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Disagree Without Disrespect · Equipped for Impact

• 0:00
  Luis: Have you ever watched a middle school student get punished socially by other kids because they disagreed with something?
• 0:10
  Nate: Absolutely.
• 0:12
  Nate: All the time.
• 0:13
  Nate: Honestly, it's more often than I'd like to think.
• 0:15
  Nate: You see it in the hallway, a kid says something, or maybe at the lunch table, and another kid speaks up calmly, totally normal tone, says, I don't think that's right.
• 0:26
  Nate: And the response isn't a counter-argument.
• 0:30
  Nate: It's just why are you always so mean?
• 0:33
  Nate: And I think that's because disagreement has become an offense.
• 0:37
  Nate: It really has.
• 0:38
  Nate: And I don't think it's just a kid problem.
• 0:41
  Nate: I think it's really a cultural problem that we've all been swimming in recently.
• 0:45
  Nate: And the kids are just the ones showing it back to us in a more honest way.
• 0:50
  Luis: Which is what I want us to get into today because we're getting ready to head into a stretch of the calendar where the election season is picking up, where every adult our kids know is about to model how to handle disagreement.
• 1:05
  Luis: And a lot of what we're going to see is arguments wearing this costume of conviction.
• 1:12
  Nate: And they're watching to see if we as adults are any different than the world around us.
• 1:26
  Nate: Welcome to Equipped for Impact, the podcast designed to assist Christian parents, leaders, and educators to raise up the next generation, to stand firm in their faith, and influence the world for Christ.
• 1:37
  Nate: We're your hosts.
• 1:38
  Nate: I'm Nate.
• 1:39
  Nate: And I'm Lewis.
• 1:40
  Nate: And we are glad you're here with us today.
• 1:43
  Nate: And I want to make sure we say this up front.
• 1:45
  Nate: So don't tune us out yet.
• 1:47
  Nate: Maybe actually slow it down to one speed, mostly because I sound really funny on one and a half speed.
• 1:52
  Nate: Half speed.
• 1:52
  Nate: Yeah, one just slow it down to half speed.
• 1:55
  Nate: Yeah.
• 1:55
  Nate: And then I talk like this.
• 2:00
  Nate: And if you slowed it down to half speed, that was really slow.
• 2:04
  Nate: But here's what we want to say, okay?
• 2:06
  Nate: This is not a political episode.
• 2:08
  Nate: All right.
• 2:09
  Nate: We're not telling anyone how to vote, who to vote for, or what to think about the ballot.
• 2:13
  Nate: None of that stuff is what we're talking about here.
• 2:15
  Luis: We're actually going to look at something that's underneath all of that.
• 2:19
  Luis: Whether our kids are learning how to hold a conviction and still love a person who doesn't share that same conviction.
• 2:27
  Luis: Because right now, the loudest voices in our culture are teaching them that those two things don't exist in the same room.
• 2:35
  Nate: And if we don't teach our kids otherwise, someone else will teach them that lesson for us.
• 2:42
  Nate: And honestly, those lessons are not delivered with the love and care we would really like.
• 2:48
  Nate: So let's let's talk about this.
• 2:49
  Nate: Let's name what's actually happening, right?
• 2:52
  Nate: Every platform these kids are on is about to flood with adults treating everyone who disagrees with them as a bad person, right?
• 3:01
  Nate: Not just wrong, not just disagreeing, but like actually you are a bad person because you disagree with my position.
• 3:10
  Luis: And our kids are going to absorb that posture long before they absorb the actual argument.
• 3:15
  Luis: Look, a 10-year-old has no idea what a policy debate is really about.
• 3:21
  Luis: But they understand exactly what it looks like when an adult rolls their eyes at someone else or mocks them or even cuts off a relationship because of a disagreement.
• 3:32
  Nate: And here's the part that's that's really convicting in all of this, right?
• 3:36
  Nate: A lot of that modeling isn't coming from a screen necessarily.
• 3:41
  Nate: Yeah.
• 3:41
  Nate: Right?
• 3:42
  Nate: It's coming from, you know, people around us in our social circles.
• 3:47
  Nate: It can be at the dinner table.
• 3:48
  Nate: It could be, you know, in a conversation with a neighbor out in the yard.
