Latest / Skin Anarchy / Editor, writer and brand consultant Sarah Wu Interview

Transcript

Editor, writer and brand consultant Sarah Wu Interview · Skin Anarchy

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Diablo 4 has arrived.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: The force will help gather only us in their way.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Journey across the expanse of open world sanctuary.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Powerful classes for rest of the figure play style.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the four.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Available now.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't prevent your banner 55 episodes page to learn more.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: Hi guys, welcome back to another episode of Skincare Anarchy.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: I have an amazing guest for you guys today.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: Sarah Wu is an editor.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: She is a freelance writer.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: She's a senior contributor at Forbes magazine right now.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Sarah has worked with numerous publications and top brands.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: She is also a brand consultant and works with brands such as Glow Recipe and Oscar Delorenta and just and many, many more.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm so excited to introduce you guys to Sarah.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: Sarah, welcome to the show.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for coming on here and just speaking to us.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for that lovely intro and for having me on today.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: So can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: Just your background and your career history and stuff?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, of course.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: This is um this is not a short story.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: Because no, please tell us about it.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: I did not get into magazines the traditional way, but um it was around the mid-2000s.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you remember what the web like beauty blogs were like back then, but it was a very different kind of approach, I think, to right now, because I think people hadn't figured out yet that you could monetize this fully.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it was more almost a space kind of like Reddit is now where everyone was just on there to share their experience with beauty products.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I just got really into reading these beauty blogs because I just found it fascinating, the wealth of information that people were sharing out there.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I one day thought maybe I should start too, because you know, I had been commenting and I just found all of this really interesting, these things that I had never read into skincare before.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: People would really lay out the science and spend their free time swatching like this entire collection of lipsticks just to show you, you know, how it looks on different skin tones.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I wasn't seeing that everywhere.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought I kind of want to be part of this too, as a hobby, not for a job.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I randomly fell in with this crew of mostly Canadian beauty bloggers.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: I still don't know how that happened.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um but we were in this kind of network and and we would do all these challenges together and we would kind of do these series together.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I was really enjoying it.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: And some of them actually worked a bit on the editorial side too.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of how I, you know, got started also writing for publications, interning for publications.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: And even while all of this was going on, I kind of thought, well, this is what I'm doing now.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: But um my plan was always actually to go into academia and to go into art history, not not even an aspect of art history that was related to beauty in any way.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that was my plan.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I was doing the work and I I thought I I'll just do this for now.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: But eventually, you know, I want to apply for grants.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: I want to, I want to go get my PhD in art history and I I want to maybe teach even.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I remember when I was applying for these grants, um, one of the very early ones that I applied for, I was invited to interview with them.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: I got to this room, I had sent in my application and everything, and you know, they they wanted to talk to me.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: And they also knew I did um some work in beauty.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember realizing at that meeting that there, you know, I just felt it wasn't the space for me.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: There was, I remember very distinctly, there was this one man at the table who kept asking me, Well, do you know what this word means?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what this word means?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, why would I write this word if I why would I write it in an application if I don't know what it means?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and then got to the point where he straight out just said, Um, you know, you work in beauty, so how can you even consider yourself a feminist?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: And at that moment, I said, Okay, I'm gonna go work in beauty.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean wow, what an asshole, first of all.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's that's such BS.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry you had to deal with that.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, wow, look at where you're where you are now.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, oh my gosh, talk about proving them wrong.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's just funny because I I have a lot of friends who are in um, I would say the institutional academic side of art.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I know this is something they deal with, and I also know that there's a great community there that is pushing back against this and and you know, really not part of this at all.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: But in that moment, I thought I already kind of have this community in beauty.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: And when he said that, it really made me think if I go down this track, am I giving back?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really have this plan to give back in in academia, I guess in the same way that I was already set on that track in beauty.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: And at that point, you know, things were already taking off in beauty for me.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, okay, I I think I'm at the point where I have to choose one.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I chose beauty and I said, I'm just gonna go all the way with this.