Latest / The Overland Journal Podcast / Beyond the Horizon with Landcruising Adventure: Tales of Exploration and Resilience

Transcript

Beyond the Horizon with Landcruising Adventure: Tales of Exploration and Resilience · The Overland Journal Podcast

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Kun. Thank you so much for being on the podcast
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: with me this morning. Yeah, and it's evening for you.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Where are you are in the world.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: I'm in the Netherlands. It's early evening so at five pm. Yeah,
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: still light here in Europe.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: I'm in another only stay light late in the day.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah until ten eleven, over Lucky.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: It is such an honor to have you on the podcast.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: You have inspired. You and Karen have inspired so many people,
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: myself included. I have just loved following along on your
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: journeys and the fact that you never stayed away from
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: the challenging roads. You went to the most remote and
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: interesting countries in the world, and that really inspired me
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: that it was possible to do that, and you both
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: always did it with such a humble spirit and an openness,
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: and you always had such positive experiences with the people
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: that it showed me that the experience that someone has
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: as a traveler is entirely dependent on their own attitude.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: And a special thanks to Real Truck for their support
• 1:13
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• 1:17
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• 1:22
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• 1:27
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• 1:31
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• 1:36
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• 1:45
  Speaker 1: souls that are ready to unplug and check in to
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: pure wilderness. Bring your truck to life at real truck
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: dot com. Thanks again, Real Truck. Maybe we'll talk about
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: that first. What do you feel like Karen and you
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: have done as travelers that's helped make it so positive
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: of an experience for you.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: I think that in the beginning, we just wanted to
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: get away, and we didn't know how. There was no
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: handbook where maybe there was, but we didn't know where
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: it was, and we just did things like we used
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: to do when we were kids. You hop on a
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: bicycle and you just go explore. And then that bicycle
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: turned into a motorcycle. And then Karen said, motorcycles are
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: great for we cand getaways, but not for that what
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: I had in mind. I wanted to get to Asia
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: and she said no. And then this was two thousand
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: and three. Karen had never seen the internet, so I
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: printed some stories what I found from other travels in Africa,
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: because from Europe, Africa was the most normal thing that
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: people from Britain traveled to. And then she said, wow,
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: public transport is nice for a little bit, but we're
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: always stuck in from city to city. We want something
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: like that. But I just gave her. And so I
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: asked my friends, we need wheels and what should we get.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: And then one of our friends pointed me into an
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: advert in the German Cars for sale and we went
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: to have a look. And I didn't know jack about
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: diesel cars, and so we brought a friend and Karen
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: and I saw the vehicle, the land Cruiser, and said, wow,
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: this is it. And my friend saw us looking and
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: she said, hold your horses. Let's first see if this
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: is a sound vehicle. And it was snow. It was
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: mine if freezing, but the car was cold and it
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: just glowed and started like that and we made a
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: test drive and then that's it the rest of history.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: And we just adapted that cruiser. It had been traveling before,
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: so it had a nice shell in the bag, but
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: we just painted it and adapted it to a liking.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: That's it and.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: Stuff you put it, you painted it that yellow color.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: It was a bit base yellowish. Yeah, so I did
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: not do that. The previous owner did. And also not
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: only the outside, the inside, the underside, every part of
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: that vehicle is yellow. And from the beginning I didn't
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: understand why, but later we learned that if you lose
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: something or you're in a workshop and stuff lying around,
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: that's that color yellow. He said, Oh, I think you
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: guys missed something. This should also be on the truck.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: Oh no, that's okay. I said, no, Look, this is
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: all a color. Everything is that color.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: That's smart. That's smart. And it became such an iconic vehicle.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: It sounds as if you guys traveled for over two
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: years in the same car YEP twenty one and how
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: many kilometers do you think or do you even know?
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: Not for sure, but we estimate roughly half a million
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: kilometers without the engine being opened or overhauled.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: Incredible. Only an an cruiser could do that.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it is. We never anticipated that. We we
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: never planned this. We just it naturally evolved. We just
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: wanted to get to Asia, and once we got there,
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: we said, we're not going back. How can we make
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: this last? And then stuff.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: Happened, and how did you make it last? How did
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: you make a way a plan to continue to travel.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: To continue We left off our savings in the beginning,
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: and then I think after I had a very simple
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: HTML website that I built myself to get the family
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: informed every two weeks or whatever. And somehow that text
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: and very small images got to an editor in the
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: Netherlands and we received an email, Hey, guys, great stuff
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: you have there. Would you mind contributing to our magazine?
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: And so I replied, I have no idea how to
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: get images to you, and also this sounds like work,
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: and that is something that we tried to get away from.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: And then when the funds started plumitting and plumitting, that
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: email arrived again. So I said, okay, let's make a test,
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: and we went to the Bangkok Hilton Hotel and drank
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: very expensive tea in the lobby and we could hook
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: up the laptop to the internet, and I think it
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: took me six hours to get six hundred megs of
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: images through there, and then within a few weeks we've
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: got in the replies great guys more every month and
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: they paid. So we did that for eighteen years. Unbelievable
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: every month. Yeah, Karen did mother job writing all those
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: very nice articles.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you've contributed a lot to Overland Journal through
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: the years, at least I can think of at least
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: twelve to thirteen years you've been contributing to Overland Journal.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: You've had some incredible cover photos and spreads in the magazine.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: Your images are always stunning.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: When you guys, when you send me the first issues
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: of the Overland Journal or I received them somehow, I
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: looked at this magazine. I told Karen, this is where
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: we want to be. We want to get in this
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: magazine the quality and the space you guys offer without
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: any There are so many magazines that have published our
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: stories and most of them have vanished. But for most
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: of them, we are just feeling for the advert and
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: in Overland Journal that's the way around.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: We've always been careful to have a very low ad
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: percentage in the magazine.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: So yeah, and good at.
