Latest / Real STRength with Sarah Draper / Self-Empathy And The Empathic Leader With Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller | #19
Transcript
- speaker-0: Because we can't really do for anybody else if we can't do for ourselves. Empathy gets this rap for being all about feelings. I feel what you feel. But that's not what it is. Empathy and judgment cannot exist in the same space ever. And it doesn't matter if it's empathy or self-empathy. You you really can't break a habit, you have to replace it. speaker-1: Welcome to the Future Walk Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Draper. Each week on the podcast, I explore tools to help you lead your best now and into the future, and I talk with top leaders to see how they stay focused when life gets cluttered. It's time to stop reacting to your life and start leading it. Welcome to Future Walk. Welcome to the Future Walk Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Draper, and I'm so glad you're here. Today I'm joined by Dr. Melissa Robinson Weinmiller. She's a TEDx speaker, a leadership coach, and an author who's changing the way we think about empathy, emotional intelligence, and the role of humanity in leadership. She has spoken at Oxford, Cambridge, and Columbia, and her work has been featured in dozens of publications and podcasts. She's best known for her TEDx talk, Shattering Shame with Self-Empathy, her podcast and YouTube channel, The Empathic Leader, and her number one best-selling book of the same name. Melissa's developed the 5R Reset, which is a framework for building self empathy that's helped thousands of leaders stop judging themselves and start leading with clarity and compassion. And she argues that empathy isn't a soft skill, it's a critical skill. And she's proven that it's not just about feelings, it's a tool that drives innovation, productivity, and profit. I'm excited to explore her story, the five-hour reset, and why self-empathy is the foundation for everything else. Melissa, welcome to the podcast. speaker-0: ⁓ Sarah, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Especially since we talk about a lot of the same things. So this is going to be a good conversation. ⁓ speaker-1: It sure is. I agree. I mean, there's so many great connection points between between our work and between, I think, some of our like philosophy about taking care of yourself, right? How important, how necessary, how absolutely critical that is for leaders to do first. And how deserving we are as human beings of that same thing. speaker-0: Yes, because we can't really do for anybody else if we can't do for ourselves. If you're I mean it's that whole pouring from an empty cup. I know it's cliche, but it's true. speaker-1: I know, it's absolutely that that one and the oxygen mass and just so many other things that really resonate with us and we we kind of nod along when we hear them. Yet for some reason that self-care ends up taking that back burner. I wonder why that is. speaker-0: Don't know. I don't know. I mean, especially when you're dealing with empathy and compassion, I think those are the kind of people that want to do for others that you know have that that desire to connect. And unfortunately, sometimes that takes over the need to take care of ourselves for you've got to connect with yourself first. Yeah. You know, charity begins at home. speaker-1: ⁓ beautiful. I I love that. thank you. Yeah, charity does begin at home in you and then then extends out from there. So well, I I really, really got a lot out at many different levels from your TEDx talk. And ⁓ in it you you share a really significant story about something that's happened in your life and how you got to where you are now and and what you're doing now. Would you Would you be willing to share that with us? speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. ⁓ so I was a professional musician. ⁓ that's what I did. I played French horn, I got to travel. I mean, my dad was enlisted military and my mom was a housewife. So the fact that I had the opportunities to travel and to play with people like Ray Charles and Mannheim Steamroller and Manhattan Transfer and like, you know, going solo in Italy, these aren't opportunities I would have had otherwise. So, you know, music really opened a whole world to me that I had no idea about. You know, but but being a performing musician, especially on French horn, you know, a classical musician isn't always very stable. And I like food shelter and clothing. I think they're great. You know, so I did go and get my sex my first doctorate and I went to teach to be a professor of French horn. But unfortunately, within my very first term there, I was assaulted by one of my colleagues. ⁓ Which was bad enough, but then it got worse because of the leadership that was there. They didn't want to know, they didn't want to hear about it, they really didn't care. ⁓ I ended up being kind of a scapegoat for a lot of things. When I went to the head of my department, I was told that if I was stirring up trouble as a junior female faculty member right away, that I might as well kiss promotion goodbye, which I I hadn't even been there a whole semester. I really didn't care about promotion. And then when I went to his boss, I was told if I didn't like it, I could just leave. Which how many French horn professorships are there? It's not like, you know, that that option was there. And so it it actually over the next I actually stuck it out for six years. And by the end of that, my career was just destroyed. It was just done. So I came ⁓ towards the Midwest and ⁓ then COVID hit and the arts really took a big hit. And that was kind of the end of that. So at that point I was doing some consulting with my husband and we were going into these healthcare, smaller healthcare things, ⁓ pain clinics, surgery centers, that kind of thing. And we would revamp them kind of from the bottom up, whether it was supply chain or medical stuff, or I tend to take care of HR and data analytics and that kind of thing. But I kept seeing the same problems with the leadership over and over and over again, with an inability to connect with others that a lot of times seem to go hand in hand with an inability to connect with themselves. And so I was like, okay, what is this? This is a pattern. This keeps coming up. This seems to be something in human nature. What is it? So I was like, all right, I'm gonna go back to what I know. And I started my second doctorate in interdisciplinary leadership. And I'm almost finished with it now. I'm hoping it's gonna be done in August. But my dissertation focus is empathy and leadership because I feel that strongly about it. That not only is this something that we're missing societally. But also in leadership and especially with the advent of AI that has no empathy or emotional intelligence or feelings, that this is something