Latest / Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture / Is Your Safety an Idol? Risk, Technology, and the Gospel

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Is Your Safety an Idol? Risk, Technology, and the Gospel · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

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  Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that
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  Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become
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  Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.
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  Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions,
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  Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the
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  Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions
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  Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto
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  Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome this episode
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  Speaker 1: of Thinking Christian on doctor James Spencer, and I'm joined
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  Speaker 1: today by doctor Jeremy Lungren. He is the president of
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  Speaker 1: Nicola Bibla Institute in Norton, Wisconsin, and he also is
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  Speaker 1: an instructor of theology at Being College. And he's written
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  Speaker 1: a book called The Pursuit of Safety, a Theology of
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  Speaker 1: Dounger Risk and Security, and we're going to be talking
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  Speaker 1: about that topic today. And I'm just really excited about
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  Speaker 1: this because this is such an interesting theological topic that
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  Speaker 1: I don't think it's enough coverage. So Jeremy, welcome to
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  Speaker 1: the program. Thanks for being here, man.
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  Speaker 2: Thanks James, it's a pleasure to be with you.
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  Speaker 1: So I mean I actually looked into doing a theology
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  Speaker 1: of risk at one point in my doctoral work, and
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  Speaker 1: I thought this would be the coolest thing ever, and
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  Speaker 1: then ended up doing something on collective remembering and sort
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  Speaker 1: of set the risk part aside. So I was really
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  Speaker 1: excited to kind of see your book. I was like, oh,
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  Speaker 1: somebody did it. This is great. I think it's so needed.
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  Speaker 1: But give me a sense of why choose this topics?
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  Speaker 1: Like what was it about this topic that you're in.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, there were a couple things kind of earlier in
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  Speaker 2: my life. One of the vivid memories I have. I
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  Speaker 2: tell this story often is I think it was like
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  Speaker 2: the first year of my marriage. My wife and I
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  Speaker 2: live in the San Diego area. Drove past an elementary
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  Speaker 2: school and it's said, have a safe summer, And I
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  Speaker 2: just made the joke to my wife, like how many
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  Speaker 2: twelve year old boys are there? Like last day of school?
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  Speaker 2: I'm really pumped. I really hope my summer is and
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  Speaker 2: then like still in the blank, fun, adventurous, awesome, But
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  Speaker 2: then you know what are the teachers and the mom
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  Speaker 2: flowed They want the kids to have a safe summer.
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  Speaker 2: So I just made a little joke. I poked at it,
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  Speaker 2: just just thinking through like is that really like the
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  Speaker 2: ideal that we want for kids? And we love our kids,
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  Speaker 2: we want them to be safe. But then when you
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  Speaker 2: constantly have that message, it's it's saying something to kids,
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  Speaker 2: it's saying this is more important than trying something dangerous.
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  Speaker 2: This is more important than being stretched or growing or
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  Speaker 2: getting hurt and learning how to get back up, things
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  Speaker 2: along those lines. So, I mean, I don't know who
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  Speaker 2: that who the principle of that school was or what
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  Speaker 2: it meant, but that's a pretty common thing that we do.
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  Speaker 2: And then my wife and I were missionaries in Kazakhstan
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  Speaker 2: for a couple of years, and while we were there,
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  Speaker 2: I just noticed oftentimes when you go to a different culture,
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  Speaker 2: you notice things about your own culture just by way
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  Speaker 2: of contrast. And so just noticing in America the amount
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  Speaker 2: of signage, the amount of messaging that we have about
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  Speaker 2: safety and things like that just isn't there. And you
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  Speaker 2: could talk about our legal structure and insurance and laws
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  Speaker 2: and lawyers along those lines, but it was just it
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  Speaker 2: was noticeably absent, and it was on my mind, and
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  Speaker 2: so that got me going. I did my Masters of
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  Speaker 2: Theology at Talbot School of Theology, and that's kind of
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  Speaker 2: where I first started thinking about the idea something related
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  Speaker 2: to safety, maybe risk, something along those lines, and just
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  Speaker 2: started pursuing that, started studying it, as you mentioned, just
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  Speaker 2: finding that there wasn't a there weren't a lot of
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  Speaker 2: books or people that were addressing this topic from a
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  Speaker 2: theological perspective. You found some stuff on like missions why
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  Speaker 2: we as Christians ought to be willing to take risk,
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  Speaker 2: but I really wanted to I spent a lot of
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  Speaker 2: time kind of looking historically at why we think about
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  Speaker 2: safety in the way that we do, why we pursue
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  Speaker 2: it in the way that we do, and so kind
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  Speaker 2: of looking back at kind of some broad societal and
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  Speaker 2: cultural developments that get us to where we're at today.
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  Speaker 2: So that's a very brief overview of kind of how
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  Speaker 2: I got into that topic.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's helpful. I mean, I think it's interesting. As
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  Speaker 1: I read through the book one of the I mean
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  Speaker 1: it's the first chapter, but Tokens of Safety, I thought
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  Speaker 1: that was a really interesting way to sort of bring
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  Speaker 1: us into this topic, and so maybe talk a little
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  Speaker 1: bit about that, just to get people an entree into safety.
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  Speaker 1: Tokens of Safety what you're real to talk about there.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, So again kind of using that tool of evaluating
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  Speaker 2: the culture by looking at like some of that came
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  Speaker 2: from the outside, and they would look at that and
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  Speaker 2: they would say what stands out here? What what do
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  Speaker 2: I notice? And if you were to go to for
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  Speaker 2: us as Americans, to go to another another culture and
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  Speaker 2: somewhere where there's another religion being practiced, we might notice, oh,
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  Speaker 2: there are a lot of religious tokens, or there are
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  Speaker 2: a lot of you know, what are those things hanging mean?
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  Speaker 2: Or what are these little amulets or whatever those things are.