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: Where we try, We really try. And your images. Let's
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: talk a little bit about your background. Before you guys
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: got started traveling, you were a photographer and a graphic designer,
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about how that helped
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: you in your travels to earn a living as well.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: I have always been fond of photography, and that's it had.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: The foundation is in my education, and I remember my
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: photography teacher the first lessons, he handed out piece of
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: carton with a whole square hole in it, and every
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: student got a piece of carden with a square hole
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: in it, and he says, this is your camera for today.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: I want you to go outside and snap frame, snap
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: images in your head. It doesn't matter if it's on
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: film or whatever. Framing is the thing you have to learn.
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: And that had always stayed with me, even so that
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: when I'm driving the vehicle and I'm in a bizarre
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: position with the vehicle that I can't get out because
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: I'm having my foots on the brake and clutch, I
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: tell Karen to go outside, take the camera and position
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: yourself exactly in this spot that spot, lower deeper through
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: the knees, and then aim the camera at this and
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: this point. I know exactly what she is seeing through
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: the view. I know what the frame should be and
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: I can't explain it. But you walk somewhere and you
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: know already, oh there's a moment coming, something is happening here.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: This person is crossing the walk, and the here this
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: is happening. You see it happening before it happens, and
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: then you snap.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: And I see that in your images. You do such
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: a wonderful job of capturing kind of the joy and
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: the culture that you're experiencing and the people. And I
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: think that's such an important part because you're capturing a
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: moment in history. And if you go back to that
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: same place ten years later, which I'm sure you've done,
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: You've probably come back to a place ten years later
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: and it's so different.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: Yep. Yeah, and you don't know why, but yeah, you
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: go back to places and then they are different. The
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: feeling is different, the people you meet is different, the
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: vibe is different.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: And when you first did that trip crossed Asia, what
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: was your route that you took.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: We did not have any clue and we just went
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: to the second hand bookstore and we got a map
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: of Europe. It was okay, this is the way to Asia.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: So we just drove from Germany to Turkey and then Iran.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: So Greece, Turkey, Iran, and then there's hardly any deviation possible.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: From Iran. You just entered into Pakistan and from Pakistan.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: The only way out is to India, and then it
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: got more difficult because of Myanmar being not possible because
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: of the military. We learned that people drove into Bangladesh
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: and shipped from there into a container to Thailand or mea, Malaysia.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: And we just went to the border of Bangladesh and
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: I remember we needed to get the visa meeting the
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: console and he said, welcome to my office here, you
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: have teas, sit down. What's your idea? Have you any
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: clue what my country is about? And we haven't because
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: if you ask people even now about Bangladesh, people start
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: talking about floodings, devastations every year. So that's what we
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: had in our minds. And so he asked us, how
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: long do you want a visa for. I said a
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: week or two. We just want to get to the
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: port and ship none of that. He said, I'll give
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: you a month. Boom, enjoy my country and we did.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: We met such a wonderful people in that country, and yeah,
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: amazing and that Bladesh the history, the architectural history, and
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: also knew so tasks being rebuilt by local carpenters and
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: local stone masons, and yeah, Buddhist history they're also ancient monasteries.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: It's amazing food. Yeah. I remember eating with local people
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: and then after the plate was you learn eating with
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: your hands in India, but in Bangladesh it is taken
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: to another level. Your plate is finished, but you think
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: it's finished, and then the people tap you on the
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: shoulder says that you're not emptying your plate. What do
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: you mean it's empty. So all the gravy and the
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: juice and what's left, but there's no more rice to
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: soak it all up. And then they'll show you what
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: to do. They just lay their hand flat in the
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: dish and lick their fingers really and they say, all
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: the vitamins and everything, the good stuff is on the
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: bottom of the place, so you have to and then
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: it takes sometimes, but I got the hang of it. Oh.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: I love. I love that it's and every country has
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: a slightly different culinary experience. You just never you never
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: know what you're gonna get. You never know what you're
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: gonna get.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: It's always a surprise, which I love.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: I love, and sometimes it's a good surprise, and sometimes
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: it's not as good of a surprise.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: Sometimes you get blistered in your mouth because of Karen.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: She cannot smell by birth, and I have always been
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: in that part of the trip her. How you say,
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: Queen's pretaste because if it's too hot, she cannot eat
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: it and she'll get blistered in her mouth. And she
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: had that a few times. So I pretaste everything. And
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: then people look strange at me. So what are you doing?
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: I said, I'm pretasting for her, and then I have
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: to explain and people laugh.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Oh, they understand a little bit better. Yeah. So you
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: ship from Bangladesh in the wet country.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: Into Singapore, and we didn't know if the car would
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: fit into a container or not. We just drove to
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: port and somebody put a container there. I backed it
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: up rear to the container and we saw that it
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: was hopeless. So we took the roof then off, and
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: all the boxes and then still we got to say
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: ten centimeters or five inches too tall, and then with
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: all the air. Yeah, first made sure it was lined
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: up with the container. Yeah, so that we didn't have
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: to steer anymore, and then it just went in. It's great,
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: a little bit of the but yeah, it went in,
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: so that I was a surprise to everybody. Yeah, it
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: was exciting.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: Oh, I'm sure sure, and then and then what port
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: did you go into after that?
