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Alison Milbank on Why Small and Local Might be the Church's Way Forward · Future Christian

0:05
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your
0:08
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
0:11
church into the 21st century.
0:15
At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to
0:18
pastors, authors, and other faith leaders for helpful
0:21
advice and practical wisdom to help you and your
0:24
community of faith walk boldly into the future.
0:27
Now here's your host, Loren Richman
0:29
Juniore.
0:34
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today,
0:37
Martha Tatarnic welcomes Canon Allison Milbanke
0:40
to the show. Allison Milbanke is
0:42
professor of theology and literature at the University of
0:45
Nottingham, where she works in the field of religion and
0:48
the arts. She has had a particular interest in
0:51
horror fiction, from Daughters of the House in 1992
0:54
to God and the Gothic in 2018.
0:57
She has also published on Dante reception and
1:00
on fantasy and religion. She is
1:03
also an anglican priest serving canon theologian
1:06
and priest vicar at Southwell minister
1:10
a cathedral and parish church in a small
1:12
town near Sherwood Forest. In 2010,
1:15
with Nandra Davison, she wrote for the parish,
1:18
a, uh, critique of fresh expressions. And in
1:21
2023, the once and future parish
1:24
with six lectures on the book available on YouTube,
1:26
which well have a link to in the show notes
1:29
associated with the radical orthodoxy movement, she co edited
1:32
preaching radical and orthodox with John Hughes
1:35
and Arabella Milbank Robinson.
1:38
One more thing. Please take a moment to leave a review on
1:41
whatever podcast app youre listening on and share
1:44
this episode with a friend. Thanks and enjoy
1:47
the show.
1:57
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. I
2:00
am your guest host for this summer season,
2:03
Martha Tatarnic. And today I
2:06
am having a conversation across the pond
2:08
with professor Allison Milbanke.
2:11
Welcome to the podcast, Allison.
2:14
I have been following your work for many
2:16
years, and I'm just thrilled to be able to talk
2:19
with you today.
2:22
>> Canon Allison Milbank: It's wonderful to be with you. Thank you so much for the
2:24
invitation.
2:25
>> Martha Tatarnic: Thank you all. Ah, right. Well, let's
2:28
just, uh, give a little bit of
2:30
framework for you and,
2:33
uh, your ministry and your life of faith. Before we
2:36
get into the meat of our conversation,
2:39
maybe you can start by talking a little
2:42
bit about the faith context in which you grew
2:45
up.
2:47
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Well, I grew up in the Church of England, being taken
2:50
to morning prayer from the age of two and a
2:52
half. And so originally in the Book
2:55
of Common Prayer, and then I've grown up through
2:58
the church, um, and
3:01
been to every flavor of anglican church you can
3:04
think of, from evangelical to Anglo Catholic,
3:07
and spent six years in the episcopal church
3:10
in America, living in.
3:11
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, you did? Okay, I didn't
3:14
know that piece of the puzzle. That's very cool.
3:17
So you've spent some time on this side of the
3:20
Atlantic
3:22
absolutely. And Church of England
3:26
Anglican through and through, it sounds like
3:28
no dabbling in other denominations.
3:31
No dabbling, no dabbling.
3:34
But as you say, there is an extraordinary
3:37
range of what anglican churches can look like.
3:40
So, uh, that's very
3:43
cool. Um, over the
3:46
course of that, growing up in the Church
3:49
of England, are there ways in which you have
3:52
seen being a christian change
3:54
from then until now?
3:58
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Yes. I remember as a child
4:01
still growing up in a culture defined
4:04
by Christianity to a great extent.
4:07
We had a day off from school on Ascension Day, for
4:10
example, which was typical of all children,
4:13
um, I think 1995, four,
4:16
when Sunday trading came in
4:19
would be a time that I felt was a watershed
4:22
in terms of secularization, because
4:24
there was no longer a separate day which had a
4:27
particular character and it
4:30
changed everything, I think, as much as things like
4:33
television and uh, other kinds of
4:36
secularising things that stopped
4:39
habits of church going.
4:41
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. Uh, I think there is
4:44
kind of a similar dynamic here in Canada in terms
4:47
of Sunday shopping,
4:50
uh, and just how
4:53
much that makes
4:56
being part of a faith community a choice that goes
4:59
against the grain, you know.
5:01
Uh, it's not something that
5:04
comes easily or that society is
5:07
sort of set up to make,
5:10
make part of your habit.
5:12
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Yeah, absolutely.
5:15
And I think that has a great deal to do
5:18
with secularization. I think it is partly about the way we
5:21
organize time and space,
5:24
um, and inhabit the world. Obviously
5:26
there's been aggressive atheism as well, though
5:29
I think that's passing.
5:32
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I do too.
5:33
>> Canon Allison Milbank: I think generation z is much more
5:36
open to religion and also to quite
5:39
traditional forms of countercultural
5:42
religion that seem mysterious and
5:44
different.
5:46
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, I kind of see
5:48
those trends as well. And uh,
5:51
my kids who are in their teens, they name
5:54
some of that too. It's interesting.
5:57
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Yeah.
5:57
>> Martha Tatarnic: Um, so,
6:00
um, what has brought you to your
6:03
current ministry context?
6:06
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Um, well, I've always been, um, a priest in
6:09
secular employment and see
6:12
my teaching and research as part of my
6:15
priestly vocation. Um, I worked
6:18
formerly in a parish,
6:20
relatively rural parish, though not that far
6:23
from the city, an ex mining
6:25
area. Um, and I now
6:28
live in the little cathedral town. And
6:31
I'm the canon theologian and priest vicar
6:34
at the cathedral, which is also a parish church because it
6:37
is just a small town. So our, uh,
6:40
congregation are local and I do all the kind of things, you know, helping
6:43
with children's work, baptisms,
6:46
weddings, that kind of thing.
6:47
>> Martha Tatarnic: Wow. Okay. So that sounds like quite
6:51
a, uh, wonderful blend of
6:54
vocational elements to be able to have
6:57
that academic, um,
7:00
life and contributions, uh, in
7:03
the, in that
7:06
setting and then also to very much be grounded
7:09
in a parish setting as well.
7:12
Yeah. Um. Good.
7:14
You've got the.
7:18
You're living the dream.
7:21
>> Canon Allison Milbank: I sometimes feel as if I'm doing.
7:23
>> Martha Tatarnic: Three jobs, but
7:26
you're living the dream. But it's hard work.
7:29
That's right.
7:31
>> Canon Allison Milbank: I'm very, very lucky
7:34
indeed.
7:35
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. What's a spiritual practice
7:38
that you are finding meaningful these days?
7:42
>> Canon Allison Milbank: I think I was talking about space and time. I
7:45
think pilgrimage is something that I find
7:47
very, very helpful for my own spiritual
7:50
practice, because I feel every time
7:54
you have an aim, you walk to
7:57
a holy place, you're somehow
7:59
sacralizing the whole landscape, and it's a way in
8:02
which you can reach out to people
8:05
from way beyond organized religion.
8:08
So it has this kind of missional quality as
8:10
well. And so it's something I'm
8:13
trying to develop in my local area.
8:17
Um, big way.
8:18
>> Martha Tatarnic: So, like, a pilgrimage with a particular
8:22
destination is. Can you.