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  Speaker 2: So that's why I use the word token kind of
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  Speaker 2: in that sense of an outsider coming to America would
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  Speaker 2: look and say, there's all these signs that have similar
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  Speaker 2: coloring and similar symbols, whatever those represent, that must be
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  Speaker 2: something really important to this, to this culture. And so
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  Speaker 2: you look at it and you notice that it's it's
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  Speaker 2: related to physical safety. And so you say, and again,
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  Speaker 2: that's something that is common to all cultures, that we
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  Speaker 2: have ways of noticing dangers or communicating with each other
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  Speaker 2: about dangers. But I just thought this is a way
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  Speaker 2: to highlight that this is something very important in our
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  Speaker 2: culture and at least to just say, let's not take
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  Speaker 2: this as a given. Let's not say that's just the
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  Speaker 2: way it ought to be. But let's ask some questions
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  Speaker 2: and say how important is safety? How does it rank
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  Speaker 2: related to other good things?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and if she looked at it sort of through history,
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  Speaker 1: you you do deal with a lot of the inherent
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  Speaker 1: risk of life. Suppose we get to sight right, and
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  Speaker 1: so maybe help us think through I don't know where
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  Speaker 1: the balance is the right word, but the relationship, maybe
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  Speaker 1: the trade off between danger and risk, between danger risk
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  Speaker 1: and see something like that.
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  Speaker 2: Boy, well, it depends on what you're trying to accomplish.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, we live in a fallen world. I have
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  Speaker 2: fun with my students. I'll ask them questions about could
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  Speaker 2: Adam and Eve have have like accidentally tripped and fallen
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  Speaker 2: or injured themselves in Eden or something like that. And
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  Speaker 2: so when we look at the man, so the fact
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  Speaker 2: that we have dangers. The Psalms talk a lot about
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  Speaker 2: how death encroaches on us or other things, hunger and
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  Speaker 2: thirst and enemies are coming after us. And so I
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  Speaker 2: think we have to take that theologically as just a
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  Speaker 2: constant reminder that we're sinners, that we're guilty before God
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  Speaker 2: that we live under well apart from Christ, Hebrew says
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  Speaker 2: that people live under the fear of death. And so
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  Speaker 2: obviously that's the big one. When we think about navigating
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  Speaker 2: not navigating things or taking risks is and I say that,
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  Speaker 2: and maybe this is like going to extreme, but I
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  Speaker 2: say that because you start boiling things back. And what
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  Speaker 2: am I willing to risk? And what am I not
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  Speaker 2: willing to risk? And what do I do if I
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  Speaker 2: lose this thing that is important to me, whether it's
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  Speaker 2: wealth or material goods, whether it's an injury to yourself
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  Speaker 2: or someone you care about. But the ultimate thing that
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  Speaker 2: we are worried about is death. And so Jesus talks
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  Speaker 2: about that where we look at a life following him
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  Speaker 2: and he just goes right there and he says, do
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  Speaker 2: not fear those who can destroy the body. But after that,
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  Speaker 2: I have nothing more they can do. Fear him who
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  Speaker 2: can destroy both body and soul, and hell, it's it's
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  Speaker 2: it's very rare though that on an every day in
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  Speaker 2: everyday life that we face these matters of life and
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  Speaker 2: death and uh, in kind of a total sense. But
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  Speaker 2: then we can also think about some things are more
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  Speaker 2: life giving and some things right, some things lead to
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  Speaker 2: life and some things lead away from life, they lead
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  Speaker 2: to death. And so we have to think about the
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  Speaker 2: things that we're doing. Are they good? Are we are
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  Speaker 2: we okay with with the cost that might be involved.
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  Speaker 2: So on a very practical example, which I think is
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  Speaker 2: where your question was going originally, was just like I
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  Speaker 2: don't know, like how far do you let your kids
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  Speaker 2: go off to play?
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  Speaker 1: Uh?
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  Speaker 2: That might be a good example, right, because you say, well,
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  Speaker 2: they can go in the front yard, but they need
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  Speaker 2: to you know, don't don't go across the curb into
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  Speaker 2: the street, or they can be on our street, but
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  Speaker 2: don't go around the corner, or whatever it is for
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  Speaker 2: the characters. We're thinking about those things because we want
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  Speaker 2: we want our kids to have some level of freedom.
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  Speaker 2: We want them to hang out and play with the
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  Speaker 2: kids down the street, all those sorts of things. And
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  Speaker 2: so how you figure that out exactly that that there's
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  Speaker 2: no formula for it, But we just we look and
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  Speaker 2: we say, I want I want my kids to grow
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  Speaker 2: up and to be competent, to live in this world,
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  Speaker 2: to be able to do things, to overcome difficulties. See,
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  Speaker 2: it does take. It does take wisdom and figuring out
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  Speaker 2: just kind of like where where we draw those lines.
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  Speaker 2: It's hard, though, let me ask. So.
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  Speaker 1: I teach a course for Wheaton in their leadership program,
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  Speaker 1: and one of the things I talked about with leaders
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  Speaker 1: is this idea of the worst case scenario. When they're
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  Speaker 1: in leadership, you're you're trying to figure out you're in
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  Speaker 1: a complex scenario, trying to make a good decision. It's
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  Speaker 1: like you might consider, well, what's the worst case scenario here? Right,
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  Speaker 1: And so I said, I think we need to usually
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  Speaker 1: talk to him about we need to think about the
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  Speaker 1: worst case scenarios on multiple levels. Right, You've got the
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  Speaker 1: worst case scenarios for the organization and just strictly for
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  Speaker 1: the organization. It's not theological, it's not philosophical, like we
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  Speaker 1: parst these things out right. I suppose in reality we can't,
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  Speaker 1: but for the purposes of instruction, it works. See, Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: there's organizational worst case scenario. It's like, you know, the
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  Speaker 1: organization loses all its money and has to you know,
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  Speaker 1: lay off all its employees and it goes out of business.