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: So Singapore. I have a cousin living in Singapore, so
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: he picked us up from the airport, and you hear
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: all these stories. Singapore won't allow any caravaning or whatever
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: in there, and we just silenced our Oh first, what
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: do you do when shipping You go to the office
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: of the shipping liner and you get an estimate of
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: the time of arrival. And we had ample of time
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: and I wanted to visit the office and my cousin said,
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: there's phones here. Singapore works with phones. So I phoned
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: the company and to my surprise, the other side said
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: that the ship already landed and your containers waiting on
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: the dogs. I said, no, how can this be? So
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: we made our way over to the office there, paid
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: some stuff and then we had to find a broker,
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: a customs broker with a inbound warehouse, and everything went
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: so smooth, amazing. It was. Yeah, it was very nice,
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: and we just drove on the streets there without having
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: a but I'm not sure what. There's tall badges and
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: tall boxes that you had to install, and we had
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: no trouble whatsoever. And from there, we just rolled into Malaysias. Yeah.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: Also a great country, great people, great food.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: And how many years did you spend? That's one of
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: the things that I loved about your travels is slow travel.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: You guys would spend a year or more in a
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: country sometimes, So how long did you.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: Spend one year in India? Eleven months? And then when
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: we finally got to the Southeast Asia part, so that's
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: Bangladesh and Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Vietnam, Malisia, Singapore, we noticed
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: that it was very difficult to get longer periods of
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: time to spend in those countries. It's a one month
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: visa policy which you can't extend. You have to go
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: to the capital city apply for a visa for the
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: next country and which cost money. You have to plan
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: and we're not We just want to roll up to
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: the border, across it and get a stamp. That's the
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: ideal situation. And that is what happened to us in
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: South America. So three and a half years now three
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: years in South East Southeast Asia learned us that because
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: after that there's only ocean, and then where do we
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: go ahead next? We heard a lot of people go
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: to Australia go to Africa. But when we learned that
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: Africa was more of the same as in South East Asia,
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: where you have only one month of visa, you'd have
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: to apply for that and cross a quick cross through
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Africa's easily twenty countries times fifty dollars visa times two
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: and all the hassle of visiting all those capitals was
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: that we want to be free, we want not to
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: be locked into a something like that. And then we
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: learned from somebody that South America is like that. You
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: just roll up to the border, get a stamp, stay
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: welcome to my country, stay three months, six months, whatever,
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: and if it's not enough time, you just hop across
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: the same border or another one and come back the
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: next day and get another three month. Wow. So that's
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: we planned maybe four months and head to Alaska. But
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: in the end we stayed nine years in South America
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: because you look, learn the language, you converse with two
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: people deeper, you got a deeper understanding of the countries
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: and yeah, fantas you've been there, so yeah, it's.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: Fantastic, it is fantastic. And that was actually the first
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: time that Karen, you and I got to meet in person.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: We were in bogataf I remember correctly in Columbia, and
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: I can't remember the way it was with me, but
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: I can't remember if we had finished our trip or
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: if we were about to start our trip on the motorcycles.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: But it was so nice that we had breakfast together
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: and we got to spend time together in person, which
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: despite how long we had known each other and such
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: admiration that I have for the two of you, it
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: was nice to finally meet and a special thanks to Warner,
• 20:48
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• 20:55
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• 21:58
  Speaker 1: used INEOS or sprinter, or ten percent off parts and
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: service up to five hundred bucks. Just tell them you
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: heard about it on the Overland Journal podcast. Thanks again,
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: Tony and the Warner team for your support of this
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: week's podcast.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: In hindsight, I slapped myself across the face that we
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: did not bring the land Cruiser but because it wasn't
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Bogota but on Acrosstown and it was very difficult driving
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: day in traffic, and we just made it with public
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: transferl over a taxi or whatever. And I said, in hindsight,
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: I said, I would have loved to show you guys the.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: It was just so nice. But it was so nice
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: to spend time together. And I love that photo. You
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: sent it to me just recently in the email exchange,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: and I just love that photo. You could see all
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: of our smiles. We were having such a good time
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: spending time together. It was spending time together. And I
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: think when I when I look at your journeys, I
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: think one of the things that really stands out. There's
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: a couple things that really stand out about Karen and you.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: First of all is that you do go very deep.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: You slow travel, You spend a lot of time in
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: the countries. You don't ever get too obsessed about the
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: gear or the vehicle. You have a good land cruiser.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: You've had to repair it and you've replaced a lot
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: of things on it through the years, but you found
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: a way to keep that vehicle going. But maybe give
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: some people some insights into what you've learned by not
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: getting so caught up in the gear and really focusing
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: on traveling slow. What are some of the How has
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: that changed Karen and you in some ways?
