Latest / Pod Save America / "Statues over soldiers.”

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"Statues over soldiers.” · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America, I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Jon Lovett.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: I'm Tommy Vitor. On today's pod, I talk to Biden
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: advisor Ron Klain about the state of the pandemic and
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: the state of the campaign. Before that, we'll talk about
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: the stunning report that Russia put a bounty on American
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: troops in Afghanistan, that the Trump administration has done absolutely
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: nothing about it. We'll also talk about the president's decision
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: to double down on racism as a 2020 strategy and
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: the fight over health care that could shape the fall campaign.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: But first, love it. How was the show this weekend?
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: Great love it or leave it with Larry Wilmore, who
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: joined for the monologue. We had a great conversation. And
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: Ari Berman came by to talk about efforts to stop
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: vote suppression after the primaries we saw last week. And
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: we had highlights with Guy Branum and Travelle Anderson from
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: our Pride Parade. And it was a delight.
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: A delight.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: Quick notes about two other cricket pods. The final episode
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: of Wind of Change is now available on all platforms.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: So check it out if you haven't already. And on
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: Pod Save the People. DeRay and Sam have welcomed two
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: new people to their team. Kaya Henderson and Diara Ballinger
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: will be joining for the news each week. Kaya is
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: the former chancellor of the DC Public Schools, and Diara
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: is a State Department alum who is also Hillary Clinton's
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: director of engagement. Very exciting additions. If you haven't already,
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: go check out Pod Save the People. All right, let's
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: get to the news. So the bar for what counts
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: is a bombshell story that has been raised pretty high
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: here in the Trump era, The New York Times certainly
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: cleared it with their piece on Friday, quote, American intelligence
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: officials have concluded that a Russian military intelligence unit secretly
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: offered bounties to Taliban-linked militants for killing coalition forces in Afghanistan.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: And here's what's even more stunning. The Times reports that
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: this information made its way, quote, to the highest levels
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: of the White House, was included in the president's daily brief,
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: and was the subject of a National Security Council meeting
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: in late March. It is now late June and the
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: Trump administration has done absolutely nothing to respond to intelligence
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: that Russia paid militants to kill American troops, which according
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: to another report last night from the Washington Post, they
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: succeeded in doing. Here's what Joe Biden had to say
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: shortly after the news broke.
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: Not only has he failed to sanction or impose any
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: kind of consequences on Russia for this egregious violation of
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: international law, Donald Trump has continued his embarrassing campaign of
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: deference and debasing himself before Vladimir Putin. He had had
• 2:43
  Speaker 4: this information, according to The Times, and yet he offered
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: to host Putin in the United States and sought to
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: invite Russia to rejoin the G7. His entire presidency has
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: been a gift to Putin, but this is beyond the pale.
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: It's a betrayal of the most sacred duty we bear
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: as a nation, to protect and equip our troops when
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: we send them in the harm's way.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: Tommy, Trump says he was never told, never briefed. The
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: White House said he wasn't briefed. But they also haven't
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: really challenged the central reporting about the existence of the
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: intelligence report or the fact that there was an NSC
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: meeting or the fact that the administration hasn't responded yet.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: I guess Kayleigh McEnany just now was given a press
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: briefing where she said there wasn't consensus in the intelligence
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: community about the report. Do you think it's believable that
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: Trump wasn't briefed? And I guess beyond that, what's your
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: general reaction to this whole story?
• 3:42
  Speaker 5: I don't think it's believable. I mean, look, I assume
• 3:44
  Speaker 5: they're lying with most things, but this in particular. I mean,
• 3:47
  Speaker 5: Russia deciding to put bounties on the heads of U.S.
• 3:50
  Speaker 5: and British service members is a very big deal. It's
• 3:54
  Speaker 5: something that will require a policy decision and that you
• 3:56
  Speaker 5: would need to brief to the president of the United States.
• 3:58
  Speaker 5: When I initially read the reports in that denial, I
• 4:01
  Speaker 5: did wonder about the intelligence itself and wondered maybe if
• 4:04
  Speaker 5: it wasn't all that strong. But there have been these
• 4:06
  Speaker 5: subsequent press reports that say the basis for this intel
• 4:10
  Speaker 5: was Navy SEALs found $ 500, 000 in U.S. cash in a
• 4:14
  Speaker 5: Taliban stronghold, which is very unusual. And then they were
• 4:18
  Speaker 5: interrogating captured Taliban members and they heard about the bounties
• 4:22
  Speaker 5: that way. The Times also reported that the CIA later
• 4:25
  Speaker 5: confirmed the what the military had learned and that the
• 4:28
  Speaker 5: US had briefed the UK on these findings. So those
• 4:31
  Speaker 5: are all indications that we believe this to be true
• 4:35
  Speaker 5: or we believe it to be credible enough to share
• 4:36
  Speaker 5: with allies. And so I guess there's a chance that
• 4:39
  Speaker 5: Trump wasn't briefed on the information because he like just
• 4:42
  Speaker 5: literally doesn't do his job, right? I mean, John Bolton
• 4:44
  Speaker 5: in his book says Trump gets the PDB once, maybe
• 4:47
  Speaker 5: twice a week. He doesn't read any intelligence reports. He
• 4:51
  Speaker 5: doesn't try to learn about policy. So maybe their argument
• 4:53
  Speaker 5: is like, hey, we would have briefed them if we
• 4:55
  Speaker 5: had time, but he was too busy watching Fox and Friends.
• 4:58
  Speaker 5: But I just think that the other option maybe is
• 5:02
  Speaker 5: they're so conditioned to hearing Trump get mad when he
• 5:06
  Speaker 5: hears something negative about Russia. He has this weird affinity
• 5:09
  Speaker 5: for Putin. He consistently takes Putin's word over his own government.
• 5:13
  Speaker 5: So maybe they don't broach the subject anymore around him.
• 5:15
  Speaker 5: But look, I think we should just default, assume that
• 5:18
  Speaker 5: they are lying about this like many other things.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: What are some of the possible reasons for the Trump
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: administration not responding to this?
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: It is baffling.
• 5:30
  Speaker 5: I mean, options include incompetence, the fact that he doesn't
• 5:35
  Speaker 5: want to hear anything negative about Russia ever.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 5:39
  Speaker 5: I mean, it's really hard to speculate on why it
• 5:42
  Speaker 5: is they are so bad at the job, but there
• 5:43
  Speaker 5: are a host of reasons one could consider.
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: Love it.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: What was your reaction to the story?
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: It was very bad. Very bad story. You know, I
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: was struck by, so first of all, it's remarkable how
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: much of our politics rotates around what this means for Trump,
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: even in the immediate follow on to a story this damning,
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: not just about Trump, but about what Russia is doing
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: to attack the United States, attack US interests, whether it's
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: interference in our election or trying to have Americans killed abroad.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: And immediately Trump's response is, I didn't know anything about this.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: As if that's the.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: Most important question. We don't know what the truth is.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: We'll never We'll never get a true answer from the
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: White House about it. Was it something in his daily
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: brief that he didn't read or didn't pay attention to?