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  Speaker 1: You know that maybe maybe that's the worst case scenarios.
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  Speaker 1: But from a biblical and theological pushalective. There's another worst
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  Speaker 1: case scenarios, which is maybe something like succeeding by not
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  Speaker 1: being loyal to chroisty hm, you know, or you know,
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  Speaker 1: being able to continue in disobedience, well, you know, instead
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  Speaker 1: of pointing to and glorifying God, right, something that would
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  Speaker 1: be like the sort of basic betrayal or of our
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  Speaker 1: faith is really the worst case scenario that even as
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  Speaker 1: leaders in organizations, he had to be cognizant of that
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  Speaker 1: there is a way for us to dishonor God in
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  Speaker 1: all of this. And so I was reading your book,
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  Speaker 1: I was thinking about the you know, that sort of
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  Speaker 1: approach to this, and you sit back and you say, well,
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  Speaker 1: there is there a fundamental category of risk or risks
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  Speaker 1: it back and says, our vulnerabilities always put us at
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  Speaker 1: risk of being disloiled to God, and so how do
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  Speaker 1: we cultivate us safety then that sort of deep vulnerability
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  Speaker 1: in a broken he or what does that even look like?
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  Speaker 1: And so I was wondering if you had any sort
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  Speaker 1: of take on that.
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  Speaker 2: So I think what I hear you saying is because
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  Speaker 2: there are vulnerabilities, whether it's organizational or professional or even personal,
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  Speaker 2: that there's this temptation that those vulnerabilities caused us to
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  Speaker 2: be tempted to somehow compromise on our theology, compromise on
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  Speaker 2: our core commitment to Christ.
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  Speaker 1: That's right. I mean, I think we see this in
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  Speaker 1: the Old Testament for instance. You know, maybe you put
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  Speaker 1: it in well, I mean even in the garden. You know,
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  Speaker 1: you don't exactly have vulnerabilities there, but the decision seems
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  Speaker 1: to be that we want to be like God, you know,
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  Speaker 1: we want to elevate from our current position to this
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  Speaker 1: new position. You probably see it more in something like
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  Speaker 1: a Genesis eleven. Ones are not our Babbel narrative where
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  Speaker 1: they don't want to be skeptyes, right, they want to
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  Speaker 1: be together, and so in order to be together we
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  Speaker 1: take these steps, and these steps end up being really
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  Speaker 1: in a friction wish what God would want? You see
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  Speaker 1: what I'm meaning.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting how you put it, because the title
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  Speaker 2: of the book, the Pursuit of Safety, came as I
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  Speaker 2: was writing it. I just was using that phrase a lot. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: oftentimes in my mind it added kind of a negative
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  Speaker 2: sense to it because I was trying to describe what
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  Speaker 2: our world does, and I just wanted to say we
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  Speaker 2: want to be safe, but apart from God, when are
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  Speaker 2: we truly saying, but we're oursuing this thing? And can
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  Speaker 2: we ever get to it? And so so as I
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  Speaker 2: think about those vulnerabilities that we have, those temptations that
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  Speaker 2: we have, which as you say, those are actually the
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  Speaker 2: dangers to pursue safety apart from God. And so you're
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  Speaker 2: asking like, how do we how do we stop that?
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  Speaker 2: How do we how do we see our safety in
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  Speaker 2: relationship to God? Is where my mind went. And yeah,
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  Speaker 2: in the Old Testament you see that so much with
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  Speaker 2: with with idolatry, that's the bad. That's one of the
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  Speaker 2: very common frameworks is you know, why did Israel go
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  Speaker 2: after those idols? Because they wanted rain for their crops,
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  Speaker 2: because they wanted to be successful in war, because they
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  Speaker 2: had fleshly desires that they you know, the law of
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  Speaker 2: God prohibited, but they could indulge in those things with
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  Speaker 2: these other gods. And so there were there were those
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  Speaker 2: other things that they desired, and over and over again
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  Speaker 2: they wouldn't trust in God. And I think about in Isaiah,
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  Speaker 2: there are a number of verses that say those who
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  Speaker 2: trust in the Lord, or those who wait on the
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  Speaker 2: Lord won't be put to shame. And so that's what
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  Speaker 2: I think, that's what a positive thing, that's what we
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  Speaker 2: need to be building up in our lives is to say,
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  Speaker 2: I am vulnerable as a creature. I am vulnerable, you know,
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  Speaker 2: because I'm a sinner who's been redeemed, but still I'm
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  Speaker 2: in this corruptible body, this body that can be harmed.
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  Speaker 2: And these the possessions I have, the things I use
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  Speaker 2: in this world, moth and rusk can destroy them. And
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  Speaker 2: so just just that attitude of the heart of going
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  Speaker 2: to God and saying I'm going to wait on you,
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to trust in you.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. So I think I really started thinking about this,
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  Speaker 1: this idea that just sort of surrounds theirs. In the
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  Speaker 1: chapter I'm around ordering Creation talking there about technology, idols,
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  Speaker 1: and the Cross of Christ, and you just think about
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  Speaker 1: those three things together, and I mean, I my mind
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  Speaker 1: was going all over the place in that chapter, because
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  Speaker 1: you know, you have something like building a parrot builder
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  Speaker 1: on the top of your house, right, I mean we
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  Speaker 1: see this in the in the legal literature, and it's like, well,
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  Speaker 1: that's a firm of technology that we're using now to
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  Speaker 1: develop a safety net, so to speak. Form so that
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  Speaker 1: people don't fall off the house, right. I mean, oh,
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  Speaker 1: you have you have appropriate uses for this stuff, but
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  Speaker 1: then you also have extremely inappropriate uses for this stuff.