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: I think that most people I don't want to go
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: bad w in You never know what you will need
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: if you had no if you have no experience. We
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: in Europe, or in my family, we are used to
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: camping when we are kids. You go across the border.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: We live in a very small country, you speak the
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: four languages from real youth, and you adapt and if
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: you need something, you knock on the door, or the
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: next door neighbor has a hammer. You make it work.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: You are never ever prepared for everything. It's impossible. So
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: the same with traveling in a vehicle, or on a
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: motorcycle or in a bicycle. On a bicycle, we learn
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: as kids to if you have flat tire, to fix it.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: Your dad will take you. Take off the tire and
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: put it in water and find the hole and waste
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: it and blew it. That's how you learn. And so
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: while traveling, also with the vehicle, you get so many
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: advice from people. Oh you need this, Oh you're going
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: that way. Oh, all my friends came to me. Oh, coon, guys,
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: you are going far away trip with if your water
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: pump bricks, you need a spare water pump. And then
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: the other com Oh you need the alternator, Oh you
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: need this. So I told Karen, shit, my friends tell
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: me I need to bring all that stuff. And she
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: became very upset and said, coon, you told me this
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: car will never fall to pieces and if things break,
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: we can fix it in every corner. So we're not
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: bringing all those spare parts because one is because of
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: fourteen and then we can have a trailerne So we
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: left without any spare parts. And then later we learned, okay,
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: some very small lightweight seals from the driving shofts, and
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: that is very handy to have because that's not easy
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: to find. And if you have one set of bearings
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: that can fit everywhere, that you learn, but you are
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: never prepared. You only learn while doing. And the same
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: thing people tell you you need a winch on the front.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: There was a winch on the car when we bought it,
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: so we left it in place. It never worked, but
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: we made it. We made if we fixed it.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: In the end, you find that I would never that
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: you use the winch much.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: Not much, And if I'm honest, if we would start
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: all over, I would not have spend money to get
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: a winch.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: And you guys want some really rough roads just for
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: the for the listener to have perspective. So Kun just said,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: you don't need a winch. But I have seen the
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: roads that you travel on. You guys do not travel
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: on the main routes. You travel very remote and for
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: you to say that that's quite telling.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: I remember one place it was the Lost Hote Mint
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: trail in so this is border area Lau in Vietnam.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: It's on nobody's map. It's not on a map. And
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: we just heard people and you know the stories that
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: the Vietnamese used these louts and jungle tracks to transport
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: the military stuff. And we wanted to see what was
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: left off that. And we when we were closer and closer,
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: we heard people talk about remnants and the shells lying
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: around in the jungle, and I asked them, can we
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: drive there? Oh? And we found some trails and that
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: led to a small village and we went to the
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: village's headmaster and he pointed us just had some rough
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: names of small towns or villages. And I asked them
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: whereas this and they've just pointed directions, and I pointed
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: the languags in that direction, shift in first gear, and
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: then the track got narrow and narrow, and then people
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: started coming in front of the car and said, no,
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: you can't go. Yeah, this is for motorcycle only or scooters.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: And I said, if that's scooters, we can do that
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: as well. And I remember looking to my left or
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: right and I see Karen with wide open eyes and
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: she said what are you doing? I said, no, turning
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: back now and went over the hill and I looked
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: in the rear view and the only thing I see
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: is a bunch of boys from the village, which shovels,
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: you know what is smart? Yeah, they want to make
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: it back, but we did not need them. It took
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: us five days to get across that piece. A lot
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: of stones and rocks we had to because we didn't
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: have any plates, max tracks or whatever. That would have
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: been helpful, yeah, for sure, But it also went with rocks.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: And just some human effort. Yeah, some human effort. Yeah yeah.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: And I don't think that the wings would have helped
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: that because no trees in and around maxag would have helped.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: But the lankers say, is it's attractor and it just
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: goes Yeah?
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I love love that about your trips, is that
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: the vehicle looks it has its own personality, but it's
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: not heavily modified. It's very simple. And the places that
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: you've taken it, how many countries total did you go through?
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: I have no idea fifty plus. I really don't have
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: a clue. And to be honest, a lot of people
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: ask that, and I said, first that's not important. There's
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: no boxes to take how many countries or how many
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: it's we measure. I remember we met a Canadian he's
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: a friend of ours now, and that he works at
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: a carpenter as a carpenter, and every winter there's hardly
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: any jobs for him. So winter he takes his backpack
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: and he starts traveling the world in warmer climates, and
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: he brings with him a small, an eligant bottle full
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: of maple syrup, and that when he comes back, he
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: measures the amount of maple syrup still in the bottle,
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: and that means to him how many friends and nice
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: people he met, because he shares his maple syrup on
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: the pancakes and the stuff that too. I remember that,
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: and so every year we still have email contact, I
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: said in January, and I asked him, made how much
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: maple syrup you have left? Now? Yeah? And with us
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: it's the same.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: Now you've been You've been a really important reminder to
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: me to check fewer boxes. I know in my own
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: travels I've always been, you know, maybe it's just an
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: American thing. I'm always striving to get to something new,
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: and probably to check more boxes than I should have.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: So you've always taran and you've always been a really
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: important reminder. Maybe let some of that go and go
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: a little deeper and spend a little more time changing yourself,
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: learning and growing as a person.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: Yep. Yeah, it's your approach, your how you respond to
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: your environment, even if the environment is hostile, but it's not.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: It's never it could be, but we don't want it
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: to be. The outside world reflects on you and the
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: way you. I remember that was we had such a
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: great time in Pakistan. Are crossing nine months of Pakistan
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: and then in the north of India we met a
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: young couple, Swiss couple and that they were so happy
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: to see us in to get talking. And so the
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: first thing I said, how did you like Pakistan? Oh?