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: Was it something that they are conditioned by Trump's abusive
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: office to not bring to him? It doesn't really matter.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: You know, what we learned from the Bolton book, what
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: we learned from the reporting around Ukraine, what we just
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: learned in reporting around what Trump said about the Uyghurs
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: in China, you know, Trump views everything through the lens
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: of what it means for his personal relationships, his past,
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: present and future financial interests. You know, Biden's response is
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: all about, you know, Trump being in the pocket of Putin.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: And I understand that.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: I get that.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: But we are constantly confronted by a president who on
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: across a variety of fronts doesn't care about America's interests,
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: doesn't care if we live or die, whether it's around
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: the coronavirus or American service members in Afghanistan, because it's
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: 100 percent through the lens of what it means for him,
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: his ego, what he said in the past, what he's
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: trying to do around the G7 or what have you.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: And it's just yet another sort of damning example of that.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: It does seem like this is one that sort of,
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, a number of Republicans in Congress have also
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: sort of like demanded more information, including Trump supporting conservatives
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: like Liz Cheney, Dan Crenshaw, Lindsey Graham. I see that
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: the White House is giving a briefing today about this
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: only to Republicans.
• 7:42
  Speaker 5: Yeah, only to Republicans. Way to build confidence in your response.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it does. I do think it's, you know,
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: I think I saw Pelosi on the Sunday shows talking about,
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: you know, As I always say, all roads lead to Putin. But,
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: you know, there is the Putin angle to this. There
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: was also the angle that just like, can you imagine
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: being American service members and learning that there was possibly
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: a bounty put on your head by Russia and your
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: commander in chief knew about it or his administration knew
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: about it and did nothing about it?
• 8:13
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, look, I think that's why you see
• 8:15
  Speaker 5: even people like Dan Crenshaw, who is like as You know,
• 8:19
  Speaker 5: big a Trump fan as there comes tweeting that we
• 8:21
  Speaker 5: need to get to the bottom of this. I mean,
• 8:23
  Speaker 5: I think this is not going to go over well
• 8:26
  Speaker 5: in the U.S. military or among veterans. I mean, it
• 8:29
  Speaker 5: is really pretty staggering to just sit on this information
• 8:32
  Speaker 5: for at least three months. There are some reports that
• 8:36
  Speaker 5: they heard about this intelligence back in January. Like, what
• 8:38
  Speaker 5: the hell was done to protect U.S. service members from
• 8:41
  Speaker 5: these attacks? Literally, this is your job as commander in chief.
• 8:45
  Speaker 5: This is one of the most important things you do.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: It's such an overdetermined sort of Trump scandal, right? Like
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: it would be enough if he was sycophantic towards Russia
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: in a way we can't fully explain based on the
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: information that we have. It would be enough if he
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: was so grossly incompetent that he can't read or pay
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: attention to the intelligence briefings he received. It would be
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: enough if he had this deference towards dictatorial regimes and
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: autocrats around the world. Like all of those individually would
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: be a scandal of epic proportions for the American presidency,
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: but he does them all at once. And it makes
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: it really hard to meet out what the exact motivations
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: are and what's going on inside the administrations, especially because
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: they're never going to tell us the truth about it.
• 9:25
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: He's also like, we learned, I mean, Biden said this
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: in his response, but since then he's talked to Putin
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: and invited him to the G7. knowing this intelligence, at
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: least the administration knew this intelligence. I mean, it is wild.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: But to your point, Lovett, the motivation almost doesn't even
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: matter at this point. It is yet another example of
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: the fact that Donald Trump, President of the United States,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: is just not cut out for the job, not doing
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: the job. The world happens around him, crises happen around him,
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: and he is just sort of not there, not doing
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: anything about it. That is like the results are the same,
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: even though we can't always tell what the fucking motivation.
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: Is with him. Yeah.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: It's bad.
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: So the president was, was not going to let this
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: Russia story keep him from his true passion of tweeting
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: the most awful shit possible all weekend. On Sunday, he
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: shared a video with his 82 million followers saying, that
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: showed his supporters driving a golf cart in a Florida
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: retirement community while chanting white power to a group of protesters.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: In a tweet, Trump thanked the supporters who he referred
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: to as quote, great people. Three hours later, the tweet
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: was deleted and the White House said that Trump didn't
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: hear the phrase white power, even though it was repeated
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: three times by two men in the first 12 seconds
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: of the video. A few weeks ago, we talked about
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: that NBC story about how the Trump campaign couldn't decide
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: whether the president should embrace police reform and give a
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: speech on race and unity, or whether he should double
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: down on racist culture wars. Seems like he made a decision, huh, Tommy?
• 10:59
  Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, look, he is basically a rusty old
• 11:03
  Speaker 5: Confederate monument just waiting to be torn down himself. I mean,
• 11:07
  Speaker 5: I love the suggestion that a phrase uttered in the
• 11:11
  Speaker 5: first 10 seconds of the video, just like he didn't
• 11:14
  Speaker 5: hear it, but that like a bunch of, like a
• 11:16
  Speaker 5: half dozen old people on golf carts showed enormous enthusiasm
• 11:21
  Speaker 5: for the Trump campaign. It's not funny because it's disgraceful
• 11:26
  Speaker 5: that our president would tweet out white supremacist content repeatedly
• 11:30
  Speaker 5: on top of all the other stuff he did this weekend.
• 11:33
  Speaker 5: But their lies are just so unbelievable at this point
• 11:36
  Speaker 5: that I almost can't believe that four years into it,
• 11:39
  Speaker 5: you still have the media sort of treating them as
• 11:42
  Speaker 5: credulous and being like, well, the president says he didn't
• 11:46
  Speaker 5: hear the obvious lies loud white supremacist remark made right
• 11:51
  Speaker 5: at the beginning of the video. It's just, it's ludicrous.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: I also love it, noticed on a couple of people
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: on Twitter being like, It's a diversion. He's trying to
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: distract us from the Russia story. And I'm like, here's
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: the thing. First of all, first of all, it's not
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: a diversion. It's morally repugnant racism, first of all. Second
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: of all, if you want to talk about the politics
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: of it, just from a pure political level, like why
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: is he distracting us to pay attention to something that
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: is also not politically helpful for him?
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. Don't pay attention. Trump's launch of a
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: nuclear missile into Western Europe is a distraction. Yeah, I'm
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: not interested in that at all.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: It's so frustrating.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: It is amazing. It is now four years since Donald
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: Trump became the Republican nominee, basically. And we're still playing
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: this game with his sort of selective hearing. You know,
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: he says there's great people on both sides, but wasn't
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: talking about them saying Jews will not replace us. Now
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: he's tweeting this white power, but he deleted it three
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: hours later after some criticism because apparently he didn't hear it.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: Of course, he's like this wink and a nod, the
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: kind of not really plausible, but what they would consider
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: plausible deniability on his ability to kind of send a
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: message to the worst parts of his base, the white
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: supremacist base, his either future political coalition or future audience
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: at Trump News, the renamed OAN, whichever way it goes,
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: he'll be fine. And it's... It's a waste of time to,
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: you know, debate what his intentions were. We know what
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: his intentions were. They've been the same since he fantasized
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: about bullets dipped in pig's blood as a candidate. We
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: know what he's after here. It's not a secret.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: It also seems like it is much more than that
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: tweet and whether or not he fucking heard the video.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, middle of a pandemic, coronavirus cases surging, economies
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: in the shitter. Um, police reform is sort of like
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: paused in Congress and is probably dying in Congress. And
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: on Friday, his executive order is directing the justice department
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: to prioritize the prosecution of protesters who damaged federal monuments.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: So like, you know, Donald Trump's big move last week
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: was protecting those Confederate statues and, um, he thinks this
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: is a winning issue for him. He was also tweeting
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: out FBI wanted posters of protesters who tried to take
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: down those statues all weekend. He basically thinks this is
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: a winning issue, but it's not, right? Like his culture
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: war identity politics, at least for right now, are not
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: working for him and his campaign. Why do you guys
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: think that is?