we really need to get right. speaker-1: Wow, thank you. Why first of all, congratulations on that. ⁓ your second doctorate that you're about to have completed. And empathy could can you say that again? Empathy in leadership is the overarching, but what's it what's the title of it again? speaker-0: ⁓ well the doctoral program is an interdisciplinary leadership. So it's not like healthcare leadership or nonprofit leadership or it's it's all of So yeah. speaker-1: And that's that well, what you recognize is right, that common pattern you were seeing that when leaders the inability to connect with others was often ⁓ often ⁓ you know, they saw the same leaders with that same inability to connect to themselves. speaker-0: Yes. Yeah. More often than not, you know. Not always, but more often than not, you know, there was there were they were missing that piece to be able to connect with themselves first and foremost. So if you don't know how to do it for yourself, how are you ever going to figure out how to do it for anybody else? speaker-1: Right, right. So why is that important? I mean, why does a leader need to be able to connect with others? We're gonna get to themselves, but like what what is the bottom line of that? speaker-0: Well, so empathy, I'll just I'll just go right down the tunnel here. So empathy gets this rap for being all about feelings. I feel what you feel, but that's not what it is. There's actually like 43 different definitions of empathy. And I feel what you feel is one, that's one way to do it. But really what perspective what empathy is about is taking the perspective of the other person. And sometimes there's no feelings involved. You can use what's called cognitive empathy, which is I logically understand what you're feeling, your situation, what you're thinking, but I don't feel anything. And a part of this as well is self-empathy, actually understanding your perspective in that why am I doing the things I'm doing? Why am I repeating these same patterns that are unhealthy? Why am I continuing to take on these leadership things that aren't working for either me or my people? So it's it's really all about that perspective taking. And that's the piece that people miss. speaker-1: perspective taking. I love it. I'm thinking what I took a a course some time ago. It was a great course. It was on essentially conflict resolution. It was part of a business like communication certificate. And I think it was, I believe it was in that course, we learned this idea of empathy light. And so as you're talking about this, it was, you know, it was a it was a much more broad framing. And I don't remember if it came from the book difficult conversations. Something the professor had kind of developed himself. But under that very high, you know, not 43 types, but like just big empathy. And then, but sometimes you can't quite get there because you can't quite feel what another person's feeling, or you can't quite imagine even what that other person's going through. But the idea is like empathy light is you can still recognize as a human being that. there's something there for them. Something might be difficult. You still, and that sounds more like the cognitive side. Is is that is that what the cognitive side is? You recognize you may not feel it yourself, but you can at least appreciate something in someone else. speaker-0: Absolutely. And in fact, I talk to leaders about, you know, using the cognitive empathy. Because if you if you're taking on everybody's feelings and everybody's emotions and everybody's baggage, that's how you end up with empathy fatigue. And that's a problem because we have so much burnout in leadership as it is. We don't need another reason to burn them out. You know. And the other thing is is is with empathy, you don't have to actually understand the situation. You just have to understand the outcome. You know, I know what it is to feel sad. I know what it is to grieve. I know what it is to understand, you know, I'm scared because I don't know if I'm gonna make rent at the end of the week. So that may not be the exact situation that the other person is going through, but I understand the result. So, you know, you don't necessarily have to connect on a granular level to be able to connect. I like that they call it empathy light because that's kind of it's a high level kind of thing. And if you're a leader and you're dealing with hundreds of people, that's kind of what you have to rely on. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I and and ⁓ I I think I I used to use it when I would I taught at ⁓ a program the FBI runs for law enforcement leaders from around the globe. And I taught leaders like wellness for leaders and and one of our blocks was on conflict and and and it includes difficult conversations, it includes empathy, and I would use it as that framing because I think it really like would help people understand, ⁓ because I do believe there's a misunderstanding. of empathy. Even beyond what you talked about, that it's ⁓ just emotional or air quote soft, ⁓ that it's that you know you have to actually feel what someone else is feeling. And if you can't feel that then how am I supposed to ever be empathetic? But there's this other level of just again that appreciation for what someone is going through or the as you said, the result, the outcome. speaker-0: Absolutely. And in fact, I would I would actually say it's the best place to start because like I said, if you're taking on all sorts of emotional baggage, sometimes it's hard to see clearly. You know, and if I'm if I have a leader, I want someone who's going to be able to lead and see clearly. I don't want someone who's going to end up so caught up in whatever it is that that they're going to go to pieces, you know. speaker-1: Yes, absolutely. I know, absolutely. You still need someone who can have that clarity, who can have that ability ⁓ to make those decisions and and and drive forward and all those other things. So This comes to mind, brings to mind for me compassion. Now, you've said empathy leads to compassion. And and I wanna get to that because for me, the reason compassion comes up is be when I was also back in the FBI, I was part of an employee assistance program and one thing like in the caregiving role ⁓ or in a in a role of like a peer, right? We talk about compassion fatigue. So similar to empathy fatigue, I believe. And you you have to guard against that and take care of yourself. Back to that thing, you got to take care of yourself first. Here we are. Right now. Like you got to take care of yourself and make sure, make sure you're doing that so you can continue to serve eit others. And so speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: But all right, so how does empathy lead to compassion? I mean, that's a bridge you you explained or drew out in the TEDx talk. speaker-0: You Yeah. So that's