Latest / In The Business of Humans / Toxic Workplaces Part II: How to Deal With a Toxic Boss (And Become a Better Leader)

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Toxic Workplaces Part II: How to Deal With a Toxic Boss (And Become a Better Leader) · In The Business of Humans

• CX Joe: What do you get when you take a former manager plus report combo who are now real life friends? One a management coach and sudden viral internet star who shoots from the hip, and the other a CX exec turned advisor who overthinks everything, this podcast. Welcome to the business of humans. I'm Joe, founder of CX Joe Advisory and the Overthinker. My partner in crime is Linda. She's the founder of Leveled Up Leadership and the Internet Star. Join us as we talk about business, relationships, humanity. Success and also failure, through the lens of friendship, heaps of radical transparency and honesty, and zero BS. Let's get started with today's episode. Lynda Harvey: Hi Joe. CX Joe: Hello Linda, how's it going? Lynda Harvey: Good. I have to tell you, I'm so I was distracted for a minute. So, you know, for the people who don't know, the platform we record in sometimes does like a a freeze or it catches like some random picture of us and it's over on the right hand side of my screen. And sometimes the pictures that it captures, I mean it's almost as good as my YouTube channel, where I'm like, wow, YouTube did me dirty, but man, CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: Riverside did me dirty on this one. It's like, what is even happening? In that so I'm sorry, I was slightly distracted. CX Joe: that's great. I think it's a classic example of ignorance is bliss because however I have mine set up, I'm not it's it's bad enough having to see the live recording and and my face is a part of that. But I I I don't I think I would just completely break down and stop functioning if I was seeing these like still shots. it sounds terrifying. Lynda Harvey: Yeah, it's it's it's definitely not a good look for me. And let me tell you, like as I've gone down this journey of being CX Joe: Scene. Yes. Lynda Harvey: very much more public about my life and who I am and putting my CX Joe: Is it is it? Lynda Harvey: face out on the internet, I you know, I thought that I got really comfortable with like different levels of readiness and but this this screenshot CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: is bad. CX Joe: Linda, classic, unscripted, difficult question to throw your way one minute into the pod. But how how do you think about that nowadays in terms of what to share, what not to share? You know, I still we do the podcast together, but I'm also your friend. I'm also your follower on social. So it's a pretty common experience. I'm pick up my phone, I'm like, wow, look at Linda Go. Sharing X, Y, or Z. I mean, you've been I think, you know, I really admire the way that you talk about your like all your career adventures, including times you've been wronged and I've too and we talk about that. but then it bleeds over a little bit into family life. Like, how do you think about what to share, what not to share? Lynda Harvey: Yeah, so you know, I've I've gotten a ton of feedback on both sides of of the aisle in the sense of share all of the things about your life and family, share none of the things. And I approach it, I think, the same way that I kind of approach when I'm at work, right? When I'm at work, like I'm gonna tell you some stuff, and I'll tell you, like, I if you don't know the names of my children when we're at work, like I haven't done my job because and I You know, in fact, I think one of the first meetings you and I ever had when you and I were sitting down, I actually remember I was in a phone booth at at the kiln and we were having a conversation. I said, Hey, I'm gonna talk about my kids a lot because they're my favorite people. And so, you know, I I I leave a little bit less of that on social media because they are underage and I feel like I don't need to share I it needs to be up to them. You know, I've I've watched a lot of information from young young kid influencers who have kind of entered into adulthood and talked about their experience and talked about how they really didn't have the consent to share CX Joe: No. Lynda Harvey: their lives. So I do my best to not share CX Joe: Is nice. Lynda Harvey: my kids on social media, but we talk about them here on the podcast every now and then. We talk about the CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: fact that we are parents, that we're both have spouses, like so I share some of those things, but I do think that there gets to be a version of me that's just for me. And I think when you are out in the public eye, And I'm not saying that I'm like, you know, I'm not Drew Barrymore yet, but when you are out in the public eye, there is some CX Joe: I love that you chose Drew Bangmore. That's great. Lynda Harvey: I mean, I think that she's like, you know, she's also a mom and she's got a life and and those types of things. But anyway, yeah, CX Joe: She's she's very relatable, lovable. Lynda Harvey: yeah. but I think in general, sh there's some that you share, right? And I think that you get the version of me on TikTok and Instagram and LinkedIn. And then CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: I think you come to the podcast and I think you get a more down-to-earth version of me. And CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: then outside of the pod, there's also a different version of me. So I try and be really CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: careful how much I share, but also really mindful of the fact that, you know, my kids, my kids are not adults. And so sharing their information, I just don't think is quite right. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That makes a lot of sense. So, I mean, there's still there's still layers to it and some method to the madness. and also sounds like a distinction between you, your own career is like kind of at 11 out of 10 sharing, at this point, which is amazing again, and a big part of I think, you know, kind of your professional brand and the value people get out of your content. And then family's different, it's a little more moderated. And it's thought provoking for me too. I mean, I In addition to being the overthinker, I'm the oversharer as well. And I will say it's on my list of my long list of things I'm enjoying about advisor part of my career. I still so I overshare a lot. I still factor in the other person's experience because that's just like a empathetic, you know, decent thing to do. If someone isn't as big a sharer as me, of course like throttle it back a little bit. But to some extent, you know, in your own boss, you get to kind of just make decisions about everything. I have a really close sort of Client slash, you know, I hope budding to be a friendship. And I spent the first like three minutes of our catch-up telling him all about my travails at the dentist, and the root canal I had to get the last week or two. And now I'm talking about the pot. it was terrible. It sucked. And at the Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: end of it, I'm just like, why did I share all of that? You know, I don't know what it benefited our business relationship. But it's kind of it's something we have in common each in our own way, is like just sharing and talking about what's on our mind. And your point about your kids, like that's really sweet. And I think about my family the same way, like my wife. And my two kids are like kind of my three best friends, you know, with all due respect Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: to my friend, best friend, and other people. You know, that's how it is. Like we spend so much of our time with them. They're kind of my three besties and I share what's on my mind. And it's it's part of just being genuine and and sharing Lynda Harvey: Yep. CX Joe: honestly. Lynda Harvey: Maybe we would say a being human. CX Joe: Being human, we are in the business of humans, after all. Lynda Harvey: We are in the business of humans. Yes. Yes. and you know, we were sharing a little bit, and you know, I'll I'll share this a little bit on the pod before we started because you know, we we catch up before, and I had a really tough week, right? CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: Like I had a really, really tough week. And, you know, you were like, Well Linda, like why, why did you have a tough week? I'm like, man, being a parent, I and you know, I I won't share. explicit details on things, but you know, I have I have children who are teenagers, right? CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: And They don't lie when they say the teen years are tough. Like those are tough, CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: tough years. And this week was this week was no exception. Yeah. CX Joe: This scares me. It's gonna be eight or ten years in the future for me. Terrifying. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. So and I, you know, I've got I've got teens. And the challenge is it's so interesting because, you know, when they enter into the world, you're concerned about like, you know, them breathing. It's like their CX Joe: Yes, necessarily. Lynda Harvey: movement and their breathing, right? And then it's like, are they developing at that rate? I was telling a story the other day. my pediatrician seriously traumatized me because my son, when he was small, was a small kid, right? He was he was underweight and he was always in the low percentiles. And my doctor's like, you're not feeding him enough. And he was just like browbeating me into like saying that I wasn't feeding my kid enough. And so I literally The child from like age one until almost four, we were like, not only was he having breakfast and we gave him like oatmeal for breakfast, like a substantial breakfast, he was also getting a carnation instant breakfast, which is tons of calories, tons like CX Joe: Okay. Lynda Harvey: he was probably having 600 calories for breakfast. Well, CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: that feels excessive, but it it was a high calorie count for a small person. And I was just like, we were force feeding him. I would like hide tofu and things. I like grind up tofu CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: and I would like hide it in the food because he's like he needs more protein. And my doc my pediatrician is just like all of the time, every time he sees me, right? So then comes my second child, and we go to the one month appointment. And he's like, apparently you just have small babies. And I was like, Are you fucking kidding me? Like, you just told me that I'm not feeding my child enough. CX Joe: Call it off, call up the campaign. We're all set. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. He's like, apparently they're just small. And I was like, I hate you. which is funny because we actually really like our pediatrician and we'll be sad when my kids don't need to go to him any longer because he's just delightful. But anyway, so you you have these different worries as you gr go with with children. And the worries just get different and still big. Right. So it's not as frequent. Like, did you roll over? Are you breathing enough? Do I need to get the snot sucker? Like all of those things that CX Joe: Yeah, isn't it? Lynda Harvey: you think about when they're really small. And now it's just like, I don't know. Where are you going? Who are you going to go with? Are you going to be safe? so needless to say, it was a tough parenting week for me, like a really CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: tough parenting week for me. But then I thought, well That feels like it really, I tell people all of the time, parenting So we froze for a minute. CX Joe: So, like you said, the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. and my version of that this morning was with the four-year-old and getting him to wake up and eat anything for breakfast. And we were having meltdown after meltdown, so different points in the journey. But my other reflection, you know, when we first started chatting, and now you're sharing on the pod, is I think that, okay, so you know I'm really big on like We all talk about like, okay, the world's going to crap, you know, for all all these Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: reasons. But you know, since it's my job to be the optimist as well or look at the bright side, there are certain things, like trends in society we're living through that I think are wholly positive that we should also reflect on. So I also just find it's really good that it's getting more normalized to start conversations, whether it's just us two catching up or on the podcast, or also in even way more public settings and people just saying, Hey, I'm having a tough week, or like yeah, most things are good and my physical health is great. I'm having a bad mental health week. I had another sort of client slash friend who of course I'll never out, but who just, you know, it's like part of our we're talking about whatever work topics this week like, hey, how's your work? How's your week going by the way? And they said, Well, I'm just having a really bad mental health week. And I was like, Thanks for sharing that. And it was just so healthy to know that and to factor into our conversations and me trying to be there for them as a friend. and I told them too that it recalled for me as the sports fan and as my hometown Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: basketball team, the next charge through the playoffs. One of their most likable players, Mitchell Robinson, he's just everybody loves this guy, and he just chose to share like during this playoff run. He shared his socials, which have tons of followers. He said, Hey, I'm going through a really, really hard mental health chapter right now. If like this is what's happening, I don't even know. Reasons why, but I'm battling through it and I appreciate everyone's support. And it was like, you know, the team and the fans were able to kind of rally around him more, not knowing exactly what's going on. But he he just shared that. And I think Lynda Harvey: Good. CX Joe: just sharing that is brave and and helps. And I think it's Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Yep. CX Joe: I just think it's a good thing that we could go through our lives now sharing that, whether it's with friends or coworkers or the whole world in his case, and just thinking on like. How that used to be so different, or I know this sounds dramatic, Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: but like how many lifetimes would pass with probably without that that person sharing with another soul just like going through it right now, you know. It's good. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that it speaks to again, I I think in this space where we have felt like we've really kind of lost that human peace, right? And especially at work where it feels like it has to be performative. Like, CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: I have to come and put on a happy face. I can't. And sometimes it's okay. And and again, I think it's really wise to choose your audience, right? I always tell managers, it's okay if you have a bad day. Like it's okay if you have a bad day, but you have to remember, like, you can't we can't throw that in your team space, right? Because when we when we think about the power dynamic at work and when we think about this space, you know, I the worst some of the and and I think this is a great springboard into our topic today, but some of like the worst managers that I've worked with, whether they've managed me or I've observed them, are the people that think that everybody needs to know what their problems are or think that You know, they sit down with their team member, and their team member's like, things are really hard for me. And then the manager takes it over and is like, Yeah, I know. You should hear about my struggles. And I'm always like, That's not your, that's really not the right audience. That's not the right space for you to come in and try and share your woes with your direct CX Joe: No. Lynda Harvey: report. Right. Because first of all, we have to understand that from a direct report's point of view. You could be the thing, you could be the goal, right? Like your position, your place CX Joe: Yes. Lynda Harvey: of power, what you're doing could be their goal. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: And they also assume, often wrongly, that like, well, you get paid the big bucks and then you're coming in here dumping your problems on me. CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: Even even though, like, more often than not, as like a frontline manager or you know, a lower level, mid-level manager. The pay gap isn't that big, right? As you go further on that kind of executive journey, the pay gap definitely gets larger. and that's the other thing that you have to consider when you've got a significant pay gap between you and the person you're speaking to, and CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: you're coming in and dumping your problems on them. CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: Like this is not an equitable relationship, right? It on so many levels. CX Joe: Right, right. yes. Right, right, right. Lynda Harvey: So I I but I do think that there should be a space, or I think that even with even in that same breath, like I'm gonna talk out of both sides of my mouth on this, but even in that same, it's okay for a manager to say, Hey, you know what? I'm not in the headspace today. I can't tell you there have been times when I've had to cancel one on ones where I'm just like, I'm really sorry. I don't have the I there are things going on in my life and I don't have the space and attention to be able to show up. for you the way that's in a way that's meaningful in this in this meeting. So I'm gonna have to go ahead and cancel our one on one today. I don't do it often, right? I don't have those things often, but sometimes you just are like, I really can't do it today. I'm really sorry. CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: I'm so sorry. CX Joe: I I think I think both sides of the mouth make perfect sense in this case. You know, I fully agree with both. Also, we're high level on the same page as as always. I was gonna say to you, you know, who you wouldn't want to share your mental health woes with or you're having a bad week, a horrible boss. That person you wouldn't Lynda Harvey: Mm. CX Joe: want to share with. so yes, we're we're we're right into it. but I agree with you. I mean, I think there's a difference between a manager sharing on a hum human level, like hey, I'm a human being too, and I'm kind of going through it today. Or, you know, maybe I'll explain more when we catch up next, but I just I need the time back today. I'm really sorry. Or like let me know if anything urgent, you know, these kind of human I I think that's great. And it's being a human being if if if that's how you have to approach it that day. I think with the prior examples would evoked for me, which are less good or acceptable for managers. One, there's a way of sharing one's own problems that is like passing the buck and removing accountability. That's not Lynda Harvey: Uh-huh. CX Joe: so hot. So let's say if you have a report, you know, sharing their genuine challenges at work. And then if you as a manager, your response is like, yeah, and you should see how it is for me. I mean, I know, trust me, I'm trying to share the same stuff and it's like it's going nowhere. And, you know, this is what happened like in my exec leadership meeting and just kind of derails the whole one on one with those, like that's not great because Lynda Harvey: Hm. CX Joe: as a report, you're just feeling like I need someone to have some accountability or also to like honestly to maintain a certain level of decorum and professionalism. I think actually does Lynda Harvey: Yes. CX Joe: better for the report, having been on both sides of this. and the other thing I thought about that that you were getting at too is you also have to be mindful as a manager, sharing your woes if they're not the same woes as your report has, and if there's that kind of to your point, power dynamic, you know, income discrepancy dynamic. you know, I Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: Can't remember if I shared this on the pod earlier. And again, of course, and never like matching it to people. But sorry to this boss