8:24
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Yes. I mean, the one I did on Palm
8:27
Sunday was also the day of Walter Hilton, who was
8:30
a 14th century spiritual writer.
8:33
And he lived just down the road from us in a village called
8:36
Thurgiten, where he was an augustinian canon.
8:39
So we did a palm Sunday service
8:42
in thurgooden with the Walter Hilton element,
8:45
and then we did a pilgrimage to the cathedral over the
8:48
fields where we had
8:50
Evensong and a sermon in honour of Walter
8:53
Hilton. That's just a local pilgrimage that I
8:56
have developed.
8:57
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay.
8:59
>> Canon Allison Milbank: But there are lots and lots of others,
9:01
and I've tried to. I've
9:04
done a water pilgrimage around the wells, thinking about
9:07
water justice. Um, lots
9:10
of local ones. Um,
9:13
but obviously, there are much longer distance ones. I haven't had time
9:16
to do any of those, but I would love to, when
9:19
I time to do a proper long distance
9:22
camino of some sort.
9:23
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. That's wonderful. And I love how
9:26
that practice, uh, that's meaningful for you, is
9:29
something that is also invitational to others.
9:33
Yeah. Beautiful. Well, thank
9:36
you for setting a little bit of groundwork for
9:39
the main topic of our conversation
9:42
today, which is this
9:44
wonderful book, the once and future
9:47
parish. And I think
9:50
given that, uh, that's the title of the book, the once and
9:53
future parish, if we can just start out
9:56
by defining what it is that you mean when you talk
9:59
about the parish and how that's different
10:02
from the church in general.
10:05
>> Canon Allison Milbank: I mean, parish is church in a local
10:08
context, in the english
10:10
context, it has a particular
10:12
geographical manifestation
10:15
in that the whole of England is divided up into
10:18
parishes. And if you're a parish priest, you
10:21
hold the cure of souls for
10:23
everybody in that area. And I would even like
10:26
to develop it in a more ecological direction as
10:29
saying you have a responsibility for the whole of nature,
10:32
um, in that geographical area.
10:35
So obviously in different parts of the world, it
10:38
has a slightly more gathered
10:40
idea. But it's interesting that the
10:43
emerging church are beginning to
10:45
discover the idea of parish, and I've seen one or two
10:48
publications to that effect.
10:52
Um, so it is very much, ah, a kind of
10:55
open, inclusive idea,
10:57
um, which includes everybody in
11:00
your sort of spiritual embrace in a particular
11:03
area.
11:04
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, it's interesting. Like here in Canada,
11:07
certainly. Ah, the anglican church very much
11:10
is centered on that idea of parish
11:12
as well. And yet
11:15
it's not
11:17
exactly how we operate in
11:20
practice, because, you know,
11:23
people church shop and they go to
11:26
the parish church that they like the
11:29
best and often drive by a
11:32
number of other anglican churches in order to get
11:35
to the one that they want to go to. Do you see that same
11:38
dynamic in the UK where there is
11:41
this working definition, but then there's kind of
11:44
the practical way that it gets lived out.
11:47
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Um, I would say in the country, people don't
11:50
tend to church shop, even in
11:53
towns. I thought they did more than they actually
11:56
do. Res publica did a report
11:58
on, um,
12:01
the, uh, social and, um, community contribution
12:04
of anglican parishes. And in their surveys
12:07
they discovered that most people, I think up to sort of
12:10
80% of people going to anglican
12:12
churches are going no more than a mile.
12:15
>> Martha Tatarnic: Wow.
12:16
>> Canon Allison Milbank: So it isn't as church shopping as one
12:19
tends to think. Sometimes when you're in a city centre,
12:22
you will have your big angio Catholic or your big
12:25
evangelical church.
12:27
Um, but it
12:30
is less advanced than we think,
12:34
which is interesting because a lot of
12:37
policy, certainly at the beginning of the
12:39
20th century, was determined on the idea of the
12:42
homogeneous unit principle that
12:44
people chose, and that's really what
12:47
they did. Um, whereas it doesn't seem to be
12:50
quite as much the case as we used to
12:53
think.
12:54
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, okay, that's interesting. I don't know what the
12:57
stats would be here, but,
12:59
uh, I can't imagine
13:02
that it's such a high
13:05
percentage of people who worship in their
13:08
local parish. One of the things that
13:10
I, um, have sort of always
13:13
found, particularly
13:16
life giving about the idea of the parish is
13:19
that we live in a world of
13:21
choice. Like where you can go to the grocery
13:24
store and there's about 250
13:27
different cereals that you can buy
13:30
and you can
13:32
choose exactly what fiber content and
13:35
sugar content and protein content you want for your
13:38
morning cereal, and you can just about get
13:41
drowned in sort of all of the consumer
13:44
choices. To be part
13:46
of a parish is
13:49
to get to be
13:52
chosen. Rather than being the
13:55
chooser, you get to be chosen.
13:58
Um, this is where you
14:01
get to worship because this is
14:04
where God has planted you.
14:06
Um, what do you find to
14:09
be particularly important about
14:12
that parish idea for the life of faith?
14:16
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Well, I think exactly as you do. I think the
14:19
givenness of it is a
14:21
blessing, and it kind of helps
14:24
you bring together all your different
14:27
identities and
14:30
modes of life and kind of earth
14:32
them in the sense, as you
14:35
say, that God has kind of put you there.
14:38
I do love the mixed character of
14:41
the parish. Okay. It may be that we're
14:44
finding it harder to get more and more
14:47
younger people, but, you know, you do have a
14:50
mixed community of different
14:52
ages, different cultures. I was
14:55
in Leicester a little while ago at an inner
14:58
city church that they'd got 21 different
15:01
nationalities, but you know, they're all there
15:03
because they all live in this inner city.
15:06
Mhm. Kind of area. And where else would
15:09
they be brought together? And I feel too
15:12
that it has this sense that
15:15
you're in for the long haul, that, you
15:18
know, that it's the place where you're going to
15:21
grow in your sacramental life. And the sacraments
15:24
are these points of encounter and growth
15:27
which you do communally. And so there's a kind
15:30
of communal growing that comes
15:33
from this
15:35
plantedness.
15:36
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, I think so too. And I think
15:39
the other component that I think about a lot
15:42
is, um, like,
15:45
you know, who your neighbor is. Like you,
15:49
uh, it's, it's about
15:52
like the givenness of
15:56
your community. Um, but it's
15:59
also the clarity of service.
16:02
You know, like
16:05
you are called to serve this
16:08
particular area in a very
16:11
rooted sort of way. I was in a conversation
16:13
with, um, a friend of
16:16
mine who's part of an evangelical
16:18
tradition. And he
16:21
was sort of noting that his church
16:24
had,
16:26
um, moved out of the downtown
16:29
and into, um, a place where they
16:32
could get a great big piece of land and have a big parking
16:35
lot. And this is because their church is
16:37
exploding with people and so on and so forth.
16:40
But he just sort of reflected to me, like, I
16:43
don't. I don't think that like, I think we
16:46
should be where the need is. I think that we should
16:49
be like, not just kind of
16:51
going for the big parking lot. I think that we should
16:54
be attending to who our
16:57
neighbor is.
