Latest / Beat The Odds with Dre, Rodney, & Brylan / Amazon’s Agent Power Play, Meta’s AI Privacy Gamble & The Hands-Free Future

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Amazon’s Agent Power Play, Meta’s AI Privacy Gamble & The Hands-Free Future · Beat The Odds with Dre, Rodney, & Brylan

• Dre: Yo, what's good, man? Welcome back to another episode, man. It's me and Rodney today. Bradley's out, man, but we got some good topics. How's it going, bro? Rodney: Going on, man. I'm I'm doing alright. Halfway through the week, it's Wednesday, September 23rd. And yeah, I feel like we got some interesting things to talk about, especially one that maybe I underestimated, but yeah, how how how are you doing? Dre: Doing well, man. It's been a busy, busy but productive week. I'm in Austin, which is always good. I typically get a lot more a lot more work done here, less distractions. but yeah, man. But Rodney: Ha ha ha. Dre: yeah, man, it's been it's been good, man. This week has been flying about fast though. Rodney: Yeah, I find that having minimal distractions is very important. it is v Dre: Yeah, bro. 'Cause all I got really is the office, the gym, and then a workspace. Like I mean the place I'm sta I'm staying at. So it's like yeah, I have no choice. Rodney: that's perfect. that's perfect. That's perfect. Dre: I the the k the environment conditions just really force me to Rodney: That's perfect. Dre: to just focus on those things. So I'm either I'm at the office grind grinding, working on the shit I need to get done, I'm going to the gym, or I'm at the crib again finishing up on some shit, doing some shit on the computer. Rodney: that's n that's the nere a perfect life. So so the thing is, is that in my mind, if I had a place with a a a a office space or just like desk space and then a gym inside or like the sc the squat rack, that's perfect. Dre: Mm-hmm. Rodney: And then but also like of course there are times when you don't wanna just be at home so y you might want to go to a gym or office. So having both of those would be perfect. You see what I'm saying? So if you want to go to the gym, it's right there. It's close by. If you want to go to work, there are or there are offices or cafes nearby that are nice to work at. But if you're just feeling lazy, you could still get up, you know, put Put 225 on there, do a few reps, you know what I'm saying? Maybe start off a little bit a little bit lower though. Dre: Yeah, yeah. Rodney: I don't wanna don't start off at 225. Right? Like they don't don't start don't start un unless you've been really lifted for a minute, but that's two plates. But I'd be seeing people do three plates these days, and and in my personal opinion, you know, good for them. Good g good g Dre: Yeah. Rodney: good for them. I I mean I go up and wait consistently, if I ever go up to that. It's just that it's hard for me to see a reason to Dre: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rodney: to put three plates on there. Dre: Yeah, they gotta be they yeah, they gotta be body body building, strength something. Something something going on. 'Cause yeah, I can't I can't see a reason why. I can't see a reason why. Rodney: I don't see a reason. It's not that I was the only reason I can see is that if you were consistently working out and you just kept adding weight and it got up to that. But you weren't like looking at that as some type of milestone that like once you hit it, you're gonna get something for it. Like you're not gonna get Dre: Yeah. Rodney: you're you're not gonna get you're not gonna get something for it. It has to be like an internal thing, you know? Dre: I got a friend of mine, he I haven't talked to him in a while, I should catch up with him. But he bro, super skinny, slim slim guy, at least when I met him. And then I was just catching up with him randomly one day and he was like, Yeah, I've been bodybuilding. I'm like, wait, bodybuilding? He's like, Yeah, I got a competition coming up. And so Rodney: Yeah. geez. Dre: he I mean, he was just I mean, I again where he started from and where he at now, I would have never thought that. So he was training. Yeah, Rodney: Transformation, yeah. Dre: transformational, bro. Like he was training diet, Rodney: Yeah. Dre: whole diet obviously had to change. workout routine had to change, everything had to change. Even like his recovery process had to change. He was in like his I think he's probably in his late forties. So it's which Rodney: wow. Dre: I was I was even more impressed by because again, as you know, as you as you as you Rodney: Definitely it's harder. Dre: age, it's just is is way harder. All right. And you'll, you know, y you'll never be as strong after you leave your twenties. Like you know what I'm saying? Or at least or at least if you do Rodney: No. Well Dre: become s as strong, that recovery and injury rate is as different. Rodney: It'll be different. It'll be different. Dre: It's different it's different. It's different. So I was really impressed. Rodney: It'll it'll be different. It it'll be different. Dre: I was really impressed by his by his progress and his ability to grow his strength. You know, again trying to bodybuild and compete in actual competitions, you know, at that age. Rodney: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely, definitely. Like you said, you might get stronger when you're older, but it's not gonna be the same though. And one thing that I was I was talking to my younger brother about was just that I never like ever since high school I've pretty much been on weights. I've pretty much been on weights. But Dre: Yeah. Rodney: I never I never S I I I pretty much I I I was skinny. I was small and skinny, especially when I first started high school. And then I was on weights, more so the junior year, senior year, but not not too serious. So I had a I had some tone, but I still was pretty pretty small. and then college after college, I pretty much or just the early starts of college, I started working out and I've really been in shape that whole time. But then I fell off during COVID and I told my brother, I said, look, I cannot fall off. Like I have to work out now. Because if Dre: Yeah. Rodney: I fall off, climbing back up is gonna be impossible. Dre: Yeah, it's hard. It's hard. Yeah, yeah. It's tough. It's tough. Rodney: I don't I don't have it in me to like I'm great right now. I'm incredible shape. I'm on like one seventy seven, like I I mentioned before, ha my body fat is low, my strength is high. I I'm in a great place right now. It's just I can't but I also can't afford to stop. So I'm actually scared to skip the gym. 'Cause I don't wanna go backwards. Dre: Yeah, yeah, no, I feel I feel you. Yeah. Once you get to a certain point, like you said, that that climb back look like you're going over a mountain. Rodney: Cause when you're younger, yeah, like when you're younger, I d I didn't think about that at all. Like I didn't, I just like if whenever I need to get back up, I can just hop back up and I can get strong, I can get big, it Dre: Yeah, yeah. Rodney: no issue. It Dre: For sure. Rodney: it was way slower this time. I and I'm thinking, everything's so slow. Everything is Dre: Okay. Rodney: coming back slow. Dre: Hey. So the lesson in that for the listeners, don't take youth for granted for sure. And and Rodney: Don't absolutely not. Dre: enjoy it. Enjoy it. Stay in shape. Be as strong as possible. Be as healthy as possible. Don't take it for granted. It's hard to return back Rodney: Yes. Yes. Dre: to back to those glory days. Most people will never will. So Rodney: they never will and any and and we and if you look if you really observe you'll see it. But yeah. Dre: Mm-hmm. Rodney: yeah, we have some topics, man. Dre: We wanna start. We got we wanna start with Muse. Rodney: Yeah, let's yeah, let's do that. 