• 14:30
  Speaker 5: I think people's views on race have changed and they've
• 14:34
  Speaker 5: changed dramatically. And I think the Black Lives Matter movement
• 14:36
  Speaker 5: deserves a lot of credit for it. I mean, The
• 14:38
  Speaker 5: recent New York Times poll, I believe, had 59 percent
• 14:41
  Speaker 5: of voters who believe that George Floyd's murder was part
• 14:45
  Speaker 5: of a broader pattern of excessive police violence towards African-Americans.
• 14:48
  Speaker 5: Black Lives Matter and the police have nearly identical, very
• 14:52
  Speaker 5: favorable ratings. But Trump's handling of racial issues is disapproved
• 14:58
  Speaker 5: by basically a two to one margin. So people are
• 15:01
  Speaker 5: not stupid. they see that he is inciting racial violence.
• 15:05
  Speaker 5: And it is not lost on them that rushing to
• 15:08
  Speaker 5: put out an executive order about protecting statues is an
• 15:12
  Speaker 5: absurd waste of time when you have coronavirus cases spiking
• 15:15
  Speaker 5: and the economy in free fall. And so, like, I
• 15:17
  Speaker 5: think people have just seen through this. Now, what's particularly
• 15:20
  Speaker 5: worrisome to me is that a lot of these tweets
• 15:24
  Speaker 5: seem to really be promoting, like, vigilantism. When you're tweeting out, like,
• 15:27
  Speaker 5: most wanted posters and When you have people taking violent
• 15:31
  Speaker 5: action at protests, like in New Mexico, there was one
• 15:34
  Speaker 5: far right extremist who shot a protester, right? Like this
• 15:37
  Speaker 5: is really bordering on incitement, if not already there. And
• 15:41
  Speaker 5: it's really worrisome to me. But I do think like
• 15:44
  Speaker 5: just politically, he is so far off of understanding where
• 15:48
  Speaker 5: the country is right now that it is a very
• 15:51
  Speaker 5: self-defeating strategy if there is a strategy at all.
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: There's this.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: strange phenomenon right now. You know, there's people joke, Oh,
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: Twitter is not real life. Twitter is not real life.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: But because so much of real life has been turned off, um,
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: because of the pandemic in many ways, like a lot
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: is playing out on Twitter and it becomes a place
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: where people surface what they see. And it becomes a
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: place where some of the worst behavior and worst conduct
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: is shared like a Victorian melodrama. You know, it's, there's
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: like snidely whiplash piano music. And it's like, look at
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: this woman throwing shit at a an AMP because she
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: didn't want to wear a mask. Look at this awful
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: conduct that we saw. A lot of it, an important
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: symbol of people's selfishness, people's racism. That is a big
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: part of this moment. Trump sees that. And as president,
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: he sees a rising kind of multiracial coalition currently protesting,
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: currently coming out in favor of more compassionate, more generous policies.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: And it's not just a danger to him. It's a
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: danger to the operating principles of Republican politics, and he
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: doesn't particularly know how to respond. But the one thing
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: he knows is that what has worked for him in
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: the past is find the sources of division, find the
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: places where there's the most animus and anger and rage
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: and grievance, and spin that up. Share the couple on
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: their lawn pointing guns at protesters who are doing nothing
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: more than passing by their house. Share a video claiming
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: that there's nothing to the Black Lives Matter movement. Share
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: an image of of a bunch of old people bickering
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: over him, about him, including two old people saying white power.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: Like get, you know, stir the pot, you know, turn
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: up the heat, add fuel to this fire, and maybe
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: just maybe there's a way he can win in that
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: kind of divisive, toxic environment.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, look, if you look at that piece
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: that Astead Herndon wrote in the New York Times with
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: some of that polling that Tommy mentioned, if you're looking
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: for like bad news in those polls, as I mentioned
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: in the piece, 40% of white voters believe that discrimination
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: against white people is almost as bad now as discrimination
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: against black people, right? But 40% of white voters is
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: not enough to get you a majority, not nationally, not
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: even in the battleground states anymore where Trump has an
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: electoral college advantage. And you do get the sense that
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: sort of the country is passing him by. on these
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: issues finally, even though in 2016, you know, he just
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: eked out that majority in the battleground states. But I
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: think the protests and just the passage of time over
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: the last several years have really shifted something. I mean,
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: on the day that Trump shares that video, the Mississippi
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: legislature voted to change its state flag, which still included
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: the Confederate battle emblem. Mississippi, by a very large margin,
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: and the states that, you know, not a bunch of
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: liberals down there in Mississippi in the legislature. And to me,
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: that was just like having the president of the United
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: States share that video on the same day that Mississippi
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: does it is like, you know what? I don't know
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: that he, like you said, love it. He thinks the
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: world is sort of, what's happening on Twitter and all
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: the fights on Twitter and Fox and OAN. And that's
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: really not an accurate reflection of the country anymore, or
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: even a majority of voters in these states that he
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: needs to win.
• 19:03
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, 55% of Mississippians wanted to change the flag.
• 19:07
  Speaker 5: The US military was ready to tee up a conversation
• 19:10
  Speaker 5: about getting rid of Confederate names on US bases. And
• 19:14
  Speaker 5: Trump's move was just to shut down that conversation. I
• 19:16
  Speaker 5: do think it shows that he is completely out of
• 19:18
  Speaker 5: step with the country, with institutions, with Southern states, with everybody.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder too, like if we're sitting here on,
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: you know, Wednesday, November 4th, and Donald Trump was reelected,
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: and we look at how he could have shifted it,
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: it would have had to involve the total kind of,
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: you know, unleashing of a negative campaign about Joe Biden
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: that was incredibly effective. But one of the things we've
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: talked about before and seen in these polls is Donald
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: Trump's shocking underperformance amongst the seniors that used to be
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: the people that were going to have to get him elected.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: And I wonder if there's some thought here, if you
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: call it a thought, that if there's any hope for
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: him to win, it's getting those white seniors scared again,
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: getting them aggrieved again, getting them angry again, getting them back.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: And maybe they're all more scared of dying, you know,
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: right from the coronavirus.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: That is exactly right. And If we wake up and
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: that's the result, I think it will be less about
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: the fact that he ran a white identity politics racial
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: grievance campaign, which, remember, in 2018, he did this with
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: the caravan in the last couple months. Also didn't work
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: for him because it turned off a bunch of suburban
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: moderate independent voters, even though it might have juiced some
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: of his margins in the red states. if he pulls
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: it together, it will be because those seniors are somehow
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: no longer afraid that he is sort of leaving them
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: to fend for themselves in the middle of a pandemic
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: and that he has done something to not only fix
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: the virus, but fix the economy. And then, you know,
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: the focus is taken off his response to this sort
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: of racial reckoning right now. And it's back towards the economy.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: That's the hope. The hope is not sort of running
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: the same play that he's been running for the last
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: couple of years on race. I don't think that.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: Works for Yeah, you look at this reckoning we're having
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: around racial injustice and the way it's sort of reshaping
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: the dynamics, even amongst white voters on some of these issues.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: You look at the coronavirus, how it's alienated him from
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: his base. You look at the economic situation and the
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: fact that it has totally obliterated his main argument for
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: his reelection. And you start to see why he is
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: reaching back to find arrows and there's no arrows back
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: there for him to grab.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: Just playing the hits. So one story with enormous implications
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: that broke late last week was when the Trump administration
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: filed an 82-page brief that formally asked the Supreme Court
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: to strike down the entire Affordable Care Act, a move
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: that would cause 23 million Americans to lose their health
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: coverage and eliminate protections for 130 million Americans who have
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: pre-existing conditions. The Supreme Court will probably hear oral arguments
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: in the case this fall, but will likely not decide
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: the case until after the election. On Sunday, Health and
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: Human Services Secretary Alex Azar was asked by Jake Tapper
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: to what Trump's Obamacare replacement plan is. And he said,
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: they don't have the exact details yet. Joe Biden responded
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: in a speech he delivered in Pennsylvania on Friday. Here
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: is a clip.
