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Grace is not weak · Intentional Guy

• Brett Knight: I'm telling you, Michael, we could have an entire episode on what you just touched on, which is The shame and the hidden nature of sin when it comes to things like pornography. drug addictions, very similar as well, alcohol abuse, similar as well. But there's probably not a more impactful in men's lives thing than shame. And and I I say because I work so often in the world of recovery, I'll I say this and I mean it. I believe more people die from shame in d in the recovery community than die from overdoses. Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Brett Knight: And people say, well, how can you die from shame? Because it's shame that keeps you from reaching out for help. It's shame that keeps you from saying, I've relapsed. It's shame that keeps you from saying, I'm tempted in this area of my life. It's shame that keeps you from reaching out to a brother or to heaven itself. and and I believe that shame, you know, and of course the we we are told in the Bible the antidote to shame is to expose things to the light. and that's part, I'm not saying, you know, get on social media and announce every you know, wretched sin that you've ever committed in life. But I'm saying that there comes a point where you need to reveal it to your father. And and there may come a point where you need to reveal it to trusted individuals to join you in prayer. There's power in confession, there's power in prayer, and there's power in repentance. And we know that those all bind together. But that concept of shame, especially among men, now look, a lot of these ladies have got it figured out. Not all, but a lot of these ladies have got it figured out. They can get together with somebody who they just met fifteen minutes ago and they're sharing their deepest, darkest secrets. And, you Michael Chestnut: That's my wife. Brett Knight: know, I felt this way at fourteen years old and I had men were like, How you doing? Good. Okay, move on to the next part. I mean, that's it. We we create this like iron, you know, you know, shield Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Brett Knight: around our hearts and around our our feelings. And, you know, you have to have a we have to have some trusted people in which we, you know, feel comfortable talking about it, because that's how you defeat it. You expose it to the light Michael Chestnut: There's an old story about a father who sees his son coming home from a long way off. And before the boy can even get the words out, before he can say he's sorry, the father is already running to him. Doesn't wait for him to clean up first, doesn't wait for an apology. The kind of grace is not just a story to my next guest. He spent his whole career standing where most of us never do in two rooms at once, a courtroom. Where the law does exactly what it's built to do, and a church where he's watched the same kind of running, that same kind of grace reach men who figure they're already gone too far to come home. So Brett Knight, welcome to the show today. Brett Knight: Hey, thank you very much, Michael. I'm glad to be here. I'm glad to get a chance to speak with you and speak with your audience. and and you know, I'm I'm already fired up and excited just you know, just a few seconds, you know, before we were able to come on, you and I were able to catch up just for a few seconds and and I'm already fired up about the conversation that we're gonna have today because I I believe that your audience is gonna walk away feeling more hope in them. Michael Chestnut: Well, and I hope so. And I think you bring a perspective to us today 'cause you're coming you're I mean, you're working in the courtroom and then you're also working in the church. And those two worlds don't necessarily always see eye to eye, do they? Brett Knight: No, they do not. and and in fact it's there's a lot of times people look at me and they say, How can you be a criminal defense attorney and a pastor at the same time? How can those two just don't seem to to mix? And it and it's a great invitation for me to begin talking about the gospel and to be talking about grace because I think they match perfectly. And I and I often say, Well, well, you know, as a criminal defense attorney, I'm gonna oftentimes encounter people on their worst days. And you know what? And sometimes they've made mistakes. And and there's consequences to mistakes. That's just the natural order of things. And so that's where I meet a lot of these men is when they are at this kind of low point. They're in this 10 foot hole. And then I get to walk with them through and I get to stand beside them and be their advocate. I get to help defend them. I get to help put in the rearview mirror possibly a mistake that they've made so that they can focus on their future. And I often say, you know, when I'm driving in my truck here in in the middle of Tennessee where I live at, You know, I've got this big old windshield, right? And I got this little bitty rear view mirror. And that's kind of how I live life. And that and that's how I'm often encouraging these men that I encounter in the courtrooms is that look, we're trying to take this event and we're trying to move it from the big, you know, windshield and we're trying to put it in that little rear view mirror behind you. And so being able to move and and go forward and and then I'll get people nodding their heads, say, Yeah, that sounds like what a criminal defense attorney does. And then I'll say, Doesn't that sound like God's grace too? Doesn't Michael Chestnut: Mm. Brett Knight: that sound like how God looks at us and says, let's move on? You know, my grace is sufficient. I've covered this. And and I'm, I want to move you to this purpose. I want to move you to this calling, the reason that I created you. And so isn't that what ministry work is? And don't they sound a little bit alike when you begin to see it that way? Michael Chestnut: Yeah, because I think a lot of people want to remove consequences with grace, right? And Brett Knight: Yes. Michael Chestnut: and the truth is, that now can that happen? Yes, my God can do all sorts of different things, right? But reality is you can still have grace and people are still having to suffer the consequences of their actions. And to me, that's also where the growth comes from too, is from the consequences because without the consequences, sometimes change can be superficial. You gotta feel the burn. Brett Knight: Abs Absolutely. Well, and and it's the gospel. It's the gospel message. It's the redemptive story. It's it's every bit of the Bible from the third chapter of the book of Genesis where, you know, Adam and Eve are in the garden and the serpent is tempting from that point forward to the end of the book of Revelation when when Jesus comes triumphant. I mean, all in between there is a story of us messing up, us having consequences for our actions. And a God who brings grace to cover and to redeem us even in the midst of the consequences of our own actions. And