'Cause I mean, they're saying it's the the next biggest launch comparable to the Chat GBT launch. It was Dre: Yeah. Yeah. So I I think we probably talked about it on here before, but for those is a reminder, so Meta Meta launched a new app called Muse. I think they launched it back in early September. Let me see the date. September eighth looks like is when they launched it. it reached number one in the app store pretty quickly across I think both Apple and Google. and it's been just in the news ever since. I think this is one of the fastest growing applications they've they've launched in a while. You know, Meta has been testing a bunch of different AI tools and strategies over the past couple of years, just trying to find their footing, you know, releasing a bunch of open source models, just trying to figure out how to how to make a lane. and I would say from everything so far, aside from the the open source models, this looks very promising. and not just the fact that it's growing, but really the feedback from people who are actually using it. And from what I'm seeing online is people are actually getting real value out of it. So value as in, hey, you know, connecting it to your email and and and actively being able to clear out your email for you or being able to do follow ups for you or being able to order stuff. I know they've been also launching a lot of different integrations. I've even seen some people connect their meta ads account. So if you run meta ads, Muse is actually really good at ad management, it looks like. Right, which is actually a pretty a pretty cool unlock. Let's say if you're a small business or even just an independent entrepreneur, you know, you it's just you as a as an individual team. so these tools are actually providing showing v a very good use. but yeah, that's what I've been seeing so far. What what have you been seeing out there, Rodney? Rodney: I've been seeing the same thing. People liking Muse, thinking that it's a great product. They're also finding it simple simple to get started. And there's some interesting capabilities people are using it for. Some are using it for as simple as Checking your Instagram for who's unfollowed you, which I thought was funny. That was like that that was like a really funny use case that I thought of. But I also thought that was funny because the first app, first Android app I ever made was exactly that for Twitter. And it blew up. And I just and I just find that Yeah I just find it funny that even fourteen years, fifteen years, however long that was, people still are on that. They and then it can make calls for you. Now, I saw some news today that they have some humans doing some of the calls. And my thing is who cares? Honestly, it's making the calls, it's getting the jobs done. That's saving people a lot of time, tasks that you have on your mind that you don't want to do because you're thinking, Okay, I gotta call, I gotta send it online, I gotta make time for this. It might not go right. It all these different things you start to and then you it becomes this whole thing in your brain that that you have to do. So I see muse as as something that is working well. And then apparently it's doing well in the app store. So that's good, but it's also a meta product. So they might we'll see how long it stays on the high rankings on the app store. And I there' there's another part of the muse thing that we're gonna talk about, but before I get into that, I I brought up something before called instinct, which is a text-based agent, which is often compared to muse. And I think that that agent was or is a really good agent because I'm already in my my iMessages and I have too many apps and even when I get rid of apps, I end up having to get a app for some other different reason. And so having apps kinda is not something that I enjoy. So I haven't really used Muse that much, to be honest. But the downside with Instinct is that Instinct does not have the resources that Meta does. So I did notice a slowdown, and even some people on X were talking about how they're introducing rate limits to Instinct. And that's interesting, but also not surprising, giving it's a startup. However, it's a startup that's trying to go big. I believe they're looking to raise $300 million. Dre: Yeah, they're getting a lot they've been getting a lot of traction. You're right, compared to Muse, I think Muse is is well positioned. First off, I think Meta is probably one of the best companies in the world positioned to be able to create a personal AI assistant that's actually useful for consumers. I I think they actually are the are the best positioned to do it. Not to say they're the only ones that can do it. I think Instinct and I think some other ones are are obviously in the in the race as well. and and can do it, but for all the reasons you mentioned from a resource standpoint, from a talent standpoint, a capital standpoint, from a a platform integration standpoint, Medage is well positioned. you talk about you know in here in America we use iMessage that you know by far is probably the most popular messaging app in America. But as soon as you step outside the walls of America, WhatsApp is the dominating messaging app. It literally dominates in out outside of China. Right, China has their own ecosystem of of of messaging apps. But everywhere else Rodney: Yeah. Dre: in the world that I've ever been, WhatsApp is king. And so Rodney: Yeah. Dre: I think Meta has a real clear lane to integrate this Rodney: For sure. Dre: deeply within WhatsApp. I'm sure they've already done that, but continue to do that deeply within w in in WhatsApp. so you can get that same crisp feeling that you felt and that I feel as well when I use Instinct. So I think they're well positioned to do it. Again, they already got the distribution out there. They seem to have have have hit it from a product standpoint. so I think it's just a matter of continue to scale it up. Again, it's not it hasn't even been a month yet. and it's it's the only thing that I've been seeing. I mean, one of the main topics I've been seeing is just in the world of AI. So I'm excited for t to see how they continue to advance it. Rodney: Yeah, definitely, definitely. I think they're w definitely well positioned. I think Instinct got a nice hit because of the nature of the it it's w it's a product that just works. See, that's the key, man. That's one of the big things that almost everybody is missing out on is that When you make a product and it just works, that's the best feeling. And it makes you refer it. Now I will get on them a bit and I had to DM the founders because it's it's you can't I shared it with people and most of the time it went well. But right around the time they slowed down, somebody got back to it or tried it and it wasn't texting them back. And it's just for me it made me realize, okay, even though this is not my product, they put me in a mission where I recommended it to people they actually tried it. And then it didn't work. So then now I don't feel as good about their product. even Dre: Yeah. Rodney: though I do like it. But then also I'm like disappointed and I see the importance of products that have word of mouth. Cause that's pretty much how I got instinct through word of mouth. And so I think they're they they're different and they they have different resources. and then there's nothing stopping news from having a direct phone number. That's so so It it just doesn't have that right now. But if instinct has it, Muse could do its stuff in the app. But there's also a possibility they might have a number. Even ChatGPT has its own number. So it they may do that in the future. I I like that UX personally. but what's Dre: Mm-hmm. Rodney: ins but what's interesting is a couple of things. I would say the divide in productivity amongst people and then I would say the the moves by bigger players like Amazon. Now before the call we talked about Amazon blocking instinct or actu I'm sorry, muse, but probably instinct as well at some point. And they're claiming s security concerns and things of this nature, but what did we really take from that? Dre: Yeah, I think there's I think that I think that's fair. I I I think there's that's fair and security concerns, but I don't think that's the whole truth. I think that may be a truth and I can see that being a a plausible truth, but I don't think that's the only truth. I I I I probably would lean towards the fact that Amazon probably just wants to own that channel. Or maybe they do want to come up with more rules for how agents should interact with Amazon. I I do ultimately think that will be beneficial to Amazon. Right. And so I think if they see that wave with other marketplaces, like for example, Muse announced a partnership with Shopify. So now you'll be able to order directly through Muse, you know, from a ton of different millions of Shopify stores. Right. So I I think if if Amazon starts to see this as a modality that really starts to take off and becomes, you know, a a real channel for commerce, then I can see them, you know, maybe opening it back up. But I ultimately I see them probably just go wanting to own that lane themselves with their Alexa platform or whatever else they have cooking up, maybe it's some exclusive partnership or maybe Anthropic, 'cause I know they they have some investment there, or some other player. but ultimately I don't buy it that it's just purely about security. and I actually think this is I I was hearing this argument on on X and I I tend to agree with it. I think this is a good opportunity for another big player, which is Walmart. I've been reading a book about Walmart, I think it's called Made in America. It was written by Sam Walton. Highly recommend it. an