• 3:52
  Nate: It could be a coworker, an extended family member at, you know, a holiday where you're getting together, right?
• 3:59
  Nate: Yeah.
• 3:59
  Nate: We think the kids in the next room aren't listening, but the problem is they are.
• 4:04
  Luis: They're always listening.
• 4:05
  Luis: That's absolutely right.
• 4:06
  Luis: Every parent I know who's been caught off guard by something their teenager says can tell you that our kids are always listening.
• 4:14
  Luis: And they listen at the most inopportune times.
• 4:17
  Nate: And it's funny because when you're calling them, they don't hear you.
• 4:20
  Nate: They don't hear you.
• 4:21
  Nate: But when you're trying to have a conversation and you don't think that they're paying attention, they are tuned in.
• 4:28
  Nate: Oh my goodness.
• 4:29
  Luis: Last night we had a McDonald's cookie tote and some Dr.
• 4:33
  Luis: Peppers, and we were discussing some pretty like intense theological convictions around the table.
• 4:39
  Luis: Okay.
• 4:39
  Luis: And my 12-year-old daughter, who usually isn't a part of any of these conversations, we had to tell her multiple times, go take a shower.
• 4:46
  Luis: Like and she was all up in as well, I guess the young people don't say this, but she was all up in the gravy.
• 4:53
  Luis: All up in the gravy?
• 4:54
  Luis: Yeah, is it the Was it breakfast for dinner?
• 4:56
  Luis: It was not breakfast for dinner.
• 4:57
  Luis: Okay.
• 4:57
  Nate: No, no, no.
• 4:58
  Nate: Well, I have never, I honestly have never heard all up in the gravy.
• 5:02
  Nate: I don't know.
• 5:02
  Nate: Okay.
• 5:02
  Nate: We need to Google that.
• 5:03
  Nate: Uh but not right now.
• 5:05
  Nate: Okay.
• 5:05
  Nate: So here's the thing.
• 5:06
  Nate: You know, the real question isn't whether our kids will run into a disagreement, right?
• 5:10
  Nate: They're they're gonna run into a disagreement.
• 5:13
  Nate: It's gonna happen constantly.
• 5:15
  Nate: It's probably happening right now.
• 5:16
  Nate: It probably is because we're getting close to lunchtime at schools as we're recording this.
• 5:20
  Nate: And so you know there's a disagreement around the lunch table.
• 5:24
  Nate: So it's gonna happen.
• 5:25
  Nate: And so the question is whether we're giving our children a category for disagreeing with someone and still treating them like a person made in the image of God.
• 5:35
  Luis: Aaron Powell, Jr.
• 5:36
  Luis: Ooh, and that's really good, right?
• 5:37
  Luis: Because the model that most of them are watching right now is simpler than that, right?
• 5:42
  Luis: You pick a side, you defend that side, and you write off the other side entirely.
• 5:48
  Luis: And you attack their character, you attack their person, and it's not just about taking a position of disagreement, it's like it's us versus them.
• 5:57
  Nate: Yeah, and and honestly, like because we are at the edge of the political, you know, next election cycle, the midterm elections, as we're recording this.
• 6:07
  Nate: Maybe you're listening to this two years from now and we're coming up on like the next presidential election.
• 6:11
  Nate: I don't know.
• 6:12
  Nate: But here's the thing not only is this poor citizenship, right?
• 6:16
  Nate: Just as we're we're Americans, so as Americans, that's it's poor citizenship.
• 6:22
  Nate: But our citizenship as believers is also in heaven.
• 6:26
  Nate: And that's and that's poor heavenly citizenship as well.
• 6:31
  Nate: It's a discipleship failure, and it's one that we can actually do something about, and it starts in our own homes.
• 6:38
  Nate: So here's the question, Lewis like where do we go for this?
• 6:41
  Nate: Like, I don't think the Bible leaves us guessing on how to handle disagreement, right?
• 6:46
  Luis: And that's actually the beauty of hopefully you guys have been picking up on this in our latest podcast.
• 6:51
  Luis: We really try to make sure that we bring scripture into the conversation because I think that's really where we should turn because this isn't new for for God.