16:59
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Mhm. Yeah. And then
17:02
everything kind of connects too, because
17:05
people tell you about what's happening or they tell
17:08
you who's ill or that
17:10
then you're in a position to make relationships with all
17:13
the other kinds of faith communities,
17:16
different kinds of need, as you say,
17:19
with the local council, people in the local pubs and
17:22
cafes. Your life becomes more
17:24
integrated. That helps
17:27
everybody's mental health, apart from anything else, as well
17:30
as their happiness, um, and their
17:32
effectiveness, because they know what's going on. They
17:35
really know what the need is because
17:38
of the quality of relationships that you have.
17:41
If you just, you know, if you just,
17:44
um, work outwards, it's a kind of orientation,
17:47
it's not a kind of closing in a boundary.
17:49
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
17:50
>> Canon Allison Milbank: So much like a kind of compass.
17:52
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, compass. I like that. And I like that
17:55
word integrated, because it is
17:58
such a response to the dislocation that I
18:00
think can really haunt
18:03
modernization, secular life. And, you know, we're going
18:06
to get to talking, um,
18:09
more about, more in depth about how the parish
18:12
is a response to some of the greatest
18:14
needs in our world today. But I think that
18:17
sense of integration and
18:20
anchoring, um, is a huge
18:22
piece of that response.
18:26
>> Canon Allison Milbank: And I mean, all the academic research
18:29
shows this.
18:30
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Like, not just religious
18:33
academic research, but like
18:36
psychological research
18:39
and. Yeah, yeah,
18:42
yeah. For sure. Now, like,
18:45
spoiler alert. Your book, um,
18:48
very much walks us through
18:51
how this idea of
18:54
parish, as much as
18:57
the two of us could sing its praises all day,
19:00
evidently, um, how the idea of
19:03
the parish actually is significantly under
19:06
threat. So maybe you
19:08
can walk us through some of
19:11
those dynamics that are
19:13
threatening, uh, the centrality of the
19:16
parish in the life of the church. And I
19:19
was surprised and intrigued
19:22
by one of the first
19:25
dynamics that you identified, which is
19:28
this, uh, religionless
19:30
Christianity.
19:34
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Yeah. So in my book, I'm not looking
19:37
at the external forces of
19:39
secularization so much as the way, as
19:42
Charles Taylor puts it, good canadian,
19:45
um, secularization runs through
19:48
us and
19:51
in particular our institutions. And
19:54
obviously, it's a long story, but one
19:56
key step for me
19:59
is the way that certainly in
20:02
England, but I think probably also in
20:05
other anglophone countries and Germany as
20:07
well. Um, the late
20:10
prison writings of Dietrich
20:13
Bonhoeffer actually affected the
20:15
way we think about the church. Now, m in
20:18
many ways, Bonhoeffer is regarded as a
20:21
saint because of his opposition
20:24
to, um,
20:26
Nazism and his death.
20:29
Um, and I am full of admiration for him as
20:32
well. But in prison, he
20:35
talks a little bit about religionist Christianity,
20:38
by which he means he tends to think of religion as
20:41
what human beings do, right, their
20:43
rituals, their practices. And he's a good lutheran,
20:46
so for him, what really matters is God's
20:49
action. And he sort of separates those
20:52
two, and he thinks that so
20:55
compromised is the church because of
20:57
Nazism, that in the future we
21:00
need to do away. I mean,
21:03
he doesn't really articulate this in a very developed way because
21:06
he's just in prison and it's, you know, throwaway
21:09
remarks. But these were taken
21:12
in the 1960s, particularly by John
21:14
Robinson in his book honest to God and
21:17
South bank religion, as saying that kind
21:20
of humanity has come of age.
21:22
Religion is somehow, uh,
21:25
um, I don't know, a kind of
21:28
crutch, and that we need to throw it away
21:31
and embrace the secular and, um,
21:33
the practice of this. And this can be demonstrated.
21:36
Mark Chapman, and in particular, fine essay,
21:40
has actually excavated the little magazines
21:43
and things where all this was discussed. And it does
21:46
mean that you begin to think that people who go to church have got some kind
21:49
of psychological problem,
21:52
really, the future lies in embracing
21:55
the culture, um, embracing the
21:58
secular. And the really weird way is that
22:01
this defines liberal Christianity
22:04
in the decades ahead, where the secular that
22:06
writes the agenda, but also
22:09
certain forms of charismatic
22:12
evangelicalism as well. So the
22:15
emerging church itself thinks that it emerges
22:18
out of this particular culture. And the idea of church
22:20
culture has no value at all. And I think
22:23
the effect of this, over time has
22:26
been to develop a
22:29
belief that our traditions, our, uh,
22:32
practices, our, uh, liturgies, our ways of
22:35
doing things are, ah,
22:38
of the past and irrelevant.
22:41
Um, and so I think this lies
22:44
behind. I've listened to sermons about
22:47
this umpteen times throughout my
22:49
life. Um,
22:52
and I do think that it's been internalized,
22:55
um, all the way through, um, and it continues, though
22:58
it is particularly strong among
23:01
retired clergy of about
23:03
between 70 and 90.
23:06
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. I think that
23:09
very much tracks. And I think
23:12
you're absolutely right that it is so internalized
23:15
that it was never even
23:17
interrogated.
23:21
I remember a mentor of mine
23:24
early on saying that she
23:27
hoped that, um, she.
23:30
That eventually, if she was
23:33
really doing her job well, she would eventually work herself
23:36
out of a job. Like
23:39
this idea that the
23:42
parish church is sort of,
23:44
uh, a stopgap or a crutch or
23:47
something that we're using until
23:51
we don't need it anymore.
23:54
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Uh, the kingdom. I
23:57
mean, the use of kingdom language is quite interesting.
24:00
People keep talking nowadays about building the kingdom,
24:03
as if you build the kingdom, in my view, you get the tower of
24:06
Babel. The kingdom is not that kind of thing.
24:09
It's not something that we can just
24:12
bring about. Um, but it's part
24:15
of this whole way in which the
24:18
secular is baptized, um,
24:21
as somehow really
24:23
where the Holy Spirit is at now, I'm not saying, I'm not trying
24:26
to, you know, I'm not trying to limit the Holy Spirit's work
24:29
for a moment.
24:30
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right.
24:31
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Um, but it's not the same
24:33
thing as
24:36
denying. I mean, it's almost. You're
24:39
denying the church itself and you
24:42
kind of blame the church almost for
24:45
existing. Um, and it means
24:48
that you're no longer
24:51
doing your liturgies, your practices,
24:54
with confidence. I've actually listened to
24:57
sermons where people say, well, you know, you may not go
24:59
to church. You're on your own spiritual quest.
25:03
That's fine.
25:04
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
25:08
yeah. And, you know,
25:10
like, it is true. You don't need to go to
25:13
church to be a good person. Like, that is
25:16
true. But I don't think that that was
25:19
ever particularly on the table
25:22
about what we thought we were about. Like,
25:26
it's. It's not. It's
25:29
not about being a good person.
25:33
>> Canon Allison Milbank: It's doing what
25:36
Christ told us to do, you know?
25:38
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah.
25:40
>> Canon Allison Milbank: It's in remembrance of me.
25:42
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
25:43
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Like this.
25:45
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. If you baptized,
25:48
if you want to love and serve
25:51
God, you have to figure out how to love and
25:54
serve your neighbor. And here's a
25:56
really life giving way of figuring
25:59
that out, you know?