• 22:09
  Speaker 7: Perhaps most cruelly of all, if Donald Trump has his way,
• 22:13
  Speaker 7: those who have complications from COVID-19 could become the new
• 22:17
  Speaker 7: preexisting conditions. Some survivors will experience lasting health impacts like
• 22:22
  Speaker 7: lung scarring and heart damage. And if Donald Trump prevails
• 22:27
  Speaker 7: in court, Insurers would be allowed, once again, to strip
• 22:30
  Speaker 7: away coverage, jack up premiums, simply because of the battle
• 22:35
  Speaker 7: they survived fighting coronavirus.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: Tommy, I want to know which geniuses in the White
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: House thought it was a good idea to take away
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: health care protections from a third of the country in
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: the middle of a pandemic just a couple of months
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: before the election.
• 22:53
  Speaker 5: Yeah, maybe this is a fool's errand, but I do
• 22:58
  Speaker 5: sometimes try to imagine the staff meetings where these things
• 23:02
  Speaker 5: get decided and what the logic might be. And the
• 23:05
  Speaker 5: only thing I could come up with is that we've
• 23:07
  Speaker 5: known since day one that he had a long list
• 23:12
  Speaker 5: of Obama era accomplishments and that the Affordable Care Act
• 23:16
  Speaker 5: was like the big boss at the end, right? It's
• 23:18
  Speaker 5: like Mike Tyson at the end. And he just wants
• 23:21
  Speaker 5: to get to the, you know, he wants to win
• 23:23
  Speaker 5: the game and just take down the ACA. But it
• 23:26
  Speaker 5: is political insanity to do this in the midst of
• 23:30
  Speaker 5: a pandemic. This must poll 80% disapproval. I can't even
• 23:36
  Speaker 5: imagine how bad the polling would be on the question of,
• 23:39
  Speaker 5: should we rip away healthcare from 23 million Americans in
• 23:43
  Speaker 5: the midst of a pandemic?
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: I love it. It does seem like he gave some
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: sort of indication of how unpopular this is when he
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: tweeted in all caps that he will, quote, always protect
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: people with pre-existing conditions. Always, always, always! Three exclamation points.
• 24:00
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, look, here we are. We are 10 years
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: into the repeal effort. 10 years of this, right?
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: It was, you know, dozens of- That is wild. I
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: thought you were exactly- Yeah, it has been. It's almost
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: 10 years.
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: 10 years.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: 10 years. We've seen Dozens of votes in the House,
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: successful votes to repeal it when it was under Republican control. Obviously,
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: it failed in the Senate once they actually had to
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: do the political work of actually showing what that alternative
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: could be. We're now years into this legal effort to
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: undermine or undo Obamacare from state's attorneys general and from
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: now the Trump administration. We are also years into the
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: sabotage effort by the Trump administration and by Republican governors
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: and legislatures in states that refuse free money from the
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: federal government to bring huge amounts of cash from the
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: federal government into their states to provide health care through Medicaid.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: So we are now a decade into this effort and.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: still to this day, there is no alternative. There is
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: no explanation for what happens because there is none.
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: It is a lie.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: If it is undone, that will be it. There is
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: nothing to replace it. There's nothing for them to do.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: They have no plans. They have no ability to do that.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: So the only thing they're really going to do is
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: lie about it because it is, they've been lying about
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: Obamacare for a decade and a lie can make something
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: unpopular for a while. But what it can't do is
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: help you build the coalition you need to actually come
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: up with an alternative. They don't have one. And so
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: this will continue to be a an albatross around their necks.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: And I don't know why they continue to do it,
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: except to Tommy's point, it's something they said they would do.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: And again, to our earlier conversation, their base of older
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: white voters have Medicare and don't view this as something
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: that will hurt them.
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, so Biden, let's talk about Biden for a second.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: You know, he said in his speech that he's going
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: to outline a new health care proposal in the next
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: few weeks to guarantee that no one would have to
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: spend more than eight and a half percent of their
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: income on health insurance. and that poor Americans would pay
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: even less. He also reiterated his belief that a public
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: option is more important than ever now that so many
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: people are losing their private insurance. It does seem highly
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: unlikely he'll just embrace Medicare for all because he campaigned
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: against it throughout most of the primary. But Lovett, do
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: you think the current political climate allows him to move closer?
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: And like, how far should he go? Can he go?
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: I think so.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: Like, you know, the The primary being fought on Medicare
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: for all versus a public option and it becoming pretty
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: acrimonious because that's politics and it's fine. But has I
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: think made this debate a little bit confused to me
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: because I do think there ought to be a pretty
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: big coalition of Democrats coming out in favor to help
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: the tens of millions of people who may lose insurance
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: because their insurance is with their job and we're in
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: the midst of an economic crisis to allow those people
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: into a public program. Like there seems to be a
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: real moment where because of this economic crisis, we can
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: debate the single payer versus a public option. We should
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: have that debate. But right now is a real moment
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: where you could move millions and millions of people permanently
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: into a public system. And that does seem to be
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: a place where there should be some alignment between the
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: single payer crowd and the public option crowd.
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Tommy, what do you think?
• 27:05
  Speaker 5: I mean, yeah, look, I think it's a pretty compelling
• 27:09
  Speaker 5: argument in the middle of a pandemic to say, hey,
• 27:12
  Speaker 5: maybe it's a bad idea to have your health care
• 27:14
  Speaker 5: coverage tied to your employment. I think that that was
• 27:17
  Speaker 5: a good argument before. It's a better argument now. But
• 27:19
  Speaker 5: let's just say, OK, Biden does come out in favor
• 27:22
  Speaker 5: of Medicare for all tomorrow. I think people just need
• 27:24
  Speaker 5: to recognize that the challenge will then be convincing a
• 27:27
  Speaker 5: bunch of Democrats in the Senate because he would have
• 27:29
  Speaker 5: to make calls to people like Gene Shaheen, Doug Jones,
• 27:33
  Speaker 5: Gary Peters, who are incumbents. as well as challengers like
• 27:37
  Speaker 5: Mark Kelly and Cal Cunningham in North Carolina, who have,
• 27:41
  Speaker 5: I think, come out for more moderate positions, more let's
• 27:44
  Speaker 5: expand on the ACA, let's include a public option. I'm
• 27:47
  Speaker 5: not saying it's impossible. I'm not saying you shouldn't try.