• 6:59
  Luis: This isn't new for people.
• 7:00
  Luis: Ephesians 4 15 is where I would start, right?
• 7:03
  Luis: Paul says that we're to speak the truth in love.
• 7:07
  Luis: Now, he doesn't say that you soften the truth until it's comfortable, and he doesn't say to deliver it without any regard for the person hearer, right?
• 7:17
  Luis: But but it's doing both at the same time every time.
• 7:21
  Luis: Like you have to be truthful and you have to deliver it in a way that still cares for the person and the relationship.
• 7:29
  Nate: Yeah, and that's really hard, right?
• 7:30
  Nate: Because our instinct usually is to pick one side or the other, right?
• 7:34
  Nate: Either we want to soften what we believe in the way we say it, right?
• 7:38
  Nate: Pull your punches, so to speak, so that, you know, I've I've really stopped saying anything at all.
• 7:44
  Nate: Or on the flip side, I want to say it so bluntly that I've stopped loving the person in front of me, and I just want to get my point across and win the argument.
• 7:54
  Luis: And then Peter gives us the practical version of what this looks like with the same tension in 1 Peter 3.15, right?
• 8:02
  Luis: He says that believers are to always be ready to give a reason for their hope, but to do it with gentleness and respect.
• 8:10
  Luis: Now here's the thing, right?
• 8:11
  Luis: He's not writing to people who are surrounded by people who agree with them.
• 8:15
  Luis: He's writing to people who are surrounded by people who think they're wrong and may actually want to kill them.
• 8:21
  Nate: Yeah.
• 8:21
  Nate: And I think that's really interesting.
• 8:23
  Nate: Like we we go to that verse, 1 Peter 3.15, and a lot of times we just rip that out of context, right?
• 8:31
  Nate: Always being ready.
• 8:32
  Nate: It's the classic apologetics verse and all that.
• 8:34
  Nate: When you read it in context, like you just said, it's it's people who wanted to kill them for what they believed.
• 8:41
  Nate: And it was you live in such a way that people are gonna take notice and ask you, and then you're ready to give them an answer.
• 8:49
  Nate: And when you do it, gentleness and respect, right?
• 8:53
  Nate: You you've you you know you're not convincing them of your position.
• 8:58
  Nate: You're just you're just gently telling them where you are, and you know, you recognize that they're they're not right right, right, in their in their position, and so you want to correct them.
• 9:08
  Nate: And so that's not that's not softness, and it takes more discipleship than just being saying, you know, what I think is right and saying it loudly, and if you're wrong, then you know you're a terrible person.
• 9:20
  Luis: And that's really good because right now sometimes we equate loudness with accuracy, right?
• 9:27
  Luis: The person who's louder, everybody's saying it, right?
• 9:30
  Luis: Then therefore it must be right.
• 9:32
  Luis: Now, James actually backs that same position up from a different angle, right?
• 9:37
  Luis: In James 119, he says to be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to become angry.
• 9:42
  Luis: And I think the order there is really important, right?
• 9:45
  Luis: Listening comes before speaking.
• 9:48
  Luis: And most of us run that in reverse, and then we wonder why every hard conversation turns into this standoff between two people, and it's because we aren't listening, we're just speaking.
• 10:02
  Luis: Like we're we're even thinking about what we want to say, so we're not even listening to what the other person's saying.
• 10:08
  Nate: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:09
  Nate: We t we tell our kids all the time, are you listening to understand or are you listening to respond?
• 10:14
  Nate: Oh, that's really and it there's a difference, right?
• 10:16
  Nate: You're just looking for a way to poke them.
• 10:18
  Nate: Yeah.
• 10:18
  Nate: And then in Colossians 4 6 kind of wraps this up.
• 10:21
  Nate: And and I actually just spoke on this in a Sunday school class that I teach is Colossians 4.
• 10:27
  Nate: In that Paul is praying or telling the Colossians, asking the Colossians, hey, pray for me so that I will have boldness to speak as I ought to speak.
• 10:36
  Nate: So think about that for a second.
• 10:38
  Nate: Like the Apostle Paul, who wrote like half the New Testament, is saying, pray that I've got boldness to speak up when I disagree with what's being said, right?
