Latest / Giving Pain Purpose with Lyndsay Soprano / When Divorce is a Form of Abuse with Lisa Johnson + Chris Barry
Transcript
- Lyndsay Soprano (00:02) This is Giving Pain Purpose, where we talk about the game of living in and with chronic pain and trauma. Getting to the heart of how to heal. I'm your host, Lyndsay Soprano. On this show, I sit with the warriors, loved ones, doctors, holistic practitioners, and those who walked through hell and want their voices heard. It's messy, heartbreaking, occasionally depraved, but always human. It's where relentless healing, intense empathy, and dark humor beautifully collide. Because sometimes laughing through the wreckage is the only lifeline. You don't have to heal quietly and you don't have to fight alone. Before I was born, my 2B stepmother already hated me. It's super cliche. My birth father was sleeping with his younger secretary, telling her he wasn't stuping my mom anymore. And whoopsie, my mom got pregnant with me. So he kept his secretary a secret and clearly was keeping my mother a secret from her as well. And it wasn't until I was about two and a half years old when my dad finally asked for a divorce. And it was, of course, my mom's fault, and it was also, of course, my dad's fault. And the child is stuck in the middle always. And as I've gotten older, I still don't fully know the truth of it all. And I find that there are days where I wish I had the actual factual story of what happened between them. But I can only tell you what I know to be true. And that's my narrative and my story and my lived experiences. And my stepmom and my dad's abuse riddled my life up until 2008 when I finally said, Fuck this abuse. I'm out. And I was 30 years old. And the effects of their behavior, though, are still part of my story and a huge part of my trauma for a multitude of reasons. And what's so sad is my story is not that abnormal. It's not special. It's not unheard of, but it is one that led to some horribly traumatic things that happened to me because the adults in the situation handled their child dreadfully wrong. And it is only recently that I have discovered the long-term effects of what happened to me and my guests today are two people I wish had been around. For my parents, stepparents, and me so many years ago. A bridge, if you will, not a divider. So without further ado, I'd like to introduce you to my guests today, Lisa Johnson and Chris Sperry. Welcome to Giving Fame Purpose, you two sweeties. Lisa Johnson (02:29) thank you so much, Lyndsay. Chris Barry (02:31) Thanks for having us. Lyndsay Soprano (02:32) Of course, this is gonna be fun today. Lisa and Chris are co-founders, have been there, got out, also called BTGO, if we say that in the episode, so you know what that means. They work with clients facing severe domestic violence cases, specializing in legal abuse and alienation tactics used by ex-partners. They work as certified high-conflict divorce strategists, filling the gap between what attorneys aren't trained to handle and what the therapists don't understand in these complex cases. They are the authors of the books Been There Got Out and their new book, When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You, both of which I have read and you need to as well. Lisa is also a certified domestic violence advocate. After representing herself through dozens of court appearances, her case became legal precedent and her testimony helped pass Connecticut's Jennifer's Law, recognizing coercive control as domestic violence. And Chris has a background in financial planning, negotiation. He specializes in high conflict parenting plans and helping people navigate the financial, legal, and strategic complexities of divorce. There we go, you two. You guys are busy. Chris Barry (03:38) You know, you know, day to day, I'm I'm not that impressed by us day to day, but I am now after hearing that. Lyndsay Soprano (03:46) I mean, right? And that was my shortened version of what I had started with. So today we give both of you guys both a male and female perspective, which I think is super cool. Two strategists who turned lived experiences into a passionate mission to change the world one case at a time. So I'd actually like to start with how you two met in the middle of all of this hecticity in your life and with very different divorces. And then let's kind of take your story and work together from there. Lisa Johnson (04:14) You want to start? Chris Barry (04:15) Yeah, the so the way we like to do this is I'll start and then when I bungle the story somehow Lisa will step in and and take over. Lyndsay Soprano (04:23) Right. Really is, really is. That's exactly right. Chris Barry (04:28) So so we yeah, so I was separated for about eight months. and just at the beginning of what and I thought I was like further along, but it ended up the divorce took three years. So Lisa was with me through a lot of it and I was with her through a lot of her divorce, but we met on match, which didn't exist when we had each entered our marriage, or maybe it had just started or whatever, but but we had never neither of us had ever done any online dating. It was a new thing to us. but We met and we started. I guess I had you know, you you know the butterfly effect, right? That little butterfly flaps its wings in Indonesia and all of a sudden we have a hurricane here in New York. there was one of those type events was I was getting these notifications daily from match every day with all like check out these prospects for you. And I had been through it for months and I was dejected, I wasn't meeting anybody, all that. And I almost deleted the email. That Lisa's profile was in this close. It was like late on a Monday night. And I said, you know, if I'm doing this, I might as well like really do it or it's not gonna pay off. So let me just look at this email. I saw her profile. And my first thought was, my God, it sounded like I could have written that myself. It sounded just like Lisa's gonna take over soon, but I reached out on I think it was that night, right? And we started corresponding through that week and we decided to get together for lunch on Friday. And this is my favorite part. You we we met at this restaurant and I was already there. I was about n eighty or so pounds heavier than I am right now because when I was going through my divorce, my unhealthy outlet was eating. I just ate everything. So Lisa walks in and she's wearing like knee high boots, a skull sweatshirt, like just like really, really funky looking. The hair. She looked at me, I looked at her, we both thought, nah. Lyndsay Soprano (06:29) No way. Yeah, absolutely not. Chris Barry (06:32) But we were there. So let's sit and enjoy lunch anyway. And we w you I think my comment to her was, I have two and a half hours before I have to be at my next appointment. I'll bet we end up using all the time. And we did. And we haven't shut up since. Lyndsay Soprano (06:47) Yes. I love that story. Lisa Johnson (06:50) Yep, yep. So Chris and I met, like you said, we both looked like we Chris is a great I'm a writer. Chris is a great writer also. And his voice really came through in those few nights that we wrote back and forth to each other. And at some point I was like, Well, you know, whatever, let's just see what happens. And we we met, we thought like both of us were like, absolutely not, but we'll sit down. We were talking, talking, talking nonstop. And at some point, even though Chris is super into football, which I have zero