yes, absolutely. you know, we we get this extremes on both sides. We get some people who say, you know what, accountability, accountability, we should just punish people. And I'm gonna tell you, Michael, I'm I'm gonna confess here. I had a good preacher friend of mine taught me years ago. He said, Confession is good for the soul, though hard on the reputation. So I'll I'll conf Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Brett Knight: I'll confess here that that used to be me. That used to be me. You see, I'm a criminal defense attorney now and I have been in, you know, my own private practice for 11 years. But prior to that, I was a prosecutor for the state of Tennessee where I prosecuted people for criminal conduct. Michael Chestnut: Mm. Brett Knight: And and I truly believed, truly believed that if you punish people hard enough, they would change the decisions that they were making. And that's how you fix people. That that was my true kind of simplistic belief. And I bel I think there are a lot of people who still believe that. You know, I was working primarily in drug task force and things of that nature, wiretaps and complex cases against drugs in our community. And we have a bad drug drug problem here in our in our community, and and just like everywhere else across the country and the world. But I was really trying to fix that problem by punishing people harder and harder. But I realized that it wasn't making the impact that I thought it would because we kept seeing the same thing over and over and over. And I had to get to the point where I understood what how grace played into this, how accountability and boundaries and and things of that nature played in. And it became more complex, but I actually got to see that the real issues underlying the pain that was underlying drug addiction that was under Often the reason people were trying to numb that. I had to begin addressing that. And the in the punishment could never heal the pain. Punishment's good at changing behavior, but it doesn't do anything for healing. And so that's where grace comes in, and that's where the presence of God comes in, is that that healing ability. Because in the end of the day, you can hold people accountable for what they've done, but but punishment alone, it can't heal the pain. That's helped drive somebody to the place where they are at that moment. Grace and accountability is they're not opposites. That's where we get to the extreme. Because some people on the grace side just think, well, it doesn't matter what you do, let's just all cover by grace, and let sin abound. but that's not Michael Chestnut: Right. Brett Knight: correct either. You know, grace and accountability, they're not opposites. They're actually complementary to each other. Grace gives accountability someplace redemptive to land. I say that a lot. And and what I mean by that is grace is what the redemptive power of consequences only begins to redeem us when we've put grace into the mix with it. Michael Chestnut: Mm. Well, you know, and I think I think part of the problem too is a lot of people misunderstand the meaning of the word grace. and that what you just touched on it a minute ago, we should just forgive everything, forget everything and and go on. And to me too, i mercy and grace, the lines are are blurry these days on that Grace's acceptance, Grace's believing everything you hear. I I just it's gotten messed up to the fact we were talking about masculinity before you came on here, that Brett Knight: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: men you you got both sides of the coin. You got men who think grace is more effeminate and you know, if I have grace on someone, I'm not, you know, whatever. And then you've got it the other way too, where you feel like to be a man in today's world, you have to be very forgiving, very or forgetful of what everyone's doing and show acceptance for everything that comes your way. I and I just don't I think being a that masculinity is walking strong in your faith, but you have to understand what grace. really looks like and then like you said, have a balance of how do you apply this? Brett Knight: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And and I think for men in particular, it it becomes complicated because of even in churches, and I'm not talking about any specific church, I'm saying churches in general. And I get to travel to lots of churches and speak in lots of churches and and and be involved with a lot of things. But for a lot of men, they walk into a church and and and if they're if they're masculine men, the men and I don't mean that in a toxic way. I mean that in the way of the way God designed us to be, the way the the person he designed us to be, we walk into churches and we don't find anything familiar for us. We we see things that are highly emotional driven and and and very effeminate in the sense of how things are conducted. And then the churches often say, well, well, Brett, why why can't we get more men involved? I'm like, well, you haven't made them feel very welcome here in the sense of being who they truly are. You've asked them to either change their masculinity and their masculine nature And exchange that for a more feminine nature, or else they don't really fit in here. And and and that is it it begins with, and I think you've hit the nail on the head, it begins with understanding grace. Because we don't throw grace out the window, but we don't apply it in a way that's contrary to the way the Bible teaches it and the way that that we as men should be. And and accountability, accountability asks us to face what we've done. And there it should never We should never lose sight of that. And in some places in our world, it's become very unpopular, that you know, we should be accountable and face what we've done. you know, any person who's ever walked through like a 12-step program or understands the steps within a 12-step program, they understand that there is a point where you face the consequences or you face the actions and you're accountable to the things that you've done in your in your past. And there's something very healthy about that, about moving forward. But grace reminds us that what we've done it it does not tell us who we are. And that's where grace comes in. Accountability is taking responsibility for what I've done. But grace being applied says, but that's not who you are. That's not who you are. You're not your worst mistake. You're not that moment where you did something that you look back on and wish wish you hadn't. You're not the things that you've moved on from. And that's grace. You've you're accountable for your actions, but grace says that's not who you are. Your identity is not found in your mistakes. Your identity is found in Christ Jesus and what He has called you to do and the purpose that He has called you for. That's grace. And I'm just gonna tell you, that is masculine. That is power. That is what that is a man's road to go. I own it. I own the mistakes that I've made. I've owned that I lost my temper today with my wife and and and