• 10:48
  Nate: And then he says to them, they should do the same thing.
• 10:51
  Nate: And what he tells them is that their speech should be full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that they know how to answer everyone, right?
• 10:59
  Nate: And you think of like salt, classic illustration is that it like it preserves, like think beef jerky, you know, it preserves meat, but it also adds flavor, right?
• 11:08
  Nate: If something is bland, it's just nasty and nobody wants it.
• 11:12
  Nate: But if it's got salt, it brings out that flavor and it makes somebody want more.
• 11:16
  Nate: And so our words are supposed to do the same thing, right?
• 11:20
  Nate: It has a good conversation going, not just to win it, but to to actually make someone want what we have because what we're sharing is the truth.
• 11:29
  Luis: And so the biblical instructions that we have isn't to avoid disagreement at all cost.
• 11:36
  Luis: Uh and it it's to disagree in a way that still allows us to look like Christ and for people to say there's something different about them when the conversation is over.
• 11:49
  Nate: Which means our kids need to actually watch us do that, right?
• 11:53
  Nate: Not just explain it to them in a little mini sermon at the dinner table.
• 11:56
  Nate: Absolutely.
• 11:57
  Nate: Right.
• 11:57
  Nate: So let's get practical.
• 11:58
  Nate: We like to have something practical here.
• 12:01
  Nate: We just ran through a bunch of different Bible verses, right?
• 12:03
  Nate: And that's that's good, but but what are you actually gonna do with this in a conversation or around the dinner table with your kids?
• 12:11
  Luis: Well, here's the first thing I would say is start narrating your own disagreements out loud in front of your kids.
• 12:17
  Luis: And when I'm I don't mean the heated ones, right?
• 12:19
  Luis: The just the small ordinary ones.
• 12:21
  Luis: If you and your spouse see a decision differently, let your kids watch you work through it respectfully instead of only seeing the outcome once it's settled.
• 12:30
  Luis: And maybe it's something small, maybe it's deciding like where you go on vacation, maybe it's like what you do over the weekend.
• 12:37
  Nate: So all of those you can re disagree and still love each other.
• 12:42
  Nate: Yeah.
• 12:43
  Nate: And and sometimes like those that you just mentioned, like they're not important.
• 12:47
  Luis: Yeah.
• 12:47
  Nate: At the end of the day, it's not a you're a terrible person because you want to go to the beach and I want to go to the mountains, right?
• 12:53
  Nate: It's just uh, we have different opinions, let's make a choice, right?
• 12:57
  Nate: And I think this matters more than people think because if most kids only see like the resolution.
• 13:04
  Nate: They never see that process as you go through and work out those disagreements.
• 13:08
  Nate: You know, you can if it's if it's not a moral issue, if it's not a biblical conviction, you know, you can give in, right?
• 13:16
  Nate: But if it's just if it's just a preference, right?
• 13:18
  Nate: So when they, you know, hit their own disagreements with a friend and they've not got a working model for how you get through one without the friendship ending, it's it's gonna be terrible for them.
• 13:28
  Luis: Yep, that's really good.
• 13:29
  Luis: And here's the second one, right?
• 13:30
  Luis: And this one I think takes some real intentionality on the part of us as the parents, right?
• 13:36
  Luis: Teach your kids to state the other person's position before they respond to it.
• 13:42
  Luis: So ask them before you tell them why you disagree.
• 13:47
  Luis: Tell me what they actually think in a way that they'd say yes, that's it.
• 13:53
  Luis: That's what I believe, right?
• 13:54
  Luis: So helping them restate the other person's argument.
• 13:58
  Nate: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 13:59
  Nate: You've heard of like straw manning or having a straw man argument.
• 14:02
  Nate: Yep.
• 14:02
  Nate: That's where you set up the other person's argument in kind of a false, flimsy way so that you can battle it down.
• 14:09
  Nate: That's the what you're talking about is the opposite of that, right?
• 14:12
  Nate: Some people call it steel manning.
• 14:13
  Nate: Yes.
• 14:14
  Nate: It's it's let me say your argument in the way you would agree with it, so that now I can respond to it in a in a genuine generous way.
• 14:22
  Nate: That's hard to say.
