Latest / Tits, Wit, & Grit / Building Success Through Grit and Authenticity with Sarah Flack

Transcript

Building Success Through Grit and Authenticity with Sarah Flack · Tits, Wit, & Grit

• Tracy Laskos: are women who walk into a room and you feel them before they even speak. And then there are women who have walked through fire. They've stood in the truth of who they are and built something powerful from the ashes. Today's guest is one of those women. Sarah Flack is a trial attorney, a former prosecutor here in Atlanta, and the force behind what many know as the golden lawyer. But what makes Sarah extraordinary isn't just what she's built in the courtroom. It's who she became in the quiet moments no one saw. She's lived the kind of chapters that will crack you open, the kind that ask you to stop performing your life. and to start living it. And instead of running from those moments, she turned toward them and let them shape her into a sharper, stronger, and more unapologetic version of herself. She's going to talk to us about identity, about shedding the belief that you're too much, about choosing integrity when it costs you something, and what it really means to carry both strength and softness into the rooms that weren't built for you. Sara Frasca: Tits Wit and Grit is a podcast created to hold honest, intelligent conversations with women who lead, build, and navigate demanding professional lives. This podcast was born from a belief that women benefit from spaces where experience is honored, perspective is shared openly, and leadership can be discussed in both depth and candor, and maybe even a little laughter. Each episode brings forth voices that will offer insight Tracy Laskos: And on a personal note, Sarah, you're someone I deeply respect and someone I'm grateful to call a friend. This is a conversation about grit in its truest form and the kind that you earn. So settle in listeners because this is one honest conversation and it's raw and exactly what this space is made for. Welcome Sarah to Titswit and Grit. Sara Frasca: drawn from their experience, and we will all speak honestly about leadership, resilience, ambition, and personal evolution. So let's get started. Tits, wit, and grit. Sarah Flack: Thank you so much. I'm gonna cry. Don't make me cry. I'm still postpartum. So it'll come out quickly. Thank you, Tracy. Tracy Laskos: I'm Laura Raether: ⁓ It's all right. You can cry, Sarah. It's okay. But to start off, know, tits, and grit, let's talk about the tits part. Let's talk about being a woman and why, you know, what does it mean to be a woman and why you like being a woman. you know, I'll let you tell your story, but that's why we're kind of all here. That's part of our three-legged stool. Sarah Flack: Yes, well, I love starting with tits because like I said, I have a 12 week old baby and so I've quite literally been on that journey too. And we can talk about that later too, because that is a struggle that I don't think we women talk about enough if you decide to breastfeed. But yeah, no, mean, being a woman, to me it is being everything. We get to wear so many hats and I just, without getting into the gender identity and all of those things, for me being a woman means, one, I'm Laura Raether: Yeah. ⁓ Sarah Flack: At home, I'm this nurturer to my two children. I've got a four-year-old and a three-and-a-half-month-old baby. I curate a space at home. I try to create vibes and energy and make things that my kids like. My daughter loves to cook everything. She wants to, can I help? Can I help? so me as mommy, I love getting into that role with her, which is 100 % different than when I walk into a courtroom. It is a male-dominated industry being a lawyer, and law generally was made really by men for men. And I'm so glad now that we've seen so many women sort of taking over this industry from lawyers to paralegals to operations to all of it, medical, all everything. So for me, being a woman is just getting to wear so many different hats and really flourishing in all of them, moving through it seamlessly and really saving the world. Cause I really do think us women, we are the neck. We save the world, you know? So it's just an honor and I love being a woman. Sara Frasca: Hmm. Laura Raether: And on that, can I ask if you have any inspirational women in your life or either in your professional life? Anything you want to share with our listeners? Sarah Flack: ⁓ absolutely. I mean, I could go on and on about the women in my life that have impacted me. Women that I know, women that I don't know, women that I read. Of course, I'd have to start with my mom. I my mom is a German immigrant who moved here ⁓ in her 20s without really speaking any English and raised two daughters. Her parents really disowned her because she married a Black man, moved to America for love, and... ⁓ they disowned her and so she was by herself. My parents ended up getting divorced and she went to school, taught herself English, learned the language and really became a super, super successful powerhouse. And so I think that's my first example of what it means to be a powerhouse is my mom. And then also was the mom who came home and made the house beautiful and all of these things. So my mom for sure, my best friend, I have a friend that's about... 15 years older than me. ⁓ And she's like my, call her my sister, my soul sister, my mom, all the things that I could think of that I met in law school. I've learned so much from her and we're really outwardly different. I mean, she's a Southern white woman with the most beautiful Southern accent. And you kind of think one thing about her, ⁓ which is totally wrong. And then you meet her you're like, ⁓ my God, you are just, she's an onion. And so I've learned things from her, famous, people, Oprah, Oprah Winfrey's always been, know, somebody that I've looked up to. I grew up watching her every day when I came home from school at four o'clock. And so, I mean, I could go on and on. ⁓ I'm just grateful to have so many amazing women in my life that have inspired me. Laura Raether: That's great. Thank you. Sara Frasca: It's beautiful. Can I ask about the breastfeeding? What's your position on that? Sarah Flack: Yeah, you know, it has been a struggle. ⁓ I started breastfeeding, I'll talk about my son. So he was born January 8th and he was pre-me. So I didn't know whether or not he was even gonna be able to, but he