was harsher and more sharp than I should have been with her. I own that. And Grace is saying, but you're not, that's not who you are. That was just an action that you just did. You are all these things that the Bible says that you are. And and then that gives you the power and it gives you the freedom to then walk back into that and say, you know what, honey, I lost my temper this morning and it wrote that wasn't about you at all. And I apologize and and I shouldn't I shouldn't talk to you that way. That's what happens when you take both accountability and you understand that grace does not say that's who you are. Because without grace, without that identity, that higher calling that God calls us to as men, there's no reason to go back and fix things. This is just Michael Chestnut: Right. Brett Knight: who I am. This is this is who my dad was. This is who I am. There's no reason to fix it. I I can't change it. This is just who I am. That's what it looks like when a man doesn't have grace in his life. Michael Chestnut: Wow. And and I you said that really well because I think we get stuck a lot of times in what w our past actions were. And we allow that to create our identity. And then, you know, we might have grown up with that too, right? We might have grown up always being told what was wrong with you, that you'll not amount to anything and All just those words haunt us, and we've been trained and raised, and then they become a part of us. And we just take that. And I know for me, I was that guy that thought I felt like I was the exception. I needed to be punished more than anybody else. Brett Knight: Yeah, yeah. Michael Chestnut: I was the exception to the rules that God for God's grace. And it really took Being accountable was easier for me than accepting grace because with a Brett Knight: Yeah. I think for men it oftentimes is. Well, we can we can bear the load of accountability sometimes, but to allow to allow God to take that load off of us, that's hard. That's hard. Michael Chestnut: Man, and it it's for me it was almost impossible to do. What is something that you could tell us you probably got stories on g a number of stories that you could share with us, but what is something that you could help a guy who maybe is stuck? You know, we're not that last that worst moment in our our life. and how do you Brett Knight: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Michael Chestnut: get unstuck? Brett Knight: yeah, exactly. And and the key to being unstuck the key to being unstuck is to quit moving, first of all, in the direction that you're going, recognizing that I've had this conversation more than a hundred times. I that I'll say to somebody who maybe they were in they're either in my in my conference room because they have some criminal charges and I'm they're asking me to represent them or they're in my living room because they're having problems with their marriage or or other things. And I'll often listen at first where they are. And then I'll say, can we agree you're in a hole? You're in a hole. You're in a 10 foot hole. And they'll say, yeah, you know, I'm in a I'm in a hole. And I'll say, great. Good news for you. I'm a professional ladder builder. I know how to help get people out of holes. So this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to jump in that hole. We're going to get some resources thrown down to us from up top. We're going to take those resources and turn them into a ladder and then we're going to climb out. And along the way, other people who've gotten out of this hole in the past, they're going to give you advice on how to climb that ladder to get to the top. So it's not just me and you in this hole. There's other people at the top of that hole that are giving us advice and telling you how to climb that ladder. I said, but first step is this, put down the shovel. Put down Michael Chestnut: Mm. Brett Knight: the shovel because we're in a 10-foot hole and I'm going to build a 10-foot ladder. If you keep digging, we're going to be in a 20-foot hole with a 10-foot ladder. And so the first step that we do is we stop. We stop whatever it is that we're doing. And then we begin surrounding ourselves. And if you listen to what I just said in that little analogy, we begin to surround ourselves by people who can hold us accountable, who can help us, who who have resources available, who can guide us through a path of steps to to get out of out of that hole. But that's the the first step. And I I think of examples and and just in July I did a calculation in my office, and this is just in my law practice, not in my ministry or outside in the community, but I did a calculation and I had assisted in five years, in the last five years, I had assisted 187 people getting out of the court system or jail and into long-term recovery. So I've walked this walk with literally hundreds of men and women. And and so You know, I think of an example of a of a young man, and he I say young man, I'm I'm fifty-four years old, but this this young man was in his mid-20s and he was incarcerated and he had some charges and he had a an addiction problem and he recognized it and he knew he needed help. but there's a lot of legal hurdle hurdles to go through. And in fact, at one point during his incarceration, he got panicked and he tried to run out of a courtroom, you know, and they had to drag him back in and and all of this. And it was really, Michael Chestnut: Never a good idea. Brett Knight: no, it's not a good idea. That doesn't make a good impression on the judges or anybody else. but in the end, I got this young man into recovery. Now I was able to also be a part and to be one of the the people that walked with him shoulder to shoulder through this. So for the next year. I got to walk with him a lot of the steps through. And it wasn't easy for him. It w it was hard for him to understand that he was worthy, that he was worthy of all this attention, that he was worthy of being you know, getting himself on a on a correct path, that he was worthy to be loved by by a a woman. He had a fiance at the time and and so there was a lot that was going on in this man's life. But over the course of a year, I watched this amazing transformation begin to take place. But but even then when he got out, it wasn't over. Right. He still had to, you know, reintegrate back into the workforce and and circles of friends and housing and and and he you know, hit they they had a new baby that was born not too long after he was out. So, you know, so he had a lot of life challenges and I was able to continue walking with him through it. But I'll tell you how so transformed this was. When I met this man, he was in jail. And grace began to peel away layer after layer off of this man to reveal who he was called to be and that he was worthy, he was called by God to be this person, this man of a home, this man who leads a home, this man who leads his wife and now his young child, this man who's in the community, this man who's working in in a workplace. when he and his wife had their baby, they had it scheduled, and on their