Latest / Ta styringa / Jennifer Sherman (Unit4): ERP-et slik vi kjenner det, blir usynlig for brukere flest

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Jennifer Sherman (Unit4): ERP-et slik vi kjenner det, blir usynlig for brukere flest · Ta styringa

• [00:00:11] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: My name is Lars Hugo. I'm the director of business development at Arriba Tech. Today I'm going to have a talk [00:00:30] with Jennifer Sherman, who is a chief product officer at unit four. Jennifer, thank you for being with us today. I hope you could tell us a little bit about what you do as a CPO at unit four before we get going. [00:00:48] Jennifer Sherman: Absolutely. And thank you for having me. Excited to be here. And, and talking to Areva Tech, such a wonderful partner of ours. I have been the chief product officer at unit four for a year now. [00:01:00] In that role, I am responsible for our application strategy. So where are we going to invest based on the verticals that we want to, to target and support? What applications do we need to invest in? What capabilities do we need to build out? What geographic coverage are we responsible for? How do we best service our customers and make sure that they are future proofed? As we head into this era of great technological change I've actually been in product management doing this my entire career. I [00:01:30] actually spent the first 15 years of my career at Oracle in their ERP left because I, you know, I believe that the future is going to be a horror, a vertical one. I think the only way to really serve a customer well is to understand the dynamics of the industry and its own nuances, headwinds, tailwinds, regulatory pressures that they face. And in a horizontal ERP, I just wasn't doing that. And so I couldn't satisfy customers in that same way that when you have that you can when you have a deep [00:02:00] relationship and so moved into Verticalized SaaS and then got a call from unit four and I see in unit four and ERP, but one that is vertically specific and therefore has a chance to really understand its customers and build great things that are for them only. [00:02:16] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Great to hear. And we're going to cover a lot of ground in next few minutes. And from how the landscape is shifting for service businesses to how unit four is the thinking about challenges as and its customers. [00:02:30] And of course, we're going to talk about AI. And that's a big topic these days. So but, but I think if you're ready, we're gonna just dive in. So I'm gonna start with the first question. So what pressures are the CFOs, the CTOs, and the CEOs facing right now that are most shaping your product, Prioritizing and what has shifted, like what has changed the last 12 months? [00:03:00] [00:03:00] Jennifer Sherman: I mean, you know, I think this is it is a tough time to be in services right now. What we're seeing in both the commercial and the public sector and nonprofit space is this, you know, an increasing cost base. So in nonprofits, I read a study that said that 79% of nonprofits are seeing demand for their services rise, but the budget isn't right. And so they're being asked to do more. And that funding isn't coming in commensurate with that. European Professional [00:03:30] Services, 94% expect to see labor cost increase, but only 30% are expecting to see their margins increase. So so the math isn't working anymore. We've got these rising costs without the rising revenue or budget to meet that. And so we're at this point, I think, in services where we need to see a radical step change in efficiency in order to keep up with these rising, rising labor costs. And so it is a good thing that coming around the corner [00:04:00] is, is this new technology in AI that I think promises. And people say that I'm slightly exaggerating, but I think it's true. I think that AI could be for the services sector, what the industrial revolution was for production. Like, you know, in terms of a multiple and exponential multiplier of, of productivity. And so that is, you know, it is coming on the stage at the perfect time for, [00:04:30] for services companies. Now what's different because it was coming onto the stage a year ago as well. And I think what is different now than it was 12 months ago is that board level expectations around moving and starting to show the ROI is much louder. A year ago, we could get away with a lot of proof of concepts and conference room pilots. And the board is now saying, where's the ROI? Okay. What are you really doing? And what are you showing for that investment? And so [00:05:00] it's getting tougher to get new technology initiatives through which we understand costs are rising. Why are you adding every new initiative? It's going to fall under new scrutiny. [00:05:12] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Yeah. So I think yeah, that's really true. I see that it everything starts with the, the data and the quality and what can you get out of the AI. And that's quite what we see in our market also. But, but but if I go [00:05:30] into another question here how do you and this is kind of quite connected, but not directly as a seed, but how do you balance the need for innovation with the need for stability? Because like people are often worried about the stability and how how will this cater for us now? And how do you think about that when it comes to finance and the operation system? [00:06:00] Jennifer Sherman: Yeah, [00:06:00] I think it's become a really interesting framing that, that, that, and I see this in, in our client base as well, that we see this as, how do I balance? How do I balance and how do I price, which implies a prioritization? How am I going to prioritize stability