Latest / DEEP INSIGHT / The Trump admin keeps ignoring judges' orders. When is it a constitutional crisis

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The Trump admin keeps ignoring judges' orders. When is it a constitutional crisis · DEEP INSIGHT

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: When do we get to say we're in a constitutional crisis?
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: When do we get to say we're in it? Why
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: do people feel like they might have to just wait
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: for history to tell us what this moment is, what
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: we are living through right now in this moment? And
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: the reality of the situation is, I think it's insane
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: that the judge had to admonish the Justice Department folks
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: like that yesterday. But to be very clear, if we
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: were talking about Maria, Tatiana- Jose, Jamal, Kiki, Keisha.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: It wouldn't have been an admonishment.
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  Speaker 1: You get to go about your business. There'll be some consequences.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: There are no consequences for the government ignoring what the
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: courts are saying. So maybe it's a crisis of constitutional enforcement,
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Michael Steele.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I think it is.
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: But we've been in a constitutional crisis since the day
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: Donald Trump decided to crap all over the emoluments clause.
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: And that was the first term. No one raised a
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: concern about that.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: Fine. You don't want to put up a wall between
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: your personal finances and your job as president of the
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  Speaker 3: United States. How about taking an airplane from a foreign government? Again,
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: another potential constitutional crisis. So it's not it's not just
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: the fact that we don't necessarily see these things as
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: they are or maybe even refuse to recognize.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: Them for what they are in the moment.
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: It does boil down to whether or not our court
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: system is prepared to declare that that's what this is,
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: because they sure as hell don't seem to think differently.
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: at least with the lack of urgency on some of
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: these matters, that they need to address these things real
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: time as opposed to, well, OK, I'm going to let
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: you go ahead and tear down the East Wing of
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: the White House while we consider whether or not you
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: have the authority to do that, even though black ladder
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: playing law says you don't.
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: We're blessed on this show to have some of the
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: best lawyers in America come to our table every week.
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: And the constant theme that they talk about is that
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: the guardrails are holding, the judges are ruling against the administration,
• 1:57
  Speaker 4: the legal system is working, albeit slowly. However— I was
• 2:01
  Speaker 4: reminded of a case, Worcester versus Georgia from 1832, if
• 2:05
  Speaker 4: we could put it on the screen right there, with Mr.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: Andrew Jackson against John Marshall.
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: Now, this quote is sometimes attributed to Jackson. It was
• 2:12
  Speaker 4: printed by Horace Greeley, but it says, quote, John Marshall
• 2:14
  Speaker 4: has made his decision. Now let him enforce it. And
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: that is what the Trump White House has done. Essentially
• 2:21
  Speaker 4: said to these courts, OK, you make your decision. Now
• 2:24
  Speaker 4: go enforce it. What army do you have? And that
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: is something that I think that getting to Simone's point
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: about constitutional a constitutional crisis, we have not necessarily reacted
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: to that because at some point it seems like it's
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: going to get to that.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: And that's a very scary thing. It's very scary.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, Fatima, you're a real lawyer. What is going
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: on here? And again, I always like to ask, am
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: I being dramatic?
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: At the table, I was kind of excluded from that
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: real lawyer thing.
• 2:51
  Speaker 5: Thank you.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: I think Michael still has a long life and was
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: a real lawyer at one point. But am I being hyperbolic?
• 2:58
  Speaker 5: So you're right to be worried. And a lot of
• 3:01
  Speaker 5: experts think we're already in a constitutional crisis. The only
• 3:04
  Speaker 5: question is, what are we going to do about it?
• 3:07
  Speaker 5: What does it mean? And what I would offer, maybe
• 3:10
  Speaker 5: that is calming, is that the judges are playing the
• 3:12
  Speaker 5: role they're supposed to play, right? The judges are enforcing
• 3:17
  Speaker 5: and being clear that they have the authority. And if
• 3:21
  Speaker 5: you watch what Judge Reyes in particular is doing, she's
• 3:25
  Speaker 5: laying the groundwork. She's saying, when did you know, right?
• 3:28
  Speaker 5: When did you know you were going to cut down
• 3:29
  Speaker 5: these trees? And are you directly going against the very
• 3:34
  Speaker 5: specific order I gave you? So we should be worried.
