Latest / UnDocked: The Maritime Transformation Show / Cadet Berths, Industry Incentives, and AI Labour

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Cadet Berths, Industry Incentives, and AI Labour · UnDocked: The Maritime Transformation Show

• Nick Chubb: Go on, explain to us why wearing that. Raal: So I think if it's the same, I it is the same thing I saw. These are workers in a textile factory in India with these headsets doing their normal job because what they're doing is being recorded for the purposes of replacing them essentially with a presumably combination of artificial intelligence and robotics. Nick Chubb: Hello, everyone. Welcome to Andocked. Raoul, I've not seen you it feels like Raal: Yeah, such is my impact. not that long, it's got two days in chrome. ⁓ Nick Chubb: Well, that's true. We did see each other the other day. But I meant before that, because you were away for three weeks, then I was away for a week. now it feels like every time I do see you, ⁓ in ⁓ increasingly looking hotel room. ⁓ exactly it. calling it, hang let me get the ⁓ exact they're calling a hand movement farm and that is exactly right. The idea is these people are recording huge volumes of training data in textile factories to the robots that just take their jobs. ⁓ Raal: Yes. Yeah, the death of a salesman, you're familiar with that book. I feel a bit like that really. Hotel to hotel, yeah. Station to station, what's more. No, I'm in the delightful town of Limassol in Cyprus. But yeah, I've ended up, for reasons I won't into, Bori, I've ended up in two different hotels in three days, which is... Nick Chubb: Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Raal: Yeah, turkeys and Christmas and all that, yeah. Nick Chubb: can't, it's just so unbelievably depressing ⁓ you're someone folding towels or, ⁓ you ⁓ sewing bits of ⁓ fabric Yeah, just unbelievable. So yeah, don't know where that leaves textile workers when those robots ⁓ roll out, but it's bit ⁓ Very nice. Raal: Yes. Yeah, it's pretty tough. booking malfunction on my part led me end up having to, ⁓ meaning I to pack up my stuff and then move to hotel before. But it does add to an air of mystery. Yeah, ⁓ well yeah you know one assumes they even know what's going on. I can't think of what other reason they could tell them why they're doing it, a time and motion study or something I suppose. ⁓ Nick Chubb: And how was your holiday? Raal: ⁓ Brilliant, mean Japan is a destination, you went there this year didn't you as well, I think everyone's going there. Yeah, it's a fantastic place isn't it, it's very mysterious and... Nick Chubb: We did, we went in January. Absolutely loved it. I think they know why they're doing it. Raal: I think they know as well. got that. You could see the look in the eyes. mean, yeah, but you know, there's a whole bunch of this stuff. I think that, you know, just to kind of that's story from outside maritime. let's kind of talk about that global level of memory. It seems to be ⁓ incredible amount of complacency in the political classes of almost any, countries. know there's sort of various talks about really going to build an AI strategy and that sort of stuff. Zen kind of puts your brain in a good vibration, I'd say. I think from a shipping point of I think it's really interesting region because, you know, Nick Chubb: This episode of Undocked is brought to you by IEC Telecom. Connectivity at sea is not just about operations, it is about people. For today's cruise, staying connected to family and life on shore has become an essential part of life at sea. Raal: huge implications for massive displacement of workforce and unemployment and things like that in a very short amount of time and this is going to have a huge amount of impact on the, you know, just forget the human cost of it and the personal tragedies of which there'll be many but there's also like what's going to happen to an exchequer that can't, you know, is not getting any tax revenue from these people and all those kind of things and you know, I really feel like there's they do everything well in Japan, Everything is conducted with degree of excellence. Nick Chubb: Yeah. IEC Telecom's voucher management system makes that possible. It is a flexible, easy to manage solution that gives operators full control over onboard connectivity while ensuring fair and reliable access for crew. It's simple to deploy, transparent to manage, built for real life at sea. Because when crews feel connected, they perform better. To discover how IEC Telecom is supporting crew welfare, just search for IEC Telecom. Yeah. Raal: there's a need to put some serious energy this and to think about how we're actually going to manage it because, you know, if one's got a job, how's anybody going to pay for any of this stuff? I've got for you since we're in the process of sharing these little I picked up something myself, I think you'll like. And because the other week had Rossi on and he was talking about blowing our minds with what's achievable with the Claude Code. Nick Chubb: Cool. Raal: which inspired you to go off and do. Nick Chubb: I've been totally clawed-pilled ⁓ rolled it out across the whole organization. It's so exciting also, to point you making a second ago, utterly terrifying about what you don't need humans for. Raal: Yeah. Yeah. Nick Chubb: I'm not quite ready to share what I've been working on here, probably in time I'll be able to. ⁓ mad. ⁓ Raal: Well, you promised me you'd give me bit of a tutorial, because I'm kind of like watching in awe and thinking, well, how am I actually