• 14:23
  Nate: Yes.
• 14:23
  Nate: In a generous way.
• 14:25
  Nate: You know, and and it actually m helps the kids, you know, it forces them to understand a view accurately instead of just reacting to like a caricature of it, right?
• 14:37
  Nate: Yeah.
• 14:37
  Nate: You know, half the time, once they understand it correctly, the whole conversation calms down and they're not fighting a version of the argument nobody actually holds.
• 14:46
  Nate: They're they're actually responding to what the other person wants.
• 14:50
  Nate: That's really good.
• 14:51
  Nate: And it I think it also de-escalates when, you know, if if it really isn't a big deal, it's like you're not blowing up over something that's a little issue because it's like, oh, I just responded and said they would rather have Chick-fil-A.
• 15:06
  Nate: They would rather have breakfast for dinner.
• 15:07
  Nate: Oh, yeah.
• 15:08
  Nate: You know?
• 15:08
  Nate: Yeah.
• 15:08
  Nate: So let's let's give a generous discussion here about that.
• 15:11
  Luis: So like an example of that would be is I hear that you like to eat eggs, bacon, and toast at a time that most people don't.
• 15:21
  Nate: At a time that is culturally not a traditional time to eat that.
• 15:26
  Nate: Yeah, yeah.
• 15:26
  Luis: And so then you then are like, yeah, that's that's my position.
• 15:30
  Luis: Yeah, that is my position.
• 15:31
  Luis: That is correct.
• 15:32
  Luis: Here's the next thing, right?
• 15:33
  Luis: Is give your kids clear language for the difference between disagreement and disrespect.
• 15:40
  Luis: Our culture is working hard right now to collapse the that distinction into one thing, right?
• 15:47
  Luis: You can tell someone, I think you're wrong about this, without ever being mean to them or telling them that they're worthless for thinking it, right?
• 15:57
  Luis: But our culture is really pushing that distinction that if I disagree with you, it's because I don't like you or there's something terrible about you.
• 16:06
  Nate: Yeah, and honestly, this has to start inside the home.
• 16:10
  Nate: Like if you've got more than one child, you know, there's gonna be disagreements between the children.
• 16:16
  Nate: If if you have a child, there will be disagreements between you and your child, right?
• 16:21
  Nate: It it happens.
• 16:22
  Nate: And so if your kid gets shut down or mocked or ignored, whatever, because they push back on something or they hold a different opinion, you know, they're gonna learn, or they're not gonna learn how to disagree well anywhere else.
• 16:36
  Nate: Yeah.
• 16:36
  Nate: They think that that's just what you do.
• 16:38
  Nate: You shut people down and then you win, and then you can move on.
• 16:41
  Nate: And so the home is the training ground for that, yeah.
• 16:43
  Nate: Whether whether we like it or not, that's the way it is.
• 16:46
  Luis: And we just wrapped up a whole series on having those conversations with your kids, right?
• 16:50
  Luis: Yep.
• 16:50
  Luis: We even said that sometimes when your teenager pushes back on something, that instead of just shutting it down to keep the order, you actually engage with it.
• 17:01
  Luis: And that actually helps them not because they're right every time, or because you're gonna give in to what they're saying, but it shows them what respectful disagreement looks like from the inside in real time with someone they trust.
• 17:19
  Nate: Yeah, and honestly, that that can be really uncomfortable for a parent to kind of work through that process.
• 17:25
  Nate: Yeah.
• 17:26
  Luis: And and it should be a little uncomfortable, right?
• 17:28
  Luis: And that's usually a sign that something is being formed, that something is being stretched, something is being grown.
• 17:35
  Nate: Yeah.
• 17:35
  Nate: So so let's let's also talk about this side of it because some parents are gonna hear this episode and land on this idea that, okay, so the goal is just to keep the peace, don't rock the boat, avoid the hard topics altogether.
• 17:48
  Nate: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 17:48
  Luis: And that's gonna be a different episode entirely.
• 17:50
  Luis: Like we may have to tackle that one separately, but it's worth being clear about the difference between what we're saying and this idea of we don't ever like just rock the boat.
• 18:00
  Nate: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:00
  Nate: Because a family that never disagrees out loud isn't necessarily a healthy family, right?