versus innovation? Which I think implies that I've got to choose I've got to pick one over the other. And, you know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a bit of a binary construct. I can't do both at the same time. I think that [00:06:30] my concern in that conversation is what if what you're stabilizing is something legacy that actually isn't your path to modernization. Like if you are stabilizing on old technology that is not cloud ready and therefore not AI ready, you know, are you really stabilizing or are you actually kind of slowing down your ability to innovate? And so, you know, in my mind, I think the question really could be framed as how instead are you going to sequence sequence your modernization? [00:07:00] And you know, if you're, if what the conversation is, is, is how are we sequencing modernization, then yes, let's start by modernizing the things that are unstable. [00:07:11] Jennifer Sherman: But I don't want us to get caught up in the trap of stabilizing on old tech, stabilizing on yesterday. If that yesterday isn't going to set you up for the future. And the other thing that I, I, I think about in that, in that world is we often see technologies like ERP as being, [00:07:30] you know, the past and intention with intention and contention in competition for your attention with initiatives like AI. And, and they're forecasting, you know, AI is more risky. Erp is more, more safe. And it's a choice you're going to have to make. And I think that AI inside of a modern well-governed ERP is probably a lot safer than AI, that you would bolt on to the top and try to automate on some fragmented and inconsistent data. And so I think the conversation [00:08:00] and the way to think about this framing about innovation versus stability is really what does that path to innovation need to look like? And does every step along the way both stabilize, but also set me up for a more modern future? [00:08:15] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Yeah, I think that's a, that's a really good point because I, you tend to see a lot of customers get kind of buried in the, the, how, how have we been doing this for years? And yeah, but we need to think a little [00:08:30] bit new and we need to reframe how we think around these systems, perhaps. Yeah, that's a good point. So but how do you see the role of the CFO? We are, We are often talking to the CFO in in when we are talking about new sales, when we're talking about existing business, the CFO is kind of our go to person. But but and how is [00:09:00] it changing for them in a digital first service organization? What capabilities are becoming known negotiable? [00:09:09] Jennifer Sherman: Yeah, I, you know, it's an interesting time to be a CFO these days, I think. And this is particularly in the mid-market, which is, which is the market that we serve because you're talking about, particularly in services and public sector and nonprofits and mid-market, these aren't organizations with CTOs or with really strong and elaborate technology teams and technology agendas. And [00:09:30] so we're starting to see that fall on the shoulders of the CFO. Deloitte did a study in Europe that found that 57% of CFOs now cite the digital transformation Transformation is part of their remit from the board, which means the CFO is almost becoming the chief digital officer, which makes sense, because now we're all talking about the ROI of every digital transformation and every AI initiative you're going to turn to the CFO for, for credibility and to, to drive that conversation. [00:10:00] But that means that this, this persona, who, you know, number one, by the way, in mid-market, 69% of them are of CFOs are still spending more than five hours a week building their own reports, right? That means, you know, someone who is in the mid-market still stuck. [00:10:20] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Trying. [00:10:20] Jennifer Sherman: To make sense of their data, is also now accountable for their digital transformation, their AI transformation. That's a tough job to have. Yeah, it's tough because, you know, [00:10:30] CFOs don't grow up in the world of digital transformation and technology. It's tough because, you know, in the mid-market they clearly don't have the bandwidth. And in the mid-market, the signs are saying they also aren't ready from a data underpinnings perspective to our last question. And so it is a changing role. It is a role in which you are now expected to become a transformation, a transformation officer, a digital and technology strategist, as well as the steward of the funds of an organization. I do not envy [00:11:00] CFOs right now. As we try and I think what we as a technology community owe them is a way to make these these options and these paths more accessible, more understandable to the layman, more accessible in terms of the cost to implement and more obvious in terms of the value that we deliver. That's what we owe them because they're going through a tough time. [00:11:23] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Yeah, really, really tough time. And I think that like it's a really good point that [00:11:30] they have always had this tough job. They have always been on the front line, right? Be behind the CEO and they have a tough operational work, as well as handling all these RFP and doing all this analyst stuff. But, but so, so do you think that they have the, do you think that they do they have the competence to actually do this to, to [00:12:00] buy a new system? Some do celebrate a little bit about it. Do you think that? [00:12:09] Jennifer Sherman: I think it depends on the strategy that they choose. If you were going to try, if your organization decides to piecemeal start assembling something and, oh, I like