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Charge it To The Game: with Jemele Hill · QUESTION EVERYTHING

0:04
Speaker 1: Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
0:08
Speaker 1: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe and each week my guests
0:12
Speaker 1: and I have conversations that put a new spin on
0:15
Speaker 1: pretty this is pretty smart. Today, I'm talking to one
0:20
Speaker 1: of my favorite journalists, Jammel Hill. She's an Emmy winning
0:27
Speaker 1: sports journalist who spent twelve years with ESPN. And it's
0:31
Speaker 1: not so much what she covers, but for me, it's
0:34
Speaker 1: how she covers it. I know I'm going to read
0:37
Speaker 1: or watch something valuable In a world that is so
0:40
Speaker 1: consumed with nonsense, Jammel Hill lives and works above the noise.
0:45
Speaker 1: You know, sports media isn't known for being controversial or
0:49
Speaker 1: even inherently political, but in twenty seventeen, she made her
0:53
Speaker 1: mark in shifting that landscape with one single tweet. You
0:56
Speaker 1: may remember her headline making moment when she tweeted about
0:59
Speaker 1: then President Donald Trump, calling him a white supremacist. The
1:03
Speaker 1: White House called on ESPN to fire her, and Jammel
1:06
Speaker 1: received death threats and I can only imagine much more.
1:09
Speaker 2: But those who had hoped.
1:10
Speaker 1: To silence her quickly learned that Jammel is a woman
1:13
Speaker 1: who is not afraid to say what's on her mind.
1:17
Speaker 1: She's not afraid to have the conversation that everyone else
1:19
Speaker 1: is avoiding. She's a woman and a person of conviction.
1:25
Speaker 1: She left ESPN in twenty eighteen, and now she's doing
1:28
Speaker 1: things on her own terms and making more money than
1:31
Speaker 1: ever before. She's a writer for The Atlantic, podcast host
1:36
Speaker 1: creator of the podcast network Unbothered, which is a partnership
1:39
Speaker 1: with Spotify, highlighting black female voices both in front.
1:42
Speaker 2: And behind the microphone.
1:44
Speaker 1: And she's the author of a new memoir, Aupill, a
1:47
Speaker 1: book she said she never wanted to write. You've said
1:56
Speaker 1: that Detroit is built into the fabric of who you are.
2:00
Speaker 2: I love that.
2:00
Speaker 1: I feel like geography actually plays a big role in
2:03
Speaker 1: who people become.
2:05
Speaker 2: What about you is so Detroit?
2:07
Speaker 3: Well, if people notice, I mean, I guess you could
2:10
Speaker 3: say this to a degree about everybody is that everybody
2:13
Speaker 3: puts on for their city. But I feel like if
2:16
Speaker 3: you're from Detroit, you put on even harder because Detroit
2:19
Speaker 3: often does not get the attention that other major cities get.
2:23
Speaker 3: You know, we don't get the attention of New York
2:25
Speaker 3: or Chicago. Our sisters, yes, yes, the not to Chicago,
2:31
Speaker 3: and so you know, we don't get that love of
2:34
Speaker 3: an La or Miami. So when we go hard, we
2:37
Speaker 3: go hard, and because of that, we have this chip
2:41
Speaker 3: on our shoulders, you know, we feel the inferiority complex.
2:45
Speaker 3: But it also works to our benefit because it makes
2:48
Speaker 3: you want to grind and you want to show people
2:51
Speaker 3: that not only good things can come from Detroit, but
2:53
Speaker 3: that we have a different sense and work ethic than
2:56
Speaker 3: other places.
2:57
Speaker 4: You know, everybody in Detroit got a hustle.
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Speaker 3: That's just that's that's just how we grew up, that's
3:01
Speaker 3: how we're raised. And I think the fact that we
3:03
Speaker 3: have such a you know, blue collar culture, being that
3:06
Speaker 3: the auto industry is you know, positioned and headquartered in Detroit.
3:11
Speaker 3: You know, that kind of bleeds into your personality. It's
3:13
Speaker 3: like you grow up knowing that you have to prove yourself,
3:16
Speaker 3: that you have to work hard, that you have a
3:17
Speaker 3: grit and a determination, and so all those things are
3:20
Speaker 3: very much fused into my DNA.