out there. But a former boss of mine who, when I was really like me and and my team that I was managing, were having a difficult time that weekend with just the flows of the business and customer conversations and so forth. and that manager like spent half of a call we were having, which was meant to be them checking in on what was going on in the department and shifted into All the travails they were having, of having home renovations and a big party they were hosting that weekend, and Lynda Harvey: Mm. CX Joe: like managing four different crews of construction and you know party organizers, and literally was like sipping a glass of wine as they walked me all through this. It felt to me like maybe their third or fifth glass of wine. It was just like at a certain point, I was like, Wow, I didn't know we were gonna have this podcast one day, but that's just an example of like. Like what's it's like, that must be nice. It's just like, that must be nice. so sorry. Like you're struggling through that. Lynda Harvey: Right? Right. We're like and and and and the thing is is like, yes, those are problems. Those are problems. But again, like where is the appropriate venue? Like, CX Joe: Yeah, absolutely. Definitely. Have a filter though. Lynda Harvey: is this the appropriate venue? Is this the appropriate dynamic to share your first world champagne problems? Right? And CX Joe: Right. Probably not. Probably not. Probably not. Lynda Harvey: and I'm sure with you also knowing you, you were like, that does sound really awful. That does sound and CX Joe: yeah. Lynda Harvey: And then you're going, like, why what the fuck am I doing here? Like what? Which is which is really interesting because CX Joe: It's tough. Lynda Harvey: I find so often, no matter what the dynamic is, I always know what's going on with people in their life. There's something, I mean, my children say that I like squeeze the truth out of people. I don't CX Joe: Nice. Lynda Harvey: know what it is about my presence. I don't know if it's people feel or understand that I'm pretty much as like little judgmental. as I as I possibly can. I'm like, hey, listen, you've got problems. I've got problems. We've all got stuff, right? And if you feel appropriate or you feel like this is the place to put it, like, okay, bring it on. I'll I'll we can talk about all of the CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: things, right? So I do find that, but it's it's that self-awareness piece, I think, so often and and CX Joe: Yeah. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: you know, on the topic of horrible bosses, I think that so much of What feeds into people being a horrible boss? I don't believe that most people are malicious. I really don't. I believe that most people have good intentions. People want to be good humans. At the end of the day, they want good things said about them at the end of their life, right? CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: And I think that most people act through intention. With that being said, I have had some people that I'm like, I don't think that you think forward. I CX Joe: Ha ha ha. Lynda Harvey: don't think that you are capable of self-assessment. But I I actually think that, and you know, I spend a lot of hours a week counseling and coaching people and talking them through horrible boss situations and talking through like what does a horrible boss actually look and feel like? And is this a place where you're actually projecting your stuff? And let's talk about some self-awareness. And and I really do think. That a lot of the horrible bosses that are out there are people who just lack general self-awareness. What do you think about that? CX Joe: Hmm. Mm-hmm. I think that's a thousand percent true. lacking general self-awareness and then like a kind of related thought that I was pondering as you spoke. Part of lacking the self-awareness, I think, is also the ability to diagnose one's weaknesses or improvement areas and then work to address them. And I think that there's trend or like a general reality, a correlation with so-called horrible bosses and not realizing that management in and of itself is, you know, a an aspect of their work, their leadership, job performance, and Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: an area that they might need to invest time in and put the work into becoming better managers. Because to your point, I really, really push myself to not be critical of people just because they have weak points. I have a billion of them. But I think an interesting dynamic is a worse boss oftentimes doesn't understand or isn't willing to address those weaker areas, and especially when I consider softer skills, so to speak, but are absolutely Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: critical, like human skills and management skills to be in addressable areas. So for example, you might have a manager who would be very quick to dispense advice to someone saying, you need to get better with your data skills. You need to get better leveraging Lynda Harvey: Right. CX Joe: AI. You know, this these are great examples of, you know, feedback areas that I had earlier in my career, let's say around like data and modeling and spreadsheets, because I was an English major. I had no idea what the hell I was doing. So I'd get that feedback, but you know, to my credit, I'd work at it. Or I remember like in a job I had 10 years ago, like staying till 10 p.m. and working on the spreadsheet or go, you know, asking people for help and reaching out to industry friends. Right. So whatever. So I try to put some hustle in to get To an acceptable place of competency in that area. I Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: would love to see some managers out there, including senior executives, you know, to have that self-awareness or maybe to get feedback on an assessment and not just brush it aside and be like, that's a crap that doesn't matter. It's like, no, it it matters at least as much as you know, brushing up your skills Lynda Harvey: Yes. CX Joe: and data and nowadays A AI competency and all of that. Like put some time and effort into becoming a better manager. And so I think to your point and to wind up my speech. I think I think that's where reports and team whole teams start to get really discouraged is like when a senior leader has those discrepancies and just clearly isn't acknowledging them as Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: improvement areas or putting any work into addressing them. Lynda Harvey: Or yes and to this, CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: or they treat it like a checkbox. So for example, I think that you and I could talk about some of some of the people who have managed us in such colorful ways. But, you know, I and I'm yeah, shade to this person, whatever. I don't care. I won't mention their name though. How about that? So I had a a manager. CX Joe: That's good. Lynda Harvey: it was not you, Joe. So there you go. I will say it's not, I will tell the world it's not you. But CX Joe: Damn it. I hope not. Thank you. Lynda Harvey: this manager and I, we had been, we had formerly been peers. And I think that that's really challenging. And one of the things that CX Joe: Mm-hmm. That's always tough. Lynda Harvey: I coach people through a lot is CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: when they go from being a manager, like a peer to a manager, because that CX Joe: Okay. Yep. Yep. Lynda Harvey: dynamic changes so dramatically. And CX Joe: Right. In a heartbeat, right? In an instant. Lynda Harvey: it it's just it's so hard. And No matter what, I think that there always there's always this piece of like, you're on a power trip, right? But more often than not, these these individuals Are still kind of almost riding high of going like, I was your peer, and now I'm your manager, and now I have all the po there is a little bit of a power trip, if we will, that's going on. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: But the worst kind of lack of self-awareness is when you have these moments where you do provide honest and direct feedback. And and I had had a situation where I had had just a full-scale meltdown. Like, and I don't you Joe, you've worked with me and you've known me for quite some time. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: I don't have meltdowns often, right? I don't have I don't have meltdowns often. CX Joe: No, I would agree. Lynda Harvey: I am usually very good at like compartmentalizing, like what's going on. I will give direct feedback and I will say, hey, I don't agree with this, or I'm really struggling to understand this concept, or Help me understand because I'm really the logic isn't there for me, right? And you and I had had those conversations. But I had reached this point with this manager where I was done. And I was just CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: like so overwhelmed. And I had done some really big things for my department, right? I was, I was the top of the department. So I was the decider of the department. And I had done some really good things and I had grown the department and I had really like made some really meaningful changes. And we would sit in staff meetings, and this person would praise every single person but me. Every single person but CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: me. And again, I don't need a lot of praise. I don't need a lot of accolades. I'm like in fact sometimes when I get it, I'm really uncomfortable because I'm like, I don't know, I was just doing my job. Like, whatever, it's fine. CX Joe: Yeah. You just don't want to be egregiously slighted, like aggressively slighted. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: yes, yes. And I'm talking like I'm talking significant department savings. Like more than almost triple my salary savings, right? CX Joe: Yeah. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: I'm talking about taking attrition from ten percent to a half of a percent. I'm talking big things. And we're sitting in a meeting and they're Oozing praise for my peer who put together a PowerPoint. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: And I'm like sitting there like, what? What in the actual fuck? Like, this CX Joe: It's hard not to take it personally, right? Honestly. Lynda Harvey: PowerPoint was so effective and it was just so CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: informative. And I'm like, really? That's rad. No praise, right? No praise for like and again, I don't need a lot. And I hadn't done anything big that week. So it wasn't a big deal, but I had never received anything, right? And this person's like, CX Joe: Yeah, yeah. Lynda Harvey: the PowerPoint. So when I'm having this meltdown on this manager and I'm like, listen, this is broken because our relationship is broken. This is broken because I don't respond to you because I don't think you're an effective leader. I may have been a little harsh. or an effective leader for me. I didn't say it in general, I said an effective leader for me. Like this is what I'm not getting from you. And I need you to understand, I don't need a lot of praise, but I have never received any from you. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: I have moved this project, this project, and this project to completion with no disruption to the business. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: And I haven't, but there's been zero notification, right? So let's fast forward to our next team meeting where I am still seething. well, I want to take a minute to recognize Linda. Like she she really showed up on this thing. Again, it was the most. benign thing that I had done that week and it was just like, CX Joe: So well, I wanna ask you about this. Do you so first I was gonna kind of challenge you, like would it be would it have been better if they didn't action the feedback or praise you at all? But I guess related to that is also the question of did you feel like it was sincere? Or was it like such a benign thing? yeah. Lynda Harvey: No, it was a checkbox. Yeah, it was a checkbox. It was, okay, well, you gave me that feedback and now I'm going to do this. And yet in the next breath, after this meeting is over, I'm gonna CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: make sure that you understand how worthless you are, how you're not doing things acceptably because they're not done my way, right? CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: So it was literally a checkbox in a very public setting. And and also CX Joe: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Lynda Harvey: like her boss was on the call too, right? He CX Joe: huh, huh. Lynda Harvey: Her boss would join like once in a blue moon. And so it was just like such a big checkbox. And it was it talk about insult and injury at CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: the same time. And it's just like if you would have found something genuine to talk about, CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: if there had been a genuine something I had done, I had done nothing that week. There was nothing to discuss, but it was literally like, well, the feedback was that I don't praise you, so I'm gonna praise you. And there was a check box. Ugh. CX Joe: Yeah. That sounds pretty lazy. And like it might have been honestly like from Harry telling it, it might have even been obvious to the team that it was sort of performative or or not sincere. You know, I'm picturing now like myself showing up to meeting it's like, Hey, look at Joe. You know, he put on his shirt today, he showed up for the call. Like, let's get a round of applause for Joe. or maybe even, yeah, told Lynda Harvey: What a big boy. He ate his breakfast. CX Joe: exactly. Or might have even told your skip level, like, Linda really needs some recognition. This reminds me of a really hilarious moment I had early in my leadership career. You know, I did learn from it, but this guy was definitely a horrible boss. He joined my first startup that looked to be doing, you know, off to the races. And no, we we had a great run. It it didn't end up working out. It's no one person's fault that this person who joined as a senior exec to kind of take us to the next level, like really torpedoed things. And I had a very hilarious moment with him where we were talking something through and Yeah, like an extreme lack of humanity and gratitude was probably needing me a little bit. And I guess he perceived that. And his way of dealing with that was to inform me. He's like, you know, you're someone who clearly needs a lot of praise and recognition. You know, I just want you to know that about yourself. And yeah, I've definitely noticed that. you know, it's not always gonna work like that, but just kind of kind of putting you on notice, you know, about it. And and here's the thing, again, I think it gets at What we expect out of leaders and out of bosses. Was what he was saying wholly untrue? Like, no. I mean, I'm sure there was some truth that I'm a sensitive soul. I like praise. I I struggle, you know, with critical all all those things are true and like represent some improvement areas for me as well. But at the same time, it's kind of funny, right? And when you when you strive to be a great leader and you get to know your team members, what makes them tick, they're, you know, you strategize, you push yourself in all the ways to make them to kind of quote unquote get the best out of them, but also develop them Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: as people and go on this rich journey together. So, you know, I could think of somebody from my past who I love who definitely was cut from the same class as me. You know, they wanted praise and feedback and rec recognition. So what I strove to do was to give them that because it fueled them and they deserved it. They're doing a kick ass job. And then, you know, over the course of like months or years working together, you could work on those things together or bring it up there, you know, I like kind of try to Train the person to have resiliency and to to get ready for other bosses that might not be so kind anyway, whatever your thoughtful way is of dealing with that, probably not just like calling somebody out awkwardly and then just letting it sit in the air. But again, these are Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Yeah. CX Joe: just folks, they're just not. It kind of gets back to like other topics we've talked about over the pod of just like as people rise to ranks in an organization, you know, the person I'm thinking of right now, brilliant, way smarter than me, did great things in his career, just really never cut out to probably be a leader of people. And these things just get confused and conflated so often. Lynda Harvey: Yeah, and I think so often, to your point, people who find themselves in leadership, who have no business being in leadership, I think so often, like I can't fault them for that CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: because I think so often I think about my career, right? I was very intentional about going into leadership. I always knew that that was going to be the space for me. Like I always knew I was always chomping at the bit to try and become the manager. Like I always wanted to be that person. And so I purposefully got myself there, right? Like I went in it with intention. I always picked jobs where I felt like there was a path there or the title was already there, right? And even as I grew in my career and later in, you know. And some people you and I think Joe, you and I have had this conversation about some people are split on titles. And I was like, no, I'm not split on titles. Like I absolutely want this leadership title. This is what it looks and feels like. And I'm very intentional about that. And I do think that there are some people who rise to the ranks, and we can talk about, you know, how that happens. They rise to the ranks and find themselves in leadership positions, and maybe they have no business there. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: But it's the golden handcuffs, right? It's this golden handcuffs of like, well, I make a lot of money and I have a lot of privileges. I I mean, I was literally talking to someone not too long ago, and they were like, they were dealing with a horrible boss. Again, because that's I talk about horrible bosses almost all day, every day, right? CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: And they were dealing with a horrible boss, and everyone in their life they were talking to would say, Well, just quit. Just quit. And CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: they're like, I don't think you understand how much money I make. I don't think CX Joe: Ha ha ha. Lynda Harvey: you understand like the privileges that this comes with. Like, I sometimes get to fly on private planes because I'm traveling with the with these executives, and that's awesome, right? And CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: I get to travel to places that I have never been because of the position that I sit in, right? And and so it is kind of these golden handcuffs. And so we spent time together really number one, understanding that sometimes people find themselves in in places of power. And one of the classic one of the classic spaces that you find people in positions of power that probably have no business being in power, but they are, is in kind of the founder space, right? When you've got a founder. Who's a founder and CEO of the company, right? And we could go through, we could dissect and slice and dice the way that the life cycle of most companies. You start with a founder, founder acts as the CEO. They do that for some time and eventually they're either ousted by the board or they decide that it's not for them and they bring in like somebody who has the background, right? But there's a lot of rocky years in there for a lot of these founders. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: And the thing is, is it's this person who probably had a really great idea. They were a disruptor. They were somebody CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: who really was capable and brilliant and so good at this thing, and they created this thing. And then suddenly they have direct reports. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: And I think that, you know, that's That's definitely the extreme of how some people find themselves in leadership and how a lot of bad bosses are really born because it's like, I guess I manage people now, right? CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: But I think you find that even on other levels where somebody comes in, they work really hard, they're really good at what they do, they have tons of knowledge. And then someone says, You should manage some people because you're CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: so good at what you do. Here are humans. that you're responsible for. And it is again back to the parent analogy, it's kind of like being a parent when they hand you a baby and you're CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: in the hospital for one to three days, depending on your experience. And they're like, And here's a human, keep them alive. Pi CX Joe: Yes. Yes. But in the case of a company, I mean, ideally there's some preparation and some support for that moment. I guess ideally in life, and as parents too. But back to back to business. You know, I think what it goes back to, and you think about these founder progressions like you're talking about, as you know, I'm obsessed with all these stories and you know, both lived through and also just hearing stories and my podcast obsession and all of it. You're right. It's very, very common story. I think where the story You know, where where everything could still work out, Peachy, is so if you trace back to like as the business grows, ideally that founder CEO has the awareness to bring on one or more people around them who have the skills and the and the mandate, you know, to do things like drive a great culture and drive great management and and report experiences, drive a great workplace experience, even if it's not their superpower, or what what's in their purview to take care of. So bringing in a great people leader, for example, really early. Oftentimes, Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. CX Joe: Great support or CX leaders could also help to build culture. Shout out, you know, to Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: the industry where we both came up. It's just true. Like great CX leaders Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: oftentimes are great at creating great cultures as well. But most importantly would bring be bringing a great people or HR leader early. And then that person would then have a team, possibly as the business grows. But either way, make sure that when new managers are promoted, they actually have training and resources and support. And you know, maybe they get some training before their first 101s, but then even probably more importantly, as they're having those first one on ones and big management moments are like, I don't know what to do, or Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: I I think I really just screwed something up in my one on one. That's gonna happen, but a great Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: organization, that person has a space, you know, has has a place they could go physically or on Slack or you know, whatever the case might be, and just say, hey, I need I need an assist. Like that didn't go well. I need help. And so that could, you know, creating that structure and that support network, I think could make the difference between what is allowable and is going to happen, which is just like Lynda Harvey: Mm. Mm-hmm. CX Joe: development moments for new managers, but then are writed and approved and you know so or versus could be actually a toxic workplace and that person Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: staying a horrible boss. Lynda Harvey: I I totally agree. And sadly, the thing that most companies don't invest in is training for their managers. I CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: it's it, you know, not not as a plug to myself, because I've kind of stepped a little bit away from that. But that's what I yeah, that is one of the things that I I CX Joe: But that is one of the services you offer. Yes. Lynda Harvey: do, not as much anymore, but where you work with companies where you're like, hey, listen, let's teach them how to like have a double golf. conversation. Let's teach CX Joe: Yep. Lynda Harvey: them a little bit about self-awareness. Let's teach them about intention. And and they just don't. And so what we end up doing is we see these people who are promoted early in their career. And then the the golden handcuffs. So it's like, all of these perks from and or maybe it's really a power trip or whatever it is, right? So they continue to go higher and higher and higher. And that is how we continue to have these kind of toxic workplaces, number one, that are bred because Ultimately these horrible bosses pull people in who are like them that validate their behavior, they're yes men, and they they surround themselves with these individuals, or they are sanctioned by their organization. And I, you know, I would really love to get your thoughts on that. Like, why is it that so many organizations, why you believe so many organizations, even when concerns are brought to them, tolerate these leaders, right? The where they look the other way. so that that's where I see like a lot of this breeding ground. But I would also, other than like getting our thoughts on why we think organizations or helping peel back the curtain for the the people who are listening as to, you know, because the thing that I hear all of the time, they're like HR protects managers. And as a manager, I never felt protected by HR. I was almost like, ooh, I CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: feel like I am well out in the wind. CX Joe: Uh-huh. Lynda Harvey: so I think that there's definitely a very difference of opinion there. But then I also want to maybe give the people some strategies to to cope with some of these bosses and figure out Is it a self awareness problem? And I I have a strategy that I give to a lot of my clients that I'm gonna just give to the people today. CX Joe: I love that. And and my thing, Linda, is I also wanted to talk about a way of maybe flagging early my my best attempt at sort of my career's worth of experience of how to identify if it's going to be horrible loss, toxic workplace experience early in process. But let me so let's do this. I mean, first a like quick response to the question or topic that you posed of why. I think a universal So every every company is different, every circumstance is different. Why are these things allowed to exist? Because look different everywhere. But I think universal truth is often that it's just a sign that great employee experience and great management is not being prioritized. Lynda Harvey: Right. CX Joe: Right? Clearly, it's not being prioritized. Why is it not being prioritized? Again, while every workplace is different, I have noticed a trend. I think one thing to look at then is whether your company is still maybe early founder-led, even tracing back to the way the company is funded. You know, so if it's like an early founder-led company, maybe there's angel investors on board, or like the founder self-funded, or something like this. A lot of times the culture in those companies, believe it or not, I found could actually be positive and kind of infectious and exciting. But if it's not, And if bad management is being tolerated, probably it's sort of a power struggle or a lack of awareness from the founder CEO. And the culture is just being set in a way that isn't healthy. And maybe no one's calling that founder on it. What I've also experienced in my career is at a slightly more I've never worked for big corporations, but a slightly bigger company. And once venture capital money is involved, I think a lot of times the reason it's tolerated is again, it gets back to prioritization. And when you double-click further, it's Senior management always allow allowing itself to always be in this moment of crisis and of Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: that's important and we agree. We will address that soon. Next. It's always the next thing to be addressed. Yeah, but we're bleeding cash. Lynda Harvey: But yeah, yeah. But we're bleeding cash, so too bad. CX Joe: We have we have a revenue, we have a retention target hit for this quarter, and so on and so forth. You know, public companies I actually don't have the experience of working for, but I've heard that dynamic gets even worse. Because every quarter is just about the next quarter's earning reports. And so then these small, I'm using air quotes, you know, issues of like horrible bosses and experiences people are having or come you know, employees quitting left and right. And you're trying to convey, like, no, this this is the same as worrying about the revenue goal, but it just doesn't always, you know, break through. but Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Yeah. CX Joe: what I want to do, Linda, also is just kind of flag My general trend I've noticed as for identifying these situations, and then maybe it'll flow in turn of because like it's kind of chronologically how to prevent it or flag it, but if you still find yourself in one of those situations, how to cope. my thought on trying to group everything together that I think actually could be identified over being honest with ourselves as early as interviews is if you're interviewing with the person who will be your manager, do you notice that person tends to make you feel bigger or smaller? Do they tend to make Lynda Harvey: Mm. Mm-hmm. CX Joe: you feel empowered or diminished? And again, like most thoughts I share, I think it's probably one or more people who kind of helped me to clarify this thinking over time, you know, because there's almost an infinite amount of moments and stories and anecdotes and like great moments and tough moments. And you could just like cycle through all of them. And it's hard sometimes to take a step back, but somebody was shy one time. It's like, yeah, no, what it sounds like to me is textbook case of. If you have a manager who's making you feel diminished every day and smaller, and they're doing that in so many ways, the way that they speak to you, the way that they deal with your setbacks, and also the way they deal with your victories is then trying to almost diminish your part in it and run with the credit, right? And then other managers you find are always empowering you. They're making you feel Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: bigger, you know, puffing your chest out saying, Yeah, I can do this and I'm great and I'm adding a ton of value. And you have a win, and they only want you to get, you know, get the credit. Or they have a win as a manager, but they still want to at least share it with you. so to some extent, you know, we think about it and go, like, how are we gonna know until we actually work at that place? I do agree we we talked about another episode, like checking glass door reviews and things like that, Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: talking to friends who work there for sure. But I also think if we're being honest with ourselves, we sometimes know as early as the interview, like, does this person make me feel bigger or smaller? And if they make Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: you feel smaller, and again to your point, even if the salary is gonna be great and you wanna turn a blind eye, like maybe I did once or twice in my career. You know, don't and and kind of own that part too and maybe try to avoid those situations. But with that said, back to you. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Well, that's really made where you reflect on my interview skills. I always said, like, if you can survive CX Joe: Mm. That's interesting. Lynda Harvey: an interview with me, then you can survive this job, right? But but not because I try to make people feel small, but I am very intense in an interview and I do CX Joe: No, no. huh. Lynda Harvey: like to ask tough questions. Cause I'm like, if you can CX Joe: Yeah, yeah. Lynda Harvey: if if you get out of this and have tough questions and because because, you know, we came up through customer experience, customer support, like you've got to have thick skin. Right. CX Joe: Is it? Lynda Harvey: And if you can get through the interview and you still want to be here, I'm like, then you're like, I promise you I get much better after this. I'm definitely not a first impression kind of kind of person. I'm like third CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: or fourth. And then you're like, Yeah, I think I like her. Right. Pretty sure. Pretty sure I'm a big fan. CX Joe: It's it's totally fair. And you raise a wrinkle in the method I propose. But what I'd still maintain is after you ask those difficult questions, I'd still bet the house that you show some empathy and compassion and recognition of the other person and even like their effort to answer your difficult question. I don't know. You could tell me I'm wrong. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Yeah. CX Joe: I would still bet that there's some hu you know humanity shown in those moments versus some people who ask those questions and then just for a fact like. you know, ignore you or look off in the distance like, interesting. And staring Lynda Harvey: Yeah, interesting. CX Joe: through holes through you just to make you feel small. So Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Yeah, no, that's that's definitely not me. And I did, especially the higher I got in my career, I would try to be like really casual with my posture or like because CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: I am so intense, I was trying to like present a little CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: bit like you don't have to like CX Joe: Yes. Lynda Harvey: be terrified of this experience. So CX Joe: That's good. Lynda Harvey: yeah, so I think that one of the things we should really kind of talk about. I I wanted this episode to be a little prescriptive. for the people because here's the thing, we can all acknowledge that horrible bosses exist. And we can acknowledge that we never know when they're gonna crop up, in all honesty. We could have somebody who is really great at the beginning and then becomes a really horrible boss or or something of that nature, right? CX Joe: Yeah, or your boss or you could do what I said and do it really well and then your boss is changed on you in like your first or third week. So yeah, just acknowledging you're right, you're right. These things happen. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. So so the thing is is they can crop up anytime. And ultimately, what what I want for the people, the humans that are listening, is for them to have to walk away with some kind of a strategy for this. It's this isn't an an episode of commiseration. If it would have been, I would have unpacked a lot more. right. And I think you would have unpacked a lot more. But really, I wanted this CX Joe: So hopefully people kept listening through the commiseration part to get to to get to the real part. Lynda Harvey: They're like, they're like, what else did that boss say to you? And I'm like, ooh, I'll tell you, I'll tell you. and but the thing is, is I think first and foremost, before we dive into some strategies on how to manage bosses. And and in another episode, we talked about micromanaging, and we can touch on that a little bit as well. As some strategies for the people, the thing that I want to call out, and this is very, very critical, and I'm going to open with if. This person is causing harm. And I I mean like physical harm, mental harm. that is never acceptable. So if you feel that you're in an environment where you fear for your safety. That is a very different conversation, right? You know, we joked a little bit about the Horrible Bosses movie and how it just was like, I wish we could watch it. And I'm like, no, I'd be wildly uncomfortable. if you remember Jennifer Aniston's character and that I mean she just made me so uncomfortable. if you are in a situation where there's sexual harassment, there's physical harassment, you feel unsafe, those are things you absolutely must. Report, right? You need to get out of that environment and you must report that behavior. It is never acceptable. I had a client who once talked about how their boss threw a phone at them. CX Joe: my god. Lynda Harvey: Not acceptable, right? I had another client who talked about how their boss was showing them inappropriate pictures on their cell phone. Those things are not appropriate. And so, yeah, this. CX Joe: my gosh, it's awful. Yeah, these are pretty black and white situations. Needs to be reported, acted on. Lynda Harvey: Yes, yes. And please, please, please, because this is another thing I learned this last week. If it is sexual harassment, please report it to a state agency. Please report CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: it to the EEOC. There are resources available to you because turns out that although sexual harassment is unlawful, companies do not have a duty to report. Well, like 95% of companies, so schools when you're dealing with children, healthcare. Those government agencies do have a duty to report, but private businesses and even public businesses, if they don't deal with certain sectors of individuals, do not have a requirement to report something that could be unlawful, which is really gross. CX Joe: Yeah, that's very interesting and also concerning and something I agree with you most people don't realize. So then that leaves so much of the decision making just inward, you know, in in internally in that Lynda Harvey: Yeah, yeah. CX Joe: organization, so many factors and yeah, yep, right. So many possible reasons to look the other way. Lynda Harvey: It's like problem meet the rug, like right under the rug, right? And and so often, yeah, and so often these like somebody could be genuinely causing harm. And if the employee quits, they don't do anything to the person who was causing harm. CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: And they're like, problem solved itself. The person who c was complaining, the victim has left the the organization. So if you find yourself in a situation of sexual harassment, physical harassment, where you feel unsafe, please, please, please report it because your company does not have an obligation to do so. And we're making the people better. CX Joe: Hm. Not a hundred percent. Lynda Harvey: So, left turn. Let's talk about a strategy though. Let's give the people a couple strategies to dealing with horrible bosses, right? And again, similar to toxic workplaces, horrible is very much a personal feeling, right? It's maybe you don't, maybe your boss doesn't acknowledge your accomplishments when you do big things, right? And I will say that this boss had a lot of other problems. It wasn't just because I didn't get a good at a girl. but maybe it's a situation like that. Maybe your boss is pure chaos. So they come in and it feels like the Tasmanian devil is in your office and like things are spinning and like the office, and maybe that's your perception of a horrible boss. Maybe it's they say awkward things at awkward times, or they're ultimately like very sarcastic, as I point it myself. CX Joe: Ha ha Lynda Harvey: so there's a lot of things, and I think one of the tactics that I give my clients. Is I'm like, first of all, let's decide where it's causing. And when I said it, does it cause harm? Yes, it causes harm because it bugs you, but it's not actually physically unlawful causing those types of harm. And yes, it takes a mental toll on you, but there is some a moment of self-awareness. And sitting up and saying, like, okay, is this something that is causing harm or is this something that just irritates me? CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: If it's the latter, this tactic works every time. So the first thing you have to do is remember you are not going to change them. This person is not going to change. CX Joe: Hmm. Interesting. Lynda Harvey: If you're waiting for an atta girl, if you're waiting for them to notice like all of your hard work, if you're waiting that for them to proactively approach you about something when they are always reactive, that's not going to change. CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: Now, if you give them feedback, you have meaningful conversations and they're self-aware enough to like not make it a checkbox, then it could modify, but it's not going to change. We're not going to change somebody else. Number two, we need to remember that this person operates on a different scale than you do. So so often I have clients who will say, like, why do they do it? I would never behave that way. Why would they say it this way? I would never say it this