interest in, he told me he was in a fraternity. I was like, I never dated a frat boy. While we were talking, I realized because Chris has boundless energy and enthusiasm. So I remember looking across the table and thinking, this is the most bizarre thing ever, but I feel like I'm talking to the male version of me. And so long story short, it's 11 and a half years later and we are still completely in love with each other. Lyndsay Soprano (07:46) I absolutely love that so much. My husband and I are also we are also talkers. He's a talk show host in Los Angeles and he's been on he's been on air for thirty-five years, yapping at people in l Los Angeles morning drive. So between the two of us, we don't shut up either. And we're we actually are starting a podcast together ourselves that's launching in a couple weeks. So we're like, God, just like what I need to do is add another thing onto our list of things to do. But mountains of energy over here, right? Yeah. So what you guys ended up, Miami Dolphins or no Miami Dolphins, frat boy or no frat boy, you guys ended up coming together, having gone through or in the middle of all of these horrific things that had happened with your divorces. And that is what led you guys to start BTGO, right? Been there got out. You guys just like were like water coolering it one day and were like, we need to start something together. Chris Barry (08:37) I I remember this crystal clear. We were in Lisa's kitchen. My divorce was either over or just about to end. And we had educated ourselves on like we had figured out why both of our divorces, now they were very different, as you mentioned earlier. Right. Like in terms of how they played out, what the issues were, but the mi the the dynamic, the personality issues below under the surface causing all the problems were the same core issue. And we had educated ourselves on that. And I remember saying to Lisa in her kitchen. You know, if I knew then what I know now, I could have saved half of the three years my divorce took. I could have saved half of the three hundred thousand dollars it cost and we didn't even go to Lisa Johnson (09:19) So we say more. Chris Barry (09:21) Well now. I agree with that because we've continued to educate ourselves and all that, but we you know, and we just looked at each other and was like, well, we can't like go back and undo our mistakes. But there are other, we also learned that there are many, many other millions of other people going through this same kind of thing. And that our wisdom and knowledge, we always say our wisdom and knowledge that we never wanted, right? that we could help others with it. And that was, it was started as a book project and we ended up writing the book, but that ended up getting delayed for a few years while we started our actual like coaching and all that. And then finally a book publisher came out to us and said, you need to write a book. And we're like, I know. Lyndsay Soprano (10:02) Duh duh. Hello, we already know it. Chris Barry (10:05) Yeah, we've been trying to tell you guys. Lyndsay Soprano (10:08) I love it. Well, okay, so let's get into what you guys do. Because I've read both of your books, one of them been there, got out, which is obviously the name of your organization. And then when your ex turns the kids against you, there are definitely some overlapping stories within both of them. And so I'd like to kind of start, if you don't mind, talking about a bit about narcissism in regards to. The people that you work with. I can identify with narcissistic behavior on so many scales. It's frightening. And after reading your book, I'm like, my gosh, I have like little notes in the margin of like people in my life. It's like I should probably kick these people to the curb too. so if we can talk a little bit about the narcissism and how you guys work with these narcissistic people and how you have to address these kind of disorders, if you will, that these people have. Lisa Johnson (10:58) Okay, well we don't work well we we try not to let them slip slip through, but we don't work with the narcissistic person, we work with the victim or a target. Lyndsay Soprano (11:07) Victim of the target. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you for clarifying that. Yeah. Lisa Johnson (11:10) Yeah, yeah, no problem. So yeah, so I think one thing that many people don't understand is that there's a very big difference between normal divorce and high conflict divorce. And you can't tell the difference right away. Because we always say, and we probably wrote it in the book, that at the beginning everybody's angry, everyone's scorching the earth and saying terrible things to their kids about their ex. But usually after four to six months, things settle down and people say, All right, let's start, you know. Let's start doing what's best for the kids. Let's stop burning through the money. But with a high conflict case with somebody who you're when you have a narcissistic opponent, that person is not interested in settling down and f and doing what's best for the kids or doing what's fair. They want the opposite. They want to keep it going and they have what we call a clinging kind of hatred. And so what they're really interested in doing is continuing to punish you. Their anger does not go away with time. So that's a big difference. And but a lot of professionals working in the divorce space who see normal divorce, like 80-ish percent of the time, think, okay, well, if we're logical, it's gonna follow that typical trajectory and it doesn't. And so these are the cases that often exhaust attorneys because they don't follow that logical script. And so from the very beginning, as early as possible, what Chris and I try to do with people who are entangled with narcissistic personality types is to lower the level of conflict. That person on the other side is they're gonna they're gonna be who they are. They want the conflict, but they do all kinds of things to keep your intention engaged, your negative attention more than your positive attention, because, and I think we said this in the book, once you're out of the relationship physically, they're limited to three ways to still hurt you. Money, The courts and your children. And we know that money and the court go hand in hand, but kids are the most painful and last the longest. So those are the areas that they're gonna keep focusing on. And so understanding that ahead of time and educating our clients is our big, you know, our biggest priority, that that's how you can start realizing that the other side's behavior is very, very predictable and you can alter your own behavior to turn the volume down on their anger and not trigger them by. blaming and accusing and trying to call them out directly because it's just gonna make things worse. Which of course will bleed onto your children. Lyndsay Soprano (13:41) absolutely, please. And I love there's something that you said in your book about like put a muzzle on yourself. Chris Barry (13:48) Got the model, yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (13:50) my God. I love that she's literally holding up a muzzle right now. Cause it's totally true. It's like, and and it was so fascinating talking about the technology piece about it and how, you know, with technology and how it shifts and how we have to like sit on our hands, like how many times you just want to like rip off a terrible text message or rip off that email or you want to. Scream at the kid and call them bad names and