3:23
Speaker 1: That grit is something I feel from all my Detroit friends.
3:27
Speaker 1: And there's a groundedness too, like, no matter where you
3:31
Speaker 1: guys go, you're the same person you've always been.
3:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, I heard that from a lot of people, and
3:36
Speaker 3: that makes me feel good because everybody usually tells me like, oh,
3:40
Speaker 3: I know somebody from Detroit.
3:41
Speaker 4: Detroit people are the best.
3:42
Speaker 3: I think it's a combination of not just how we
3:46
Speaker 3: are raised in the city, but also the Midwest, as
3:49
Speaker 3: you know, like it's just different. You know, there's a
3:52
Speaker 3: different sense of value, of different sense of priorities in
3:55
Speaker 3: the Midwest, and we are generally friendly, I think, And
3:59
Speaker 3: so I think so yeah, I mean I found in
4:02
Speaker 3: Chicago people to be wonderful, so relatives in Chicago, and
4:05
Speaker 3: so you know, I think just culturally the Midwest is nicer.
4:09
Speaker 4: No, this is everywhere else, but.
4:11
Speaker 2: It is best.
4:13
Speaker 4: I will say, we're a little more friendly.
4:15
Speaker 1: So you wrote, my parents had a lot of drug
4:18
Speaker 1: issues when I was growing up. And the one thing
4:20
Speaker 1: I loved about writing is that if you don't like
4:22
Speaker 1: your reality, it allows you.
4:23
Speaker 2: To create a new one.
4:25
Speaker 1: I love that you are a writer first. It's one
4:28
Speaker 1: of my favorite things. When I was researching for this interview.
4:31
Speaker 1: I can tell you truly love it. You don't just
4:34
Speaker 1: put that on your bio because it's like a thing
4:37
Speaker 1: that you do.
4:38
Speaker 2: How did writing create this new reality for you?
4:41
Speaker 3: So writing is something I've loved from the beginning. As
4:45
Speaker 3: a child, two things I love to do read and
4:48
Speaker 3: to write, which sounds very basic, but I was a
4:50
Speaker 3: voracious reader and I also love to write fiction and poetry.
4:54
Speaker 4: I just really took to language in general.
4:56
Speaker 3: And when you read a book, it does transpor into
5:00
Speaker 3: another place. Really good books, you know, you get lost
5:03
Speaker 3: to them. It's a reason why they say that. And
5:05
Speaker 3: even though I know people see the ESPN resume and
5:09
Speaker 3: some of the other things I've done, I didn't come
5:11
Speaker 3: to ESPN as a television personality. I came there as
5:14
Speaker 3: a writer and that was what I did and have
5:17
Speaker 3: done the bulk of my career, despite the television success
5:20
Speaker 3: I've been fortunate.
5:21
Speaker 4: Enough to experience.
5:22
Speaker 3: So with writing, it was not only just about expressing myself,
5:26
Speaker 3: but it was also about telling stories and imagination. And
5:30
Speaker 3: when you grow up in some of the challenging circumstances
5:33
Speaker 3: that I did with MO both my parents being recovering addicts,
5:37
Speaker 3: writing was very much a refuge for me.
5:39
Speaker 4: It was a safe haven for me.
5:40
Speaker 3: I could create without boundaries or limits, and it was
5:45
Speaker 3: also a sounding board.
5:47
Speaker 4: You know. My my earliest writings, beyond.
5:49
Speaker 3: Just the fiction and the poetry, was keeping a journal
5:52
Speaker 3: and so at journal I was able to vent and
5:55
Speaker 3: to rage.
5:56
Speaker 4: And to observe and to do all these things that.
5:58
Speaker 3: I think are a very integral part of writing, you know,
6:02
Speaker 3: writing especially, I would say journalism in particular, which is
6:05
Speaker 3: what I obviously gravitated toward. Journalism is about curiosity. It's
6:10
Speaker 3: about wanting to know how the world works and why.
6:13
Speaker 3: And I tell younger journalists it's like, you can't really
6:15
Speaker 3: be a journalist if you aren't curious, if you don't
6:18
Speaker 3: walk down the street and say, hey, I wonder why.