came out like latching, like he was, you know, full term. So we started and it went really well. I did it for about eight weeks and it just got to be quite honestly difficult for me. And I started dealing with like the guilt. I started going back to work or like court pretty early on, just here or there, maybe once a week. And so I was like in the parking lot, pumping, changing the pumping bra, making sure it's charged. And you're like, what do you do with the, now they've got these electronic, I don't know, cordless pumps. So you're like making sure it's charged, making sure it's cleaned. You know, so it was a lot on me like mentally. And so I felt really guilty, but I was like, honestly, I just need like a piece of myself back. And so I felt selfish about it and I just went to formula and like, it's been totally fine. Like lo and behold, he's totally fine, right? But it's one of those pressures. I hate it too, because I was able to breastfeed a lot of women I know want to do it and can't. And so I also felt guilty about that. You know, I just feel like we women have so much pressure on us, you know? But yeah, so the struggle was real, but we did not. Sara Frasca: Mm-hmm. Laura Raether: Thank Sara Frasca: Hmm. I, yeah, I mean, I remember being a brand new mom and it was like half of the people I would talk to would say, you can't, you know, don't breastfeed. And the other half were like, you have to. And it was like, what, what am I supposed to do? Like there's such conflicting opinions, but I do agree with you on the logistics. That is a really, really hard portion of like what a working mom has to do. It's really time consuming and Sarah Flack: Yeah. Yes. I know. Sara Frasca: It's another one of those things that men don't ever have to contend with. it's kind of interesting. ⁓ Well, let's turn our attention to wit. What do you think about humor and ⁓ how does it kind of bring levity or how does it play a role in the things that you do? You have so much heaviness too in your kind of defense of your clients. So how it come to play? Sarah Flack: Right, right. Yeah, it for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Humor is, I mean, if without that, I probably would not be here to be honest with you. Yeah. Like you said, I mean, just the career is heavy. People are coming at you at the worst times of their life. I handle serious felony defense cases. So murders, armed robberies, and then, you know, serious injury cases. And so people are really, really hurt. Can't work, can't drive. And it's all coming at you and energy is not lost or destroyed, right? And so somebody's getting it, you know? And so without that, without being able to laugh, literally sometimes laughing and crying at the same time, I had an experience where I had a client that was executed, he was on death row and we are waiting. Like, so nobody tells you, you don't learn about what do you do when your client's about to be killed in prison. Nobody teaches you about that in law school. But so you're sitting there like logistically, you're sitting there in the prison waiting on the United States Supreme Court to make a decision on if they're gonna stay this person's execution. And so we're sitting in a conference room with a clock just staring at a clock like out of a movie, just tick, tock, tick, tock, like waiting. And there's a phone that we're waiting to hear yes or no, meaning he's gonna live or he's gonna die. And while we're doing this, I mean, we're crying, it's... two lawyers, myself, his other lawyer, and then a close friend and a pastor. So we're waiting and in comes the prison with like a fresh hors d'oeuvres, fresh sandwiches. They're like, hey, we figured while you guys were waiting, if you were hungry, here's some snacks. And it's like Coca-Cola products and brownies and baked goods. It's like the spread. You're like, what? Like what is happening right now? But anyway, so we're like crying and laughing and like, what the hell is going So it's just things like that, like in the literally the worst moments. ⁓ If you can't find something to like ground you and, know, just for a minute to escape that tragedy, like literally comedy and tragedy, I don't know how else you get through it without that. Tracy Laskos: Absolutely. Sara Frasca: That's a great example. I would say ⁓ I am curious to know, you know, in your current world, I mean, that is a very extreme example and like so moving, but like, how do you, do you use humor through the day? Do you, you know, do you find ways to kind of get a laugh in or what does that look like? Sarah Flack: Yeah. Yes, I do. I I would be lying to you if I said that every day I was like, okay, I got to figure out how to like laugh or how to, you know, seek relief. But I mean, it just, it kind of comes up. I mean, I've got a pretty good routine now where every morning I'm starting typically by walking outside. And so a lot of those mornings include me walking with my bestie. She's an attorney in Asheville. That's who I was telling you about who I just really admire. But so a lot of our conversations are talking about the day before that we had and every time there's something that we end up laughing about. ⁓ We always say like, one day we're gonna have a show, like a sitcom or something, like, because you just can't make this stuff up. And we're like, we gotta make sure we add that. We're just like laughing about, you know, some of the craziness that we see. So yeah, it is definitely a part of my day to day, for sure. Laura Raether: And Sarah on that, do you ever like kind of try to up each other of like, well, your day was crazy, my day was even crazier and listen to what happened here. Like, how does that banter go back and forth? Cause I bet it's kind of funny, but not funny. Sara Frasca: That's it for today's episode of Tits, Wit and Grit, where bold women, big ideas, and a little bit of fearless attitude collide. Sarah Flack: Yeah, mean, it's kind of, it's sadly just like that. She's like, you'll never guess what this, you know, what happened today. And I'm like, tell me, I'm like, that's so funny you say that because, and usually there's some like other crazy story that I have that I'm like, wow, I thought this was just me. Is this all of us? You know? Yeah, so it is just, at this point now, we've even started like a Google doc, I kid you not. Cause we do at some point want to do a show where like, we've got