incredible, incredible book about how Walmart was built brick by brick, which I think his story is one that doesn't get told much 'cause he's not in technology and is not really that shiny. But he's one of the most incredible founders because it's come out of America. But I say that like tip for Walmart is well positioned. And so I hope they lean into this, even if Amazon decides not to. so yeah, that's kinda how I How how I see it. Rodney: I definitely th think that somebody should lean into it. Somebody should lean into it. I can see Amazon looking at it from a standpoint of yeah, we just need to do that. Why why have somebody else do that? And I can see Walmart, who's not a traditional technology company but does have a technology arm. But are not traditional technology company. I can see them looking at it a bit different. And it becomes interesting because I saw this conversation about Amazon doesn't want to be a purely logistical company. They want to have you know the the the experience. They want you to have an Amazon experience. And an aging. pretty much g gets rid of that whole it just bypasses all that and focus on pragmatic. Another thing that it does is it removes the value of ads if enough people if enough people are using that channel. And so that I can that's that's an angle that I did that I didn't consider until somebody brought that up to me. And another one is that We are going into a territory that reminds me of when I was when I was a kid, right? When I was a kid, I made bots for video games and online games and stuff like that. And and one of the big things that kept happening was they because of all the bots, at some point the pro problem got bad enough that the people in the games got upset or they had complaints. Most people didn't care, but some people did. Enough people were loud enough. And then also the game developers cared. And so and so they created a lot of these different games in the game. So let's say you're just randomly doing something in the game and it would just randomly take you to some other scenario that only in their minds only a human can solve. Now, the reason they do this is because it's not that if you fail that you get banned, but it it starts to mark against you if you keep failing these these weird tests. Part of what they were doing though was trying to test you, but also if we test you, we're gonna reward you. So a lot of times if you if you if you won these games, you would basically get some type of reward. I forg I forget exactly what they were, but anyways, the reason I bring that up is because I see that and we already have the the Cloudflare click on this and move this around, move this puzzle around and all all these different things, but I see a similar game that was played back in the video game era and I find that to be interesting because of course what we did was well, we're selling bots, but you don't you're not gonna buy the bots if you think they're gonna get you banned. If I made 200,000, by the way, just so I I never tell people this, but I may have made $200,000 myself. However, the product, the first product that I ever published made nearly $500,000 or half a million. 200 was my piece. So just to put that out there. But I just want to say that I never really shared that detail. and imagine if I was better at negotiation, but imagine how many people did not get that bot because of the simple fact that they thought they were gonna get banned. So if I was making so if I made 200,000, imagine how many more sales I would have made from people who were like, I'm not gonna get banned. And so, anyways. to bring it you know bring it back around that whole race about and like people are gonna want to use agents that's just what it's gonna be and that creates a gap. Dre makes a good point Walmart will probably I they probably will fill that gap or if not I I I think that's one way for them to almost get like a a leg up on Amazon for a game that they kinda have been struggling a bit by from a standpoint of Amazon is n is now a serious competitor to them. And yeah. Dre: Mm-hmm. Well, Shopify Shopify is leaning into it as well. So I I I think that'll you know, that has real potential, right? There are literally millions of Shopify stores out there. And there are some big retailers that are built on Shopify, right? Some some real big retailers Rodney: Yeah. Dre: that move real units. And so, you know, I I think that's at least in the right in the right direction. But again, I I do hope, you know, some of these legacy players compete. And I hope Amazon decides to do it as well. Cause to your point, I think people want to use these bots. And so I think there's a serious conversation going on at a lot of retail companies, at a lot of software companies, and just how to embrace that, that new reality. Right? How do we how do we embrace Rodney: Yeah, exactly. Dre: how do we embrace both, right? 'Cause I I do think this is this is gonna be the way. Rodney: Gee, and that's the part I think people are gonna find to be hard is how can they embrace both when when everything's not always everything's not always in their benefit in a way. So or or they can't clearly see how something's in their their benefit. And and Dre: Yeah. But I ca I I can see the con the can the security concern. I can also see I can see the the resource concern as well. You got, you know, mil imagine just millions and millions and millions of bots just coming on your site. They're not actually even doing no value. They're just inundating your site with shit. I mean that's pretty resource intensive for a company of Amazon's scale. Rodney: Yeah, for sure. For sure. So I can see the resource problem. I can see the security problem, but let me relate it to something that I just found out earlier. So Woop recently came out and said that Woop developers are not going to be able to use Woop data to train and AI models and data sets or AI systems. The the or AI systems part is very vague. And that's the part that gets tricky because essentially and and they're citing concerns over user data, stuff of that nature. But just so people know. With Whoop, you cannot get the information from the device without like so a developer can't just pull random people's data. So if I make an app and I say, okay, I'm like Woop approves me, I make an app using their API. I can pull data. Once that person has agreed that I can pull that data, they're saying That data cannot be used to train new models or anything or or anything like that. So of course you can see the security concern. But what you have when you read between the lines, is this more of a concerted concern, or is it those two things that Dre mentioned? One, the amount of the the amount of what's the word? Traffic coming through the APIs may increase and you may not be prepared for that. And maybe your business model doesn't charge for a world with agents. And then two, in in their case, is it just that you guys don't want anybody to compete with your AI coach. Right? So they have an AI coach that they have and they're they're doing Is it really about the user's data per se? Is it for sure? I mean, we can kind of see that angle, but is it more about the fact that they have an AI coach product? They call your data whoop data, which I'll give them for the recovery scores, I'll give them for the health score, I'll give them for that. But your resting heart rate is not whoop's data. And and that's a clever that's a clever wording, of course, legalese. Where and so this whole thing about agents is gonna be interesting. I know Amazon I I I I think Amazon is probably worried about yeah, things spiraling out of control for sure. And They know there will be agents browsing their site, but they're not trying to make it easy. They they don't want the general public Yeah, you know, they don't want the general p public to just be able to have things on a automatic and it's just going through a a third party. Dre: Yeah. Yeah, I think I think that's Rodney: And yeah. Dre: the problem. I don't I don't think they like that. I think it I think if maybe if there was an integration where maybe customer data was shared potentially. But as good as these agents are getting with like computer use and using the browser, you know, it it it it really it Rodney: Yeah. Yeah. It's heavy. Dre: really can add a a real extraction you know extraction layer between Rodney: Yeah, 'cause you're loading images and all types stuff. Dre: yeah, between Amazon and the and the consumer. So I mean, you know, should am I guess the question is from a business standpoint, and I I'm sure this is probably what they're thinking, right? Is do we need to know our customers? Do we need to know exactly who we're who we're who we're shipping to a Rodney: Ha ha ha. Dre: and and who's buying and