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  Speaker 1: And so I appreciate you saying like it comes back
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  Speaker 1: to wisdom, but I'd be interested to hear you talk
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  Speaker 1: even a little bit about how you think through technology
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  Speaker 1: from a risk and safety perspective, and then maybe we
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  Speaker 1: can talk back on what you what you do in
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  Speaker 1: that chapter with Across of Christ.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if you've read much of the
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  Speaker 2: Jacqua Alul. He talks about Cain and the city that
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  Speaker 2: he builds, And I don't agree with everything that that
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  Speaker 2: Alul says, but you just he gets your mind, your
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  Speaker 2: imagination going and thinking through what was Cain trying to
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  Speaker 2: do in building the city. There's the textual irony there
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  Speaker 2: that he went to the land of wandering to establish himself,
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  Speaker 2: to establish that. Yeah, it's just a great like sociological
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  Speaker 2: and psychological and fundamentally spiritual insight to say you're cast
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  Speaker 2: out of the presence of God, you murder your brother.
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  Speaker 2: There's some pride and some hubris involved in that. And
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  Speaker 2: then Cain becomes the forefather of all these early technologies.
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  Speaker 2: You read his genealogy, and his descendants are known for
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  Speaker 2: basics and agriculture and technology and music and things along
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  Speaker 2: those lines, things which aren't inherently evil. Uh but but
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  Speaker 2: there's some sense in which humanity's earliest development of technology
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  Speaker 2: is you think about it on just a very primal
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  Speaker 2: level of you need food and shelter and things like that. Confession.
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  Speaker 2: I've watched a couple of YouTube videos about like architecture
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: and designing houses, and the lady talks about how we
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  Speaker 2: love to be when you go to a restaurant or
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  Speaker 2: a coffee shop, you want to sit in a corner
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  Speaker 2: because it makes you feel safe, you know, and a
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  Speaker 2: lot of little things like that and interesting. You know,
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  Speaker 2: it's so true that that technology we oftent has the
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  Speaker 2: technology we can't get past, like the glowy screen and
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  Speaker 2: the flashy lights, and just say, what is this thing
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  Speaker 2: doing to my heart? And I mean it does a
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  Speaker 2: lot of things to our hearts related to our relationships
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  Speaker 2: with other people, our needs to feel important and efficient
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  Speaker 2: and all those things. So when it comes to safety,
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  Speaker 2: you just say, the technology, whatever it is, if it's
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  Speaker 2: a parapet wall a thousand years ago, if it's you know,
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  Speaker 2: a seat belt one hundred years ago, or if it's
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  Speaker 2: an air bag and the automatic breaking systems and all
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  Speaker 2: the sensors today, Like what is what is that thing
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  Speaker 2: promising you? What is it giving you? Uh? And and
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  Speaker 2: it's it's giving you at least some perception of control
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  Speaker 2: of the physical world around you. And again you go
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: back to Caine, and he didn't want to trust God, right,
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: he wanted to go out and do it on his
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: own without trusting God. And I think a little is
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: right that in our quest for technology, that's not all
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: that technology is, but there are certainly remnants of that
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: in uh, in what we're doing, like like what are
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: we chasing when we're building these things? I am? I
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: almost asked this question in a sermon I preached recently
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: out a church, but I wanted to ask the question
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: you think about our phones, the tracking and for families,
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: like if you're a mom and you've got your kids,
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: you can find my phone or whatever. And I just
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: wanted to like ask the questions. So ask this question
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: for the audience. Since you've gotten that feature, are you
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: less anxious or more anxious?
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: Because where are you going? I am ten years ago
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: when Life three sixty he is becoming the thing or
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: more than that? What was it promising you? Is promising
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: you like, where are my kids right now? What are
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: they doing? And it was going to take away that anxiety.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: And so that's my question, are you less anxious or
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: more anxious? You said, you know your answer, I'm furious
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: what it is.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Well, i'd say my answer is because so we got
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: Life three sixty and as a gen x er right
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: who grew up with the pub service ads that said,
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: it's ten o'clock to know where your children are? All right?
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: You remember, I els, I'm looking at this thing, going
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: this is nuts, right, And so early on I was
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: kind of tracking the kids all over the place. And
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: then my son got in a car accident. Nobody's really hurt,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: but he gets in an accident, and you all of
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: a sudden to realize that the only thing this thing
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: is good for is completely reacted. Right, he's hurt off
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: that accident. I can't do anything right. I can only
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: get to where he is a few minutes faster. And
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: so I kind of stopped using it unless I want
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: the kids to stopping by the store or something like that.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: But I like early on, I could definitely feel it's like,
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: oh man, where are they what are they doing with it?
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: And and now I just kind of use it as
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: this could be convenient for me if they're if they're
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: out and about close to somewhere that I need something,
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: I'm going to ask him to pick it up. But
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: I can definitely say it would it would drive me
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: crazy if I read it. But I think it was
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: my son's accident where I just kind of sat back
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: and I'm like, this thing isn't keeping anybody's right. It's
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: only allowing me to react a little bit quipment or would.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: And the reality was, you know, when I got there
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: on my son's accident, the cops already there. You know,
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: there's there are people who were handling it.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: I'm just now there as sort of emotional support and
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: that's it. So yeah, I think we've gone a little
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: overboard with some of its.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: But yeah, my daughter got into an accident reason, you know,
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: and again not not really hurt, dis damage to another
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: kid's car. And the funny thing with that was that
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: her phone since she was in an accident, and then
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: there are some sort of safety settings that we didn't
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: set up and we didn't really know what they were doing,
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: so it called like another teenage of hers, a guy
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: that was somehow her default emergency compact. And then her
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: phone was as she's sitting there recovering, the phone was
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: just blasting, you've been in an accident. You've been in
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: an accident or something like that, as she's trying to
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: turn it off and the battery is almost dead and
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: it was, and then her friends wondering, why are you
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: calling me? So she's she's dealing with all that stuff,
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: and you know, those questions are worth asking Are you
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: less anxious now because of it? And I think it
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: reveals a lot of important things. It reveals that we
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: have an ability as people, as families, as cultures to
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: take new technology. And the way I describe it in
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: the book is technology at first kind of like shocks you.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: It overwhelms you, and it's this new, strange thing, and
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: we're afraid of it, but we're also drawn to it,
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: and then it just becomes normal. When we talk about technology,
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: we usually mean like screens and devices like that. Today,
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: you know, I don't mean the chair that I'm sitting
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: on or troelace. Is there anything though that's technology. But
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: that's just we've incorporated that, so we're used to it. Yeah.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: So so it shows us that, yeah, that we have
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: like this emotional response to technology. Uh, it also shows
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: us that we could manage it. I liked what you
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: said about Uh you could let it, Uh life three
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: sixty stress you out if you wanted to. So it
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: shows Okay, you've got some level of control over that.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: You don't have to be controlled by it. You can,
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: you can exercise wisdom, take control, take some control. So
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: when we think about technology and safety, that that's one
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: of the themes that I was thinking a lot about
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: was what do we do with the promises that technology makes?