do that. And there was something else that you wrote about children about how when you're yelling at them and you're calling or yelling about the spouse and calling them an idiot or calling them what evil or whatever, you're calling that child that they're half of that as well. And that that really hit home for me. And I think that the it for you guys to be able to step in and counsel and coach and help these victims that are going through it can only help with. Big picture with all parties involved. So as we're getting along into all of this, when you're talking about looking for, you talked about about 80%-ish are not high conflict. What are some of the red flags that indicate that your divorce and separation are like falling into the high conflict category? And it's time to sit down with Lisa and Chris. Lisa Johnson (15:03) So and it's it's funny because I I often mention how the first time I even realized that something was off was when I met my divorce attorney and had a consult. And 20 minutes in, he said, yours is gonna be really bad. And I was astonished because I I I really thought that my ex was a good person who had done some bad things. And of course, Eric, my attorney, was right, you know, the divorce dragged out to the maximum. We settled right before the year deadline in my state that you have to go to trial. and my ex did everything that my my attorney expected. So one of the big red flags that your divorce is gonna be high conflict, which my attorney who I interviewed later for our book told me is when somebody has a personality disorder and or an active addiction, their judgment is impaired. And so they're not even thinking in their own best interest. And so again, you can't negotiate reasonably with someone who's again, they're they're not thinking about the consequences of your their your their own actions. They're furious and they just want to punish. So that indicates usually that you're gonna have a very, very difficult situation. Another thing which we see constantly, well, we know that financial abuse is present in 99% of these kinds of cases. And so somebody who feels entitled to the money, I often say they think what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine too. So they feel like, They should be able to hide assets that because maybe they were the one earning more money or being the sole brand winner that you deserve nothing and everything is theirs. And so they end up slowing down what's called the discovery process or the disclosure process of divorce, where you're basically supposed to financially undress and show what you have so that there can be some kind of equitable distribution. These people do not cooperate. They drag out. You know, not they won they won't submit their financials. They drag things out to delay, delay, delay. And it costs a lot of money to keep chasing after the financial information. So you know, that's that's a big problem too. And then what I mentioned earlier is anger that doesn't subside. Like most people say, they're gonna settle down, you know, give it some time. It just doesn't happen. Another really surprising thing that my attorney told me. was when it's a domestic violence case. And I thought that he meant, it's because the abuser makes things difficult. And that's true, but it's actually the opposite. It's the victim makes things difficult because we have this thing that I guess Chris and I coined like this toxic hopefulness where they keep thinking, maybe things are gonna get better, or they start they keep listening to their partner or ex because they are convinced that Maybe, you know, I'll do everything I can to keep it together. That was my issue. and it slows the process down. And so when lawyers have to stop and start, it costs a lot of money and can be very, very frustrating. So those are just like a handful of of some of those indicators of high confidence. Chris Barry (18:07) And Lisa's lawyer was wonderful. Not an expert in this necess you know, necessarily this type of case, but a wonderful, wonderful lawyer. And his comment li after Lisa's divorce was over was, do not send me any of your clients. Lisa Johnson (18:21) Yes. Seriously. Lyndsay Soprano (18:27) That's funny. I don't want your clients. Thank you. And we laugh, but at the same time, it's like, God, how terrible to even have to feel that way. I had my my divorce wasn't high conflict. It was, it was before the divorce that was high conflict. So if I was fortunate enough that I was able to get out of a very abusive situation, but there was still conflict after the divorce was final. Like he kept coming back and like I would get text messages. I'm right behind you. I'm like, What in the hell? Like so I lived in a constant state of fear all of the time. And so I was afraid to leave him. I was afraid to, you know, I did things like in the middle of the night once he would pass out. He was an addict. He would pass out and I was like, okay, I got the dogs. I would re I would reverse the doorknobs and sleep in another room and like have like and turn the doorknob so I could lock myself in my bedroom until I finally had the like strength and the wit about me to get out of there. And I was the breadwinner. I didn't care. I was like, you can take every single thing in this house. I don't care. Take it all. I don't care. I just want my dogs. My dog's in my computer and I'm good to go, you know? Cause they ask that horrible question. Well, why didn't you just leave? It's like, my God, I want to like kick you in the dick for saying something like that. Like until you're in that position, you have no idea, especially when children are involved. And I was fortunate enough to not have children with this person. Thank the Lord on high for unanswered prayers. but man man, it's a high conflict, is it's it's so challenging. And so when we talk about domestic abuse and domestic violence. When you're talking about the the person's actually the person that's being abused and getting out of that situation. How do they do they they come to you and they how are they introduced to you? They come and they they find you. How do people find you? Because I wouldn't have thought to go, I need to find somebody in between a therapist and in between an attorney. Like I wouldn't have thought about Lisa Johnson (20:17) Nobody knows that. Lyndsay Soprano (20:19) right. That's why I read both of your books. Cause it was so, it was so interesting to me because I hadn't A thought about that before or heard of it before. So did you talk a little bit about that? Because I think that's a very important part of what we're talking about here today, too. Lisa Johnson (20:33) Yeah, so I think a lot of people find us on social media. People also are starting to find us through AI. And a lot of therapists recommend us too. Some lawyers do as well, because our clients tend to be the neediest types that nobody knows what to do with because they they're terrified and they ask a lot of questions and lawyers are like, this is not my job to teach you how to communicate with your your ex. So go talk to Chris and Lisa and they'll help you with that. That's not my job. I don't want to be your babysitter. Chris Barry (21:05) These are the cases that exhaust attorneys because their normal strategies don't work and they don't understand why. So they even good attorneys are not as effective as they might be if they understood these issues and they they get exhausted and that's when they stop responding and they just lose energy