to write this stuff down because we will forget it, you know? ⁓ Laura Raether: Mm-hmm. Sara Frasca: Great. That's really great. I know your ⁓ kind of philosophy and I've also read the book Unreasonable Hospitality, which I'm sure you have, but I know that's like a big core of who you are and how you run your business. Is there a way that you incorporate like the wit into that? I'm just curious. Laura Raether: Great idea. Sarah Flack: Yeah. Tracy Laskos: If today's conversation sparked something for you, share it with someone who needs it and make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss what's coming next. Sarah Flack: Yes. Yep. You know, that's a good question. I haven't thought about it that way, but I mean, I guess if I break it down, a lot of the unreasonableness is like connection with clients. And so if you're truly connecting, which is what we're doing, it's not like manufactured. It's not like, you know, here's a pretty gift or it's literally becoming really friends with your clients and knowing what's going on. And so in that, usually there is something that we can relate to and usually it's something funny, right? Or it's something like pop culture or news or Just something that you're able to bond. I think humor is really that connection. ⁓ Because when you're laughing, you kind of let your guard down a little bit. ⁓ And so I think, yeah, for sure that's a part of our unreasonable hospitality. Tracy Laskos: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you've used humor and your witty nature in breaking up some of the conversations in a male-dominated space, right? I mean, walking into meetings where you're the only female or walking into situations. Any stories along those lines, Sarah, that you come to top of mind? Sarah Flack: ⁓ my gosh, yes, and maybe some of them you may or may not have been there present for, but for sure. ⁓ You know, I've regularly find myself, and I'm like a dry humor person. Like I've got a real dry sense of humor, sarcastic. My mom's German, and like, what's the joke? Like Germans don't think anything's funny or like they don't laugh. She'll be like, that is hilarious. I'm like, really? Yeah, she just doesn't. And so I think I have some of that too. ⁓ Laura Raether: He Remember, show up with confidence, trust your wit, and never underestimate the of grit. Sara Frasca: Thank Laura Raether: Thank Sarah Flack: So yeah, I'll be in a meeting with a bunch of lawyers and like something happens and it's usually all men and they'll like say something that you're, think any woman in the room is like, did they just say that? And so you call it out a little bit like, hey guys. ⁓ And so, you know, that's my dry humor that I think, you know, is important. Laura Raether: See you next time. Tracy Laskos: Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. But that's a great segue to the other portion of, know, tits, and grit is grit. mean, Sarah, knowing you personally, you're you are one of the grittiest individuals, I'd love if you might be able to share a little bit for our listeners a little bit about your grittiness, where it came from, some examples or stories about how you've really lent into that value within yourself to get to where you are today. Sarah Flack: Yeah, mean, the grit. Thank you, by the way. think that is a compliment to say that because, I probably wouldn't have said that 10 years ago, like somebody said, gritty, you know what I mean? But I actually think you can't be great without the grit. Like you've gotta go, my husband and I always say, like if you wanna be great, or like if you think about the greats that have written books, I mean, if their books and their lives are so amazing because you read about all of the stuff they've had to overcome, you know? Laura Raether: Mm-hmm. Sarah Flack: Nobody's great. That's just like, hey, my life I've sat at a beach and had margaritas all day and everything's always been perfect. Right. So thank you. But yeah, I mean, I'd say for me, my mid to late twenties was probably the first time that I think I consciously recognize, you know, strife. I had gotten married very young and was gotten divorced and was like living my best life. Right. Like I found the cute high-rise penthouse, or it wasn't a penthouse, but was on like the 20-something floor in midtown Atlanta. was going out with friends. You know, my career was taking off. I was trying cases. I was, you know, it was just everything. It was great. All the boxes in my life had been checked. I went to law school, took the bar, got the grades, did the thing, did the mock trial, like all of the things I'm supposed to do. ⁓ And it's just like this train just kept going and going and going. And I don't think that I was really ever like conscious, know, like conscious of what was going on. I was just on this train and you know, like so many high performers do, like I had issues focusing, so I'm taking Adderall, prescribed Adderall to focus. And then I'm like, gosh, I can get so much done. Like, and now I'm able to focus. And that becomes quickly spiraled for me where it's like, not only can I focus, but all of these other great things happen. I don't think people talk about it enough. in our world, especially in the legal world, there's so many people I know, even like students and younger folks that will talk about Adderall, you know, kind of flippantly. And I'm just, you know, and I know it can be used in a great way. I'm not a doctor, but for so many people, I think it's abused. And if you're not careful, I mean, it's an amphetamine. It's a really strong drug. And I think that for me, it did not work well. ⁓ I ended up, you know, my sleep was affected, my... Judgment was affected. You know, you're going out and you're drinking alcohol with that like things that people don't talk about mixing those things and I just found myself in a place where I Was so unhappy. I was in a really bad got into a really bad relationship one. I probably wouldn't have gotten into If I was seeing clearly or thinking clearly but life was just so great right until it wasn't and so for me, you know, I that was the first time where I was like something's gotta change. I could see almost my career come before me and everything I'd worked for was gonna be lost. And so I really, that's just the first example. I have other examples, that's the other thing is I think in life it's like, okay, you figured