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I, you know, just continued just putting all my energy into it, writing, editing.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, eventually I ended up at Teen Vogue at a point where the magazine was really, really changing and pushing boundaries and allowing their editors to do a lot of things that I think I would not have been able to do anywhere else.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: This was um, I want to say four, four years, four or five years ago now.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, or was it I think so.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: I I really I lose track of time all the time.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: I lose track of time all the time.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: Someone literally asked me something about my medical um education.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, I don't remember when I did this.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think once you go in, you know, you don't you don't know when you're coming out.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I was there and it was a time when they kind of said, okay, we want to do something new and we want to do something different, and we're gonna give you a lot of free reign to do that.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: And over there, I was able to, for the first time, launch programming for um Asian American Pacific Heritage Month, which is really not something that the other conde brands had been doing on that scale or Team Vogue.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I got to, you know, run essays on colorism and double eyelid surgery and you know what it means to be Asian American or or Southeast Asian American from these voices.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: It was just really important for me at that point to expand coverage and to expand the number of writers telling their stories because I didn't want to see the same thing over and over again.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you have like I almost felt like magazines were ticking this box, like makeup tips for monoliths.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, we're done.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, no, no, this isn't the end of the story.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much more to explore here.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, that that's the whole point is to give writers that I think normally don't have this platform in these big media companies, give them this platform, let them tell their stories, and let's have a discussion about it.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that was something that was very special to me at Teen Vogue.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we also launched acne awards for the first time I was there, and we're really trying to talk about acne in a different way, talk about why is there this stigma around it when it's one of the most common medical conditions, actually.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's not something to be embarrassed about.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, you're not maybe going to be jumping for joy if you have cystic acne or breakouts, but let's also talk about, you know, the mental health effects of Accutane.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: Let's let's talk about, you know, treatment options from dermatologists.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Let's show this more in a more positive light.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I did a lot of that at Team Vogue, and it was a very special time in my career that I'm grateful for because I this was the time when I really got to do so many of the projects that had kind of been percolating.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I was always like, if I had the resources, if I had the readership, the platform, I would love to do this.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I got to do all of that there.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh wow.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: So that was amazing.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: That was really amazing.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, I I can't think of a better job than to be able to, you know, speak about something that you you are really, really passionate about and have a platform where people will see it.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: So that is truly, truly amazing.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I congratulate you on having that opportunity and and making the most of it.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's amazing.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: It was incredible.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I I was working with such talented colleagues that I'm still friends with today, and and I think we all really supported each other in there.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because the other thing that I think people really don't talk about enough about digital media is that we do this because we love it, but it is very hard to have a sustainable work-life balance in this industry because we were on around the clock, you know, when you're not talking about print media anymore, and print media is also it's a very, very hard job too.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: But with digital, you also have the news cycle to contend with.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it was just like from the second you wake up to the second you fall asleep, you're on your phone, you're checking for news on top of doing all this other stuff.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I did get to the point where I realized for my health, it just wasn't sustainable anymore.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought I've gotten to do all these amazing things, but you know, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if I'm if my health is suffering, you know, I can't put out this work if I if I'm not in a place to take care of myself.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that's when I never do things halfway.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I said, I'm gonna go back to freelance life, but I think I'm also going to pick up and move to a new country that you know I've never lived in before and just do everything from the beginning again.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that that is how I ended up in Germany.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: I just bought a one-way plane ticket here and I freelance now.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I write, I edit, I consult, um, I copyright, and I have a much better work-life balance these days.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: So that is the somewhat abridged version of my of my career background.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, that just sounds so awesome.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: And the fact that you just up and moved somewhere is like it hits me um to my core because that's literally what I've done my whole life too.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: And when we were speaking about that, I said, I think you'll understand this quite well.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, you know, and sometimes, and because you know, sometimes I I say this so many times to my friends that there are things that I want to do that I just can't do in this country.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: So, like I I found myself many times in the same position where I was going somewhere else just to like start fresh, clean slate, you know what I mean?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I totally get it.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: I totally get it.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: But wow, that's that's really amazing.