• 3:37
  Speaker 5: And what this administration and Trump in particular are doing
• 3:40
  Speaker 5: is they are testing us all again and again. They're
• 3:43
  Speaker 5: testing both whether we care that there's a constitutional crisis
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  Speaker 5: and also whether we have the endurance. Can we keep
• 3:50
  Speaker 5: coming back again and again and having these exhausting times?
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: Well, my question then is, Jim, is, OK, I hear
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  Speaker 3: what the lawyers say, but then I look objectively at
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: what's playing out, how your colleagues across the spectrum from
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: the smallest to the largest enterprise in media tell that story.
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: And the way the story comes across to the American
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: people is, all right, Donald Trump was ordered. to not
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: have the plane with immigrants on it take off.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: That's right. And Donald Trump said, OK. He doesn't care.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: He doesn't care. Right.
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  Speaker 3: So help us reconcile, because these are the two realities
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: that the American people have to confront. What the lawyers
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: and the judges are in the courts doing and battling.
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: But then the stories that are actually being shown to
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: us and told us reflect something very different.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on TV.
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  Speaker 6: Sort of like the White House press secretary. Lawyer from China,
• 5:00
  Speaker 6: she says.
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: China.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: China. No, let me tell you something.
• 5:05
  Speaker 6: I think Donald Trump has cracked the code on how
• 5:09
  Speaker 6: to exploit the vulnerabilities that we have in our constitutional
• 5:11
  Speaker 6: form of government. And one of those vulnerabilities is I
• 5:15
  Speaker 6: guess the president of the United States can tell a
• 5:18
  Speaker 6: federal judge to go take a hike. And at some point,
• 5:21
  Speaker 6: there has to be accountability. At some point, there has
• 5:23
  Speaker 6: to be some measure of accountability. And, you know, I've
• 5:26
  Speaker 6: been talking about this on my show. I've been talking
• 5:27
  Speaker 6: about Election Day as rejection day in this country. This
• 5:31
  Speaker 6: is when the American people are going to slam the
• 5:33
  Speaker 6: brakes on this unconstitutional, un-American enforcement of our immigration laws
• 5:38
  Speaker 6: via ICE and these atrocities that we're seeing on the streets.
• 5:42
  Speaker 6: taking away people's press passes over at.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: The White House. That's not that's not the American way.
• 5:46
  Speaker 6: But January 3rd, when a new Congress is sworn in, Michael,
• 5:50
  Speaker 6: that needs to be accountability day. And you talk you
• 5:52
  Speaker 6: can talk about gas prices. You can talk about putting
• 5:54
  Speaker 6: food on the table. You can talk about all these
• 5:56
  Speaker 6: things until the cows come home. What people want in
• 5:58
  Speaker 6: this country, when I hear from people right now, they
• 6:01
  Speaker 6: want to see accountability and they want to see it
• 6:04
  Speaker 6: come down hard on a lot of these clowns who
• 6:07
  Speaker 6: have been just as you've been saying. you know, telling
• 6:12
  Speaker 6: the constitution to take a hike. And I, that, that
• 6:14
  Speaker 6: to me is where the rubber is going to meet
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  Speaker 6: the road for the democratic party.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: If they come in and say, well, you know.
• 6:20
  Speaker 6: The focus groups say this and the pollsters say that
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  Speaker 6: we better, you know, work on this bill over here
• 6:25
  Speaker 6: and that bill over there. I don't think that's where
• 6:26
  Speaker 6: the American people are right now. Their people are furious
• 6:29
  Speaker 6: and they want change.
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: Someone else who was furious was the judge in this
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: tree case. We mentioned her earlier, Judge Reyes. And I
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: think what's interesting about this is what we said in
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: the intro is very true.
• 6:41
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: It's trees.
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: And this is what this administration does. They do something
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: that you don't think that people are going to get
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: riled up about too much. Now it's some trees. I'm
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: just trying to put gas in my tank, food on
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  Speaker 4: my table.
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  Speaker 2: A few trees. The president's gone for us. Who cares?
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: But the judge was very upset.