it out now and now I've gone to therapy for six weeks and I'm better, right? And then you live happily ever after and I'm also realizing at 37 that that's also not true. That you go through things, you learn. You know, I always say this in court that the path to, when I'm talking about sobriety with my clients, like it's the path to sobriety is not linear, Judge. Like if my clients relapse, it's sort of a harm reduction, right? Like the goal is that it may go like this, but they're getting better over time. And I really think same for us, ⁓ for humans, like you go through things, you take four steps ahead, maybe one or two back, like things are gonna happen. ⁓ Later in my 30s, I lost my dad, or my early 30s, my dad passed away really unexpectedly due to COVID. I was pregnant and I wasn't able to see him. I mean, he died in 18 days. So like that set me back for a while. And I found myself like in some of these same patterns. I wasn't using Adderall then, but then I started like abusing food. was all I could do is just eat to like shove down my feelings. I was pregnant with my daughter at the time. And I just remember being in the bath like for an hour or two and like just eating. you know, and this is 2021, like, so we're still in the height of it, grieving and I gained so much weight and you know, that also wasn't healthy. I was pregnant. So anyway, those are just some examples of like where if you're not careful, if you don't like pour into yourself consistently, you know, you'll kind of be back where you started. And so I've made it a mission of mine now to like really make sure every day I'm doing just a little bit. Like I don't have to do a lot, but like just a little bit for that day. ⁓ I know in sobriety one of the things is just for today, right? Make it through the day. And so, yeah, I try to make that some of how I live for sure. Tracy Laskos: Yeah. Well, and you've lent heavily into your, using the word grit, but really lent into that value within yourself in creating your firm. mean, you're a solo entrepreneur, my friend, opening up your own firm. I mean, that takes a lot of ⁓ grit and trust in self. mean, what has that journey been like for you? Sarah Flack: I mean, it has been incredible and it has also been hard and it has been all of the things, all of the feels, but ultimately, like I love it so much. I wake up every day. If I'm overwhelmed, I'm like, you know what? You get to do this. Like be thankful. You asked for this. Like you wanted this. You signed up for this. And the days that I'm overwhelmed are usually days where I've got a lot of clients or new signups or I've got trials coming up. Like those are the things I love, right? So, ⁓ It's not been easy, of course, opening any business is because it's like you are taught to be a lawyer, right? But you're not taught to be a business owner or to be an HR executive or an operations person or a numbers person. Like, you know, so I'm learning all of these things, which has also been gritty and hard, but also fun to learn these other worlds. So it has been all of the things, all of the fields, certainly. Sara Frasca: Great. Laura Raether: think that's interesting for our listeners about grit. Because I think a lot of times people think, well, I went through something hard once. Now I'm good. I've checked that box in my life. And I think what you're describing, grit manifests itself throughout your life. There are times when you think you've dug as deep as you can dig, I should say, and then 10 years fast forward, something else happens. And you've got to dig even deeper. And so I think that there's wisdom there of just like, it's kind of part of life's journey. And so building those skills, like you said, of being able to dig deep and being able to kind of go to your foundation is key. So thank you for sharing. Sarah Flack: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, thank you. Sara Frasca: ⁓ I was gonna say my husband sometimes calls it building the callus. So it might be for our kids, it might be like you lose, know, someone breaks up with you. Well, you know, as a parent, it's like, well, they're building the callus because bad things are gonna happen in life. And so anyway, I just think of it as like that grit, those things that you've worked through, like you've had the mental toughness and you've, you know, over time helped to protect yourself by working through it one piece at a time. Laura Raether: Mm-hmm. Sarah Flack: Yeah, I like that, the building the callus because that's exactly what it is. And it's a good like visual. We all know what that looks like. ⁓ I'm serious. Like this has been ⁓ a discovery for me just in the past year with some some difficult things that I've had to go through where I'm like, ⁓ OK, so you may not have gone through this exact scenario before, but you know what you got to do. So for me, like in a really hard time, I'm like, OK, am I walking every day? Am I drinking water every day? Am I, have I like sat and like read a book or gotten off of TikTok? Am I scrolling Instagram? Like the things that I know just aren't good for me. And then the things I know that always helped me get back on my feet. And those are things that I wouldn't know unless I'd gone through things before and made it out, you know? And so now it's easier every time. I think it gets a little bit easier. And I think you get to a point where it's like, no matter what you go through, you know you can get through it. You know? Tracy Laskos: Yeah. Sara Frasca: Yeah, that trust in self like you said Tracy as an entrepreneur like you're betting on yourself, right? Like you know you can do it Okay, ⁓ well i'm gonna change gears a little bit because we did tits, wit, and grit now We're gonna do the ⁓ shit moments that you've had so curious personally professionally like something where maybe it put you on your heels or Maybe you even leaned in it was like ⁓ shit Tracy Laskos: Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Sarah Flack: Right. Sara Frasca: What moments have you had like that? Sarah Flack: ⁓ man, ⁓ shit, I've had a few of those moments. ⁓ I mean, one of them I think I kind of went into a little bit, which is just that first, like in my 20s where I thought I had everything figured out and you realize quickly, like the spiral with, you know, using Adderall and just like, how did I get here? And you're like. Tracy Laskos: you Sarah Flack: ⁓ this is not good. Like, this is not good. I got to figure out how to get out of this. And it's not just the Adderall, it's like all the stuff that comes with it. The people I'm hanging around, you know, that I've been calling friends and I'm like, these people are not friends or the things that I've put off that I, you know, I need to be focused on my career or whatever. So that was probably my first one. And yeah, I've had so many more throughout my career. I had to think about a good one that I've had recently. Gosh, I've had some though. I definitely have. That might be like, mantra honestly like ⁓ shit here we are Laura Raether: You Sara Frasca: What about as a female, a female leader? Many that come to mind. Sarah Flack: Yeah, here's a good one. ⁓ So in being a business owner, obviously you have these goals when you start like, want to make this in revenue, Or whatever. And so then you kind of get lost in the day to day because you're still handling cases, you're still going to court, you're still dealing with clients, all the things. And I had a mentor ask me, well, what are your numbers? But I'm like, what do you mean? What numbers? And they're like, well, how many clients? How many cases have you signed? this month. And I'm like, oh shit, I probably should know that, right? Well, how many, how many cases have settled this month? How many demands have you sent out this month? Like, hold on, give me a second, I'll figure it out. But like, those are things as a lawyer, like not even just a lawyer, as a business owner, as a law firm owner, like I need to know those numbers. Those are like the three things, you know, revenue cases I've signed every month, like I should know this. So that, and that's like a, what do you think that you would know? But for me, I'm not a numbers girl. I'm like, I'm the feel, I'm the case. I'm like, let's figure out the landscape of this, how we're gonna, you know, settle this case. What all do we need? What experts? Where do I want my client to treat? But as far as like the actual business side of it, like I'm not interested in that, but I gotta be interested in it because that's how you grow a business. So that's, I think that's a good one right there. Laura Raether: Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. And what we do, we see that all the time. it's like we call it working on the business versus working in the business. It's like you're busy being an amazing attorney, which is great. But then who's wondering about the numbers? And ⁓ my gosh, security systems broke. So who's getting that fixed? mean, a lot of things come. Sarah Flack: Right. Right. Laura Raether: come at the forefront of like, ⁓ I don't want to worry about that, but you kind of have to, because as my father would say, shut up, there ain't nobody else. Like you kind of got to do it. Right. Yeah. Sarah Flack: Right. Yeah, you are the other person. Tracy Laskos: You Laura Raether: All right. Well, let's talk about some no shit. So from the standpoint of either something you don't put up with, no shit, we're not doing this, ⁓ or wow, that happened, no shit, like I cannot believe it. All right, so then on that, let's talk about some good shit. Like now we celebrate the good stuff. What's the good shit throughout your career, ⁓ personal life, you want to share. ⁓ Tell our listeners about that. Sarah Flack: Yeah. All right. Some good shit that like honestly is it's been a year for me. It's been a very difficult year. this month, April has been like a really great month. So like good shit is like on my on my on my heart this month. But yeah, so I'd say this is kind of my first month back from maternity leave ish, whatever you call that when you're a business owner. we've yeah. ⁓ Laura Raether: Yeah. Maternity second, not leave. Second, yep. Tracy Laskos: You Sarah Flack: Yeah, we've signed a really good number of cases. I've been trying to like structure my business in the way I want a certain kind of criminal case and a certain kind of car accident, right? But you don't get to just choose who comes in. But this is a month where like I'm seeing the fruits of some of that labor where I signed, you know, four amazing criminal clients this month that are like exactly the kinds of cases I'm looking for. And then we've had a really amazing turn of signups in PI cases that are really badly injured folks. ⁓ And so those are two really good things for my business that I'm just super excited about and our numbers are really good. We've settled, actually I had a mediation this morning and I settled it for multi six figures, which it needed to be. There was no offer on that case. And I did it with my baby monitor right next to me at my house. like, I feel like that should be some good shit right Laura Raether: Good. What? Tracy Laskos: Yes. Yes. That's shit. That is good shit. Laura Raether: That's good shit. We'll take it. Yeah. And that's awesome. That's great. I love it. And that's just, wait, that's just April. So we might have to have you back on in the fall to hear, you know, the most of the year. Exactly. That's good. I love it. Sarah Flack: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Tracy Laskos: That's some good shit. I kind of along Yeah. Sarah Flack: That's just April. Yeah. Tracy Laskos: Yeah, yeah. Sarah Flack: Right, and like follow through with the year. Yes, yes, definitely. Tracy Laskos: Yeah. Sarah, how you arrived at your golden lawyer, is that a good shit kind of story that led you towards that name, that kind of marketing piece? Sarah Flack: You know, the name, everyone thinks, I get that question often, like why golden lawyer? And like, there's a really superficial answer to it, but like really it's super deep and it's gritty. ⁓ We all think of gold, you know, it's like, we all have this vision of what that means, like golden stuff and, you know, but for me, when I really did the research on it, like gold is not, it doesn't start like golden, it starts, it's buried deep in our world. ⁓ Tracy Laskos: Yeah. you Sarah Flack: Gold itself needs a lot of pressure and heat for it to form. ⁓ And what's left of that, and it takes many, many years, and it's to make it, like you're mixing it with a bunch of different things, a lot of heat, a lot of pressure, which is exactly kind of my story. ⁓ You know, it's a beautiful color. obviously symbolizes value and of the things that we all know it to mean. But