• 27:50
  Speaker 5: But I think your question is sort of about that
• 27:52
  Speaker 5: political dynamic and what is possible right now. And those
• 27:56
  Speaker 5: would be the next steps that would have to come
• 27:57
  Speaker 5: after Biden announcing his support for a bigger, more expansive plan.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think one of the consequences of the primary
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: debate was that it was sort of reduced to public
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: option versus Medicare for all, and all the different public
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: option plans were treated the same when they were not.
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: And Pete Buttigieg's public option plan was far more robust
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: than Joe Biden's. And the plan that Kamala Harris and
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: Beto O'Rourke embraced was even more robust than the Pete
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: Buttigieg plan or the Joe Biden plan. And The question
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: with the public option is, and the hope of some
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: of the more progressive proponents of a public option is,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: can a public option eventually crush the private insurance system
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: on its own? As more and more people join the
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: public option because they think it's more efficient, that it's
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: lower premiums, that it covers more people. And so eventually
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: the insurance companies just go away and die out on
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: their own. And there's sort of different levers to pull
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: and different ways to make it a more palatable choice.
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: And I do think as Biden and the unity task force,
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: which has a lot of Sanders people on it is
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: considering this. I think there's, there is a lot of
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: room for him to sort of lean towards some of
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: the more robust public option plans that we saw in
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: the primary, as opposed to sort of the one that
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: he ran on. So hopefully that happens.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: If you are for Medicare for all, the more people
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: we get into the public system, the easier that kind
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: of transition will be in the long run. And right
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: now is, I think, a political moment where, to Tommy's
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: point about how poorly undoing Obamacare right now must pull,
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: making sure in this emergency that every single American has
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: access to something like Medicare or Medicaid, I think, is
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: another issue where you will see incredibly broad, popular support.
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: When we come back, I will talk to Biden advisor,
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: Ron Klain.
• 29:53
  Speaker 8: I'm Patrick Radden Keefe, a reporter at The New Yorker magazine.
• 29:56
  Speaker 8: On my new podcast, Wind of Change, I investigate a
• 29:59
  Speaker 8: rumor I haven't been able to shake since I first
• 30:01
  Speaker 8: heard it years ago. It came from someone inside the CIA,
• 30:04
  Speaker 8: and the story was that the agency had written one
• 30:06
  Speaker 8: of the best-selling rock songs of all time, a song
• 30:09
  Speaker 8: that changed the world. So that was the tip that
• 30:12
  Speaker 8: started me on this story, and it only got crazier
• 30:14
  Speaker 8: from there. Listen to all eight episodes of Wind of
• 30:17
  Speaker 8: Change for free on Spotify, a new original series from
• 30:20
  Speaker 8: Pineapple Street Studios, Crooked Media, and Spotify.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: I am now joined by the man who led the
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Obama response to the Ebola outbreak. He's a current advisor
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: to Joe Biden's campaign, one of the smartest people I've
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: worked with in politics. Ron Klain, welcome back to the pod.
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: John, thanks for having me. Always a pleasure to be here.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: All right. I want to start with the pandemic. How
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: bad is the situation right now? And more specifically, how
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: does it compare to what we went through in March
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: and April? In what ways are we worse off? And
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: are there any ways we're better off?
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: So We're seeing about the same number of daily cases
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: that we were seeing at the earlier peak in March
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: and April, about 40,000 new cases a day. And that
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: continues to rise. So we may indeed hit new records
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: for the numbers of cases. We are better off in
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: two respects. First, the rate of death is down. That's
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: in part because more and more of the cases are
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: among younger people. who can get quite sick but are
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: less likely to die from the virus. And because, as
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: with all epidemics, our medical capacity, our intelligence about how
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: to treat the disease has improved. We don't have necessarily
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: new medicines extensively or whatnot, but just a little more
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: sophistication around how to deal with people with these breathing problems.
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: So there's some improvement in the way in which the
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: disease plays out. Moving to a younger age cohort lowers
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: the fatality rate But we are seeing record numbers of cases,
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: and that's still going up. Last thing, John, is we're
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: starting to see it, obviously, more in places that didn't
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: really have it the first time around, particularly in the
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: South and in the Southwest. In those places, we're seeing
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: the capacity of the health care system really strained to
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: and perhaps beyond the breaking point, particularly in Texas right now,
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: also in Arizona. So we have some very rough times ahead.
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: There's no question about it.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: So if by some miracle, you and a competent team
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: of public health professionals were suddenly put in charge of
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: the coronavirus response right now, what are the sort of
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: initial set of steps you would take to start getting
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: this back under control? Or get under control for the
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: first time?
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, under control for the first time. Well, there's things
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: the government needs to do. There's things the public needs
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: to do. You know, on the government side, we need
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: to really test extensively. President Trump talks about how much
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: he's ramped up testing. But we saw... lines hours and
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: hours long in Texas this weekend, people waiting literally all
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: day to be tested and people getting close to each other,
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: perhaps exposing each other while being tested. We still don't
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: have testing where it needs to be. The president promised
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: on March 6th anyone who wants a test can get one.
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: That's just not true. So we need to fix that.
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: We then need to match it with contact tracing. That is,
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: once we find out who has the virus, We need
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: to identify who they've been in contact with and isolate
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: those people. There's literally zero federal contact tracing program, none, none.
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: And some states are doing better than others. We need
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: a national program on that. We need to really ramp
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: up the work on therapeutics and vaccines. And the other
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: thing the government needs to do is really make sure
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: we're getting protective gear to the people who need it.
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: We still have, particularly on these frontline hospitals, doctors, nurses
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: using reusing gear, using unsafe gear, And as we're sending
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: people back to work, we aren't really sending them back
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: to work with masks and gloves and the things that
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: they really need to be safe. So that's what the
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: government needs to do. But what do we need to do?
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: All of us need to wear masks when we're in public.
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: We need to practice social distancing. And of course, we
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: need to wash our hands quite frequently. I think that
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: we've had kind of a failure on both sides, coupled
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: with the fact that Trump announced a plan for reopening
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: the economy in April. And then as soon as he
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: announced it, basically tweeted out that no one should pay
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: attention to his plan and people should just open willy-nilly.
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: So we have states making their own decisions about when
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: to reopen on different standards. States not even following their
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: own standards. States having then to reverse themselves and reclose.
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: It's complete chaos out there in terms of the things
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: in the economy that are open, the things that are closed,
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: and how those things are operating when they are open.
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: There's just simply... no consistent guidance, no help for people
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: trying to figure this out. And in the end, John,
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: it comes down to a lot of small businesses that
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: are being asked to figure out if they should be
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: opened or closed, figure out what they should be doing
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: to protect their workers, barely able to make the payroll
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: if they can. And they're also supposed to then put
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: up plexiglass barriers, maybe or maybe not. They're supposed to
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: give people gloves, masks, whatever. Just a lot of confusion,
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: a lack of help, a lack of direction from Washington.
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: That's really crushing the effectiveness of our response.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: So I'm sitting here in Los Angeles where we have
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: been under a shelter-in-place order since March 24th, a universal
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: masking order since May 14th. And then yesterday, our public
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: health director said that a sharp increase in cases and
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: hospitalizations here could overwhelm our healthcare system. Do you think
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: Mayor Garcetti, Governor Newsom moved too quickly to reopen things here?