this over here and that looks interesting over there. And oh, that was a good pitch over there. You are going to be in over your head very quickly. I think that there are smart, practical ways to go about it. Like talk to the partners you already have, they better have [00:12:30] an AI agenda or else really, should they be your partners? Yeah. What do you have for me? How can you make this affordable for me. How do you make this, you know, both affordable in terms of the, the, the cost to acquire, but affordable in terms of my organization's ability to digest it. So I think that there are paths through relationships. You already have implementations, you've already done that are probably a lot easier and probably just as transformational as the new sexy thing you could layer on top. [00:12:59] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: So [00:13:00] yeah, and of course they have to they have to be, find good advisors around. Yes. To get this in. So. Okay. But yeah, so, so if I, if I dive into another thing here what, what, what teams define your current product roadmap and, and what are the threads connecting them? [00:13:27] Jennifer Sherman: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, first, second, and third is AI, right? [00:13:30] It's 2020. Yeah. [00:13:31] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: I was just thinking you're gonna say AI. [00:13:36] Jennifer Sherman: If we unpack that and think about what we're seeing in the market and what we're doing you know, to your last question, I'm seeing a lot of here's an agent you can slap on top of stuff. Here's an agent that will make this, here's an agent that will make this faster. Just bolt it right on. And you know, to be honest, those are easy to deliver. And we're doing some of it too. But we're bifurcating our work and thinking about there are two types of users [00:14:00] in the ERP. There's the user like me, who logs in as little as possible to do, you know, the work that I have to do approving people's time off or approving a purchase, or recording my own vacation, or recording my timesheets, like these very transactional quick items. I, I don't even remember how to do them every time I log in. Would rather never log into the ERP at all. Right. There's that category of user me. And then there's the people whose deep work and whose craft is [00:14:30] in the ERP, the payroll manager, the the budgetary analyst, the, you know, the purchasing agent. Those people do a lot of deep work in an ERP. And for them, it's not like the casual user. How do we not make them log in at all? For the people of the deep work, it's how do we make that work smarter and faster and so on. The an AI can solve both of them, but it takes some different types of technologies. So on for that casual user. [00:15:00] [00:15:00] Jennifer Sherman: Our goal is to release agents that can communicate with you in Microsoft Teams or in other places. So you don't have to log into the ERP that could serve up work that will say, you know, Lars, you've got a purchase order. You have it approved for two weeks now, can we get on that or you didn't do your timesheets again, this is what I see in your calendar. Just tell me about those and we'll do it. Or it's, you know, I've got a question about my payslip. How do I avoid calling HR for that. And so we're releasing a set of capabilities under the moniker of Ava [00:15:30] who is our kind of digital agent and assistant. Yeah. And you and she will give you work in teams and you can respond in teams and you never need to log into the ERP. Right? Just get that work done wherever you are, because you're probably already in teams talking and doing work anyway. Get it out of the way. Yeah. And that's the easy part. But for the deep worker you know, as we started thinking about how do we really make that work smarter? How do we augment that experience? We very quickly hit a point where just slapping an agent on it isn't [00:16:00] going to add a lot of value. Because that agent doesn't necessarily understand your environment, your language, your terms. And so what we are doing instead with our ERP on our, on our latest generation platform, ERP is building a semantic layer into the ERP itself that is teaching the ERP what its data means. [00:16:24] Jennifer Sherman: The content, how, how context matters, how data in one table relates to data and another relates to data. [00:16:30] Another what it actually means to a user and their vocabulary. And that differs by industry that we serve. Not all services businesses are the same. Also building into that layer an understanding of what agents can do and can't do. And that's not just in general. An agent can't approve a purchase over order over €1 million. But if the agent isn't sure if the, if the information isn't, if the information isn't certain, if the stakes are this, if the type of purchase [00:17:00] is this, you're allowed to do this and you're not allowed to do that. What is the box that that agent lives in? So we're building an understanding of what the business does, what the data means, and what is acceptable for an AI to do and not to do into the into the system. So that when I, as a deep user need help as when I, as a deep user want to delegate work out to an AI system, that system understands the work. And for us, that is that [00:17:30] is going to be hugely transformational because it's not just about automation of, of human steps, it's about augmentation to and making people more effective. And we couldn't do that with just a layered on agent. It took an architectural change in the system to build AI into it rather than layering it on top. [00:17:48] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: But like, that sounds really exciting. And then you can get really