truly, if you know this, how gold is made, ⁓ you can't make it without lots of heat and lots of pressure. and time, ⁓ which I think is how you build a good business, how you build a good life, how you build good relationships, friendships. They take time. They take a little bit of give and take. You're dancing. Sometimes you might step on toes, but like you make it through, right? And so for me, I feel like that really is a golden lawyer, golden, where we are offering a service that we believe is above all else, but also is... filled with that heat and that pressure. And then we're gonna give it in every case to every adjuster, to every lawyer. And we're gonna do it for our amazing clients that we believe are also made of gold, you know? So it's got a little bit of, a little bit of ⁓ multi-meaning there for sure. Laura Raether: That's awesome. That's good shit for sure. Yeah. I mean, you could have just gone flack law firm. But you didn't. Sara Frasca: You... yeah, it's amazing. Yes. And I... Sarah Flack: Thank you. Yeah, I could have. Nah, that's not quite as fun, Tracy Laskos: Yeah. Sara Frasca: Thank Well, I was gonna say, I really have found you to be like, you've gone into the levels of depth of different meanings and kind of, you know, even ⁓ the painting behind you, which I know the paintings behind you, which I know have a lot of meaning, but do you wanna tell our listeners what you're sitting in front of? Sarah Flack: Yeah, absolutely. the two paintings, if I'm going to move a little bit you can see them, but the two paintings behind me, had them commissioned in 2017 by an artist here in Atlanta who does a lot of street graffiti art. ⁓ And I wanted him to paint something that to me symbolize our system and Trayvon Martin. So that's who's behind me is Trayvon Martin. And as we know his case back in 2012, he was a child who was going to get Skittles wearing a hoodie in Florida. and was mistaken to be this dangerous person and was unfortunately killed doing nothing wrong. so the picture here on the left is like what we all saw on the news. It was him in the hoodie. This evokes an image, this black kid in a hoodie. ⁓ But what we don't know is who this kid is on the right or behind me, ⁓ who Trayvon was really into aeronautics and space. And I think had aspirations one day to become an astronaut in that field and had been working towards it. He was a very, very smart young man who I think had a future. We don't know what his future could have been. And so that's why this is called coulda, woulda, shoulda. This is who we lost. And so you think about in our system, know, versus in cases where people are killed in accidents and negligence and you think about like, who have we lost here? You know, who could they have been in this world? What could they have contributed to our world? And sadly we'll never know. And so to me this always just reminds me of why I do what I do. I also have the tattoo on as well. I have his face on my arm, because it just keeps me in check with like why I do what I do and it's for him. Sara Frasca: I mean, I have goosebumps from head to toe right now. mean, I think one of the things, obviously, like at its face value, the story that you've shared, I'm also just, ⁓ thank goodness for someone like you that sees and ⁓ can stand up for people and, know, and then the third thing, I'm like, gosh, you just, find the depth in each of these things. Like most of us, I guess me, sit in front of kind of a boring piece of art, but like, Yours has this like connection to who you are, who your firm is, the good that you're doing in the world. So I'm just like amazed by even your choice of backdrop is so meaningful. Sarah Flack: Thank you, you know what? Thank you for saying that. Cause like I really do try to be super intentional about that. And that's something I learned from my bestie Mariah. Like she has really taught me all you have is like your surroundings, your home, your office. So like, what are you going to fill that space with? What moves you? What gives you joy every day? What, you know, it's so wonderful. My daughter, this is now just in all candor. This isn't in my office because I had it. at my office is what it was for originally. And I'm like, I'm not there all the time. I love this painting so much, like I want it in my house, so it's in my house. And my daughter walks by, have conversations about it. She asks about it. Everybody who comes in my house, it's one of the first things they see. So I get to talk about it all the time. And I look at it with such joy. And I try to do that as much as I can in every area of my life. Even my clothes, like this gives me joy, little feathers. You know what I mean? Like life's too short to be boring. Laura Raether: Right. Yep. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Put on the damn lipstick, is what I say. Yes. Uh-huh. Wear those high heels. Why not? Yes, for sure. Tracy Laskos: Yep. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But Sarah, you also carry that into how you lead, like how you lead your team, how you lead your clients. Can you talk a little bit to our listeners about what it means to you to be a female attorney and leading those, whether it be... Sarah Flack: Yes, yes. Right. Tracy Laskos: you know, in prior organizations, whether it be in your current organization, but also in the community in and of itself. I mean, you show up as one of the most authentic people I have ever met. I mean, I would love for the listeners to learn a little bit about how you do it, why you do it, and kind of your heartbeat behind it. Sarah Flack: Yeah, I mean, think when you're a leader, number one, you should carry that with you, like, somberly, like, and know that It's not about you as a leader. It's about whoever it is that you're leading. And so that, think you have connection is number one. ⁓ Knowing who you're representing, if it's you as the lawyer representing a client or if it's an organization or a law firm and you're representing or you're leading a team, like who are the folks in your organization? What do they believe? What drives them? What gives them joy every day? And if you can kind of like start to learn the humanity in everybody that you're around, ⁓ it's what I think drives an organization. It's what drives success. You can fake it for a little bit, you know, if you don't care about that piece, but you know, we use the word, I think