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: And what does that tell us What are sort of
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: the challenges we're facing, even in a state like California?
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: Tell us more broadly about sort of the challenge of
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: controlling this pandemic, even when you do things like require masks.
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So I think, John, I've said since the start
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: of this, since really before the start of this back
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: in March, I said my biggest concern was that we
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: were going into this with like an Articles of Confederation
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: response to a global threat. The Trump administration basically made
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: a decision that each state was going to be on
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: its own. We saw Vice President Pence over the weekend
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: on the Sunday shows selling this as the beauties of federalism.
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: You can't have a state-by-state response to this. This is
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: an interconnected country. People move from state to state. They
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: travel from state to state. And you create pressures on
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: states to open if the rules are different in different states,
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: if there's no consistent standards or whatnot. We've seen the
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: spectacle here of in March, Florida, putting limits on people
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: from New York traveling to Florida. And in June, New
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: York's putting limits on people from Florida traveling to New York.
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: That's just not the way we can handle this as
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: a country. Governor Newsom, I think, has done a very
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: good job. Other governors, Democrats, Republicans have done a very,
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: very good job. But this is a viral threat that
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: came from overseas that threatens our entire country that needs
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: a national response. And asking each state to do it
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: on its own will never, ever succeed.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about the campaign. So Pfeiffer and I have
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: talked a lot about whether Joe Biden should primarily frame
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: this race as a referendum on Donald Trump, or whether
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: he should sort of lean into the idea that this
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: is a choice between two visions for the future, even
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: though that's also how Trump wants to frame the race.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: That's how most incumbents want to frame the race. What
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: do you think about that, about how to sort of
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: frame this race and how Biden should?
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: Well, look, I think whenever you have an incumbent president,
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: the first choice the voters make is whether or not
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: they want to retain the incumbent. He's got the job.
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: If he's doing a good job, voters will almost always
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: decide to keep him. That's what we've seen throughout our history.
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: If they decide that he's not doing a good job,
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: then the question becomes, well, would the other guy do
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: a better job? And I think that's what the second
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: part of this is about. So I think there's no
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: getting around the fact that at one level, it is
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: a referendum on Trump. People have to decide about his performance,
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: about what he's doing. I think that the voters have,
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: by and large, made a decision that Trump's done a
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: lousy job. It's understandable that they've made that decision. He
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: has done a lousy job, COVID being an example of it,
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: but not the only example of it. But then I
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: think that shifts the dialogue into a different kind of conversation.
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: If we don't want Trump, do we think this Biden
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: guy can do better? Why do we think he can
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: do better? How can he fix the problems? And so
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: I think it's incumbent on us in the Biden campaign
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: to lay out what he would do differently than Trump,
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: how we would handle COVID differently than Trump, how we
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: would handle this economic recovery we're going to have to
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: get into differently than Trump, how we would handle the
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: racial division and challenge of racism we face differently than Trump.
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: So I think it's kind of a two-step process where
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: during the end of step one, and then we have
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: to do our part on step two.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: So Biden won the primary without embracing some of the
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: farther left policies that Bernie or Warren did, without paying
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: too much attention to Twitter or certain podcasts. He said
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: people weren't looking for a revolution. Since then, we've been
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: hit by a once in a century pandemic, recession, racial reckoning,
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: all of which have fallen hardest on younger Americans, black Americans,
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: brown Americans, To what extent do you think the monumental
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: events of 2020 have changed or reshaped Biden's thinking about
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: what the country requires at this moment in time? And
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: do you think that will be reflected in his agenda?
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: Well, I think it is reflected in his agenda, John.
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: That is, without speaking ill of any of his Democratic opponents,
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: who I all love and we've worked with and continue
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: to work with, Joe Biden entered this race in the
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: summer in the spring of 2019 and he said the
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: race was about a battle for the soul of America
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: and At the time I know a lot of people
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: were skeptical about that you know I've seen I've heard
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: Dan talk about how he was skeptical about that at
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: the time and I think Framing that framing has proven
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: to be incredibly precious and that's where we are right
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: now We understand I think understand better than we did
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: when Joe Biden got into the race That we are
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: in a fight for the soul of America for what
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: this country stands for what this country believes in And
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: so I think that's the fundamental frame he's put on
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: the race. And I think it's more applicable than ever. Obviously,
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: some of the policy answers continue to evolve, have to evolve.
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: The vice president announced last month that he will be
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: putting forward before the convention a jobs plan to explain
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: how we're going to get back a lot of the
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: jobs that Donald Trump has lost. Trump really has no
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: plan to get those jobs back other than running around
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: and yelling at that everything should open hurly-burly with no
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: real plan for that. And so, of course, we have
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: a COVID plan that wasn't part of the launch of
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: the campaign before the outbreak happened. We have iterations on
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: that plan the vice president has made and continue to make.
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: And we're going to have a jobs plan that recreate
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: a lot of the jobs that have been lost because
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: of Trump's mishandling of the economy. So bottom line is,
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: I think the frame he entered this thing on turns
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: out to be incredibly spot on. for what we need
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: as a country now. And I think he has policy
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: answers that address a lot of that and we'll continue
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: to lay out more policy answers as the campaign progresses.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, I was sort of, I was happy to
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: hear him. He was, I think on his podcast, he
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: was talking to Andrew Yang and he said, I think
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: some of our institutions need revolutionary change. And I was
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: just wondering, you know, when he's talking about he's talked
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: in the last several months about how this economic crisis
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: has sort of taken the blinders off. And do you
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: think sort of his thinking has shifted at all just
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: because of sort of the monumental events, even though he
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: did have that frame about a battle for the soul
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: of the nation right from the beginning?
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: Well, look, I think that the progressive nature of the
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: vice president's agenda was always. underappreciated during the primaries, in
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: part because it was often compared, understandably, to the kinds
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: of policy proposals that Senator Sanders, Senator Warren, and others
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: were putting forward. But look, let's take one issue of
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: particular importance to younger voters, should be to all voters,
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: which is climate change. Joe Biden, in June of 2019,
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: set forward a climate change plan that would have been
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: the boldest plan of any candidate for president ever, other
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: than some of the other candidates who are running this time.
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: So I think that how far forward he was leaning
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: on that plan was somewhat underappreciated when it was compared
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: to other plans. But obviously, it was a hell of
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: a lot bolder and bigger and more revolutionary than anything
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: we worked on in the Obama administration, for example. And
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: so I think that it's not a question necessarily of
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: him now deciding to do revolutionary things or bold things.
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: I think it's hopefully a question of, They're being more
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: focused on how progressive and how far reaching a lot
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: of his ideas have always been and will continue to be.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: So there's plenty of public and private polling out there
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: that shows Biden leading Trump both in the horse race
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: and on almost every single issue and attribute, with the
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: exception of who voters trust to manage the economy and
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: the recovery. What do you think's going on there? And
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: what do you think Biden does or doesn't need to
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: do about that?
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: Well, I think there are a couple of things going
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: on there, John. I think, first of all, I think
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: there's a little bit of a time lag in how
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: voters process these events we're going through. You will remember
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: that back in March and April, voters were still giving
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: Trump reasonably high marks for the COVID response. And I
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: and others, I think you guys argued that that was
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: going to change as voters appreciated just how much Trump
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: had messed it up and how serious a problem we have.
