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Michele Neurauter: A Father’s Deadly Ultimatum · RN's and Red Flags

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Before we get into today's case, the episode includes discussion of domestic violence, strangulation, suicide threats, and murder.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: And because Amanda and I are both registered nurses, we're also going to talk about some of the medical and forensic findings in this case.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: We're discussing those findings for education and commentary.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: We are not forensic pathologists and we are not trying to independently diagnose Michelle's injuries.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: So August 28, 2017, Corning, New York.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: A family friend arrives at Michelle Narauder's house to pick up Michelle's 14-year-old daughter for swim practice.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody answers the door, but through the glass, he can see something inside.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: At first, he thinks he sees Michelle standing near the staircase.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Except she isn't moving.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: He calls 911.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: When Sergeant John, she's standing, but she isn't moving like a freaking statue.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Weird.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: So when Sergeant John McDivitt of the Corning Police Department enters the house, he discovers 46-year-old Michelle Narauter near the bottom of the staircase.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's a rope around her neck and she has no pulse.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: She's cold.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: And initially the scene appears to tell like a tragic, straightforward story, right?
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Michelle has apparently died by suicide.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: But almost immediately, something bothers police.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: There is a strange rope mark around Michelle's chin.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: And Michelle's 14-year-old daughter, the child who is supposed to be there, is missing.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: The nursing side of my brain already has 10 questions.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, mine too.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: What is happening?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because you hear rope around the neck.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody wants to jump in and immediately think to you know, come to one conclusion.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: But medically and forensically, you can't look at one finding and say, I know exactly what happened.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: Especially when something about the injury like pattern doesn't seem to like match the scene.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, again, she had a mark around, well, she had a rope around her neck and but a mark across her chin, too, like a rope mark around her chin.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: That just seems odd, but okay.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: And investigators would eventually learn that what they were looking at wasn't simply a death scene.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: It was a scene that had been deliberately created to basically um tell them a lie.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: So Michelle Otter essentially had been murdered, and the person responsible was her ex-husband, Lloyd Narauder.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: But he didn't act completely alone.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: Their own 19-year-old daughter, Carrie, helped him um get into the house.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: She helped remove her younger sister from the house.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then after Michelle was deceased, um, Carrie helped uh her father stage her mother's body to make the murder look like the suicide.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm Ashley.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Whoa, and I'm Amanda, and we're both registered nurses, and this is RNA.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: RN's and red flags.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: So let's talk about what is this?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: Episode four.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: Episode four.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: Wait a minute.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so just to recap, the the 19-year-old daughter Carrie helped her stepfather.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: No, her father.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: Her father.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: Her father removed the younger sister, which was the 14-year-old, I'm assuming, and then and then helped uh well and then helped him stage her mom's body to make it look like a suicide.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: What?
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: All right, yeah, wild.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, tell me more, tell me more.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so basically, to understand what happened that night, we have to go back years, okay?
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: So Michelle and Lloyd Narauder had three daughters, but at that time, like their marriage has started to deteriorate, and Lloyd eventually left the family home.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: So the couple divorced in 2012, but ending that marriage didn't really end the relationship with each other, right?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's children involved.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: So for years they were um involved um in contentious family court battlings, like regarding custody, you know, and money all there.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: So Michelle accused Lloyd of turning their daughters against her.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: So by the end of August of 2017, the battle had been going on for roughly about five years.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's so brutal.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I feel like you know, that's something worth mentioning.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, is that when you have uh something that's deteriorating, I don't know necessarily if it was, you know, if they had any domestic violence, but because that's kind of how it sounds, right?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, you know, domestic violence doesn't always mean what we picture immediately, like somebody showing up with obvious physical injuries.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: I there's different forms of domestic violence that we have to consider, especially, you know, again, when we're seeing patients, we can't just look for the obvious.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: We have to read the room, right?