6:20
Speaker 3: If you don't do that, you're in the wrong profession.
6:23
Speaker 3: And so I had the sense of wonder, curiosity and creativity,
6:27
Speaker 3: and because of that, journalism was just such a natural
6:31
Speaker 3: route for me to take.
6:33
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that you said creativity. What about
6:36
Speaker 1: creativity you think plays a role?
6:38
Speaker 4: Well, I can't do math, and I hate science.
6:40
Speaker 3: I mean, I admire science, and you science and believe
6:43
Speaker 3: in science, but oh God is so boring, right, you
6:46
Speaker 3: know what I'm saying. And math it was like, ooh mean,
6:49
Speaker 3: numbers do not get along. We are sworn enemies. Once
6:53
Speaker 3: you eliminate those two, like, what's left? Oh, that's right, righting?
6:57
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm big on critical thinking, big on reading,
7:00
Speaker 3: big on discovery, and I think creativity is a part
7:03
Speaker 3: of that. It's always easy for me to tap into
7:05
Speaker 3: my imagination and to use language to communicate sometimes the
7:10
Speaker 3: things that you can't do verbally.
7:11
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the beauty of it. And so I just
7:13
Speaker 4: said this.
7:14
Speaker 3: Recently to an author I was interviewing. Is that reading
7:18
Speaker 3: her fiction novels. Her name is adak A Lotte, and
7:21
Speaker 3: you know, she's written some amazing fiction novels.
7:23
Speaker 4: And I told her, I was like.
7:25
Speaker 3: You know, reading you made me realize writing is you
7:30
Speaker 3: answering the questions you can't.
7:31
Speaker 4: Say out loud. That's what writing is.
7:34
Speaker 3: And so that's what I've always tried to do, is
7:37
Speaker 3: like answer the questions I've always wondering that people wonder.
7:41
Speaker 3: And sometimes those questions aren't comfortable, but you want to
7:44
Speaker 3: answer and get to a truth when you write. And
7:47
Speaker 3: that's what writing represents for me.
7:50
Speaker 1: Do you because you're on TV all the time, do
7:53
Speaker 1: you find it easier to write down your thoughts versus
7:57
Speaker 1: because you seem like very easy to speak them.
8:01
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is.
8:02
Speaker 3: TV is just different. I mean, the medium is very
8:06
Speaker 3: instantly impactful. People when you write something might have to
8:09
Speaker 3: sit with it for a minute, or it just shifts
8:12
Speaker 3: them in a different way.
8:13
Speaker 4: With TV is much more thunderous.
8:15
Speaker 3: And so what I had to learn as especially during
8:18
Speaker 3: the early stages of my television career, is how to
8:21
Speaker 3: be succinct.
8:22
Speaker 4: Is how to be succinct?
8:23
Speaker 2: Give them radio people figure that out.
8:27
Speaker 3: I got to write, like you, you don't have a
8:29
Speaker 3: thousand words to explain. You got thirty seconds tops if
8:33
Speaker 3: you're lucky, and so you have to figure out how
8:35
Speaker 3: to do that. So it just forced me to use
8:38
Speaker 3: a different muscle, but it was all in sync with
8:41
Speaker 3: what you do and what.
8:42
Speaker 4: I should say. What I do as a journalist, it
8:44
Speaker 4: was the same thing but shorter.
8:46
Speaker 2: So come up with a bar, that's it.
8:48
Speaker 3: And I think it also helped because I never saw
8:51
Speaker 3: myself as a TV person. I was always a writer masquerading.
8:55
Speaker 4: As a TV person. And when you have.
8:57
Speaker 3: That mentality, I think you don't take TV as seriously,
9:02
Speaker 3: and by that I mean yourself seriously.
9:03
Speaker 4: I took TV itself seriously, the craft and understanding it.
9:07
Speaker 4: I didn't take myself seriously.
9:08
Speaker 3: And there are people, as you know, in television that
9:10
Speaker 3: tend to take themselves very seriously, and so I always
9:13
Speaker 3: had a natural comfort in front of the camera because
9:15
Speaker 3: I was only trying to be myself and that was it.
9:17
Speaker 2: That's such a good distinction.