26:02
Yeah. Yeah. I do see that sort
26:05
of embarrassment
26:08
about who we are, um, being
26:11
quite,
26:13
uh, quite strong in the
26:16
life of the anglican church anyway.
26:19
>> Canon Allison Milbank: And I'm not talking about an opposite
26:21
triumphalism either, but a kind of
26:24
faithfulness and truthfulness
26:27
to who we are,
26:30
which can still be
26:33
transformative, both for individuals but
26:36
also for churches. I can. I watched it,
26:39
um, if I'd had more time to do my book, it was going to have
26:42
case studies at particular parishes where
26:45
they are managing to
26:48
do the traditional in a transformative way
26:51
and to serve their neighbour.
26:55
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Well, maybe that's the next volume.
27:00
Um, one of the other pieces that
27:03
you really detail,
27:06
um, is
27:09
sort of around a creeping
27:11
managerialism in the life
27:14
of the Church of England.
27:16
Um, and, you know, your book
27:19
is very, uh,
27:22
specific examination of
27:25
financial, uh, choices and structural choices
27:28
in the church in England. But
27:31
I wanted to have you on the podcast because
27:34
I think that, um,
27:37
some of those dynamics really do
27:40
hold sway across
27:42
denominations and cultural
27:45
contexts. I certainly,
27:47
um, see a lot of
27:50
those dynamics present here in Canada in a
27:53
variety of our denominations. Is
27:55
that a response to
27:58
decline secularism? All of the
28:01
anxiety that sort of goes with that in terms of the
28:04
church's survival,
28:07
um, gets
28:09
funneled into a very
28:12
bureaucratic response. And if
28:15
we just structure ourselves better,
28:17
if we just, um,
28:20
if we just kind of invest more
28:23
in managing
28:26
and strategizing, then
28:29
maybe we can bail out the sinking
28:31
boat, I think, is sort of
28:35
the idea.
28:36
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Um.
28:38
>> Martha Tatarnic: Why do you feel that
28:40
bureaucracy is
28:43
appealing as an answer to decline?
28:47
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Well, I think you're right that it is anxiety.
28:51
One bishop told me, you do stay
28:53
up at night worrying about
28:56
how you're going to pay the bills. It's a bit different
28:59
for us in the Church of England because we do actually have money, but that's
29:02
another story. Um, so I think it is
29:05
anxiety, but I think if you've lost
29:08
trust in
29:10
yourself as an institution
29:12
and what it is you're aiming at,
29:15
your absolute aim, which is to preach the gospel
29:19
and celebrate the
29:21
sacraments, then
29:24
medium aim, like efficiency, the so
29:27
called smart goals, become your
29:30
end aims.
29:31
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
29:32
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Or they require all
29:35
sorts of kinds of instantiation and
29:38
targets, and targets have to be
29:41
proved and people have to be there to check, keep on the
29:43
targets. So that builds up a
29:46
whole kind of culture, um, so that
29:49
we have, um, you know, obviously
29:52
there are ones that all institutions
29:55
are, um, prone to health
29:58
and safety, um, safeguarding,
30:01
and not for a moment saying, we don't need to keep people
30:03
safe. But it's almost as if safeguarding
30:06
itself has become its own kind
30:09
of end, and it isn't actually doing the job. That's
30:12
what's really so tragic, um, that we're
30:15
putting in place. Um, and then if you think that the answer
30:18
is always new initiatives, when new
30:20
initiatives seem to grow their own bureaucracy, bureaucracies,
30:23
mission enablers, job titles
30:26
that nobody can really understand,
30:29
um, they seem to have to be rolled
30:32
out, and then they need targets and they need
30:34
checking, and so you lose
30:37
touch with your kind of core activities
30:41
and they go by the by. It's a very old
30:43
fashioned kind of managerialism, which really dates from the
30:46
1980s, still perform
30:49
sometimes. I mean, there's a company in Britain called
30:52
Wilco where when they were failing,
30:55
they put far too much money into the centre
30:58
and took all the money out of the
31:00
shops where they were trying to sell
31:03
things. That's a result, you know, they've just
31:06
imploded. And I think the same thing will
31:08
happen with the church, because instead of
31:11
actually funding properly
31:15
the work, where actually you raise the money, because I don't
31:17
know about your church, it's probably the same as mine. But in the
31:20
Church of England, the parishes pay for themselves.
31:24
Nobody else, um, pays money to keep
31:27
these historic buildings going unless they can apply for grant.
31:30
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, exactly.
31:31
>> Canon Allison Milbank: They raise their money for that. They raise the money for their
31:34
clergy, by and large, the sum money for
31:37
poor parishes. But the Church of England's decided
31:40
to take most of the money it used to give to parishes out
31:43
and put it into sort of glitzy
31:46
new mission activities. So the poorer parishes are the
31:49
income stream and actually if they were going to be
31:52
efficient, that's where they should be putting their money, because that's where
31:55
they get a return. But instead it all goes
31:57
into the central
31:59
bureaucracy and then that
32:02
doesn't actually produce any money.
32:05
So even on its own instrumental
32:07
grounds, it's
32:10
failing, sadly. Um,
32:13
and it just makes people in the parish
32:16
really angry because if you're a church warden
32:19
or elder, I don't know what the term is
32:22
in the canadian church,
32:24
um, you have more and more
32:27
bureaucracy to deal with at that
32:29
level. So getting volunteers then
32:32
becomes more difficult. So I do. Part
32:35
of me genuinely doesn't understand
32:38
quite why they are so
32:41
fixated on this old model,
32:44
particularly when really up, uh, to the minute
32:47
kind of businesses are much more relational.
32:49
Mhm. And horizontal.
32:51
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
32:54
>> Canon Allison Milbank: So I'm not really able to give you
32:57
an answer except that I think they're accepting
33:00
a kind of economy of lack. And
33:03
my own view is that mission and
33:05
um, evangelism and ministry
33:08
and everything should always be seen
33:11
out of a kind of fullness of God's
33:13
gifting. Even if you know
33:16
you're struggling, you should somehow live through
33:20
that fullness, not through
33:22
feeling that everything is limited and that's how
33:25
you're going to act.
33:26
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, I think as
33:29
you said, it is so
33:32
connected to that, uh,
33:35
crisis of confidence that
33:40
what we have is something a
33:42
little embarrassing and outdated
33:45
and not that important.
33:48
And then you sort of go grasping at
33:51
straws trying to
33:53
see a success model somewhere else
33:56
that might give the answers.
33:59
Um. But yeah, there is
34:02
a certain,
34:04
uh,
34:07
lack of coherence about
34:09
it.
34:12
>> Canon Allison Milbank: I m mean, in Britain they, um, send the
34:15
bishops on little mbas.
34:18
Um, but one of the people who was,
34:20
um, teaching them is somebody called Paula vennels and she
34:23
was head of the post office. And you may not know this in
34:26
Canada and America, but our post office
34:29
is the center of a scandal, um, where
34:32
lots and lots of postmasters were accused
34:35
falsely of, um,
34:38
taking money out when it was just the computer system. But
34:41
the institution so trusted
34:43
the centre and saw its reputation as all that
34:46
mattered, that it let these people go to prison.
34:49
Some people committed suicide, all
34:52
because they were working through smart goals
34:55
which privilege the centre, value
34:58
the centre, and end up, uh, instead of thinking we're there
35:01
to deliver letters, parcels,
35:04
think we're there to support the institution and its
35:07
central manifestation. And I fear
35:10
that's the way we've gone, certainly in the Church of England.