cool stuff done with AI inside the system and like really utilize [00:18:00] the powers. So really, because we also talk a lot about when we are out with our clients talking about AI, there is I, I've seen the clear, the shift now and around trust how we set guardrails, context, everything is just like this is a perfect for, for us as a partner. This is like, this is where we want you 100%. And you know. [00:18:30] Jennifer Sherman: We [00:18:30] understand in, in our world that a, a grant is not the same as an award is not the same as a client engagement, right? Even though, you know, the view from the balcony says, yeah, those are all projects. I'm a nonprofit. I've got donors who, who have made stipulations that I have to comply with. If I'm a, if I'm a municipal employee you know, that that grant, that award has, has budgetary obligations that are different from regular funds. If I'm, and if I'm, you know, professional services employee, the [00:19:00] way that work is scheduled, the way the revenue is recognized is different than, than in the other three. And so it's important for us as a vendor to be able to define out all of our data in a way that is vertically relevant. And to your point on partners to give partners a place to expand that definition even further, right? Because there, there are, there are things that Ariba Tech sets up for their for our joint clients that uniform may not know about. You know Lexie feel that means this thing and that's. And [00:19:30] when this and when it exceeds this value, it's really bad. And this is who needs to be notified and this is what needs to be done. Right. And so we've got to build, we've got to build, you know, horizontal knowledge of the ERP vertical knowledge of the space and then allow partners and clients to build in their own specific business cases and terminology and policies into the system. And so we've got to have a repository for all of that. If AI is going to be in any way effective at automating our [00:20:00] lives beyond the happy path, you know? [00:20:03] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Yeah. And yeah, like it needs to be open. You need to have the API, the MCP servers, everything needs to be reachable from the outside. Yes. Then you can really automate really really exciting there, there, there is a, there's, there's a lot of things that we could talk about around AI and but, but when it beyond AI [00:20:30] and because I think we have covered it quite a great now but beyond AI, how do you, how is your data and analytics vision evolving? What should a CFO and sorry. [00:20:45] Jennifer Sherman: It's an interesting question to say beyond AI, how is your data evolving? Because I think AI is about to blow up a lot of what we think about data. Yeah, yeah. And how we think about serving it up. I think [00:20:57] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: I think because it, it maybe [00:21:00] it's just the other way around because to have good AI, you need to have that good data foundation. Like without that it's nothing. So correct. [00:21:11] Jennifer Sherman: Any system on top of bad data is not going to give you the right answer. Yeah. But I, I think so I think AI So your success with AI is going to 100% depend on your data strategy and how clean that data is and how fresh that data is and how well you understand it. If you can't get [00:21:30] an answer out of the system today, if you're one of the CFOs who spends five hours building custom reports, I promise you AI is not going to get it out of there either. So, you know, you're not going to automate your way out of a data problem. And AI is not going to make that. It's going to make that higher stakes. Hopefully there will be some tools that will make your help us help keep your data cleaner. What I do think AI is going to blow up is analytics and how we think about serving up that information [00:22:00] to individuals. I think it's going to democratize access to information and access to dashboards and access to quick answers for people. So I think it has this sort of revolutionary impact on your user base in terms of their ability to make more data driven decisions. But it has just made the cleanup of that data so much more critical. And so, you know, at unit four, to your question on roadmap, in addition to like building out a really solid sort of semantic layer for AI [00:22:30] enablement, we're also looking at our own data strategy and how do we make it easy for our clients to pull data into unit four so that our AI can use it, but also to extract, we understand that we're not the only system our clients use. [00:22:42] Jennifer Sherman: How do we make it easier for them to extract data out of unit four into their data warehouse or lake of choice? So we've got a new product coming out this summer called Data Hub, which is our kind of data management offering that helps us, for our clients that want [00:23:00] to extract data into a lake or a warehouse makes that better, easier, more schedulable determine, you know, how much data goes over when, etc.. And then for our clients are using us for AI, that is the basis of our AI offering as well. So so yes, we're thinking about it. We're here to help our clients on their journey. Because it's self-serving because if you can, if we can, if we can help our clients clean up the data, we can add a lot more value as well. So we understand our role in [00:23:30] that, in that value creation for our clients. [00:23:35] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: But it's like it, it also opens up a lot of questions around accessibility security, privacy when it comes to like. [00:23:47] Jennifer Sherman: It will, I think it's going to be an interesting time. We, we, we even see it at unit four. I'm hearing lots of