know, so long. And I was
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: finally in a place that even though I didn't know
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: it was there, I could rest into the pain. I
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: could allow myself to sit with it, acknowledge it, and
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: allow it to come even though I didn't know if
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: it was ever going to end. I didn't know if
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: I was going to be able to function the same
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: ever again. But I knew that I had to go
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: through it. And I did seek help. The first therapist
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: I had was not qualified to be treating me. The
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: second therapist I have now is an expert in complex
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: trauma and dissociation. And so when I met him, my
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: first therapist did have a role and did help me
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: with IFS, but straight IFS is not, straight up IFS
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: can be harmful for people with complex, it has to
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: be it has to be modified. And all he used
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: was straight IFS. He didn't use anything else, and that
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: didn't go well. It did do some things, but this
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: current therapist knows how to modify, and he knows when
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  Speaker 2: to use what. So now my healing process, it's still going.
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  Speaker 2: It'll go for the rest of my life. But... Now
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  Speaker 2: it's in a place where I'm ready. I'm ready to say,
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to help the world now. I'm ready to
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  Speaker 2: come out and say, this is my story and this
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: is what works. And I know it. I know it
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: because of my clinical practice and my own experience.
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  Speaker 1: That is, first of all, thank you for sharing all
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: of that. And secondly, that's a very powerful message Statement,
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: I think you just said, and inspiring, like I'm ready
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: to come out, I'm ready to help others. How do
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: you get to that point? Oh, I don't know.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: Spiritual, it's a spiritual process. And this is something that
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: people in the mental health community bypass constantly. And the
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: reason is, it's often religion and spirituality and religion, as
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: a lot of people know, are two different things. Yet
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: therapists just simply aren't trained on how to engage in
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: spiritual questioning and spiritual exploration. A lot of people with
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: complex trauma have religious trauma. And that is so profoundly
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: damaging to a person's whole life. Because imagine, if we
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: have religious trauma, imagine believing that your creator hates you.
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  Speaker 2: And that's what happens. They're taught that Their very creator
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: is demeaning, is punishing them, watching them, judging them. That
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  Speaker 2: begins as soon as you enter into the world. And
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: you're taught that. And you live with that trauma every
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: single day. And I catch it in sessions. I catch
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: it when someone says, oh, God's going to kill me. Oh,
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: that's really what they think. And they might not think,
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: kill them, but they do think God's going to be
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: pissed off. And how horrible to feel that. Like God, my,
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: whatever my version is, I don't, I don't have any
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: input on that. Like how, how do you keep going? Yeah.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: And my spirituality was my saving grace. It was all
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: I had. I didn't have anything else. So what do
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: you do? I went to my version, my truth. And
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: that it's not a religion. I really lean most into
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: like a Native American version of spirituality, but not exactly that.
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  Speaker 2: That's all I had. Nothing else. And that's how a
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: lot of us are. We have nothing. So where do
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: we go?
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about the work you're doing now. How did
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: you get to this point where you're like, okay, I
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: want to put together, I want to create a business.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: I want to help other people. How did that evolve?
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I started my own practice about eight years ago.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: And that came through this very spiritual experience of opening
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: and recognizing my worth. I can't explain it. It just happened.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: One day, bam, I'm like, oh, I can do this.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: I'm worthy. And I did it. So I really, that
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: was just grace. But unfortunately, at that time, I still wasn't,
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: I didn't know about the extent of my trauma. I
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: didn't know. It was just so much unknown. And so
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: there was a lot I did that wasn't, really aligned
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: with my deeper self, my wise inner self. And so
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: it was prolific. I saw tons of clients. But the
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: first place, the first agent practice I started was a
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: small practice with two colleagues. I started Whole Health Collaborative.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: That's no longer. It's dispersed because I no longer... I
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: knew that it didn't fit where I was going. I
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: didn't know where I was going at the time, but
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: I just had inner guidance like this doesn't fit me.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: I don't know why, but I know I need to
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: move on. And so I did after a few years
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: of that practice and I started Sarah Dion and Associates.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: And I knew that I wanted to supervise. I knew
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: that that's where I was headed. And that's where I
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: could be of most benefit to people. But it was
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: planning that out, you know, because seeing a lot of
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: clients I can't do. It's just my system can't manage it.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: And I decided to start contracting with preliminary licensed or
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: unlicensed clinicians. early clinicians, I should say. And so that's
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: what I'm doing now.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: Let me ask you, Sarah, what gave you the confidence
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: to say or to think, to feel, I want to
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: start supervising other people?
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: Well, it started with that initial kind of breakthrough that, oh,
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: I'm worthy. I can do this. And there's no explanation
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: for that. I have no, it was just grace. It
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: was just a moment where I was, oh, here I go.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: But there was so much I hadn't worked through at
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: that point, so much. So where the confidence comes from
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: is my spirituality, my spiritual center only. There's nothing else
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: that can give a person that.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: And when I say- What did you want to, sorry
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: to interrupt. What did you want to- share with these consultees,
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: with these supervisees?