35:15
>> Martha Tatarnic: One of my favorite, uh,
35:17
quotations in the book was from the
35:20
bishop of Chelmsford,
35:23
um, talking about
35:26
strategic plans. And I am,
35:28
um, notoriously not good
35:31
at strategic plans. I'm good at
35:34
figuring out a next step,
35:36
I'm good at keeping momentum going, because
35:39
I can usually figure out what we need to do next.
35:42
But five year plans
35:45
just throw me into a complete,
35:48
ah, tizzy.
35:51
Um, anyway, so the bishop says
35:53
the language of vision and strategy
35:56
risks ignoring the reality of
35:58
frailty, brokenness and
36:01
sin, and that everyone following the same
36:04
program is not the only way.
36:07
Um, what
36:10
do you think we need to be wary of
36:13
with strategic plans and vision
36:16
documents as a response
36:19
to uncertainty in the church?
36:22
>> Canon Allison Milbank: I think the problem with them, um, is their
36:25
grandiose nature, um,
36:28
and the fact that they're not embedded
36:31
in experience. I think there is some
36:34
value to a parish
36:37
community, or even a deanery, or even a
36:40
diocese, um,
36:42
doing really deep, knowing an
36:45
investigation of where they are, where the
36:48
points of need are, uh, where the points of support are
36:51
needed. But again, as you say,
36:54
that's just if you've got your, your
36:57
proper gospel goals, if you know what I mean,
37:00
then you just move gently in a more
37:03
incarnational way, where you are
37:06
discerning need, building relationships, finding
37:09
out what you can do in small ways,
37:12
um, and so you can have plans, but as soon
37:15
as you have grandiose ones, then you're in again
37:17
into, um, targets
37:20
and the language of growth
37:23
and all that is just like the law in St.
37:26
Paul. It just sort of sets you up to fail,
37:30
um, because things change. You say
37:32
five years, a huge amount can
37:35
change. Just think back five years we had, you know,
37:38
the COVID pandemic in the middle of that, not to mention in
37:41
my country, and I'm sure all around the world, you know, the cost of
37:44
living, crisis, wars,
37:47
five years, so much changes, mhm.
37:50
That you're best to have your
37:53
proper telos and then
37:56
your deep knowing and you're moving
37:59
to plan, as you say, the
38:02
next step. Always having a
38:05
focus on,
38:07
um, the wider
38:09
picture, uh, and the wider
38:12
need. But the fact that they are not
38:14
embedded, I think is the real problem
38:17
that they, I mean, it's just like, um,
38:20
I was telling you before the broadcast of this little
38:23
black majority church in south London, St.
38:26
John's, Earlsfield, um,
38:28
they had a mission plan best their hearts, a very little
38:31
church. But you know,
38:34
they're, they had plans for
38:37
reaching out to the social housing beyond them,
38:39
and they were getting on with this. Um,
38:42
and they also had a food bank
38:45
where people who were in need could come. And it
38:48
got so big, they shared it with another
38:50
church. What does the diocese do? It applies for a
38:53
big strategic fund to allow a
38:56
great big church from another area in London
38:59
to take over their church. And what are they going to do?
39:02
What's their big plan to start a food bank? They
39:05
hadn't noticed this little church,
39:08
so got one. The fact is, not in the
39:11
building is it outgrew them and they're now sharing
39:14
it. And what's better thing than to be actually sharing
39:17
this kind of work and growing it? But
39:20
that's because they were just embedded and they knew
39:22
what was needed. Whereas these people, that their plan were
39:25
just on paper and they'd
39:28
done no talking to the local people whatsoever
39:31
or consultation. And that's
39:34
what's wrong with these big clans. I think
39:37
they're far too colonialist in their, uh,
39:40
mode of working.
39:41
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, colonialism,
39:44
you know, hasn't been shown to have worked
39:47
all that well, but we're still pretty
39:50
invested in it. I like that
39:53
word embedded. I think that's really important. And I
39:55
mean, I think too, like, if we take anything
39:58
from our sacred stories, like,
40:01
it's that God rarely sort of
40:04
shows up and does the thing that we're expecting.
40:07
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Like Jesus just
40:10
potted around a very, very small area. If
40:13
you've ever visited the holy land, you realize
40:16
practically, well, he did walk it, but, you know, it's,
40:19
um, it was, uh, you know,
40:21
he didn't do very grandiose,
40:24
kind of.
40:25
>> Martha Tatarnic: No, no, doesn't.
40:28
Not, uh, grandiose at all. Yeah.
40:32
Um, I think that one of the things that
40:35
I found challenging in
40:38
your book, I mean, there's a lot of, I
40:41
think, challenging takeaways, but,
40:43
um, you know, you call into question
40:48
the move towards closing small,
40:50
struggling parish churches and investing in church
40:53
centers that can serve a wider area.
40:57
I think that in our denomination,
41:00
anyway, um,
41:02
that has been considered for a long time to be
41:05
an important way forward in terms
41:08
of increasing secularization and
41:11
diminishing resources. Um,
41:14
that if we can invest in
41:17
fewer buildings and build stronger
41:20
teams, um, then we have
41:22
a better shot of being able to really
41:26
serve our communities rather than just be struggling
41:28
to keep the doors open, um,
41:31
which isn't super life giving
41:34
for communities of faith, just to
41:37
be trying to keep the lights on.
41:39
Um, but as I said, you kind
41:42
of call that into question as a
41:45
strategy. I'm wondering, do you see
41:48
ways in which you
41:51
do think it's important for
41:54
the church to consider restructuring as
41:56
we live in a time where there
41:59
are fewer people wanting to
42:02
participate in a community of faith?
42:06
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Well, um, we tried
42:08
teams in the Church of England in the sixties
42:11
and seventies and they were generally very
42:14
unpopular, both with the clergy and the people.
42:17
So they more or less, I mean, they
42:20
still one or two here and there, but
42:23
they basically failed as a model.
42:26
Um, recently the Church of England has done some
42:29
surveys and those surveys have
42:32
found that the relationship between the priest
42:35
and the people, um, the closer
42:38
it is, the more likely you are
42:41
to have success. The Church
42:43
of England's first, um, big
42:46
pastoral reorganisation on this centralising
42:49
model was in Wigan, in the north of England,
42:52
um, a sort of poor northern,
42:55
ex military middletown. Um,
42:58
they poured money into it to allow this to happen because
43:01
it always takes a lot of bureaucracy. But, um,
43:04
the idea was to move away from parishes into hubs,
43:07
to centralize clergy, to centralize funeral
43:10
ministry. It's been an utter
43:12
failure. Congregations, um, fell
43:15
by a third during this period.
43:18
Money contributions fell by a
43:20
third. Deanery money
43:23
fell Eightfold. Um, the
43:26
funeral taxi rank system
43:29
was appalling and people really
43:32
missed. Lay people often were the people who,
43:35
in the local church would organize funerals. But
43:38
again and again you found people who were being
43:41
buried, you know, church people being buried
43:44
by strangers, um, in this
43:46
system. And so there was an independent report
43:49
about it and it was so negative that rumour has it that
43:52
the Church of England is hoping to try and organize
43:55
another report so that they can make it look better.