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: Because there might be emotional abuse, yeah, uh, intimidation, isolation, I don't know, threats, manipulation, or even uh like controlling the money, like financial control.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: And and really the children can become part of that dynamic.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: So now none of those things by themselves like prove that someone's gonna commit murder, right?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: But in this case, they provide important context for what eventually happened.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: So shortly before Michelle's death, something unusual occurred.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Lloyd had been pursuing sole custody of their youngest daughter, but he failed to appear for a court proceeding.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so the case was dismissed, whatever.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: According to the people close to Michelle, she was actually relieved.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then two days later, dot, dot, dot, dot, she would be dead.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I know.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: Now, investigators would later learn that Lloyd was under significant financial pressure.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: So, according to the Steuben County District Attorney, Brooks Baker, Lloyd had more than about$100,000 in credit card debt.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: I know, and was paying Michelle nearly$6,000 per month in support.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: So after Michelle's death, investigators said that Lloyd attempted to collect approximately$260,000 in her life insurance proceeds.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, yes.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: And according to Carrie's brutal, yes, and according to Carrie's eventual, like her uh actual statement to the police about a week before the murder, Lloyd came to her with horror, you know, horrifying proposition.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: This is insane.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: He told his 19-year-old daughter that he couldn't continue paying her mother, and he essentially presented Carrie with two choices.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, either he was going to kill himself or Michelle had to die, which is what Amanda?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: What kind of father?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: So he's essentially making this child.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I guess she's technically an adult, but she's still his child.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: Still choose between her father and her mother, like who's going to die.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to be careful here because, like, when somebody threatens suicide, we always take that serious, of course.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: But according to Carrie's account, the threat was also part of the pressure that Lloyd was putting on her.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: So he was essentially making her feel responsible for whether her father lived or died.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: And like, first of all, our first red flag of this case, that's also like a huge, a huge amount of coercion on his own child, right?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: So he's already a POS, but okay.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: And uh yes, he is.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: And later, um, Carrie described to the investigators as having to basically choose.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: So Lloyd admitted that in court that he had manipulated her into helping him.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: So um, according to Carrie's later statement to investigators, Lloyd wasn't simply talking about, you know, just killing Michelle.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: He actually had a plan.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: He wanted Michelle's death to look like she had taken her own life.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: So Carrie had told investigators that Lloyd described using a towel to keep Michelle quiet, putting a rope around her neck.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: I know, strangling her, and then really just creating the appearance, which it it was, um, of a suicide.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: So that's essentially, I mean, it's it's premeditated.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, this is entirely premedicated pre-medicated, pre-medicated.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: Look at me with my nurse brain.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: Geez Louise, this is not a medical procedure we are pre-medicating for.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, no, so I mean, he premeditated this.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: This isn't something that he just came up with on the spot.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: This is something he thought thoroughly through.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so, according to Carrie's account, the deception was part of the plan from the beginning.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, Lloyd had another advantage.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, basically, it was good timing because that weekend he was helping Carrie move into her college apartment in Rochester, New York.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: So it's crazy because I, as doing uh the research, like the time points and everything, and he checked into a hotel.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then, according to the story, he later told police that he stayed there overnight.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: Then the next day, he was flying more than 2,500 miles to California because he had some job interview.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, on paper, think about it.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's a pretty good alibi.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, by the time Michelle's body was discovered, Lloyd would essentially be on the other side of the country.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: But there was one problem.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't actually stay in the hotel all night.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: Oh.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: So would they like track him with cameras or what?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let's so let's now go to the night.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: On the night of August 26th into August 27th, Carrie went to Lloyd's hotel.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Now, surveillance footage captured them leaving together.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: So Lloyd got into Carrie's vehicle and then the true two of them drove towards um or from Rochester to Michelle's home in Corning.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Now, Carrie would later admit that her father went with her, but Michelle wasn't alone because her younger daughter, Carrie's 14-year-old sister, was in the basement at the house.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, was she sleeping?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Now, according to Carrie's eventual statement to investigators, she and Lloyd entered the house.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Michelle saw Lloyd and she wanted to know why he was there.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: So an argument began, obviously.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Lloyd went upstairs with Michelle.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now, Carrie remained downstairs near her younger sister because the plan was he was gonna essentially murder Michelle.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my lord.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: While Carrie kind of hung out by her younger sister to make sure that she didn't hear anything.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: But then Carrie said that she heard Michelle yelling and then it became quiet.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oh I know.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: I just know I feel like this like this is a part of the story where we need to like re-remember that uh obviously we're just reconstructing this night based on Carrie's statement, right?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: Just based on Carrie's statement, you're right, and then and then stuff that Lloyd said later on, right?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because we weren't there, but according to the evidence, ultimately, accepted in the case, Lloyd strangled Michelle.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: So during all the commotion, um, the youngest, a 14-year-old, woke up.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: So Carrie was like, Well, she can't stay here, so Carrie needs to get her out of the house.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: So Carrie took her younger sister outside and put her in the car.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and again, she had no idea that her father was inside killing her mother.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: That is just devastating because obviously this child is going to know now.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: And imagine how that weighs on you.