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I I want to get your opinion though, because you know, this is the whole um Asian side of it, um, in terms of like educating people about different skin types, different, you know, shades of skin and what we need for different, you know, uh, I guess different ethnicities in terms of skincare or skin health.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's a very, very important topic.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: And right now in skincare, I'm seeing that it's coming up more and more and it's turning into like a trend.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what do you think about that?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think that there is a line.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I am always encouraged when I see brands talking about this more and brands opening up education and thinking about their consumers more and realizing that their consumers are not this one monolith.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: At the same time, I want to see something behind it.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I don't want to see this kind of empty trend that doesn't have any financial backing.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: And for example, you know, you saw a lot of brands pledge to diversify their feeds, for example, around the Black Lives Movement Matter this year.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: And already we're seeing data that, you know, there was this spike in the summer in terms of them talking about it, in terms of them diversifying their feeds.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of them have scaled back immensely since then.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I just don't really want to see that.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think if we're going to commit to this, we need to do it properly.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I also think that if brands are going to work with, you know, for example, organizations or they're going to work with content creators that are more diverse, pay them.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, back it up, put money behind it.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: And the resources are out there.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that if this is something important to you, which it should be important to every brand, yeah, you need to really, you need to pay people for their work.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: And you need to not just make it part of one campaign when it's trending on Instagram.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: You need to make it really a part of your brand long term because I think this is the only way that we move forward as an industry.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: And we're kind of in a moment right now where I'm seeing some brands losing steam with that.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I obviously don't want to see that.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's a moment right now where I think we really need to be careful about moving forward and not just making empty promises.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm oh, thank you so much for saying that.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: Seriously.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: Because when I remember when this whole BLM thing first started taking off, uh and you know, I have an influencer account as well, you know, and so because I love skincare, I'm not gonna lie.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: And um so, you know, it it it was like something I started with was the influencer account.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember posting that remember when everybody was doing that black box thing, like blackout Tuesday or something like that, right?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: But and kind of some of them kind of calling it a day after that, which yeah, I think was very rightfully called out.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: And and and the thing is when I posted on my personal feed, I remember saying this exactly what you said.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: I was echoing the same thing that, you know, in about a few days, all of our feeds are going to go back to normal, as if nothing happened.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: And that you're right, that's exactly what's going on.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, you know, it's skincare and like inclusivity cannot be a trend.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: It has to be a fundamental premise on which everything is founded in this industry, in my opinion.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I love what you said.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: I really, really agree with you on that.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right, because it's it's so important that for many of the consumers of these brands, and in fact, for many of the people who who power this industry, it's not a trend, it's everyday life.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: So there's just this disrespect, I think, that comes across when brands aren't following up.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: And and I really want more brands to do the 15% pledge.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: I want to see more, you know, mentorship programs and opportunities for young people of color who might want to go to because, you know, to be honest, um, working in beauty, it's hard financially because if you want an internship, you know, this is changing slowly, but I think a lot of the opportunities are are financially difficult and you block out a lot of the talent that could get to, you know, I I just want to see, I want to see more representation, not just, you know, at one level of the brand, but at the C-suite level.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is what we really need to talk about.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you don't have those voices at the table, nothing changes.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just a percentage.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: We need to talk about percentage at the leadership level.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly, 100%.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, also it's like it's not enough to just put like one person of color on your board and say, look, we're inclusive.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's totalism.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: So that's really not what's being happening right here.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: No, I I I completely agree with you.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I, you know, that's something I'm also seeing with brands is that you know they'll say, Well, look at us now.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: We have this amazing shade range.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you added five more colors of just, you know, dark brown.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: So you know what I mean.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I do also I I want to shout out, you know, brands that really do um, you know, back up what they say, though.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think there are brands out there, there are definitely editors out there, and there are many people that I work with out there that I see them really doing the work and leading the work, but I just think that we need more right now.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, so you know, just shifting focus a little bit, um, when you look at skincare and from your professional, you know, um eye looking at it, what do you look for in a good skincare product or beauty product?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what do you consider to be like something that really catches your attention?