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: I wanted them to know how to treat complex trauma
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: and dissociation because so many people don't know. And it's
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: not their fault. They're not trained. And I had so
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: many therapists, practiced therapists in the field for 20 some
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: odd years that didn't know what they were doing. And
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: there was a lot of harm that was caused to me.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: Not purposeful. And my journey was extended enormously because I
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: couldn't find someone that I didn't know. But I had
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: one clinician. I had an eating disorder, a life-threatening eating disorder.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: And I went to a treatment community in Florida that's
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: still there called Milestones and Recovery. And it saved my life.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: I had one clinician there and she knew. And she
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: said to me, Sarah, you, you behave a lot like
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: you have a lot more trauma than you know about.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: Cause I knew about like a couple of little things
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: and she was the only one that ever said it.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: But I moved back to Massachusetts from Florida and I
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: couldn't like, I saw her, she was self-pay so I
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: could see her a little bit longer, but eventually I didn't.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: She was the only one. And then, um, That didn't
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: happen again until I had that huge, profound breakthrough a
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: year and a half ago.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: And when you say people, and I realize this is
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: a large question, but when you say a lot of
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: clinicians aren't educated, they don't really know how to treat
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: complex trauma, what do you mean by that? What do
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: they not.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: What do they not know?
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: So... That's vast. Complex trauma, you know, my trauma started
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: in infancy and it continued until, in various ways, until
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: I was 27 years old. So that type of trauma
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: is ingrained in you. It is part of you. You
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: embody it. There is no one trauma doesn't exist it's
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: life and you live it when you're working with someone
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: like that they there is no one therapy that is
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: going to cover it all and you cannot dive in
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: too fast you have got to be slow and you
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: also need to know what to look for what are
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: the hints that this is getting too much what are
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: the hints that I need to slow this down? People
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: don't pick up on those cues with EMDR, with IFS,
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: with other ones. Slow down. Because the flooding, the huge
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: amount of flooding that can occur can cause people to
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: be traumatized again and again. And you can't cover that
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: enormity of trauma with one type of therapy, it doesn't work.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: So we have to know how to modify therapies. We
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: have to know what to look for. We have to
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: understand and be trained in dissociative disorders. That is almost non-existent.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's specialists now, but I'm talking about the
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: vast community of therapists around the world. There's very few
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: that fully understand how to work with dissociation, which is
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: part always of complex trauma. So it's a vast question
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: because truly the only thing that can help someone is
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: somatic work, yet slow, guided, and safety first, always, building trust,
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: allowing them to start to know you And kind of
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: feel you out. Can I do this? Can I trust
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: this person? How to be vulnerable in a session. But
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: not allow your energetic boundaries to be crossed. Being open
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: and vulnerable and authentic. Leaning into them. But knowing their
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: boundaries about what's too close and what should you not do.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: How did you... What was that like learning that specific
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: skill for you? Because that can be challenging, right? Learning
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: when to lean in, how to lean in, how to
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: be vulnerable, boundaries, ethics, so forth. Did that just come
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: naturally to you?
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: It comes naturally to me, but not completely.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: It was.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: Fully, like I've been trained in EMDR. So I've been,
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: I've had a lot of training in treatment of trauma.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: And so that, that was part of it. But I
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: found that I was, before all of this, like my,
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: you know, this thing that happened a year and a
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: half ago and all that, I was working with two
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: clients with EMDR. And one of, neither one of them,
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: I didn't have a full understanding of how to spot
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: dissociative disorder. At that time. So I hadn't diagnosed them yet.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: And I had, I didn't know. And so I was working,
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: I was doing EMDR with them and neither one of
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: them could tolerate it. In other words, they would start
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: to dissociate in session. They would start to flood. One
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: of my clients felt dissociated for the whole week. And
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: so I backed off. I was like, I know that
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: this isn't safe. So I need more training, which I
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: sought out. And I can't remember what it was now,
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: but I took a training on EMDR and dissociation and
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: how to modify. So I sought information out. I'd watch YouTubes.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: I'd watch, I'd seek out training. I, you know, I
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: just was hungry to know. And then the other important
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: part was my experience in therapy with expert clinicians and
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: how they work and how that affects me. And how
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: I respond. What caused me to flood? What caused me
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: to feel safer? And safety is everything. Everything. Even safety
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: is the treatment, right? Just plain old safety. So I
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: learned it from my own hunger to understand and my
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: life experience as a client. In therapy.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about what you're doing now. With your work.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Who do you work. With. Who comes to you. Goals
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: you have. For the work you're doing. So.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: Right now. I have a very small practice. And I.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: I only work with. Clients with severe complex trauma. Like
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: sex trafficking. Extensive religious trauma. So. Yeah.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: I mean.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: Those things are part of my story. Yeah. So I
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: get it. But I can heal. Like, I know that
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: I can move forward. And I know that I can
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: help people. I know that I can help them. But
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: that that's my level of trauma and I've had extensive
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: violent sexual abuse sex trafficking religious trauma cultural trauma social
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: isolation emotional neglect and psychological neglect and that lasted from
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: infancy to eight and And then on from there was
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: more and more and more. Like, it didn't stop there.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: It just changed. So I understand it all. But look
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: at me. Like, I can do this. And I'm not healed. Like,
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: I'm not. And the thing that we need to understand
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: about this level of trauma is that you never fully heal.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: That's not going to happen. because of our amount of grief.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: We grieve. We grieve for our mothers and our fathers
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: that we never had and we can't have and we
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: will always love. We grieve them. We want them. That's
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: never going to go away. They're dead and they're alive
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: at the same time. So we need to be able
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: to allow people like forgiveness. What the hell is that?