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: I just oh yeah, I feel like right here, this is where you know people use words like strangling and choking interchangeably all the time, right?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: But it's important to remember that they're actually different, right?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because like choking is generally, I mean, what, like an obstruction inside the airway.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: So then you say strangulation, it involves like external pressure on the neck.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: So what makes strangulation, in my opinion, so dangerous is that you don't necessarily have to completely close off the trachea.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, pressure can just interfere with the blood flow through the vessels of the neck and compromise oxygen, which is a delivery to your brain.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then somebody can just lose consciousness from you know, just the impaired blood flow, not because they couldn't breathe, right?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: And clinically, visible injury, I mean, can be misleading.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: So some surviving strangulation victims, I mean, have little or nor no like obvious, like, oh, you know, uh you were strangled.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like externally.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: So even though serious injuries lie under serious injuries are underlying, right?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, well, I mean, because I mean you could even assess it.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: You don't know what's happening.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you you just don't know.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: I think I think that's one of the things that you know people should keep in mind as far as like a medical perspective.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: There are other cases that are being talked about right now that we will not get into, but you know, when it comes to the trachea and strangulation and and you know, broken necks, et cetera, et cetera.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, there is a lot more that go that goes into it than just seeing what's on the outer side.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: So if the patient tells us, oh, someone put pressure around my neck, like we shouldn't be like, well, I don't see anything because I don't see anything.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, that's why forensic sci um forensic nursing guidance emphasizes the history, the symptoms, a detailed physical assessment and documentation.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's not just simply saying, Oh, well, I can see bruising or not.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: So, okay.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: With that being said, so according to Carrie, after Lloyd killed Michelle, Carrie saw her mother's body.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, investigators asked whether Michelle was still alive when Carrie saw her.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Carrie said no.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: But the crime was not over yet.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: See, because now that was done, they now had to make Michelle's death look like something it wasn't.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: So Carrie later admitted that she physically helped Lloyd move Michelle's body.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, according to her statement, they moved Michelle's body towards the staircase.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Lloyd attached the rope to the part of the banister.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then together they had positioned Michelle's body.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: So at the same way, basically resemble, I know it resembled a hanger.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that's oh well, and that's why they're like, Oh, I can see someone, but they're not moving, they're just standing there.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, you're and that was her hanging.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I want to vomit.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's got chills, yeah.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's awful.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: And like, I know so when police eventually walked into the house, they weren't necessarily seeing the position that she was in when she died, they were seeing what he wanted them to see.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, god, gross.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: That's awful.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: This poor woman.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: It is, and the crime scene itself had now become part of the deception.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: So afterward, Lloyd slipped out of the house, according to Carrie.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: He went around the side of the home and got into the rear hatch area of Carrie's vehicle.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, well, Carrie's 14-year-old sister was also in that vehicle and apparently didn't realize that her father was hiding there.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: So they drove back towards Rochester.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, think about that child.
• 16:39
  unknown: Yeah.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: Leaving her home, believing she's simply just going somewhere with her sister.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Her mother is deceased in the house.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: Her father is secretly inside the same vehicle, and she doesn't even know what happened.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's that is so brutal for this poor child.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I can't even put into words how disgusting this is.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, back in Rochester, Lloyd still needed the story to work, right?
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, his official version was that he had stayed at that hotel all night.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: Remember previously I said that?
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so one piece of evidence initially seemed to support him.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: His phone had remained at the hotel.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, so so if they're if they're just looking, I guess if you're only looking at the phone location, but there are other things they can use, right?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like hotel cameras and stuff or what?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: But it could appear that Lloyd never left.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: So to him, it's like, yeah, uh okay, well, I mean, it's covered.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like they, I was here, I never left, but surveillance cameras don't care what story you're telling.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, like you said, hotel footage showed Lloyd leaving with Carrie, it didn't show him returning that night, but then around 6:30 that following morning, Lloyd appeared back at the hotel.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: So investigators noticed he appeared wearing the same clothes.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Oh at about 7 a.m., Carrie arrived at the hotel for breakfast with her 14-year-old sister.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, they're just having breakfast.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: I can't it's it's sickening.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: I can't um the video fundamentally contradicted the story Lloyd and Carrie had really given essentially given to police.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: What they were doing was they were eating their guilt waffles.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's the kind of yeah, like that is the kind of detail where his alibi is gonna start looking less like an alibi and more like a constructed story.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like you're you're it just seems like he tried a little too hard for this alibi.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: And Lloyd, so then Lloyd then flew to California.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: So when Michelle see, it's it's just like yeah, he thought he was slick, but yeah, and then you're just leaving your daughters behind to deal with this, like oh yeah.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: So basically, when Michelle's um body was discovered that following day, he again was thousands of miles away.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: He just hadn't been that thousand miles away when she was initially killed, right?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so uh on Monday, um August 28th, the family friends arrived to take the 14-year-old to swim practice and he couldn't find her.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he saw that Michelle was inside the house and called 911.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: So police entered.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then again, Michelle was uh deceased near the staircase with a rope around her neck.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: So Sergeant McDivitt, uh, I might not be saying that right, McDivitt um initially appeared, uh believed to appeared that it was a suicide by hanging.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like it appeared to him just initially, right?