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: I want to see clinicals always.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I want to see, you know, claims that don't sound inflated and claims that are not pseudoscience.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think in skincare, we we kind of have the same handful of ingredients that have been proven to work and and skincare brands still use, and it's just kind of the marketing copy that changes around them.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, you have niacinamide, you have vitamin C, you have retinoids.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so at that point, it's just you want to look at the formulation levels and the percentages and make sure, you know, they're in the range.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, if I see a brand say something like, you know, we formulate with the highest percentage possible, yeah.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I kind of think, okay, but that doesn't necessarily, you know, some ingredients you you go too high in the percentage, and that's actually not good.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I look a lot to make sure that they know what they're talking about.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I would say that the actives are stabilized, um, and that there's some testing behind it.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other thing I think, because science is one aspect of it, but I think the other aspect of beauty that I enjoy so much is that it's it's a self-care ritual and it's something fun.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I also just like it when products feel good to use, when there's that sensorial aspect, when they just make me happy to use.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I think those are the two main things.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: I I really like that you brought that last point up because you know what I was thinking the other day.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, why don't some beauty brands partner up with these like meditation apps?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: Because beauty and skincare is not just about, you know, putting something on your skin, like you said, you know, it's it's a whole ritual.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I know from my perspective as a working woman, I, you know, busy, I at night my 10 minutes of heaven, right?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's like I put on my product, I feel great.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: But I need to make more time.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: I need to make more time, but like it's it's uh is amazing, right?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's like it de-stresses you, it makes you feel good.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: But then I will go uh, you know, on top of that, what I consider to be my routine as well is I'll meditate for 15 minutes, you know what I mean, using an app I really like or some sort of, you know.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I think this whole self-care aspect um is you're right, it's not high, it's not highlighted enough.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: And to make this a more, you know, just a concerted effort where it's like, you know, you you have the um relaxation aspect.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, the skincare is there, but you know, that's only so much, right?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's it's like really about relaxing and and de stressing anything.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think some brands do it really well.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Glow recipe, for instance.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: They partnered with I think it was Mount Lai, and they had this whole uh they they do this series on their Instagram that's like self-care and facial massage and everything with their products.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I see some brands doing it.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: I love glow recipe.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you write for them too, right?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: You do write for them.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: No, I really love their brand and I love like how they're very, very, you know, just yeah, pro-self-care basically.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: So that's awesome.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so what are you what are some things that you are um you know working on that are like maybe like the future of beauty or something that's just really intriguing to you right now?
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like um, what are your current interests and your projects?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: To be honest, I think after you work in beauty for a certain time, and I I think I've heard this from some of your other podcast guests before, yeah, you start seeing like you've kind of seen everything already.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: And um, it's very rare that I see something that I'm like, oh, that's really new.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: But right now, I really love this range of um at-home devices that's coming out.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think some of them, some of them I'm a little skeptical of because I look at the the tech and the science, and I just don't think it's quite the same as the Derm's office.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: But um, for example, some of the microcurrent devices that came out recently, like the well, not that recently, but the new face, and then Ferreo recently did the bear, which was uh their their take on it with like the T-sonic massage at the same time.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: I really love these because I feel like they actually give a comparable experience at home and they give results that you can see, and there's science to back it up.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: So, in terms of skincare, that's what I'm excited to see.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: And in terms of makeup, I think because most of us have spent this whole year under a mask, yeah, yeah, there's not as much of that going on.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: But um, I don't know if you know Mianne Chan, the writer, she's done so many series about how she's actually been experimenting with her eye makeup in these times as a conversation starter almost, and she does the most amazing eye looks.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so sometimes I'm like, okay, I'm kind of inspired to go in that direction, and then I just get so lazy.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I also feel like I'm embracing colorful makeup more lately alongside skincare.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for me, what's most exciting about uh beauty right now is just the conversations people are having.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's a lot more conversation around nuance in skincare right now, formulation, and just trying to hold brands more accountable.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: So that that more than any product is what's exciting to me.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and I love that.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, what do you think about um the whole dermatologist um, you know, integration into the whole industry?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: What do you what are your thoughts about that?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: Because I know a lot of derms right now are out there on Instagram, they're really putting Great information, you know, out there for people to read and to understand and and kind of just understand skin health, you know, overall.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: What what's your opinion about about that?