for your case. And and so many people reach out to us and say, I need attorney that understands narcissism. We're like, okay, that's aspirationally, sure. But they're few and far between. You're better off getting a really good attorney who will involve you as a partner and you have strategic oversight. You have more of a leadership role with your case. We always say run it like a business. So if your attorney will partner with you like that, it can work just fine. But you need to have a bigger role and not just get pulled along with the current of what they usually do. Right. Lisa Johnson (21:55) Like it's more, it's more collaborating. And I was gonna say also that, you know, the people in this situation are not the type where a friend will say, I know been there, got out, they're great, like get a hold of them because they're cagey and they don't trust anybody because of their own experience. So a lot of people will say when we first meet them, I've been binging on your podcast and my gosh, you know my life, or I've been following you for years on Instagram or a while, and you you totally get it. And so It it takes time. It's almost like earning trust from a stranger. And because we do so much content, I mean, we have hundreds of podcast episodes just from us doing our own, not including appearing on others, that people are like, Okay, I see their faces, like I hear their voices. So they have an opportunity to get to know us. So a lot of times people be like, You've been in my living room for a while. So I feel like I already know you. Lyndsay Soprano (22:49) And you guys are very incredibly approachable. you know, I I think that my my husband is also an attorney. And so we have he he has no patience for anything. And so I totally and completely like, I can see where like even our dynamic with me, I'm an empath, I cry all the time, I also live in chronic pain, so that's part of it. But like he's great with me, but if there was a lot of me, I think he would blow his brains out. You know what I mean? He'd just be like, I don't have the capability to handle this amount of emotion and turmoil and trauma and all of that. I need the facts. And I was laughing about how you said, don't use, don't come in with a big binder. And in my head, I'm like, I'm such an organized freak. I'm like, I totally would have come in with a big binder. Lisa Johnson (23:34) Yeah. Well most people think that's the right thing to do. Lyndsay Soprano (23:37) Yeah. So let's get into a little bit about how you help coach these people. Is coaching the right word for this, by the way? Or is it Lisa Johnson (23:45) We call it like we strategy we call it strategy sessions. So we Lyndsay Soprano (23:49) Okay, okay. Lisa Johnson (23:52) Yeah, we strategize. But I mean it obviously involves coaching. I I like to say that I'm a a cheerleader and a gnat. Lyndsay Soprano (24:00) I love that. Ooh, I like that. The NAG part specifically. Yeah. Lisa Johnson (24:04) Yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (24:05) So can you get into kind of a little bit about the steps that you guys take with your clients that come aboard so they aren't scared of what this might look like for them? Lisa Johnson (24:14) Yeah, well, I think when we first meet people, they basically set up an initial free Zoom meeting that's about half an hour where we find out like their biggest concern and where they are in the process. So we listen to them very actively and come up with a set of what we call priorities, like ways that we can help them. And there's usually maybe five or six or or less general ones. they include teaching strategic communication. proper presentation to a judge or custody evaluators or whoever, how to mediate effectively, how to take strategic oversight of your case. The parenting plan is a big thing. Obviously that's Chris's superpower. what am I forgetting, Chris? all the alienation stuff, like how to deal with that. Chris Barry (24:59) And documenting your case. Lisa Johnson (25:01) Targeted documentation. Yeah. So then and then we get into a little a little more detail. So we kind of narrow down on what are the things that we would work on, but we always actually start sessions with like, all right, what are you losing the most sleep over? And people sometimes come in with a whole bunch of issues and questions like, okay, I've got my list. And other people will be like, I don't know where to start. Like, I'm gonna meet a custody evaluator next week. I'm like, okay, great. I've got my curriculum. I mean, my master's is in education. So and I always loved lesson planning. So We have loads of ideas, but it's it's very customized to that person's situation. and then as we work together, it's you know, if they wanna go into the background, which some of our clients will spend hours and hours doing, that's fine. but other people are like, let's get right to it. Like start teaching me how to be a good witness or how do I negotiate with a narcissist? Like, what do I do? I've got mediation coming up and you know, or like I wanna start putting the basics of a parenting plan together so I can start. Proposing something, but I already know it's not I'm not really ready yet. And we do a lot of what we call advance orientation. This concept was come up by a man named Dr. Benjamin Garber, who's a psychologist, who actually asked us to write a chapter of his book on the topic that's being published for the by the Bar Association next year. And it basically is the idea that when people are going into the family court system, when you educate them on what to expect. It reduces their level of fear and they do better. So that's that's so much of what we do because nobody's done this before most of the time. Nobody knows what to expect. And don't really know who to ask because again, like therapists don't know the family court system and lawyers are like, I don't have time to like get into all this with you most of the time. So that's that's where we kind of bridge that gap too. Chris Barry (26:49) It it's astonishing, really, at the end of the day, how much comes down to communication. It ties to everything. Your communication with your ex can be evidence for your court case. It can resolve problems occasionally. you can paint them into a corner. You it for your own mental health and your recovery if you're in an abusive relationship, they're not gonna change. They're like I had for years, I would get a pit in my stomach. When I saw that there was a message from my ex, I'm like, what fresh hell is this? You know, it was just dread, constant dread, right? But so she hasn't changed. She's as angry as she's ever been. And I've been out for 12 years. I've changed. I don't get the pit in my stomach anymore because I I've mentally declawed her. She she can't but that that took work. That took, you know, it took a lot and it took time. But communications are a great way to make inroads. Lisa Johnson (27:43) What we do probably more than anything. We have a course called How to Communicate with Your Ex without destroying your case or losing your mind. Because that is the number one thing that gets people years out of the relationship that they're still like, my gosh, what am what's gonna happen? I'm gonna get in trouble. My ex is gonna take the kids away, something with money. Like, so getting them to learn how to turn that power dynamic around through communication is so empowering without using AI. So AI is a tool. But AI, we always say, does not cure PTSD and it