who's buying our products? Rodney: That's that that's an identity crisis because now it's it's it's y right, do we need to control the full experience? Or can people just have agents, you know, make decisions, shopping decisions automatically on the fly, you know, without them thinking 'cause this this this is the w this is the world they're going to. When people have these families And now they can just have agents automatically pre pre pre figure out what's what's good for the household, whatn they are i it it's no, they don't want that because again it turns Amazon into something else. It's still Amazon, but then it is it that really Amazon is just an API at that point and nobody cares about the Amazon experience. And so Dre: Mm-hmm. Rodney: that that that that that is funny. To me that's funny. That that that that because you might wonder, it's it's like you I don't know, Dre: I think there's also two probably concerned about the experience and the discoverability of products. I I think there's real c I I don't know, man. I think I think there's a lot of scenarios, right? Where I I I can see Rodney: Yes. Dre: the s I could see the scenario where having all these agents could impact revenue. I could see that scenario, right? Because I think maybe and maybe, right? Again, I don't this may not be true. This is where like they probably just don't know enough, right? I I can understand where you would wanna crawl before you run in this scenario, right? Like, because there is a dependent upon an agent, you know, how you tend to, you know, engage with the agent, there is a removal of the disc of discovery, right? When Rodney: Yes. Dre: you're in a retail business, it's all about discovery, right? It's all about discovery and merchand and merchandising. That's what Sam Walton used to call it merchandising, which is laying out products in a very specific way. Yeah, exactly. They want they want to show well Rodney: You're right. They wanna sell you things you don't need. Dre: That that too, but also too some stuff that you may need that you may not even thought about. You know what I'm saying? Like it is both. Rodney: That's true. That's fair. Dre: So is is it's it's a little bit of both. I think there's some things yeah you don't need, but some things you may you Rodney: Yeah, fair. Dre: may not you may not even know you need. You know what I'm saying? I think that's the magic behind being able to control that merchandising, that discovery pro you know, experience, right? And so I think that gets extracted away a little bit, a little bit, potentially, when you just have an Asians. And so if I if I look at it from Amazon perspective, that would That would definitely impact revenue. Right. Does that impact, you know, revenue for every single session, you know, per car? Like I I think there's a lot of things to consider there, before you start to scale that up. and I'd imagine that's what they're thinking. I I would imagine these are some of the discussions that they're probably having. I in addition to the legal implications. Again, do we need to know who our customers are? Like how responsible or liable are we, you know, for that? You know, I there's probably a little bit of that. There's probably a lot of discussions probably around it. I would imagine. Rodney: Well the thing is is that the the one thing is s so yeah, definitely. I don't think they've done anything wrong. I wanna say that off drum. I don't think Amazon, specifically Amazon, I I'm not gonna speak on Woop but I don't think Amazon has done anything wrong by wanting to control the experience. I will say that the agent experience doesn't get rid of the know your customer aspect because it requires you to sign into Amazon. And so once you do that, because they did a partnership with LastPass. So once you have added Dre: dead. Rodney: your inform use, I was instinct did it instinct did it, but instinct has a different way. They they ask for your password in this encrypted form. You just you just trust that's encrypted, you don't really know. And and and I mean this stuff is teaching me a lot about user experience for sure. I mean I I there's Dre: But I but I wanna I wanna I wanna add to one thing though. I think it does potentially do that because that that assumes that you're using the person's Amazon account. Right? They don't have to. Instinct could create a single Amazon account or create a multiple internal Amazon accounts and ship you product. Right? They don't necessarily you don't necessarily have to use that person's Amazon account. Rodney: The the that's true, that's true. Te but it but from a technical standpoint, that would be one of the easiest things to to to detect because if if they may one, they would either have to one make a bunch of accounts or two, those accounts would have a bunch of different attributes and it and the behavior would be suspicious. It'd be so easy. It it'd be so it it'd be so easy. I'm not saying that that that that Dre: think it's not that it's easy to detect. I'm I'm just I'm I'm just pointing it it it's not it's not as hard. Rodney: But I'm just letting you know that's not what they do right now though. That's not what they do right now. Like like right now, you have to sign in on both instinct and and muse. If you were to tell us to do an order, it's gonna they're gonna ask you for their credentials in their own way. So so not to say that that could never be a problem in the future where they could have it so they make an account. I'm just saying that right now you can't just order something and just and just put your address in and then get it to you with your payment method. It it it goes through your Amazon account, with your credentials, username, password, and they ask for it. But here's the thing though. There is a can of worms that you have brought up, which is that Basically the internet's not ready for agent use. Dre: No, they're not. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, what I'm bringing up isn't even about instinct or muse. This is just agents and agents in general. I instinct and muse may be approaching it the right way, which is hey, let's authenticate. But that doesn't Rodney: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Dre: stop somebody else with an open source model that wants to build the Muse three point Rodney: No, no. Dre: from from from doing that. So yeah, I'm just bringing up what probably some of those internal conversations are are looking like. What I would imagine from a product team at the executive team on the legal side as well, just what some of the potential concerns could be. But I think ultimately it comes down to I I think my my opinion would be that the removal of being able of discoverability. I I think that is a that's that's a huge piece that I I think might be might be might be getting the way there. Rodney: It's a big piece. Cause 'cause one f one, off jump that affects ads. But then it also take the ads out of it. It affects sellers. How do we know that an AI is not funneling all of certain queries to certain sellers in it for Dre: Mm-hmm. Rodney: its own reasons or its own pa like it it it does turn into a strange situation. And so I wonder if we see some more of those tests to essentially these these bot tests more often, which makes things a bit more annoying for people who are using the internet normally. but I guess we'll see. I guess we'll see. Dre: Where we want to go next. Rodney: So let's see. I think that we there was Amazon, there's Meta. So Meta and now Dre: I have something for Door DoorDash. really, we ha what else would matter? What else would matter? Rodney: So real quick with Meta, they're they're launching some new glasses. and they should have things like live live translations, maps, etc. They're also coming out with a new meta glasses that don't have a camera on it, probably because a lot of the backlash of people having meta glasses, but then they have like cameras. And and meta's been doing a l a a bunch of privacy related stuff to show people that they're serious. For example, they have something in the software where if you tamper with the camera in any way they will permanently ban that little set of glasses and which I find interesting and so I I I find that interesting because at that point you don't own your glasses so Dre: Yeah, babe. Rodney: you see what I'm saying? But at that point you don't own your glasses. I mean maybe if they said you can't Upload to Instagram and they blocked you or whatever the case is. But once you buy the glasses, you should be able to do whatever you want with the glasses. Now, if you're doing weird stuff with the glasses and you get caught, you should get charged, just like how anybody else would get charged on some weird stuff. But I don't I don't agree with tapping into people's devices and and and banning. And I I know we didn't bring that up, but my mind just went there. I I I don't I don't I understand why where it's coming from and why they're doing it. 