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: You can think of lots of ironic examples of technology
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: that makes one thing safer and three other things more dangerous,
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: and what you know, what do you what do you
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: do with those things? And and how how do we
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: navigate those things? But it's just I don't know. I
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: would encourage all of us to have not to be
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: under impressed with technology.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I've always kind of thought of our hearts technology,
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: and I think especially in those cane narratives you look
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: at those maybe even the fig leaf and the skin
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: coverings that God gives you know, right early, you know,
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: just a chaper before, but as a response to brokenness.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: Technology is a response to brokenness. And so with with Cain,
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: you know, he is pushed out of this from before
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: the face of God, given the mark so that nobody
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: kills him. But now he's he's also been alienated from
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: the land. But no, God tells him that the lend
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: is not going to meel the fruit that it used
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: to for him, and so he's got to find a
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: whole different way of life. And it's almost like, well,
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: there's no there's no real big surprise that technology was
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: one of the solutions that he ends upwards, that he
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: goes down, builds this sea, that his family develops pichologies
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: through their agers. It's he's sent out in a very
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: vulnerable physician, and I guess that that'd be My next
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: question is, how do you really see when you're talking
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: about risk and vulnerability? Are those two sides of the
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: same coin, Like, are they worries, sentinives or would you
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: distinguish anything between those two.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: Vulnerable the word vulnerable, the root of that just means woundable, Uh,
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: that you're able to be wounded. Uh. And then with risk.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: The kind of the earlier usage usage of the word risk, uh,
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: implied that there was something to gain. So usually when
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: we talk about being being vulnerable, Uh, yeah, it's just
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: the fact that you have you know, metaphorically and underbelly
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: right their soft their soft spots. We often use that
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: word more often in a relational or emotional sense, you know,
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: being vulnerable with each other. But I think that people
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: will make arguments that it's it's good to be vulnerable
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: with other people because there are gains to be made
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: because of it. So in that sense, you could say
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: you're you're taking a risk where you're saying, I'm gonna
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: put myself out there with this other person, or maybe
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: maybe in a more physical sense of I'm gonna be
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: I'm exposing myself to a possible infection, or you know,
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: if you pick up someone stranded on the side of
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: the road, you're you're you're making yourself vulnerable to who
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: is this person and what what might you do? Uh?
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: But but you're saying there are things to be gained
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: for it of showing kindness to this person that needs help.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: So you're you're willing to put yourself in something of
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: a vulnerable situation. Uh yeah. And and then with risk,
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: we all we often think about it as you know,
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: to take the risk and you can't win if you
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: don't play type thing. Uh though oftentimes risk today, risk
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: is often used more as a synonym just danger, where
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: you don't necessarily have that what's the thing that can
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: be gained when you take a risk. It's more like
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: that's a risk, be careful, just that's something that can
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: harm you. So that's a little I spent a lot
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: of time kind of parson those words and looking.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: A little Yeah, what do you see as the I mean,
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: I know you cover the late modern risk in the book,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: but do you see what you see today as our
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: big risks?
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: Oh? What? I I was finishing writing this during COVID,
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: so that was on my mind. A lot was easy
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: to identify then, Yeah, yeah, I had written most of
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: it before that, but was kind of finishing up and
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: editing that kind of during that timeframe. So that was
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: the one issue that was on my mind. And obviously
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: there are a lot of politics involved in those things
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: as well, and so that was obviously that was a
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: snapshot of how we as a society, how how we
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: just look at how dangerous is this thing? What do
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: we need to do all those sorts of things. I
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: don't know if I don't think I have anything ground
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: for either or know what's say about about COVID in particular.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: But what are our risks today? I think a lot
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: about children. I think a lot and young adults. You know,
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: I work here at Nickolay Bible institu do with like,
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: you know, eighteen to twenty four year olds and just
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: looking at their lives a lot, And probably the thing
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: that's the biggest on my heart is our unwillingness to
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: let them take risks and experience real consequences for things.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: And we do that under the under this idea of
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: protecting them and helping them develop. But then I look
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: at people. I think of young men, They're hungry to
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: be challenged, they want to be pushed, they want to
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: be stretched. I see, I see a lot of guys
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: rise to the occasion with that. So that's that's one
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: of the big things that concerns me is how the
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: older generation is kind of trying to protect younger people,
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: but but in doing so cutting them off from developing
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: and growing and learning. How to you know what, what's
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: the worst that can happen. Well, you know, the worst
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: that can happen rarely happens, but something bad happens. And okay,
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: so how do you how do you get up? How
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: do you how do you overcome that? I think about
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: that a lot.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, do you think? I mean, when you think about
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: risks throughout the ages? You know, obviously there are some
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: of these that are going to be like physical risks.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: And I just finished up to the talking new guy
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: about their German Reformation and he's like, you know, in
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: Martin Luther's a Day, basically people are just dying right
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: insign of you. I mean it you physical risks of
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: just life, info, mortality, illness, play, you know, all those things.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: Those are real, tangible risks sitting right in front of you.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: But then you also have sort of the what we
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: might call the symbolic risk, right, that's presence within the
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: institutions of the day, which were selling of indulgences and
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: being taken advantage of by an institution that really should
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: have been for you but ended up being against you,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: you know, and not and having sort of an ignorance
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: of what's going on simply because you you don't read,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: you don't you know, you don't speak labs, you don't
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: you know all these different things that were going on
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: in that Reformation period. So you've got these two like
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: sort of very tangible risk, but then you've got also
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: this subversive risk. Right do you see that across I'm
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: sure you see it across all periods, But I'm kind
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: of wondering how you think about the Is that a
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: distinction that matters?