9:19
Speaker 1: So you've actually been earning a living writing since you
9:22
Speaker 1: were fifteen, which is wild because most people can't earn
9:24
Speaker 1: a living writing.
9:25
Speaker 4: Ever, that is true.
9:27
Speaker 2: So how do you.
9:28
Speaker 1: Think that your life experiences as a kid gave you
9:32
Speaker 1: an edge? Because you see things in a very particular way,
9:35
Speaker 1: which is why people gravitate towards you.
9:38
Speaker 4: That's a really fascinating question.
9:40
Speaker 3: Is because your lived experience does shape you as a writer,
9:43
Speaker 3: and that's very true.
9:44
Speaker 4: So I think.
9:46
Speaker 3: I was able because I grew up in poverty, grew
9:50
Speaker 3: up again surrounded by addiction, you know, and other things
9:53
Speaker 3: in challenging neighborhoods. It allowed me to have a level
9:58
Speaker 3: of empathy because I know what I I had been through.
10:00
Speaker 3: I had been around people who had been through far
10:02
Speaker 3: worse and saw how their trauma played out in their
10:06
Speaker 3: lives consistently, and so it gives you a different sensibility.
10:11
Speaker 4: You know, when you write without.
10:12
Speaker 3: Empathy, then you're never going to reach a different place
10:16
Speaker 3: of understanding. And even if it was something that I
10:20
Speaker 3: could never have imagined for myself. If you just really
10:24
Speaker 3: do something as simple as putting yourself in somebody else's shoes,
10:27
Speaker 3: I think it's much easier to translate why something is
10:31
Speaker 3: important and mean something.
10:34
Speaker 4: I may not be able to identify with Lebron James
10:36
Speaker 4: physically because he's six's eight and.
10:38
Speaker 3: Two hundred and seventy pounds and is, you know, one
10:41
Speaker 3: of the greatest basketball players who ever played. When you
10:44
Speaker 3: read about how he grew up, you know, his mother,
10:46
Speaker 3: having him at fourteen or fifteen years old, living in
10:48
Speaker 3: eleven different houses, you can very much understand the pressure
10:52
Speaker 3: he's under or was under, you know, to be on
10:54
Speaker 3: the cover of Sports Illustrated at sixteen.
10:57
Speaker 2: And tools had to cultivate.
10:58
Speaker 4: Like right on the fly.
11:00
Speaker 2: Yeah.
11:00
Speaker 3: I mean he was given a hundred million dollars when
11:02
Speaker 3: he was eighteen years old. So you think about that,
11:05
Speaker 3: and you think about what he's become a successful husband
11:09
Speaker 3: and father and businessman. It's one of the most amazing
11:13
Speaker 3: sports stories, amazing American stories ever told.
11:17
Speaker 4: So I think the route to understand.
11:19
Speaker 3: Again is not necessarily and how talented he is, but
11:22
Speaker 3: understanding what drives him, and I can understand what drives
11:25
Speaker 3: him because it drove me. And so that's what I
11:28
Speaker 3: mean about, like, if you approach writing and understanding the
11:31
Speaker 3: people you're talking about from a position of empathy and
11:34
Speaker 3: understanding those other circumstances, it allows you to have more
11:38
Speaker 3: nuanced conversations about them. I mean that's not to say
11:41
Speaker 3: that people who oooh dude, Lebron doesn't fall into this category,
11:44
Speaker 3: but people who do, like really awful things. I mean,
11:46
Speaker 3: I don't I'm not saying that you don't go into
11:48
Speaker 3: it having a level of accountability either, But I do
11:51
Speaker 3: think the empathy is a core component when you write.
11:55
Speaker 1: As you said that, I kept thinking, that is exactly
11:58
Speaker 1: what differentiates your writing. I heard you talk about Michael
12:02
Speaker 1: Vick once and I was like, she's the only person
12:05
Speaker 1: that's speaking about this with nuance. There's so much more
12:08
Speaker 1: to that story than just he did something bad.
12:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean an empathy.
12:13
Speaker 3: It is the empathy. And I also, you know, you
12:16
Speaker 3: just follow the course of things. It's just like, Okay,
12:18
Speaker 3: he grew up in a subculture where fighting dogs was
12:22
Speaker 3: not wrong.