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: They said, dangerous country and all these people with long
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: beards and costic coffs. And I said, huh did you
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: not drink tea? And then they do? We didn't stop.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: I said, how can that be? And then I looked
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: at that car and was a slightly more modern land
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: drove I think, but they had a I asked them
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: do you guys have air conditioning? And he said they
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: said yes, Oh okay, So you drive with your windows
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: roll up. They said, yeah, okay, so I think that
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: if you change that, open your windows, stick your arm
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: outside and slow down, look outside, wave to the people.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: And then that same guy with the classic of whatever,
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: just motions you over to have some tea and you
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: sit there and you have a marvelous time. So it's
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: your pro how you look to the world, they look
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: also to you. I think. I'm not sure if that's true,
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: but that's our approach. Stop talk and if you have
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: a questions or if you have a problem or you
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: need help, people can't see that you need help. You
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: just you have to open your mouth and ask where
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: you need help.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, I've always I've always admired your guys' perspective.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Where do you feel like that process of change started
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: for you? Have you always you have a bit of
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: a zen energy about you. I'm trying to simplify it.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: Of course it's more complex than that, but you both
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: have this a lot of peace, a lot of joy.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: You seem very happy. There's a lot of kind of
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: zen in the way that you live your life. What
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: was the process that you went through to get to
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: that or is that always how you felt.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: I think that I have always been a person that
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: knows I know where my goal is, and I want
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: to get to the goal no matter what. And I
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: know from experience that you make mistakes and then your
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: goal gets further away from you. So you adapt, you
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: make changes, and so I remember it was in Iran
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: we had I stepped on to the windshield viper when
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: getting off the roof and some very small plasticly thing
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: broke inside the window wiper connections, very small thing. And
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: driving in Iran, we've seen a few land cruises there
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: that work in the oil industry. And we meet a
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: local young man and I asked them if he can
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: point me if he has an idea how to solve
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: this little plastic key problem. And he he speaks a
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: little bit of English, and he brings us to a
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: workshop and he translates to the mechanic what the problem is,
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: and then the mechanics says, oh, I think I have
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: something lying around here. Come back after lunch and we'll
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: fix it. So the guy that we spoke to that
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: translates and helps us. He takes us to his house
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: because in the meantime he has contacted his mother and
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: we are invited for lunch. After lunch, we get back
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: and the mechanic says, I'm sorry, guys, I couldn't find anything.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: And at the same time, a land cruiser for the
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: series stops across the street and the driver gets out
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: and he comes to the mechanic and asks what the
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: foreigners are doing there, and the mechanic explains that we
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: have a small problem with the Plaski part of the
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: window wiper, and we don't understand what they are saying,
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: but we see what is happening that The driver directs
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: the mechanic to his car, and the mechanics starts dismantling
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: his window wiper and gets the plasky part from his
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: car and install it into our car and said, oh,
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: what's happening here? And our translator is there and he said,
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: don't worry. So I'm trying to compensate the driver somehow,
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: so I reach into my pocket and he sees what's
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: happening and he said, no, none of that. You are
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: a visit to our country and like that. So the
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: goal for me at that point is to get the
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: window wiper fixed. And I don't know how to do it,
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: but yeah, sometimes you just have to let faith run
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: its course and see what's happening. And sometimes you don't
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: have to do anything now.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you have to believe. I've heard that about
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: the people of Iran everyone that's ever been there that
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: I've talked to, politics and the government aside, everything that
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: I've heard is that the people of Iran are some
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: of the kindest, most genuinely hospitable people that some travelers
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: have ever met going around the world.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: And they learned us the people, that the people and
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: the government are not the same. We as we are
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: growing up in our country, we identify or we believe
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: that the government represents us, and that we've seen some
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: strange things in the country, the yearly protests that are
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: televised all over the world, where they burned the American
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: flag and they burned the Israeli flag, and we locked
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: ourselves up in a small hostel because we were also
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: stuck with a stomach bug, and somebody came to the
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: door and said, better not go out, We'll have food here.
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: And we saw people marching, young kids with guns and
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: burning the flags. And then later in the evening things
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: died down, and I said to Kern, I need to
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: get some food for tomorrow morning or whatever. So I'm
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: going out. And I roamed the streets, bonfires left and right,
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: and happy people, nothing hostile. And I saw a bunch
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: of people and the young guys that came to me
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: and hey, brother, how are you doing? They said in English?
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: Where are you from? They asked me. And I don't
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: know what happened or what overcome to me, but I've
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: always been some I want to arouse something. So I
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: said I'm American and they are welcome, brother, and they
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: hugged me and whatever. And then I said, you have
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: to have some explaining to do because what I saw
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: today doesn't correspond with what you say now. And he said,
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: we love Americans. We have a lot of cousins, uncles,
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: whatever living in America. We don't like the government, but
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: the Americans. So that's what they said. Government and people
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: are not the same. He said the same in my country.
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: Government has rules here that we don't like. Government and
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: people are not the same. So that that was an
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: eye opener.
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: That what an incredible lesson. And as a special thanks
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: to you listeners, The Overland Journal podcast is made possible
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: because of listeners like yourself and because of the subscribers
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: to the Overland Journal magazine. So if you go onto
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: Overland Journal dot com and you subscribe to the print magazine,
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: you can use the code Overland podcast at checkout for
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: twenty percent off. Thanks again for your support. You're such
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: an important member of this community, and I know that
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: you're going through some health challenges at the moment. Are
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: you okay sharing that with us?