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: I love it because some of my concern with um the skincare memes that you see on Instagram or the skincare TikToks you see is that uh there is a lot of misinformation circulating out there.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I just really love to see derms come on and just deliver a lot of this information for free, which is incredible of them.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: And to clear up some of the because the thing with social media in general is that you lose a lot of nuance if you have to cut what you're saying down to, you know, a single post or single video.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: And the same goes with derms, of course.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that at least to be able to have this resource on social media where so much of this conversation about skincare is going on is really incredible.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I especially, there's derms I follow, especially derms of color, who come on and and clear up, I think, a lot of myths surrounding skincare and a lot of misunderstanding surrounding skincare.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's an incredible resource right now, and and everyone should follow them if they can.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: Rather than you know, getting your information from some means circulating.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: I I just I see these skincare myths a lot, and I'm just like, that's not true.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: No, I follow the storm instead.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, here's here's the thing, and you know, this uh maybe a self-pitch, so excuse me for everyone listening, but that is my goal here at Skincare Anarchy.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's to combine perspectives in a way.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think that what you said is so on point because it is about opening up a conversation, it is about having everybody um have a seat at the table, you know, just let's just talk.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I think dermatologists are an integral part of that, right?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like we can't we can't ignore their their professional you know, feedback, their their medical advice, and you know, more also in terms of um not just dermatology, but even the chemists out there that want to come in, because I know there are a lot of chemistry um based accounts as well now, and I'm seeing that, but it's almost like I see them as like individual like entities, you know what I mean?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: They're just there and there's no integration at all happening.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's why I asked you that because from an editorial standpoint, how does that work?
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: If you want to make say you're writing a piece and you want to have a very research-heavy piece, you want you know, quotes from dermatologists, do you just reach out to them or do you like go onto Instagram and find some inspiration?
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what is the process of that?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: For derms and experts specifically, because I've been in the industry so long, I kind of have a roster.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of them have um PR representation, or they work with, you know, these uh skincare societies or or the um American Association of Dermatology, for example.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just go through them for the contacts.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I will say that um thanks to this new wave of dermatologists going on social media, I found new derms whose content I really like.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes if I see something on Instagram and I'm writing a piece and I need an expert, for example, say I need I'm writing something and I need a derm of color to comment on something, and I might remember something I saw on Instagram and think this was really, really great content.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, sometimes I'll just reach out to them that way.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I think this is it's just great to have more voices, as you said.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is always what we need in beauty and every industry in general.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: We need more representative voices, and I think social media is a great way to get those voices.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that these derms, you know, also are very busy, you know, they're they're at clinics, and so I really appreciate that they put out this content.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, me too.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm I'm very appreciative of anyone who's spreading information.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: I agree.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: I I just think that it's it's interesting to me because um, you know, a lot of the conversation in the influencer community is like, well, you know, uh no like there people aren't hearing us on the editorial side.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I I want to challenge that because I think that there are obviously editors and writers such as yourself that do hear, you know what I mean?
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: That you guys are aware of everything, like in terms of their the you know, the new research coming out, the new science-based products.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, where do you I mean, I'm really confused about that disconnect because you know, there's a lot of influencers right now that are just very, I don't know, it tainted in a way, you know, about the editorial they they don't know, I don't think they understand or they're not feeling as if that their concerns are being represented in beauty magazines or in you know publications.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what what are your thoughts on that?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I have immense uh respect for influencers as well.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I have friends who are influencers in the beauty and the fashion spaces, and I actually know editors who influence on the side as well, because yeah, you gotta you gotta make that money somehow.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I just think that again, it's it's a question of everyone.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think, especially right now with social media, everyone always loves to pit sort of groups against each other.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: And there is there was definitely tension.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, when especially when I remember blogs were first starting to come out between between print media and digital media and print and influencer, because it was just so much new happening at the time, and I think there was this uncertainty.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the day, I think we are all in it because we see something about this industry that we love, and we are all trying to provide our voice in the best way we know how.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Could there be more communication between everyone?