12:22
Speaker 4: He also is you know at that point.
12:26
Speaker 3: I mean, I think financially the lynchpin of his family,
12:28
Speaker 3: he is coming to more money than he ever thought possible,
12:32
Speaker 3: and between the pressures of family, the pressures of being
12:36
Speaker 3: a highly paid professional athlete.
12:38
Speaker 4: I'm not saying that these things drove him to dogfight.
12:40
Speaker 3: What I am saying is that, you know, a lot
12:43
Speaker 3: of people are trying to understand how somebody in that
12:45
Speaker 3: position could put it on the line for that, and
12:48
Speaker 3: that's the question you're trying to figure it out, and
12:50
Speaker 3: to figure out, you know, frankly, is that are we
12:53
Speaker 3: going to Some people will never forgive Michael Vick and
12:57
Speaker 3: are harder on him than they are on people who have,
13:00
Speaker 3: you know, no disrespected dolls, but harm. So, you know,
13:03
Speaker 3: I try to bring that level of understanding to it.
13:07
Speaker 3: But I have to say the one thing I do
13:08
Speaker 3: not miss about television because it was only always so
13:12
Speaker 3: important to me, I don't honestly miss having to come
13:15
Speaker 3: up with bite sized viewpoints on people where nuance is required.
13:20
Speaker 3: And what I love about writing is that it begs
13:24
Speaker 3: you for the nuance.
13:25
Speaker 4: TV doesn't like.
13:26
Speaker 3: Unless you are able to have an hour long show
13:29
Speaker 3: where you can go on and go any place you want,
13:31
Speaker 3: which nobody does because you're trying to keep everybody's attention.
13:34
Speaker 3: TV just doesn't give you that, And I have to
13:37
Speaker 3: say I do not miss on a daily basis having
13:39
Speaker 3: to put out soundbites about people I don't know.
13:43
Speaker 2: The podcast space has given me that. Do you feel
13:45
Speaker 2: that way?
13:45
Speaker 4: I feel that way.
13:46
Speaker 3: I love podcasting And the reason why when I left
13:50
Speaker 3: ESPN one of the first deals I signed was to
13:54
Speaker 3: do a podcast is because I missed the nuance. I
13:57
Speaker 3: miss being able to do this, miss having those convers
14:00
Speaker 3: and just the nature of podcasting lends itself to intimacy,
14:04
Speaker 3: which you don't get in TV. So it was the
14:06
Speaker 3: perfect platform for me. And I do a lot of things,
14:09
Speaker 3: but you know, the podcast really is a passion project.
14:13
Speaker 2: It's a sole thing it is.
14:15
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a perfect way to put it.
14:17
Speaker 2: I did not know you love baseball so much.
14:19
Speaker 4: I did. Look, let me let me explain before thee
14:24
Speaker 4: has come from me.
14:25
Speaker 3: Baseball was my first love growing up, and people have
14:29
Speaker 3: to understand one, I'm a thousand years old and because
14:31
Speaker 3: of that, there were certain things that are at our
14:35
Speaker 3: fingertips now that were not in existence.
14:37
Speaker 4: And we're talking about.
14:39
Speaker 3: You know, the early nineteen eighties and the Detroit Tigers
14:43
Speaker 3: were really good and they won World Series in nineteen
14:47
Speaker 3: eighty four, and then they were competitive for a while.
14:51
Speaker 3: And so growing up in the backdrop of your city's
14:55
Speaker 3: team being great is going to suck you in. And
14:58
Speaker 3: that's exactly what happened. And I used to listen to
15:00
Speaker 3: their games on the radio, watch them on TV. When
15:02
Speaker 3: you followed your teams, you had to follow them either
15:05
Speaker 3: through watching the local newscast, through some snippets on national news,
15:10
Speaker 3: or you had to read the newspaper, which is something
15:12
Speaker 3: that I did religiously.
15:13
Speaker 4: As I read the newspaper to follow my sports.
15:15
Speaker 2: That's amazing. No one does.
15:16
Speaker 4: No one don't know that. You don't even know what
15:18
Speaker 4: a paper feels like anymore.