doesn't get to the heart of that dynamic that you haven't addressed. So you can throw out all kinds of words and have AI agents talking to each other, but it's not actually like dealing with the issue. So getting to the heart of that is what we do with our clients. And it is so rewarding to see them become from your turn from a puddle into a ninja where they their shoulders lower, they start breathing, they look younger and healthier and happier and just like, see. Lyndsay Soprano (28:41) I told you this. I told you so. Chris Barry (28:45) Well at least it's very good at saying I told you. Lisa Johnson (28:48) Well no, I I don't see I told you so, Chris. I go, see? See? Yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (28:55) I know. I think that's kind of our job though in life that we're like, I don't know what to tell you. I'm right all the time. I'm always right, even if I'm wrong. That's one of my favorite lines, too, in our household. So when, you know, when you're coming out, when you're in the middle of the thick of things, you're emotionally drained, you're physically drained, you're all these things. You're not taking care of yourself as well as you should have been in the first place. Because I know for me, I'm a people pleaser, I'm an empath, I'm always the bottom of. Person on the list that I take care of. Everybody else is done. I'm completely drained. And then I'm like, I've got this much time for me. And I a takeaway that I got from your book, just so you know from my perspective, is that you really encourage the people that you work with to address themselves as well. And I was listening to an episode of yours in regards to therapy. And it was, it was interesting. I don't remember what the gal's name was that you guys were talking about or talking to. and she was talking about when. mental health and when therapeutic when therapy records can come into things and when what k types of information could be subpoenaed and pulled into your Yes. Lisa Johnson (30:01) Yeah, Lisa Ziderman. Lyndsay Soprano (30:03) Yes it is yes that's right she said the two Lisas. That's what she had said. Yep, yep. Lisa Johnson (30:06) Yeah, yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (30:08) Yeah, she was great. I really enjoyed that episode by the way. So with that, when you talk about mental health and you talk about also like supervised visitation, all the things that I've learned in your books. You would think that people are frightened because they're like, Well, I have I'm on anti-anxiety medication. I'm on this for I have bipolar and they're concerned about they're gonna not be able to get custody of their children because of these issues. And so can you speak to the mental health side of things and how important that piece of the pie is? Because I think people would be I know I would be worried as a mother or a father if I was on certain medications and would be like, Maybe I have to get off of them, or maybe I don't need to go to therapy anymore. I would be more fearful of doing that and it's quite the opposite. Lisa Johnson (30:51) Yeah. So let's talk about psych evaluations. So that's something that's often ordered in a custody battle where it's like both people are gonna get mental health out evaluations and usually the victim is like, they're gonna find out that my ex is a narcissist and I'm gonna get more custody, or they get really scared, like I'm gonna get in all this trouble because I've been on medication or, you know, I've had a drinking issue or whatever. The thing is that what it really boils down to is how does whatever it is your issue is. How does it affect your parenting? So a diagnosis of anything is not gonna make a difference unless somebody can show the visible impact on your children. If let's say your ex was diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder during a custody evaluation, they're protected with the Americans with Disabilities Act. So that's that doesn't mean that they're gonna lose their children or that they would be on supervised visitation. However, if their behavior showed like extreme neg negligence or something like that, which is, I mean, I won't even get into like the terrible things that people do, but you can imagine that makes an impact on custody. And often, you know, we talk about how people are affected by this type of str stress. We have we have a number of clients who have had addictions or are struggled with alcohol or substance use. And they think, this is going to come out. Like I'm really, really scared that my ex's attorney is going to make me look bad and we say, okay, so first of all, it's important that you acknowledge that yes, this happened or I did have this problem. But what you can do, which can make you look even better than a person without these issues, is to talk about what you've done to work on yourself. Because the court wants to see that people take of accountability and are like, I'm trying really hard. Like it's almost as though you're you're really not taking parenting for granted. You're, you're, you're making an effort to be a better parent. So you can look like a superstar, I mean, by, you know, actually doing the work, rather than thinking, this is gonna be used against me. Like we've had a number of clients, again, who have done very, very well in court who were terrified that their mental health would be weaponized against them. Chris Barry (33:04) It's not for lack of trying. The other side does try. They will throw everything against the wall just to see what sticks. They'll make every accusation. But I think a lot of people walk into this with the idea that, you know, my ex my ex was abusive, whether it's physically or emotionally, in whatever way. And as soon as I demonstrate that, I'm gonna like win. But judges don't award custody to the nicer person, right? They they award custody kind of default with to a fifty-fifty. And and just kind of think about what would be best, this is what they're supposed to do, what would be best for the kids. So when if you go in, you know, screaming, my ex did this to me, did that to me, did this other thing to me, that's probably gonna land flat because it's not talking about the children. Yeah. So it's really important to understand how these judgments are made and you know, tune your your narrative and your evidence and everything to that, not You know, victimhood. Lisa Johnson (34:05) Right. So be so that's why it's so important before going into court or before some kind of evaluator or evaluation, knowing what to expect, what kinds of questions you're going to be asked, and how to answer them in a way that you're not focusing on your ex's bad behavior, but you're focusing on yourself and how good you are as a parent. And that's what a lot of people make mistakes with, because they come in with those binders of like, look how terrible my ex is without realizing you're actually jeopardizing your custody by going going in like with that kind of argument. Chris Chris always he came Chris is great with associations and quotes and he's he came up with this quote that I love called if you present as mama bear, you're gonna get bitten by the system. Lyndsay Soprano (34:46) Yeah. Well, for sure. Because I mean, we want to be protective of our children. I mean, ultimately I would I would hope so. And I mean, I would totally be the big binder person. I swear. I'm like in my brain, I would like I'd be printing out every email, I'd be screenshotting every text message, you