way to the hospital. she insisted that they stop by my law office on the way to the hospital to have a baby because she wanted me to pray. So she went in the office and and they a she asked for me and I and I was still in court. And my assistant, she said, Well, he's still in court. And she's like, Well, I wanted him to pray over me before I went to the hospital to have this child. and my assistant's like, I'll pray over you. I I got this handled. We don't, we don't have to have him. But That is the transformative power, this man who didn't trust people, who didn't trust that he deserved anything. He was willing to take the punishment, the accountability, but he struggled with that grace. But yet here this man is now walking with the Lord in power, taking on the responsibility of a man in his home and in his community, in his workplace. And it's just wonderful to see. And that's just one example of how we can do this. I challenged him about halfway through his walk, and I've challenged lots of men and women along the way. And sometimes I can be very hard. I mean, I can be very direct person. But sometimes we need that, like that splash of cold water. And so when I get somebody who's particularly persistent and saying, Well, I just don't deserve that, and you just don't know what I've done, and you just don't you just don't understand, I have two two statements. First is when somebody says to me, You just don't know what I've done, Pastor. You just, you don't know. You wouldn't, you wouldn't think that I was going to be forgiven so easily if you knew what I did. And I always stop them. I never ask them what they've done. I don't, I don't, don't fall into that. I say, Well, let me ask you a question. And I'm like dead serious. I'll say, Have you ever gone into a church, drug women and children out and killed them? And they'll look at me with the strangest look on their face and they'll say, Well, no. I'm like, Well, you're fine then because the apostle Paul did that. And he was still used by God. So I know. I know you're not beyond the limit if you haven't done that. And then so I always use that as my my example. And and then when it comes to the identity that they're walking in, and when they want to say, I just don't know that I'm blessed and highly favored, I just don't know that I'm called to be this. And I'll stop and say, Do you think you know more than God does? Because really what you're saying right now is God's word says that you are these things. And you're telling me that you don't believe that you believe you know more than God does. If God has called you that you are these things, man of God, then you are these things. And you need to recognize that your belief that you're not worthy of it is not from God. And so that's a stronghold we need to tear down because you are, that's how I read my Bible. You are the things that God says that you are. And to think otherwise is to say, I know more about me than God does. And I promise we don't. We don't. When he's called us to these higher purposes, when he's called us to these things and to accomplish these mighty tasks as men, he knows that we are both capable of doing that with his help and his provisioning, and that we are supposed to do that. and so that's my encouragement to men. Regardless of what you have done, you have not gone too far. And regardless of that little whispering in your ear that you're not good enough. to achieve the calling that God says he has called you to. God knows better. He knows better and and we just need to lean into that. Michael Chestnut: Man, and I listening to you, I I caught a few things. One, first off, men, this is so foreign for us to apply to ourselves, right? Especially learned behaviors are are so hard to change. but we're not the sum of who we are. But it requires action to get out of it. And like you said, you got to stop digging first, right? But I think one of the most powerful parts is you need someone to jump in that hole with you. and allow them to help Brett Knight: That's right. Michael Chestnut: you. And one of the most powerful things that I found in my journey was when I finally started trusting someone else and realizing I can't do this alone. And and and not trusted blindly. I let God bring the right person into my life, right? And then it's been through the men I've placed in my life that then this whole world that I How I saw myself started changing because I started surrounding Brett Knight: Yeah, absolutely. Michael Chestnut: myself with the right guys. And I told you earlier, before we started, I worked out of prison as a transition teacher. And I would see guys come in, and one guy he come in, you remember me? I've I've taken your class twice. Well, if you've taken my class twice, that Brett Knight: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: means you've gotten released from prison twice. And so now you're going back out the third time. What are you doing wrong? Every time he'd leave prison, he'd go right back to the same place he he got in trouble at, hang around with the same people who he Brett Knight: Yeah, come on. Michael Chestnut: got in trouble with, and he changed nothing, and he just kept doing it. And I were saying, So do you think now you might be ready to change some of those things? And it was like a light bulb came on him, and you know, he was happening to do the calculation in his head. Is this man right? We keep doing these same things over and over again. And for me, it was trusting, putting the right people in my life, other men in my life that emulated what I was looking for, that had the same goals, the same things, even things that were very foreign to me that I didn't think I could do. Right. Like I'll be honest with you, one of them is being the spiritual leader of my house. I feel so unqualified for that. And the enemy has my ear, right? But I have men in my life who know that, and they challenge me on that, and they encourage me on that, so that, you know, I don't believe the lie that is being whispered to me that I'm not the spiritual leader of my house. Brett Knight: Come on, that's right. Michael Chestnut: You know, and I've got them saying then the other Mike, don't listen to that lie, because you have been called by Brett Knight: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: God to do that. Brett Knight: Man, I I hope somebody out there just hearing what you just said. Cause that's that is that is it. That's the that's the key. We've got to surround ourselves by godly men. We've got to, you know, I I often say and I I read this and I know it's true, we are the average of the five people we spend the most time with. Choose your circle wisely. It is it is one of the number it's one of the top three things when people integrate back into the community that will be a stumbling block for them. And and that's that's key. And and you know, even like in my analogy of the person in the hole and the ladder and the that I've used so many times, oftentimes when when men and women at the at the end of like say they've been in a year long recovery program