this is actually a fantastic question because people they just kind of put empathy, sympathy, and compassion in this huge ball. But there's three different things that do three different things. So, you know, if if you don't really understand how it works, it's easy to get them mixed up. So empathy, even though I talk about, you know, making it actionable and doing stuff with it, it really at its base, empathy is completely passive. You are taking the other person's point of view. You are looking at their perspective. But you're not doing anything. You know, there's there's no action involved at all. Compassion is the action. Compassion is what you do with that empathy. And I think it's really important that you have to have empathy first. Otherwise, you could end up with misguided compassion, which can be just as destructive, if not more so. You know, I mean you think about well, one example is like in the eighties and nineties, right? How as a country, we were giving tons of money and and supplies and resources to Africa because of the starving and the stuff that was going on there, right? Very compassionate. We were taking action, but we didn't have the empathy to take their perspective first, which is why a lot of those resources ended up going to dictators or never actually made it to the people. We were taking the action. We were doing great things, but we hadn't taken the perspective first. So we ended up with a misguided compassion, which didn't have the impact it could have. speaker-1: Holy yeah, fascinating. I see this play out all the time. I mean you could get to what happens when people are online or they hear what inside or you read a news article that maybe you just pull out the things. Maybe it is a very fair and balance, but you just pull out the things that already resonate with maybe your existing belief system or or whatnot. I see that play out quite a bit. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And we don't even realize we're doing it because we don't necessarily realize the difference. But there is a difference between empathy and compassion. So empathy is when you take the other person's perspective through their eyes. So you're trying to understand their situation through their experience. Sympathy is when you look at their experience through your own eyes, which means you're bringing along your baggage. speaker-1: Okay, and what's sympathy then? speaker-0: You're bringing along your opinions and you you probably don't even mean to do it. We don't we don't mean to do it, but humans are biased. We just are. That's psychologically, it happens and we don't even know it. So unfortunately, what happens is you end up comparing your situation to their situation. And as soon as you have two, and that comparison is there, you have judgment. This is better than that. This is worse than that. And empathy and judgment cannot exist in the same space ever. And it doesn't matter if it's empathy or self-empathy. They just can't. So that's why a lot of healthcare professionals are actually trained not to use sympathy. Because there is that negative pity judgmental kind of thing. Better you than me, whatever. You know, because if you're with a patient and they're there on what's potentially the worst day of their life, the last thing they want is someone coming at them with pity and judgment, even if it's with the best of intentions. speaker-1: Right. Is there a place for sympathy then? speaker-0: You know, I don't think there's any place for sympathy that empathy wouldn't do better. speaker-1: ⁓ like it that's good. So with empathy, no judgment. Not coexist. speaker-0: No, you can't nope. If you're feeling judgment, that's a big cue that you're not feeling empathy. speaker-1: So let's talk about self-emphy then. Because that seems to be that is where this is going. Self-empathy cannot exist with self-judgment. speaker-0: Nope. Nope. And that's how you know. If if you're trying to work towards so there's four steps to self-empathy. Okay. So if you're working towards, you know, trying to get self-empathy and you feel this judgment, that's automatically how you know you're not going there. The ⁓ how could I have been so stupid? Gee, I'm such a bonehead. I should have known better. Well, so and so did it, and and you know, I'm going to be judgy about their actions or their thoughts at this point. So four steps. First one, self-observation. You need to step back and you need to pay attention to whatever the situation is. But your goal is to be critical, not caring, which means that I want you to approach it like a computer. I'm looking for patterns. I'm looking for data. I'm looking for, you know, big overarching themes, but I'm not attaching emotion. When you're working on a spreadsheet on your computer, it does not attach emotion. It does not care how badly you've got your checkbook messed up. You know, it's it's just this is the data, this is what I'm looking for, I'm trying to understand. That's it. speaker-1: I ⁓ can I pause there and talk more about self-observation before we get to step two? Okay, that's really tough. That critical ⁓ piece of of not caring. And I I'm just thinking my own kind of growth journey, I've been doing mindfulness meditation for I don't even know how many years now, probably eight now and speaker-0: Sure. speaker-1: That's been a huge piece for me, like in the process of meditating, like non-judgmental, just awareness, taking the step back. I mean, there are these themes that that these these words ⁓ of that process, yeah, and and I've gotten a lot better, but I still do find those moments where ⁓ yeah, I'm critical. Right. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. speaker-1: I mean I'm cr in in an un in a unhealthy way, right? In a self s you know, in that self-observational thing. I'm not critical like that neutral computer. I'm more like invested and it's you know, it's hard in the moment. Just I don't know what your what your strategies are to to train that. speaker-0: Well, I mean, first of all, you're getting better at it because you're practicing it. And that's the first step is, you know, just expecting it to happen is not going to happen. You you've you have to actually practice it. The second thing I've actually found is to write it down. Look for the words, you know, because you'll put things in writing without thinking that maybe you won't even notice. And I mean, if you want to be super tech about it, throw it into AI. Hey AI. Which words in here are are showing emotion? Which words are maybe saying I'm being more critical than I should be? What are you picking up? I mean, I think it would be better if you show it to another human. speaker-1: Way has no compassion. speaker-0: Right. A AI has no anything. So if you're neutral. Right. Right. So it is going to be critical not caring, you know, which is kind of what you want. Tell me what you're seeing in here. Because it might give you insights that maybe you hadn't noticed before. Yeah. You know, but again, to practice and don't get frustrated because that means you're being judgmental. Why am I not picking this up? No, this is it's practice. Practice makes permanent. Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent. Just do it. You know? Yep. The journey. speaker-1: Right. In the worlds I came from, it was ⁓ practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. And then ⁓ gosh, here we are. No wonder try to undo all this. Okay, so self-observation number one. Number two speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ Number two is self-reflection. How you turn the lens inward and you reflect on whatever information you've got, still trying to be critical, not caring as much as you as much as you can. Because it is hard. It's not it's not a one and done kind of thing. But you know, reflect on it. Okay, you know, my kid came home and I just screamed at him. And I don't really know why I did that. They really didn't have it coming. They left their shoes in the floor, but that wasn't worth what happened. speaker-1: So speaker-0: So what happened? What happened before that that brought that on? What is it that triggered me? What what really is it that's happening? You know, and and and you have to actually think about it. It's it's what I with my clients I actually call micro meditations. I'm like, take 10 seconds after that meeting. You're walking from that meeting to your office. You know, take that time and actually think about it. Yeah, I really did yell at Bob. Why did I yell at Bob? Did I yell at Bob because I had a fight with my wife this morning? Did I yell at Bob because he reminds me of my brother and I just wanted to punch him? Did I yell at Bob because we got into it last week and I'm still not over it? What is what really happened? You know? speaker-1: Okay, so self-reflection ⁓ also calls to mind the acronym HALT. Another thing that could be am I hungry, angry, lonely, or tired, right? And it could be other things, but it could also be something physical, that physiological, I guess, that's going on or social as well. You know, that you know, we had a fight with my wife this morning or whatever, and that led over. Okay, so so great. So self-reflection. Perfect. So we got self-observation, self-reflection. What is number three? speaker-0: So now we're into self-awareness. Okay. Which means now you are turning the lens outward and you're seeing what ripples you've created in the world because of this action. You know, well, gee, yeah, I screamed at Bob in the meeting, and now none of my team will talk to me. Nobody wants to discuss anything, and everybody's walking on eggshells. Yeah, I screamed at my kid, so they yelled back, slammed the door and left. And now I don't know where they are. I'm sure they'll be back, but You know, so so what are the ripples that you have sent out into the world with this? Because you may have to do a little bit of triage, you know. Cause then the fourth step is self-compassion. So there's the action, you know. Okay, yeah, I did blow up in that meeting. I shouldn't have blown up at that meeting. Yeah. But you know what? I'm a fairly new leader. I was a fantastic technician. I'm still learning how to be a leader and I am not going to beat myself up about this, but I am going to learn. And I'm probably also going to apologize to Bob. And I'm probably also going to go talk to my team and just say, look, doing the best I can. I know I maybe didn't handle this in the best way, but let's let's see what we can do moving forward. speaker-1: These four steps, self-observation, that just critical awareness, as neutral as possible, self-reflection, right? That's when you start thinking self-awareness, those ripples you've created outside, and then the self-compassion, right? So that compassion has to start with you. That self-compassion leads to those steps, those steps for reparation, those steps for understanding, those steps for change. speaker-0: Yes. Yep. Absolutely. Next thing please. speaker-1: Do and and in this order. Where do most people jump in this cycle? Do they? When something happens, they scream at Bob. Do they hop in here anywhere? ⁓ or what what happens for the majority of us? speaker-0: Yeah. You know, a lot of us immediately jump to the action. We jump to the compassion, but we haven't actually taken the steps before to understand what happened and why. So we have no idea what compassion to actually use. You know, which is why you end up with, well, let's all have a pizza party. Compassionate action, probably the best of intentions, can land really flat if your entire office is mad because you yelled at Bob. Right? That kind of thing. We have to do all four steps. speaker-1: Right. This is really impactful on a cultural level, like setting the weather, setting the climate in your organization, whatever that organization in your home, whatever, whatever that is. ⁓ this piece, because I've seen it, I've read it, I've heard it, I've experienced it, I'm sure I've done it time and again, right? The the band-aid fix, the thing, like you the pizza party, or ⁓ you know, trying to to change something where that underlying cause of whatever that c if if it's a culture that's not serving the the organization or that outfit well, right? That underlying cause is never even surfaced or certainly not addressed then if it's not surfaced. speaker-0: Yes. Yep. And if you haven't reflected on it, then you run the risk of doing it again. And again. Yes. speaker-1: And again. We'll see. And then that's how it gets embedded. Because like, well, it worked well enough. And that person's a leader. So I guess I'm a leader. This is how I behave. And then it's just like this subconscious, just continuing a repetition of how things get embedded. Culture. So how do you speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. speaker-1: How do you do this with leaders? When you're out there, you're working with a group, you're working with a group of leaders or a team of leaders. Like what's a good way for people to recognize how they can employ this in their own life and remember to do so? speaker-0: So you really have to take the time to sit down. I mean, I talk about the micromeditations as far as you can grab bits and pieces of it, but you really have to think about it. And it doesn't have to take hours. I mean, it's not navel gazing, but you do need to sit down and and kind of debrief yourself. You know, this happened today. Well, what was what's the observation here? You know, what is the self-reflection? Where do I go from here? Because the cool part is once you get those four steps and you can do it for yourself. It's the same four steps for empathy. You observe, reflect on what you're seeing, be aware of what the ripples are