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: Now? That that's really good. It makes me think of
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: when Jesus says that life is more than food and
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: the body is more than clothing. Yeah, and you think, well,
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: what is it then? And and on that physical level
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: where there's you know, in the fifteen hundreds, where there's
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: infant mortality, there there are diseases and things like that,
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: and that those are the sicknesses of the body. Those
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: are the life and death things, and those things are
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: so important and they just they have a way of
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: shouting at you when things are going on on that level.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: And Jesus says life is more than this, right, and
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: so what is that more? And so when you're talking
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: about some of those symbolic risks, I think that we
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: could look at those things and say that's pointing to
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: the more. Whatever Jesus is talking about when says life
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: is more than than life, is more than clothing the body,
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: And now I'm misquoting Jesus, but whatever the more is there,
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: and it's it's it's God gives us life. But what
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: is this life for? What is its purpose? What is
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: its teleology? Or it's tell us where is it going?
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: And one of the criticisms that we can make of
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: the current age that we live in is that we
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: don't have an end. We don't give any goals for
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: our young people to pursue, even like within this life,
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: right you could say the you know, seventy to eighty
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: years that God gives you on this earth. There's an
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: arc to that. There's there are creational goods, there are
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: careers and families and things that you can be doing,
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: sacrifices that are worth making, discipline risks that you can
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: take just within the horizon of time of the days
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: on this earth. And we don't even give young people
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: that so often. And I think that people want to know, like,
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: I'm preserving my life, but what am I saving it for? What?
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: Like I want to spend in my life? I want
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: to use my life, So if I'm saving it now,
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: what is it for then? Obviously, as for us as Christians,
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: we look beyond the horizon of death, we look beyond
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: the rison of time to say we are we want
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: to take risks, We want to be pushing for the
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: age to come as well, and we need to give
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: that to young people. We need to encourage them. We
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: need to always match that with wisdom. I know people
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: get concerned that then you're going to have just just
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: kind of foolish danger, and Proverbs talks a lot about that, right,
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: the fool just walks into trouble, and we don't want that.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: That's not what we're trying to encourage. Where we are
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: trying to trying to encourage people to step out in
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: a world where we don't know the future, we don't
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: know what tomorrow holds, where we take actions, and we
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: don't know exactly what the outcome is going to be.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: But Safety says, you always want to know what the
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: outcome is going to be before you do the thing.
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: So, I mean, I'm gonna try to pull a couple
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: of strands together this conversation, right, So, I know you've
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: got a chapter of the book on discipleship. You mentioned
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: working with young people, and these young men who are
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: yearning for something more a sense of adventure or a
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: desired pushed you know, and then we've got this sort
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: of symbolic risk kind of concept, and this this more
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: than you know, clothing more than a food kind of idea.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: And I think one of the things I've been concerned
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: with sort lately that I see is a risk. I
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: suppose it is like is like Andrew t o right,
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: So not them particularly, okay, but in the vapping where
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: young men don't have that purpose and we're not giving
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: them that purpose, people like Andrew Bait or even in
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: Christian verse Joe ta right who call young men team
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: Chiesmo and bravado and as opposed to calling them to discipleship,
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: to me is a real areer. And so maybe talk
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: true for me a little bit at how a real
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: how you see the connection of discipleship being part of
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: developing an appropriate understanding of safety and risk?
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I haven't consumed a lot of Andrew Tate content,
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: but but I've heard of described several times basically how
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: you did.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: It's as well as you think it is. Yeah, I
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: don't watch it either, but it's yeah, all.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: Right, and and so yeah, so the concern is, you know,
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: what what do we do with with young guys in
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: particular who are what like well, like I guess on
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: the face of it, they would be like not living
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: godly lives, being disrespectful to women, being prideful, selfish thing.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: Is that kind of the it's sort of the tone
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: and maybe the maybe the question is just this, like,
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: I think we've got a lot of I think there
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: is content out there within the Christian world that does
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: something similar to what Andrew Tate is doing, and it's
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: calling these these young men to be masters of their
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: domain in like sort of a like I said, a
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: machismo way. I don't know whether you ever watched pro wrestling,
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: but you know there used to be this guy who
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: was oozing machismo right like you. I can't remember Razor Ramone,
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: I think is what his name work. And you know,
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: he'd come out and he was like this uber macho guy.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: And it feels like what we're what we're pushing these
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: many young men to is that machismo, right. It's not,
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: it's not a real substance. It's just almost like this
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: facade of manliness as opposed to something more deeply rooted
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: in discipleship. And so okay, we don't have to go
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: to the manhood route, but that really more example. But
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: I guess my question is how do we link up
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: this notion of safety and risk to discipleship, Like how
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: do these things connect together? Do they emerge out of discipleship?