and I've walked with them this whole year, I always wait to the end, to like when they're graduating and I say, You remember that story when I told you about being in the hole? And they're like, Yeah, yeah, I remember that. And we built a ladder. I said, That's right. I said, Now your role has changed. You need to be one of the men at the top of that hole. handing down the supplies and giving the advice Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Brett Knight: on how to walk up the ladder. And eventually you need to get to a place where you're jumping into the hole. Because I'm about building an army. I'm about building an army of people to go and to rescue people out of burning fires, you know, and and pull out just one more. And in order to do that, I need good men at the top of this hole who are handing down resources, who are handing down advice, who are telling that man how to climb that ladder. and That needs to be you now because I have seen a correlation between when men, especially men have gone through recovery and through active addiction, and they and they moved on beyond that, that if you stay active involved in helping someone else, you will stay on the right path. And oftentimes if you don't, if you walk away from the meetings, the groups, the people, the opportunity to help a brother who is maybe where you were at one day. that you the ability to slip is so much easier. So becoming involved and not just surrounding yourself with good godly men, but also being one of those good godly men. Being one of those Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Brett Knight: men who carries their friend on a blanket and tears the roof off of a house and lowers them down to the presence Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Brett Knight: of Jesus, you know, that's the kind of men I want to be around with are like, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna tear a roof off of a house if we need to, you know, we're gonna get this done. Those are the men Michael Chestnut: Yep. Brett Knight: that I like to be around. Michael Chestnut: Yep. And you know what I learned what it took to be to be that man was to make a choice to be him. Was to make Brett Knight: Yeah. Yes. Michael Chestnut: the choice, say, okay, I'm gonna do because we're already telling you guys how to do this, how we did it, right? So now it's just a matter of, okay, I need to go find my five. I need to go find those because I I Brett Knight: There you go. Michael Chestnut: teach that all the time. My coach men and it's like you're the sum of the five people you hang hang with, right? And I love what you just said. Brett Knight: You have to be intentional. I love the the the name of your podcast because that word intentional has just been everywhere in my ministry the last several weeks. But you have to be intentional. You can't just randomly let the world just slide five people to you and be like, well, these are the guys I happen to work next to, or these are the guys I went to high school with, or or whatever. I'm like, no, I'm I'm intentional. I'm prayerful. I'm saying, Lord. expose to me who my five men are and and and separate me from the ones that aren't. Don't let distract me. There, you know, years Michael Chestnut: Yes. Brett Knight: ago I read a management book and the one of the concepts within it was that good is the enemy of great. And the idea was that sometimes good things can just simply distract us from great things. And so sometimes we have to pray, look, Lord, I know that's a good guy, but he may not be one of my great guys. He may not be one of my mighty warriors. He may not be, you know, one of those people. And so let me know the difference between them and then and focus your time on those great men that that you're surrounding yourself Michael Chestnut: Yep. Brett Knight: with. Michael Chestnut: I agree. I I I'm you have to rely on the supernatural power of God sometimes in your life to lead you, right? Or where's your faith if you don't do that? And Brett Knight: That's right. That's right. Michael Chestnut: I I can't sit here. I don't know your heart. I don't know the man next to my heart. And it's funny, the men who God has placed in my life who have had the most impact on my life are not men I would have chosen. You know? I hate to Brett Knight: Yeah. Yeah. Michael Chestnut: I'm from Chicago. Brett Knight: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: I'm the I was this preacher kid, and one of my best friends is this guy from California who w was raised up in a gang. Tough dude, all this stuff. He was the I was a guy he stuck in a locker after giving a wedgie at school. And now me and him are our best friends, and we hold each other's ladders for each other. So Brett Knight: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: it's amazing that God brought Who God puts in my life, it's never who I do. So what I what Brett Knight: No. Michael Chestnut: I've learned is that my choices are not always God's choices. So Brett Knight: No. I think I think I think as men, we've all we all understand that. My choices are not the best choices, not spiritually. They may satisfy the fleshly desire or Michael Chestnut: Uh-huh. Brett Knight: or or a level of comfort, but every man who's ever lifted a weight or ran knows that we do not develop muscles and comfort. We do not develop muscles and comfort. We have to stretch and tear, and then what gets rebuilt back is stronger. And that's how we as men have to be spiritually as well. And and I'll also add to your your your thought of, you know, it's not always who I would choose. God places people in my path, the people in my inner circle, they're very different from me. Just just like what you had described. They're I would often look, we all like people who are like us. We really do. Because they're like a mirror of us. And we I mean we don't like anybody better than we like ourselves. I mean, Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Brett Knight: truth be told. You know, so we look around and it's easy to create an echo chambers. Where everything I say is just being repeated right back to me. Every decision I make is being repeated back to me. well, that's not the kind of accountability that that makes us grow because we have to get out of that comfort and we have to be challenged. We have to have those people who are bold enough to stand up and say, No, I don't know about that, bro. You've been acting a little bit strange lately. What's going on with you? And when I say, no, I'm fine, they don't take that as an answer. but those men often look very different, different backgrounds, different personalities, you know. different age groups, you know. So I I would challenge the men in your audience to, you know, take a good intentional look at your closest people and and prayerfully seek the Lord in discernment to understand, you know, these may be great people. It's not a it's not a critique of the people to say, God's calling other kinds of people into my life. These are the people that are meant to change you and