'Cause they want to tell people, hey, look, we we we are we heard what people are saying, we we hear about people's privacy concerns, people are now starting to associate metaglasses in least favorable ways, depending on the context. when I first got Snap glasses or the s or the specs, which specs also came out with their n a new version specifically for businesses. But when I first had the specs, the consumer ones and then I first had the meta glasses, they weren't at a place where they had this thing where people thought but of course We live in a content era though, so people are creating content. Meta had to ban a bunch of content that people were creating if it was films. So I agree with that. So if you film certain content with meta glasses, then they're gonna just block block your ban your Instagram account. Ban I agree with that, but disabling the glasses I felt is a step too far. Dre: Hmm. Yeah, I agree. Especially for a company that claims to want to be open, right? Rodney: Yeah, I mean if you buy a car, so so now if you speed, they're gonna turn your car off. Dre: Yeah. Rodney: It's like it's you you own it at this point? Who know like who knows? It's just a it's a it the lines are getting blurry with a lot of stuff. Dre: Yeah. No, I agree. That is interesting. I've always been a huge fan. I mean you you are been a a big advocate of the meta glasses. So I I end up getting getting some. And I Rodney: I am, I I am. I am. Dre: told my boy about He ended up getting some. So I I rave about Like I I love Use all the time. Rodney: Yeah. Dre: so yeah, I'm definitely gonna try to cop a pair of the new of the new joints and see, check out. I wanna get the ones with the the screen on the inside. I haven't even tried yet, but I Rodney: Yeah. Dre: think you can you can go to the store and try Rodney: Yeah, I tried I tried at the store, man. and I would Dre: They're good. Rodney: say if I'm I'm excited for the next generation because this generation definitely is good. I mean, you put them on, and one of the things I could see was was the live translation. So they we put on live translation, and then somebody started speaking another language, and you could just see it come up on the screen. You could just Dre: Mm. Rodney: see what they're saying come up on your screen. That's some futuristic stuff. And then Cause imagine you're in another country and you just wear those. They're not gonna know what it is. You but you got them on. You talk they're Dre: Mm-hmm. Rodney: talking. Now, it may not be easy for you to talk back, but you definitely are gonna understand real quick. and the whole I can see this whole translation thing in the world being so almost irrelevant in just a matter of a handful of years. and Dre: Mm hmm. Well, I guess in the world they see everybody got on. So it's like you will be able to talk back. Everybody everybody just speaks their language. In a perfect girl. Rodney: Yeah, definitely, definitely, definitely. real quick, so that's one of the things I wanna talk about too is before we get to DoorDash, which is a very important one, but There are different worlds that people live in. We've we've always known this, but in the technology world, Right. So you have this world that maybe this the end world of where of where Google and Apple and Meta want you to live in where you can go anywhere, know the language, know the language, and be able to communicate and connect with with with whoever. Easy, simple, hands free nearly. And so that's like a future world. Then you have the instincts, the muses or whatever. And those the worlds where you don't gotta think, where your your finances are managed, your days planned, your your body's tracked, and you know to i i everything is almost autonomous, essentially. And you hop into a car, it's it has it's driverless. Hands free, friction free. I I see the and what I find interesting about technology is that you get to live in like the early janky version of the new world. and I think I think the company that is best known for when the wood when the world when the world is almost complete or it's or it's just at that right level is Apple. Apple seems to be the the the the the guys that come in not first, not immediately, but they come in right as everything is digestible to the consumer. So I'm inter I'm I'm I I that's what I anticipate because MetaGlasses are great, even the display ones are great, but I can say with full certainty, if Apple took what they got with the Vision Pros and made those, if they could if they could shrink that technology down, it would kill everything. It would kill everything. Everything would kill. Dre: think Apple should advance the ear pods, bro. Like AirPods. Like Rodney: Mm-hmm. Dre: I everywhere I've been, like I see AirPods everywhere. Now some of could be Rodney: Yeah. Dre: knockoffs and replicas, but Rodney: yeah. Dre: the but but they're everywhere. Like people people have And so I actually think that's the perfect form factor, especially for like language translation. Right? Like you already got the you already got a microphone and a and a headset in your ear, right? So Rodney: Right. Mm-hmm. Dre: We use them to talk on the phone anyway. So I I feel like that's the best way to just like put a live translation. In addition to glasses, being able to see it, but just being able to talk and hear it hear it back. But yeah, I really want them to do more with the earpods, bro. Like I I would love to be able to go out and not have to have my phone with me and just be able to have my earpods. Similar Rodney: Yeah. Dre: to how some people do with like their watch. But I do agree with you though, like Apple Apple is really good at timing. Like consumer timing. They're really, really good at that. They're really good Rodney: Yes. Consumer timing, yes, consumer timing. Dre: at that. Plus combining just like industrial design with manufacturing and just like bring like just orchestrating all those complex things and bringing it all together. They're really good at that. So I agree. Whatever they launch in that space, whatever it is, whether it's like you said, shrinking the the the headset down the glasses or whatever form factor they see, whether it's the air pods or whatever it is, is you know it's gonna be good. And you know it's gonna work. It's gonna be a smooth experience, whatever it is. Rodney: It yeah, it's gonna work. have you tried the Vision Pro? Okay, okay. What we need Dre: No, no I haven't. Every time I've tried to use it they have it. They they didn't have it or it was or like something. I need to yeah. Rodney: Dang, if if you can, if while you're in Austin, ca maybe it's a different environment you switch up. While you're in Austin, man, try to try try to book an appointment to to on your lunch break or whatever it is the time. Try to book an appointment to to Division Pro in the closest Apple store or whoever has it. It it it is it is underestimated. I'll put it like that. It's it's underestimated. It it's you can't use it and then not see the future that's unfolding. And it's and I've tried the meta display glasses, I got meta glasses myself, I've tried meta VR headset. I was I don't even wanna put too much 'cause 'cause I'm just it's just something that that I hope you see soon. I hope I hope you see soon. And Dre: Yeah. Rodney: and then also while you're out there, if you can get in I mean, please get into a robo taxi 'cause no they got the Dre: Yeah, I've done Waymo. I tried Waymo a couple times. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've used Waymo Rodney: Okay, okay. You know, okay, well okay. How was that? Dre: a couple times. I haven't used Tesla's Robo Taxi. I think those are in Austin. I've been seeing them a lot more Rodney: Yeah. Dre: in Houston. So I know they're at least training in Houston. I don't know if it's available, but I haven't Rodney: Mm-hmm. Dre: used that yet. But bro, Waymo is seamless. I love the experience. I've used it a f I've used it several times, even in Houston. We Rodney: Crazy, right? It's crazy. Dre: have we have it in Houston. It's not all it's in select areas in Houston, but yeah, it's Rodney: Yeah. Dre: available. It's available. So I've used it a lot. Rodney: It's crazy, right? Dre: Yeah, it's it's it's yeah, it's it's incredible, man. Like the whole experience. I mean the the the call the hell another car experience, getting in, the drop off, everything. Like and I I I I like it better than the driver, bro, because sometimes sometimes when Rodney: Way better. Dre: I get in the car with a driver, I don't be willing talk. Some drivers, some drivers want to talk, bro. Rodney: Well, a lot of people say that though. A lot of people say that. Dre: And even like with Uber, they got Uber Comfort, bro. I'll be s I be doing Uber Comfort, right? And I select Rodney: Mm. Dre: quiet. Rodney: And I still come and talk. Dre: Even when I select that, they still be want to talk. I'm like, damn, what's the point in paying the extra if you're not even gonna follow the instructions? Like, bro, cause you know Uber Comfort be a little bit more, maybe a little bit, just a little bit. Rodney: Yeah. Yeah, a couple dollars. Dre: Yeah. I'm like, damn, you still trying to talk. So the with the Waymo, you don't have Rodney: Okay. Dre: that experience, bro. So I really want to try, what is it, Zocks or Zooks? I don't know how you Rodney: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. S San Francisco. Dre: I wanna try that experience. Yeah, because what they're the the difference between them for those who've never tried either of Waymo uses the best I would describe in a Ronnie, feel free to chime in, a pre existing car essentially. Right? They use I think the Jaguar or whatever model that is. Like it's like a crossover SUV. And then they basically Rodney: Mm. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Dre: just retrofit it with all their sensors and cameras and all their technology. But at all intents and purposes, it's just a a regular car that you you could actually anybody could buy. I just want to have the the LIDAR and all that stuff on it. But what Zeux is doing, they've essentially built a brand new platform from the ground up. and it's a vehicle that doesn't have a steering wheel. So I would say I'm just gonna use my own word, a non-traditional vehicle, I would say, right? Without a steering wheel and without the traditional vehicle layout that most people are are typically accustomed to. So I wanna I wanna try that experience. I did have a try weight mode. Rodney: Yeah, definitely. And is it a one of those experiences that lets you know what you step into it and you see the future. You step into it and y Dre: A hundred percent. Rodney: and you're and you're like, Okay, I see. I see. I I Dre: A hundred percent. A hundred per I I don't even see how honestly I struggle to see what what is Uber gonna do. I think this is a major inflection point for Uber where if if they mismanage this, I think Uber is gonna be a really interesting failed business study where you're gonna see the rise through the TK error, right? And then you're gonna see the takeover by Dara and the and and the I will call it the corporate corporate takeover, right? He sustained some Rodney: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dre: growth. He he has grown Uber. He's done a phenomenal job from a corporate standpoint. But then I think you're gonna see a massive decline because I I don't see how a a a network like Uber will be able to keep up what from a cost structure standpoint with Waymo. I I just don't see it. I can see why Waymo will maybe charging premium or even on par pricing right now because they're still trying to get the scale. They got a lot of costs and the network that they're trying to iron out. Like I I I can understand that. But at some point, what w what's gonna stop them from charging five dollars for a ride? You know, or seven dollars Rodney: Mm-hmm. Dre: for a ride. Well Uber charging twenty dollars, right? Rodney: Yeah. Dre: Or twenty five dollars, cause now they got a driver, right? Or they got some law, like laws in New York where you gotta pay a minimum amount per hour you know, a minimum amount per hour. How can Rodney: Mm-hmm. Dre: you compete with that? Drivers already Rodney: Yeah that Dre: complain. I got an Uber the other day, bro, the driver Out of nowhere, bro. Again, a quiet comfort. She was like, Yeah, you paying me this much. She was like, Uber takes like she's I think she said it was like fifty percent. Like it was something crazy. Rodney: Nobody wants to hear that. Nobody wants to hear that while that while while you like you said you checked off the box. Nobody wants to hear that. Dre: No, for real. For real. She should have she is trying to put me onto another app. I forget the name of it. I gotta look. She was trying to put me onto another app that I guess some Uber drivers came together to build. They built like their own ride sharing app. I forget the name. I think it's it'll come to me. But they I think it's called Empower. Rodney: They need to find a new profession. Dre: A new Empower, that's what it's called. They they basically built a new driver app called Empower, where drivers get a hundred percent of the revenue from their drives. I'm like, Yeah, that's not gonna scale. How you gonna operate a business giving away all the money? Rodney: They it yeah, I was saying they they need to find a new profession. It is what it is. Automated c automated driving, it is what it is. It is what Dre: It's gone away. Rodney: it is. And the and the only thing that's gonna happen is is that it's gonna get slowed down, but it's not gonna get stopped. It's it's it's gonna get slowed down. I can see but the I can also see that they're pay one thing about you don't have to tell Waymo and Tesla to pace the frontier. They're they're they're not they're they're they're paced. With this with this automated rollout, they're not going right by they're paced. But also because the stakes are so clear. Car accident kills one to how many people injure somebody severely. So it's much easier. But I think they are pacing stuff, so maybe they might not get that slow down. but yeah, speaking of just of just the convenience era, Doordash, right? Then they they had a lawsuit in New York. Dre: Yeah, so I I think it was just announced today, if I'm not mistaken. But yeah, Rodney: Yeah. Dre: NYC announced a settlement yesterday over delivery workers being underpaid, unpaid or paid late. More than a hundred and fifteen million dollars will go to over two hundred and sixty thousand workers, with the remainder covering penalties and costs. So the total lawsuit or total sentiment weather was a hundred and thirty one million dollars, basically. so $115 million of that will go towards the actual workers. Again, $200, I'm sorry, yeah, $260,000 workers. and then the remainder again goes towards penalty and costs for the actual lawsuit to take place. Doordash came out, they they acknowledged a mistake. they said it wasn't intentional and they promised to correct it. they're they're saying that this was a software mistake. maybe that is true. But, you know, I I I've worked with Doordash, you know, very intimately a couple of years ago when I was launching ghost kitchens and building like national restaurant brands Rodney: right. Dre: through existing restaurants. You know, basically going to existing restaurants that had extra capacity. And then we were building these restaurants on DoorDash and Uber Eats and Grubhub. And I and and I saw from that experience how it was always questi the accounting was always questionable. It's kinda like the music industry. Rodney: Yeah. Dre: Right. That's what it reminded me of, right? When you hear artists talk about, you know, whenever they Rodney: Yeah. Dre: hire like a third party accountant to come in and audit the record label, they always find something. They always find some numbers is off some money that ain't even paid. It's always like that. And it just Rodney: Right. Right. Dre: seemed to be the case where DoorDash, like it was always like something didn't quite add up. Some refund wasn't there. Some charge didn't come through. Some some amount wasn't right. Like it was it was always something. and that that made me instantly just not trust Doordash, right? And I I end up I end up deciding actually when I closed down those restaurants to build a tool for restaurants to be able to fight refunds because it was even hard to even dispute refunds as a restaurant. It was hard to even get your money back. Even even in cases where you were clearly being where it was a clearly a fraudulent case, right? Like Doordash has made it hard. And so that that that that already put that put a sour taste in my mouth around how DoorDash operates, how it treats the contractors that it works with, right? and then you see the same thing with Uber. Uber is no different. Grubhub, they're no different. but again, DoorDash is operates at a different scale. Uber operates at a different scale. And so again, when you mismanage that across 260,000 people, it's hard for me to s it's hard for me to look at that and say that was just a oopsie. Right? Like maybe it was, right? but I don't I don't I don't know. I don't think that's hard to believe. And then I also believe that every other city that operates DoorDash should do the same type of audit of a county