know, the whole thing because not because I want to get back at the person, but because I want to make sure I can hold on to my baby. And you know, or whatever it is that we're trying to hold on to, my home, my you know, my cars, my livelihood, whatever it might be, how can I make this guy look like a complete and utter piece of shit and unfortunately end up looking like, you know, this fic dictive bitch. Yeah to put it very eloquently. Lisa Johnson (35:25) Yeah. I mean it's very expensive though when you don't know the factors that the court's actually looking at. And that's why Chris and I teach like targeted documentations. We go through like here's the things that matter. So let's like throw away all not throw away, put it aside. All that other stuff, because if you give all of that to your lawyer, you're gonna be spending tons and tons of money for them to read through things that don't really have merit in this particular c situation. So yes. Like I'm glad that you have that documentation, but it's not appropriate unless you want to just burn through money to have somebody read it and be like, this is useless. This is useless for the case. Because the lawyer's job obviously is to translate your case in the law. So we always say we want our clients to be the teachers' pets for their attorneys because the attorney's like, Great, you make my job so easy. You're so organized. I can just go in there, do what I have to do and get out of there. And you're not like calling me all the time and you know, just wasting, wasting everyone's energy. Like we can move it along and I can go on to the next Chris Barry (36:23) Well, and think about also what what you you just said in terms of like you were lining up all your evidence that your ex was a jerk, right? Well, the judge is thinking, how are these two going to work together as co parents when I release them into the wild with a parenting plan? And they want to see cooperation. May they know we're not like very fond of each other at the moment. We're getting divorced, right? But they want to see that there's gonna be cooperation. And when somebody's going, they're a monster, we need to save our children from like judge, you need to save our children from that horrible person. The judge is thinking, like you said, vindictive bitter, right? Not I'm looking forward to a day when we can get along better and co parent peacefully. Lisa Johnson (37:12) Even if that's never gonna happen, right. You you s you still there's still these children who are half of each of you and are gonna grow up after eighteen. So what is which parent or which parent is the one who's likelier to be more stable and cooperative? Lyndsay Soprano (37:29) That's tough. I have I call them my nieces, but they it's a long story as to why I do. and both of their parents basically suck. And it it's such a challenge because I've they they never were really married and they don't talk to each other and they haven't. They use the girls to talk to each other, which is totally ridiculous. They're not even 18 yet. So they've been in this tumultuous relationship for their entire since basically since before they were even born. And so I I just I feel so bad for these kids because they they both are just like trying to thrive and survive at such a very young age with nobody having any give a shit about how they're actually doing. And it just the whole thing just makes me incredibly sad. And so I know that you guys also help coach your client strategize, excuse me, strategize with your clients in regards to like, How can you handle your children through this process as well? Can you speak to that a little bit? Because I know and I know that's a big question with a lot of different answers that there could be in that, but just at a high level, what we can speak to about like, okay, this is what we need to be, this is what you need to be considering in regards to your children's, their safety, their trust and their well-being during this process. Lisa Johnson (38:44) Right, I'll I'll see, I'll start a little and Chris just interrupt me anytime because I can go on and on about this one. I think the first thing that a lot of people need to be corrected on is that the courts separate domestic violence from child custody. And a lot of people we meet, because all of our clients have been dealing with domestic violence, is they'll say, This person was so horrible to me that they I don't understand why they would get any custody or that I should have primary custody. And so it Really it's really difficult, but it's better for them to hear it from us first, is like to explain the again those child custody best interest factors as well as something called the alienation factors. So those are the factors that courts look at to see if someone is undermining a child's relationship with the other parent. And many people inadvertently are doing unconscious alienating behaviors because they they again are thinking, I'm just protecting my child, I'm keeping them safe. So for example. One thing that we've had to correct people a lot on is when the child goes to the other parent's house, they'll call up and be like, Are you okay? Are you okay? That's that's basically planting a message into a child's head that they're not safe. And they're picking up on your energy when you do things like that. And so that's a big no-no. So things like that, a lot of times like our clients are just like, shoot, you know, I've been doing these things. So it's helpful for us to protect. We say we don't want you to have anything used against you. Another thing, I have a sick child. So my my kid's in bed and and now it's my ex's parenting time and they want to take the kid, but the kid is sick. I'm gonna keep the kid with me until the kid feels better. You cannot do that. You could get slapped with a contempt case because if the kid, and this is from interviewing an attorney who clarified things, if the kid is capable of physically getting out of bed and walking to the door, even though, yes, obviously it's like can't you just leave the kid in bed? No, if your ex wants their parenting time, the court wants each parent to have the right to show that they have an ability to take care of a sick child. It's not just one parent's purview, like, well, I'm the best one at that. Cause then that undermines that other parents' ability to even try. Chris Barry (40:57) That really came to a head during COVID. We saw that a lot in COVID. Lyndsay Soprano (41:01) wow, yeah, I would think so. Lisa Johnson (41:03) Yeah. So honoring someone's parenting time and going through those factors with people is is really important. The other thing is many people say, well, I never bad mouth my ex to my child. Yeah. Okay. Most of us really don't. However, one thing that I learned is that many of us don't do it within earshot. But from talking with this woman, Katie, who has a company called the Single Mama Club, and she's in the UK. She said that when she was taking a parenting class as part of the requirements for getting divorced in the UK, she learned that she was doing things, some things wrong, and she was like embarrassed and she thought, I better share this information. So she said, it's not just earshot, it's eye shot. So let's say you're at your kids' birthday party or somebody's birthday party and the friends are there and your kids can't hear you, but they could see you from a distance and you're talking with other parents and you're just gesticulating. They know when you're