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, I mean that would be your first impression when you walk in.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, yep.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: But police chief Jeff Spaulding was disturbed by an unusual rope knack uh rope mark around Michelle's chin.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's just what we said, right?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like early in the beginning.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: But then there was a second major problem.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: Where was Michelle's youngest daughter?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because she was supposed to be there, right?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: So again, police remember, like they they came in, it looks like a suicide by hanging.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, police are searching.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then Carrie called them.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: She told the investigators that her younger sister was safe with her in Rochester, and Carrie gave them a story.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: So she claimed that she had gone home the night before.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: She said that Michelle had become extremely upset with her, and that Carrie became concerned about her little sister, so then took her home with her.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: So they both drove back to Rochester.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: She also told police that Lloyd had remained in Rochester.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: It was a story that explained why the 14-year-old wasn't home.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: So she went back to the house, they you know, was very upset.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Carrie took her little sister home because she was, you know, concerned for her.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: So um it basically that story helped protect Lloyd, but now the investigators were not convinced on this story.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's just too many, again, red flags.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: But I want to go back to this mark on Michelle's chin because I feel like viewers might hear ligature mark and assume that that tells you exactly what happened, right?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean and it and it it doesn't.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so a ligature mark, it's basically a material used to apply pressure around the neck.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't know, a rope, cord, belt, whatever, something similar.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um a forensic pathologist may consider the location, direction, depth, um, and overall pattern of a ligature injury, along with internal neck findings and the scene.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: So, again, one external mark by itself doesn't allow.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Us, Amanda, you and I, nurses, right, to determine whether it's a suicide or it's a homicide.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean, you you know, even the forensic pathologist, you have to look at the totality of the evidence, everything all together.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: But it is fishy.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: I would certainly look at that and be like, uh, what is this mark?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: You're right.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, forensic um literature emphasizes that external and internal findings and the fatal neck compression have um to be interpreted in context.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's not like a single visual finding that will automatically answer every question, right?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, right, this is how they died.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, this is how they died.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: So investigators expected that the autopsy would be able to settle the question, right?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Was Michelle's death a suicide?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Or was it a homicide?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this is the thing, Amanda.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: So they got something a little bit more frustrating.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: So the initial determination was essentially undetermined.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: Undetermined, I know, but with that being said, police still remain suspicious.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Michelle's family remained suspicious.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but suspicion isn't enough, right?
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: To charge someone with murder, right?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then another major decision complicated things also.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Michelle's remains were cremated.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, for pete.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's like Reddit.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, this was Lloyd's doing.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: No, they were divorced, so maybe it wasn't.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: What?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: Who the hell let them cremate her remains when it was an undetermined death?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: Because we've got to figure out something.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we can't just say undetermined.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: It well, exactly.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: And later, when the prosecutors wanted another forensic pathologist to examine the case, there was no body for a second eval.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, really, the experts had to rely on um pictures, documentation, autopsy finding, and the preserved evidence that they had.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: And every nurse listening just felt that one documentation posts.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yes, exactly.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: We call that CYA charting, cover your ass documentation.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: And we joke about charting, we complain about charting.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we've all probably looked at the clock and thought, like, how am I still charting?
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: Again, this case does show why objective documentation became becomes so important.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yes, especially in like violent cases, because we're documenting number one, like what the patient tells us, but also what we observe, uh, the location, shape, size, appearance, everything of injuries.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: We can even document voice changes, right?