podcasts about it. As these individual entrepreneurs in your organization rise up and start building their own dashboards because [00:24:00] suddenly everyone can we all functioning on the same definitions. Does my dashboard use a different cutoff than your dashboard? And therefore I get a different story. And so it's going to, I think we're going to see a scramble where the CIO or CFO or whoever is responsible for your internal digital footprint today is going to be behind these. The folks who have AI and are just running, running to build their own applications, running to build their own dashboards. [00:24:30] I think that we're going to have a time where folks are scrambling to figure out how do we secure our data? How do we ensure that you're not, you know, going off to some free web server because you want to host this little thing that you've built, and you've now exposed the data outside of the outside of the firewall. So we've got, I think tough days for, for CFO, CIO who are trying to ensure security and process around people who have just been given the most powerful [00:25:00] set of tools known to man that can be used to build things without a lot of technical or security understanding. Yeah. [00:25:07] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: But yeah, I will, I will go a little bit further into that. Another question because like, we have a lot of talk about this in Norway now, like, where are my data? Which country is my data in? Where is my various AI sending my data, you know all these questions and there's, there's a lot to [00:25:30] cover there. So I think yeah, but yeah. [00:25:34] Jennifer Sherman: I've got an American accent and I've gotta be the one talking about data sovereignty. Yes. I think I think whether it is due to the geopolitical, I mean, it is partly in, in part due to the geopolitical instability we're seeing in this world. But partly just, you know, there are some very loud, clear lawsuits and violations [00:26:00] of, of the AI act. And, and I think we're, you know, we're seeing, we're seeing cases where even in well-intentioned businesses AI might be used for for harmful work. We're also seeing cases where, you know, your data, whether intentionally not or for, for malicious reasons or not, is being used to train you know, for things that you can't necessarily control. And this is bringing the conversation about data sovereignty to a, you know [00:26:30] to new degrees of, of volume. We're watching it all. I think also the, the, the legislative landscape is changing the kind of, you know, EU AI act is, is sort of evolving as well. It is an interesting space to watch. And I think that everyone looking at applications today needs to be talking to their vendor about data sovereignty data security. Where is my data [00:27:00] going? And, and would it be safe and will I be able to access it? All super valid questions that every technology company needs to be able to answer to the degree which you are comfortable. Yeah. [00:27:13] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Yeah. And and especially like in our in, in Norway where public sector is really far on the travel to the cloud. [00:27:24] Jennifer Sherman: So yeah, Norway is definitely like, is ahead of much of Europe [00:27:30] in, in both their cloud transformation as well as general technology transformation, you know, and we're seeing slightly different dynamics in the UK where a lot of the regulation governs the structure of your data, which kind of drives some interesting innovation and industry use cases, which is different from Netherlands where the, the, the legislation and the regulations kind of drive different, you know, frankly, information architectures and IT architectures. And, you know, we're seeing [00:28:00] kind of the rest of Europe all on their pace to move into the cloud. We're all kind of on the journey that Norway has been on for a while, but different countries, due to different regulatory environments taking different paths to get there. It's, it's going to be an interesting space to watch and see what best practices evolve out of Norway. By the way, their data transparency policies and procedures have been very clean and modern. What UK is doing around data structures, [00:28:30] what Netherlands is doing around data security. It'll be interesting to watch all of those converge and what the rest of the world and the rest of Europe can learn from those slightly different paths that each one of those countries have taken. [00:28:42] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Yeah. And then that that brings us into the next question. Across Norway, UK, and continental Europe, where do you see most of the momentum? And you just mentioned that Norway is up there. Is there any other like any other things you would like to [00:29:00] mention around the public sector in those countries? [00:29:04] Jennifer Sherman: You know, I, you know, I the I think the rest of the Nordics kind of catching up to Norway. So I'm, I, I, I like watching cloud technologies evolve in that space because there always seem to be a few steps ahead. But hey, I think the strongest European native AI solution out there is coming out of France and Mistral. So it'll be interesting to see if Mistral [00:29:30] provides a credible alternative to the Americans. Should the Americans prove unwilling to kind of play ball with the data sovereignty requirements of the rest of Europe? Or does this drive us to a bring your own model solution for, for AI such that a client could host it themselves? Really the, you know, best way to ensure data sovereignty. [00:29:56] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Yeah. [00:29:57] Jennifer Sherman: Yeah. So I'm, I'm watching the Nordics [00:30:00] and Norway in terms of where customer behavior goes. I'm actually watching France in terms of of AI technologies, although I think Germany is about to give him a run for their money. [00:30:09] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: So okay. Yeah. So they are. But yeah, of course they, they are a big country with a lot of muscles. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We are just, we are just tagging, tagging, tagging along. [00:30:23] Jennifer Sherman: I wouldn't call Norway tagging along. I think they're way out in front and kind [00:30:30] of jogging. Yeah. [00:30:31] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Yeah. But but I think the reason why we are there is because that it has been really clear signal from the governmental agencies that the cloud is the way to go. There is no alternative. And so, so so that's yeah. And yeah. [00:30:47] Jennifer Sherman: And the transparency has given the world a front row seat to that, which has been really great. Really good to watch. Yeah. [00:30:56] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Good. Yeah. That's good to hear. So [00:31:00] if you go into another question here, what advice would you give an executive reviewing their ERP strategy for 2026 and beyond? What, what kind of is the and I have a, what is the first question or what is the most important question? [00:31:26] Jennifer Sherman: You know, I think the first question a, a, a, an [00:31:30] organization staring down the face of a, of an ERP implementation or frankly, any big technology project is what are the gains we expect to get out of this? And how are we going to build an infrastructure from the start to start tracking those? Because a lot of people, I mean, there's a lot of, oh, we hope to save some time. Well, how much time and are you measuring the time that it takes today so that we can measure the time? Like let's, let's actually hold ourselves and our technology partners accountable for real gains. I think [00:32:00] I okay. Erp. My first job out of university was ERP. And, and I, I think, and I'm, I'm older than I look. Better living through chemistry. I'm older than I look. And I think that in a lot of cases, you know, ERP was heralded as this like great opportunity for, for for efficiency and it was going to save you all sorts of time. That was the promise of ERP. But open up any ERP screen. I could tell you more about the data model [00:32:30] of that software than I can about the process that the user actually goes through. [00:32:34] Jennifer Sherman: It wasn't designed for the efficiency of the user. It was designed to get data in ideally quickly. And so I think, you know, AI, the new technologies coming online, they promise to actually help ERP deliver on its promise of efficiency. And so I think the, the, the name of the game for the CFO, who's generally the person accountable for these implementations is what efficiency are you going to demand, and how are you going to hold the team accountable for seeing [00:33:00] those efficiencies? So that's number one. Number one question. What am I trying to do and get out of this? This isn't just a thing I have to do. Erp is not a tax. It should be a benefit. You know, my, my second is and vendors are super guilty of this. We all think that the journey is over on the day of go live and maybe we'll give you a couple weeks of some warranty and we'll call you back if you've got a problem. [00:33:24] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: But there's. [00:33:26] Jennifer Sherman: There's this celebration at go live, or maybe it's a celebration [00:33:30] two weeks after and we're like, yay, it's done. No, it's just begun. It's like a romantic comedy that ends at the first kiss. Like, no, that's. [00:33:39] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Not a. [00:33:40] Jennifer Sherman: Relationship. And so, you know, how do you think about the first year and how are you going to keep celebrating the team and their milestones and their gains? And how are you going to keep investing in them? Because the change management really begins that that go live day. Yeah. So I think we need to kind of rethink how we tell the narrative of implementations and what [00:34:00] we call success. And then finally, I think, you know, how, how do we as a technology community show support to the CFO or the CR or the CHO or whoever these, these, these leaders are how do we make those implementations less of the, you know, the, the open heart surgery kind of drama that they have been in the past. You [00:34:30] know, we know that they're big and we know that they, they change a lot. And we know that no two ERPs function alike and these are large investments, but we've got to make it easier. We've got to make them not massive implementations. We've got to make them as cookie cutter as possible. We have to do a better job of holding our clients hands through it. They know their business. They don't know ERP, nor should they have to. So how do we make these implementations more digestible. How do we deliver software that is easier to use? Requires less [00:35:00] training. And how do we actually ensure that we understand and take care of each and every user persona and their journey through the system? And that's on us. How do like we've just got to make ERP an easier project and not the, you know, massive multi millions of euros and multi-year endeavours. [00:35:18] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: And actually, I actually think we could learn a little bit from the new and smaller ERP that are not in our competition, but like are in the lower market. They're kind [00:35:30] of have. I agree. Yeah, they do they do a lot of good stuff there around how to get get it in and get it moving and get value out fast. Yeah. Because