Latest / The Curve / What AOC's public egg freezing journey reveals about the cost of fertility.

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What AOC's public egg freezing journey reveals about the cost of fertility. · The Curve

• 0:01
  U.S. Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has recently been freezing her eggs and documenting the entire process on her social media account to her six million plus followers.
• 0:12
  It got us thinking about the economics of egg freezing and indeed the economics of becoming a parent.
• 0:17
  How much do you need to become a parent?
• 0:19
  How much do you need to freeze your eggs?
• 0:20
  How much do you need to store your eggs?
• 0:22
  We're going to be talking about surrogacy and the business model that is in some parts of the world.
• 0:27
  We will cover all this and more in today's episode.
• 0:30
  Hi, and welcome to The Curve Weekly, where we read the finance news so that you don't have to.
• 0:34
  I'm Sophie Hallwright, ex-TV radio producer who was very sick and tired of not understanding money, the economy, or how to grow my wealth.
• 0:42
  So we started this podcast.
• 0:43
  And I'm Emily Swinton, writer, newly published author and broadcaster, focused on engendering the conversations we're taught not to have.
• 0:51
  Big disclaimer on this one.
• 0:52
  We know that these topics can be really sensitive to a lot of people, so please take care while listening.
• 0:57
  And also, we apologize.
• 0:59
  There is a fair amount of swearing in this episode.
• 1:01
  But first, here's a quick word from today's sponsor.
• 1:11
  Strong returns in one year, I mean, you could say luck, but strong returns over 10 years, that's a track record.
• 1:19
  Find out more about Generate's 10-year track record and see their disclosures in the show notes.
• 1:25
  Remember though, track record does not guarantee future returns.
• 1:29
  Emma, when I was thinking about what we should start talking about at the beginning of this episode, I was like, maybe we should spear you from the in the red and the green this week.
• 1:38
  I don't know whether to be flattered or patronized.
• 1:42
  Well, I was just thinking lots of our audience don't know that much about like who you are.
• 1:49
  And we've obviously had you on the podcast years ago, but maybe we could talk about something to do with your finances in a less are you sticking to your budget that is obviously non-existent right now.
• 2:01
  Do you have any examples of your relationship with money or times where you were like, yeah, maybe didn't deal with that very well, that may be an insight into who you are for those who haven't listened to interviews?
• 2:16
  Maybe rather than doing like a financial check-in?
• 2:18
  Yeah.
• 2:19
  We could just... Love that.
• 2:20
  Would you?
• 2:21
  Yeah.
• 2:22
  I literally had this conversation with my mum yesterday about a financial choice that was...
• 2:29
  made for me but with me which I think set a very key theme within the kind of foundations of my relationship to money at age 15 I felt really bad I always make her feel so bad about this but it is also like insane and listen no shade to my parents my parents are fabulous my mom is they are just the most wonderful parents on the planet I love them so dearly my mom is incredible she doesn't know why she did this she is like she I was we spoke about this in the car yesterday and she was
• 2:58
  What the hell were you thinking, Adrienne?
• 3:00
  I don't know.
• 3:01
  Oh, my God.
• 3:01
  When I was 15 years old, I was in a Nivea advert.
• 3:05
  So I was a model for a few years.
• 3:07
  I was a very unsuccessful model.
• 3:09
  Let me just say that.
• 3:10
  I was an unsuccessful model.
• 3:12
  I don't know.
• 3:13
  I could see that for you.
• 3:14
  Well, it didn't happen.
• 3:16
  You can't.
• 3:17
  You can't look into the imagined future, Sophie.
• 3:19
  I am the future.
• 3:20
  I am 34 now.
• 3:21
  And I was 15 then.
• 3:22
  Okay, right.
• 3:23
  So I was a model with select model.
• 3:24
  It was like the dream.
• 3:25
  I went to an all girls school.
• 3:26
  We were like, oh my God, we want to be models.
• 3:28
  It was like so bad.
• 3:28
  It was lame.
• 3:29
  It was just kind of baked into culture.
• 3:30
  So I got scared to be a model and I was a crap model because I just, I hated doing test shoots.
• 3:35
  I found it so boring.
• 3:37
  Like as a model, you just like sat there and were like painted.
• 3:39
  I just found it so dull.
• 3:40
  But I like the prospect of earning loads of money.
• 3:42
  So at 15, I was put up to do an advert for Nivea for the skincare product.
• 3:48
  It was like a spot cream.
• 3:49
  So like, wasn't that glam.
• 3:50
  But I got flown to Germany.
• 3:51
  Oh my.
• 3:52
  And did this advert.
• 3:53
  And I got paid 10K in total.
• 3:56
  So my, and that was with the agency fees taken off.
• 3:58
  Also at 15,000 pounds.
• 4:01
  And so much money.
• 4:02
  Sorry.
• 4:03
  It's like you're a millionaire overnight.
• 4:05
  Oh my God.
• 4:06
  So can you imagine, and actually, oh my God, in a future episode, can we work this out?
• 4:11
  If my parents had said, put this in a high compound yield, whatever it may be, account and let it grow.
• 4:20
  At 34, can you imagine how much I'd have in this account right now, my lifetime savings?
• 4:25
  Instead, my mum took me to the bank.
• 4:27
  I think it was like, we got a check.
• 4:28
  So I cashed this check or something.
• 4:30
  I then got a debit card that this money account was attached to because it was in a fucking current account.
• 4:36
  It was.
• 4:37
  Oh my.
• 4:38
  Yeah.
• 4:39
  This is so wild.
• 4:40
  It was so bad.
• 4:41
  So I think I honestly think by the time I went to university, I have three grand of it left, which I spent on clothes.
• 4:47
  Honestly, it pains me to this day.
• 4:49
  But also you could have paid for university.
• 4:51
  You could have.
• 4:52
  I'm surprised that they gave it to you.
• 4:54
  I genuinely don't think they thought about it.
• 4:56
  I think my dad is really good at business.
• 4:58
  He's been like for a journalist particularly.
• 5:01
  He was kind of still in the like heyday of like golden era of journalism.
• 5:04
  So he had like the last of a good run.
• 5:06
  But he's good with business.
• 5:07
  He's good with money.
• 5:08
  He's made some really good investments over his career.
• 5:11
  Yeah.
• 5:12
  And just never thought to pass that info to me.
• 5:15
  That is so wild.
• 5:15
  So I think that gives you some context where I relationship to money.
• 5:19
  So good at attracting it, but not strategic in terms of what I did with that.
• 5:23
  So never learnt that core skill.
• 5:25
  Okay, so Soph, I really want to get into the discussion that we're about to have today because it is so juicy.
• 5:30
  But before we do, I actually just want to throw the traditional question to you.
• 5:33
  Are you red or green after a weekend at Edinburgh Fringe Festival?
• 5:37
  Okay, so for anyone that doesn't know, Edinburgh Fringe Festival is...
• 5:40
  How would you even describe it?
• 5:41
  It's a month of comedians, plays, all sorts of performers.
• 5:46
  Months of creativity.
• 5:48
  Yeah, they all gather in Edinburgh.
• 5:50
  It is.
• 5:51
  It's such a gathering.
• 5:52
  I can't believe how many people there were.
• 5:54
  It's wild, isn't it?
• 5:56
  The city just, I mean, I've only been there for the Fringe.
• 5:58
  But it's just kind of...
• 6:00
  I mean, I went to 10 shows across two and a half days, and I didn't once go to the same venue, just to give you a context for how enormous it is.
• 6:08
  It's crazy.
• 6:09
  Anyway, it was so fun.
• 6:10
  It was one of my birthday presents, so I didn't actually book any of the shows.
• 6:14
  So she's a baller on a budget again.
• 6:17
  Other people are paying your way.
• 6:20
  Is this what we're teaching the carve girls?
• 6:22
  It is really off-brand.
• 6:23
  Oh, my God.
• 6:24
  Do you know what?
• 6:25
  Two people came up to me at the Fringe saying they listened to the podcast.
• 6:27
  No.
• 6:28
  And it was funny because I'd come out of one show, which was quite seriously the most bizarre thing I'd ever seen.
• 6:35
  It was these four people dressed as monks, and they didn't talk for an hour.
• 6:39
  And it wasn't cool weird.
• 6:41
  It was weird weird.
• 6:41
  But came out of it quite bamboozled by the whole situation.
• 6:44
  And someone was like, I listened to the podcast.
• 6:47
  And she was from Edinburgh.
• 6:48
  And I was like, this is so cool.
• 6:51
  But no, it was a really fun weekend.
• 6:52
  Wouldn't have been able to go if it wasn't a present.
• 6:54
  But so fun.
• 6:59
  Now, today's conversation is one that we've been wanting to have for a while.
• 7:04
  So we recorded an episode, which you may or may not have listened to, to Botox or not to Botox.
• 7:11
  And one of the things that you mentioned was the two biggest questions in your 30s that you're kind of struggling to figure out what way you want to go is do you want to be a mom and do you want to inject a woman?
• 7:20
  Do you want to get Botox?
• 7:21
  Do you want to freeze your face?
• 7:21
  Do you want to be a mother?
• 7:23
  Do you want to get Botox?
• 7:23
  Those are two things that haunt me.
• 7:25
  It's true though.
• 7:26
  Very cool.
• 7:26
  Same.
• 7:27
  And I've given into one, as we all probably know by now.
• 7:30
  The second is still lingering.
• 7:32
  And so we wanted to talk about the fact that less people are having babies.
• 7:37
  What does this mean financially for the individual, for economies?
• 7:42
  What is the business opportunity?
• 7:43
  How much money is being made in this space?
• 7:45
  And there is so much to unpack.
• 7:49
  But the main reason we wanted to talk about this, Emma, do you want to introduce what is the most topical, kind of amazing story that's come out last week?
• 7:57
  Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, the very well-known politician in the US, has recently been going through egg freezing.
• 8:06
  and showcasing the whole process to her audience online, which I think we just need to take a minute to acknowledge what an incredible thing that is to do.
• 8:15
  Has any lawmaker ever been so open, one about their fertility journey, as it were, and also just being so open and vulnerable in showcasing the process?
• 8:24
  And she's literally going online every day and saying, "'Today I feel so bloated, "'today the hormone injections are affecting me like this, "'this is what you have to do.'"
• 8:32
  And this level of transparency
• 8:35
  that she has given to the process itself, I think is remarkable.
• 8:38
  And it raises so many really important points around women and power and careers and timelines and fertility and motherhood.
• 8:48
  I think she's one of the most recognizable US politicians.
• 8:52
  And, you know, potentially gearing up for a 2028 run for presidency.
• 8:58
  She hasn't confirmed it.
• 8:58
  She's never been shy about how huge her political ambitions are.
• 9:03
  And quite rightly so.
• 9:04
  She's a brilliant politician.
• 9:06
  And the fact that she is doing this very publicly, and I guess feels kind of part of that conversation.
• 9:12
  Because realistically, if you're gearing up...
• 9:14
  for the biggest political campaign potentially.
• 9:17
  And I mean, it's 2028, it's gonna be a massive election anyway.
• 9:20
  So she's gearing up for something big, regardless of what role she ends up campaigning for.
• 9:24
  You know, the motherhood question, of course, is gonna be pretty front and center.
• 9:29
  Do you have time in that period to go and to meet someone, find someone, get pregnant, have baby, and then to start...
• 9:35
  No.
• 9:36
  And I think, I was reading a piece in the New York Times about it, which was just so fascinated by her relationship.
• 9:42
  I'm not annoyed.
• 9:44
  I'm annoyed.
• 9:44
  Well, I was just, so she, when she first was elected, she had a partner, kind of a long-term boyfriend who she'd met at college.
• 9:51
  They very quietly broke up two years ago.
• 9:54
  We say quietly and they were
• 9:55
  Does she owe the world a public announcement about her relationship status?
• 9:59
  No, I don't think so.
• 10:01
  But nonetheless, this article is kind of focusing a lot on the fact that she is now single.
• 10:05
  She's broken up from this partner.
• 10:07
  What does that mean for her candidacy?
• 10:09
  What does that mean for future family building, etc., etc.
• 10:13
  ?
• 10:13
  But again, it highlights an issue that so many women in their 30s are facing today, particularly as dating is in a perennial state of supposed crisis and more and more people are staying single for longer.
• 10:26
  The fertility question becomes more...
• 10:29
  heavy and kind of seemingly at least from a societal perspective urgent so I have been obsessively watching Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez AOC document her egg freezing journey and I just thought it gives a kind of really topical and important I guess push for us having this conversation having it right now.
• 10:51
  I don't know if you looked at the comments on some of the articles, but they are... Oh my gosh.
• 10:56
  No.
• 10:56
  Outrageous.
• 10:58
  What were people saying?
• 10:59
  There was this podcaster and author who is very, you know, in quotes, pro-life.
• 11:05
  Sorry, it's not pro-life.
• 11:07
  It's anti-choice.
• 11:09
  These motherfuckers saying they're pro-life.
• 11:11
  Where are you when a woman has the baby she didn't want and couldn't afford when she can't afford to put that kid through school, when she can't afford healthcare for that child?
• 11:18
  where are you they are not pro-life they are anti-choice and it's a hill upon which i will die yeah i know i so agree so this is the issue that i will go to my brain and i think i mean this this quote like one of the things she said was you know glamorizing the lie that woman can have it all you can't biology is real and how you order your life makes or breaks your future and i was like oh you know what i'm saying
• 11:42
  Yeah, same.
• 11:43
  Fuck off.
• 11:43
  But the amount of men that commented on it and women is insane.
• 11:48
  And what, do you think it was a very negative?
• 11:50
  Yeah, I was just saying it's your fault.
• 11:51
  You've left it late.
• 11:52
  Like, you shouldn't be doing your egg freezing.
• 11:55
  It's your own choice for, like, not having kids sooner.
• 11:58
  You've chosen your career over it, blah, blah, blah.
• 12:00
  Can I just say...
• 12:01
  Sophie, when you say that to me, I have a visceral reaction of anger and hatred.
• 12:06
  This is where I think my body rages.
• 12:10
  How some fucking keyboard warriors are saying that, what have you achieved?
• 12:14
  What have you done?
• 12:14
  Like everyone is on a different trajectory in their life and is making different choices and everyone's timeline is different.
• 12:19
  Also, you have no idea why someone has made a choice around kids or not having kids and where they're at in that journey.
• 12:25
  So how anyone can sit at their laptop
• 12:29
  Also, chatting to one of the most successful, whether you agree with her politics or not, is irrelevant.
• 12:32
  She is one of the most successful and prominent US politicians, and she's so young.
• 12:38
  What came up for me and what I think we should talk about is the idea of the affordability of egg freezing, because...
• 12:45
  While we look at her and think, amazing, which it is, it's so cool that she's being open about it because up until now, I mean, I imagine there's people that have had their ex-fros and have to go and hide in the bathroom to do their injections and pretend that they're fine.
• 12:56
  And it's a huge emotional and physical toll.
• 12:59
  Yeah, I think talking about the financial element is really important because for a lot of women, they think of this as a form of insurance to give themselves time to extend their fertility window.
• 13:10
  But...
• 13:13
  It is incredibly expensive and it's a luxury a lot of people don't have.
• 13:17
  And it's not that successful.
• 13:20
  I think this idea, I think the kind of the terminology used around it, like it's an insurance policy, I don't think gives the full picture.
• 13:27
  No, I agree.
• 13:27
  In terms of how many people actually go back to use the eggs, the success rate with which people are then able to have a child with those frozen eggs.
• 13:34
  That's not to say it's not a wonderful route for some people.
• 13:37
  There's an interesting study, UCLA Health Study.
• 13:39
  They basically found between 2014 and 2021 only 6% of people who froze their eggs and had used them for IVF within seven years.
• 13:46
  6%.
• 13:46
  6%?
• 13:47
  Yeah.
• 13:50
  That's really... And that's because a lot of people get pregnant on their own.
• 13:52
  Yes, exactly.
• 13:53
  So then in that case, you think, well, great.
• 13:54
  And, you know, if for you it was a kind of mental insurance that allowed you to feel freer in your dating life, it allowed you to kind of take the pressure off, then obviously that's a great thing.
• 14:04
  But I mean, even in an interview in 2020, AOC said, you know, I'm thinking like, you know, what do I want to do next?
• 14:09
  Do I have to freeze my eggs?
• 14:11
  Can I afford that?
• 14:12
  And I thought that was like someone in public office who's thinking about the affordability of egg freezing as a potential barrier to them doing it.
• 14:19
  I was like...
• 14:20
  I mean, it has been for me.
• 14:22
  I've thought about getting my eggs frozen since I was about 26.
• 14:25
  Really?
• 14:26
  Yeah, because I always knew I wanted to prioritize.
• 14:30
  I mean, I think maybe I always thought I would meet someone later in life, but I also knew I really would love to be a mother.
• 14:36
  And so I've been really aware of it.
• 14:39
  Honestly, I called an egg freezing clinic when I was 26, 27 to see how much it was.
• 14:43
  And at the time, it was still 10,000 Australian.
• 14:45
  So I was like, I actually just can't afford to do that.
• 14:48
  And for me, I think it has been hugely a financial reason why I haven't done it.
• 14:52
  And have you explored it recently?
• 14:54
  Because I thought you were looking into it.
• 14:55
  Well, actually, I'd love to play the trailer from our Hurtility conversation.
• 14:59
  We spoke to the founder of Hurtility, which is actually started by, there's three of them, the founders, but we interviewed Deirdre for the podcast.
• 15:06
  And it was really interesting hearing her perspective on the financial implications and also the decision to freeze your eggs.
• 15:13
  A lot of us are thinking of it as this insurance policy, but actually,
• 15:16
  Firstly, if you don't know what your fertility status is, you may not even need to.
• 15:22
  Everyone's getting so scared about this timeline that women are freezing them quite young.
• 15:28
  And actually, it's a lot of money.
• 15:29
  It puts your body through a lot and you may not necessarily need it.
• 15:32
  So I might just play a little snippet of that now.
• 15:36
  So I saw an interesting stat this morning that if every woman who was on wait lists to see a gynecologist in the UK stood shoulder to shoulder, that it would span 191 miles.
• 15:47
  One in three women has a severe gynecological condition.
• 15:50
  One in three.
• 15:51
  It's huge.
• 15:52
  When we started out, people were, there's this fear mongering.
• 15:55
  Do you know what's really scary?
• 15:56
  Not knowing.
• 15:57
  No.
• 15:58
  When you're devoid of any options, the really scary part is when they go, sorry, there's really nothing left that we can do.
• 16:04
  That's scary.
• 16:05
  It's this unspoken truth that you have to do this sort of calculation in your mind as to how long you've got to either meet someone, settle down.
• 16:14
  procreate you know do all the things that you that you used to think you'd have done by the time you were 25 i personally since i was about 26 have felt incredibly scared about my biological clock it feels like it's just ticking in the back of my head at all times i want to hear your interpretation on egg freezing what are your thoughts on this as an industry i think mine are actually a little bit controversial
• 16:38
  Can I ask Sophie at the back of that?
• 16:39
  Sorry, did you get your fertility tested?
• 16:41
  Yeah, so I did a fertility test after that interview.
• 16:43
  How much does that cost?
• 16:45
  It's 300 pounds.
• 16:46
  Oh, that feels like really...
• 16:47
  Which is so reasonable.
• 16:48
  And what do you learn there?
• 16:50
  You basically, they test nine of your hormones and then you have a...
• 16:53
  It's all on an app.
• 16:54
  It's like really beautiful digital experience.
• 16:56
  And then you have a call with a nurse afterwards who can like run you through all of the different...
• 17:01
  What do the hormones mean?
• 17:02
  How do they relate to your fertility?
• 17:05
  And for me, it was just so much peace of mind.
• 17:07
  No, cool.
• 17:08
  I'm fine.
• 17:09
  I had two hormones that were down that were out of normal range, but she was so not worried about it.
• 17:14
  And just having that conversation made me think, oh, why would I then go and spend 7,000 pounds on getting my ex-fros in and putting my body through that if I actually technically don't need it right now?
• 17:23
  So I'll do another test in six months' time and see if there's any major changes.
• 17:28
  And if there are, maybe I'd make different decisions.
• 17:30
  But-
• 17:31
  It does just give you back the power, I think, to have visibility on what's going on.
• 17:34
  Whereas what I think a lot of women think is, okay, well, I'll get my insurance policy.
• 17:39
  But you're right.
• 17:40
  A lot of people don't end up using them.
• 17:42
  And you need like 10 to 15 eggs to have, I think, a 50% chance even.
• 17:47
  You know, this is like quite low.
• 17:48
  So lots of people, if they want that sort of guaranteed feeling of it is an insurance policy.
• 17:52
  Yeah.
• 17:53
  You need a lot of eggs and probably several harvests to go in and do it.
• 17:57
  I mean, Vicks had it done and she really had so much clarity and pressure taken off her.
• 18:03
  And she was really grateful that she did it.
• 18:06
  Wow.
• 18:07
  And it was a really positive experience for her.
• 18:09
  But yeah, I think everyone's different.
• 18:11
  And I know a lot of people that just do it even if they don't know if they want to be a mum because they just want to have the option.
• 18:17
  which I think if you have the money and you have the time and you feel, I mean I think it's amazing that people can have options now but it's just, I think for it to be
• 18:29
  sort of spoken about as if it's the answer it's it's not necessarily i've never had my fertility tested and i've thought about a lot but i've had quite a few friends who've had their fertility tested and then been told shit's really bad like it's not looking good you'll probably not be able to get pregnant you'll probably need ivf like real kind of really unfiltered very uncaring delivery of quite a shocking message and
• 18:55
  And then they've gone, they've gone, left the doctors and been like, oh my God, had sex, unprotected with their partner and got pregnant immediately.
• 19:02
  And then had children like, you know, children that they adore, but like probably a bit earlier than they would have otherwise wanted.
• 19:07
  And that's happened a couple of times with people I know.
• 19:09
  So I got so put off and I was like, I don't want to, I think particularly I was...
• 19:13
  pretty much single for like eight years single and dating and in that time I can remember a friend telling me like you definitely should get your fertility test you just want that power to know and I was like what will I do with that information I can't afford to get my eggs for that time and what am I gonna do it's gonna make me feel so panicked when I'm dating if there if I find out there's an issue there is nothing I can do that is not information I can use now whereas now in a relationship and we've been to that for two years and obviously we talk about not obviously but we do talk about kids obviously
• 19:39
  often and you know what that would look like and what that timeline is and both of us are building our respective careers in really exciting and incredible ways at the moment and kids are not things that we want to think about in the foreseeable and now I'm at the point when okay now I'm in this relationship which
• 19:55
  you know, I love and will be together, I hope, for a very long time.
• 19:58
  Now I feel like, okay, I could get, I want to get my facility tested probably because just so we have that information together because now I could act on it.
• 20:04
  Now I could be like, okay, we need to speed this up.
• 20:07
  So just can you fast track your business to make millions?
• 20:09
  And I fast track my book, writing my next three books and get huge.
• 20:12
  But
• 20:12
  There's just a little bit of like urgency it might create.
• 20:14
  But I think that it is, it's such a loaded topic.
• 20:19
  And it's one for which women are so continually judged.
• 20:24
  And it's so, obviously it's so fraught for anyone who's gone through any sort of fertility issues.
• 20:28
  Obviously my, you know, so much, I have so much empathy and quite a few friends who've gone through issues with their fertility and it's devastating.
• 20:35
  And I think part of that is because we, as women, are brought up being told your kind of your value, your purpose, your worth in life is your destiny is to be a mother.
• 20:44
  And actually, that's just not true for a lot of us.
• 20:47
  Like, you know, I think I want kids now, but, you know, it does change.
• 20:51
  But I think because we've been so conditioned to believe that we are meant to be mothers,
• 20:55
  It comes with this huge societal pressure.
• 20:58
  And so it feels so loaded.
• 21:00
  And so every decision is both a kind of societal shame-laden one and then, of course, a financial one, which comes with its own shame.
• 21:07
  I felt shame I couldn't afford to get my eggs broke.
• 21:09
  And I was like, oh, it's so pathetic.
• 21:11
  Like, I can't even fucking afford this thing that would allow me to...
• 21:14
  And so I think there's so much untangling that we as women have to do to even be able to grapple with the motherhood question in an unloaded, shame-free way.
• 21:27
  Also, you couple that with the idea that if you – like we were told at 16, if you look at a boy, you're going to get pregnant.
• 21:33
  You spend your whole adolescence trying not to get pregnant and try not to get an STI.
• 21:37
  And then suddenly it's like – well, still try not to get an STI, but try and get pregnant like all of a sudden.
• 21:43
  I think it's probably worth looking at the numbers because we actually did a survey to our community about a year ago.
• 21:50
  And most of the people who gave us their details, thank you so much everyone who did, were mid to late 30s.
• 21:56
  The average for our survey and what we did, the average person that got them frozen was at 33.
• 22:01
  Yeah.
• 22:02
  But actually, the more holistic average is 35 to 37, which is so annoying when you look at some of the comments that were coming through for AOC.
• 22:12
  There's so many people saying, you know, you're too old to get your eggs frozen.
• 22:14
  And it's like, actually, no.
• 22:16
  And one of the doctors in this Guardian article, they quoted saying 36 is a ridiculous age to be saying, oh, egg freezing will never work.
• 22:23
  From a success rate standpoint, egg freezing tends to be the most effective age at 35 or younger, but you don't fall off the fertility cliff when you turn 35.
• 22:31
  I would welcome any woman who wanted to freeze their eggs at 36, which is better than 37 and better than 38, which is better than 39 and so forth.
• 22:38
  So like, I just thought how amazing that there's actual doctors with legitimate scientific backed answers that can try and diffuse the fear that obviously everyone feels like they've left it too late.
• 22:49
  But...
• 22:50
  For us within the curve community, the average was 33.
• 22:53
  And in terms of the amount that people are paying, it's between 10,000 and 15,000 New Zealand, around 7,000 in the UK.
• 23:00
  And this is only for one round.
• 23:02
  And what is one round?
• 23:04
  So one round is basically for one period, you get your injections, you get – So it's like one harvesting?
• 23:10
  Yeah, one harvesting.
• 23:11
  So it's like one cycle.
• 23:13
  And for some people, you can get 20 eggs or more, and some people get one or two or none.
• 23:17
  And so the thing that's really hard and quite heartbreaking is that people save up to spend for a round of eggs and then may not get what they need.
• 23:26
  And the percentages drop in terms of how successful or how likely you are to get a live birth from it, which is why one round often is not enough.
• 23:35
  Yeah, the price is not cheap.
• 23:38
  And so for people like for me, I was just totally locked out of this conversation.
• 23:41
  And I actually had a friend offer to pay for my ex to be frozen, which I thought was like the kindest thing ever.
• 23:47
  And I had my dad offered to pay for it.
• 23:49
  But I just felt like, yeah, I don't know.
• 23:51
  I didn't go through.
• 23:52
  I haven't gone through that yet.
• 23:53
  Is it still something you're thinking about?
• 23:54
  No, I think after the conversation we had with Deirdre from Fertility, I think that if I found that my fertility was in a position where I needed to have kids sooner, I probably would do that rather than put not only my bank account but my body in a position where I would –
• 24:11
  I think something she said really hit home for me where she was like, you know, it's going to be hard either way.
• 24:15
  There's also never really a right time, which I think is true.
• 24:18
  Yeah.
• 24:19
  And if I could get pregnant naturally, I would probably speed that up rather than, I think for me, and I haven't fully decided on that yet, but I also, yeah, I just think I'm probably not going to get them, get it done.
• 24:31
  On the age piece, I do think, you know, the idea that we think, oh, it's too old to freeze your eggs at 36, that's probably the same.
• 24:36
  the time in which you're most able to afford it like I know the idea that the best time to freeze your eggs in your 20s I'm like well good luck to everyone great if you've managed to like do a career where you make a ton of money in your 20s like amazing but if you don't have that if you've pursued anything and like media creative industries like you're probably not like making enough or you know you're not having it sponsored by your company if you work for like a journalist platform or something
• 25:00
  And I think so there's so much, again, that's attached to it because the age bracket in which you're most likely to be able to actually pay for it is one that's then societally deemed and shamed as being too old.
• 25:11
  I think before we move on from egg freezing, let's just chat about the industry as a whole because it's huge.
• 25:15
  It's massive.
• 25:16
  So global egg freezing, the market is approximately 4.5 billion in the US.
• 25:20
  That was in 2023.
• 25:20
  4.5 billion.
• 25:23
  And that was a few years ago.
• 25:24
  It's projected to be $9 billion by 2030.
• 25:26
  And also it's worth keeping in mind, there's one in eight couples having trouble getting pregnant or sustaining pregnancy.
• 25:33
  So this is also not just people pushing out getting pregnant later.
• 25:38
  It's also people that from whatever age struggle to get pregnant or have a pregnancy, go to full term.
• 25:44
  And this is obviously a huge generational shift that we're seeing globally.
• 25:48
  Yeah.
• 25:49
  Yes, lots of people are choosing either to be child-free and not have kids.
• 25:53
  Lots of people either can't get pregnant for fertility reasons.
• 25:56
  But there's so many different elements that come into less babies being born.
• 26:01
  And I think that it's really unfair to look at this whole conversation without...
• 26:06
  I mean, yes, there's a huge business behind this, right?
• 26:09
  Like there's a lot of people making a lot of money out of women's fertility.
• 26:12
  But also think about the fact that...
• 26:14
  If you can't get pregnant naturally, how amazing that there's a way that you could try.
• 26:18
  I think that it's easy to look at this and think it's exploitative for women to try and be making money out of our most fearful time.
• 26:27
  But I think it is also incredible that there is...
• 26:29
  opportunity to explore other routes to giving birth.
• 26:34
  But yeah, it's an enormous industry with so much money being made.
• 26:38
  And this is only going to increase.
• 26:40
  So one thing I've always wondered when it comes to egg freezing is how much, okay, we know that it costs, you've said about 7k in the UK, as an example, of how much costs to actually go through process.
• 26:50
  But then you have to pay to keep the eggs frozen.
• 26:53
  Yeah.
• 26:54
  How much does that cost?
• 26:54
  And like, honestly, what a genius business model.
• 26:57
  Like, it's a subscription, right?
• 26:59
  It is a subscription model.
• 27:00
  You've got to get a subscription to have your eggs on ice.
• 27:02
  I just remember doing the numbers for this myself and looking at the upfront cost and then the ongoing cost because it's something you have to think about and have in your budget for you don't even know how long.
• 27:13
  It's different in different parts of the world, but like annual storage in the US is anywhere from 500 to 1,000 a year, which is not nothing.
• 27:20
  Honestly, it's not nothing.
• 27:21
  I mean, it's... Also, especially if you've already paid, like...
• 27:24
  thousands for the first process like holistically some packages you get you know storage included if you do your eggs with them like there's a lot of stuff like that but on average um storage in the uk is actually a lot cheaper from like 150 pounds a year to 350 pounds a year in new zealand it's similar it's about 400 to 800 but it really it's there's such um varying amounts on storage and on ivf cycles because you go with different clinics
• 27:52
  in the UK, I remember I looked at the London Women's Clinic as a really private, small clinic that I was considering going to.
• 27:59
  And they were a lot more expensive than other clinics that have chains across the whole of the UK, because obviously their costs are brought down the more patients that come through.
• 28:07
  So it depends on what you're wanting to prioritize.
• 28:10
  I felt like I would be quite stressed about spending that much money, and I didn't want to be in an environment that felt like the sausage factory.
• 28:16
  So I wanted to go to a clinic where they prioritize calm in the waiting room.
• 28:21
  And, you know, really help you with the holistic side of keeping your stress levels low throughout the experience.
• 28:26
  Like, I mean, but that was just for me.
• 28:28
  And also, it was just way too expensive.
• 28:30
  So I didn't do any of it.
• 28:32
  But I think that that's sort of the issue with the egg freezing piece is that there's the upfront amount.
• 28:37
  Well, there's testing first if you want to do that.
• 28:39
  Then there's the upfront amount.
• 28:41
  Then there's ongoing storage costs.
• 28:42
  And then there's IVF, which, by the way, is...
• 28:45
  super expensive well depends where you are well yeah because in the uk because i was looking into actually doing the research for this i did begin to think does this make me want to get my eggs frozen more just by virtue of like delving into all these pieces and and hearing other women's experience of it and the answer kind of was no i didn't it didn't make sense i'm not sure
• 29:03
  Well, just because, I don't know, I think there's so much fear-mongering that is being...
• 29:07
  I mean, the marketing campaigns for egg freezing feel quite fear-mongering.
• 29:11
  And the fact that egg freezing and fertility issues are really... Or fertility services are really targeted at women.
• 29:18
  Even though, I think it's somewhere like half of infertility issues are caused by men.
• 29:22
  And we just never have a conversation about male fertility.
• 29:26
  So there just feels like there's always this pressure on women.
• 29:28
  Yeah.
• 29:29
  I did momentarily look into getting my eggs frozen for free, but then you have to give half of them away.
• 29:34
  So there's this kind of egg donation scheme in the UK.
• 29:36
  I looked at that too.
• 29:37
  Isn't it just, it's so weird to think about because on the one hand, I think it's amazing for people who can't get access.
• 29:43
  You know, like what's the difference in donating your eggs to donating blood?
• 29:47
  I think it's a massive difference.
• 29:49
  I know, but my point is that it's like people, you know, make those decisions because they're selfless and they're helping someone else, whether it's donating an organ, whether it's, you know, it's quite amazing.
• 30:00
  If someone has no way of having a natural birth and someone is willing to donate their eggs, it's incredible.
• 30:06
  Yeah.
• 30:07
  But then when I started thinking about it myself, I was like, God, I don't know.
• 30:10
  I feel really split on this.
• 30:12
  And I just, it wasn't enough for me to do it for free.
• 30:16
  So I do love getting free things.
• 30:18
  But I think I would struggle to give my eggs away if I hadn't already had kids.
• 30:23
  Yeah.
• 30:24
  If I do have kids one day and, you know, I have happy and healthy kids, great.
• 30:28
  Yeah.
• 30:30
  Then I think I would, then I would, then I would be very happy to get it.
• 30:33
  Then I'd be like, cool.
• 30:34
  Like, you know, if I have X number of kids, what I want, then I'm like, someone else take all of them.
• 30:40
  Because spread the joy.
• 30:41
  Also, like, I'm great.
• 30:43
  Like, imagine.
• 30:44
  No, that's so Elon Musk.
• 30:46
  You know, that whole thing.
• 30:47
  Like, it's just trying to break, you know, there's like psycho men who are just trying to populate the world with themselves.
• 30:51
  I'm not that weirdo.
• 30:52
  But I do think there's something so, you know, it's also something that's like not really talked about.
• 30:56
  I don't know how many people are giving their eggs away, but you know that specific, like fertility issues are rising as people are leaving, having kids later, as we've touched on.
• 31:04
  There is obviously going to be a need for eggs.
• 31:05
  So I think it is a wonderful thing to be able to do.
• 31:07
  I was also looking just very briefly at the IVF situation in the UK.
• 31:11
  If you do leave it later and then you do come across some fertility issues and it's harder to have a child than you anticipate.
• 31:17
  In the UK, you can actually get three cycles of IVF
• 31:22
  for free so on the national health service if you are under 42 once you're 42 and i think this is so cruel you get one go at it once you're 42 yeah oh my god and then you have to be able to show in order to get those three free cycles or the one free cycle you have to show you've been trying so off birth control and like actively trying for kids for two years how do you even prove so that
• 31:45
  Well, I guess you just, if you haven't been on birth control for like, I guess that's how they would measure it.
• 31:49
  But suddenly when I, when I read about that, I sense Sunny looked at my timeline and I was like, okay, so how late can I leave it if I want to give myself a good shot at being able to try to have kids and like naturally and then be able to rely on free cycles of IVF from the NHS.
• 32:06
  So I was like, okay, I could, if I start thinking about trying to have kids at 37, 38,
• 32:14
  Then I have two years to try.
• 32:16
  Then I have two years to get my three free cycles with the NHS.
• 32:22
  So actually, then you can, once you do know the numbers, which I guess this is literally why you do the podcast called The Curve, you can begin to kind of plan backwards a bit.
• 32:30
  Be like, okay, realistically, I do want to be able to be in that window that's going to be in that.
• 32:33
  So suddenly I have a bit of a timeline.
• 32:34
  I was like, okay, cool.
• 32:35
  We've got four years now between 34 and 38 in which I can become this like superstar writer who just makes so much money on their books and TV shows that then I'm catapulted into extreme wealth and therefore can have my child of 38.
• 32:52
  I was about to say, I just think the thing that worries me is that so many of us are making these decisions based on finances, you know, like you're a necessity though.
• 33:02
  I know.
• 33:02
  And that's, I think that's what this whole conversation really is about is for me, not getting my ex-pros in as financial, you planning your timeline is so that you can fall into the bracket if for some reason your books aren't international bestsellers, which would never happen.
• 33:18
  Never.
• 33:19
  But you're making these decisions based on, like, what help can you get financially?
• 33:24
  Imagine if the government changed the rules.
• 33:25
  I know.
• 33:26
  And then you couldn't get access to three rounds of IVF.
• 33:28
  What if they changed it and it was one?
• 33:29
  Oh, that's so true.
• 33:30
  You know, it's like you're relying on things that you can't control.
• 33:33
  So true.
• 33:34
  For such an enormous decision that you want to make.
• 33:36
  Yeah, it's true.
• 33:37
  Because your bank account is dictating what you can and can't do.
• 33:40
  And I think that is the real sad part of this is that there's lots of women who are choosing not to have kids and be child-free, which is totally great.
• 33:48
  And that's their decision.
• 33:49
  And being child-free is a totally separate conversation.
• 33:52
  But there's a lot of people that do want to be mothers, but that also want to prioritize their career, can't afford to get their ex frozen.
• 34:01
  We talked about the OnlyFans episode.
• 34:03
  If you haven't listened, obviously listen.
• 34:04
  It was fascinating.
• 34:06
  We talked about Jessie Cave, who is an actress.
• 34:08
  She was catapulted to fame through Harry Potter.
• 34:11
  And she's doing OnlyFans now because she cannot afford the childcare that she would need to have to be able to do a quote-unquote normal job.
• 34:21
  She also, you know, there's issues around fame and wanting to do another degree.
• 34:24
  She can't afford the other degree.
• 34:25
  She also can't afford the childcare associated with that.
• 34:27
  The cost of childcare, I mean, particularly in the UK, I think
• 34:30
  we have the second highest child care in Europe.
• 34:33
  I don't quote on that, but we have been so comparatively expensive when it comes to child care.
• 34:39
  It is a financial decision.
• 34:40
  And I know you have to be...
• 34:42
  It's not just finances.
• 34:43
  And people always say, you know, you make it work.
• 34:45
  Like, you know, people have had kids for time immemorial.
• 34:47
  It's not just about the numbers.
• 34:49
  But I'm like living in an incredibly expensive city, which, by the way, one kind of needs to do if you want to work in a job that is like in media or anything that...
• 34:58
  I mean, all the big jobs tend to be in these major cities.
• 35:02
  Childcare there tends to be so expensive, prohibitively expensive.
• 35:05
  Right?
• 35:06
  You know, I've got quite a lot of friends currently who are genuinely forced to weigh up.
• 35:10
  Do I keep my job?
• 35:13
  In which case...
• 35:14
  I basically will earn nothing because everything I earn is cancelled out by the cost of childcare.
• 35:19
  And, you know, obviously they split things with their partners, but that's kind of just how they're like looking at the numbers.
• 35:24
  Or do I actually just kind of take a pause in my career?
• 35:27
  I do the childcare.
• 35:28
  I get to spend these years with my child.
• 35:31
  But then how difficult is it going to be to get back into my career?
• 35:33
  And it is.
• 35:34
  It's hard.
• 35:35
  So I just think the fact then, you know, obviously there should be a joint conversation between both parents.
• 35:39
  Right.
• 35:40
  But also, like, it's just the financial reality of the situation that we live in, the cities that we live in, where we're not prioritizing, you know, making childcare affordable, you know, giving people the best start to be able to become parents regardless of where they sit at the socioeconomic bracket.
• 35:55
  I guess if you look at the idea that you have to pay to become a mother if you can't get pregnant naturally, it's not just paying for the child.
• 36:04
  It's not the idea of your job being cancelled out by childcare.
• 36:08
  It's then you're so stretched financially that you can't do anything outside of the home generally because all of your money goes on rent and childcare.
• 36:17
  So I think for a lot of women that want to prioritize their career as well as have a family...
• 36:22
  the ticket and the price is just so high, not just to even have a baby, but then to be able to have a career and kids.
• 36:30
  And so, of course, one of the parents generally ends up needing to spend more time because they can't afford to outsource things.
• 36:38
  And then you get into the conversation.
• 36:40
  I mean, this is like an anecdote.
• 36:42
  This is not necessarily based on big stats, but I've
• 36:46
  quite a few friends that are moving to parts of the world where childcare is cheaper because they can't afford to stay in cities where childcare is so expensive.
• 36:54
  And so it becomes like the relocation question is it's either both or one of us has to sacrifice our career to also be able to be a parent.
• 37:03
  Neither of us want to resent each other.
• 37:04
  So let's move somewhere where we can afford it.
• 37:06
  That's wild.
• 37:07
  The conversation 20 years ago was so, so different.
• 37:11
  And obviously, yeah.
• 37:13
  There's, you know, very different gender dynamics now when it comes to giving birth and having kids.
• 37:18
  But it's harder than ever for people to leave a career.
• 37:22
  And we all know the impact financially long term.
• 37:24
  And also with that point, I mean, I think anecdotally, I similarly have friends who are leaving the city, leaving the UK.
• 37:31
  But there was actually...
• 37:33
  big paper done recently and the BBC reported on this that there's a big exodus of people leaving major cities to go to just cheaper areas because the cost of childcare but you think if you're making that decision you're then potentially moving away from friends your community your family so that also comes with a cost you know what I think is a sort of like is one kind of unspoken strand of this conversation I don't know if you felt this as well or if anyone listening has also grappled with this in a kind of like weird complex kind of guilt-ridden way but
• 38:01
  But I feel, because I'm 34 now and I'm surrounded by friends having kids, I have recently started to feel this really, like, ramping up of pressure to, if I'm not having kids right now, so if I'm making the decision that me and my partner don't want kids right now, we're focusing on our careers, I feel this added pressure to be really fucking successful right now.
• 38:26
  I feel the same.
• 38:26
  Because if I'm not having kids, because I'm doing...
• 38:29
  because I want to focus on my career.
• 38:31
  Well, I better be making that career fly.
• 38:33
  Otherwise, what am I doing?
• 38:36
  And I've really had it recently when a couple of very close friends got pregnant.
• 38:40
  And obviously I'm so happy for them.
• 38:41
  And, you know, my joy for them is kind of not part of it.
• 38:45
  But on a personal level, I did have this reckoning of being like, well, you know, I don't want that right now.
• 38:49
  That's not the decision I want to make.
• 38:51
  I'm happy in the decisions I'm making.
• 38:53
  But oh my God, what if I don't achieve the levels of success that I want
• 38:59
  in the period in which I've decided to focus on the career over having a family.
• 39:03
  What does that mean for me?
• 39:04
  Like, who am I then?
• 39:06
  Because, you know, I'm being a career woman.
• 39:08
  And then I suddenly felt so guilty because I'm then almost falling into and perpetuating the very rigid binary stereotype that a woman has to be either a career woman or a mother, which in itself is so reductive and so restrictive and...
• 39:24
  you know, so inherited from patriarchy, but I really feel it.
• 39:27
  And then I suddenly feel this like self-consciousness, like, can I justify this decision right now, if it is something I do want?
• 39:34
  And what happens if I don't get rich and successful enough?
• 39:37
  Do you get that?
• 39:38
  Yeah, I really do.
• 39:39
  And I think what,
• 39:41
  I also feel is selfish, which is not how I should feel.
• 39:46
  You know, I've also spoken to my boyfriend a lot about this.
• 39:48
  And we've sort of said things like, imagine if we put off the idea of having kids because we couldn't afford it financially or because it wasn't the right time or for whatever reason.
• 39:57
  Because for us, it's like, I love the idea of having as much time in my
• 40:04
  fear that as soon as I decide to, if I can have kids, it then means my career is down the toilet and I'm not earning money.
• 40:10
  I can't help but feel that, that, that pressure because also you hear all these moms talk about, you know, your priorities change and, you know, you think about things differently and you don't prioritize your career as much.
• 40:21
  And I'm, I know if that was what I was choosing to do and how I felt, I would be really proud of that because that is how I've evolved as a person.
• 40:29
  Yeah.
• 40:30
  But I really don't want to lose how much I love my career.
• 40:33
  Oh, my God, totally.
• 40:34
  So I feel that.
• 40:35
  And then I also feel like if I look at the things I want to do right now in the next three years, it's things like I want to spend more time with my boyfriend, just us two.
• 40:43
  I want to go on lovely holidays.
• 40:44
  I want to do things that we can't do when you have kids.
• 40:47
  So, again, it's like, will I?
• 40:48
  I want to buy a flashy car.
• 40:49
  But will I then look back and be like, oh, I prioritize, you know, it's, yeah.
• 40:53
  So I feel all of those things and more.
• 40:56
  And I hate that it feels like this selfish decision.
• 40:59
  Which is really not at all.
• 41:01
  We also have every right to make those decisions if that's what we want.
• 41:04
  And it's not selfish.
• 41:05
  And people that choose to be child free are not selfish.
• 41:08
  No.
• 41:08
  But it's so ingrained.
• 41:10
  interesting because I just think it just goes to show we are both like sitting here with like you know the stats at our fingertips both I'd say hardcore feminists you know thinking this from a feminist lens from a women's empowerment lens and still we feel at a visceral level the guilt the shame all the stuff that
• 41:28
  patriarchy hands to us around motherhood and and the choices that women make and i'm sorry there are not men sitting around on podcast having this conversation around their guilt around parenthood and they're just not at a body level i feel these things and i feel the shame and i feel like god am i doing the right thing that perennial question that kind of i think it's hung over me hangs over all of us that our whole lives what does it mean to live a good life and
• 41:52
  And what does it mean for me to live a good life?
• 41:54
  Like, what should I be doing?
• 41:56
  I have to kind of pull myself away from this, this shame piece and be like, okay, no, these are choices that you do get to make.
• 42:02
  And that you, you know, feminists have, you know, we stand on the shoulders of giants of women who came before us who fought for us to have the right to make these choices, and to prioritize as on our terms, as opposed to in accordance to a
• 42:15
  timeline set for us by a society set up for by and with men's interest at heart okay i think we should move on to a topic that really piqued my interest when you mentioned it to me the other day which is surrogacy which feels like a kind of curveball to this conversation although obviously it's so related yes this is a big conversation we will get to that after the break but first we've just got a quick word from today's sponsor
• 42:42
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• 43:13
  And thanks Generate for making this episode of The Curve Weekly possible.
• 43:18
  I would love us to touch on a topic that you have made me get obsessed with over the past few days as we've been preparing for this.
• 43:25
  Yeah.
• 43:26
  Which was not really front of mind for me at all, but it's surrogacy.
• 43:29
  I know.
• 43:29
  Because you keep sending me all these articles about surrogacy.
• 43:32
  I was at Fringe and I was like sending, because, okay, so for context, I got on the train, Cameron Diaz, there's a photo of her in the hospital with her third child having a baby at 53.
• 43:42
  And I was looking at all the comments and I was looking through the post.
• 43:45
  I thought, oh, this is just amazing.
• 43:47
  What great timing.
• 43:48
  Perfect for our podcast.
• 43:49
  And then what I didn't realize, and I only knew because it wasn't in the headline and it wasn't in the story, is that people were commenting this is the third time she's used surrogacy.
• 43:59
  So what appears to have – she looks like she's given birth naturally because the photo is her in a hospital room.
• 44:03
  Oh, she's in a hospital gown as well.
• 44:05
  Yeah, but it was birth via surrogacy.
• 44:08
  And so I went down a total rabbit hole and didn't realize that this was, you know, it's obviously used for various different reasons depending on the couple.
• 44:16
  But there are agencies, like there's one called Delivering Dreams based in Ukraine, where women are earning $18,000 average USD a year for carrying drugs.
• 44:26
  Wow.
• 44:27
  And then they're given bonuses if they're having twins.
• 44:29
  And, you know, it's a whole – there is a whole industry of people paying for surrogacy that I just kind of didn't even really knew existed.
• 44:38
  I feel like I, like, notionally knew about it because you see these – like, Meghan Trainor recently used a surrogate.
• 44:45
  And was really lambasted online.
• 44:46
  And she, it's really point how she talks about it.
• 44:48
  She was like, I knew, she's had two kids naturally herself.
• 44:51
  And then he used a surrogate for her third.
• 44:52
  And she was like, I was so scared of what the public would say.
• 44:55
  Because I knew they would accuse me of like, essentially like outsourcing the labor of labor.
• 45:01
  to another body and like there's so much nuance to that and there's so and she was just so scared of the like court of public opinion um and her husband was like let them say what they like and she ended up she released a picture of her the new baby because she was like i the hospital they were like basically her pr was like the hospital could basically leak this so you either take control of the story which is a whole conversation about like celebrities and privacy
• 45:23
  But I thought it was, so I kind of, I'd read the discourse around that and her and like the questions that I'd raised.
• 45:28
  She said it was for health reasons, which is completely obviously like legitimate and why a lot of people do resort to surrogacy or utilize a surrogate.
• 45:37
  But what I didn't realize, so notionally it was floating there, but what I didn't realize until you inundated me...
• 45:43
  I know, I took so many screenshots of people's comments and stuff.
• 45:46
  It was so fascinating.
• 45:47
  But what I didn't realize was how much of a booming industry it is and how much it's growing.
• 45:51
  Because you told me a stat before.
• 45:52
  No, it's crazy.
• 45:53
  It is growing exponentially and it's set to grow even more in the next couple of years.
• 45:57
  Yeah, so this was the part that I, because I was just looking into it and I started reading a Times article and then I went down a total rabbit hole and realized this industry globally is expected to grow 10 times by 2032 to 129 billion.
• 46:13
  There is, yeah, it's really interesting because there's parts of the world where you can pay, like commercially pay someone to carry your baby.
• 46:21
  There's parts of the world where you can do it as a, I can never say this word.
• 46:25
  Like altruistic.
• 46:26
  Yes.
• 46:26
  Like in the UK, you can't pay for someone to be sorry about, but you can, someone can do it.
• 46:31
  So you can pay for their costs, things like doctors.
• 46:34
  Yeah, and their accommodation, et cetera.
• 46:36
  Yeah, but you're not giving them a fee like being on a salary.
• 46:38
  Whereas there are places like Ukraine where women are choosing this as a career path.
• 46:45
  And I was looking at this website.
• 46:47
  It's called...
• 46:49
  Actually, crazy.
• 46:50
  I was like listening.
• 46:51
  I was actually looking at a bunch of testimonials from women who have been surrogates.
• 46:55
  And the agency is called Delivering Dreams and it's in Ukraine.
• 46:59
  And yeah, there was just all these stories around women who have been paid to carry...
• 47:06
  children, you know, it's hard to apply.
• 47:08
  If someone has to have given birth naturally before, there's lots of criteria.
• 47:12
  So you kind of just assume that it's easier to do than it is.
• 47:15
  It's actually not.
• 47:16
  There's like a lot of hot involved.
• 47:18
  But this article was particularly interesting because it was around when the Russia-Ukraine war was kicking off.
• 47:24
  And as a part of their contracts, a lot of these women were being relocated to different parts of Ukraine, being away from their families.
• 47:32
  And the head of this agency, Delivering Dreams, was having to make the decision of do we cross these women into Poland, where if they gave birth to those kids in Poland, the surrogates are the legal mothers.
• 47:44
  Whereas if they stay in Ukraine, you know, a lot of the people and the couples that were paying for it were based in the U.S.,
• 47:51
  And they were paying for it through these Ukraine agencies because it's cheaper.
• 47:54
  In the U.S., it's like sometimes $150,000 to $200,000 for someone to carry a baby.
• 47:59
  Whereas in Ukraine, it's a lot cheaper.
• 48:02
  But there's all these – and you know that thing – I was going to say, I sent you a story the other day that just keeps popping off my feed.
• 48:09
  It's a woman surrogate in America who the couple who is paying for the surrogate.
• 48:15
  asked for her to terminate the pregnancy because the child was found to have a medical issue, something to do with their heart, I think.
• 48:21
  And she refused on religious grounds to get the abortion.
• 48:25
  She was like, I just can't.
• 48:26
  And she's been kind of funded by this Christian organization now.
• 48:29
  And she's basically refused to have the termination.
• 48:31
  Is now, I think, has given birth or is giving birth to the child, which then has to go through a lot of medical procedures, which the biological couple have to pay for.
• 48:41
  But the woman now wants to fight for custody of the child and is being financially backed by this Christian organization.
• 48:47
  So it is wild.
• 48:49
  There's obviously a lot of stuff here, right?
• 48:52
  Like, you know, these women are signing contracts, especially if it's a commercial arrangement.
• 48:56
  Yeah, which in America it would be.
• 48:57
  Yeah, where it's almost like their body is no longer...
• 49:01
  theirs and so a lot of the women who have gone to do it I mean a lot of it is financial reasons there was one woman in this particular article who she basically was earning four times the amount that she was earning as a school teacher by becoming a surrogate so the things that she would have been able to pay for for her family obviously it completely would have changed her life there's so many different women that this article followed I actually might link it in the podcast show notes if you want to read it because it's
• 49:27
  really fascinating.
• 49:28
  I want to go back and read this.
• 49:29
  You know what I also found really interesting about this topic area was how this obviously also cuts across...
• 49:36
  the clampdown on LGBTQA plus rights.
• 49:41
  Because in Italy, for example, you know, there's a more right-wing government.
• 49:44
  They have absolutely banned surrogacy.
• 49:47
  So they declared it a universal crime.
• 49:50
  And the law makes it an offence for Italians to have surrogate babies abroad, even in countries where it is legal to do so.
• 49:57
  And it's punishable by up to two years in jail and a fine of up to 1 million euros.
• 50:02
  Yeah.
• 50:03
  And this is obviously, you know, means for a couple that, for a gay couple, how, you know, for two men having a child, this basically precludes them from being able to do that.
• 50:13
  So they can know all they can do is adopt.
• 50:15
  So again, it becomes a policy that forwards a particularly like hard line, I guess kind of right wing agenda.
• 50:22
  But it's not something I would ever have thought of.
• 50:25
  I guess it's not like firsthand as being, yeah, as being a kind of part of that conversation.
• 50:29
  Would you get a surrogate?
• 50:31
  Oh, it's so – I was so – before I read this article, the one that I was talking about in The Times, I was having a conversation with my boyfriend about it on the weekend because I – it's – God, I feel so weird talking about this.
• 50:45
  The only reason that I started questioning it, and I was playing devil's advocate with him to see what his response would be.
• 50:51
  When I was reading the comments in this article –
• 50:54
  Someone commented saying, what is the difference in women being universal carriers?
• 51:00
  The men don't have to carry a baby.
• 51:02
  They become fathers because they use women to carry the baby to give birth.
• 51:07
  And I thought, that's such an interesting point.
• 51:10
  In the weekend, I messaged Emma saying, God, I mean, I understand the idea of these.
• 51:15
  And I also need to be careful what I say with this because...
• 51:18
  As you mentioned, Meghan Trainor, for example, coming out, and she said that that was for health reasons.
• 51:24
  We will never know why people are using surrogates, whether it's for health reasons, whether it's because they don't want their own body to go through it.
• 51:31
  It might be for work reasons.
• 51:33
  There's so many things, right, and that's private and that will probably never, ever, ever be public.
• 51:37
  The stories we're seeing about surrogacy generally are famous people because it's not becoming, you know, someone's not going to do an article on Sally down the road who's decided she's a surrogate.
• 51:48
  So a lot of the conversation then comes back to people assuming that women are outsourcing the idea of carrying a baby because they don't want to do it.
• 51:58
  And the wealth divide of people who can afford to do that is then preying on people who can't afford to live or look after their own families.
• 52:06
  So they're using their bodies to go in.
• 52:08
  And I, in the weekend, before I read this Times article, I thought,
• 52:12
  I kind of understand why people are doing it.
• 52:15
  I'm terrified of the idea of being pregnant.
• 52:18
  Also, it made me question, I was actually asking and speaking to a doctor about it on the weekend, saying what are the ongoing health impacts of someone carrying a child?
• 52:27
  Does it impact their life expectancy?
• 52:29
  Does it change their personality, their health, all of that?
• 52:33
  What is it?
• 52:34
  Is it just in the nine months or ten months that you're pregnant or is it ongoing?
• 52:39
  Because for me that is –
• 52:41
  quite a part of the conversation if someone is negatively impacting someone's health in a long term capacity i think that's where i wouldn't feel comfortable because there's some woman on this on this website who are saying they love being pregnant they love being pregnant my mom had both me and my sister she was like it was the best thing ever i loved it i'd do it again and i'm like really i'm like you just don't remember the pain and she's like emma you weren't there um
• 53:07
  I loved it.
• 53:08
  So I think for some people...
• 53:09
  So that's the thing.
• 53:10
  Some people love being pregnant.
• 53:11
  But a lot of people...
• 53:12
  But a lot of people don't.
• 53:13
  And they're the ones that often are...
• 53:15
  I also think it just...
• 53:15
  Turning to pregnancy.
• 53:16
  A conversation that we definitely have another day.
• 53:18
  But just around the... We too seldom discuss just how big a deal it is for women to be pregnant.
• 53:26
  Like the health... Like how women feel during that period.
• 53:30
  The impact it has on people's health.
• 53:31
  You know, I've got friends who in their first trimester, they are throwing up every single day.
• 53:35
  They are feeling terrible.
• 53:36
  They're...
• 53:37
  but it's kind of like the under-discussed thing.
• 53:38
  Like women are just supposed to just like crack on things.
• 53:40
  You know, you post the sonogram pictures and then suddenly like, oh my God, baby's born.
• 53:43
  In between that is, you know, can be huge amounts of sickness, you know, damage your own health, a potentially,
• 53:50
  huge operation if you have a c-section or you know there's loads of complications that potentially happen with vaginal birth so i just think we just don't have a loud enough conversation as a society about the actual like health ramifications of pregnancy i mean add on to that that i think more than 60 percent of maternity wards in the uk are deemed unsatisfactory
• 54:10
  We just don't care about women's health, particularly pregnant women's health.
• 54:13
  So I think it's part of a bigger conversation that we, as a society, really need to be having.
• 54:18
  And that's why I always think those people in the comments who are making any sort of judgment about a woman's choice with regards to her fertility journey, if she chooses to do that, you have no idea what someone's going through personally.
• 54:29
  And I think as a society, we need to get much better at helping women at all stages, helping couples, helping people at all stages of that journey.
• 54:38
  A lot of people feel as though asking somebody else to carry a child simply because you're trying to outsource something that you don't want to do is wrong.
• 54:49
  That's what most people in the comments were saying.
• 54:52
  I can see.
• 54:52
  Which I completely understand.
• 54:54
  No, same, same, same.
• 54:55
  But then what is the difference?
• 54:57
  You go to places, you know, we spoke about going to different parts of the world where childcare is cheaper and you're outsourcing childcare, you're outsourcing cooking, cleaning, all the other things you don't want to do.
• 55:07
  It always tends to fall on women.
• 55:10
  That is, you know, say you're paying 600 pounds a month for someone to live in at your house who has left their family on the other side of the world because it's a better opportunity for them to earn.
• 55:18
  They have to leave their kids with their...
• 55:20
  often with grandparents, they then grow up like their kids growing up without them.
• 55:24
  They've had to make this choice to be in-house help.
• 55:28
  That's damaging in ways, you know, but they're choosing to.
• 55:31
  It's like how far do you thread it back?
• 55:33
  Like even if you think about someone that is like a painter as a job and you're inhaling fumes and that negatively impacts your health or you're a hairdresser or you're a cleaner.
• 55:41
  Like there's so many different careers.
• 55:44
  Also, they're a laborer.
• 55:45
  Like you are actively using your body.
• 55:47
  And it's not necessarily –
• 55:49
  helping or having positive health.
• 55:52
  So I guess my thing is surrogacy has been so demonized and a lot of people are throwing judgment on these people that are choosing to pay to have that outsource.
• 56:01
  But what is the difference in outsourcing other things that you don't want to do that other people have to put their body on the line for?
• 56:06
  I mean, I just think it's –
• 56:07
  I think it always tends to go back to one thing.
• 56:09
  It's women doing it.
• 56:11
  And therefore, society loads in with judgment.
• 56:14
  I really think that actually, I didn't think this before.
• 56:16
  And now I think it having this conversation.
• 56:19
  It's so steeped in misogyny.
• 56:21
  Because I think we feel as a society...
• 56:23
  in a patriarchal world that we live in, that we have the right to continually judge women's choices no matter what they do, particularly as they pertain to motherhood and bodies and what we do with our body.
• 56:33
  Think of the stigma that has existed around sex work for so long.
• 56:37
  We know historically, I think there's been a disproportionate number of women working in the sex work industry over men.
• 56:42
  Again, highly stigmatized.
• 56:44
  What women choose to do with their bodies is always, has always been such a source of scrutiny.
• 56:53
  And I think actually, yeah, having this conversation, I'm like, sorry, because he feels like it kind of is another piece in that puzzle.
• 56:58
  Because imagine if men had to give birth, they would have found a way to outsource it.
• 57:01
  I'm sorry.
• 57:02
  But like, if your penis split in two when you give birth, it's true.
• 57:08
  Like they, you know.
• 57:09
  They'd be outsourcing that shit from day one.
• 57:11
  So like, and I, God, I think I personally wouldn't do it because I know how much people would judge for it.
• 57:17
  They would.
• 57:18
  It doesn't matter what reason you did it.
• 57:20
  But I just I think there's it's really fascinating to me that there is a lot of money being made in this space.
• 57:29
  And I think that it's going to become more normal.
• 57:31
  I think that I think that what we're seeing in the same way that, you know, plastic surgery is now trickled down to being way more common.
• 57:38
  But it's been done for years.
• 57:40
  So long.
• 57:41
  Yeah.
• 57:41
  I think that we're seeing a lot of celebrities use surrogates.
• 57:44
  And I would say in 10 years time that it's going to be a more normalized industry that people use, not just... Well, I guess it's part of like the kind of underlying thread of this conversation is that people generally, you know, across society are...
• 57:58
  leaving it later to have children compared to what we did historically.
• 58:02
  And I guess with that comes the potential of it being harder to then have children naturally.
• 58:09
  And so all these other routes, like from IVF, egg freezing, IVF, surrogacy, all these other
• 58:17
  kind of the fertility industry, the child rearing, not child rearing, what is it?
• 58:23
  I always tell us child rearing.
• 58:24
  The baby industry is, of course, going to continue to grow because the demand for it, presumably the technology is growing one, but also the demand is going to go up.
• 58:33
  There's a report done by Tommy's, which is the UK's largest pregnancy and baby charity.
• 58:39
  And they released a paper suggesting, widely consumed popular media downplays the impact of age on fertility and glamorizes pregnancy at advanced ages, with rare or no mention of ART donor, which is eggs like donor eggs or sperm, or related health risks.
• 58:54
  Now it really pissed me off reading that, because I actually think it's wonderful that we're getting better, particularly the media is getting better at celebrating motherhood, and like, you know, Sienna Miller's just had a baby, her third baby, I think she's like 42, right?
• 59:05
  Anne Hathaway, pregnant.
• 59:06
  At 44, yeah.
• 59:07
  Sienna was 44.
• 59:08
  She had her pregnant for third baby.
• 59:10
  She had her second baby at 42.
• 59:11
  I think it's a positive thing that the media is celebrating rather than critiquing these women.
• 59:17
  I mean, seeing all these women having kids older is amazing.
• 59:20
  It's amazing.
• 59:21
  Especially because...
• 59:22
  if I was to be able to have kids older, I would be able to afford the kind of life I would want as a mother.
• 59:27
  And I think that for me, seeing all these women doing that is really exciting.
• 59:31
  And it makes me feel like full of hope that I don't have to prioritize or deprioritize one for the other.
• 59:38
  Ideally, like the dream would be that I can still have a career I love and thrive in, while also being a parent.
• 59:44
  But I know for a fact that
• 59:46
  Now I wouldn't be able to do that.
• 59:48
  And I think that that comes with having money and being able to afford help or outsourcing.
• 59:53
  And yeah, I wouldn't have that right now.
• 59:56
  Totally.
• 59:56
  And I completely agree.
• 59:57
  For me, I feel so validating seeing really successful, powerful women choosing motherhood later in life.
• 1:00:04
  I guess what the report...
• 1:00:06
  highlighted and what I guess is a frustrating reality is that what we don't talk about as much as the route it took to get there.
• 1:00:12
  Well this is what I was about to say is that a lot of these people have a lot of money to be able to throw at their fertility extension from a timeline perspective, access to the best doctors, access to yeah a surrogacy if that is kind of the route someone takes.
• 1:00:28
  It once again becomes money question.
• 1:00:30
  So yes we may be seeing more celebs having
• 1:00:32
  children later in life, but they also have the means to be able to pursue all routes to achieving that.
• 1:00:38
  And I guess that's a, I found it very jarring to read an article that highlighted that because I was like, no, I don't want to, I don't want to engage with that.
• 1:00:45
  But I also do understand that is quite a valid point.
• 1:00:49
  And again, it's kind of often comes back to being a money question.
• 1:00:52
  As we begin to close the conversation, I do think it's also worth us just acknowledging that in the background of this conversation is a discussion that feels like so prominent for like everyone now.
• 1:01:07
  And that is just the crisis in dating that is meant that one of the big reasons that people are leaving it later to have kids.
• 1:01:13
  Yes, it's career and it's all the things we've spoken about.
• 1:01:16
  It's also just because dating feels like it's in an absolute tailspin.
• 1:01:20
  And so people aren't meeting.
• 1:01:22
  We know that people aren't in relationships as frequently.
• 1:01:25
  People aren't meeting someone with whom they actually want to have children.
• 1:01:28
  And if they are, they're meeting them later.
• 1:01:30
  So I think there's also that there are lots of things that are within your control up to a certain point in terms of your kind of finances, your financial know-how, the choices you make, whether you get fertility tests.
• 1:01:39
  There's lots of things that we've talked about that are kind of within your control.
• 1:01:42
  Meeting someone with whom you want to have children with feels so difficult because that's not within your control.
• 1:01:48
  You can go on 101 dates and still not meet someone that you really like and want to be with.
• 1:01:54
  And that I find a really difficult part of this conversation because for anyone who's listening who's like, I cannot.
• 1:02:01
  I want this.
• 1:02:02
  I want all these things.
• 1:02:03
  I wanted it for quite a few years.
• 1:02:04
  And pets can afford it.
• 1:02:06
  And I can afford it.
• 1:02:07
  Exactly.
• 1:02:07
  They have all the things that we've spoken about.
• 1:02:09
  But what they can't find is a partner that then they want to do it in a partner.
• 1:02:13
  Obviously you can do it solo, but the way they prefer to do it, be in a partnership.
• 1:02:17
  That, you know, what do you do then?
• 1:02:19
  Because that's, you know, and that's an issue facing some people say, I mean, the Atlantic, the Atlantic staff writer Faith Hill is just the best writer on dating.
• 1:02:28
  And she has called this like the great romance slump.
• 1:02:31
  It kind of defines this era of this like dearth of,
• 1:02:35
  of romance, the kind of crisis in dating.
• 1:02:37
  So I think it's worth touching on that.
• 1:02:38
  I mean, there was research recently by Pew Research Center, which found that roughly four in 10 adults, ages between 25 to 54, so that's 38%, were unpartnered.
• 1:02:50
  That is neither married nor living with a partner.
• 1:02:52
  And this share is up sharply from 29% in 1990.
• 1:02:58
  So we've seen a notable growth in the number of people who are unpartnered
• 1:03:04
  at, you know, at that kind of age that we historically people would be looking to have children.
• 1:03:09
  So like, this is a massive factor in the, in the conversation.
• 1:03:11
  And I think, yeah, cause there's, there's choosing to not have kids.
• 1:03:15
  There's wanting them and not being able to meet someone.
• 1:03:19
  There's meeting the right person and not being able to afford it.
• 1:03:21
  There's so many different reasons why less babies are being born.
• 1:03:26
  And so much of this conversation is put on a lot of, you know,
• 1:03:30
  oh, like woman and choosing to have kids later.
• 1:03:32
  It's like there's a lot that is out of our control too.
• 1:03:35
  And whether or not someone is choosing to or not choosing to, when you meet the right person is huge.
• 1:03:42
  And I've seen, and this again is like anecdotally, I've seen a lot of people who are –
• 1:03:48
  kind of comfortable with the idea that if they have kids, they're either happy to have them by themselves.
• 1:03:54
  They're happy to have them with someone, even if they might be 80% sure of that person, they're choosing to have a kid with them because they want that.
• 1:04:02
  And they're not putting so much pressure on the relationship piece because they want to prioritize having a kid.
• 1:04:06
  I have people that are the total opposite who, unless they found the absolute perfect person, won't consider having kids.
• 1:04:13
  There's so many different factors that play into it.
• 1:04:18
  Money.
• 1:04:18
  Because I think to have, you know, I've got to similarly have friends who are considering, do I do it solo?
• 1:04:24
  And it often comes back to being a money question.
• 1:04:27
  Can I afford to?
• 1:04:29
  Can I afford mortgage or rent solo and with a child?
• 1:04:32
  And with, you know, can I afford to take the time off work?
• 1:04:35
  Can I, would I get matly?
• 1:04:37
  Like, can I afford the childcare if I'm paying out of one pocket?
• 1:04:40
  Can I afford...
• 1:04:40
  All the costs, can I afford to take them on as an individual rather than having it shared across two people?
• 1:04:46
  You know, for some people that is possible.
• 1:04:49
  Amazing.
• 1:04:50
  But again, for others, it's a money question that then might be kind of precluding them from being able to do that on their own.
• 1:04:58
  100%.
• 1:04:58
  I mean, I could not imagine being able to afford to do...
• 1:05:03
  I mean, not even to think about, like, emotionally.
• 1:05:05
  I think single... People that raise kids by themselves are superheroes.
• 1:05:09
  Superhuman.
• 1:05:10
  Like, actual superheroes.
• 1:05:11
  Yeah, amazing.
• 1:05:12
  It's incredible.
• 1:05:13
  In a society that does not support people being parents.
• 1:05:17
  Like, we have to remember that.
• 1:05:19
  Like, that is also the backdrop to this conversation alongside the perils of dating, is that we don't live in a society that is actively supporting...
• 1:05:27
  parenthood generally and motherhood specifically.
• 1:05:29
  But then back to the dating piece.
• 1:05:32
  Yeah, say you don't meet somebody by 39, 40 and you really want a kid.
• 1:05:38
  That's the kind of thing you're also having to think about now in terms of saving up and investing towards dating.
• 1:05:45
  fertility treatments potentially.
• 1:05:46
  How big is a savings pot we're supposed to be?
• 1:05:49
  Well, that's what I mean.
• 1:05:50
  And I think that's what is happening is that a lot of people, because they want to prioritize being a mom or a parent, and I think that what then they're doing is having to put on hold, putting money towards anything else.
• 1:06:01
  So it'll be really like, yeah, I mean, it is.
• 1:06:04
  It's so much of it comes back to finances, and I think they need so much more support because if you want to see more women giving birth,
• 1:06:12
  you're going to need to find ways to support them financially.
• 1:06:14
  I know.
• 1:06:15
  We can't keep talking about falling birth rates in the press.
• 1:06:20
  Some people, it's not a decision.
• 1:06:22
  Some world leaders are talking about ad nauseum.
• 1:06:24
  I'm like...
• 1:06:25
  It's a policy.
• 1:06:26
  I think there's a lot of factors.
• 1:06:28
  There's social, there's economic, cultural, there's a lot of things playing into it.
• 1:06:31
  But if I was in government, if I was leader of a country thinking we wouldn't need to address birth rates, one of the first things I would do is like, how do we incentivize people to have children?
• 1:06:44
  We give more childcare.
• 1:06:46
  We don't punish people for having children.
• 1:06:48
  We make our hospitals.
• 1:06:50
  We put way more money into supporting maternity units.
• 1:06:53
  I also think it comes back to education, doesn't it?
• 1:06:55
  Because we should be having these conversations from like a youngish age of like, how do you set yourself up financially for the future that you want?
• 1:07:02
  And what does that look like in terms of your savings if you want to be parents?
• 1:07:06
  I mean, maybe if at 20 years old someone said like, do you want to save for parents?
• 1:07:08
  I've been like...
• 1:07:09
  But it should be similar to a pension or retirement savings.
• 1:07:13
  Imagine if you just had to and it was like the employer paid into it and so did you and men and women did it.
• 1:07:20
  And maybe it's like if you choose not to have kids, you get that money put directly into retirement.
• 1:07:24
  Or if you don't want to have kids, you can just opt out of it.
• 1:07:26
  But it's also an option if you do.
• 1:07:28
  I just think if it was helped from an earlier age and both – Just to get you thinking about it.
• 1:07:32
  But both the individual and the employer was putting money –
• 1:07:39
  You know, like you want to employ women and like, of course you want women in the workplace.
• 1:07:43
  If you're a two or three person business and all three people go on maternity leave, the business crumbles because you can't afford to pay.
• 1:07:49
  You know, it's like there's so many issues.
• 1:07:51
  It's not just the personal.
• 1:07:52
  And I wonder if there was some kind of a system where…
• 1:07:55
  People were encouraged to put money aside and invested or invested.
• 1:08:00
  And that went towards childcare.
• 1:08:01
  It went towards like paying for things.
• 1:08:04
  I don't know.
• 1:08:04
  I just, I think that, yeah, you're right.
• 1:08:06
  You get to 30 and all of a sudden you're hit with all of the biggest big ticket items, whether it's buying a house, getting married, having kids, retiring, all the things bloody come at one time.
• 1:08:16
  And we've started to look at the retirement piece, but there's so much more that could be done to help us all put ourselves in a position to – because there is – if we're still banging on about investing in money, you know, 10 years on and people haven't heard of it, there's – you know, we're still speaking to a microcosm of society.
• 1:08:34
  Like if there was something that was led by countries and it was just like no one –
• 1:08:40
  I don't know, maybe it would be – there would be less financial barriers for people giving birth and wanting to be parents because it was something that was thought about not as an afterthought or not in the couple of years where you're considering it.
• 1:08:54
  You know what?
• 1:08:54
  What?
• 1:08:55
  We once again end the episode talking about policy.
• 1:08:57
  On fucking policy.
• 1:08:58
  I knew.
• 1:08:58
  So last week I was horrified when I listened back to our OnlyFans episode, which was great.
• 1:09:03
  It was so juicy.
• 1:09:04
  But I was so horrified retrospectively that I would round up a really interesting conversation being like, you know what we need?
• 1:09:09
  So I think, we need better regulation.
• 1:09:12
  The government needs to step in.
• 1:09:13
  Legitimate point.
• 1:09:14
  I definitely stand by that.
• 1:09:16
  But like, was that the funnest thing to end on?
• 1:09:18
  But I'm also just like, here we are again.
• 1:09:20
  And here we are again.
• 1:09:22
  And you're ending our chat being like, no.
• 1:09:24
  Okay, I've got a better one.
• 1:09:25
  I've got an idea.
• 1:09:26
  Yeah.
• 1:09:26
  I was thinking about this.
• 1:09:28
  How amazing would it be if we could bring back communal living, bring back putting all the babies with one nanny, bring back the idea of there needs to be innovative business ideas where there's like maybe you rent a house and within that apartment block, whatever, there's a creche that everyone can take their baby to in the morning.
• 1:09:47
  Then there will be so many mothers listening being like, I don't want to take my baby to a creche.
• 1:09:50
  Wait, why?
• 1:09:51
  Because lots of people want to look after...
• 1:09:53
  But I guess my point is, we need to think, wait, let's start a business.
• 1:09:58
  You know, we need to be more innovative.
• 1:09:59
  My friend Charmin has been a long-time proppern of communal living, and I am so with her.
• 1:10:03
  If I could pay for rent and also childcare in the same breath, how good?
• 1:10:07
  There's a co-working space.
• 1:10:08
  I think I saw something about this a while ago.
• 1:10:09
  There's one in New York.
• 1:10:11
  Yeah, that was open.
• 1:10:12
  That was part co-working, part childcare.
• 1:10:14
  Amazing.
• 1:10:15
  It's beautiful.
• 1:10:16
  You have such an obvious demand.
• 1:10:19
  Next business?
• 1:10:19
  Yeah.
• 1:10:20
  Let's do it.
• 1:10:20
  On the side, little hustle on the side.
• 1:10:22
  I genuinely have thought at the point in which if I become a mother, I'd do it.
• 1:10:26
  I can't do anything in half measures.
• 1:10:28
  I'll go all in.
• 1:10:28
  You best believe I'll be starting campaigns.
• 1:10:30
  I think me too.
• 1:10:30
  I'll be starting businesses to do.
• 1:10:31
  Yeah, there'll be a whole podcast.
• 1:10:33
  That's always why I can't enter into that chat too soon because it'll be so all-consuming.
• 1:10:37
  But at that point, yeah, because it's such an obvious, such a gap in the market.
• 1:10:40
  And there's also like money needs to be spent on that.
• 1:10:43
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:10:43
  Let's create the solution.
• 1:10:44
  Okay, that's a business plan.
• 1:10:46
  That's way better than policy.
• 1:10:48
  Okay, so we've got a new business plan.
• 1:10:49
  And maybe if anyone's listening who's looking for a business idea, you could, you know, begin.
• 1:10:53
  Yeah, true.
• 1:10:53
  Pitch it.
• 1:10:54
  Maybe if anyone's got any good ideas.
• 1:10:55
  Let's do it.
• 1:10:56
  Okay, that's a way more.
• 1:10:57
  That's way more.
• 1:10:58
  That's a funner note to end on.
• 1:10:59
  So let's end on that.
• 1:11:00
  Yeah, perfect.
• 1:11:00
  Sophie, I loved this.
• 1:11:01
  That was great.
• 1:11:02
  This was a bit daunting and scary, but I ultimately feel hopeful.
• 1:11:05
  Me too.
• 1:11:06
  I still – About our business.
• 1:11:07
  I was about to say, I still feel like I still can't afford to be a mother.
• 1:11:11
  But with our communal living business.
• 1:11:12
  Yeah.
• 1:11:13
  And I will too.
• 1:11:14
  But also I just wanted to say this is a huge conversation with so many different pieces to it.
• 1:11:19
  And we've got a lot of people in our community who are mothers, who have chosen not to be mothers, who maybe want to be one day.
• 1:11:25
  If you have any thoughts on what we've spoken about and you would like to leave a voice note –
• 1:11:29
  It would be really cool to hear from you.
• 1:11:31
  So we'll link the hotline in the show notes.
• 1:11:34
  I feel like, yeah, if you feel comfortable writing something publicly, wherever you're listening, we would love to read a bunch of comments.
• 1:11:40
  But also if you wanted to leave a voice note, it would be really cool to hear people's thoughts on this episode.
• 1:11:44
  Because there's a lot to it.
• 1:11:46
  Yeah, same.
• 1:11:47
  Okay, so leave us some voice notes.
• 1:11:48
  That'd be fun.
• 1:11:49
  All right, Sophie.
• 1:11:50
  Have a great week, everyone.
• 1:11:51
  Bye.
• 1:11:51
  Bye.
• 1:11:51
  Have a nice week.
• 1:11:52
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• 1:11:54
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• 1:12:00
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• 1:12:04
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• 1:12:06
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• 1:12:07
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• 1:12:09
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• 1:12:13
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• 1:12:18
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• 1:12:30
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• 1:12:36
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• 1:12:45
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• 1:12:50
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• 1:12:56
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• 1:12:56
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