talking about your ex, their other parents. So you don't just wanna be out of earshot, you wanna be out of eye shot. Because again, like we said earlier, those kids are half of that other person. And so when they feel like you hate their other parent, it also puts them in all kinds of what's called loyalty conflicts. And they they love both of you most of the time. I mean, only kids who are abused still love the abusive parent. So it's very, very tricky. And you don't wanna you don't wanna put your kid in a position where they're they don't know what to do and instead they're They're just working on trying to keep you happy and trying to keep their other parent happy and becoming a people pleaser because their feelings don't matter. So it's a huge topic, but those are just like a couple little things is to learn how to keep yourself in check and also to realize the huge impact even your body language can have on your child. Chris Barry (42:48) One one of the things that just this is just personal ex I am not a child development expert by any means other than raising two boys. Like that's the ex I know how exactly how to raise those two boys. But when when we were going through it, they knew that it was like they had witnessed the conflict before we separated, right? So there was always there was attention, they were aware of it and all that. But I my messaging to them and and it still is to this day, I mean it doesn't come up much, but I would talk about the four of us being like four dots, the corners of a square. And we each had lines between us, right? Those represent the relationship. So I had a relationship with mom and both of my boys. And each boy had a relationship with the other one and both parents, you know, et cetera. You could see it. So I said the line that's broken is between me and mom. Right. I totally support your relationship with mom, both of you. And you know, any, you know, that's awesome. It's my relationship with mom is broken. Everything else can is fine. So I used to put it that way. it just to make it clear that I had no ill will or resent there they had no problem from coming from me for having a great relationship with their mom. Lisa Johnson (44:02) You know, this morning actually, Chris, I haven't even told you this. My son and I are in a networking group together, a business networking group. He's 26. And he was talking about something and he's like, Yeah, you know, for example, like when I get married, it'll be really weird. Like if you and dad were both there. And I just told him, I was like, Okay, I just want to tell you, Izzy, that no matter what, like you are allowed to invite both of us to the wedding and you don't need to worry about whatever, like and I'm thinking in my head, I would sit at the same table as my ex. I would even dance with my ex if I had to, but I don't want our our children to feel like they have to worry about my feelings at their own significant milestone events. Chris Barry (44:47) I have a real real life experience just from this earlier this year as my older son graduated from college and his mom and I sat next to each other. I think it was next to each other, at like a luncheon for the because I went to the same school. So it was like a legacy luncheon. And we sat at the same table. And my son was so happy. I said to him after the fact it was true, I said, you know, that That was that was not bad. I was not acting, it was an enjoyable afternoon. It was no problem at all. And he got so much out of that. Now, that does not mean that the relationship is fixed by any means. Because we had a thing happen after that that she immediately it was a pro it was a problem again. But for that afternoon, my kid got what he needed and and it was not that bad. Lyndsay Soprano (45:37) Yeah, I I never got to experience any of that between my mother and my birth father. I have an amazing stepfather, so I was blessed with that. he's incredible. and I basically owe, I feel, all of me to actually him. How I've turned out and all of the things to my stepdad. I give him a lot of kudos for who I am as a woman and what I've gone through and what I what how what I've achieved in my life and how I feel about the world. I just I'm I'm a little jealous. I'm not kidding. Like it's like 'cause they're by I mean, they could not even be in the same, like it felt like they couldn't even be in the same hemisphere. And they was always the the your mom this, your mom that, your dad this, your dad that. And I'm the you know, the only child, and I'm just sitting there going, Okay, well, here I am. And I there was this place. My dad would my dad was such a flake sometimes too. There was a there we had a piano in our living room and there was a window in front of it. And I remember it like it was yesterday. I was when I was reading your book. There was a lot of things that came back from my childhood. So thank you. I was so I my dad was supposed to show up to pick me up for his quote unquote time with me. And I would always sit at this little window and he lived like seven minutes away. It's not like we had to get on an airplane to come and see me or visit me. And he would just like randomly not show up and would say he didn't remember where I lived. And so then the game would happen with my mom and then the game would happen with my dad. And so it was just, you know, and those things. And you forget that those little things kept happening over and over and over. And you forget how they still actually do affect you. So it is it like I said, I I cried, I yelled at your book, not yelled at your book, but yelled about the book at times. I was just like, my gosh. so how many things that could have gone better for me as a child in this if there wasn't such a self-centered aspect of it on both sides. Not really trying. I know that I think my mom thinks she totally protected me, but I disagree. and my dad for sure did not, or my birth father. and so I I genuinely appreciate the work that you guys do for the people the kids like me and and the the the the spouses as well, you know, the wives and the husbands and such. So do you guys have like a really crazy story about one of your clients that you can share? That just you're like knocked your socks off. Lisa Johnson (47:58) We have so many stories, so many stories. But I think one that like really stands out was one of our clients was an artist and she had her art studio in the house and her her ex would you he used to lay a tripwire on the like somewhere in the doorway, and every time she would go into her her creative studio, something would explode and so she'd get like terrified every time she'd walk into our Chris Barry (48:26) Didn't didn't she say that he put fi like a firecracker would would go off for the tripwire would set up a firecracker? Lisa Johnson (48:32) Yeah, it was like an explosion. Yeah. Yeah. So she got to be like scared of doing her her art from this. Yeah, it was it was crazy. It was really like you wonder like what kinds of people do things like. Lyndsay Soprano (48:49) my gosh. I can't I would be that would be so scary because they're like everywhere you go, you're feeling like something's gonna I mean, they do those jokes on Instagram where a husband's like always playing a prank on their wife. That's totally different. But I feel like I feel like I would be living in constant fear of something exploding every single place I went, a cupboard opening, my starting my car, like, my gosh, how traumatic. Chris Barry (49:13) I