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah. So last winter we had to take the
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: gearbox of the Land cruise apart because it was stuck
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: in third for a long time. And we were in
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: the northeast of Turkey, and I knew this was coming,
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: so I had some parts collected over time, and the
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: Karen said, I'll spend Christmas with my family, so you
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: enjoy your work in the workshop. So as snowing outside
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: and I met other travelers and they asked me what
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: I was going to do for the winter. I have
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: no idea. My first goal is to fix the gearbox.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: What are you doing and he said, we are going
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: to Cypress. I said, Cypress, that's an island right in
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: the Mediterranean. Yeah. You drive to the south of Turkey
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: and there's a fairy boat. Within ten hours you're on
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: the tropical but on the Mediterranean island. Said okay. So
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: I looked in it and I sent Karen a message,
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: not fly back to here, but fly back to Cyprus.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: So we were on Cyprus. She flew that I picked
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: up from the airport. We had a lovely time together.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: Then a friend of hers visited us and we were
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: driving a small island and I am behaving strangely, Karen said. Later,
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: I started driving more and more to the left side
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: of the road. Both in Cypress, former British colony. We
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: driving on the left side of the road anyway, but
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: I started picking the pavement with the left wheel and
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: I don't know what was happening. I felt that something
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: was wrong, and Karen said, stop the car. I'm sitting
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: next to you for the last twenty plus years and
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: I never felt unsafe, but now I'm concerned. Please let
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: me drive, so I said sure. So I scoot over
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: and she drives, and then within the next five minutes,
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: I have an epileptic seizure and I fall away. She
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: grabs my chin and my eyes are both white. She
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: drives me to the hospital and I have some quick
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: tests done and the scan and the dog says, so
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: this isn't looking right. We have to do an MRI.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: So I'm the next thing I know, I'm in an
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: MRI and I see another dog and he said the
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: please sit down because and he presents me with an
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: image on a machine. There's a golf ball sized tumor
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: in my brain. He says, this is not good. This
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: is not what we want. We don't know what it is.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: If it is malignlant or I don't know the English terms.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: But if it's good or bad, we could do an
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: puncture and see. But it doesn't matter if it's good
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: or bad. It has to go. It is pressing in
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: certain parts of your brain. It just has to go.
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: We have to operate. And I look the dog in
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: the eye and I said, have you done this before? Yeah,
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: I said, we have done this before. I said, good.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: When can we do this? He said tomorrow we'll do
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: another MRI and then the next thing we'll operate. I said, good,
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: let's go. And then at that moment I didn't fully
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: realize what was happening and what was going on. Karen
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: and her good friend they were crying and standing there
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: and they fully knew what was going on. But I
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: was operated one year ago, that is July first, twenty
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: four and I wake up and I looked the dog
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: in the eye and said, that dar kahama doing He said,
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: you're talking, so you're doing great. The operation went good.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: We are discharging you from intentive. You are going to
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: General Ward. I said, great. Is my wife going to
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: be there? Yeah? I just what stapped her? He said
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: she is there. I said great, because today's her birthday.
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: And they rolled me through the hospital, me singing loudly
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: happy birthday. And Karen is entering the hospital and everybody
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: congratulating her and she doesn't know what's happening, and so
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: she has yeah yoursment is singing everything like that. Anyway,
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: this is one year ago, and I'm still dealing with
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: the after effects because the tumor is back. They could
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: operate and take out their golf ball sized tumor, but
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: there was still some remnants there and it's weaving through.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: The brain is pressing and causing what's the right English
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: word is calling is causing dysfunction to my left side.
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: So I'm having trouble. Not power is still there, but
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: the neuro so the control from the brain is not
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: fully So I'm having trouble placing my fingers and when
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: I'm walking to put my feet where I want. The
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: first time I told the dog, I said, I know
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: that I'm going to get radiation, and I know I'm
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: going to get chemotherapy probably, and also know that this
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: will bring a lot of waste into my body and
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: that needs to go. So I need to keep moving
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: and get all that stuff out of my body. The
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: only thing I know how is by running. So I
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: told him I'm going to run a marathon. And he
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: looks at Karen. What's he saying? And Karen looks at
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: him and says, let him talk. But last year I
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: ran the half marathon of Amsterdam. I ran the have
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: Marathon here in my own city and April thirteenth, that
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: was just over a month ago, I ran a full
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: marathon in here. Yeah, and look at me. Now I
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: have to be with a crutch. Running is not feasible anymore.
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: Now walking is difficult. I am very happy that I
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: have a tricycle at my hand from a friend. I
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: could borrow a tricycle, so I'm mobile. I don't need
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: I have good friends and family around me, so I
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: just need to give a shout and people drive me
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: all over the country or whatever. But I walk outside
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: the door, I step on the tricycle. I cycle to
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: my mother, my father, my sister lives nearby. I have
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: aunts and uncles nearby, go for coffee and lunch, and
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: I'm very independent. I go to hospital on the bicycle
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: and I love that. I do what is possible, and
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: I don't just sit and cry and more or more
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: and over what is lost. I do what is possible.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: And because my yeah, I think my passion is trill running.
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: So that's running in the forests and I've done a
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: few ultra marathons in Philippines, in Taiwan. I love that really,
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: but in my condition now, it's too dangerous. I learned
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: the hard way with friends. They took me for a
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: run through the forest, ended up with my face full
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: in the whatever. So I said, Okay, this is not
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: possible anymore. But what is possible is road running. I
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: don't like it, but that is what is possible. So
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: up to a month ago, yeah, so that's my condition.
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: And when I go to the hospital, I asked the doctors,
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: I said, what can you do for me? I said,
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: this is incurable, And I said what you're just leaving
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: me to die in the gutter here and not with
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: those words. But they can't do anything, so I'm making
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: the best of it.
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, As a community, we're all here for you,
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: and we're so grateful for all of the inspiration that
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: you have given us. And what advice would you give
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: to others, maybe to someone just starting their first journey
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: like you did twenty something years ago, Now that you're
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: looking back through the lens of having seen the world
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: and now you're dealing with what is a serious health condition,
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: what advice would you give, maybe to your younger self
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: or to someone else, What advice would you give.
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: Taken every day that you can and make it work,
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: enjoy what you have and not always yearn for more
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: or better, or go and explore. Exploring doesn't mean far.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: Oh wait, it can be around your own city or state.