way. I would never make people feel this way. We need to recognize that that's projection. You're projecting your ethics, your values, your work style CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: on somebody who is not you. CX Joe: interesting. So when you say different different Lynda Harvey: So we have to recognize those things. CX Joe: scale, I think I I just want to confirm sort of Like a different wavelength or or or a different framework almost, just a different way of thinking, right? And so you're it's going to be very hard to like, yeah, instantaneously or or to your point, possibly ever have them kind of join you on your your wavelength, right? Lynda Harvey: Yes. And so we first of all need to understand like what level of projection is happening, like how we're projecting our stuff on them, our baggage, our experience, our desires, right? And we can still communicate with them. Hey, I really need some praise, or hey, I really need this from you. Hey, I would really love it if you would show up for me this way. I I'm all about meaningful conversations. But at the end of the day, this person is still this person. And if they don't see things, if you are on different levels or different spaces, they're not going to see it your way, right? So we're going to turn pain into pleasure. And this is how we CX Joe: Wow. Let's do it. Lynda Harvey: do it, right? And this works in so many, so many different facets. I have had clients call me and they're like, I can't believe how well this works. We are going to acknowledge that this person. Is exactly who they are. They consistently show up and tell you exactly who they are. And you just keep expecting them to show up in a different way. And so there's it you are adding insult to injury because you're like, maybe today, maybe today they're gonna show up the way that I really want them to show up. And then they don't, and then you're pissed, CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: and you're like, if you could just show up this way, it would mean something to me. And they're And they're oblivious. Again, they're not giving you that thought because they are caught up in their own Tasmanian devil ways, right? CX Joe: Yeah, yeah. This really hits and and maybe it makes it even more frustrating because you feel like you've communicated things or kind of like dropped signals that in your world and your wavelength would have been exceedingly obvious. Like, hey, I've really Lynda Harvey: Yes. CX Joe: indicated I need this kind of support or for you to show up this way in our next one on one. But to your point it's like completely lost on this person. And to your point, maybe they've been making that abundantly clear to you for a long time that it's going to be lost on them and you just keep having mm, unreasonable expectations in a way, which is an interesting reframing that puts a little accountability back on the report. And again, I'm thinking about when I was on the report side of this a very interesting reframing that's kind of empowering in a in an interesting way. Lynda Harvey: So they are going to keep showing up this way, right? Because CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: they have shown you exactly who they are. CX Joe: Right. Lynda Harvey: But you keep going like maybe today they're gonna be, they're gonna wake up and be different. So CX Joe: Yeah, right. Yep. Lynda Harvey: we are going to celebrate every time they show up exactly as they are. And CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Amazing. Lynda Harvey: we do this, we can do this with a number of ways, right? If you are, and it I like a physical manifestation of this. So whether it's you have tick marks on a calendar, on a sheet, on your desk, my favorite is to make it decorative because I like pretty things, right? So go get like a nice glass bowl or go get some kind of container and think of it almost like a square jar. Okay. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: Every time they show up exactly as they are, exactly as the human they that they are. Again, not causing harm, but they're Tasmanian devil. This is what we're thinking. I want you to put some kind of token in this jar, right? Whether it's a glass bead, whether it's I'm somebody ordered poop emojis. Somebody I know ordered poop emojis and they put poop emojis in there. It was a jar full of shit. CX Joe: Yeah, I was thinking more like cool glass marbles, you know, the ones you play with as kids. Lynda Harvey: I have a client who ha who does this. And number one, she's in office, so she really enjoys like when people come in and they're like, what is this? And she's she gets to make up new reasons why it exists on her desk and why the CX Joe: It's so funny. huh. Lynda Harvey: the levels continue to vary, right? CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: But she puts something in this glass jar. And then the instruction is once the glass jar or once the tick sheet or whatever this physical manifestation is, whatever this vessel is for you, once it is full, I want you to go do something for you. And something big. It's not just like, I'm gonna have a donut. I mean, if a donut's a big deal, have a donut. But like this person who, this one client who it's worked so well for, I mean it's worked for many clients, but it's worked really well for her, likes really expensive handbags. Like really expensive handbags, CX Joe: Okay. Lynda Harvey: right? And she puts the the bead in every time the boss shows up exactly as they are, right? CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: And when and when they don't show up, she's disappointed. When they show CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: up differently, she's actually disappointed because there is a payout for her. CX Joe: Yes. Lynda Harvey: For her to say, hey, listen, I'm allowing you to be you and I'm gonna be me and I'm gonna celebrate every time you show up as you. And then I get a payout, right? I CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: get this big thing. It turns it number one into a game. And I love a good, you know, I love a good board game. video games too. but it it gamifies the situation, but it also allows you to just be like, hey, good job. You showed up as you today. Like, way to go. And you get to celebrate that thing. And she CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: really is disappointed when the boss shows CX Joe: I know. Lynda Harvey: up and like does something different outside of like, yeah, loves it. Loves it. She really CX Joe: Yeah, it's all hitting me. Great. That would be disappointing. You Lynda Harvey: But the thing is is the CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: clients that that have adopted this and have done this, CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: I will go months without hearing from them. And then CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: they pop up on my calendar and I'm like, hey, what's going on? They're like, I just want to let you know that I am so happy. I have learned how to allow these people to be them. I've learned how to manage them. I've learned how to put them in their own box and no longer let that thing negatively impact me. CX Joe: I'm bought in. I think it's I think it's brilliant. I think it's genius. first of all, on a lighter note, I was thinking about like what would my thing be? Unsurprisingly, it would probably be like a case of spindrift, because I'm obsessed with my beverages. Spindrifts are my favorite. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. CX Joe: I mean, it be so funny if I think back to the boss and the source of some of my stories. And if I sat in a one on one and they showed up exactly as they always had, and if I thought, yep. And if I put a little marble in and I'm like, ooh, you know, two more of these, I got a new case suspension. I'd just be really happy. It could be silly or it could be something bigger, like the hand, whatever whatever it might be, but it's it actually would be super helpful. And I'd imagine like I always do this and Linda, you always welcome or push me to do this is like what would the pushback be? And I kind of like resolved it myself. I think like my guess just kind of double click in when you're really working with the client and the way thing I would make it work for me is I push myself to separate out. what I truly believe are addressable points of feedback and improvement, which Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. CX Joe: those are gonna be there, maybe somewhere in the margins or like certain topics. But if you pushed yourself as the report suffering through this to kind of put those in one bucket and like we'll keep working on those, what does the bucket look like of all the behaviors, all the things, the ways your boss is are showing up? Or if you really pushed yourself and you were honest with yourself, do you really think those are going to change? And that might be a pretty big bucket. And you might start to identify it's like things in those bucket that you against all logic just keep hoping and praying and willing to change and they're Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. CX Joe: they're just not going to. And I think those that's kind of the bucket you're focusing on. And if you if if if if you do that and you yeah, kind of flip it and reward reward yourself for the inevitable happening, that's it's kind of brilliant. Lynda Harvey: And and the thing is, is like if you get to that point where this isn't fun or this again is causing harm or you're like, I really can't take it, and and making a game out of this is just not working, then it is time to go, right? But the thing is, is if we can shift our perspective, if we can shift and say, hey, this could be a moment of projection, or this could be this thing, why don't I try looking at this through a different lens? Why CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: don't I try shifting this thing? And the thing is, is like if you can't live with it, then it's probably time to go. It's time to change positions. It's time to get out from under this. But If at the end of the day you're like, I actually can't wait, I'm gonna go get a I'm gonna go to the expensive massage place, right? Once my glass bowl is full, like whatever