because I guarantee you that this is not just explicit to New York. Rodney: Yeah, yeah, every city should definitely do an audit of DoorDash. And yeah, you're not the first person that has told me about some of the things that they do. I think that I think every like I think every city, every state should should do an audit. I I don't see them being malicious, but I see them being negligent. So what I mean is like I see them maybe having some technical issues, but then also I see them knowing about a problem. Here's the thing, if you have a technical issue and you don't know about it, that's one thing. I see them having a technical issue. And maybe they have made changes to resolve it or whatever the case is. But part of making the changes or even if you got it working, is that you have to go back and audit all the stuff that was incorrect before. But I also do find it a bit strange how and I don't have I would have to look into the specific case, but I find it a a bit strange where with with with These type of things you would think that there would be almost no errors because it's pretty straightforward, right? There's the order, there's the price of the order, and the price that you charge the customer. And based off that price, there's an amount that you're supposed to get, there's an amount that the driver is supposed to get, and there's an amount that the restaurant is supposed to get. And it's just a simple formula. It's not this overcomplicated thing. So it is a bit I I do see why people might see maybe not the best intent. I can see that. I can see that. at the same time, I can't s but at the same time I can't see a team thinking, hey, you know what? Let's just skim a little bit. I can't see them thinking I can't I can't see a team. I could I couldn't. Dre: Yeah. Well I I I could totally I could totally see that bro. It happens all the time. Like like like if you like because certain teams are incentivized to hit certain metrics, right? Incentives drive everything, right? And when you when you may be incentivized to hit certain metrics, I mean integrity is maybe not the the the best in everybody. I mean we we we know the case of even Uber, right? a lot of Uber employees did a bunch of questionable things internally. Rodney: It did, they Dre: Right, they built tools, they spied on competitors, right? They Rodney: did, they did, it did, it did. Dre: they they they participated in egregious behavior. It happens. I mean that that happens and that happens not even just in tech, Rodney: Yeah. Okay. Dre: but just in corporate America. So I can totally, totally see that. Now again, is it cascading from the top all the way down? Like did the CEO know about it? Was he in on it? Probably not. You know, was the VP that manages that part of the organization was he in on it? Probably not. But can I see a group of employees You know what I'm saying? Making some decisions that maybe not but maybe in the best interest of the company, a hundred percent. 'Cause it happens. Rodney: What I what what I could see, and I said that that can't happen. What I can see is somebody made an engineering mistake and it said if if they were to admit the mistake, the numbers would have dropped some larger mile. So maybe they patched it up. But then admit Dre: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's possible. Didn't go back didn't go Rodney: Yeah, I can see that. Which is bad too. Dre: back didn't go back and audit it. Yeah, for sure. For sure. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Rodney: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause yeah, 'cause 'cause I'd be thinking but I'm on the team and I know that we're s we're skimming, I'd be thinking, I I'd I I'd have a hard time. And it's not because I'm like super moral, but I'd be thinking my worst case scenario one. Am I gonna lose my job for multiple reasons? Am I gonna go to jail? Just cause j 'cause just because they saying to do it don't mean I should do it. Right? Like so I be I'll be but then, you know, again there are people who they're they're Things happen and where things happen. And so if it was malicious, that's crazy. That that if it was a group internally that said, you know what? We gotta hit these numbers at all costs. So that means we gotta take away from restaurants and drivers, we're gonna do that. If that if that's what that means, that's crazy. That's crazy. That's crazy. Dre: Bro. Yeah, I y I'll you I'll tell this I'll tell this quick story because I just saw this update on it a couple of weeks ago. There is a blog, this is this is about eBay, right? There's a blog, I forgot forget the name of it, but they basically write reviews for eBay sellers. They're basically a place where sellers can voice their concerns about eBay, what's happening on eBay, you Rodney: Mm-hmm. Dre: know, rules, discuss all those things. It's like a almost like a forum for sellers. But they also publish internal articles about what's happening on eBay. And I guess eBay executives found out about this and they were very dissatisfied with the narrative that was kind of taking place. And so a very, very high-up executive report reported directly to the CEO, authorized some eBay employees to basically do whatever it takes to stop this blog, to shut it down, do whatever it takes. Bro, some of these employees did egregious shit like mail. A dead pig head to these people's house, bro. Or they would like they would harass them through text messages Rodney: Yeah. Dre: and phone calls. They would stalk them. Somebody, one of the employees actually flew to the city that this couple a couple owned the blog, a husband and wife. One of the eBay employees flew to the city that the couple lived in, rented a van from like Enterprise, and was like sitting outside of their house and like fucking with them. So like calling them and then like saying, look out the window. You know, just just fuck on them. Obviously, Rodney: Right. Right. Right. Dre: the couple didn't know it was an eBay. E eBay employees, right? So th th if good. Rodney: So so so Yeah. Sorry. So then we'll so people will just do anything for money, huh? Dre: Or anything for money, but this was bro, this was authorized. I I tell I tell this story because again, like, you know, some people may not know how how how some of these companies what to the extent that they're willing to go to when they don't like what's happening, right? Or when they want to do things in their favor. In this case, this was a simple husband and wife that happened to own a platform that was big, but it wasn't as big as eBay, right? And here you have an executive, a vice president of a company. Authorizing his his lower middle management employees to essentially do whatever, right? And again, he he tried plausible deniability. So he, you know, didn't tell them what to do, but he also didn't put constraints on what they couldn't do. Right. And so again, they're stalking this couple, they're mailing shit, harassing them, all this and that. And in the end, some of these employees actually end up getting charged and going to jail and going to prison. and so and so again, you know, I I just point to Rodney: That's so that's my point. So that's my point. So that's my point. Y'all told Dre: like again. Some things in these companies are intentional, some things are mistakes. So you know, I just I don't put anything past nobody. Like at the end of the day, you got humans that are working at these companies and sometimes the incentives don't align with the customer, unfortunately. Rodney: It it it it'd be so dumb to risk and in that case, I don't know how much money these people are getting paid or whatever the case is. but they were close to high-level executives, so maybe they were getting paid a decent amount, but I think that that makes it worse when you're getting paid. And I I I guess when you're if you were making twenty, thirty, forty thousand. And then the CEO tells you to do this or the director tells you to do it. I I s I starting to see where you're coming from a a bit, because where you're at. But if you are in the six figure range, a hundred, two hundred, three hundred, four hundred, whatever, for me, I'm sitting there I'm sitting there because what I do is I put myself in in the shoes of this of these scenarios, right? And like as I said, I didn't use ethics as the thing that would stop me. That's not what I used. I didn't say I'm better than these people. I didn't I didn't Dre: Hm. Yeah. Rodney: say that. What I said was Y'all don't think we don't get caught? Like y'all don't think that. And then what's gonna happen? I'm going to lose my career and my freedom. On the back of the company? Nah. Like, there's somebody else that maybe will do this. And and then you have leverage too, because they come with you know I'll be taking a picture of that request. Hey, this take a picture. So that if I get fired because I didn't want to do it, I'm going right to the media. So Dre: Yeah. Rodney: so so I feel like you're I feel like that's probably better than at the same time though, going to the media is also always is not always the best because sometimes people, even if you're in the right, don't necessarily like employees that were speaking out about the previous employer. Dre: Yeah, no, they they don't like that. They don't like it. I don't know, man. Sometimes internal pressure is is something else. I don't understand Rodney: I guess so. Dre: it either. I don't understand it either. Well, I mean, I kinda do because I've worked at companies where there was some questionable tactics that were done in order to to achieve certain objectives. Rodney: Yeah. I have to, I have to. Dre: and I par and I participated in some things, not necessarily I mean to what degree, but in the moment of doing it, the way I perceived it. wasn't necessarily thinking about risk, right? 