we all are familiar with the word culture. What's the culture of an office? That's really all it is, is like that humanity piece. And if you don't have that in an organization or as a lawyer with your client, you're just gonna be a number. And we know how that story ends. It's just, it's, so anyway, for me, being a leader means connecting. to whoever it is that I'm representing or leading to make sure that their voice is truly heard. Tracy Laskos: Yeah, yeah. Laura Raether: And Sarah, how do you, how have you balanced it throughout your career of, you know, sometimes women, if we bring our whole self and bring ourselves as leaders, we can either be like too much, sorry, I'm gonna say the word too bitchy, too da da, you know, how have you balanced that? And again, I think sometimes it might be a little bit of a generational thing. And I hope, you know, 50 years from now, we're not having these conversations anymore, but talk, anything you can share on that. Sarah Flack: Yeah. Yeah, balance is not non-existent. I think it's just a learning curve. ⁓ I think I've tried to always begin, I try to listen, I try to understand the foundation of whatever the thing is. So if I'm at a law firm, if I'm new somewhere, I'm not gonna walk in like, hey, the show stops for me, because I also don't believe in that. I believe in humility, I believe in... when I was a new lawyer, when I was a new lawyer that passed the bar, I was making $10 an hour at the Fulton County DA's office before I got my bar results. And I tell that story now, I'm like, and I would do it again today. Like you gotta start somewhere. And I got so much, I was the first person there and the last person to leave. I said that was what I was gonna do and it ended up getting me a job. So I say all of that to say, I think as a leader, as a woman leader, I think it's important to like, one observe first and understand your surroundings, know the judge you're in front of, know your opposing counsel, know the cases that, you know, what drives them, what's important to them. Do your research and come prepared. Know your shit ⁓ because you can't walk in with the feathers and like hand tattoos in court. And then, you know, there's going to be an expectation or somebody, you know, people, you can't control what people think. So if you don't know your shit and you don't have your case law and you're wrong, You don't know your case or whatever it is, like you're gonna fail. So I think being prepared, over-prepared, trying to be the hardest working person in the room and observing I think are super important to honing that skill. Laura Raether: Do you think you've ever had to like tone it down? Sarah Flack: ⁓ for sure. Yes. Yeah, all the time. I mean, you know, when I go to court, when I'm picking a jury, I'm super strategic about what I wear because in that moment, it's not about me. It's not about my feathers, you know, and I don't want a juror's perspective of, ⁓ you know, a woman in a feather, whatever it may be, depending on where I'm at. ⁓ I have to recognize, like, it is not about me in those moments. It's about my client. ⁓ And so maybe toning it down, I don't know. if that's possible, because I think at the end of every trial, when I, every time I've talked to jurors after, it's like, they see me, you know? And I had one of them message me on Instagram, like, you're such a bad ass. And one day, like, I hope my daughters, you know, can become lawyers. So, and that was in like a small rural part of Georgia with, you know, an all white jury that I was like, these people are not going to connect, you know, or whatever. And she still messaged me. was like, hey, like, Laura Raether: Yeah. Sarah Flack: We loved you. And I was like, okay. So anyway, my point there is yes, I do it. I think it's important. Sometimes you have to, but I don't ever say do it at the expense of yourself. So if you're minimizing who you are at the expense of like being authentic and being you and ethically, you know, doing something that you don't believe is ethical, like then you don't do that. But you know, I think you have to read the room too. There is a, in that way, there is a little bit of a balance. Laura Raether: ⁓ Sara Frasca: Can I ask just in general in the the industry in the law industry You know, I think we've we've at least reflected that it's still predominantly male Have you seen that and kind of as a secondary question like is it shifting? Is it evolving? What do you think? Laura Raether: sure. That's great. Sarah Flack: I definitely think it's shifting and evolving because if you look at the numbers, they say, think now we graduate more women from law school than men, apparently. But then when you go into these courthouses, you know, maybe I'm in Atlanta, so outside of like the 30 mile radius that is Metro Atlanta, if I go even 45 minutes out, those counties and those courtrooms and those, you know, law offices, it's usually... male or if you look at partners, it's male. look at even law, there's many law firms here, many, many, many law firms here don't even have women lawyers, ⁓ which is shocking to me that that we still live in a world even in your big metro area cities that you don't have lawyers, women lawyers. ⁓ So I definitely think we are still outnumbered. We're not at the table a lot of the times, even if we're there, we're not at the table. We're not invited to that room. Tracy Laskos: Mm-hmm. Sarah Flack: ⁓ Our voice isn't being heard in that way and we gotta have a seat at the table to really make change, you know? Tracy Laskos: Yeah, absolutely. Well, Sarah, we're kind of coming up on time. And one of the things we love to do with our guests is kind of like a rapid fire of questions. yeah, okay. Are you ready? ⁓ What is a favorite book that helped shape you or maybe an alternative, like a favorite piece of media that you're watching or listening that's really been impactful to you? Sarah Flack: I love this. Yes! I'm ready! Favorite book, Untamed by Glennon Doyle, came out in 2020. listened to that probably once a year on audio book while I'm walking, because I just love her. I love everything she stands for. But I love how she wrote that book where it's kind all over the place, but like each chapter has a theme, but it may be like earlier in life, later in life, when she's married, before she got divorced. And I just, it's, I mean, it's a crazy, most brilliant piece of literature