15:19
Speaker 3: But I grew up reading the newspaper, which was honestly
15:23
Speaker 3: divine intervention because that sucked me into journalism is reading
15:27
Speaker 3: about sports and just reading about it. I was like, oh,
15:30
Speaker 3: so people write about sports for a living.
15:33
Speaker 4: That's interesting.
15:34
Speaker 3: And you know, fast forward to when I was a
15:37
Speaker 3: sophomore junior in high school is when I joined the
15:40
Speaker 3: newspaper staff. From there, I started working for the local
15:43
Speaker 3: newspaper answering phones.
15:45
Speaker 4: So I've been very lucky to have always been paid
15:49
Speaker 4: as a writer.
15:49
Speaker 3: So since I was like fifteen, sixteen years old, I've
15:52
Speaker 3: been a paid writer, So that in itself is like
15:55
Speaker 3: a tremendous achievement for somebody who had never heard of
15:58
Speaker 3: sports writing growing up or didn't know any sports writers.
16:02
Speaker 3: It was like, Yeah, I'm gonna be a sports writer.
16:04
Speaker 4: That was the goal.
16:05
Speaker 1: You write for one of my favorite outlets now, The Atlantic,
16:09
Speaker 1: and your bio sports at its conversion with gender, race,
16:13
Speaker 1: and politics. I don't mean to keep bringing this back
16:17
Speaker 1: to geography, but I do think that people that grow
16:20
Speaker 1: up in cities where race is a part of their
16:23
Speaker 1: city more so a different perspective for me. Chicago's the
16:27
Speaker 1: second most segregated city in America. Race is at the forefront,
16:32
Speaker 1: so I've always thought about it. Detroit's very similar. Race
16:37
Speaker 1: has always been a part of that city.
16:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, even though I grew up in a
16:42
Speaker 3: city that was I think right now Detroit is the
16:45
Speaker 3: blackest city in the country because I think it's I mean,
16:48
Speaker 3: it's basically like eighty five percent black. DC was the
16:51
Speaker 3: chocolate city that people were familiar with that. I know
16:53
Speaker 3: people look at Atlanta, but we have more black folks
16:56
Speaker 3: in Detroit than they, you know, haveing Atlanta. I'm pretty
16:59
Speaker 3: positive that's the case. And even DC, because you know,
17:02
Speaker 3: gentrification and everything, they've lost a little of the chocolatedness,
17:06
Speaker 3: if you will. But I say all that to say,
17:09
Speaker 3: even though you're growing up largely around people that look
17:12
Speaker 3: like you, the race informs the policies that lead to
17:17
Speaker 3: what you see play out every day. So you talked
17:20
Speaker 3: about the segregation of Chicago, which is very real and
17:23
Speaker 3: continues to be that way. In Detroit, it's the same way.
17:27
Speaker 3: The reason why Eminem named his movie eight Mile is
17:29
Speaker 3: because eight miles the dividing line between the city and
17:32
Speaker 3: the suburbs. Detroit, like many urban centers, was the casualty
17:36
Speaker 3: of white flight. I mean, there were race riots in Detroit,
17:39
Speaker 3: and when it got to a point with the auto industry,
17:42
Speaker 3: there were race riots in the plants. When the auto
17:44
Speaker 3: industry where you had you know, black and white workers
17:47
Speaker 3: working alongside each other, there was a lot of beef,
17:49
Speaker 3: even though really they should have been on the side
17:52
Speaker 3: of being against ownership and the corporate nature of what
17:56
Speaker 3: they were doing. A lot of racial tension that developed,
18:00
Speaker 3: and the race riots that happened in nineteen sixty seven.
18:04
Speaker 3: That wasn't even the worst race riots that have ever
18:07
Speaker 3: happened in Detroit's history, which people don't know. But when
18:10
Speaker 3: the race riots happened, after that, white people fled the
18:14
Speaker 3: city of Detroit and droves.
18:16
Speaker 4: And see when that happens.
18:17
Speaker 3: The reason why people point out the impact of white
18:20
Speaker 3: flight is that because of the perceptions of race, perceptions
18:25
Speaker 3: of black people, it kills your tax base. So all
18:28
Speaker 3: of a sudden, if you go from a city that
18:30
Speaker 3: is a million too, suddenly.
18:32
Speaker 4: You have like two three hundred thousand white people just leave.