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: You can take your bicycle or your backpack. It doesn't
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: have to be comparable, you don't have to measure against others,
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: and that this is not a competition. You go out
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: into your own city. And I remember also one of
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: my sorry, my first photography teachers, he gave us a
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: role of film thirty six clicks and he said, now
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: go into the environment that you know best in your
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: house means he meant the bathroom, So the toilet. You
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: go there and you click thirty six images. So that
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: makes you observe more and deeper because you know that
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: place by heart. But when you go there and you
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: really observe to take interesting pictures and search for angles
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: and more than you'd ever thought you would see. Try it.
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: Go in the bathroom and look around. And that's the
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: same with exploring. You have six people that go into
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: the same fair or town or museum and afterwards you
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: ask what you've seen, you get different answers. So it's
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: about you and the state of being that you are in.
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: And yeah, so just go and explore. Talk to people,
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: ask what they think of their town or village or
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: what you should see or visitor. We go to the
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: town hall of small villages and ask them what it's
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: worth seeing, what should we see as a visitor. If
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: they don't have any plan and things, and you're amazed
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: what they come up with, Yes, and make it work
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: with the things you have.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you guys have done that. It's been incredible
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: to watch how you guys have adapted and You never
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: chased the shiny objects. You always chased experiences together. What
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: are What's something that you're most proud of Karen when
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: you think about her.
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: The sheer amount of notes that she takes. And we
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: are so grateful for the notes because, as you haven't known,
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: we are now publishing books, and those stories can only
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: be written when you have enough notes. Of course there
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: are all though, so the magazine articles that we combined
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: into the books, but without those notes, stories are just
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: vague memories. And it's also funny that we sometimes have
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: discrepancies where we tell stories and then nudge each other
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: and said, that's not true. That wasn't a red car
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: or a blue car. She comes up with notes and
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: she said it was a yellow car or whatever.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So this.
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: Is also I want to give people. We are now
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: in an age where digital photography is so common. Everybody
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: has a smartphone, so taking pictures is second to none
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: for a lot of people because they share them but
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: also take notes. You have a coffee with somebody, ask
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: the guy's name, and I see that doing I do
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: it myself. I take a picture of a setting where
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: we are drinking coffee, and then I entered the guy's
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: name under the picture. Sure, then you have to date
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: the time and then the name, So taking notes is
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: very important.
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: That's great advice. And it's always been so sweet to
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: me to see your relationship with Karen and how you
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: guys have traveled so well together. What's some advice that
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: you can give to a couple that's getting ready to
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: travel maybe twenty years in the same car together.
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Karen wrote a nice article on that. So many
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: years without killing each other. I think that we left
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: the Netherlands without having lived in a house together. So
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: we had to learn how to live in a close
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: environment together. And I think the most important lesson we
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: learned is that, yes, of course you have fights in
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: a relationship. That's normal. But what is not normal in
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: our case if you have a regular life, you have escapes.
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: You go to work the next day, or you go
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: in the evening, have sports, You meet with your friends
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: and you can gossip, or you can talk it over
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: and talk it out of your system, and then you
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: meet again and say, ah, yesterday was bad, sorry or whatever.
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: But if you don't have the escapes, you have to
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: create space, time and room for each other, and that
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: is what we have learned to do that was one
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: is create space. So Karen would say I'm going for
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: a walk, and then she would go for an hour walk.
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: Or if I see that she is reading a book
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: in the corner, I know that she doesn't want to
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: be disturbed. And the same thing that when I'm thinkering
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: with the land cruiser, she knows that. So you create
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: your own environment. And you can't do everything together all
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: the time. So cooking or doing dishes is also self time.
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: You can't do it all the time together, and that's
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: that's important to learn. And another thing that we learned
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: is that if you have fights, stop the car, talk
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: and get it out of your system. What is on
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: your heart. You can then discuss that or talk about it,
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: and the ELLA knows how you're feeling. It doesn't always
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: solve it directly, but it doesn't give it time to
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: build up and into a big explosive device because you're
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: that's the thing that happen if you let it similar
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: talk about it.
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: That's very good. That's wonderful advice. And a lot of
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: people travel together and we all need to hear that reminder.
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: Give each other some space and make sure that you
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: talk it out your books. Your books are wonderful. Let's
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: talk about your books that you've released. What's the title
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: of the book and how do people find it?
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: So we're talking about English books because we are now
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: working on our fourth Dutch book, which will eventually also
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: find his way into English. But the first English book
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: is forever off track and that you can find it
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: now on Amazon in black and white, meaning text only,
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: no images. That's printing on demand. You can find it
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: on Kindle. But I think that you're missing out on
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: the color images. The color version I think is also available.
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you know this, but our land
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: Cruiser at this moment is hosted at the land Cruiser
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: Heritage Museum in Utah, So if people want to see
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: the vehicle up close and personal and touch it or
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: and see and smell the inside, and it's there how
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: we have traveled in it. There's a bunch of books
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: available in the museum store. If they are sold out
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: for whatever reason, you can still find the color version
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: on our website.
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: And yeah, and how do people You have an Instagram?
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: Your your personal Instagram has a lot of beautiful photography.
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: What's your Instagram accounts?
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: I must say that I'm not active on Instagram as
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: I used to be, so my photo kun as Instagram.
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: I think I changed it to tumor kun or two
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: more runner when I was running, and I think it's now.
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: They can see some of the photos.
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: Land Cruising Dot Adventure.
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, thank you, and please take a look at
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: their books. Your books are wonderful. We look forward to
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: getting an update when you have the English version of
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: the other books available.