'Cause my thinking at the time was that, I'm doing this under the the the guise of the company, right? So my thing was that really the risk falls on the company, right? Like I I wasn't really perceiving it as my individual risk t to some degree, right? Like to to some degree. To some degree. Rodney: I see. I see what you mean though. I see what you mean though. Cause I see what you mean though, because I think that's what I see in people. I I think that when they do these things, I don't think that they're thinking, if something goes left, I might be personally held criminally responsible for X, Y, and Z. I don't think people are thinking that. I think people are thinking, yeah, just just not really thinking that much into how it doesn't matter where the order came from or who said it or why they said it. Your hands is on this. and so so I don't I I I don't blame people, but I would more but I would just say that unfortunately though, whether or not I blame you or not, if you do it and you get caught and they drill it down to the the developers or engineers and they see that, then I also don't feel bad for you either. So maybe I don't blame you, but at the same time, hey, look. Hey. Sometimes you gotta think twice about the shit you do. Sometimes you gotta think Hey. but yeah, maybe it's some nefarious stuff, but that's crazy. that's crazy. Either way, that's a win for New York and those drivers and people getting And and and and it's a loss for delivery companies 'cause they're already being looked at as so slimy and shady and Dre: Mm-hmm. Rodney: just doing stuff like this is just w cause why I do it. It is it's I get it. I I get it to some extent, but but it star it I guess it's the the why I do it is because the model doesn't work for humans. Dre: No, no, it doesn't. It's not it's not a good model. If I'm DoorDash, just just continue and I'm I already know they're thinking about it, right? It just continues to push us towards removing drivers out of the equation. Because it d drivers right now are creating a lot of problems for platforms like Doordash and for Uber, right? Rodney: Yes, exactly. Dre: Because these drivers want more money, they want more rights, they want more employment protections, Rodney: Yes. Yes. Dre: more benefits, more everything. Right. Rodney: Right. Dre: That yeah, that that doesn't that doesn't that doesn't work in this current world we're moving in. So yeah, I agree with you. It's good for the it's good for these drivers today, but if I'm Doordash, I know they gotta be thinking about how do we mitigate this risk going forward, even if it takes, you know, a decade to get there. That pursuit Rodney: And Dre: is worth it when you're going after such a large market and your dominant player like Doordash, they'll be around in ten years, they're not going nowhere. Rodney: So I I guess the truth is, and I'm seeing the pattern here, is that the systems in the future are definitely built are gonna be built off of the la the the the human labor. But they're gonna be running autonomously, automatically, and and nearly seamlessly in the future, but they're gonna be built off the backs of the people making the manual code but then also the people who are actually doing the work. And that's gonna be interesting because yeah, they at at the end of the day, I just imagined all the things I've seen, I've seen DoorDash do deals with Waymo, I've seen Doordash work on new drones, I've seen Doordash have these the work on the rolling robots. So Dre's a hundred percent correct where everything is They're they're clearly making tons of investments and they're looking at the humans as a a short term, high expensive cost that we won't have to do in the future because in the future it will just be an agent that does this, this, and that. And it's and it's almost like DoorDash will be a API. But but before we get off, I do wanna say. Muse did just announce while we were on the call a partnership with Walmart, Best Buy, Gap, Sephora, Wayfair, Expedia, and Instacart. So that does tell Dre: Amazing. Rodney: so that tells you that for Amazon, they're a technical, they're a tech company. So for them, they want to control the experience, full experience. They don't want to just be the infrastructure. These other companies that I just named, They're not all doing horrible, but in the world where they gotta compete against Amazon, they want to be the thing they wanna be the option that the agent uses to order your groceries, to order your furniture, to order your makeup, to order your electronics, to order your your your toilet paper and paper towels. They clearly they They clearly know that they need to stay competitive. And that is an interesting move. It's a pretty cool move, to be honest with you. Dre: Yeah, for sure. I'm not surprised by that. Walmart wants to move product. I mean that's they're they're Rodney: Yes. Dre: that's that they're in the business of of moving product, right? What the the time it comes into the warehouse, moving it out of the warehouse as quickly as possible is the business model of Walmart. So whatever that looks like, I'm I'm not surprised they lean into that. Similarly to other traditional retailers like I think I heard you mention Best Buy. I don't know if you said Target did you say Target? Is Target involved in too? Rodney: Yes. gap, gap. Gaps to four, yeah. Dre: Gap. Okay. Yeah. So no no different. They're they're in the business of move move moving merchandise. so yeah, I'm I'm excited to to to try those buying experiences through Muse. I'm gonna give it a try. Rodney: It's so smart. It's so smart. Cause Best Buy, I know they were struggling, so they th they definitely took that deal. They wanted to be Yeah. Yeah, Dre: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's the easy that's an easy one. Rodney: it could because now they don't have to become a tech company. They could just plug into a a tech monster and Dre: Yeah, 'cause nobody about to download Best Buy sh nobody want to talk to the Best Buy AI agent. Like, I don't want to talk to that shit. You know, if I need some headphones, I just want my fucking headphones in the next hour. Nah, Rodney: No. Yes. Nobody cares. Nobody cares. Nobody cares. Nobody goes to the Best Buy site. Dre: nah bro. I just want headphones in one hour. Get Period. Rodney: Yes. Dre: And if Best Buy can't fulfill it, cool. So it's a good that's a good lane for them to be in for sure. Rodney: And all right. Well I think I think we we we we we hit on all the topics. the one thing though next week that I think would be cool cool for us to talk about is is just where this whole future thing is unfolding. And it like that there's just multiple angles of this. There's autonomous delivery. autonomous transport so no drivers for either of those there is these autonomous agents that are doing digital work but then also they're doing other work that supports your life and essentially we're like the first thing that came to mind was twenty five percent of the way there I d would not want to I I I hope that we're we're we're further than that but We are going into this almost hands-free world. And that's different than the world prior, which is more about control. It's more about control. Okay, you buy the car but it doesn't drive itself. You you you have the steering wheel. You it it's it's just you go to the best like you go to the s the best buy. You don't have something order it for you and drop it off automatically. Like there's gonna be this like let go of control and I wonder how that's gonna play out and is it you know how bumpy is that road gonna be. Dre: Yep. I agree. Yeah, we can dive into that man. We'll catch y'all on the next one. This was a good one. Rodney: Yep, definitely.