18:35
Speaker 3: Then it's taking the tax space with them, which means
18:37
Speaker 3: it changes the dynamic of city services, of policies, schools,
18:41
Speaker 3: all of that. And you know, still very much at
18:44
Speaker 3: that time, and it still happens today in America. You
18:47
Speaker 3: have redlining, you have all these things that have happened
18:51
Speaker 3: to depress and oppress the people that are left behind.
18:57
Speaker 3: And as a result, Detroit fell on some very challenging
19:00
Speaker 3: economic times. Detroit used to be one of the richest
19:02
Speaker 3: cities in the world and now it's one of the poorest.
19:05
Speaker 3: The motor city, yeah, because all you know, the Great
19:08
Speaker 3: migration happened because everybody was trying to get to jobs
19:11
Speaker 3: in the plant right, and so you have this very
19:14
Speaker 3: stable manufacturing base, and suddenly that starts to erode, and
19:18
Speaker 3: then you have white people who cross eight mile. They're
19:20
Speaker 3: all living in the suburbs, leaving the city behind to die.
19:24
Speaker 4: It becomes a.
19:25
Speaker 3: Very great racial divide. The odd thing is is that
19:28
Speaker 3: now it's reverse migration. Is that a lot of white
19:30
Speaker 3: people moving back to Detroit because they're trying to birth
19:33
Speaker 3: some new industries in downtown Detroit.
19:36
Speaker 4: I go down there now.
19:37
Speaker 3: It is very strange because this is the impact of
19:39
Speaker 3: gentrification whole another conversation. But I'm like the only black
19:43
Speaker 3: person sometimes when I go into places, which is very
19:46
Speaker 3: bizarre because the neighborhoods are still all mostly black except
19:49
Speaker 3: for their pockets that are now getting many more, you know,
19:52
Speaker 3: white people. So it's very different because downtown, you know,
19:56
Speaker 3: is right off a riverfront, very prime property.
19:59
Speaker 4: So people.
20:00
Speaker 3: We have seen this happen in pretty much a lot
20:02
Speaker 3: of the major American cities, from Atlanta to DC. Chicago's
20:06
Speaker 3: that when the cool industries come, the people who put
20:10
Speaker 3: their sweat equity into the city when it wasn't cool,
20:13
Speaker 3: they get pushed out and there all of a sudden
20:16
Speaker 3: want to appeal to a different type of detroitter, which.
20:20
Speaker 4: Is not a black detroiter.
20:22
Speaker 3: So the city has come back and come a long way,
20:24
Speaker 3: but for people who are longtime Detroiters, it's uncomfortable to
20:29
Speaker 3: watch because for years when nobody was going downtown, they
20:33
Speaker 3: were going downtown and now to some degree, feel like
20:36
Speaker 3: strangers in their own city.
20:38
Speaker 1: I wanted to touch on it because you were on
20:41
Speaker 1: a podcast, a Revolt podcast, and you said, growing up
20:44
Speaker 1: black in this country is intertwined with the sports experience,
20:48
Speaker 1: how we frame sports, how we view sports, how we
20:50
Speaker 1: talk about sports.
20:52
Speaker 2: Can you say more about that?
20:53
Speaker 4: Sure?
20:54
Speaker 3: I think we all see the optics when it comes
20:57
Speaker 3: to particularly football and basketball, because those are the sports
21:01
Speaker 3: that are dominated by black athletes.
21:03
Speaker 4: So you have black.
21:06
Speaker 3: Entertainment, the athletes, mostly white ownership, if not pretty much
21:10
Speaker 3: all white ownership, and large majority white fan basis watching
21:16
Speaker 3: the entertainment. So that racial dynamic in itself is very
21:21
Speaker 3: much a mirror of America, where you have a black
21:25
Speaker 3: labor force, often working and usually borderline being exploited, if
21:31
Speaker 3: not fully exploited by a white upper class to serve
21:36
Speaker 3: mostly you know, white people. Even though you may see
21:39
Speaker 3: black athletes making an incredible living, you know making twenty
21:43
Speaker 3: thirty thirty five to forty However many millions a year
21:48
Speaker 3: somebody wrote that check easily okay, And yet a lot
21:53
Speaker 3: of times when it's the criticism, when it's all those things,
21:56
Speaker 3: people direct their anger at the product and not the
22:01
Speaker 3: people who are above them. And I find that to
22:05
Speaker 3: be very fascinating and very much on brand for America.