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: I think we're seeing a little bit of that on
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: the economy right now. I think voters still are trying
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: to process, is this economic setback we're in? Is it temporary?
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: Is it permanent? How quickly will it bounce back? They're
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: hearing the president promise them that the recovery will be
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: like a rocket ship. That's what he said last month,
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: that the jobs will come back soon, that everything will
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: reopen and it'll all be okay. And so I think
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: this has to sort out a bit in terms of
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: what people are going to see. And sadly, I think
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: what people are going to see is that The economy
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: has taken a hit, a big hit, because of Trump's
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: mismanagement of the virus. That hit is going to have
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: a long overhang on this economy. And simply running around
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: and yelling, it's time for things to open up, is
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: not a plan to solve that. So I think that's
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: one thing. I think the second thing is, I think
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: Vice President Biden needs to, and he has said, as
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: I said, he said he's going to, over the coming weeks,
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: lay out a program to create more jobs, to fill
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: some of the gaps that Trump has left. So I
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: think it's both, John. I think voters have to gain
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: a sharper appreciation for just how serious of an economic
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: calamity we are experiencing and how it isn't just temporary.
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: You know, Trump's trying to sell this as if there
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: was like a bad blizzard and everything shut down for
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: a couple of days. And then we're going to wake
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: up one day and the snow will be gone and
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: everything will reopen. That's not what this is. We have
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: taken permanent damage to the economy because of Trump's mishandling
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: of the virus. I think that's the first thing that
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: has to really settle in with voters. And I think
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: the second thing is they need to know Joe Biden's
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: got a plan to fix it. He does. He'll be
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: explaining that plan over the coming weeks. And I think
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: that will also help close that gap on that issue.
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: So if, God willing, Joe Biden wins and he steps
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: into that Oval Office, he will step into a situation
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: that is worse than than we did when Obama took
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: office back in 09, which I did not think was possible.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: And let's say he has a democratic Senate. Let's say
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: we flip the Senate as well. He's not gonna have
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: 60 democratic senators like we did briefly in the Obama administration.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: He's still gonna have Mitch McConnell there trying to block
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: every piece of his agenda. I was pleasantly surprised the
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: other day to see Chris Coons of Delaware, of all people,
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: who's fairly moderate, talk about how maybe it's time for
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: the filibuster to go if Mitch McConnell is sitting there
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: blocking every single piece of legislation that President Biden is
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: trying to pass to rescue the economy. I notice a
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: bunch of the Democratic Senate candidates now share that view
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: as well. Do you think that's a view that Joe
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: Biden could come around out?
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: Well, let's see. Let's see what happens here. We've got
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: a long way to go before we get there. We've
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: got to win the Senate back. We've got to see
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: where things go.
• 46:43
  Speaker 6: I look, I think, I think what we, what we
• 46:46
  Speaker 6: need to do is we need to focus right now
• 46:49
  Speaker 6: on winning the election, uh, winning the white house, winning
• 46:52
  Speaker 6: the house, hanging onto the house.
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: And growing a majority there, winning a majority in the Senate. Uh,
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: you know, that's our focus. And I, and obviously explaining
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: what he would do as president, if that all happened.
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: So, uh, I'm going to take it as a maybe Ron.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: I'm going to take it as a maybe.
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: You can take that as a, as a, we're not,
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to get in institutional reforms right now. Okay.
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: Um, so Biden's given a number of speeches. Um, now,
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: you know, everyone just keeps saying, Oh, he's, he's hiding
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: out in the basement. He's not, he's out there. He's
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: speaking all the time. He's, he's, he was in Philadelphia.
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: He was in Pennsylvania the other day, given a speech. Um,
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: Even cable networks like MSNBC and CNN are not covering
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: some of these speeches. How does the campaign get Joe
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: Biden's message in front of voters if the media refuses
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: to cover his speeches like they do Trump's? Do you
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: guys have to rely solely on paid media? Are there
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: ways to get creative? What's the thought process there?
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: Well, Joe, I think that, one, we are trying to
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: put pressure on the cable networks to carry his remarks
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: as they carry Trump's. of having some increasing success with that.
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: I feel a little better about where we are now
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: than we were a few weeks ago. We're also talking
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: about alternative means of distributing those remarks. For example, he
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: gave an economic speech a few weeks ago that now
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: this broadcast nationally and stream nationally. And I think that
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: helps get his remarks out. We obviously have a really
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: robust digital program to get our stuff out via social
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: media platforms and our own platforms and distribute it as
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: widely as we can. We're gonna have to use all
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: the tools A modern communicating to get our message out.
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: And that's what we're determined to do. I hope, wish,
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: expect that the mainstream media will give Biden the same
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: coverage they give Trump. But, you know, if they don't,
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: we're going to get our message out there and with
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: every tool and means at our disposal.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: Positive America, always an option, right? Always an option.
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: Great option.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: One last question about debates, since you have expertly run
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: debate prep for Joe Biden, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, a
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: number of other Democrats through the years. The Trump people
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: now seem to want more debates with Joe Biden, thinking
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: that somehow the comparison will look good for them. What
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: did you learn about debating Trump from helping Hillary prep
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: And do you think you guys will even be able
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: to reach an agreement with the Trump campaign on number
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: of debates, moderators, et cetera?
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: Well, so to take the second question first, the Biden
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: campaign has made it clear that they are going to
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: participate in the debate sponsored by the Presidential Debate Commission.
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: That's three debates with moderators chosen by the Neutral Commission,
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: formats chosen by the Neutral Commission, Dates and places chosen
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: by the neutral commission. That's what every Democratic nominee and
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: Republican nominee for president has done since 1992. Joe Biden's
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: going to do the same thing. Donald Trump, I'm not
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: really sure what his position is. His spokespeople say he
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: wants more debates. But when he was interviewed on Sean
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: Hannity last week, he said he wasn't sure he wanted
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: to debate at all. They still haven't accepted the debate
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: commission's proposal. They say they want to pick the moderators
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: or some of the moderators. They say they want to
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: change the dates. So the only thing we know for
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: sure is that Joe Biden is gonna show up on
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: the dates, at the places, with the moderators, with the
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: formats that the debate commission has set forth. We'll see
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: if Donald Trump shows up or not. I expect that
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: he will. Look, in terms of debating Trump himself, we
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: know what the challenges are. The man lies. The man
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: lies from the moment the opening gun goes off till
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: the very last second of the very last debate. And
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: I think the challenge for his opponent is to balance
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: calling out those lies with getting his or 2016's case,
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: her points across. I think that's one challenge in dealing
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: with Trump. Trump also interrupts rudely and ruthlessly and does
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: everything he can to knock his opponent off his game.
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: I think 2020 will be different debates than 2016. So
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: I think one advantage Trump had in the debates in
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: 2016 and as a candidate in 2016 was he kind
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: of had it both ways. He kind of, would do
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: his base-stirring, outrageous statements, and then occasionally kind of wink-wink
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: that he's a reasonable guy, he's a kind of businessman,
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: he's a quasi-establishment figure, so on and so forth. He
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: was able to kind of appeal to some of the
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: people in the suburbs, the disaffected people in the suburbs,
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: along with his base, and had it a little bit
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: both ways in this. I don't think that's going to
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: be possible in 2020. He has a record now. he
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: has a record of failure. He has a record of
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: failing to deliver on the things he said he would
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: do in 2016. He could stand there in 2016 and say,
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: I will give you a big, beautiful health care plan
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: within 100 days if you elect me. I will give
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: you a trillion dollar infrastructure plan within 100 days if
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: you elect me. I will fix this. I will do this. Well,
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: he's had four years, and he's done exactly none of
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: those things. So I think he's an incumbent now, and
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: he has a record now. And I think it'll be
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: harder for him to kind of hide and duck and
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: weave the way he did in 2016. He will be
• 52:13
  Speaker 3: a handful on the debate stage. He always is. But,
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: you know, I think Joe Biden will also do very,
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: will do well in those debates. I remember back in 2012,
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: when John, you know, we had a rough first debate
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: for President Obama, and Joe Biden was understating it, understating it, perhaps.