going to do this? I haven't really got the time to muck about with it. I've just seen three things today that blew my mind, that just plug in again to Claude. And then. Nick Chubb: Very nice. what have you learned over last few weeks? Anything interesting catch eye? Raal: Well, quite a few things actually. yeah, was kind of brutal. reawakening as you kind of, if you take two and a half weeks out, sort of suddenly kind of back in the game with a sort of a big of, you know, clash as you sort of catch up with all the work you're supposed to be doing. And so I kind came back out and very quickly out here in Cyprus the Intertanko Human Element Committee meeting. So I'm here on of OSM Thome who I'm working for, attending that meeting and Nick Chubb: Opus 4.7, which is the latest model, is a level of brain power that ⁓ just ⁓ ⁓ Raal: Yeah. Yeah, colleague showed me this thing for building that kind of connects all of your sorts and notes, you know, yeah, ⁓ Nick Chubb: Is it Obsidian? I've been meaning to try Obsidian. I used to use Rome Research, which I really liked, but the feature set just got a bit limited. We get this is so, this is real inside baseball nerdy stuff now, but like the whole thing about, you know, link thoughts. Raal: office there today. that is fantastic. It's one of the ones that really enjoy. It's a privilege to be part of. ⁓ And it's TANCO, talked about them before. they're one of the effective trade organizations, think, associations out there. A mixture TANCO operator members, but a mixture of very well represented there, and ship managers as well. Nick Chubb: information and knowledge retrieval systems. Obviously being in the research business is ⁓ a personal nerdy area for me. ⁓ yeah, Obsidian's on my list of things to ⁓ ⁓ Raal: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what's really mental, because I had a very superficial look, but this is sort of the ability, you sort of create notes and you collect those notes this sort of semi-programming language, know, bracket, bracket sort of stuff, to be able to say that ⁓ I've this idea ⁓ that just filling you in on here connects mentally to me, to this other idea, which I told you about in another. or you just generate on the fly another note on there. And what sort of happens then is each one of those a node connected and start to see a sort of visualization of that, which is kind of like this sort of this ⁓ is not medium to discuss it on, maybe I'll bring up a screenshot. But fundamentally, I believe that the real benefit of doing this. Nick Chubb: Yeah. Yeah. Raal: connected thoughts and ideas things, actually when it comes to the processing power, because it's not just like, here's everything that you've ever told your AI, all the information you've generated and shared with it, which it then has to troll through and kind of, you know. decide is that connected to that? I think it probably is because language models kind of figure this stuff out, don't they? As best they can. this is actually creating those direct anchor points in there. And what you end up with is this sort of something that starts to look a little scarily like the human brain, because it's sort of like this ⁓ ⁓ with all these nodes. And it kind of looks like a ⁓ it's, it's, yeah. But anyway, look, I'm not in a, I'm not in a position to talk about it, but like in the course of a few days, you get these, but it's always nice to be brought back down to Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah. Raal: and that's the story that I was going to share with you. you have one, I don't know, you like your gadgets, but you've seen these vacuum cleaners, which are like robots ⁓ sort of walk... ⁓ Nick Chubb: Yeah, my friend has one she calls it cinderelli Raal: There you go. they sort of cruise around the room, probably badly hoovering, I'm guessing. They're not as good as them. But they're kind of probably good for general maintenance or whatever, keeping it up. And a very enterprising guy, I think he was Spanish, was playing around with code code. And he thought to himself, well, wouldn't it be fun if I could program using code code to control my vacuum cleaner with a joy pad. Nick Chubb: Yes. Yeah. Raal: And I think it's fair to I think probably one the topics that ⁓ was reported I'm seeing it a perennial problem and a problem that's getting worse is that of providing So, you know, he obviously, he got into Claude, explained what he wanted to do. The Claude code sort of, you know, figured out how to get this done and consequently, yeah, wrote him this program and came up on the console, right, you know, we're done. It's ready for you now. Which one of the 3,000 units would you like to control? And he's like, you're talking about, I've only got one. berths and there was team that were tasked to look at did have done some fantastic work there looking at the different dimensions that are there and of just for a bit of this is sort of as a cadet you you go through your maritime education and training But it turns out they didn't anticipate that anyone would ever try and do this. And consequently, they're all on the same program. And he was able to effectively choose which of the models wanted to control. whilst that be of fun, right, to start sort of, know, messing around with that, real horror implications of come from how do these machines work? Well, they have cameras. Nick Chubb: Ha! Raal: you then have to have the requisite amount of C time essentially validate your COC. And issue there is trying to be able to make happen. And ⁓ it's sort