• 18:06
  Nate: Because they're just harboring those disagreements internally to avoid conflict.
• 18:13
  Nate: And kids grow up either terrified that any tension or completely, you know, is is terrible, yeah, or they're completely unequipped to handle it once it comes when they leave the house.
• 18:23
  Nate: Or or honestly, before they leave the house when they're sitting in the middle school lunchroom, which is a place I hang out a lot.
• 18:30
  Luis: And actually, there's probably somebody listening to this podcast right now.
• 18:33
  Nate: In a middle school lunch room?
• 18:34
  Nate: Not hopefully not.
• 18:35
  Luis: Hopefully not, because they shouldn't have their phones with them.
• 18:37
  Luis: I will come find your AirPods and take them.
• 18:39
  Luis: But there's somebody listening to this, and your parents got divorced, and you might be thinking, I never saw my mom and dad argue.
• 18:47
  Luis: Like we never saw them disagree, and then one day they just come out of the bedroom and they're like, Hey, we aren't gonna stay married.
• 18:56
  Luis: And it's because all of these arguments, all of these disagreements happen behind closed doors, and some of them should.
• 19:03
  Nate: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:04
  Nate: We don't need to air, we're not saying air your business in front of your kids.
• 19:07
  Luis: No.
• 19:07
  Luis: But Jesus himself disagreed with people constantly, right?
• 19:11
  Luis: Like he confronted the Pharisees openly and directly.
• 19:15
  Luis: He corrected his own disciples more than once.
• 19:17
  Luis: Those are some of my favorite parts of the gospels, right?
• 19:20
  Luis: OU of little faith.
• 19:21
  Luis: Yes, right.
• 19:22
  Luis: He had pointed, hard conversations, but what set him apart was never the absence of disagreement.
• 19:29
  Luis: It was how he carried himself inside of it every single time.
• 19:34
  Nate: Yeah, so your your kid, if they never once see you disagree with anyone about anything, you haven't modeled this skill we're talking about today, right?
• 19:42
  Nate: You've modeled avoidance or internalization, and that leaves them unprepared for the world they're gonna walk into.
• 19:49
  Nate: They just may be quieter, they may fly under the radar, whatever it is, but but but you've not set them up for success.
• 19:57
  Nate: And that's what we're all about here.
• 19:59
  Luis: Aaron Powell Yeah.
• 19:59
  Luis: The goal is actually making sure that our kid, right, can can say what they agree, right?
• 20:06
  Luis: But they can also see differently than you do, but then they can sit down and eat lunch at the middle school table with the person they disagree with, and an hour later they're still getting along.
• 20:19
  Nate: Yeah, and that honestly is the whole aim right there.
• 20:22
  Nate: That's what we're going for is you can disagree and and still love one another.
• 20:28
  Nate: Okay?
• 20:28
  Nate: So let's let's kind of wrap this up here, Lewis.
• 20:32
  Nate: You know, a parent listening to this and and they've got a kid, you know, who who they're trying to teach them how to disagree or that anything there.
• 20:41
  Nate: What what encouragement would you give the parents listen today?
• 20:44
  Luis: Look, you probably are gonna have a kid who at some point in their life, maybe this week, maybe this month, they're gonna get called mean for saying something that is true, right?
• 20:56
  Luis: And our natural posture is to rush in, to try this, to try to smooth it over, to apologize for them, right?
• 21:04
  Luis: Don't do that.
• 21:04
  Luis: Sit with them, ask them how they said it, help them sharpen it if it needs sharpening, and then tell them that you're proud of them for having the courage to say something true out loud.
• 21:17
  Luis: That's not a problem that we're trying to fix.
• 21:20
  Luis: That's a kid becoming exactly who we've been praying that they would become.
• 21:25
  Nate: That's exactly right.
• 21:26
  Nate: So thank you all for joining us today on this episode of Equipped for Impact.
• 21:31
  Nate: If you found this episode was helpful, um please, please share it with another parent who could use this resource as well.
• 21:37
  Nate: And don't forget to subscribe as so you don't miss our next episode.
• 21:43
  Nate: And until then, keep leading the next generation to stand firm in their faith and influence the world for Christ.