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think there could be, but um, I think we're still figuring out how to do that.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: And for me personally, because I think I work on multiple sides of it, I think there's it's always a plus to follow as many different perspectives as possible because you know, a lot of times you read magazines because you want a certain experience, and you follow influencers because you want a certain other experience, and it's not the same.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't think that we all need to, you know, be on the same page with everything.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think definitely there is value in both perspectives.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, at the end of the day, I follow people who I feel don't bullshit, and I follow people who I feel understand, you know, where we are at this point in the industry and and respect the diversity of voices and are just honest.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I whatever format that comes in, I'll take it.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: I agree with you.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's very interesting.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, I think right now, especially with the COVID environment, that's you know, everyone's at home, everyone's you know, um, doing a lot more like working from home stuff.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, from that perspective, I think the whole skincare industry and what products need to be, you know, marketed or you know, just written about, I think that's also changing.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, do you agree with that?
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: Or I mean yeah, absolutely.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of actually a lot of the brands that I work with, I talked with them and and skincare sales have actually been doing quite well this year because I think there is something about you know, when everything feels very wildly out of control, there is an instinct to kind of do the self-care, and and skincare is a very accessible way to do that, I think.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: So their sales have actually been doing pretty well this year.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but in terms of changes, there is this really interesting piece actually in Glamour by a writer, Deanna Pai, who is you should also have her on here if you have the chance to scrape.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: Please, Deanna, come on to the show.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: And she wrote a piece for Glamour about uh tweakments, which is kind of the the kind of changing face of injectables right now.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because with without, you know, there was definitely a trend for a while of fillers and and botox to kind of a more extreme Instagram face level.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: And what we've seen now since COVID began is that people, well, first you couldn't go to a derm's office for a long time, and they are also still figuring out, you know, how to implement safety measures in a lot of their practices.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: But now that people, some people are slowly starting to go back, what they're requesting is now more tiny, tiny um treatments that are a lot more subtle than they used to be.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: And the logic behind that is that things we we tend to have more video calls and things like that now.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: And these tweak months look a lot more suited to video, whereas the more extreme mod uh modifications were more suited to Instagram photos.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: I just found that very interesting because I'm also I I've written so much about injectables.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think I've stuck needles into every part of my face possible now.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: And this is like my thing.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: I get my most received messages on Instagram are always, always, always about Botox because I wrote this one story about um Mastodor Botox, and I get I had to make a highlight because I just got so many messages asking questions about that.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think injectables are definitely on the rise right now, but just the way the aesthetic that that people want and the way that we're talking about them now has changed this year, and I think will continue to change.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: I love that you you're bringing up Botox because I lit I literally just had a conversation with Dr.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: Natalia Spearings.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: She's one of my favorite dermatologists.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, she's based in the UK, and she was talking about a paper that recently she read about how there were these twins and they followed them.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: One was in Germany and the other one was in California.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: And the only skin treatments that both girls received were Botox.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so the the twin in Germany did not receive like a regular regimen of Botox injections, right?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: And then, but the one in California, every three months, she would go in and she would get it.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: And the actual, like, if you look at her aging, the aging between the two, because you know they're twins, so you can tell like where their frown lines are gonna be.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so they noticed that there was a huge difference in the upper face um area, which is where you usually administer Botox, um, in the in the person that was in California and even improved it, um, it even improved her texture, her skin texture.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm gonna be honest, I love injectables.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think there's still a stigma against them in certain certain countries.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: For example, for when I came here to Germany, a lot of the people around me were shocked when I said, you know, I get Botox or I get fillers.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas in New York, especially because I'm around beauty editors all the time in New York, it's it's a pretty commonplace thing.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I saw this derm also say, you know, like if if you are looking for certain results, like if you want to completely smooth out a wrinkle or a frown line, do not keep wasting money on topicals, you know, because there is a point where if this is the result you want, you need injectables.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's possible to go overboard.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: And exactly, and I think absolutely please, please go to a dermatologist or plastic surgeon and do not because you know, actually, a lot of people can administer Botox without having those qualifications.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it gets a little bit tricky there because the regulations state to state are so different.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: So that that is what I will say.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I think if these are the results that you want, just get the injectables, go to some do your research, go to someone who's qualified.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, don't go overboard.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: But I I think they're great solutions.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: I really do, especially hyaluronic acid fillers, yeah, really moisturize the skin in a way like from the inside out.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, my skin always looks amazing when I get them done.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I really miss my dermatologist in New York right now.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope I can.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you're gonna have to give me, you're gonna have to give me the number because I need it.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, absolutely.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I love that.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: I love that you said that because you know, this this um aspect of skin health.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: See, I put that in skin health more than anything.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna lie to you, because you know, skin care to me is a topical thing.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's something you put on the very surface of your skin.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, sometimes hopefully you get immediate results where you see a little bit of brightening and whatnot.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: But when it comes to real skin health and real changes in things like wrinkles and fine lines and textures, you have to go to a dermatologist.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I fear, I'm not gonna lie to you, Sarah, I fear the day where they do the at-home Botox thing.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: Just like they did with the at-home, you know what I mean?