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: So we begin to understand risk reward, We begin to
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: understand you know, safety, danger, Like how do you see
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: those things fitting together? What's the role of discipleship maybe
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: in developing a theology or.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so discipleship following Jesus living living a life like his.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: And it's an interesting topic. It's it's not one that
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: I've I've connected to my book a lot. Yeah, I'm
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: trying to think think through because I don't I don't
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: want to discourage young men from taking appropriate risks, and
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: I don't want to, like I think, you know, God
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: created a male and female. There's masculinity and femininity, and
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: so I want there to be good masculinity. And I
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: don't know, you know, people look at studies of whether
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: men are more willing to take risks than women and
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: things like that, so there's probably something to them. Just
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: the way men and women are created, or you look
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: at the role of a mother with a young child
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: and the role of a fadder, and so I want
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: to be careful like not to not to discourage like
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: a good, healthy development of those things, because I think
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: we that would be part of discipleships, where discipleship is
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: being conformed to the image of Christ, following him to
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: become whoever it is that God has made you to be.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: And it's I talk in the book about the kind
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: of the curriculum of discipleship of how Jesus leads leads
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: us through that of dying to ourselves, taking up our
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: cross and and following him and and and ultimately right
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: that those things aren't in conflict with each other if
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: you know you're being a leader, if God calls you
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: to be a leader, while at the same time recognizing
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: that the first shall be last and the last last
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: shall be first. And so uh, discipleship mhm, it's taking
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: this world. It's getting us back to the to the
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: trajectory that we should have been on all along as
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: as as men and women created by God. And so
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: sin obviously rebellion takes us off track from that. And
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: you you know, in doing a theology of safety, I
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: had a lot of people ask me early on do
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: you want to do like being saved or salvation or
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: something like that, and I was always very instant, No,
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: I want to do safety. I want to look at
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: our life in this physical world, physical safety on that level,
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: because I think something like discipleship can instruct us on
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: those things. And you read the Gospels and obviously Jesus says,
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: God who can destroy body and soul, he's the one
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: that you fear. You don't fear those who can destroy
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: the body. And so there's eternal life, which is that
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: ultimate thing that we're going for. But Jesus doesn't neglect
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: earthly life. He just put it in its proper place.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: And so maybe to try and answer your question, I
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: would say that I think the discipleship is so important
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: for how we take risks, how we interact with other people,
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: the physical world around us, the machines and the technology
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: that we operate and fix and engage with, and all
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: those sorts of things that there's a place in the
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: curriculum of discipleship to say here's how to do this appropriately.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, No, that's good. I you know, I know Jesus, doesn't.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: I think there's a way to read Jesus that is
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: way to select days in white. You know, you say, well,
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: a meek will inherit the worth, and so everybody should
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: just been neiq right. But at the end of the day,
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: following Jesus was a risky activity. I mean, there's a
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: reason that disciples end up running away the end. It
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: wasn't because they felt safe, and I think that you
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: know are but you know, even that running away you
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: sort of recognize that almost as an immature necessity of
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: risk assessment versus what you see the apostles doing and acts,
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: which is just you know, I mean Steven had to
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: know he was getting stoned. Uh, you know, I mean
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: these guys knew they were at risk of being put
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: in jail, and they just took the risks, you know
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: what I'm saying. Like, there is a you see a
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: development in some of that across these books where you
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: can really tell the disciples are coming into their own
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: and recalculating these risks. It's kind of as they go.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I was actually this morning in my class, we
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: were talking about how to read the Gospels, and I said,
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: you know, talk about the cross being central, And I said,
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: you read the Gospels for the first time, and it
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: looks like Jesus just fails because he says, just take
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: up your cross and follow me. And then at the
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: moment where Jesus literally takes up his cross, they all
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: stop follow right, they're out. And but but Jesus knew
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: that strike the shepherd and the sheep will scatter. And
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: then I said, you read the Gospels and then you
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: get the end, the cross, the resurrection, and then you
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: reread it again and you say, Okay, Jesus is calling
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: these these disciples to follow him, knowing that they can't
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: actually follow him. And then yeah, you get to the
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: Book of Acts where the Holy Spirit gives them power.
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: And then that's when you see those disciples laying down
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: their lives as Jesus had done. And and you say, oh,
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: we need the cross in order to do that. Something
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: I thought as you were talking about that was the
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: way in which those right the apostles, those those young
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: Jewish disciples of Christ. Uh. You see with the Pharisees,
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: you see with the Sanhedrin and the establishment, and then
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: the Roman rulers as well, with Paul, a lot of
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: pressure for them to just kind of stay in their
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: lane and do what they're supposed to do. And uh, yeah,
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: the salvation of the world is at stake. But we'd
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: really like you to not be too disruptive to what
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: we've got going on. And that's where I don't want
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: to discourage young men. You know. That's where I say
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: there are counterfeits, right right, There were the zealots. There
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: were counterfeits to this who wanted to break up societal
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: norms or or or push buttons. Uh yeah, with with
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: with sinful motivations. Uh and again getting back to wisdom
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: to say no, there are appropriate times where God's calling
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: people to take risks in his name and in the
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: ways that's gonna irritate people in ways that's gonna gonna
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: ruffle some feathers. And uh yeah. Yeah, So I get
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: kind of you the concern that you're talking about where
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: people are maybe being brash or overly abrasive just for
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: the sake of doing that stuff. But yeah, there are
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: good high things that Christ is calling these young people
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: in our day two.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed. I mean, it's an interesting conungrum because you
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: don't want to do it too safe. To your point,
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: you know, like the protectivism that we're building into some
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: of this is not be good for anybody either. Then,
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: you know, encouraging someone to be risky in ways that
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: don't really reflect Christ is another problem. And so we've
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: got to sort of figure out how to be people
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: who take risks and are willing to be unsafe while
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: following Jesus.
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and and uh, something I've thought about with that
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: is when you're taking a risk, like like what are
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: you risking? And uh, you know, what if you what
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: if you fail? Kind of again, get to that point
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: and when when you look in the Bible, whether it's
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: Daniel or Shaddock, me shock in the bed and go
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: things like that where it's like our God is able
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: to save us, but even if he's done you, if
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: you're knocking a bow down and worship, and that's I mean,
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: I don't know that a little bit of much Easmo
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: to say that to the nevikanezer Ye know that's not
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: not in an ata sense, but it's like that's courageous.