that is, or I'm gonna get three cases of spindriff, like whatever that is, and if you still find joy in it, and you CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: you will find that your overall atmosphere, because sometimes, especially when we're categorizing horrible bosses, if it is just a behavior that irks you and and is just something where you're like, ugh, you're so oblivious. And you never do the things and CX Joe: Mm. Yep. Lynda Harvey: and they keep showing up that way, then then maybe there is a way for us to just kind of put them in that box or manage them in a way that no longer lets it affect our mood and ruin our experience. CX Joe: Yep. I love it. Genius. Lynda Harvey: So, so that's the tactic. That's the the free little bit of feedback, but I will tell you it works every time. And and I will tell you how I actually came up with this. So CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: I hate, I hate Cybertrucks, like I hate them. with like a fire of a thousand suns. Yeah. CX Joe: My kids call them the diamond car. Like, look, another diamond car. Lynda Harvey: A true story. So there's this person who owns a nursery down the street from me, like a plant nursery. not a children's nursery, like a plant nursery. And they every now and every now and then the the cyber truck goes down the street and it's pulling a dumpster behind it and it's comical. It's very funny to me. It makes my whole day. But anyway, so I hated, CX Joe: Amazing. Lynda Harvey: I hate, I hate. Cyber trucks. They just just make me angry. And I was, when I would see them, I would, I would allow it to affect my mood. I was just like and I was like, this is so dumb. Why am I letting this inanimate object affect my mood? Why am CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: I like it's going to continue to look the way that it is? The people are going to continue to buy it. Like CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: I can't affect this change. CX Joe: It was amazing. Lynda Harvey: So how can I take a moment and celebrate it? And I've turned it into a game. Every time I see it, and like if I see three in a day, like that's a winning day. It's I get the hat trick and I'm like, it's a great day. CX Joe: It's a great day, yeah. Lynda Harvey: And my whole family looks for them now and they'll be like, Mom, CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: mom, did you see it? Or even like my niece and nephew look for them. And if we see three, everyone's like, it's gonna be a good day. Or if we see one that's been like modified or wrapped, we're like, it's a CX Joe: Well. Lynda Harvey: good day. CX Joe: Ha ha. Lynda Harvey: And it's taken this moment of like pure pain for me and something CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: that was affecting my mood to making it this this moment of like, yes, I saw the cyber drug. CX Joe: really funny. You know what it makes me think of, Linda, all roads back to Linda, as we say, is your hot under the collar exercise and every but it's Lynda Harvey: Yes. CX Joe: really interesting because I genuinely was just thinking about like that would be the max kind of application or test of this technique is like could you even apply this technique to things that get you really hot under the collar. So like for me for example you know Some some weeks I resist the negative and I flip it back to the positive, hilariously, cutely, Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. CX Joe: of course. But let's say something that really does get me hot under collar is like driving, right? Like driving, Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: road rage kind of stuff is difficult for everyone. But I think true to my character, what gets me hot under the collar are people who just illogically, aggressively, you know, pull maneuvers, like speeding up to then just cut you off to be like one car ahead. And it accomplishes nothing. And it's frankly like unsafe. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm. CX Joe: but you could tell they're just so satisfied themselves. And now Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: I'm thinking of like every time someone pulls a maneuver like that, I could be like, amazing. Like I could go home Lynda Harvey: Good for you. CX Joe: and put a marble on the jar. And then and then not Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Yeah. CX Joe: only get the spindrift, but maybe the one that you could only get on the website itself. It's more expensive. Special flavor. Special flavor. Blueberry Lynda Harvey: Oof fancy. Fancy. Yeah. CX Joe: lemonade spindrift 'cause I encountered two jerks on the road today. Lynda Harvey: I'm not quite sure why Spindriff is not sponsoring this episode. So I think maybe that's our next that's our next, you know, big hurdle, Spindriff. Or will they? Yes. CX Joe: Or will they? Manifestation. Lynda Harvey: Yes. Well, I mean, I think that that wraps up the episode to talk about the things that are hot under the collar. Is are we officially putting that as the hot under the collar thing for you, Joe? CX Joe: That'll be that'll be my entry for this week. And I actually participated and it happened organically trying to action your pearl of wisdom. Lynda Harvey: Yes, yes, amazing. CX Joe: What's yours? Lynda Harvey: Well, we're gonna keep it well, no, I was thinking food themed, but yours wasn't food themed. Mine is food themed. CX Joe: Okay. Lynda Harvey: I do not like oversauced items. CX Joe: my gosh, I love oversauced items. All the sauces. Lynda Harvey: So as I am I'm a Libra. I like all things in balance, right? And I cannot stand when things are over sauced, over cheesed, over-flavored, over-perfumed, like any of it. And I went to to dinner last night. Mike and I had an impromptu date night. CX Joe: Nice. Lynda Harvey: And we went to also like the price of Italian food is also has me. Really hot under the collar because it's fucking pasta. But anyway, I digress. So we went to this place that is like you go in and it has all of the best of state awards and all of the things, and it's it's fine. It's overpriced and fine. And I ordered my dish and it was it was tasty, but it had too much fucking sauce. It was almost soup. And I was like, there's too I, you know, and I had like a I end up like having a visceral response to it because I'm like, there's too much sauce. And honestly, like my my Caesar had been overdressed as well. Yeah, it it was like so anyway, oversauced. I don't like my pizza CX Joe: It was building, in all fairness. This issue was building as the meal progressed. You know, I've been Lynda Harvey: oversauced, any of it. CX Joe: so I like all of it oversauced. and I wonder if it's because someone are now. I have been really trying to get more into this whole, what do you call it, astrological sign or whatever. I've Lynda Harvey: yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. CX Joe: it's just never been my thing. But I'm very respect I've and and genuinely I've been very open to it and thinking. That this could be like one of the million things, you know, I just haven't exposed myself to that could explain certain things in life, really into it. You're really pushing it now, Linda. You're telling me that people's sauce, under or over sauce, sauce quantity preferences, that traces back to our science too. This might be a step too far for me, partner. Lynda Harvey: It's fine. It's fine. Hot under the collar. But it is like for me. I like all things in I like all things in balance. and I blame I blame my sign of a Libra, but CX Joe: That's what has me a hotter of the collar. Lynda Harvey: it was oversauced. Delicious. And the CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: pasta was cooked perfectly, which is always very important, but it was oversauced and I do CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: not approve. CX Joe: No, definitely not. The price of Lynda Harvey: Okay. CX Joe: pasta or chicken parmesan could be so that I mean that could be a whole episode right there. Lynda Harvey: It could be a whole like if I want to talk about like the most like opportunistic food is Italian food, right? Because they price it so high and it's fucking pasta, right? CX Joe: Hmm. Yeah. Well, also I don't know, you might have some of this too. One thing with like the dot in the world where I live is I still have enough exposure to New York City prices. But thankfully Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: day to day, I'm in a very different I'm in the sticks of New Jersey now, Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. CX Joe: relatively speaking. So actually was just thinking about this the other day. Like local spot, no frills, best service ever, best Italian food ever. And for about let's say $20 as an example, you could get a huge plate of chicken parm, comes with garlic bread, salad, probably something else, best service, best food ever. Like, okay, cool. I mean, I accept that this costs more than when I was growing up, but that's feels fine. And then you go into Manhattan and maybe like the chicken parm with nothing else included is like $38. And it's Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: tiny and mediocre quality, and nothing is included. So that and the salad and the garlic bread's like fifty or six. It's crazy. It's completely Lynda Harvey: yeah. Yeah. CX Joe: out of whack. It's like a multiple as expensive. Lynda Harvey: I know, I know. I do hope that you will leave me the name of that Italian restaurant for when I am staying at your abode. CX Joe: Trust me, I've thought about it already. It will be in the guide. Yes. Lynda Harvey: I want all the recommendations. All right. Well CX Joe: I should just mess with you and leave you the really expensive chicken farm wreck just bastard. Lynda Harvey: I'll just walk out. I'll be like, I don't owe you anything. Okay, well on that note, for people who are still CX Joe: On that note. Lynda Harvey: with us, like, follow, subscribe, do the things. Yeah. CX Joe: Look at that. You get surprised chicken cost of pasta and chicken parm episodes embedded in the other episode. It's Lynda Harvey: Yes. CX Joe: just we try to deliver value. Lynda Harvey: All the value. CX Joe: Yes. All right. Until next time. Lynda Harvey: Thanks everybody. CX Joe: Thank you so much. Bye.