challenge you and to make you grow towards your purpose. So They're not always just good guys. You know, sometimes they can be a little rough around the edges. And in fact, for me, I'll just tell you, I I'm a hard person to confront at times. I'm a lawyer, I'm a city judge, I'm a pastor. you know, there's a lot of people that when they first meet me, they don't really want to disagree with me. I mean, that it it takes a level of boldness to be able to pull me aside and say, Hey, I think you're off on this. I think you need to do this. I'm I'm And and so I need those bold men around me. I need those men that that, you know, that they'll pull me aside, you know, because if they don't, and and here's the the other thing I'll add to that, and it's it's the other side of the coin. Just because other people have an opinion of you and what you should be doing does not mean you have to entertain it. If they are not one of those people that God has placed into your inner circle, then you don't have to listen to that. I Speak a lot in public. I'm on a lot of social media and videos and things of that nature. Well, along with that comes a lot of criticism Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Brett Knight: along the way. And and I have just learned that if you are not one of the men that I would go to to ask advice, you really don't get to speak in my life in a negative way either. You know, so while there are certain people that will that if they speak into my life, I'll put the brakes on the train and stop because they're those kind of men that if they say, Now hang on a minute, I want you to think about this. I'm not sure you're on the right path. I'll go, hmm, okay. Let me stop. Let me pray about this. Let me ponder this. That that man's in a place in my life where he gets he gets to do that. He gets to throw the break on things. But that doesn't mean that the entire public gets to throw the break on things. Michael Chestnut: That's Brett Knight: because otherwise we live in this very dissenting world. And and you could find yourself constantly being told, go left, go right. you know, we have an enemy who loves nothing more than to distract us. You know, if he can't defeat us, he'll distract us. So I I'll also caution the the men to say, you know, get yourself that group of people, allow them the authority to speak into your life, but that doesn't mean that everybody gets that authority to speak into your life. Michael Chestnut: Exact. Especially when we live in a world with the social media. We have so many keyboard warriors today that you know, Brett Knight: Yeah, for sure. Michael Chestnut: and and I'll be honest, there was a season in my life where I was just getting offended by all and then I'm like, you know, my wife was the one, she's like, Why do you even care what they think? And she's like, I mean, you need to care what I think about you, you need to care what kids and I was like, you know, she's right. Yeah. And Brett Knight: Wow. Yeah. There's some godly wisdom coming there. Michael Chestnut: You know, and so I have I've had some of the men in my top five really bruise my ego a few times. And I and I'll be honest, yon sharpens iron, there's gonna be friction. You're gonna not always like what they say. And I know Brett Knight: Yeah. There's gonna be some sparks every now and then. Michael Chestnut: and I've I've had those conversations and then I I've had to contact them back and say, Okay, you were right. You know, I I I thank you for For that. But I've also had times w where they only maybe have all the inform part of the information. And so those conversations I got to give them more information. And then they're like, okay. And I and I'm good with that because they're only watching out for me, right? And then Brett Knight: That's right. Michael Chestnut: you know what I know? They're like, Well, good. Now I know how to pray for you better. Because Brett Knight: That's right. Michael Chestnut: I just don't want these men talking to me. I want them praying for me too. Brett Knight: Yeah, absolutely. Michael Chestnut: And I think another important thing is I want to be back to them what they are to me. Like you said a minute ago, be the guy at the top and work your way to being the guy jumping in the hole with them. Don't just be someone who takes. You need to learn to give. Get outside Brett Knight: That's right. Michael Chestnut: of yourself. Brett Knight: Yeah, absolutely. And and you know, I'm I I say the same thing. The people who are in that that inner circle of me, every day, multiple times a day, I have people sending me a text saying, Hey, I'm at work and and I'm I'm the manager and I gotta go have this really tough conversation with one of my employees and and I really want them to see, you know, even though I'm disciplining them, I want them to see God's love coming out of me. Pray for me that I have the right words and the right right, you know, posture. And I'll stop right then and I'll pray for them and and I'm like, got you. You know, you're and then there's times where, you know, I'm walking into a really tough situation. I'm walking into a a living room and we're about to have a conversation with a man who's been in active addiction for 25 years and I'm I'm meeting with him about getting help. And and I'm like, look, guys, I'm walking into the enemy's territory right now. I you know, we're gonna we're gonna come in here and and and I I need I need some, you know, I I need some words of wisdom from the Lord of what to say that reaches into this man's heart and and words of life and words of love. and and so they'll pray for me when I'm walking into those scenarios. And and honestly, I don't know anymore how I would do life, Michael. I don't know how I would do life if I didn't have these people who are my own wife included, who who were praying for me in in all situations and knowing w what I'm involved in. And so if they're gonna pray for you in all situations, that means you gotta kind of open up the door and let them in. You you gotta Michael Chestnut: Right. You do. Brett Knight: say, Hey, I'm struggling with this anger thing. Hey, I'm struggling with this. you know, getting online and, you know, online gambling thing or I'm struggling with this. Every time I get on Facebook, I'm being presented with these images of half naked women and that's really causing a problem for me and and in my walk and and I'm really having a problem with this or that. You've got to be able to let some people in if you want them to really, you know, pray for you. nothing wrong with, you know, sometimes I'll see people say unspoken prayer request. But you need some people that you can have some spoken prayer request. You need Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Brett Knight: some people that they can pray for that. You know, I don't I'm not a I'm not a I'm not a fan of me incorporating that unspoken prayer request. If I want somebody to pray for them, I want them to pray with power into this very specific thing in my life, which means I have to humble myself in order to be