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: Difficulty swallowing, breathing complaints, neurologic symptoms, loss of consciousness, memory gaps.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's so many different things.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess like even photographs, right?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: If we needed to document certain injuries, if we suspected violence.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: I know that there have been cases, you know, when I was working primarily in the emergency room where we suspected some sort of violent act took place.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: And there's it's such a delicate process.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: And the documentation quite literally has to be pristine, pristine, because you know that at some point, I mean, you may end up deposed, right?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: If I'm deposed and I am on that stand, I want to be able to refer back to my documentation and be like, oh yeah, this is exactly how it went down.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want there to be any question.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, either grammar is important in your documentation.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: Where you put a comma would be important, you know?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: And notice what you didn't say.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: We document who we think committed the crime.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no, no, no, that's not our job.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: Now, if a patient told me, you know, my spouse did this, I could say per patient, patient quotes, my spouse did this, but I will never say, I think it was the spouse.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: So again, you're right.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Nursing documentation should, yes, it should 100% be objective.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: And like in a strangulation case, like detailed assessment and document documentation can later become extremely important.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, if you know, you're deposed in this.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's important medically and legally.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: So the International Association of Forensic Nurses specifically provides guidance on strangulation specific assessment on like what you need to document um in that and like evidence collection and even discharge planning, which is when I was doing the uh research for this, I actually didn't even realize that.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh, that's actually kind of nice either.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I am so glad that I didn't have to know that.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you know.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: I know, but it's nice to have that as something that we can refer to.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, for sure.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, so Lloyd returning from California after Michelle's death.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was within roughly about 36 hours, according to the district attorney.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he went to family court seeking to stop his child support and the payments.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, I know right when he came back from California, this is what you're worried about.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's another red flag.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: Lloyd is a walking red flag at this point.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm waving my hands around in the air like I'm waving.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody, can you see him?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: I wish you could see me waving my flag.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's Lloyd.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: Investigators uh did interview him.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he maintained that he had stayed at the Rochester Hotel that night Michelle died.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but again, remember the hotel surveillance was telling police something very different.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then investigators learned about the finances.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, again, remember we discussed more than$100,000 in credit card debt.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he was drowning in debt.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: Drowning$6,000 per month, had to go to Michelle.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then in an effort um after her death to collect on a life insurance policy worth$260,000.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, with that being said, police now had a potential financial motive because it's like, well, what?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, you're just, you know, you're gonna plot this for what?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's I mean, that's significant, right?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, wait, can we back up for a second?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: Hold on.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: Because you have a hundred thousand in credit card debt, which is obviously significant.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, but how much does this man make yearly to have to pay six thousand per month?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: Six thousand?
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: I can't imagine what your credit card bill is for a hundred thousand dollars.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and then right, but like I I mean, to me, this man must be making a decent amount per year to have to pay that in what I assume is alimony, or I don't know if it's child support or alimony combined, I don't know, combined, right?
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: But like I guess in that in the scheme of things with that type of income, like a hundred thousand might not be terrible.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's just seems like he was super desperate.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: Well, obviously he was very desperate, and also a terrible person.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: But anyway, I'm sorry, continue.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, nope.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: So police had now a financial motive, but again, they still had to prove what happened inside Michelle's house because that doesn't say anything, right?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so police eventually obtained authorization to listen to the communications between between Lloyd and Carrie.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow, dude.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: Boy, freaking wild.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: I get crazy.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: But weeks passed, and investigators um, they just like weren't getting what they had needed.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: So they had used um tactics, sometimes called they'll say, like um, what is it, tickling the wire or something?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: Tickling the wire?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: I've never heard that.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I didn't either.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: So not until I was looking this up.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, tickling the wire?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: Why does it make me uncomfortable?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's just anyway when someone says like moist, does that like yes?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like, man, I don't know.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's just some things just rub me the wrong way.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, so it's called Tickling the Wire.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: An investigator um contacted Carrie and told her police wanted to speak to her again.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: So basically, the whole idea of this was to create anxiety, and then they listen to what Carrie and Lloyd say to each other afterwards.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, you know, Carrie comes in and they do the investigation, then Carrie leaves and immediately calls Lloyd, and then it's like Yeah.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: So Carrie was clearly nervous.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: So Lloyd attempted to tickling the wire kind of makes more sense now, right?
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: They're kind of just given it a little irritation so that the wires that they're listening to will give them something.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I was just I never heard of it.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, me either.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, I haven't either.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: So um when Carrie called Lloyd, Lloyd attempted to reassure her, but investigators still needed to find, like, have a breakthrough.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but just wait, because they were about to get one.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: Now he's spilled the means.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because the original autopsy had not um provided any definitive homicide ruling prosecutors wanted, the district attorney sought another forensic option.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: So the pathologist couldn't examine Michelle's body because she was already cremated.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: So instead, he reviewed the available evidence, the photographs, so which were all the dots.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yep.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: So they documented all the injuries, the unusual ligature mark, and the patical hemorrhaging involving Michelle's eye.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: So after reviewing the case, he concluded that Michelle's death was a homicide and because she had been strangled.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: So well, let's talk about patiki eye.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: So because is it patiki eye or patiki?