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: And Joe Biden was up for the second round. And
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: he was up against Paul Ryan, who many people thought
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: was like the rising genius of the Republican Party. He
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: was going to save the day. And Paul Ryan was
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: this amazing star. Joe Biden went in there and held
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: his own and more so in that debate with Paul Ryan.
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: So I think he'll do quite well against Donald Trump.
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: I think we'll have a very good set of debates
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: against Donald Trump. You know, we're looking forward to it.
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: I've been thinking lately about the advice you gave to
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: Obama before that first debate. which was, you always said,
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: the bigger you are, the harder he falls about Romney. Now,
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: it turns out that because of very specific circumstances that
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: Obama ended up being too slow and he needed to
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: hit harder, which he ended up doing in the second debate.
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: But I was thinking that that seems like really great
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: advice for Biden in this moment against Donald Trump, because
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: it does seem like and you always say this, that
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: you can't fight the last battle. 2020 is different than 2016.
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: But the fact that we have pandemic raging and economic recession,
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: a racial reckoning, Donald Trump going in there and trying
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: to do his thing where he comes up with nicknames
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: for Joe Biden and takes all these shots and talks
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: about his son and does all this, it's going to
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: seem really small. And it does feel like if Joe
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: Biden sort of keeps it up here at like 30,000
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: feet about what people actually care about, he'll do better.
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: But I don't know what your thinking is on that.
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: Well, look, I think if Donald Trump takes swipes at
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: Joe Biden, Joe Biden will defend himself. He'll take some
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: shots at Donald Trump. I don't want anyone to think
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: we're going to go into this debate and kind of
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: just be a punching bag or let Trump get away
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: with stuff. That's not the case. But I do think
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: what you're seeing playing out in public right now makes
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: your point, John, which is that We have thousands of
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: Americans dying every week from COVID. We have millions of
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: Americans who don't have a job. We're losing Americans to
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: COVID at the same rate now that we were losing
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: people in World War II. We have a crisis of racism.
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: And you see Trump going out there every day with
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: these ridiculous tweets and with a singular agenda of protecting
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: Confederate statues. And he just seems like he.
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: Is not up.
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: To this challenge, not up to this moment. He is
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: trying to distract and focus. And I think Trump maybe
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: was able to get away with that earlier in the
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: presidency when these crises weren't on his doorstep. And the
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: fact that he was filling the news with his nonsense,
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: I think got him attention at least. And the cost
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: of that wasn't clear. I think the cost of the
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: fact that this man constantly wants to distract and divide,
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: when we're dealing with really serious crises in this country
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: is the fundamental thing that has broken his position with
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: the public right now. And I think if we can
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: replicate that in the debates, I think that will present
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: a really, really stunning contrast. I mean, the last thing
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: I'll say on this is, I think in some ways,
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: moments of crisis sharpen contrasts. You know, in 2000, I
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: worked for Al Gore Times were relatively good and people
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: were going, well, what's the difference between Al Gore and
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: George Bush anyway? You know, I don't know. It's not
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: that big a difference, so on and so forth. And
• 55:59
  Speaker 3: to some extent, you had a little bit of that
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: going around in 2016, a little bit of that. I
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: don't think there's anyone out there today who says, I
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: don't know the difference between what a Biden presidency and
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: a Trump presidency would be. I don't know the difference
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: between these two people. I don't know the difference between
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: their agendas. I don't know the difference between their character.
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: I think the crises we're facing now have made all
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: those differences very, very sharply. And in some ways, the
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: critical moment of this debate will be when they both
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: stand on the stage side by side and voters are
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: presented with that choice, with that contrast that is so
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: powerful in this moment based on what they've both said
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: and done to this moment before even the first word
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: comes out of their mouths that night.
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: I heard you tell Plouffe on his podcast that one
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: thing that has stuck in your mind since the 2016
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: debates is Hillary Clinton in each one of those debates
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: scored way more points than Donald Trump, won those debates
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: if you look at the polls following those debates, but
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: that he was able to get something out of those
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: debates too by calling her a crook, having one message
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: that she was a crook and just driving that over
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: and over and over again. Obviously, Donald Trump has been
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: having a pretty difficult time trying to figure out what
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: his critique of Joe Biden actually is. Is that something
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: you guys are worrying about, planning for when it comes
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: to the debates? How do you think about making sure
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: that he doesn't get something like that out of these
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: debates like he did in 2016?
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: Well, I think that, you know, obviously trying to figure
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: out what Trump will do in the debates, we're obviously
• 57:41
  Speaker 3: talking about what we'll do in the debates. And, you know, look,
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: I think that, you know, He was able to bring
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: this attack on Clinton, a very unfair attack on Clinton,
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: with repetition and with just a relentless pursuit of this
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: unfair attack on her. But again, I think that the
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: times were different. And he was not an incumbent. And
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: he was a much harder target to hit than he
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: will be now in terms of having a record and
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: us being at a crisis point in the country. you know,
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: we'll let the debates play out. I'm obviously not gonna
• 58:19
  Speaker 3: sit here and explain our entire debate strategy on Pod Save.
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: You know, have to leave something for the post-debate episode
• 58:28
  Speaker 3: of Pod Save in October. But look, I think, but again,
• 58:32
  Speaker 3: I think that this contrast between the two of them,
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: how they've handled these crises, their respective characters, I think
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: that really shines true. And I also think that in
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: some ways, without at all underestimating Donald Trump. You know,
• 58:49
  Speaker 3: a lot of the shtick has kind of worn thin
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: at this point in time. And, you know, a lot
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: of the, you know, he uses the same stories over
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: and over again. You know, we're still on the snake
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: and the whole thing. And, you know, and I just,
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: I just, you know, I don't know that he can.
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: I mean, the challenge really isn't what does Joe Biden
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: do in some respects? It's does Donald Trump really have
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: anything to do on the debate stage that's new and
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: not just a repetition of all the old stuff? You know,
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: so we'll see.
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: Ron Klain, I'm glad you're running the show there. That
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: makes me feel a lot better. Thank you so much
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: for coming on and giving us the time. And please
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: come back.
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: Thanks, John. Thanks for having me as always.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: Thanks to Ron for joining us today. And we will
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: talk to you guys soon. Pod Save America is a
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: product of Crooked Media. The executive producer is Michael Martinez.
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: Our assistant producer is Jordan Waller. It's mixed and edited
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is our sound engineer. Thanks
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: to Tanya Somanator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou, Caroline Reston, and
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: Elisa Gutierrez for production support. And to our digital team,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: Elijah Cohn, Nar Melkonian, Yale Freed, and Milo Kim, who
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: film and upload these episodes as videos every week.