constrained. think the way everything from the that whether there's the available berth on the ship at all, ⁓ somewhere for somebody to stay whether or not that they're an layer of hazard or to be having somebody So he's potentially hacked into all of the cameras. Now, story has a happy ending in so far as this was a very responsible fellow who then got in touch with the manufacturers and explained to them what done so that they could kind of close this loophole pretty quickly and he didn't abuse it or anything like that. But the law, know, unintended consequences and all of that sort of thing, you know, it's really weird. Nick Chubb: Have you heard about- Raal: on board that's not qualified. there are various kinds of things that I won't into now, but the reality of it is that if you've invested in your training, this is the bit that really gets you to be in a position to actually earn your living. And so there a, I don't know what the percentage is, I should have made a note of it, but it's essentially a lot of people that don't get get that, to able to do their work. Is this Nick Chubb: Have you heard about Claude Mythos? Raal: A little bit, a little bit. Nick Chubb: So this is, by the way, ultimate marketing from Anthropic who makes Claude. But they put out a press release saying, we've created something called Claude Mythos. It's so powerful, we think it's too dangerous to release. And now, so obviously, everyone wants it. But they've actually done limited releases. Raal: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, good marketing. Nick Chubb: had assumed this a UK because it's a big protracted in UK that you can't get, where it's very difficult. A of the training companies struggle to get UK cadets onto ships. But I didn't realise it ⁓ a bigger problem than just a training issue. I just thought was because ⁓ UK seafarers are not... Raal: Rapporting on. Nick Chubb: to and because they that Mythos' ability to traditional cyber is so strong that they've had to release it the banks early. So the Bank of England is currently it to do penetration testing. necessarily particularly in demand as much as other nationalities. guess ⁓ context, when cadet on a ship for first time, they are, I'm speaking experience here, ⁓ less than useless. They ⁓ very much, in those of early weeks, as you... to get an understanding of what are all of the patches that they're going to have to make before this goes on to general release. That's how powerful it is as a model. One of the testing engineers for it it into a secure sandbox and then it a task to break of the sandbox environment and then notify him. And then he ⁓ it running ⁓ then went off had his Raal: Wow. Nick Chubb: rightly Ra, they potentially present a much greater safety risk than not having there, potentially create a of drag on operations. really, cadets only start become when they're in the very, very phases of their training and they can properly shadow the officer of the watch and enough kind of take on, apart from some of the... And just while he was sat there eating lunch, he got an email from it saying, yeah, I'm out. ⁓ scary. impact potentially has on shipping, it's hard to tell yet. ⁓ So many things potentially come from this. But the pace of change is faster and faster and faster, to the point that it's very, to keep up. Legal responsibilities can near enough take on the job in those last few weeks before they go up to take their ticket. But obviously without access to that ship and able to go and be that person who's less than useless ⁓ and stupid in a fairly environment, then you never get the experience to be able to do the actual job. So ⁓ it's a critically thing. Raal: Yeah, and to put the necessary guard rails in, that vacuum cleaner thing is just such a good example of that. Because you're not looking at that, you? That's just a trivial little bit of a machine in there. And I think there's been quite a few examples, haven't there, of like where with internet of things and stuff like that where... Nick Chubb: Yeah. and it's a systemic problem for the industry as well because if you don't have enough cadets coming through then ultimately that will feed through to master mariners in know in sort of 10-15 years time. Raal: something because it seems so trivial it's like where's it where's the possible harm in it but you know you can't do much with it but if it's the entry point to being able to kind of then take control of the of another system and all that sort of stuff so there's there's a yeah i mean it's a terrifying terrifying time to be in cyber security i think and looking at all those sorts of aspects for sure Completely, completely. that's, you know, to your point, it a UK problem that this is also been an inter-manager discussion where we looked and we've got some, again, I'm not sure what I can say on that publicly at the moment, but there's work there. We're looking at trying to address some of those aspects. as say, ⁓ I think the around it is... is going to take, I think, a big effort from the industry as a whole because we have to incentivize that, you know, in terms of subsidizing the cost of it, in terms of rewarding companies that do it. And that's really sort of of the work that's going on at the moment is looking at what mechanisms could potentially, levers could be potentially pulled to actually people to do this because it is a pipeline issue. If we don't have it in place, if we don't facilitate and that next generation to get those positions and get on, then the system is simply going to fall apart and it's that serious, I