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: Who cares? How do we not forgive and heal? Forgiveness comes, maybe, yes.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: There is a freedom in it, but that's not my goal.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: That's sometimes absolutely just not going to happen. And that's okay.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: So we need to know how to sit with someone
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: that is always going to experience trauma because it's part
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: of their brain. It's part of their physical makeup. It's
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: part of their DNA. So that's my level. And that's
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: their level. So I get it. But I know we
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: can heal. Right? So yeah, that's who I work with
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: because I get them. And I can hold that. And
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: I don't shy away from any of it. And I'm
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: okay talking about every detail they need to talk about.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: I'm fine with it. Because it doesn't rest in my body.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: But I still need to heal. I'm still in my
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: healing process. And so I'm consistently stepping away from clients
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: when I can. Some clients will be with me for
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: the rest of my life. But just because of our long, long,
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: long rapport. And I really love working with them. But
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: my system needs rest. This system needs rest. And so
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: now you talked about the goals. My goals are to
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: be nationwide in supervision and consulting. I want to teach
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: around the world. I want to speak. I want people
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: to know my story. I'm fine with that. And it's
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: a lot. It's a lot. So that's where I'm headed.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: Building my own practice saradion and associates expanding my clinicians
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: uh and teaching them i offer them free training free
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: supervision because i want them to be great clinicians and
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: they can but they need more they just need more
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: and i want to give more and i am so
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: i'm journeying through my healing process and it's simultaneously i'm
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: ready like i'm ready okay let's do this you.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: Know You are amazing. I mean, you really are. You
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: have an amazing and beautiful and inspiring way of not
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: just articulating your story but really articulating the importance of
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: the therapeutic process with regards to working with trauma. And
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: not everyone can do that. And because of that, I
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: think what you're doing is very powerful. I'd love to
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: have you back at a later date.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: Yes, I would love to.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: And to talk more specifically about some of the things
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: you were talking about. But wow, Sarah, amazing. Really, you
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: are so inspiring. I really appreciate you being here.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: Oh, no, I'm ready for this. I'm expanding my But now,
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: you know, because I'm, you know, you know I'm a seminarian,
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: so you know I'm spiritual. I know the divine is aligning.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: Therapists are showing up. People are showing up. You know,
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: so they're just coming because I'm ready. I'm open and
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: I'm inviting it. And I want to, I only want
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: to be known because I just want people to see
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: what they can do. They don't have to do what
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: I'm doing. Mm-hmm. just have a fulfilling life alongside their
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: life story. We have to live alongside it. We're never
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: going to be able to desensitize it all. When I
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: think about my trauma, I no longer have any physical response.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: And that wasn't because of EMDR. That was honestly because
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: of spirituality and resting into that being open to my
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: pain and allowing it to move through my body and
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: not at all trying to stop it but it was
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: also through modified IFS and that being modified to work
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: with someone like me changed my life but it wasn't
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: just that It was spirit for me, my version. Right, right. So, yeah,
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: I think that's all I have to say about that.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I answered your question.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: You did. You did and more. As we wind down here,
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: how do people learn more about you and reach out
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: to you? What's the best way? Sure.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: And can I just talk about a couple things that
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: I have going on right now? Is that okay?
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: Yes, of course.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: Okay. So how you can reach me is through my website, dion-asos.com.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: I'm there, my clinicians are there, and how to reach
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: me and work with me is there. I also have
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: a guided journal for people with complex trauma, dissociative issues
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: called Unfolding Reflections. It's available on Amazon. I'm going to
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: be writing a book. That's a slow process. It's a
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: kind of memoir-ish, but my life is too extensive and
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: fragmented to do it just like a memoir. So it's
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: poetry and essays and a lot of different things. And
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: that's something that's in the works. And I am working
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: on a YouTube channel as well, but that's still in
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: its very early phases.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: And we'll have all that linked up here at the
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: show notes page at the traumatherapistpodcast.com. Sarah, love it. Appreciate
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: you sincerely sharing your story and experience. Thank you so
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: much for being here.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: We'll be in touch.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: All right. Thank you.