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: I say patiki eye.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: We need to look it up because I feel like I've heard patiki a well, but I say patiki or patiki eye.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well, anyway, it's one of those potato, potato, tomato, tomato.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but that's you know, to me, that's one of those when you read that, it sounds like really dramatic, right?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, it's really not.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it is, but it's not, right?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: So t'patiki, for anybody that doesn't know, it's basically tiny little pinpoint hemorrhages causing small blood vessels rupturing.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they can sometimes be seen around like the face or the eyes.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes, like if you um are really sick and you've vomited multiple times, you might see on your face you have like little red dots that is patiki.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: Some people even get them um during childbirth when you're restraining.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: Restraining.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it doesn't obviously.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: So what I guess what we're trying to convey is that just because we have this, these pinpoint hemorrhages, you know, with these blood vessels rupturing in the eyes, doesn't mean necessarily that this person was definitely murdered.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: It can happen other ways.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: They're just a finding, it's not like a verdict or anything.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: But now, like you kind of said, Petechiae can occur in different forms of the neck um compressions, and the presence uh or absence doesn't independently establish exactly what happened, right?
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, exactly.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I could have them on my face.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: It could be from maybe I was at a concert and I was screaming so loud that I just blew some of the blood vessels, or I was vomiting.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: It it doesn't, it doesn't matter.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't again establish what exactly happened.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why forensic pathology considered um considers them alongside everything else the ligature patterns, internal injuries, body position, scene findings, history, and circumstances.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, that's probably gonna have to become a rule on our show, right?
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like one finding isn't the entire diagnosis.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: And like I also want to say I've seen people with this from constipation.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: So please, fiber, everybody.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: Right fiber.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: Fiber fluids, fiber fluids, fiber movement.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: I was just gonna say that movement.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: Go for your poop walk after you eat, okay?
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, okay, so January 24th, 2018, nearly five months after Michelle's murder, investigators approached Lloyd in New Jersey.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: Basically, it was the same time police confronted Carrie while she was at college, at a college internship.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Lloyd continued denying that he had left Rochester that night.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, he said he stayed at that hotel um all night.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: He even agreed to take a polygraph um and wasn't even given instructions about where to go.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: But Carrie reacted very differently.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, under questioning.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, she finally said it.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: Her father had gone to corning with her that night.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: And once she admitted that, basically the rest of the story came out.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: She told investigators Lloyd had gone upstairs.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and she described, you know, hearing her mother, described um removing her younger sister outside, and then she admitted seeing her mom deceased, and then admitted helping move her mom's body.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, so she just gave him the entire thing, handed it over.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: She got a case of the truthful word vomit.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: We that's the only type of word vomit we like is the truthful kind.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I feel like at that point, I mean, that's huge.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's like obviously that's a huge turning point for the case.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: They had somebody that actually was present, an accessory.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh was this would this be an accessory?
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: She would be an accessory, I would assume.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: Or would she be just as guilty as he was?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I feel like depend I I feel like it depending, I would feel like it's an accessory, but okay, you still see this is where I'm like, man, I should have just gone into law.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's very interesting because I don't know, I feel like she played a part in it.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, she was a I don't know, Amanda.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but while Carrie was confessing, police had another problem because Lloyd never arrived for that polygraph.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he had actually disappeared.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: But police were still able to track Lloyd's phone, so it led them to a parking structure in get the okay, just he's not very bright.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: No, but listen to this though.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: They were at a it led them to a parking structure in Princeton, New Jersey.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: Lloyd was on the upper level of the garage and threatening to jump.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: Don't do it, Lloyd.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: You're a good person.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: At least spent it was like two hours dealing with that.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: So eventually, I think um, they say like Lloyd had turned away, and one of the officers like rushed him, tackled him to the ground, they took him into custody.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: And he was eventually arrested for Michelle's murder.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, well, you know, I obviously we want to make sure that suicide threats are not turned into entertainment.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, uh whatever someone's crimes are, a suicide threat is still an emergency, and we would have to treat it like anyone else's, obviously.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you can discuss how it fits into the case without making light of it.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: But like I did just kind of make light of it.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: What I will tell you is that sometimes I feel like karma comes to those types of people from their own actions.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I'm saying?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, totally.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so okay, so then going back, so Carrie's involvement basically created one of the most difficult questions in the this entire case.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she had helped her father get into the house, she removed her younger sister, she initially lied to the investigators and she physically assisted in staging her mom's body.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, those are serious actions.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: Now, prosecutors also believe that Lloyd had spent years manipulating her.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: So Steuben County, I know, um, district attorney Brooks Baker ultimately supported allowing Carrie to plead guilty to second-degree manslaughter rather than face the exact same murder um liability as Lloyd.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: So she actually received a sentence of one to three years in prison and was later released on parole in January of 2020.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, I feel like, you know, was she a victim, an offender, or both?