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: So I want to say that when we were preparing
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: the car and stuffing it yet another time in a
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: container and bringing it to the States, Karen said, I
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: want to make a color book, a coffee table color
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: book with the highlights of twenty one years of length
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: cruising Adventure. So she asked me, please give me all
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: the highlight images in high risk. So I did that
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: and she then spent two months sorting and combining images
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: into a book and she printed it. And when her
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: mother saw the book, her mother said, I want one
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: as well. So that book is I hope that it
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: is with the car in the museum, but we combined
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: it in the car, and when I saw the book,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: I told Karen, I want to make a color version
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: on Amazon one day. So I'm going to do that
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: this year hopefully. Yeah, it will be a bit more
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: expensive because it will be a hardcover, large format coffee
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: table book, but I think people will love it.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: And we'll make sure it'll let everybody know when that's
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: available on the podcast so that people can find it.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: Is there anything else you'd like to share with our audience,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: Cone before we go?
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: Not sure, Stay passionate, never stop exploring. You do a
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: great work with your outlet, and I am happy to
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: have met you and come in contact with you and
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: the Overland international community.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. You Also, your community has been of great help,
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: and that's how it's supposed right, helping each other.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: I remember I went you guys had a really neat
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: event that you would hold in the Netherlands, and I
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: remember coming to your event and you had prepared a
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: tent for me and you gave me a pillow and
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: I got to spend some time with you guys and
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: your community, and it was like no other event I've
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: ever been to. Everybody there was so incredibly well traveled,
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: and nobody nobody bragged about it. If you asked questions,
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: it was always about the places that they win or
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: the people that they encountered. You guys have created one
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: of the most incredible events I've ever been to.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: It has evolved, it was never created we For Karen,
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: it was very important to be back home once a
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: year to see the family, and so eleven months of
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: travel one month of holiday I call it in the Netherlands.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: And then I like to combine that with visiting people
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: that we had met during the travel. And this grew
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: into a small group of people and we made it
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: into an annual thing, meeting each other at somebody's house
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: making pancakes. And then when more people, more and more
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: people joined. We couldn't you couldn't ask people to invadebody's
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: house with twenty people, so we asked the campsite nearby,
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: can we crash here with vehicles? And yeah, sure. So
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: then people asked if they could bring another friend that
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: also wanted to travel, and had lots of questions as sure,
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: bring people, and this is how the Overland Reunion came
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: to be. And then when you were in a neighborhood
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: and asked to come and said sure, I mean, and
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: I remember you came, and we rushed over to the
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: Catalan or whatever and bought a small tent and at person,
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: and the gist of the meeting is nothing is organized.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: There's no talks, no commercial interest. You don't pay us,
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: You just pay the campsite and you bring your own food.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: We make sure that there is enough barbecues or everybody
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: brings a barbecue, and then as barbecues go, everybody brings
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: too much. So I think that we don't even bring
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: food anymore. So I remember you came and I asked you,
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: I think you want something to drink? What do you
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: want to drink? And you are, oh, yeah, be here,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: and so I just raised my hand. We walked through
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: the campus. Guys, anybody has to be in here for
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: stot and that's and people open physic Yeah, sure, what
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: do you like?
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: And the shame but it's so good.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I like that this community that we call
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: friends now there's no explanation needed. Everybody knows how the
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: dice is roll.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: And it's such a it's such a reflection of Karen
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: and you and your travels. You guys have lived so
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: authentically and you've inspired so many people. Both of you
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: have inspired so many people to get out and see
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: the world. And I'm just so honored that we had
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: the chance to have you on the podcast today, and
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: the whole community is be behind you. We're all rooting
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: for you, and we're all here for you. If there's
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: anything that we can do to support you on this
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: next journey that you're on, please let us know. And
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: thank you again so much Kon for being on the podcast.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I would have loved to
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: be the person. I also said to Greg Miller of
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: the Thank You Heritors Museum that in September there is
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: the crucifest I would have loved to be the in person,
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: but my medical condition is not allowing me to do
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: that right now. Maybe the future will. No, I don't
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: have a glass bowl or a crystal ball, but seeing
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: how I behave not behave how you say that to
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: respond to the chemotherapy, I'm now having a very strong
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: dose and seeing how I respond, I said to Ken,
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: I can handle this. If this stays for another thirty years,
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: I'll be happy to take the pills and do that.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: But we also have to be honest and we have
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: to look beyond that. So we have to plan and
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: my eminent death is part of that. So we are
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: talking about that, and we also want the community, our
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: friends to be part of that. As I said, I
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: want to be cremated, and I'm that I'm not stopping traveling.
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: That I have my ashes being depast spread into the community,
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: and I have people bring me to the Amazon, people
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: bring to me to Siberia. So never stop exploring. And
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: my my grandma said, we have no idea if there
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: is life after death, but what we do know is
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: it must be great because we have never seen anybody
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: coming back from the day. So I'm going to visit
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: my grandma's and to visit my aunts and uncles down
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: on the other side. And I am well prepared. I
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: am not scared. I know how to travel and I
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: know how to travel that side as well.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Thank you for sharing this time with
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: me today, Couln. I so appreciate you and Karen everything
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: that you've done for Overland Journal. It's been such an
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: honor to know you and I look forward to our
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: next conversation.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: Let's do that. Thank you, Scott and until we meet again.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: Absolutely is it here or in person or on the podcast.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: Right that sounds great? Thank you Coan, and we thank
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: you all for listening, and we'll talk to you next time.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, stay passionate, keep exploring, never stop igploring.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah,