Latest / Tales From Aztlantis / Throwback Thursday: Hijacking History

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Throwback Thursday: Hijacking History · Tales From Aztlantis

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Representation matters.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: But as indigenous Chicano people, we can't just sit back and wait for mainstream media outlets to make it happen for us.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: And nor should we.
• 0:12
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• 0:27
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• 0:50
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• 0:57
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• 1:02
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• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Now, on with the show.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: You must excuse me.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: I've grown quite a bit.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: But you remember the lesson.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: A lesson in honesty.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: On June 25th, 2020, the academic journal Urban Review published a paper titled Early Pioneers of the Americas: The Role of the Olmecs in Urban Education and Social Studies Curriculum.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: In this paper, the authors proposed various ways that the Olmec civilization, one of Mesoamerica's oldest, could be incorporated into teaching social studies courses at the middle and high school levels.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: And while on the surface, this certainly sounds like a worthwhile endeavor, the paper wasted no time in introducing a pseudo-historical narrative of Mesoamerican culture and history.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Their paper begins.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: Africans showed their brilliance as they utilized cutting-edge technology like those used to build pyramids when they applied their skills in shipbuilding, as well as their understandings of geography and trade winds to cross the Atlantic Ocean, which was originally called the Ethiopian Ocean, and created a civilization and culture in La Venta, Mexico known as Olmec City.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much wrong with that sentence.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: By unquestioningly identifying the Olmec civilization as quote-unquote black African, the authors repeat a long-discredited pseudo-historical view promoted by the author Ivan Van Surdema in his book They Came Before Columbus, which was first published in 1976.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: And frequently repeated by Afrocentric extremists and hyper-diffusionist pseudo-scholars.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: In this version of history, African explorers visited Mesoamerica and brought civilization to its people.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: Needless to say, we found this misrepresentation of history troublesome.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: And my co-host and I co-wrote an open letter to the Urban Review asking them to reconsider the article.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: The letter reads as follows.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_03: A recent publication in the Urban Review Journal has come to our attention.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_03: The journal presents itself as one that deals with issues and ideas in education, so it was surprising to see their publication of the article entitled Early Pioneers of the Americas, The Role of the Olmecks in Urban Education and Social Studies curriculum by Greg Wigan, Annette Teesdale, Marsha J.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_03: Watson Vandever, and Shakia Talley Matthews.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: In their article, Wigan et al.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_03: peddled the long-discredited notion that the Olmyc were not indigenous Americans, but rather that they were black Africans who traversed the Atlantic Ocean millennia before Christopher Columbus.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_03: There are variations on the hypothesis, but the general idea is that Africans established or helped establish one of the oldest major civilizations in the Americas, the Omic, which scholars credit as being a major inspiration for the Mesoamerican indigenous cultures that followed.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: What we find surprising is that a publication that purports to be educational would publish an article that advocates the introduction of black Olmic curriculum in schools.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_03: Teaching baseless and erroneous claims, such as that the Omic were black Africans, is just as colonialist as the Eurocentric models that Afrocentrists rail against.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_03: Such claims regarding the Olmic are the result of outdated racial worldviews held by early European writers, many of whom never set foot in the Americas, combined with the Afrocentric ramblings of pseudo-scholars such as Ivan Van Certima and Clyde Winters, none of who are Mesoamerican specialists.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_03: The idea of black Olmyx is rooted in pseudo-historical revisionism and is not accepted by legitimate Mesoamerican scholars.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_03: It should be made clear that no archaeological, faunal, floral, genetic, or historical evidence exists to support the myth of black Olmyx.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, scholars such as Gabriel Haslip Vieira, Warren Barber, and Bernard Ortiz de Monteyano have published extensive research refuting Van Certema and the myth of the Black Olmyx.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_03: Proponents of this myth base their conclusions on superficial interpretations of the famous Olmic heads of Veracruz.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_03: These statues, they claim, bear physiognomic resemblance to Africans solely based on their broad noses and thick lips.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_03: The fact that the statues also resemble Mexico's indigenous people, along with the fact that broad noses and thick lips are not solely black African characteristics, is simply ignored.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_03: If these assertions were being made in the reverse by white authors about black African culture, those people would rightfully be castigated for their racist interpretations.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_03: But somehow, when it comes to Native Americans, especially if they are ancient and mysterious enough, it is okay to make these sort of outlandish claims.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: The long-running pseudo-historical television program about ancient aliens and ancient peoples is in this same vein.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_03: Sadly, with this proposition, what the adherents of this unfounded thesis assert is that indigenous peoples of the Americas received their foundational culture from black Africans, a belief that effectively robs Native Americans of their cultural patrimony.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, most of what Wigan et al.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: state in their piece does not support their claim, which they themselves admit is mostly quote-unquote suggestive.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_03: That is not how positive claims work.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_03: You must have actual facts and not just quotes from secondary sources posing as facts in order to make your case.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_03: The entire article is riddled with questionable sources that the authors lean on as primary evidence.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_03: However, upon closer examination, the cited evidence are actually quotes from secondary sources that are misinterpreted, noted as suggestive, or have been revealed to be completely incorrect.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: It would take an article-length paper to properly demonstrate the numerous errors made by Wigan et al.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: But let us explore at least one: the extensive use of secondary sources as primary sources.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: For example, here the authors quote Van Surtima.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: The African presence in the Olmec world demonstrated that the Africans first entered the Western hemisphere, not as chattels, not as property, not as merchandise, not as enslaved people, but as masters in control of their own destinies.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: They follow that quote with this statement.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: In spite of the above evidence, education and curriculum development literature are generally silent on the Olmex.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: What evidence are they referring to that Van Surtima made a claim linking Africans to Olmex?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: It seems extremely odd to have to say this about an article published in a peer-reviewed journal, but opinions are not facts and therefore not evidence.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Simply quoting the opinions of another author does not make that a supporting fact.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: You must follow up with actual evidence, and that is a key missing element in this entire piece.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Now, let us consider some of their sources.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: The authors that Wigan et al.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: choose to rely on are highly questionable.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: For instance, Ivan van Surtima, as mentioned above, was soundly refuted in the 1990s by Monteyano et al.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Surtima's predecessor, Harold G.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: Lawrence, who kickstarted the modern iteration of the Black Olmec hypothesis, had no advanced training in archaeology or history.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, his influential piece, African Explorers of the New World from 1962, introduces him as belonging to a group from Detroit, Michigan called the Association for the Study of Negro Life and History.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: Apparently, that's enough to make him a credible source on the prehistory of Native Americans.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: And finally, they cite Anu Mbantu, a British-born photojournalist who also does not have advanced training in Mesoamerican indigenous societies.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: Umbanto has written several self-published books with curious titles, such as The Ancient Black Hebrews and Arabs, and The Black Kings of Europe, 2019.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Sources can either make or break a thesis, and the ones in question here are the kind that usually get flagged during peer review.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now, we certainly agree that the history and legacy of African peoples in the Americas is still not sufficiently taught in schools.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: But we do children a disservice by advancing opinions as facts.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Promoting the idea that the Olmecs were black is more than simply poor scholarship.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: It is an erasure of the accomplishments of indigenous Mexicans.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Africa and Mexico are both home to fascinating civilizations, each with their own advancements in technology, linguistics, agriculture, and science.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: When we embrace the pseudo history of black Olmex, we trivialize and marginalize the legacies of both Africans and indigenous Mexicans.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Thus, in light of this major oversight, we ask that the Urban Review Journal retract the article by Wigan et al.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: and discontinue its promotion of black Olmex.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: As longtime ethnic studies researchers and educators ourselves, we would prefer to see accurate and far more meaningful scholarship that explores better ways of advancing education among urban youth.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly we can recognize the heritage of Africans and African Americans, as well as that of Afro-Mexicans, without promoting a distorted colonialist and fanciful version of history.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: In the words of Van Certima himself, you cannot really conceive how insulting it is to Native Americans to be told they were discovered.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: We agree with Certima on that point, but we would further add that it is just as equally insulting to be told that someone else gave your ancestors their culture.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: You cannot counter colonialist thought with colonialist pedagogy.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Sincerely, Curly Laboya and Ruben Aryano Lacateca, the Jimali Institute of Mesoamerican Arts.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now, a few weeks later, I was pleasantly surprised to receive the following notice in response to the letter that we had written.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: The editor-in-chief has retracted this article, Wigan et al.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: 2020, following concerns raised by readers.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_03: After post-publication peer review, it was found that the theory that Olmics were black Africans on which the lesson plan is based is not substantiated according to current Mesoamerican archaeology and genetic evidence.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_03: The authors have been offered to submit a revised manuscript updated with information based on current knowledge for further peer review.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: So while this was certainly a worthwhile victory against the forces of pseudo-historical fantasy, it serves as a reminder that we must remain vigilant in addressing claims that distort, trivialize, and defame the historical legacies of both indigenous and African people.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Simply put, the truth matters.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't remember when I first learned about the black Olmec.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_03: To be honest, like, you know, um as I've said before, when I was younger, when I was in my teens, um I used to love to go to the library um and you know research my history, my background.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_03: I would read up on you know the Maya, the uh Aztec, uh other indigenous populations in Mexico, uh, North America, the Inca, you know.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't think, you know, to the credit of my local neighborhood library, I don't think I ever encountered a single book on the Black Olmic.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_03: They did have stuff from um the ancient aliens guy, what's his name?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: Van Donegan and you know, stuff like that, um, which I was also interested in, you know, because it was different, it was curious, it was it kind of also touched upon my interests in in horror and the occult, you know, just wanting to know about these things that, you know, were supposed to be like forbidden or mysterious or whatever.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_03: But I don't remember ever, like at least not at that library, seeing anything, seeing Van Surtuma's book or anything that resembled black Olmic um, you know, sources of any sort.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't I don't know if it was the maybe it was you who introduced me to this.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_03: I honestly I don't remember when I first heard, but it's been a while.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, because we've talked about this topic for a number of years.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: I remember the the first time that I ever really saw it in um the mainstream was in the movie, uh John Singleton's movie Higher Learning.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really brief.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's two characters, one of them is played by Ice Cube, I don't remember the other actor, but they're hanging out in Ice Cube's, you know, his character's dorm room, and he has this wall full of books.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: And his friend's like, hey man, have you really read all these books?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: He says, Ah, most of them.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: So he like walks up and he's looking at the books on the shelf, and on the bookshelf is an Olmec head.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, at the time when I saw that, I was like, Oh, that's cool.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: They're giving props to like indigenous Mexicans, and like saying that we've got the same struggle, right?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like it didn't dawn on me that they were you know promoting this idea that no, the Olmecs were black, and that's why they have that there.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: I thought they were just this movie from oh man, it was the 1990s, mid mid-90s.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember this movie.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it came out after um Boys in the Hood.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was his second or third movie.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it makes sense that the Ice Cube would come out recently promoting this nonsense on Twitter and other social media, I guess.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I saw that.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: That was kind of unfortunate.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: And well, what's what's bizarre is it it runs the gamut.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: So this idea that the Olmecs were black, right?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: This which is not grounded in any sort of reality.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: There is no evidence whatsoever to back up this claim.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: But it's it's part of this larger perspective that's being pushed by Afrocentric pseudo-scholars and pseudo-historians.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, you you have something like, well, the Olmychs were black, and then, you know, you've got the black Hebrew Israelites and their stuff, you have the Nation of Islam, but then on the far, far end, like the extreme fringe of this movement, is this current idea that's being pushed that the slave trade never happened.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: That the slave trade is a hoax invented by the white man in order to hide the fact that the original Native people were actually blacks and that the uh what we call indigenous people they refer to as like Mongolian, Siberian no, no, not even Mongolian, Mongoloid.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: They call them Mongoloid Siberian invaders who teamed up with the white man to hide the fact that black people were the original Native Americans, and this is all based in the idea that the slave trade never occurred, and you'll see like this hashtag popping up that's like, where are the slave ships?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Where are the slaves?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, holy shit, man.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm but you know, that's the extreme.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: Although I've noticed on Facebook and different um social media uh pages, groups that support this idea in particular are like pretty popular.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: There's one page in particular that I looked at the other day, it has like 150,000 followers, and every single post is just related to the original indigenous people were black, and native people are fake, and they're just trying to foment this uh antagonism, like this fight between the two.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, what are you guys doing?
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: This is ridiculous.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, but but that's the extreme.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's the extreme fringe.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then you have something like we're discussing with, you know, Van Surdem's claim that the Olmec were black, and since he was a professor and he wrote this book, his claims are taken a little bit more seriously by.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Academia in general, because I've seen this claim pop up in ethnic studies courses in different universities.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: For example, here in Albuquerque, uh UNM, uh just a few years ago, uh, their Chicano Studies program was putting together this annual trip.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how long it's been happening, but they had this annual trip to Veracruz to in you know to research Afromexicanos, which is it's uh valid, right?
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Afro-Mexicanos deserve to have their history told.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: But the promotional material for this class, for this trip, you know, it said, you know, the black presence in Mexico and front and center was an Olmechead.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: An Olmechead, yeah.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, what the hell?
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I raised this issue with the university.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: I had different archaeologists and historians write letters of concern to the university asking them to reconsider how they're, you know, the material that they're putting out in regards to this class.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: And the response was I was called anti-black.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: So they didn't even address the issue that I raised.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: They just attacked my character because I was raising these these questions.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: So there's so much there, man.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I I think what it's doing is it's it's creating this um environment where people are afraid to question this stuff because they don't want to be called a racist, they don't want to be called anti-black.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: There's a really excellent book, um, I believe it's called The History Lesson by Mary Lefkowitz, I believe.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: And she writes about her experience as a college professor, and she taught ancient Greek history.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's she's an expert in in ancient Greece.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: And in her classes, people were bringing up, like, well, you know, the Greeks stole all of their shit from Egypt.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: From the Egyptians, right.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: And she's like, Where are you learning this from?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's not true.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it was another professor at the same university.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: And when she brought it up in a faculty meeting, they just attacked her.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like she almost lost her job, she was sued.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was this crazy thing that happened.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's sort of what's happening now.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: When you see this stuff taught at a university level, you know, I don't think people in the hist the history department, the anthropology department, archaeology, they might be afraid to be like, hey, this is actually not true.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, maybe we shouldn't be teaching.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_03: Well, especially if you're a white person, you don't want to be attacked by someone who is quote unquote a person of color, uh, or people who are quote unquote allies of that said individual.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_03: If and if you're targeted and and and labeled as a racist because you don't just go along with whatever nonsense is being spewed, you know, all of a sudden you find yourself uh as a persona non grata, you know, kind of like you know people within a certain tradition who are questioning these things.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um but there's just so much there to unpack.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, just in what you just said.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's it's really unfortunate that we have arrived at a place in our society where you know anyone's opinion is now taken as valid, no matter whether or not there are any facts to substantiate that opinion, especially if that opinion happens to be one that conforms to someone's political biases or inclinations, and and if they perceive it to be for the greater good, you know, it's we can empathize as as Chicano Mexicanos, people of color, if if you know, if if we want to subscribe to that uh appellation ourselves.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_03: We can we can empathize to the notion of wanting to uplift our own people, but I draw the line when it comes to doing it at the expense of someone else's culture.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I wouldn't you know claim that you know Amer American uh indigenous peoples traveled across the ocean like some people in the early Mexican movement did, right?
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_03: Because we have those folks and who claim that you know the it was it was the uh the ancestors of the Aztecas and the and those early people, maybe not necessarily the Olmec, right?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_03: But some of those people, the the Proto-American indigenous Atlant Atlantide, you know, societies that you know you know you have that narrative as well, that they're the ones that traveled to Egypt and taught the Egyptians everything that they know how to construct pyramids and taught taught them about the the singular god in in in teot with the ometeot.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_03: We've already kind of talked about this before.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, I could go that route too.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, this this works both ways.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_03: You know, as an indigenous person, as a Chicano Mehicano who has been in this road for many years, I can also say, hey, well, guess what?
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know, Egypt belongs to the Azteca, you know, our ancestors taught all of the Egyptians everything that they know.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_03: And and how's that gonna look?
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and let's get that taught in schools.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a history professor.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_03: Let's get yeah, I'm a I'm a I'm I'm a professor of history.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_03: I have I have the credentials to do it.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_03: If I wanted to write this book, I would I could be just like Van Certima.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_03: And and anyone that attacks me because I'm a person of color is by definition uh a bigot if they're if they're a person of color and if they're white, they're racist for challenging my claims, right?
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, how ludicrous does that sound?
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_03: But yet over here when we when we get it on the opposite end, it's is deemed as as a worthwhile proposition for some reason.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: I don't understand.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and then it's based on this idea that um, you know, it's all about self-esteem, right?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: So as long as it makes people feel good, then it's worth telling you know bullshit because it it makes people feel good.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: And we see the exact same thing.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you were just saying, there's parallels between this, the Afrocentric extremism, pseudo-history, and the pseudo-historical claims that were made by the MCRCA and the and the Mexical people that were passed off as traditional knowledge.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's there's this parallel.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I I get the argument, you know, the response to our uh podcast.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: Some people seem uh you know, most of the response has been fantastic, by the way, and thank you everybody for listening.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: But some are like, well, you shouldn't be saying these things because you know, yeah, the declaration of Quatemok might be might not be real, but it makes me feel good.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: So therefore I'm just gonna keep promoting it.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, well, I I think this is when you take that view, you're actually dishonoring the the legacy, the historical legacy of our people, because we have a real history, we have a real culture that's valid and important, and so do Africans.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: And when we make up stuff just to make people feel good, then one, you're you're erasing our actual accomplishments, but also you're it's kind of like you're infantilizing your own people because it's like, well, you guys can't handle the real history, but here's some bullshit that I made up that's gonna make you feel good about yourself.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: So let's uh embrace that with open arms.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: And it's also intellectual laziness, to be honest.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, let's let's call it what it is.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_03: You know, a lot of people, and and I hate to say it, it's true, I see it all the time as an instructor, that you know, people don't want to be bothered to read anything that has too many words in it, because whether they're they don't have the time to do it because they're working or what have you, and and that's fine, it's understandable.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_03: But if you're if you're not gonna take the time to actually read materials from people who have spent decades researching this stuff, right?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_03: You know, archaeologists who have spent decades down in La Venta, you know, looking at the Omic who have been in San Lorenzo for 30 years, you know, they're half of their life spent in in this one place researching, excavating, and analyzing and writing their analyses and publishing their findings, right?
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_03: You don't want to read this stuff.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe it's too academic, maybe it's too jargony, fine, but that does not give you the right to make stuff up because you don't have the time to read the material that's written by the people who are actually doing this work.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, that's a disservice not only to yourself, you're you're doing a disservice to the memory, as you were saying, of those indigenous ancestors, but you're also doing a disservice to your own community.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_03: And and and if you have children and you're teaching them this stuff, you're doing them a disservice, like what these people were trying to propose with this idea of implementing um the black omic mythology into social studies for K through 12.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_03: You're doing those children a disservice because you're not teaching them facts, you're teaching them that what makes you feel good is okay despite the facts, and that's not a good way to go on about in the real world because the real world operates using actual rules, you know?
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: And and at what point do you stop believing in Santa Claus?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like something makes you feel good, and I get it, you know.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: I like I like things that make me feel good too, but when you are willingly couching your beliefs in pure pseudoscience because it makes you feel good, that's just masturbation, you know?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: And like you're doing it because it feels good, great, but aren't you curious about the actual history?
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, doesn't that have any place in your world view?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, wouldn't you rather know the what really happened or what the facts actually are?
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we watched that talk by Ann Cyphers um just a few days ago.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: And this woman, like you're saying, dedicates half of her life to doing the research.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: And she showed that the the map of you know how much area she sampled in La Venta.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_03: She sampled like the whole thing at this point.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: And amazing research, you know, just impeccable stuff.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, she's an academic and this is Western science.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm I'm gonna agree with what I read on uh a meme, you know, this meme that I saw that says that the old mechs were black is just as relevant as her work.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_03: Or I'm going to believe the words of a certain academic because they conform to my own personal biases, even though that certain academic also is Western taught.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, who are we talking about?
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_03: Ben Certima, right?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_03: He went to he went to Western schools, European schools, whatever you want, however you want to phrase it.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_03: He went to those schools, but it just so happens that he has a specific point of view that is couched in antiquated, outdated, outmoded um sources, most of which is none of it, in fact, is primary source material.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's all secondary source material from people who were, you know, um fantasizing about these things in the 19th century.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_03: He uses people like Le Plan Jean and Brasur de Borburg from the 19th century, back when archaeology was still relatively new and people were making up stuff all over the place because they didn't have the tools, the scientific rigor at that point to do the work that like it's supposed to be done, like the way it's done today, right?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_03: So he's an academic, so you're gonna believe his word over some other academic because you don't agree with that certain academic assessment, and you're gonna call that person a western, uh westernized uh person of color who is you know not towing the the the line that that you want them to tell.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's it's it's ridiculous.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_03: You can't just pick and choose.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, are you you know going to be okay with uh scientific rigor across the board, or are you gonna just be cherry-picking that which make makes you feel good?
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_03: If that's what you're doing, then you're again to what what I was saying earlier, you're you're doing a disservice to yourself and and to those around you.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that's not a good way to go on about with your life.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_03: You have to accept the facts the way that that that they are and not just pick and choose the ones that you agree with.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and not only that, but during the Trump presidency, the Trump administration, we got to witness for ourselves in real time the real world consequences of what happens when people are actively encouraged to dismiss facts or to invent their own facts or pick and choose, right?
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: They call them alternative facts.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: When people are actively encouraged to pick and choose and only accept those things which conform to their worldview, we got to see what happens.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: And you get Trump and you get violence and you get hatred.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's an extremely dangerous uh view to hold, and it's an extremely dangerous view to promote.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: So all these people that are that are pushing this sort of postmodern, you know, believe whatever makes you feel good nonsense, they they need to be careful because this can really come back to bite them in the ass.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, to that, I would highly recommend that people read the article uh robbing Native American Cultures, Van Surdima's Afrocentricity and the Omics by Gabriel Haslet Vieira, Bernard Ortiz de Monteyano, and Warren Barber.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: This is an excellent uh point-by-point, just total takedown of Van Surdima's work and the idea of black omics.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna post a link to it in the show notes because I think it's important that people read this.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then also there are comments uh provided at the end from different academics, people like Michael Co., people like Ann Cipers, and one of my favorites is a response from uh let me find it, Gerald Early.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: He's an African and Afro-American studies professor at Washington University.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: And he just says it flat out that Afrocentrism is Eurocentrism in blackface.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: And this is an African-American professor.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, this is an African American professor, and he comes out and he just says, Afrocentrism is Eurocentrism in blackface.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: And he goes on to say one of the serious problems that oppressed people like African Americans face is dealing with the sometimes destructive tendency to create parallel institutions that copy white ones almost entirely.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, and and he's right.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this this idea, this rewriting of history uh to promote a certain worldview based on a pseudo-historical racial fantasy perspective is destructive and it's it's mirroring uh Eurocentrism 100%.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's like we say at the end of the letters, you cannot counter colonialist thought with colonialist pedagogy.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you can't you can't just substitute one for the other because it makes you feel good, you know, or because you happen to agree with the opinions that that are being presented.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: No, you have to use academic rigor.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_03: If you're gonna do it for one thing, you have to do it across the board.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_03: Otherwise, you're not being you're not being consistent at that point.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_03: You're just picking and choosing.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_03: And once you start going down that path, you're not being uh not only non-academically rigorous, but you're also bordering on being almost religious uh to a degree.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, because that's what religious people do.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_03: Religious people will use science when it benefits them, when it supports their bias, when it supports their point of view, and then they will reject it when it uh contradicts or it undermines whatever belief system that they've constructed.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and so you you know it's it's either you're gonna look at this, you're gonna accept the the academic findings and the scientific findings from people who not just because they're um you know PhDs or because they're academics, but because they've done the work.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_03: This is what they do, this is their literally their job.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_03: They go out to these places and they dig and they excavate and they analyze and they publish, and it takes years and years and years of of experience and knowledge.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's the same with any trade.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_03: Like if if you want an elect uh if you're having electrical problems in your house, are you gonna call, you know, just some random Joe off the street to give you their feelings on what they think is wrong with uh your electrical problem?
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_03: Or are you gonna try to get someone that you know that is an electrician and and has been doing it for a while, someone that's competent, that has the tools necessary to do the job.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_03: That's what that's what we're talking about here.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's the same thing.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but what if that non-electrician makes killer memes, though?
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that seems to be where we're at right now, and and we're seeing this encroachment of these ideas into ethnic studies programs because I can't tell you how many times when I'm doing research, I'll pull up somebody's dissertation or their master's thesis, and you know, they were approved, they got their degrees, and I'm reading this stuff, and I'm like, whoa, this everything this person is citing is wrong.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're using you know uh pseudo history as their citations, known pseudo-historians, known bogus claims, and nobody seems to be blinking an eye at this stuff.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a little concerning.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: More than a little, it's very concerning.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: Very because you know what I like to say, my friend, the truth.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's like medicine.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: It don't taste good, but it's always good for you.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to Tales from Ocitlantis, a project of the Jamali Institute of Mesoamerican Arts.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: If you enjoy the show, please consider becoming a Patreon supporter.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: You can do this by visiting Talesfromacitlantis.com and clicking support the podcast.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: Your continued support will help keep the podcast ad free and independent.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, Timo I Tas.