able to talk about it. And I think that's that's a requirement for me, in into that. So Michael Chestnut: Well, you know, I grew up a pastor's kid and so my world was superficial in the r that type of relationship. I went through where I'm praying for you was like, have a good day. It you Brett Knight: Right. Yes. Michael Chestnut: know, and so a lot of people that in the world that I grew up with, they didn't really it was the onspoken prayer request. so I found myself where I did not have these men. That I were having these honest conversations with saying, Hey, I'm I'm struggling struggling with pornography right now and I I need help. I need you to dive in. That's shameful. But I want to be in relationships like that where God I I can say that to someone because Brett Knight: That's right. Michael Chestnut: in those moments, I love, I know I have five guys. I I've got men in my life right now that I know and I feel it. When I ask for prayer, they're praying. Brett Knight: Yeah. They do it. I Michael Chestnut: And Brett Knight: I made a commitment to myself, and this is five four years ago. I I noticed that like on social media, people were like praying for you, you know, praying for you and that kind of that I wouldn't even type in the words, and I'm not trying to be religious or, you know, Michael Chestnut: Right. Brett Knight: a a Pharisee here, but I wouldn't even type in the words praying for you or I'll pray for you until I had actually stopped for a moment and prayed for them. And then typed it in. And then I'd say, I prayed for you. because I didn't want to get to a place where I was just simply using those words, I'm praying for you, without the power, because me saying it doesn't mean nothing. It's the power of reaching the Heavenly Father and calling down all of heaven into a situation. And that's what it means when it says, I'm praying for you. So when I'm saying I'm praying for somebody, you know, you know, I sincerely mean it. And and I'm telling you, Michael, we could have an entire episode on what you just touched on, which is The shame and the hidden nature of sin when it comes to things like pornography. drug addictions, very similar as well, alcohol abuse, similar as well. But there's probably not a more impactful in men's lives thing than shame. And and I I say because I work so often in the world of recovery, I'll I say this and I mean it. I believe more people die from shame in d in the recovery community than die from overdoses. Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Brett Knight: And people say, well, how can you die from shame? Because it's shame that keeps you from reaching out for help. It's shame that keeps you from saying, I've relapsed. It's shame that keeps you from saying, I'm tempted in this area of my life. It's shame that keeps you from reaching out to a brother or to heaven itself. and and I believe that shame, you know, and of course the we we are told in the Bible the antidote to shame is to expose things to the light. and that's part, I'm not saying, you know, get on social media and announce every you know, wretched sin that you've ever committed in life. But I'm saying that there comes a point where you need to reveal it to your father. And and there may come a point where you need to reveal it to trusted individuals to join you in prayer. There's power in confession, there's power in prayer, and there's power in repentance. And we know that those all bind together. But that concept of shame, especially among men, now look, a lot of these ladies have got it figured out. Not all, but a lot of these ladies have got it figured out. They can get together with somebody who they just met fifteen minutes ago and they're sharing their deepest, darkest secrets. And, you Michael Chestnut: That's my wife. Brett Knight: know, I felt this way at fourteen years old and I had men were like, How you doing? Good. Okay, move on to the next part. I mean, that's it. We we create this like iron, you know, you know, shield Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Brett Knight: around our hearts and around our our feelings. And, you know, you have to have a we have to have some trusted people in which we, you know, feel comfortable talking about it, because that's how you defeat it. You expose it to the light and You know. Michael Chestnut: That's exactly right. And that's that's the only way to defeat shame is to, you know, expose it. Because usually we've made it worse. The lie inside of us is is exaggerating it more than what it is. And you know, like you said, you've met with a lot of people who say, You don't know what I've done, you don't know what I've done. And I I was I I've said those I've said that a few times in my life. So I can relate. Brett Knight: Mm-hmm. Yeah, sure. Michael Chestnut: Hey, let me ask you real quick. One of the things I've done, I I didn't used to be a reader. Men, we don't like to read a lot. And now you know, I commit to so many books a year that I I I try to read to better myself. If someone asks me how can I how can I better myself, you know, I'm always telling them, when's the last time you picked up a book? Right. And most of time I got most of the men can't tell me a book they've read. And I know you wrote one. I would Brett Knight: Yeah. Michael Chestnut: you tell us a little bit about it? Brett Knight: Yeah, absolutely. I've I finished and published a book in the end of May. So it's still a a recent out and and the name of the book is From The Gavel to Grace. and and it's about walking people through what recovery looks like, but it's it's a field manual. I'm just gonna say it's a field manual for people who are walking out of active addiction into recovery and those that love them. And so A lot of the time I was really in the mind of a mother, you know, a mother who who's been setting up until two o'clock in the morning worried about her son praying that he gets arrested, because then at least she would know he was alive. Michael Chestnut: Right. Brett Knight: You know, and so I I think about those conversations, those mindsets. And so I wrote this book and and there were a a couple catalysts that that actually began this. I never set out to be an author, but it it became in my path. And and that was that, you know, well, you can't punish pain away. I touched on that a little bit earlier, how you know, you have to get to the root cause of what this issue is. and then it was also trying to help parents and loved ones and husbands and wives to understand what it is that their loved one is going through. I get those questions so often, hundreds of times. I've had that conversation of why do they do this? Why don't they just quit? Why don't they just stop? You know, they came home on Thanksgiving and they and they blew the whole situation up. Are they mad at me? Is this because of something I did as a mother and to go through the the the thought process and and the decision making you know derailing that addiction can cause for people and then to also walk families through how do you help somebody and and walk give hope to