they know that if they don't get value out, they will be out the door the next week. [00:35:48] Jennifer Sherman: Exactly. If you want to know how to do onboarding, right, You do have to look at the guys who cater to small businesses because they don't have time. They don't have money, they don't have the people. It needs to go in quick and work. [00:36:00] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Yeah, [00:36:00] yeah, yeah. [00:36:01] Jennifer Sherman: I agree with that. I agree with that assessment. I tell my designers that too. [00:36:05] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Yeah, yeah. So but what, what makes a transformation program a success when so many don't, don't. Our success. [00:36:19] Jennifer Sherman: I think. [00:36:20] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: I've talked a little bit about it, but. [00:36:22] Jennifer Sherman: If you're not measuring, how are you going to know if it was a success? I think most transformation projects fail because we don't we weren't clear [00:36:30] on what it is. We were trying to get out of it in the in the first place. And so like, it didn't feel good, you know, that doesn't mean it was a success or failure. I think we also, we we as human beings love to overpromise and under-deliver. Right. And so we've just got to be realistic. Keep it in a box. Maybe we use the word transformation too often. We're not all here to become butterflies. We just have to make sure our accounts payable work and money [00:37:00] gets out the door. [00:37:01] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Yeah. [00:37:03] Jennifer Sherman: We could think smaller if we could think more modularly with goals in mind. Than than these change efforts wouldn't be as large and we wouldn't be dealing with all of the change fatigue which people are going through in an AI enabled world. [00:37:19] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah, that's really that's a good, good point. It's not easy. Maybe transformation. [00:37:30] We need another word. [00:37:33] Jennifer Sherman: Transformation. [00:37:34] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Yeah. Adjustment. [00:37:37] Jennifer Sherman: Yes. [00:37:38] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Yeah. Business model a little bit. So we are They are starting to reach the the end there. So I just have a few we call them rapid fire or rapid questions, but the answers can be [00:38:00] long. You don't have to. Yeah. No worries. But I can. [00:38:03] Jennifer Sherman: Take my time. All right. [00:38:05] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Yeah. So. But in in one sentence, what should a CFO expect from ERP over the next three years? Or what do you think? And this is not a sentence. Let's have a proper answer here. Now. [00:38:24] Jennifer Sherman: My hope is that they kind of disappear. And it's hard to say as a chief product officer [00:38:30] of ERP. I, you know, it's of all of the verticals and spaces that I've worked in, ERP is the one who wakes up in the morning saying, yay, I get to log into the ERP, but I haven't met someone who wakes up. Like just, I can't wait, I can't wait. And I get it. And it's depressing as a product manager, but I don't think it's one we're going to solve. I think the solve is you shouldn't have to log into the ERP. I think, you know, my [00:39:00] goal is that you don't you don't think about it that way. It's not this place you have to go to get an answer or to do a task. My goal is that it is an experience. It's always around you so that you never have to think about it. If it needs something, it should just reach out to you. Team's email however you choose to be communicated. Maybe it pops a message on your phone and you should be able to answer it and get back to your work, right? On the casual user side, I shouldn't think about it. [00:39:26] Jennifer Sherman: Things should just happen. And so I want ERP to disappear for [00:39:30] most users. And then on the, even on the busier, you know, the deeper work user, I don't want them to think of it as something they have to log in and go hunt down information. I want them to think of it as a team member That comes to them when it needs them, comes to them when when they need to be reminded or is there for them. Can have a conversation with them and do what it is they ask. So it should be a team member you can delegate to. It should be a team member you can trust, a team member [00:40:00] you can go to or that goes to you. But it shouldn't be a place you have to log in to, to find something or to tell it to like to do something. I think that relationship with the ERP needs to change from place. You go to person you trust person is too strong. [00:40:19] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: But I mean, finally getting the headless ERP. [00:40:24] Jennifer Sherman: Maybe it is headless. Is that the term? I think and like everywhere, but yes, yeah, maybe [00:40:30] maybe that is. [00:40:31] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Maybe maybe it was an old term that I. [00:40:34] Jennifer Sherman: Know, I know it is entirely the accurate term as well. Yeah. It's scary. Okay. Headless is scarier as a product person. Does that mean to me? I'm just going to be part of someone else's flow, but it doesn't matter. My goal is you don't have to think about logging into the ERP. [00:40:53] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Oh, oh, that's that's really inspiring. I don't see that [00:41:00] coming in the next three years, but maybe. [00:41:04] Jennifer Sherman: Product manager promising sooner than the reality. [00:41:09] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: But, but but I think the last question here then is there one myth about