going out to the world, and then enact compassion if it's needed. Compassion isn't always needed. Sometimes no action is necessary. But if it is needed, that's where it goes. So once you can learn how to do it for yourself, you can start to bring it out for others. speaker-1: That's great. I ⁓ I'm gonna want, I gotta ask. Yeah, do you journal? A lot of us in there. Do you journal? Do you recommend people journal? This has come up in this podcast quite a bit already, the idea of journaling. I've started to do it in conjunction with feature walking because of its impact. ⁓ but is this something like you recommend people do every night, only when there's an issue? How do you how do you action journaling for this? speaker-0: I recommend it as a daily thing. One of those things you do, you know, either probably in the evening, because once you start thinking back, once you get better at it, you're gonna start to see more situations. You're gonna start to recognize, you know, in not bothering to get a cup of coffee before I went to that meeting. That was not giving any kind of self-empathy all. And then I went to that meeting, I fell asleep, I missed half of what happened. You know, why didn't I get that cup of coffee? Well, because I felt I needed to go take care of this report first. But were you actually using self-empathy? And in the end, how did that play out? Is this the results that you would have wanted? You know? So I I'm a you have to get your feedback one way or the other. Journaling is a good way to do it if you don't have someone to talk to. If you have someone that you can actually that will give you a straight answer. I mean, this can't be someone that's just going to tell you, yeah, boss, you're great. You know, it's got to be someone who will who will actually give you the straight answer. ⁓ that's even better. And in fact, I noticed with one of your future walks, it's you do with a friend. That would be a perfect place to employ something like that if you both were talking about, you know, these four steps and how they would work and be able to dissect some of this. 'Cause someone on the outside is going to see things that you're not going to notice on the inside or you know, you're just your point of view is different. Or you're so used to doing it, you don't pay attention anymore. So one way or the other, either a person needs to give feedback or journaling is a good one. And and I would say again, that's a good place for AI as long as as long as you're giving it the right cues. speaker-1: giving it the right cues and being really intentional about it. Yeah, I love that as a practice. I mean we talked about future walking with someone else about something you're working towards and in, but you have to understand what's happening first. Journaling, I I could see journaling working a couple different directions too. I could I could see for me, I'm thinking like, ⁓ I could write about the incident, whatever it is that stands out to me, and then work my way backwards. Like try to follow that thread backwards. Or could start with something just during the day or whatever, and then try to follow the ripples out to all the other things that might have impacted. And and I sometimes I'll talk about like micro stresses, right? These micro stresses. It's just these little things that if we're unaware and or unchecked, create this, can create a negative cascade, like a Jenga game. Little pieces get pulled out, but they don't just impact you. That's the ripples. part of it ⁓ is it can negatively impact others as well without even being aware. So I I could see like for me journaling either direction would would help me get to some awareness. speaker-0: Yeah. Well, and I actually suggest that they journal it's cut it's journaling backwards and forwards. So you're journaling forwards in that you might, you know, today you might be like, ⁓ boy, this happened. And you write down what happened and maybe you start to reflect on it, but you don't even see the ripples right away. This might be something that you're adding in ripples and and doing the compassion step for some time. But you can also journal backwards in that, ⁓ look, here's Bob again. ⁓ look, I yelled at Bob here too. Well look at this two years ago, Bob and I. What okay, there's something bigger and deeper here. What am I missing? So you're actually able to go up and down the timeline instead of just being stuck in this moment, which sometimes we do, you know. ⁓ this happened. This is awful. I hate this. I hate that I did this again. This is you know, and you never quite see all of the repercussions so that you can add that compassion step. speaker-1: Yeah, and I could see this being really happy for helpful, excuse me, for habit change as well. But you've got another really good framework for that, the five iresa. I love this one. Can we can we talk about that one a bit too? And habits, right? I you wanna explain, you know, kind of through the the five what they are. speaker-0: Sure. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm gonna be honest. Let's let's do one at a time. So ⁓ because I've been working on other frameworks that are within my methodology. So you name it and let's talk about it. speaker-1: I've got it. Okay. So the first was recognizing your habits, including the one of self-judgment. speaker-0: Yes. So there's there's that observation, you know, actually seeing what's going on. And like for me with the with the self-empathy thing, it was self-judgment. I was judging what had happened with that assault and I was judging that I had done something to cause it. Right. And that was that was really hard. But I didn't recognize it right away because these mental scripts had just gotten so ingrained after being in that place for six years that I I didn't even realize it. So, you know, being able to recognize what was actually going on was huge. speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ did you recognize that once you were away from it, or did you start to recognize it when you were in the still there? speaker-0: I knew stuff wasn't right there because I I started drinking very heavily. I started doing things to numb myself. Yeah. ⁓ and alcohol and food were for me, those are those are big triggers. So I knew there was a symptom that something was wrong. But it really took me being out of it to be able to get a bird's eye view and say, ⁓ this is this is why I'm doing this. This is where this behavior is coming from. speaker-1: Uh-huh. Yeah, that's stepping away from something, whether it's like, I mean, you moved, right? It was a full life change. You, you, you moved and only with that full removal with something so traumatic and intense and long lasting, ⁓ that a full removal can it might might be what what someone needs. Other times just stepping away, getting your lifting for someone who's in an office all