people who are trying to go into recovery. And then the last third of the book is really dedicated to the community and to churches trying to light a fire under us that you know what? We really need to start walking this. We really need to start getting involved in this. Hey, you you you quoted the story from the prodigal son at the very beginning of this episode. I use that story at the end of my book to explain the what love and the grace of of how God sees us no matter how long we were in the pig pen. But he doesn't go to the pig pen and fund our our our sin, right? The father didn't go to the pig pen and fund the sin. He waited for for that. But when the as soon as the first steps were taken there, he rushed to meet him. and so there's a lot of that. It's it's that conversation of what hope looks like. It's filled with all kinds of testimonies. I I think there's twelve or thirteen real examples. I'll talk about an issue. I'll I'll talk what the Bible says about that issue, and then I give like a true life testimony walking through that. And having helped hundreds of people walk through it, I had a whole you know, file cabinet full of examples, and then I actually had those people write their own stories. you know, their own testimonies of how it impacts in that book. So it's been I'll tell you I wrote it and and the reason I wrote it is I knew that these conversations like you and I are having people are literally families are literally dying, communities are literally dying for this information. and I can only meet with so many people in my living room and so many people in my conference room. So I knew something like a book, something like a podcast that that is able to reach people who I'll never meet. And I'm able to share this information, able to share all of this hope, share this idea that that loved one is still in there. And there's a God that will redeem them fully. And and to share that with people who I'll never meet. And so that's the the the reason for the book. When it came out, I've been absolutely floored the last two and a half months, though I'm not quite two and a half months, a little over two months, with the response. It came out in the first few weeks, it it went on to be the Amazon number one Amazon new release book. it's been purchased many, many more times than I ever thought a book that I wrote about recovery would be. It's gone into places that I never even imagined. there are 16 counties in the middle part of Tennessee that have taken this book and and purchased like 20 or 30 copies of the book and put it into their jail libraries for people who are incarcerated to read. I have ministries from other states reaching out to me saying, Hey, we're we've read this and we're gonna start a ministry. I had I had a recovery program that read my book and they took it on themselves and they wrote a they began to write a study manual for it so they could use it as part of their studies and they've since given that to and asked me to, you know, to refine it and to you know create a study manual off the book. So there's all kinds of things where God just simply took my obedience. And that's my encouragement to men out there. If you if you believe God is t asking you to do something, just be obedient. Let him, he'll worry about the provisioning. He'll worry about making it expand. You just have to be obedient. and so I've had this amazing experience the last few months with this book, the doors that have been opened up. and so I I just I would encourage anybody who who has an interest and understanding a lot of what we've been talking about. You know, get a copy of the book. You can get it on Amazon. hardback version, paperback version, audiobook version, Kindle version. Michael, if they had a carrier pigeon version, I would have I would have got that one too. But but they didn't Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Brett Knight: have a carrier pigeon version. So and and also if if anybody has additional questions about or additional information about the book, my website is Brett Knight.com, just like my name. And B-R-E-T-T-K-N-I-G-H-T. And I've got, I think, 12 new articles that I've written since the book's come out talking about expanding on some of these topics. And they're all on there on the website. And you can, you know, go on there and find other information. But most importantly, you can also reach out to me because I really want to hear what people have to say about the book. Tell me if it made an impact. Tell me what made an impact in in your life. I had a a lady contact me about three weeks ago and she sent me a message on on Messenger, on Facebook Messenger, and and I know her. And she said, Pastor Brett, this mess and she quoted a line from the book. She said, This absolutely it put words into my soul that I've been struggling with for months. She said, This is exactly how I felt. And you know what was interesting, Michael, when she quoted that one sentence? I don't remember writing that one sentence. I don't. I mean, it was just one sentence in the middle of a of a of a conversation that was a really an important part. But I don't remember like I mean, I I wrote it, but I don't remember like toiling over that one sentence. But that's what the Holy Spirit does for us. Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. That's right. Brett Knight: You know, God knew. God knew when I was writing it to to tell that Michael Chestnut: That's yeah. Brett Knight: that that this particular words would would make an impact in his daughter's life. And and so that's what we get to be when we are obedient. We get to see God take something that we don't even remember and and turn it into something. So that's been the book experience. And like I said, I you know encourage anybody, if you know somebody who's who's in that position and then the book may be of of help to them to get them a copy and and hopefully it it continues to bless them. Michael Chestnut: Well, I thank you, Brett, for that. Cause I'm I'll be getting a copy. I work with Celebrate Recovery here in Pensacola and a lot of Brett Knight: Amazing program. Michael Chestnut: it chang life changing. And Brett Knight: Absolutely. Michael Chestnut: got a couple of guys in there that would probably love to read with it. So that I'm encouraging. But thank you. We'll make sure that we have in the description exactly where you can find Brett at and his book. And if you've been listening to this and you feel like that prodigal son, maybe, maybe this episode was just for you. You feel like, you know, if someone only knew me, and maybe the things we talked about are just really scary for you to do. we understand that. Been there, done that, but let me tell you, God has a purpose and a plan. So my words of encouragement to you would be replay this again. And get with a pastor in your area, reach out to a minister, reach out to a celebrate recovery, something, or reach out to Brett or I through the podcast here. We'd love to talk with you. And to my guests, until next time, you just keep being intentional. Thank you guys.