cloud ERP you'd like to correct? Or is there a saying out on the street that you would like to I think to argue against. [00:41:32] Jennifer Sherman: This [00:41:30] is completely inappropriate metaphor to use. When I, when I first moved in with my partner, he is one of those, you have to clean the house before the housekeepers come. People, and I'm one of those. The house is messy. The housekeeper should come. People. I think it's the same about ERP. I think there's a misconception is I've got. I've got to be ready. I've got to clean my house. I've got to have my data ready. I have to understand my processes. They have to be documented. And I am not ready for an ERP until I [00:42:00] have, you know, a binder of SOPs and all of my data in the right place. And the truth is that, you know, part of an ERP implementation can be to do that. And, and it's like, it's like moving house. Maybe it's not a housekeeper metaphor, maybe it's moving house. I didn't have to purge everything in advance when the moving box was there. I have something in my hand. I know if it needs to go to the new house or if this is garbage that can stay here. And so, you know, I think the process of moving can help you get ready and can help you [00:42:30] clean up. If you wait until you are ready, you'll never go. No. And so just go and, and trust that if you've got the right partner, they'll help you do the cleaning and the purging and whatever needs to happen through that process. [00:42:47] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: I totally agree. This is like nobody's ever ready for this. [00:42:54] Speaker 4: No, you'll never know. [00:42:57] Jennifer Sherman: Just like your house will never be clean enough for a housekeeper and [00:43:00] your stuff. [00:43:00] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: No no no. [00:43:02] Jennifer Sherman: Move. Sometimes you just have to do it anyway. [00:43:08] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Okay. But Thanks. This was This was fun. Good. And I think I learned a few things today also. So that's good. I'm glad. Yeah, yeah. Really nice to talk to you, Jennifer. And hope we can do it again when you have some new and shiny [00:43:30] products out there. [00:43:31] Jennifer Sherman: I will come back when the day you call. [00:43:34] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Yeah. Great. [00:43:36] Jennifer Sherman: I appreciate. [00:43:36] Speaker 4: It. [00:43:37] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Bye bye. [00:43:39] Jennifer Sherman: Take care. You're on mute. [00:43:45] Speaker 4: Yeah. Sorry. [00:43:46] Speaker 1: That was awesome. Yeah. [00:43:49] Jennifer Sherman: Do you want us to rerecord? Was there any question? [00:43:51] Speaker 1: No, I think I think it was really, really good. Very natural. Okay. I got. [00:43:58] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: The cleaners in the background. [00:44:00] [00:44:00] Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw that, and I was. I will zoom in. Jennifer. Because actually Jennifer was talking there and I was making notes. I love like the rom com [00:44:13] Jennifer Sherman: Rom com. [00:44:14] Speaker 1: Comparison. I think that's a very good hook because it's very different. So I was making notes. I have blogged tomorrow to start editing. I will send you what I have tomorrow. Probably not the [00:44:30] finished product, but so you can have a look. But yeah, I think it was really, really good. So thank you. Thank you so much. [00:44:37] Jennifer Sherman: You need us back on to record. I will not have this background or this shirt, but if we'll figure something out if you need us back on. No. [00:44:48] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Thank you so much. Yeah, I feel I felt like there was some stumbling around with the language, but I felt that it went good. Yeah, I. [00:44:57] Jennifer Sherman: Didn't feel I didn't feel you sounded. [00:45:00] Speaker 1: Very [00:45:00] natural. It was a lot of a very good connection between you two. So I think it's from my end. It will amazingly well. So thank you. [00:45:10] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Well, next time we will take it live. You know. [00:45:13] Jennifer Sherman: Why not? [00:45:14] Speaker 1: We didn't need to repeat. [00:45:17] Jennifer Sherman: Completely inappropriate. Bad enough that I was like, romantic comedies and moving and my partner like, what's the queen before? [00:45:25] Speaker 1: So that makes it really natural. [00:45:27] Jennifer Sherman: Inappropriate. [00:45:29] Speaker 1: But yeah. [00:45:30] Anyway, I'll send it to you, obviously, before we publish. So if there's anything you'd like to remove. [00:45:35] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Yeah. And I think that like to be, I think it's for the Nordic audience like that, the way of being, talking and doing, maybe saying some inappropriate things. It lands very good if. So because they are, they don't like that very structured corporate. [00:46:00] Okay. So yeah. [00:46:03] Jennifer Sherman: I should have. [00:46:03] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Said. [00:46:04] Jennifer Sherman: More inappropriate in the beginning. [00:46:08] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: If you didn't say anything that like like that's wrong or. But I don't think so. [00:46:15] Jennifer Sherman: I'll take it. [00:46:16] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Yeah. Really good talk. So I'm happy. [00:46:21] Jennifer Sherman: I'm good. All right. [00:46:22] Speaker 1: Thank you. Have a safe flight. [00:46:24] Jennifer Sherman: You, too. Oh. Well, not enjoy the rest of the guys. [00:46:27] Lars Hugo Braadland Olsen: Okay. Thank you. [00:46:29] Jennifer Sherman: Bye bye.