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  Speaker 4: She said that things along the lines of, You did
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: your absolute worst to the government. She was beyond disappointed.
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: Yes.
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  Speaker 4: For a judge and witnesses inside of the courtroom said
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: at one point she was screaming her anger.
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  Speaker 2: Judges aren't usually like that.
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: Talk a little bit about that, Judge Reyes, essentially calling
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: out the government saying, I did my best to give
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: you the benefit of.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: The doubt and you shun me and you embarrassed me. Yeah.
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  Speaker 5: I mean, well, so, first of all, can I just say,
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  Speaker 5: people in Michigan should care about trees in D.C.
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  Speaker 2: We love trees. We love trees.
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  Speaker 5: It's a great part, but if you're in Michigan wondering,
• 7:31
  Speaker 5: should you care about the trees being cut down in D.C.,
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  Speaker 5: it's absolutely this conversation.
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  Speaker 2: And you know Michigan has the right size trees.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Listen, I remember that.
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  Speaker 4: But they should care because the question on the table
• 7:43
  Speaker 4: is whether or not this administration is bound.
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  Speaker 2: By any laws at all. Yes.
• 7:57
  Speaker 5: Every time they move forward and cut down the trees
• 8:00
  Speaker 5: before anyone can do anything about it or fire all
• 8:03
  Speaker 5: the workers or shut down an agency, it is testing,
• 8:07
  Speaker 5: will there be any consequences? And this judge's anger, in part,
• 8:12
  Speaker 5: I believe, is about the fact that she has to
• 8:14
  Speaker 5: now come with some consequences. And those consequences aren't necessarily
• 8:19
  Speaker 5: for Donald Trump in particular. It's the people who have
• 8:23
  Speaker 5: appeared before her court. It's the people who she is
• 8:27
  Speaker 5: suggesting misrepresented. That's lying.
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: That's like a big, that's a big word.
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  Speaker 5: If I could just say one more thing, though, I
• 8:35
  Speaker 5: think we need to start tracking the gender of these
• 8:40
  Speaker 5: judges that he is really easily willing to flout. It's
• 8:45
  Speaker 5: not an accident, I think, that you have these women
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  Speaker 5: who are sitting in these seats who have this authority,
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  Speaker 5: and he's suggesting that we don't have to follow their authority.
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  Speaker 5: That's consistent in the through line that we're seeing in
• 8:58
  Speaker 5: other places.
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  Speaker 2: Can I be slightly critical of the courts, though? Because,
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, look at the.
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  Speaker 6: With all due respect, I mean, when you look at
• 9:06
  Speaker 6: the Kennedy Center and there's still a tarp up on
• 9:08
  Speaker 6: the Kennedy Center because they took his name down and
• 9:11
  Speaker 6: because he got so butthurt over that, they had to
• 9:13
  Speaker 6: put up a tarp. And a federal judge can't say...
• 9:16
  Speaker 6: Take that damn tarp down or somebody's going to jail.
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  Speaker 6: Somebody's going to be in contempt of this court and
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  Speaker 6: you're going to go sit behind bars for a while
• 9:22
  Speaker 6: until that tarp comes down.
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  Speaker 2: Then we'll open up the cell and we'll let you out.
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  Speaker 2: To me, I think the judges have been way too patient.
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  Speaker 1: Why can't what Jim is saying happen? Because I agree
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  Speaker 1: with you.
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  Speaker 2: You know, it could.
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  Speaker 5: I do think sometimes you have judges who think that
• 9:36
  Speaker 5: we are operating in the before times.
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: Yes.
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  Speaker 5: You're dealing with an administration.
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: The world of norms.
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 9:43
  Speaker 5: That's not this time. And so they have to do
• 9:46
  Speaker 5: things that are hard. There may be people who are
• 9:48
  Speaker 5: held in contempt. You may see people referred to bar counsel.
• 9:51
  Speaker 5: You may see things that are considered major escalations happen
• 9:56
  Speaker 5: under this administration and people have to be willing to
• 9:58
  Speaker 5: do it.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: Hey, it's Rachel.
• 10:00
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• 10:01
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• 10:25
  Speaker 2: Thanks.