I think I've read. I just love that book. Tracy Laskos: on my bookshelf back there. Laura Raether: Now, lay Sarah Flack: Of course it is, Tracy. We're like... Sara Frasca: you Tracy Laskos: What is a mantra or phrase that you live by? Sarah Flack: I do have, I think right now one that I live by is to be extraordinary. You have to do extraordinary things. And I've heard that Emma Greed, she's on this big book tour right now. So I've listened to a lot of her stuff and she talks about that. Like if you want all the things and you wanna exceed in your, excel in your career and be better than everyone, you have to also do that. It doesn't just happen. So you gotta put in the work. You know? Yeah. Tracy Laskos: Mm, I love that. That's beautiful. So what is one thing that reliably grounds you when things get a little heavy? Sarah Flack: My children, my children and like, I feel lame in saying that because I used to be the person that's like, you don't need children, you don't, definitely do what you want. But for me, I didn't find focus in my life or like true purpose until I had my daughter. Now I can have like the worst day, I could lose the case, the client, say all these things. And then I just, I like hold my daughter, my son. Tracy Laskos: Hmm. Laura Raether: Yeah. Sarah Flack: And I'm just like, you know what? None of this matters. Like this is really what matters. You guys are what matter. You know? Yeah. Tracy Laskos: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. I love that. ⁓ What is one thing few people know about you? Sarah Flack: Ooh, I feel like I'm gonna say, I'm just gonna say the first thing that came into mind, because those are the rules. And we've talked about lot of healthy habits. ⁓ But back in the day, I just like my Carrie Bradshaw era and I'm not gonna lie every once in a while if I'm like Usually it's after like a jury selection day. I may or may not I won't do the wine with it because I definitely don't drink You know during trial I just can't but I might have a cigarette and just sat outside and it just I don't know even just the oral fixation of it You know, love me hate me. I know it's terrible and I don't do it a lot but like that, you know People were like why do you smoke? I'm like don't judge me. Okay Laura Raether: Yeah! Tracy Laskos: Yeah. Laura Raether: Hahaha Sarah Flack: I'm imperfect. Tracy Laskos: I think everyone's had the Carrie Bradshaw era. Laura Raether: Well for sure. For sure. Sara Frasca: Ha Tracy Laskos: Classic, by the way. And happy hour drink of choice. And it could be mocktail, but like, what is your drink of choice and why? Sarah Flack: it is. Yeah, I don't drink a lot. ⁓ I did a cocktail like last week, one of the first times since I've given birth. And so I'm gonna go with frozen espresso martini, which I've never had before. But there is one here in Atlanta. If next time you guys are in Atlanta, Sara, Laura, Tracy will all go. ⁓ Yebo Beach House has this incredible frozen espresso martini that is so delicious in this hot Georgia heat. Yes, 10 out of 10 recommend. Sara Frasca: Ooh. Laura Raether: Yeah. Sara Frasca: Great. Laura Raether: Oh, that sounds delish. Okay, tomorrow night? What do you think? Let's go. Wow, that's awesome. Sarah Flack: Yes. Let's do it. Let's go. Tracy Laskos: Yeah. Sara Frasca: I love it. Well, thank you so much for spending some time with us. I mean, I would say it is a real honor to know you and to add you to this tribe of women who have been on the Tits, and Grip podcast. And as we continue to build it, we're excited to be, you know, aligned with you on kind of these female empowerment components, especially within the law industry. So. Sarah Flack: Thank you. Sara Frasca: Thank you for being on our show. we are gonna send you some tits, wit and grit swag too, by the way. Yeah. you for being on the show. Sarah Flack: Thank you. Ooh, yes. Thank you. Thank you so much. Absolutely. And I just want to say that whoever came up with the name, best name, best podcast name ever, period. Like, and I mean that. Like, I'm a podcast girl. listen, best name. Love it. Sara Frasca: Yeah, Laura did. Tracy Laskos: learn. Laura Raether: Yeah. Thank you, Sarah. I mean, I will take credit. There was no amazing information, but I will take credit. But yeah, let's, ⁓ know, I want to take it to where we can take it. So let's do it. There's lots of good opportunities. There's lots of amazing women across this wonderful country, despite some of the crap that goes on and we can celebrate and we should. So that's what it's all about. So thank you for being on and Sara Frasca: We think so too! Sarah Flack: You're welcome. Thank you. Yes, Laura, you win. Sara Frasca: Yep. Tracy Laskos: you Sarah Flack: I'm so excited to watch you guys. Tracy Laskos: Mm-hmm. Sarah Flack: Absolutely. Yeah. Laura Raether: ⁓ It's been great getting to know you and thank you for being vulnerable to sharing some of your stories, know, what you've been through. So ⁓ for our listeners out there, you know, doesn't matter what age you are listening to us. It's, know, life is a journey. And hopefully that's what we hope to do is just share some great stories that you can make it through it one step at a time. So thanks. Sarah Flack: Thank you. Thank all of you. Absolutely. One that comes to mind for me is I, many years ago, worked at a firm and there was a moment where I could have taken on a greater role. ⁓ And it was earlier in my career and it seemed to be the right step. ⁓ But for whatever reason, not for whatever reason, I watched other women in leadership the way that they were treated and I had a moment, truly an aha moment, like driving home where I'm like trying to figure out what I'm gonna do. And I was like, no, hell no. I'm gonna be like, that's gonna be me. It's a recipe for disaster because it's an internal issue. It's a moral issue. And it's a fundamental issue that I just don't agree with. And so that was one of those moments where I was like, yeah, I got a pass. And it was super hard to do. So I'm sure it would have been great and would have checked many boxes, especially for someone who loves a box check. ⁓ But it just wasn't right. It just wasn't ethically right. It didn't feel right. And so I had to keep it moving. Laura Raether: ⁓ That's great, mean, and to stand up for what you believe in and not putting up with it. Sarah Flack: Yeah. Right. And that's exactly what we did.