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like the microneedling kits and stuff.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was just thinking of microneedling when you said that because I've just seen it go wrong so many times.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: I yeah, I think that the way that these regulations are enforced needs to be more uniform.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: And uh that that's what I would hope to see on that side.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, skincare, it's not there's this myth about skincare that good skincare is gonna work overnight.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: And there's no skincare product that's gonna work overnight.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: And if it does, I mean, if it does, it's probably we're talking about like an irritation or a bad reaction.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're looking for good results overnight, that's not what skincare is meant to do.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, in terms of like if you're looking more glowy or something like that, it it's it's particles, it's probably particles that reflect light in your skincare product, right?
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: And these things are not meant to provide instant results.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's what that's what injectables are, you know, that's what a lot of these in-office procedures are.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: So skincare is like maintenance more, but I I just think because we're now in a in an age where we want instant gratification, the the language about how we talk about skincare has changed to the point where you know you now have these products that are like erase wrinkles overnight.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, no.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, it's not gonna happen.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: I keep beating a dead horse with this anti-aging, like hate that I have for that word because it's like, you know, you can't stop aging.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how many times people need to be told this.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you cannot stop aging.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: So if a product is promising you anti-aging, it's lying to you.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like this, that there's no such thing.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so the marketing, I think the word the verbiage has to be changed, right?
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's like um start, we need to start using terms that are just more, I think, scientifically and medically relevant rather than not, especially when you're talking about something like aging, because that's a medical phenomenon.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, going back to what you said about overnight results, there's not no medication, you know, you can't go even a doctor cannot prescribe you a medication that's gonna work overnight.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: So to respect that from like a you know what I mean, like an over-the-counter skincare product is completely just it's absurd.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's funny that you bring that up with anti-aging.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: I was actually uh working at Teen Vogue at the time that Philip Picardi was heading digital for Teen Vogue Allure in them.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: And um, this is when they had actually implemented uh that they would strike that word anti-aging from from coverage.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you know, this was I I like the idea behind it, but I think just the way we talk about these products still, though, it's just setting up expectations that are not realistic.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: And there are a couple brands because I've also done work with um Electra Health that runs menopause.com.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: And through this, I I also found some other brands that are now talking about aging in a way that I think is more in the right direction.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: There's a brand called Pausewell Aging, and everything is sort of designed in mind with, you know, because there are hormonal changes that your skin goes through as you enter menopause.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: And rather than saying, oh, you know, it's age, it's it's like this this number that suddenly happens, and then you know, you have wrinkles and whatever.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think they're really digging deep into the science behind how these hormonal changes impact your body, you know, what the treatment is, but not saying, okay, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna turn back time now because that's not that's not how it works.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna look into that brand actually.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: I've never heard of it.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'll send you, I'll send you all the information later.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, please.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so okay, so let me ask you this because I have to know what is in your um skincare routine right now.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: What are you using?