day. I mean nothing nearly of that significance and import but like just working hard all day, still have a cloudy vision. You lose clarity, you start to drift over time. even just stepping aside. That's one of the reasons I I believe so much, because it's how helped me so much the future walk is just even that stepping aside just on a regular daily basis can help provide some of that clarity. But okay. So that was your first one, right? Recognize the habits, including that habit of self-judgment. Pretty good at self-judgment. That's a pretty good habit for me. Yeah. Why don't you keep going through? So number two is you redefine it, right? You have grace for yourself, the same grace for yourself you'd have for someone else. speaker-0: Yeah. Yes, yes. Because chances are whatever habit you've put in place is there to protect you. You put it there for a reason. So you need to redefine what it is because it's it's probably not negative. And that takes away the judgment. You know, you can't like for me, I was drinking a lot because I I was trying to numb myself. I was trying to just get out of the situation. But rather than being mad at myself for for what I was doing. I could redefine that really what I was doing was trying to protect myself, trying to take my brain out of what was going on long enough to stay sane because what was going on mentally was really hard. And there were times that I just felt like I was breaking and I d I just I didn't know what to do. So, you know, by redefining that really what I was doing was trying to take care of myself. I the it didn't work, but It wasn't a mean evil thing. It was that I really did have the best of intentions. It just didn't work out. speaker-1: You're protecting yourself because you were in an environment where others weren't doing that. Right. And so yeah. Okay. So having that grace for yourself and then replacing your habits, right? You can't break habits, you have to replace them. speaker-0: Yes. Yes. Habits are sneaky that way because there's if you're concentrating on breaking the habit, that means you're concentrating on that habit. So that's what you're ingraining is whatever that habit is. If you're seeking to replace that habit, now your concentration is on whatever it is you want to do that's different. So that's where your focus and your energy goes. So you you really can't break a habit. You have to replace it. speaker-1: And then you do that through practice, right? That's what reinforces your next your next R, it reinforces those new habits. speaker-0: Yep, because practice makes permanent. Practice does not make perfect. Just like we said. ⁓ speaker-1: This makes permanent and you're practicing something. Right. Might as well be practicing the things you want to be or have have stay permanent within you. Who you want to be. Practice that stuff. speaker-0: Yes. And you have to. And I'm you I mean, you don't have to approach it like work. Practice doesn't mean work. Practice just means repetitions, which is why you want those repetitions to be good ones. speaker-1: Make them good ones. I I love that. Yep. And then and then revise, right? This is a cycle. This is never done. You're you're continuously thinking about ⁓ is this this is how you you put it, is this still what I want? Will these habits help me grow into who I want to be? ⁓ that's whoa, that one's so super powerful. That also ties to like kind of my longer vision future walk. Like who who do I want to be? Like being really thoughtful about that, even when something's speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: working for you now, you still have to be paying attention to who you want to become. speaker-0: Yes. And you have to actually think about it. You have to ask who do I want to be? Because life is going to happen, but you get to choose who you want to be coming out of that. You know, because if you don't choose, those choices will be made for you and you may not get like what you get. speaker-1: Right, right. Yeah, those choices will be made for you. I see this a lot, and that's an idea of drift. ⁓ you just keep doing what has worked so far, or you keep doing what's worked for others that you maybe have a role model or or or mentor you or you aspire to become like. So you see what they're doing, you you keep doing it, or you follow a career path that someone sets out as saying this is how you should create a career and build a career, and you when you do that without that intention, sometimes you might look back some decades down the road at times, back and be like, how in the world did I get here? Like speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Right? Like how did my life become this? Yeah. well sometimes it might be a joyful surprise, but most of the time I think it's like, whoa, right, maybe I achieved this thing. That's what my focus was on. Maybe career success, for example. But look at all what's happened with these other parts of my life I haven't paid as much attention to. And ⁓ and so you know, you you end up you're practicing something. So so be intentional about it and keep revisiting what those habits are. speaker-0: Yeah. Yes. Yep. And and do it often because you might want to make little tweaks. Cause it's just like how, you know, you're navigating. If you make a little tweak and you make a little tweak and you little tweak, all of a sudden ten years later, you're way off in another direction. While these habits are the same things. You know, you might want to make a little tweak, but you also might want to tweak it back. So you know, paying attention. speaker-1: I just remember one of my old bureau friends, he's also fewers ahead of me at West Point, but he he would call me. I was a new agent, thank you, JB. I'll do a shout-out for you. He would call me every now and again. He was in a different small office in our same state as me. And he would just I pick up the phone, you know, old land lane. And I'd hear these two words. He'd say, asthmoth check. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: We do, I'm like, ⁓ thank you. We do an Azmuth check. Like, what a mentor, what a friend. Like, all right, are you? I was new, I was absorbing, I was trying to figure it out. I was trying everything on and seeing what worked for me and watching different people. And he was just like that grounding voice of like azimuth check. And so that's that still resonates so deeply with me, having someone who can do that to help make sure you're headed where you want to be headed. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Be an accountability partner for lack of a better word, you know? You said you wanted to do this. Is this really what you want to do? Do you want me to help you do this? Because I can help you, but I don't have to. You know, there's empathy again. What's your perspective? Do you want compassion? Do you want my help? Or do you just want me to witness what you're saying and what you're doing and just, you know, go along with it? It's that's up to you. But but empathy, you know, compassion might not be Maybe you don't even need any action there. Maybe you just need to be there. speaker-1: Yeah. Okay, that's a really great point you brought up for anyone in a conversation. I know as a coach, it probably happens to you, it happens to me, like the whole idea of treating others like we want to be treated, but maybe not. Maybe they don't want someone to give them ideas or reflection or feedback. Maybe they just want to say something out loud, put it out there, see how it sounds, and have just someone who can hold that space from. Yeah. That's like As a coach, do you do you set that framework or as a as a leader, do you set it set that with someone else initially? Like, hey, what do you want from me? What do you need from me? speaker-0: Yeah. No, it's called the platinum rule. Because the golden rule is do onto others as you would have done. The platinum rule is do onto others as they would have done. Yes. So we, you know, and sometimes, yeah, I mean, I'm the coach. I'm the one who's supposed to lead to a certain degree, but I'm also constantly checking in, you know, is this helping you? Is this what you meant? Is this getting us to your goal? You know, help me help you. And the way to do that is to ask. That's the other thing. People are like, well, how how do I know what the perspective is? And it's like, did you ask? Did you ask? Ask them. Start a conversation. Verbally say, is this what you want? speaker-1: Right. Right. That's great. Set that as ⁓ at the at the start and then I end every coaching conversation I have with someone, like in that formal role. I should probably do this in other parts of my life too, but I'm like two things, right? One, like, what did you learn? One thing, what did you learn about yourself? But also how am I how am I serving and helping you? Like what can I do differently? What can I do better? And because you need ⁓ it models right, it models vulnerability, models openness and growth and all that, but also that's the only way yeah we can course correct if if maybe I am and I'm engaging with one one ⁓ person I'm working with the same as I am someone else but it's not really that what that person needs right it's the only sometimes the only way that that can come up or it's a really good time for that to come up to create that formal formal time there in a session. speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. Because it's just like you said, without it, you know, not only am I unable to serve that person better, but I want to get better. I want to be a better coach. I want to be able to be more effective. And that's how I learn. So it's a win-win. speaker-1: I I love that. All right. I wanna get to Empathy op or empathy opportunities as you've put it. I I I I would love to kind of go through these different opportunities we have during the day for empathy. And you I don't want to be a spoiler because I do people you need to watch her TEDx talk. It's fantastic. Please do. So I don't want to spoil it so you don't have to give the whole thing, but I would love to talk about those opportunities for empathy during the day. However much you want to reveal of that. speaker-0: Sure, yeah. No, research has shown that there's seven to nine opportunities to actually use empathy during the day. So as you're out in public, as you're out and about, as you're doing things, you know, you might be surprised at where and when these things pop up for you to be able to take perspective. You know, it's funny because in working on my dissertation, one of my questions for my interviewees were where, you know, give me an example of how you would use empathy out in the world. And like sixty percent of them gave an example at the grocery store. I don't know why. It it just maybe because it's someplace we all have to go, but you know, so just even in the parking lot at the Walmart or whatever, you never know. But the point is, is that okay, yeah, I can see how I could do it for this person or my kid or my employees or my partner, but how many of those were for yourself? speaker-1: It's like a whoa. I know. And you showed that part. I was like, ⁓ man, did I listen to anything she said? Because it's like habits, it's in green. I was like, yes, myself. But that's like a golly, yeah, we gotta we gotta show the same thing for ourselves. speaker-0: Just ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. We have to. If you don't for yourself, you don't stand a chance of showing it for anybody else. speaker-1: Yeah, ⁓ yeah, indeed, indeed, indeed. You gotta start with yourself. Okay. Well, if someone is like right now they're listening, like, all right, I yeah, I'm I'm really good at this habit of self-judgment and lack of self-compression. And maybe I recognize it is spilling over into some other relationships. And I've always thought they, the they were the problem, but maybe I want to look in red. What is a thing that person can even start to do today to course correct a bit? speaker-0: Start with trying to eliminate that judgment, whether it's for yourself or for the other person. And when it doesn't come easily the first or the second or the hundredth time, keep doing it. Because one thing we do by eliminating that judgment is we start to pull in that cognitive empathy piece. I mean, when I talk about being critical, not caring, and self-observation, that's really what I want people to do. I want you to look at these things with your brain and not with your heart. Which is why what I say is you need to keep a cool head and a warm heart. So if you can approach those kind of of situations with both, you need both, a cool head and a warm heart. It's a good way to start with your observation and and, you know, maybe understanding what's actually going on underneath. speaker-1: There's a that's great. That it brings to mind a whack-a-mole. speaker-0: So speaker-1: Again, another thing I I've I've learned and used before is ⁓ phrasing like that's not true because that's not true because that's not true because and and just repeating that every time something creeps in, whatever your phrase is, right? Like that's if if I'm beating myself up about something. That's not and I catch myself. Number one, you gotta catch yourself. Once you catch yourself, like that's not true because you kind of whack them all and push it down and push it down and push it down. Not to be brutal, but just like I think that visualization sticks a little bit with people. ⁓ is is like that's not true because that's not true because that's And then over time, that's the repetition piece, right? Over time, that starts changing, like that's how your brain starts to learn to think about things a different way. And it can change how you start