43:59
But, I mean, that's just the first example that started,
44:02
I think, in about 2012. I spoke
44:05
to the rector of
44:07
Wigan, who retired.
44:10
Um, the irony was the clergy
44:12
realized that they needed to work together more
44:15
closely and they'd been meeting together and having
44:18
Bible study and talking about how it could be managed
44:21
and still have that relationality
44:23
without over centralization.
44:26
But when, again, when it happened,
44:29
all that was just by the by, they
44:32
took them to a posh hotel and just told them
44:35
what was going to happen. And, um,
44:38
um, oversight, um,
44:40
ministry is the answer and it means that you
44:43
have a priest as a kind of manager
44:47
managing a lay team,
44:49
and priests don't go into
44:52
priesthood mainly to become
44:55
oversight ministers. They
44:57
want hands on
44:59
ministry. Um, so it's going to
45:02
be, well, it's already quite difficult to
45:04
recruit for these kinds of jobs.
45:07
We did a survey, too. I belong to an organization called
45:10
Save the Parish, which the name is on the
45:13
tin. Um, but we did
45:15
survey ordinance to see how many of them were
45:18
being prepared for oversight ministry.
45:21
About a third. Um, and
45:24
then how many of them saw themselves as oversight
45:26
ministers in the future. I think the answer was about
45:30
0.1%.
45:32
>> Martha Tatarnic: Wow.
45:32
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Um, so I
45:35
don't think it's
45:38
really going to work. Now. There is a
45:41
problem, but I think the problem,
45:43
okay, we've got secularization, and so numbers
45:46
are falling. But if you've got a church that
45:49
doesn't value priesthood, and our
45:51
churches in England anyway, is more and
45:54
more wanting to
45:57
so value lay ministry
46:00
that they're not making it feel that, you know, why would anybody want to
46:03
be a priest? Um, you don't value
46:05
it. You give them impossible jobs.
46:09
Um, if you're centralizing more and more
46:11
ministry, you're not going to be able to have the
46:13
relationships with people where you
46:16
could find out whether they've got vocations to the
46:18
priesthood. So it's a vicious circle that you're not going to
46:21
have enough priests to do
46:24
these jobs. Um, so we wouldn't really kind
46:27
of start from there. But clergy are
46:30
being attracted to the diocese in England anyway,
46:33
where parish ministry is still operating. And those
46:36
include some of the poorest. Right, like,
46:40
which is still, despite its poverty,
46:44
committed to parochial ministry.
46:48
Um, and, um, Chichester,
46:51
London, Edmondsbury and Ipswich. There are a
46:54
number that are not going down this route
46:57
because we know all the evidence shows that it needs to further
47:00
decline. Now, it may be different for
47:02
you in a slightly. I know you've still got the parish
47:05
system, but it's probably slightly more
47:08
gathered in the way it operates. I
47:11
don't know.
47:12
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Um, I'm sure
47:15
that there are differences and, for example,
47:18
like, I'm in a city of
47:21
130,000 with
47:24
seven or eight anglican churches, which
47:27
is a lot of
47:29
resources going into a lot of
47:32
buildings. Um, and so the
47:35
questions around what is a faithful
47:38
restructuring? In St. Catharines, where I am, is quite
47:41
different from the more rural parts of
47:44
Canada, where if you close a
47:47
parish church, people
47:50
don't have another option of where to
47:52
go. You're simply kind
47:55
of removing, um,
47:58
that. That
48:00
christian witness from
48:03
that community.
48:05
>> Canon Allison Milbank: But Wigan was about. I think Wigan may be a bit
48:08
smaller than, um. I'm not sure, maybe about
48:11
the same. That was an urban
48:13
example. All the research shows that urban
48:16
areas, people are just as, you know,
48:19
they're just as well. In fact, in Wigan, they thought of
48:22
all the little different bits of Wigan are thought of as sort of
48:25
individual communities, often centered
48:28
around an original mill, right. So
48:31
they had a work center. So I
48:34
would suggest that the evidence, certainly from
48:37
my side of the Atlantic, is that this
48:39
will not necessarily,
48:42
um, help at all. And in fact,
48:45
keeping a church going, it can be a
48:47
burden, but it can be thought of almost as an
48:50
opportunity. It can go
48:53
both ways, depending how it's managed, how,
48:56
you know, what, the nature of the challenge,
49:00
it can itself be missional. For example,
49:03
um, one church near me that
49:05
was facing closure
49:08
partly because of the cost of
49:11
keeping it up. The threat of closure actually
49:14
brought all sorts of people who don't even go to church
49:17
to come together, to,
49:19
um, to actually assure
49:22
its future, both as a building and as a
49:25
community. I mean, I think buildings matter.
49:28
I think buildings are wholly missional. I do not think of
49:31
them as baggage, which is what the moderator of
49:34
the Church of Scotland, where I regret to say, that's the
49:36
presbyterian church, which is the established church in
49:39
Scotland, is about to close three or
49:41
400 churches
49:43
with huge social consequences.
49:46
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, huge
49:49
social consequences, for sure. And, you know,
49:52
we've had recent conversations on
49:55
this podcast about, um,
49:59
those consequences as
50:02
we lose social space,
50:05
um, that in most cases, when
50:08
those buildings are gone, is redeveloped
50:10
into for profit
50:14
condominiums or,
50:16
um, various other commercial spaces.
50:19
And what is lost to the
50:22
fabric of communities when
50:25
those social spaces are gone for good.
50:28
Um, yeah, uh,
50:31
I think I certainly grew up in an age where
50:34
our buildings were considered baggage, and you
50:37
don't have, like, the church is not a building, and
50:40
it's not, the church is a community,
50:43
um, but buildings can be
50:46
a,
50:49
uh, remarkable resource
50:52
of ministry and gathering.
50:56
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Um, they tell people
50:59
that God is stable and cares
51:02
for them, and that their area has value
51:05
and matters. I mean, even
51:08
before you talk about the fact that they are gathering
51:10
places where you have space, where you can hold an
51:13
electoral meeting, you can bring people
51:16
together. Um, it's
51:19
a place people can go to for help.
51:21
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. You can have
51:24
recovery groups and food banks and,
51:27
um, karate
51:30
dojos and sort of all kinds
51:33
of amazing things that, that serve
51:35
the community in very real ways, feeding
51:38
programs. And again,
51:41
um, it's this,
51:45
uh, uh, I think it matters
51:48
that in the heart of our communities, a place
51:50
where prayer is lifted up and offered, and
51:53
that the sacraments are seen as benefiting
51:56
not just the people who are gathered there.
51:59
That when we lift up the bread and wine,
52:02
we're not just lifting up the needs
52:05
of our own community who's physically
52:08
there. Like, we're lifting up, um, the needs of the
52:11
world. And surely we've got
52:14
to believe that, that prayer matters,
52:17
that it has spiritual
52:20
ramifications for whether or not it's happening
52:23
in the heart of our communities.
52:26
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Otherwise, we should just go home and have a cup of tea or something
52:29
stronger. Yeah.
52:30
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, right.
52:31
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Like, it doesn't matter.
52:34
>> Martha Tatarnic: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean,
52:38
I absolutely could not
52:41
be with you. More on that. Uh, my last book is
52:43
called why gather? And, like,
52:48
we need to know that there are compelling reasons
52:50
why this matters other
52:53
than. Yeah. Just sort of
52:56
inherited baggage.