I I have one more that's this one's inspirational. Let's close with an inspirational Lyndsay Soprano (49:18) We'll close with an inspirational one. Okay. Chris Barry (49:21) We had a client whose ex was trying to force her to sell their home. They had like a mobile home. It was a very modest home, but it was their home and she lived there with an adult child and a couple of other kids. Lisa tell me about that. Lisa Johnson (49:34) I think a couple of the kids were her exes like nephews and nieces. Chris Barry (49:38) Right. So so the but the the ex was being really bad and and forcing her to sell like leaving her the these kids homeless. And and the judge ruled with him, ma'am, you you know, you have to sell the home. So she I wish we could take credit for this wasn't our idea. Lisa Johnson (49:56) I know it was her idea because we were coming up with all kinds of stuff but Chris Barry (49:59) She sold she sold the home to the adult child for a dollar. Lisa Johnson (50:05) So he got fifty cents. Chris Barry (50:06) Compliant with the judge's orders, gave X fifty cents. There you go. Lisa Johnson (50:12) Yep. I we really Lyndsay Soprano (50:13) I Lisa Johnson (50:14) we Lyndsay Soprano (50:14) love this. Inspirational? I don't know, Chris. Lisa Johnson (50:21) Ha ha ha. Chris Barry (50:21) It's it's the finest example of taking strategic oversight that I've ever heard Lisa Johnson (50:26) Yes, yeah. Yes, and we got to meet her in person too i in California when our first book came out. Yeah. That was amazing. Lyndsay Soprano (50:33) that's awesome. Actually, that was one question that I wanted to ask. Do you work with people throughout the the all of the United States? Are you or like do you globally re work with people? How do you globally? Lisa Johnson (50:44) Globally. I mean we just met with a with a client in India. We've had clients in Africa, Europe. Chris Barry (50:51) The though the the coolest location was we had a woman very early on who lived I don't remember whether it's western or eastern, the more rural part of Australia. She lived on a uranium mine. It was a town that was a uranium mining town, like a had like a hundred people there and that's all that was there. Lisa Johnson (51:08) Yeah, and we helped her get a restraining order. Lyndsay Soprano (51:12) Well, yeah, because I was wondering as I was reading your book thinking books, thinking that like, okay, because how could you possibly know the law in all of these different places all over the globe, right? So when when those and I know that we're getting close on time, when when you have cases like these that come in where you don't know anything about the country they live in and their their legal process, how do you guys manage that? Lisa Johnson (51:38) That's such a great question because people are always like, Well, I'm in the UK, and I'm like, we've got a bunch of clients in the UK. Lyndsay Soprano (51:44) So we're not Lisa Johnson (51:45) lawyers, so we cannot give any kind of legal advice. And like we said, we're strategists. So we basically teach the art of persuasion. There's universal best interest factors for adults and children, like you know, kids and human beings thrive on stability, consistency, and routine. Most people agree that a child deserves to have the The right to have a relationship with both parents. Most people believe that when there's documented abuse or neglect, like that, that matters too. Most people believe that family, you know, that kids should have a relationship with extended family, that a parent that's doing the primary caretaking, that that should affect a decision as well. So that's that those are universal factors. You don't need to know the law to build a persuasive, compelling narrative. And so, really, with us educating our clients on how to build a persuasive case, how to present properly, how to communicate effectively, that's not legal stuff. Chris Barry (52:43) Right. There's a big difference between like file this motion, which is legal stuff, versus versus build your narrative around these points because this is what will matter to someone deciding the future of your children. Lyndsay Soprano (52:57) Well, that's great. I'm glad that I asked because I I I found it to be curious because I was like, how in the world do they know all of this stuff everywhere? You know, all over the world. So that's great that you guys are able to help people all all over the globe, even in the little tiny towns that have a hundred people. and so this has been incredible. And I seriously want to keep talking to you guys for the rest of the day. And I know that you guys have other things to do than hang out with Lyndsay here on Giving Pain Purpose, but you guys, can you talk just briefly about where we can find you? What's the best way to get to you guys? Chris Barry (53:30) That's super, super easy. It's bin there got out dot com, which is all one word, no punctuation, just bin there got out dot com. as I mentioned earlier, Lisa does an amazing job of connecting with our audience on Instagram and that sort of all our all the other social media channels too. But we start with Instagram and there we are at bin underscore there underscore got underscore out. So it's like just bin there got out with underscores in between. Lisa Johnson (53:57) And the books are on Amazon. Chris Barry (54:00) Channel. Lisa Johnson (54:01) Yep. We also have a YouTube channel. We also have a podcast. Everything has just been there, got out. We have that course, how to communicate with your ex without destroying your case or losing your mind. And what we're coming out very soon with the alienation masterclass, How to Protect Your Relationship with Your Children in and Out of Court, which kind of aligns with a lot in that second book. Lyndsay Soprano (54:21) So we've got Been There, Got Out is their first book, which is amazing. It's got a blue cover on Amazon. And then you've got When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You and it's got a maroon cover or burgundy, whatever color you would like to call this. It's beautiful. I've got sticky ears and don't dog ear done like half of every single book here. So it's like it's somewhat embarrassing sometimes how much I do for these episodes. Lisa Johnson (54:40) I'm so flattered. Lyndsay Soprano (54:41) Yeah. Thank you so much for your time today. I just really appreciate getting to know you both even further today. It's been great. Lisa Johnson (54:48) thank you so much, Lyndsay. Lyndsay Soprano (54:50) Thank you so much. Hey guys, if you or your children are in immediate physical danger, please call the police. Contact your local domestic violence center. here in the United States, you can call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 800-799-7233 or the Child Help National Child Abuse Hotline at 800-422-4453. That's here in the States. I apologize that I don't have everywhere all over the globe for you on those numbers. But please do seek out help. If you are in any danger, put down the book, put down the podcast. Please make sure that you're taking care of yourself and the ones that you love. You are exclusively invited to share this been there, got out, VIP pain journey together. Let's get to the heart of how to heal with you by my side. Please follow Giving Pain Purpose wherever you digest your podcast content. We will be there. Visit us at giving painpurpose.com and follow us on all the socials. Thanks for listening, my little VIPs. Catch you on the other side.