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, it's hard to say because I I don't know that anyone can prove for sure that he had been um manipulating her.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, she was manipulated to she certainly, you know, was responsible for her actions in some way.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean, right, I think that her sentence was appropriate for sure.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and again, remember like each every state is different in how they will um you know try you.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: So again, um, so she was so she was released, but you know, those things can be complicated.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: So what we can say factually is that she did participate in the crime and its staging.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then again, uh Lloyd later admitted that he did manipulate her into helping him.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like oh, sure, dad.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like I can I can help you.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: It was definitely manipulation.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: So as Lloyd's prosecution moved forward, investigators want one fitted la la la la la.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they wanted physical evidence, right?
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, now Carrie's testimony was powerful.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: Having the hotel footage was also huge, and the forensic findings um were also powerful.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: So prosecutors, I can't speak today.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: Prosecutors mouth mouth exercises, e-i-o.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, prosecutors still wanted something directly linking Lloyd to Michelle's murder, not just Carrie stating it.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so this is wild too.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: So Michelle's clothing was re-examined, and investigators found Lloyd's touch DNA and the pajamas Michelle was wearing that night she was killed.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um Touch DNA just from like touching it?
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that was a major development in the case.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: So Lloyd had maintained that he remember, he said that he wasn't in corning.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: But now there was evidence connecting him to the clothing that she was wearing the night she died.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: So that might be the next one.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: You were there.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: So two weeks before his trial was scheduled to begin, Lloyd changed his course.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: He actually pleaded guilty to first-degree murder.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: Probably smart.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then as part of his plea, uh, as part literally, he can't speak.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, you guys.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: As part of his plea, he admitted to planning and carrying out Michelle's homicide and admitting manipulating Carrie into helping him.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: So again, during his plea, Lloyd claimed he believed Michelle might harm their children, but he ultimately I know, I know, but he he I did acknowledge that wasn't an excuse and he admitted responsibility for the murder.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the prosecution also presented other possible motives.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the prolonged custody fight.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, remember, he had a huge financial obligation, all of his debt, um, and his desire to obtain custody of their youngest daughter.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: And Lloyd was ultimately sentenced to life in prison without parole.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: Wamp wamp.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I just so let's think about this differently.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: So imagine that poor Michelle had survived and she walks into our emergency department and says, My ex-husband strangled me.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: What are what are we thinking?
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, first for me, ABCs, yeah.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, airway, breathing, circulation.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then after that, I mean, a definitely immediate stabilization.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're thinking beyond just looking for fingerprints on someone's neck.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you're did you lose consciousness?
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_02: Do you remember anything?
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_02: Are you having trouble breathing?
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we're looking at everything, right?
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_02: An across the room uh assessment, but also obviously a physical assessment and a mental assessment.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: Everything.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're examining the face, eyes, mouth, neck.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're looking for the the what was it again?
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: The paticcii.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: Patikii, swelling, um, any any bruising or any other injuries.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, but then again, you're doing all that, but we're also listening to what the patient's telling us because a patient may have, you know, minimal, remember.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Minimal external injuries.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, what they're saying to us is also super important.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, uh we might send this patient for an ultrasound and find an injury or uh CT x-ray.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's not something we could just see on the outside, especially if it's fresh, right?
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like bruising might not show up immediately.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: And like, you know, medical literature describes potential complications, including like, you know, what vascular injury, neuro, and airway injury.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: But clinical assessment has to be individual individualized based on the history, the symptoms, and the findings, you know?
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I don't know.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, yeah, yeah.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: You're absolutely that's just that's just my I don't know, that's just my two cents.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but when you look at Michelle's case, really from like the beginning to the end, I mean, the red flags aren't, you know, basically limited to the night that she died.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there was years of conflict with him, you know, and allegations of controlling and of, you know, the abusive behavior, you know, the custody battle, uh, financial battle, and then, you know, him manipulating the children.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think there was there a threat of suicide used, you know, according to Carrie, as part of the ultimatum of, you know, then the murder.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: So her or me, I don't know, right.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: Then the attempt to basically all of this and then maintain their story.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's wild.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's yeah, I mean, it really is.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think that, you know, our jobs as nurses intersect with cases like this.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, obviously, we're not detectives, but we often encounter the people during moments when something is wrong.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and and oftentimes we're the ones calling 911, right?
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um but that's I mean, we have to report certain crimes, gunshots, whatever.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: If someone, if it's domestic violence, we have to leave that up to them.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, maybe their partner never leaves the bedside.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe their partner's ever, you know, answering every question and the stories changing, unexplained injuries.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I used to do when I had uh uh when I suspected abuse, I would just tell the it would oftentimes you know, my patient would be a woman and I would say, Hey, I need you to follow me to the bathroom.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_02: We need a urine sample.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I would go into the bathroom with her and say, Hey, do you do you have are do you feel safe?
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_02: If not, I can escort you a different way.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_02: We can call the police, we can, you know, whatever.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_02: And and there was only one time a woman actually took me up on that, but yeah.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's that used to be my method.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think I think that's like, I don't know, I feel like that's a great method, you know.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, and sometimes, you know, the partner would say, like, oh, well, I can come, I can help her.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, no, I'm sorry.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like this, you can stay.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: This is patient confidentiality and privacy.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna walk her.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_02: And and if they gave us a hard time, then that's when we called security, you know.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's you know, that's when they can tell us, like, you know, you you ask more, you create that privacy, like you said, you know, use appropriate screening, listen, you document.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so okay, Amanda, your out of this case, what is your biggest RN red flag from Michelle's face?
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think honestly, I think that the biggest red flag is going to be.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so torn because I'm sitting there thinking about all the red flags with her actual injuries, right?
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: The petite, the strangulation, uh, the ligature mark on her chin.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_02: But I think ultimately my biggest red flag is everything that Lloyd did.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think the one that made my jaw drop the most, though, Ashley, honestly, is when 36 hours, not even a full two days after this woman was found dead, whether it's by you know suicide or homicide.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, he didn't know at that time.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: He's going up to the court to get his child support canceled.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_02: That to me is the biggest red flag.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: Freaking nuts, dude.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: What about like that's all you're worried about?
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't know.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I feel like maybe like the coercion control.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um I don't know, not just because it automatically predicts murder.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it doesn't, but it's just like the you know, repeated threats and the manipulation and like the financial control and using, you know, the isolation of you know, using children against their parents, uh no, it's wrong.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, I don't know, we just we shouldn't simply just dismiss like as a relationship drama.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_01: No, I don't know.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's just my that's like my big one, I think.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think so too.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_02: I I think that you know your first impression matters, especially when you're the healthcare worker, whether it's nurses, techs, radiologists, doctors.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but when the patient's presentation doesn't fit the diagnoses, then we need to reassess, we need to dig a little deeper.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_02: Order those extra tests, right?
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, one of so, like, I guess like let's do our final thoughts on the case.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one of the most chilling things about Michelle's murder is I think how much planning went into making her death appear to be something else.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like Lloyd had an apparent hotel alibi and his phone remained behind.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then he made sure that he flew across country the following day, and that Michelle's body was positioned to resemble a suicide.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, Carrie initially gave the investigators a story that protected her father.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, for a time it almost worked, but you know, the details didn't line up, and then the hotel video didn't line up, and the physical findings didn't completely line up.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then initially, Carrie's story didn't line up.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: So ultimately, the medical evidence, the surveillance footage, the interviews, the phone evidence, and then the lat the DNA just told a different story.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: And Michelle did not take her own life.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's her ex-husband killed her, and then he and their daughter stage a scene to convince everyone otherwise, which is just it's sickening.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's sickening.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it really is.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a lot of planning for that.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_02: That is a ton of planning.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like we said, Lloyd is literally a walking red flag.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I think that again, this is a lesson for healthcare workers.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: Assessment matters, listening matters, you know, recognizing you know, potential strangulation is not choking.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, just because somebody comes in and they're, you know, breathing doesn't mean that they weren't strangled, you know.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_02: So what might be a tiny finding, a small hemorrhage in somebody's eyeball could indicate something, you know, more serious.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_02: And that might be the reason somebody decides to look close closer.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_02: So it's important to pay attention to those things.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I agree.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: And finally, through all the court proceedings, um, the crime scene evidence, we don't want to lose Michelle in this.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, remember, she was 46 years old, she was a mother of three, and she was a real person before her name ever became associated with a murder case.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Ashley and I'm Amanda, and we're two registered nurses just looking at a true crime through a clinical lens.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_02: And this is Raren's and red flags.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_02: Take this out, Ryan.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_02: Take this out.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_02: No, leave it, Ryan.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_02: No, leave it.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_02: This is Rarens and Red Right.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know what?
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_02: No, we need to leave it.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_02: This is Rarens and Red Red Flags.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening, everybody.