53:01
Yeah. So. Okay, so
53:05
I've served as an
53:07
ordained parish priest for the past 20
53:10
years. Um, it's
53:14
not what I would have chosen to do with my
53:16
life. Um, I wanted to go into
53:19
law, but, uh, I felt
53:22
called to do this in a way that I
53:25
didn't really feel I could say no to.
53:28
Um, there are lots of ways in which I feel
53:31
like I'm unequal to the task. I have to rely
53:34
on God's grace
53:36
regularly in order to be
53:39
in a sort of ministry
53:41
that has me do things like get up in
53:44
pulpits and preach sermons,
53:47
um, and be much more extroverted
53:49
than I naturally am. And all of those things
53:53
I have found lots of times
53:55
where, um,
53:58
carrying the weight of people's grief and
54:01
anxiety,
54:04
burying people I love,
54:07
it can all feel like it is
54:10
too much. Um, I've
54:12
definitely taken on the Messiah
54:15
complex at times in parish ministry and
54:18
believed that if I just worked
54:21
harder and longer and smarter, then I'd be able
54:24
to save the institutional church.
54:27
During COVID I mostly
54:30
just was looking for another
54:33
option for what I could do with my life.
54:36
And yet, having said all of that and
54:39
being transparent and honest about
54:42
the challenges, I have to say that
54:45
20 years in the. And I believe
54:48
myself to be fortunate,
54:51
blessed beyond measure,
54:53
um, to be able to be a parish
54:56
priest. And that it
54:59
is sort of the greatest joy
55:02
and privilege alongside
55:05
all of those challenges, um, that I
55:07
get to walk with a local,
55:10
embodied community of faith. And I say all the time
55:13
that my faith is stronger because
55:16
of the people that I get to
55:19
serve with in the parish
55:21
church. So I'm pretty
55:24
convicted of the idea that, uh,
55:27
the local community of faith, the parish,
55:30
is a profoundly life
55:32
giving response to the biggest
55:35
challenges our world faces right now.
55:38
And certainly that's
55:41
where I hear you landing in this book as well,
55:44
is that, um,
55:47
the parish has been
55:50
threatened. It hasn't
55:52
been valued, uh, in terms
55:55
of how we talk or in terms of how we resource
55:58
it. But it
56:01
matters, like, the parish matters, and it
56:04
matters in a way that is not just
56:07
important for those of us who like church.
56:10
It matters for the sake of the world.
56:12
So can you just,
56:15
um, talk a little bit about
56:17
that future part of the
56:20
title of your book, the once and future
56:23
church? How do you see the parish as
56:26
offering that life giving response to the needs of the
56:29
world?
56:31
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Well, I do feel that was very moving
56:34
what you said, and I think a lot of people would
56:37
resonate with you. I think a lot of people have,
56:40
or priests have become quite tired
56:43
and weary and discouraged.
56:46
And our, uh, parishes in many places do
56:48
need reviving.
56:51
But I think they do speak to the moment.
56:54
I mean, we've already spoken about mental health. We've already
56:57
spoken about food banks and debt
57:00
relief. All the things that work with the
57:03
homeless or the social benefit.
57:06
Um, I think the sense that they're a kind
57:09
of laboratory for a different kind of
57:12
selfhood, a different way
57:14
existing in relation,
57:18
is really important. And I think,
57:21
I mean, the lockdown, um, and
57:24
Covid led to a great
57:26
deal of homework. But I
57:29
think the future lies very much, if only
57:32
because of the ecological emergence in people
57:35
living a more sustainable
57:38
life where their work
57:41
and their life and their school
57:44
are, uh, more integrated. I think that's the way
57:47
things are going. I mean, people, young people, are moving
57:50
out of our cities in my country just because they can't afford to live
57:53
in.
57:53
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, that's true.
57:54
>> Canon Allison Milbank: So I think big chain
57:57
stalls in big out of town shopping centres
58:00
are beginning to close as, ah,
58:02
shopping goes online. Whereas small
58:05
shops to do with local provenance are, ah,
58:08
doing better, if not. So I think the
58:11
future, uh, oddly, is
58:14
that we will be living more
58:16
locally. But I think that that is of
58:19
such an estimate of benefit to us that
58:23
it's good, even if it is
58:25
for lots of negative reasons, that we're doing
58:28
it. Um, but I think we also.
58:31
We talked about the alienation of
58:34
people, their sense of atomization.
58:37
And I think living in the
58:39
secular is not where
58:42
anybody really wants to be.
58:45
Even if they don't want to embrace christian faith. They want
58:48
to inhabit a kind of
58:50
re enchanted world
58:54
where space becomes place,
58:57
where time becomes gift,
59:00
not just something you're always running away.
59:03
Um, a place where we can be physically present
59:07
to each other and actually
59:09
begin to imagine a just,
59:12
uh, more loving world. And I think
59:15
parrish has enormous potential
59:18
for that. And I think, too, I
59:21
am very
59:23
ecologically,
59:26
um,
59:28
interested. My own church
59:30
sees ecology as a matter of
59:33
targets. You know, churches have got to become
59:36
carbon neutral by making
59:39
hardly any. You know, they put their boiler on once a week, you
59:41
know. Um, but I do think that the.
59:44
If we are to save the world. It will come out of that kind
59:47
of parochial thinking whereby
59:50
you value local
59:53
plants, you want to save things because
59:56
they're part of where you live. And so it comes
59:59
out of a positive kind of apprehension
1:00:02
rather than a kind of negative one. Again, it's like
1:00:04
mission. I'm saying it should come out of something
1:00:07
positive rather than out of lack,
1:00:10
which is how we get the managerialism. So I
1:00:12
think the parish is a place of reordering
1:00:15
imagination, a place of living
1:00:18
more sustainably, a place of living in
1:00:21
relation.
1:00:22
Um, and I think if
1:00:25
the church is to survive, even the
1:00:28
vulnerability of the modern
1:00:30
parish is an opportunity,
1:00:33
because it forces you to make
1:00:35
relationships with the local mosque, with
1:00:38
the trade unions, with the co op, with
1:00:41
anything that's going on locally, because
1:00:44
alone, you can't do it. And too often, because
1:00:47
of the church's power. In the past, we felt
1:00:50
that we can do everything and we can't. So I think
1:00:53
even that vulnerability and
1:00:55
precariousness is a gift
1:00:59
that I think the parish can offer,
1:01:02
um, uh, its problems.
1:01:05
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think that's beautifully said
1:01:08
and very true. I mean, it is,
1:01:11
uh, a point of contact with
1:01:14
a, uh, whole world that's feeling quite
1:01:17
vulnerable and shaken up by
1:01:20
the various transitions that we're living through.
1:01:22
And we can very much come
1:01:25
alongside,
1:01:27
um, in that shaking
1:01:30
up. We can offer
1:01:33
a very life giving alternative and
1:01:36
a witness to the things that are true about
1:01:39
our human lives, which is that,
1:01:41
like, we are integrated. Like, there
1:01:44
is no way, biologically of being alive
1:01:47
without being in a, um,
1:01:50
pretty intimate relationship with the
1:01:53
earth and air and nutrients and
1:01:56
other bodies around you. And,
1:01:58
um, we've tried to live apart from that
1:02:01
truth, very
1:02:03
unsuccessfully.