think. Nick Chubb: problem was sort half solved in the UK with the introduction of tonnage tax. So if you register a ship in the UK, don't pay corporation tax on your profit, you pay basically fixed rate of tax based on tonnage the ships that you own. which means if your ships are profitable, potentially you can have a massive break. That's kind of idea. Part of the requirement for being able sign up to tonnage tax was that you would provide training berths ⁓ for four and ratings as well. Or... you provide funding for those births to be taken out elsewhere. And actually what we've seen over the last kind of 15, 20 years that tonnage tax has been in, I think it might be longer than that actually, 25, 30 years that tonnage tax has been in, the number of births has shrunk. And the amount of money going to a charity that sort of administers this money called the Maritime Education Foundation has ballooned because more shipping companies are electing to pay the money to pay for training instead of providing the births for the training. that's why it's become such a issue in the UK, but yeah, clearly it's a bigger issue than that. ⁓ Raal: Interesting. I mean, I reflect on this a little bit because, you know, when I started in the business 2004, this is quite a weird coincidence, the first week I was at VideoTel, I was asked, I had a theatrical background, you may be surprised to hear, but I... Nick Chubb: No. Raal: The boss called me and said You used to do a bit of acting didn't you? I said yeah, and he said great of our actors has put his back out. So you need to be ready at King's Cross, picked up at four o'clock in the morning. You're going to go to Tilbury and film on board a ship. Now, before go on to say a little more about that, ⁓ in those Videotel really cut its cloth by doing a hell a lot of filming on ships. And they were able to that because the companies wanted to get the material, we're happy to facilitate that. it was very, common when I started there and very exciting, actually, that these film crews were going and there was a department there that were managing ⁓ the facilitating production and getting them access through the ports and access to the ships. And they would go and they would sail with the crews and and be able to of capture them, you know, film, obviously, when important things like that. It's very difficult to film while port operations are going in so typically it would be on the voyage that they'd actually do the kind of filming and outside of it and and I saw that dwindle that ability to do that dwindle in the time that I was there I mean it was over a long you know sort of period maybe 15 years something like that Nick Chubb: Wow. Raal: that but it just got harder and harder for people to say yes, you know, because it was and it was those two things. was availability of births, but to also like the perception of the risk of people kind of. ⁓ Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: you know, being on board. It's just an extra thing for the crew to have to manage when they're also, you know, there were getting under increasing kind of administrative burdens and that sort of stuff. So again, know, a bit of a pipeline then, which again was pipeline of content that then going out and training those next generation of seafarers. of course you can get around it a bit with animation and some of these more creative things, but it's another, it's another interesting kind of angle. But one of the that they, you you mentioned there about the safety aspects of having someone on board. indeed, in my case, it was a very bad thing to because I was welcomed on board film that day in my starring role as Billy the Idiot Cadet. I was one of the oldest cadets in town, I think. ⁓ And I know this footage still exists, but ⁓ Nick Chubb: Wow, if it does. Who has the arc? Raal: It was in a film, it was a film of leadership, well it's owned by Lloyds Register now, maybe they have it. But it was a very good piece of work, this particular thing written by an amazing guy who's sadly no longer with us, but he was a really inspirational guy and very big help to me in my career, guy called Pat Mitchell. And he was a soft skill specialist. Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: So I was Billy the idiot cadet who couldn't do in ⁓ the workshop and an engineer who... would sort of lay into me, you know. he kind of, there two scenarios, you one where I did something stupid and he kind of ripped me to pieces and another one where I did, I once again caught something up and he was much more supportive and he kind of saw the reaction of ⁓ Billy Idiot Cadet. But was actually written in the script as Billy the Idiot Cadet. I wasn't actually referred to that. ⁓ Nick Chubb: you Raal: in the, but it kind of gives you an indication of how attitudes have perhaps changed a little bit Nick Chubb: I'm sure you played the part very well. Raal: I did as best I could. was day or two. I didn't know too much. You know, joking aside, know, we have, there are advantages to having people on to be to learn and to understand and things like that. And in terms of the cadets, you know, of course, what do you from them that first, the first voyage, they're not going to be able to contribute in that way. But as you said, they build that ⁓ and that confidence as they're on And then they're absolutely vital for providing that next generation of seafarers. So finding ways to, to get those incentives right and to create the right atmosphere, whether it's in the way that ships designed, the way that we appreciate those in like inspections and vetting and how we think about the operators and stuff the key to unlocking it, think. It's really thinking about as an industry, how are we going to create facilitate process that we all want to see happen, but maybe we individually don't want to have to pick up the burden for. Nick Chubb: So feel like that's a common in shipping is ⁓ that everyone benefits from that costs one party a lot of money or time or effort. And we're very good at having mechanisms that kind of reward those that create for the rest of the industry, if it makes sense. Raal: Yep. Yeah, I mean, another great example of that is sharing sort of incident data and that sort of stuff, it? Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: know, as you'd expect the the ⁓ state of straight of a moose obviously a big topic as there'll be in any industry forum at the moment and you know that's been grim in the time that we've since I've seen you last in of further attacks and stuff that. You know, it's a really and that we mentioned in The Guardian was something that they revisited as well. I don't know if you saw that. You know, we talked about it a couple of days ago where they actually interviewed a seafarer. It's The Guardian British newspaper. And they a follow up story there as well, which was very, very interesting. And again, it was pretty tough to And there's been some, you know, some escalation. And I did actually notice something as well, a news item that I saw something very interesting while out here got a presentation from so I'll give them a shout out because it's the first one that I've sort of seen taking this on a called prevention at sea Cypriot company you of them. ⁓ So. Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah, I know them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're engine room log books. Raal: Yes, that's right. Yeah, among other things, I think kind of in that interesting space of being in part sort of, you know, providers of technology, but also more kind of consultants able to sort of work with and at that with companies as So it's kind of an interesting space to be in because you're blending. just went out just recently. I think Arsenio Domingo gave few words on this, obviously talking about those that are directly targeting shipping. But he also of raised an eyebrow that anybody would attempt any there ⁓ at the as well, think. Did you see that? It was a really good quote. sort of high headcount business with, you know, with sort of scalable SaaS products. It's kind of interesting. ⁓ very interesting ⁓ from them on sort of in that same sort of space of like, where do we get these data points human beings and be able to of start to kind of develop pictures of what's really going on, where are there risks, where are there skills gaps and all of those sorts of things. And they're the first Nick Chubb: Yeah. Well, six cruise ships just left the Strait of Hormuz. They took the ceasefire as an opportunity to go for it. it actually covered in the telegraph and they a expert to talk about it and ⁓ they find so then they asked me. But I did manage get in that there are about 50,000 still kind of stuck. Raal: Okay. ones to have sort of that I've seen picking up the ball there heavily with that with seeing the potential of AI to bring. Yeah. Nick Chubb: inside the Arabian Gulf and I'm pleased to say that they actually ran it when the story ran. That was part of what they, part of the kind of angle went for, which was nice. It's nice to see sort of awareness of that as a topic in mainstream news because I apart from that coverage from the Guardian, I don't think it's really been talked about very much. Okay. Raal: multiple disparate disconnected data pieces together. think you and I have talked about this quite a lot in terms of, you how do we actually start to build the kind of data pitches that will allow for, you on the fly skills assessments and, and remedial, you know, kind of training actions and stuff like that. You know, I think that is the real frontier, but without the to begin with, it's kind limiting in terms of what you can do. So, Yeah. Yep. Yeah, yeah. Well, certainly, I think it's been better than we've seen in the past, you know, like in terms of something like COVID and stuff like that. But I think it's so shipping is such an integral integral part of that story that, you know, but I think it's I think it's like it could easily be a logistical story. could easily be a kind of like, you know, story about where the cargo is not getting and stuff. think that it's been really good to see that focus on seafarers and stuff there. Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: kind of put some flesh on the bones there. If I run you through an assessment, I'm going to pick up a number of things that tell me sort of knowledge gaps and things like that, and I can then recommend training. And ⁓ could be a very laborious process if we look at sort of individual CIFAR level. ⁓ already, AI, obvious application there to be able to power things like adapted learning because it can kind of look at what the individual knows and then make recommendations of training. today. causing horrific for those that support seafarers as well. It's just like in terms of being able to conduct any kind of crew change and that sort of stuff. So it's a very human, for the seafarers, but also for those that are sort trying to do their best for them and to try and make this work around it. yeah. ⁓ but all of that is still constrained by what's the word for it, a pretty binary entry point, which is like running an assessment test, a multiple choice test or whatever like that, you know. And we can enrich that test with additional stuff like maybe an APRO assessment, something like that. Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Raal: And I also should ⁓ say as well, think, you know, speaks to your ever growing profile that the Telegraph came to you for commentary. think it's a, I ⁓ in you know, occasionally write these little sort of like aims and stuff. I remember, I kind of sort ⁓ of setting your, you you're setting goals. And one of the things I remember setting at Ocean Technologies Group was like, or personality profiling from from facet five and that starts to give us a little bit more data to kind of play with and to work with. But the. Yeah, I have. Yeah, I'm great. Everyone loves me. Now, it's not a test. It's not a test. We should compare. We should compare. Yeah, I don't have mine to hand. Nick Chubb: Have you done a festive part by the way? Raal: would like to be the people that they come to for, you know, when there are these kind of big issues because they want to get their take that from an industry point of view and be what you wish for obviously. But it's of what I mean that you're sort of part of the furniture enough to be able to seen as being somebody who's there in a voice for So I was very pleased to see that you also ⁓ managed, also met Nick Chubb: You ⁓ I'd love to read yours. I'd be fascinated. I've done it. Yeah, do you to compare notes? Maybe not. Maybe not live. Yeah, I guess. Raal: Yeah, I did it once with Lego bricks. Sorry, I did it once and it sort of generated these colours and we used to put the Lego bricks on the desk. The idea was that as you approach someone, you can kind of adjust your... But it became, in my view, sort of gives you a licence to be a bit of a jerk, doesn't it? Sorry! Nick Chubb: for what colours you are. Raal: referenced you as co-host of Undocked. So that was... So we'll see if that leads to a spike viewership. Nick Chubb: Yeah, I I shoehorned that in there. to make sure that undocked got a mention. ⁓ Raal: I'm not a details man, you know. I'm very unapproachable, as you can see from my Lego collection. I'll tell you, actually, I digress for a moment to give shout out to somebody else who introduced me to sort of stuff in the first instance, which is ⁓ a chap called Hile, who did a... Nick Chubb: You I have been enough the years to have been to do ⁓ various bits mainstream media and I can tell it makes ⁓ absolutely zero does not the needle in the slightest commercially. ⁓ Turns out everyone in the reads the trade press, not the mainstream press, so there you go. Raal: Too late. Too late. People sort of on the circuit knew him and said, in fact he was out with us in Crew Connect when we out there. People kept saying to me, you're going to love this guy, you're so similar, you're going to really like this guy. Nick Chubb: All right. Raal: And he said to me, I was arranging a meeting to go and see him, he had a couple of things to talk about. And he, he was with these, these kind of doing these very interesting business sims adapted through for maritime context. Again, quite interesting because another, another really potentially rich data point from how people kind of work through some of those scenarios and what's their normal default behaviors and that sort of stuff. And he said, Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: He said to me, come out for this meeting, but you're to have to do this Facet Five test. I think it was Facet Five, same concept. And ⁓ the was that when he sent it to me, I did it. We got there and he analyzed it for me and he went through it all and explained, you know, these different dimensions of my character and personality. And then said, would you like to see mine? And I said, yeah, you know, ⁓ and he it next to it and it was exactly, almost exactly the same. Nick Chubb: you I think that's us. I don't think we've got time for anything else. Raal: No, we've rambled this week and but yeah look forward to seeing you again next time. Nick Chubb: Awesome. Thanks, Ralph. Thanks all. Bye. Really? Raal: Yeah, and I said, ⁓ well, great. We've got to work together. But thing that was really interesting is he said to me, Bye. Nick Chubb: Absolutely not. Raal: Potentially, because we would, in our case, it was we both like to drive, right? We both will, our default will be to go, right, yeah, great, I've got this, I'm gonna, you So he said we would work very well together on lots of stuff, but we would need to, we would need to introduce a coping mechanism, which would be, we would have that conversation about who's driving, who's supporting, who's, you know, so we don't get in each other's way sort of thing, yeah. Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting, that's very interesting. So if anyone who doesn't know, FASTA 5 is like a personality profile. It's not a test, no, it's a profile. So you get scored for five different things. So will energy, affection, control, and emotionality? Raal: What's yours? Do you remember what yours said? It's not a test. It's not a test. Nick Chubb: they tend to go in pairs. So the one that springs to mind for me ⁓ energy control. So if you score high on energy, generally speaking, you score low on control. And I the and I scored the maximum possible energy, means I'm very much like to just get get things done. I'm always full of ideas. And if someone we should do this, just say yes. And I'm... zero out of ten on control, at least was when I did this years ago, zero out ten on control, means the kind of follow through discipline of actually making sure that when stuff gets started, it gets finished. I'm a zero out of ten on, which I was told by the facilitator is quite an extreme. Normally people, know, even the... Raal: Yeah. Yeah. Nick Chubb: the ones that are particularly high will be seven on one and three on the other, but I was ten and zero. Which is why I have surrounded myself with people who tend to be good at following through. But it's a very helpful thing to know. Raal: Yeah. Yeah, but this is the exact point and this is why you would do it. And in a shipping context, ⁓ this is not something that you do for every seafarer. But when you're looking to put teams together, when you're looking at like what's the right mix and blend. You have to think about it. What's the combination of you're doing there? And you can be very clever about it, by the way. And you can build that. And Roman builds these into his simulation so that he will do these assessments. And then he will build those in so that it tests some of those kind of. ability to accommodate some of those different things and on sort of group decision making and all that sort of stuff. Atria Learning, there you go, Roman, free advertising for my friends. ⁓ No, really good and I was hugely creative and very innovative and stuff like that. ⁓ And where that's interesting from an AI point of view is that clearly doing these kinds of assessments, bringing, let's say that sort of controlled data sets in, Nick Chubb: You Raal: but then possibly bringing in some other more disparate sets and maybe some of the sorts of things that Claire was talking about when you'll see when that episode is. very time consuming to be able to sort of go through that and then get to the point of like, well, so what, what does this tell me? how does this connect to some of the other data that have? And this is of course where AI can apply that those kind of layers of context to be able to, to be able to, Yeah, make sense of that data and bring that those data pictures together to be able to draw hypothesis either for the machine or for somebody that's kind of working with the machine to start to to kind of look at that. Nick Chubb: Have you heard of company called Miramix? Raal: No, it sounded like a band. Nick Chubb: They're worth looking up. They describe themselves as a human data processing platform. ⁓ it's basically a work flowing tool. As understand it, how it's being used on ships the moment is... Raal: Okay. Nick Chubb: actually about kind of reducing ⁓ admin burden. So it's become quite popular in the cruise or they've got clients in the cruise industry where ⁓ basically provide a near enough of digital ⁓ logbook, digital for cruise operations. So instead of filling out a logbook saying that they've come alongside, they fill out ⁓ a on a mobile But the smart thing that happens is once that logbook's out, ⁓ it doesn't have to be there as it can be another digital logbook, is work flowing that exists throughout the ship that then takes that information that's been entered once adds it in every other system that needs to have it. So instead ringing down to the engine room saying we're alongside, notification comes through to log books on the room. so... On the one hand, it's supposed to make data entry easier and mean you only have to do it once. on the other hand, as gets pulled ⁓ these types platforms, work from every you can then use This isn't what they're doing, but this is where I think it can go. You can then use AI ⁓ to be able to off the kind of contextual information that you're talking about. quickly ⁓ particular master gets the ship in or out versus another or particular operation happens because everything gets logged through this backbone that sits across all the different systems. You could plug AI into the top of that to start reviewing things like performance without having to ⁓ sit down do a... survey or review with someone. Raal: Yeah, I I love it, you know, it's fascinating. I think of understanding, you know, lived experience, understanding what's actually how work is being performed and all those kinds of things. That's really that really takes it to another level, because that's not just about looking at how people perform in assessments, which is always slightly dangerous, I think, ⁓ to, you know, what's old one about, you know? Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: culture happening when no one's looking that sort of stuff. ⁓ not just cultural issues, but sometimes, for example, doing job fast might feel like a good thing to do. Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Raal: a job is meant to take half an hour and are clocking it at 20 minutes, know, could be that the procedure was a bit over long and didn't, you know, didn't correctly capture it. It could be that people are, you know, don't realize they're cutting corners and that could be something that then informs, you know, the ⁓ further of checks and stuff that you do. And this the really interesting thing, I think, with why I think is... Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: something, I mean it's you know a constant source of interest at moment but where this kind of where it sort of diverges I guess is that on the one hand it can do the things that we can do now but are really difficult. And that could be like the data analysis and all that sort of stuff. And, you know, we can do it, but it's very expensive and you need all these skilled people to do it and that sort of, so it's kind of like picking up a human ability. And then there's another angle to it, which is like, you know, but the logical extent of the ability for it to do that means that it can work in a totally different way. And instead of analysis being something that happens in the rear view mirror and us saying, well, what happened, you know, we actually actually have the potential ability for it to be something that's working much more in real time much more as a kind of, know, so reporting kind of actually can become decision supporting. In time, know what's happening here. And I could say you, this job's supposed to take longer. Are you sure you're not missing anything or are you, you know? Nick Chubb: Yeah, yeah. Raal: or I see where you're going with this. Are you reading the situation the same way I'm reading the situation because I'm seeing these things. And that's really leads you to another thing which they brought up, which I thought was really interesting, which I'll come back to why in a second. But this idea that the system is at work. the human is still responsible and accountable. Okay. And the more powerful and the more all knowing the is, the more temptation there is for the human being to say, I'm actually being, you know, yeah, this the machine is And then we get some interesting situations, which I'm playing with mentally at the moment for something I'll talk about in moment, which is like, you know, well, how do we kind of navigate and use these systems when actually we are still accountable and responsible and what's the right way to do that? But one of the things the chap who's, I should have his name with me but I have it to hand, ⁓ the of Prevention of Sea mentioned in his, what happens when the human makes the decision that the machine was right? And that's like kind of an even more, interesting topic when it comes to incident investigations and you know reporting and all of those kinds of things it's kind of like ⁓ my god that is i hadn't even thought about that and i thought well i'll put that in my pocket i'm going to take the idea play with that idea Nick Chubb: There's a brilliant stat, which is old, I go back to it quite a lot. Because the example of automation ⁓ in a highly critical world is aviation, right? For the last 20, 25 years, commercial planes have near flight themselves. And that's Raal: Toaster boys. Nick Chubb: question around, the pilots become disengaged up fairly because the planes are so good at flying themselves. There is an old but there was a survey done by BALPA, the pilots union, about 10 years ago. % of pilots ⁓ falling asleep while ⁓ the cockpit. Of that 56%, 29 % said that they had woken up to find the other pilot asleep as well. plane's just carrying on flying itself. that wild? ⁓ your flight home. ⁓ them a strong coffee. Raal: Well, yeah, I've got to take a plane tomorrow, so thank you for that. ⁓ Yeah, well, that leads me to a couple of other stories from the past, I won't go there. the, yeah, the reason that ⁓ other thing to say is just going on from that. The reason that I compelled by this presentation was because I'm actually working on a presentation delivering next week in Riga, in Latvia, at the Contas ⁓ People Conference, which is happening which is again, right up, certainly up my street a topic, frequent sort of topics on the, that we talk about on the podcast and looking at sort of, you know, where fits in terms of interaction with humans in the safety critical environments and looking at some of these, how work is going to primarily and then what we can then take from that around how the development of skills and things needs to evolve and ⁓ will learning kind of look the same? Nick Chubb: Interesting. Raal: do we think about it the same way when, ⁓ know, when... we have support tools coming in that are more up to date than what you would have learned when you first started. And I think it of speaks a little bit to that whole of careers and ⁓ pipeline thing we were talking about as well and how you kind of get people ready. And we're moving from a world where it's loaded, all of it, not just you learn stuff, work is fairly you learn things, move into work and ⁓ you might pick up a few bits of additional learning but fundamentally you did your learning bit that was at the start and then and of course now in a situation where it's far harder to predict what going to work is to be like and so we have to design a model that works differently and you know how that look so that's kind of what I'm shooting for I feel ⁓ I've got quite lot of work to do on it so that's only next week but I'll let you know next week how that goes. Nick Chubb: Yeah. Can I give you a of a thing to talk about? Raal: Mmm, please. Nick Chubb: but it's it's so dystopian. got to screen share you something. ⁓ Raal: unboxing again, live unboxing. ⁓ Nick Chubb: Yeah, it's like another live unboxing. Just describe what you can see on the screen there. Raal: ⁓ my god, yeah, saw this. So what we're ladies and gentlemen, what we're seeing is factory workers in a textile factory. I believe it's in India. And they are wearing ⁓ kind of fairly space age. Nick Chubb: Yeah. Raal: looking, it looks actually I'll tell you what it looks like, it looks like a VR headset without the goggles. So imagine that the bit that supports the goggles that sort of sits around the head and at the the center of that is a camera, it's very small camera and the people are working away all of them wearing these and do you want me to explain why or you Nick Chubb: Yeah. Yeah.