to view your own thoughts. And when you replace whatever you thought before with that's not true because this that's the replacement piece that your brain just starts to put in there, and that's how your thoughts can change. And it can apply to yourself, can apply to others, can apply to our unconscious biases. I mean, also. sorts of different things. speaker-0: Yeah. One thing that I've used, I I don't know that there's any research backing this up, but it's worked for me, is this idea that the first thought you have is what you've been socialized with. It's what society wants you to think, it's what you've had the repetition, maybe you've heard from your parents, whatever. But the second thought is yours. So like if you think a thought and your second thought is that's not true because you're getting rid of that conditioning. You're getting rid of that societal conditioning. And and that's actually really worked for me a lot because sometimes I'll have these thoughts and I'll just be like, That's terrible. Why would I even think that? Well, the first thought was the terrible one. The second one was, That's not me. I don't that's conditioning, that's society, that's not mine. So it it's a little easier to be less judgmental when you can kind of separate yourself out from it and go, that wasn't my that's how I've been trained, but it's not mine. speaker-1: It's a great framework and strategy for removing yourself from that judgment. That's really, really good. Thank you. All right. So that is the that's the one thing. Okay. In addition to finishing up your dissertation to get your second doctorate, what else are you working on right now? You're like, yeah, right. I'm like really happy when I get to bed by whatever time I wake up in the morning for the new day. That's all I can do. speaker-0: Yeah. Yes. I am. So there's that. And that one, I mean, August is gonna be here before I know it. So I'm really putting on the gas with that. But next week I'm I'm speaking at Harvard with a with a speakers bureau. So I'm really excited about that and and working on those talks and you know, sweating that. speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, you're gonna be brilliant. You're brilliant. It'll be amazing. ⁓ my goodness. Can you well by the time this comes out, you'll have have ⁓ done that already. Can you share? Is it, you know, is it pretty much in line with what we've talked about today? speaker-0: Yeah, I'm excited. It is, it's kind of an extension on that though. ⁓ I'm I'm really drilling in on boundaries, what they are, why they're important, how you set them, how they go from being healthy to unhealthy, you know, that sort of thing. Because without good boundaries, you can't have empathy. You've you've got to be able to take care of yourself. But it also means having boundaries and not barriers. And that's the difference between being healthy and being unhealthy. So that's that's really what I'm I'm talking about next week because it's it's one of those things that keeps coming up with empathy that you know people either lack barriers and so they end up kind of being a pushover, which gives empathy a bad name, even though it's not empathy, it's a lack of boundaries, or they end up, you know, putting up barriers that are so high that nobody can get through. And that's unhealthy. They're both unhealthy. So it's like, okay, here's what they are, this is how you put them in place. These are your three steps to make sure that they're they're going to work and what you need to do. So yeah, that's where I'm going with that one. speaker-1: That's really, really interesting. Yes, I've I well, we need to come back and you know, when you're done, talk about boundaries next, because well, they're a big source of violating your own boundaries, whether you state them or not, whether you even recognize you have them, we've got them. When you violate your own, ⁓ my gosh, that's a big source of unwellness and stress in people too. So and yourself. Maybe a boundary could be like speaker-0: I like. speaker-1: creating a boundary of those negative things you say to yourself, that judgment, that self-judgment, that could be a healthy boundary to put into place. Le Whack Mole. speaker-0: Absolutely. Well, step three is that you have to have a consequence. Not enough ⁓ a boundary without a consequence is just a suggestion. And not everybody is going to respect that. So you create an if-then statement. If this happens, then I will do that. If you yell at me in a meeting, then I will walk out and I will do it every time. So it has to be something that you're willing to do. So with your your self-judgment thoughts, you know, if I have this thought of self-judgment, then I will negate it with. That's not true because. So yeah, that's like right on. speaker-1: So good. ⁓ my goodness. ⁓ thank you so much, Melissa. I am so grateful ⁓ for you, for your time, for being here, for sharing just an inch of your mile deepness or mile wideness. I don't know, probably but with you both, certainly mile deep, mile-wide, your greatness with us. Just sharing some really valuable tools, strategies, steps we can take. ⁓ starting with the idea that self-empathy is. Is essential and it's so so so important as a leader, as a human, in all our relationships. ⁓ and it because it's gotta that leads to self-compassion, and that is the key to compassion for others as well. So, thank you for these amazing frameworks you've outlined ⁓ towards building this, ⁓ and thank you for this work you continue to do. And I'm really excited to learn ⁓ you know more from you, and as I'm sure. our listeners are so you're eq via empathy.com is that still correct okay eq via i when i saw that initially i'm like echo echo via empathy am i the tell me ⁓ eq vi a empathy dot com and please please please do check out her tedx talk shattering shame with self-empathy it is speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: So well done, and it is it just resonated a lot with me for that step of self self-compassion and her book and podcast, The Empathic Leader. So thank you again. If you are finding value in our podcast, please follow so you don't miss any future episodes and leave a comment about what resonated most from our conversation with Melissa today. And this week, ask if you're including yourself in those seven to nine opportunities you have each day to show empathy. And what would change? Ask yourself what would change if you extended to yourself the same grace you give to others. You can take a future walk while thinking about those questions and see what becomes clear. Thanks for joining me on the Future Walk Podcast. And remember, practice, practice those R's, practice the self-observation, self-reflection, self-awareness, and self-compassion. Choosing empathy will help you lead to the action of compassion. And until next time, enjoy your walk.