1:02:05
Um, so,
1:02:07
yeah, there's a
1:02:10
calling back to central truths that
1:02:13
are very much embodied in the life of the
1:02:16
parish. Well, let's
1:02:19
take a break and, uh,
1:02:22
uh, the portion of our podcast. On that
1:02:25
note, we'll come back for some closing
1:02:28
questions in a moment.
1:02:34
Welcome back to the Future Christian
1:02:37
podcast. And, uh, we're
1:02:40
here for some closing questions
1:02:42
as we finish today's conversation. Now,
1:02:45
Allison, we always tell our guests that,
1:02:48
uh, these closing questions can be
1:02:51
taken as seriously or not as
1:02:54
you want. Um, it's up to you.
1:02:56
Um, but
1:03:00
have, uh, some fun with them.
1:03:03
If you were pope for a day,
1:03:06
Alison, what would that day look like?
1:03:10
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Gosh, I don't think I'd make any pronouncements.
1:03:13
I think I just sit in my
1:03:16
cathedra. I'm not quite sure where Pope Francis
1:03:19
cathedra is, because St. Peter's is a basilica.
1:03:22
But anyway, I'd sit there and, and I just let people come and ask me
1:03:25
questions. And, uh, I hope that that would give an example as
1:03:28
what I think church leaders should spend their time doing.
1:03:32
It's what the coptic pope does once a
1:03:35
week. When I visited the cops, he just sits in his
1:03:38
seat and people come and talk to him.
1:03:39
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, that's lovely. Yeah. I,
1:03:42
uh, think, uh, being wary of
1:03:45
pronouncements is a
1:03:48
good rule of thumb for that day. You probably have
1:03:51
some pretty interesting conversations
1:03:55
if you, uh, could
1:03:57
talk with a theologian or historical
1:04:00
christian figure, bring them back to life
1:04:02
to have some conversation. Who would you
1:04:05
want to meet?
1:04:08
>> Canon Allison Milbank: I'd like to meet Dionysus the
1:04:11
areopagite, or as he's called nowadays,
1:04:14
Dionysus the pseudo
1:04:16
areopagite. He's named after, uh,
1:04:18
St. Paul's athenian convert, but he was probably
1:04:21
a 6th century syrian theologian. He's
1:04:24
really, really influential. His mystical theology
1:04:27
is behind a lot of the kind of
1:04:29
mysticism in the church, but nobody knows
1:04:32
who he is, um, or anything
1:04:35
about him. And yet he's one of the most captivating,
1:04:38
imaginative theologians that there is.
1:04:41
So I'd like to know who he really was, what country he
1:04:44
came from.
1:04:45
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, uh, that's a unique
1:04:48
answer, and I think you're right. Lots of people are
1:04:51
not going to know anything about
1:04:54
him.
1:04:55
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Mystical theology is a good read. It's very short.
1:04:58
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, that's a good plug.
1:05:01
Thank you. What will history
1:05:03
remember from our current time and place?
1:05:07
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Oh, dear. I'm going to be a bit negative. Sorry.
1:05:10
>> Martha Tatarnic: That's okay.
1:05:11
>> Canon Allison Milbank: I think decadence, uh, I think
1:05:14
the loss of faith in the church is a
1:05:17
sign of decadence. Um, I think we've got
1:05:20
a complete loss of nerve in church leadership
1:05:23
in government, which has also become
1:05:26
just management, and that's true throughout the
1:05:29
world. Uh, we've got a loss of trust
1:05:32
in institutions which themselves have lost
1:05:35
a sense of the common good. I'm a great believer in the
1:05:38
common good, and we've got a liberalism which I think
1:05:40
is completely illiberal in its operation.
1:05:43
So I think people will look
1:05:46
back and think we were bonkers, to be quite honest.
1:05:49
I don't want to get into lots of, uh, you
1:05:52
know, sort of woke, anti woke kind of
1:05:55
discussions, but I just think people will think
1:05:58
that the way we went about things, Washington.
1:06:00
Really bizarre.
1:06:02
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. What were they thinking?
1:06:06
So what are your hopes for the future of
1:06:09
Christianity?
1:06:11
>> Canon Allison Milbank: I just take we keep faithful
1:06:14
m that we hold to our gospel,
1:06:17
to our traditions, our, uh, practices, however
1:06:20
powerless we become. But I think we said at the beginning, I think
1:06:23
the tide is turning. I think
1:06:26
new movements often begin
1:06:29
with elites. And we're seeing novelists,
1:06:32
musicians,
1:06:34
um, sort of celebrated
1:06:37
people turning back to face. And
1:06:40
I think that will be the beginning of what I hope
1:06:43
will be a return
1:06:46
by more people.
1:06:49
Um, I do think Generation Z is less
1:06:51
hostile. And, and in York,
1:06:54
for example, I discovered a large number of
1:06:57
young people are going to
1:07:00
churches in the centre of town where they just use the book
1:07:03
of common prayer, for example.
1:07:06
Um, I'm not saying that's the only worship that
1:07:09
has value, but I think it's interesting
1:07:11
that, um, you know, that there are
1:07:14
people looking for
1:07:17
beauty and depth and
1:07:19
meaning in faith. Mhm.
1:07:22
And I have great hope. I
1:07:25
don't think it will hurt us to be
1:07:27
precarious and vulnerable. I hope
1:07:30
just make us more faithful.
1:07:32
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah.
1:07:35
I think that if faithfulness can be an outcome
1:07:38
of that vulnerability, that's a pretty great
1:07:40
thing. Where can people
1:07:43
find more about you,
1:07:46
Alison?
1:07:46
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Well, I don't do social media.
1:07:49
You don't do it?
1:07:51
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay.
1:07:51
>> Canon Allison Milbank: No. Even the Wikipedia page. Somebody once did one about
1:07:54
me, but I think it's really out of date. The books, I
1:07:57
suppose. My monograph, my most
1:08:00
recent monograph, God and the Gothic,
1:08:02
um, you know, my
1:08:05
articles, I've written on imaginative
1:08:08
apologetics, all sorts of things. So
1:08:11
there's quite a lot out there.
1:08:13
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. So lots to engage more and
1:08:16
read more, but they're, uh, not going to find you
1:08:18
on TikTok.
1:08:26
Well, thank you so much for this
1:08:28
conversation today. Thank you for your
1:08:31
extraordinary work. Thank you,
1:08:34
um, for engaging
1:08:37
this topic with our listeners. Very, very
1:08:40
grateful. We always end our podcasts with a
1:08:43
word of peace. So the peace of
1:08:46
God be with.
1:08:46
>> Canon Allison Milbank: You, Alison, and also with
1:08:49
you.
1:08:50
>> Martha Tatarnic: Thank you.
1:08:53
>> Paul: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast.
1:08:56
To learn more about Loren or the podcast,
1:08:58
visit future dash christian.com.
1:09:01
one more thing before you go. Do us a
1:09:04
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1:09:07
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1:09:16
The Future Christian podcast is a production of torn
1:09:18
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1:09:21
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1:09:24
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1:09:26
Thanks and go in peace.
1:09:30
Don't shake it with me.
1:09:33
Shake it with me.
1:09:36
>> Martha Tatarnic: Shake it with me.
1:09:39
>> Canon Allison Milbank: Close.