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: That was that that was something and but they looked
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: at it and I don't know, like like again, so
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: what what I imagine Andrew Tat is like I'm like
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: what is that guy risking? Like what what is he
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: putting out there? Maybe maybe an online persona, maybe some fame. Right,
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: that's that's what he's gambling with, or that's what he's
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: he's negotiating with, and and kind of the shocking things
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: that he's doing, and and yeah, that's clearly just folly. Right,
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: that's clearly in that category of stuff that's just gonna
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: it's it's here and then it vanishes quickly away. But
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: but being faithful to God, not bowing down to an idol,
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: standing up for uh, for truth, bearing witness to Christ again,
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: just just amazing things that we want to encourage courage
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: people to do, like take a risk for the sake
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: of loving your neighbor, take a risk for the sake
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: of the honor of God. And then that's a that's
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: that's a win win situation right where you can say,
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: even if my this institution of this organization uh is
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: gone tomorrow, Uh, it was worth it because the nayar
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: of Christ is glorified.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a great rate put it. It
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: has to be that sort of centered on following Jesus,
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: honoring God, serving others, and in that is going to
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: come in inherent risks. I mean, I do think that's
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: sort of what we see, especially I mean pending the
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: Book of Acts a really interesting place to look because
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: you do see them in danger most of the time.
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: There's not a lot of time where they're like, oh,
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: this is great. Well.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: And another interesting connection back in the Book of Daniel
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: is that with Daniel and Shadow Mushak and Bend to Go,
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: I think, you know, you could look there and say,
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: what originally put them kind of on the radar was
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: the fact that they wouldn't eat the king's diet, right,
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: so they made it. They took us. They made a
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: small stand for obedience to God's law, and that was
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: kind of the first thing that they did, which was,
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: you know, kind of out out of the ordinary. And again,
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: you think about it, it's very rare that you're in
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: an organization where every day you're making a decision that's
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: going to affect the survival. I mean, I hope not right,
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: that's going to affect our Bible right, And the same thing.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: In our lives, we navigate physical dangers and sometimes we
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: have close calls with death. I almost hit a deer
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: a couple of nights ago, I wasn't going fast enough
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: for me or the deer to die. But occasionally, like
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: things like that happened. But most of the time you're
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: making decisions within your organizations or in your church or
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: the ministry, with your family, whatever it is, that are
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: again kind of just leading you on the path of
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: life or leading you a little bit on the path
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: of death. And so often that's how that's how Satan works, Right,
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: is the little compromises more than the big ones.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm wondering maybe last question here and then we'll
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: sure close this out. But you know, you talk about
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: putting safety in its plate, and I guess I'm wondering
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: where you think that is. We people with maybe a
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: little practical understowing them how to think about safety and Christian.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, putting safety in its place. My temperament, Uh what
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: was you know when I was younger, it was was
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: to be cynical of uh kind of safety procedures like this,
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: We're just kind of doing this to please someone or
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: something like that. And with age, I've come to say, no, safety,
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: physical safety is a good thing. You look at how
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: much God cares about that, and so on that level,
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: we want to have a high view of safety the
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: value of human life. Uh, we want to do what
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: we can to relieve the suffering of other people. That's
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: so much of Christ's ministry as he heals people, He
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: comes to people or suffering and brings them, brings them
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: out of it. And but in putting safety in its place. Bartimaeus, right,
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: what a great little story where we know what Jesus
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: says to his disciples. He says, follow me, take up
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: your cross. Right, He's pointing them towards death. And so
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: he finds blind Bartimaeus and that it's a short little snippet,
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: short little scene in the Gospels, and it just says
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: that he healed Bartimaeus, and that Bartimaeus got up and
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: followed him on his way. And that's putting safety in
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: its place. That's saying when Christ protects me, when he,
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: you know, just gives me the means to be safe,
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: that's a gift from him. But then I instantly turn
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: around and follow him and be willing to lay down
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: my life for his sake and for the sake of others.
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: And I think, if you can have that in your mind,
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: he just makes all those those thousand little decisions on
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: what do I let the kids do where do I
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: let the teenagers? How far can they drive? And all
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: visual things that we're constantly trying to navigate. You can
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: build an algorithm, you can have a spreadsheet, You can
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: call an insurance company and ask them what they'd like
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: you to do, and uh right, and and that just
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: oftentimes we were pursuing safety, but the result is it
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: just becomes a burden to us. And so I think
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: I think we put safety in its place, receive it
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: as a good thing. But if if the pursuit of
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: safety is sucking the life out of you, then it's
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: not doing what it's intended to do. There's something wrong there,
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: and we want to pursue life and receive the safety
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: that God gives along the way with thankfulness.
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: Really helpful, jan Like I said, I began, I really
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: sure you tackle this sedge. I think it's a it's
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: one of those, like I said, I was really interested
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: in it and just went a different way. But I
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: was so happy to find your book and get to
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: read it and interact with it, so really appreciate it.
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: And to everybody out there, I just recommend The Suit
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: of Safety by Jeremy Langren. I'll put the link to
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: the book there. It is right there. If you're watching
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: on video, you got you got a little flash of it.
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: But I would just encourage you. I got the link
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: in the description. This is an ivspy book, So if
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: you ordered off IVPS website, you get a twenty percent off,
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: just to put in the discount codes that they provide,
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: and just really encourage you to take a look at this.
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: Safety is such a big issue nowadays in our world,
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: and you know we're seeing this over and over and again.
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: So I think this is really timely work and would
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: just encourage.
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: You to pick it up.
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: So again, Jeremy, thanks for being here. Really appreciated you
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: interacting on this.
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much. James. I appreciate your questions.
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: Know swe all right, Hey, everybody, we'll catch you on
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: the next episode of Thinking Christian Take care. I just
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: want to take a second to thank the team at
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network.
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.