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh god, it's a lot of products.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: The thing is, I I test a lot.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm always testing something for a story.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: And for the record, for everyone listening, this is not an approach that I would ever recommend.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: That you you should just if something works for you, please stick with it and don't try, you know, don't throw like 10 things at your skin all the time.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't do it.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like if this wasn't my job, I think I would have a much smaller routine and more streamlined.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: But just because I'm always trying to test the most things possible, my routine ends up being like 15 steps long.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I wouldn't necessarily recommend that, but um, I would staples the staples that I've used for years that I stick with are um Tatcha's Camellia cleansing oil.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: I always use that to take my makeup off because I don't I don't like makeup wipes and I don't like the sort of tugging and pulling at the skin around your eyes.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I use that cleansing oil.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really into this brand from Korea right now called Medicube.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: They have really, really great, especially collagen-boosting uh line, and I love that one.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: Let me see what else.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm looking around my desk at like a small mountain of product on here right now.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Tatcha has a sunscreen, also that's really, really fantastic.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, the blue one, the blue bottle, yes.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, that's my favorite.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: I remember when they came out with it because Tatcha is one of those brands I've worked with since they launched.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's been close to a decade now.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: It was like two people in the basement making blotting papers, and that's when I first came across them.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then they started doing skincare.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember when that sunscreen came out, because I used to buy all my sunscreen from Taiwan because I felt like the formulations there were so much better.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: And this was the first, this was when sunscreen in the US, I think, started feeling more like skincare and less because you know, I think there was definitely a period where every single sunscreen on the market would give white cast.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, that's not as much of an issue.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, for people of color, it's like I don't I don't want to use something that makes my skin look purple or like makes my skin look ashy.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: And slowly, I think around this time you started seeing more brands being like, oh, you know, maybe we should think about that because not all of our consumers have the same skin tone.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I do really love that sunscreen.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I have a bunch of Renee Roulot products, she's an amazing aesthetician, and she has this acne mask I really like, and a moisture toner that I'm using right now, vitamin C treatment.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm using some retinoid from Kate Somerville right now.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's fantastic, yeah.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then I have my forreo bear that I use every day.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I ran out of the conductor gel, so I actually have this giant tub of like ultrasound serum on my desk that I used with that because you need the conductive polymers, right?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what I'm using.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, I think that's the that's the abridged version.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: There is more, but yeah, it's always changing.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's the editor skincare routine that yeah, I would say so.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's amazing.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_02: Those are some really cool products.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna have to check some of that out.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't heard of uh a few of them, so that's pretty cool.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's always always more coming out in skincare.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: So some of it is uh not good, but some of it is good.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it I think weeding through that and finding finding the products that are worth keeping around is always enjoyable.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you, Sarah, so much.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: This has been such a wonderful experience.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: I love talking to you.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I had a great time chatting as well.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: I would love to have you back on, honestly.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, just to talk, you know, see how you're doing and stuff.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: Email me anytime.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome, awesome.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well, thank you guys so much for listening.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: I hope you enjoyed this episode.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if you have any comments or questions for myself or Sarah, just leave them in the um the podcast cover art, which we post on Instagram.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_02: Please don't forget to follow us on all the major platforms.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_02: We are on seven different platforms at this point: Spotify, Google Podcasts, iTunes.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_02: Give us a follow.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, also give us some feedback, rate us if you can, and we will be back with another episode.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, guys.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: Please make sure to hit subscribe if you're tuning in to us on any podcast platform.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: We are available on so many different platforms.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_02: So wherever it is that you're tuning in, just go hit subscribe.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: You will be immediately notified when we publish new episodes.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: This way, you're able to tune in to amazing insights from experts, brand founders, industry leaders, authors, all the wonderful people that we host.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_02: And that's very important for me because I love to hear from you guys and really understand what you love and what you want to hear more of.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_02: Also, make sure to give us a follow on all of our social media outlets.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: We're available on Instagram, TikTok, X, you name it, we're there.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: We also have a blog on Medium.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're a reader and you love Medium blogs, check us out on Medium.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: We publish some really great articles on there that do deeper dives than just what's available on the podcast.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: And it's really a great place for all of you science geeks out there that want to learn a little bit more.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: We go above and beyond with our research and making sure we're bringing you information that you usually probably won't hear about in other outlets.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: So check us out, leave us a comment, leave us a review, and we'll be back next time with another episode.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.