22:10
Speaker 2: That to me sums up your view of the world.
22:14
Speaker 1: Like I think that you think of sports as a
22:17
Speaker 1: microcosm of America, which is why your writing.
22:20
Speaker 4: Is so interesting.
22:21
Speaker 3: It always has been, and that's why with The Atlantic,
22:23
Speaker 3: I wanted to specifically be given the license and the
22:27
Speaker 3: freedom to write about the intersection of race, class, gender
22:32
Speaker 3: in sports because it is very definitive of the American experience,
22:36
Speaker 3: not just from a money standpoint, but in sports you
22:41
Speaker 3: get to see things that you may not understand is
22:45
Speaker 3: happening in the real world, but when you see it
22:47
Speaker 3: in sports, it might register differently. Plus, sports is one
22:50
Speaker 3: of the few things that we do together. Like a
22:53
Speaker 3: lot of experiences in America are segregated religious experiences, school
22:58
Speaker 3: sports is not. It forces every together because you could
23:02
Speaker 3: be from any economic background and y'all all could be
23:05
Speaker 3: Laker fans and y'all all could be Pistons fans or
23:08
Speaker 3: it's unifying. And so that's why I think having conversations
23:13
Speaker 3: using sports as a lens or backdrop are often more
23:16
Speaker 3: constructive because people are able to lower their guard, they're
23:22
Speaker 3: able to understand somebody else through the lens of sports.
23:27
Speaker 1: I've always felt that way about entertainment, and I came
23:30
Speaker 1: from a lot of teachers, professors, and they would be like,
23:34
Speaker 1: what are you doing with your life? This is so
23:37
Speaker 1: you cannot go do that that you're wasting your brain.
23:39
Speaker 1: And I was like, I see it differently, and I
23:42
Speaker 1: don't know, I feel the same way.
23:44
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I mean, entertainment is definitely a huge vehicle
23:48
Speaker 3: to look at at race, you know, even when.
23:51
Speaker 2: You look at gender.
23:52
Speaker 4: And gender and everything.
23:53
Speaker 3: Yeah, when you look at what we're consuming, as you know,
23:57
Speaker 3: as people who are into pop culture, as you know,
24:00
Speaker 3: I wanted to be entertained, you know, movies, films, they
24:03
Speaker 3: have an ability to make statements that other sectors of
24:07
Speaker 3: society can't make. Yeah, an ability to make you understand
24:11
Speaker 3: something that you never thought you would.
24:16
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24:19
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24:25
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Speaker 1: thirty six dollars. Okay, here's an insight. I want to
25:37
Speaker 1: get your opinion. The top ten most followed people on
25:41
Speaker 1: Instagram are nearly all women. It's Taylor Swift, Selena Gomez,
25:47
Speaker 1: Ariana Grande.
25:48
Speaker 4: Kim Kardashian, right, yes, Beyonce.
25:50
Speaker 2: Maybe Beyonce.
25:51
Speaker 1: Is that they're nearly all performers of some sort, right.
25:55
Speaker 1: The top ten most followed athletes are all men. To me,
26:01
Speaker 1: that signals that we're still not used to seeing women
26:05
Speaker 1: use their bodies to compete instead of performed.
26:07
Speaker 4: Ooh, okay, dropping a bar? What do I think?
26:11
Speaker 3: There is probably a lot of truth to that. The
26:14
Speaker 3: best observation I can think of about why there's such
26:16
Speaker 3: a disparity is that I think, you know, in the
26:19
Speaker 3: sports space, in the sports media space, women's you know,
26:23
Speaker 3: female athletes just are not They're not talked about in
26:26
Speaker 3: that same constant media cycle as you know as their
26:31
Speaker 3: male counterparts. You know, Serena has talked about obviously because
26:34
Speaker 3: she is about to you know, she's retiring or evolving involving, yes,
26:38
Speaker 3: not retiring, Sorry, Serena, do you mean to use the artword,
26:41
Speaker 3: but you have that, and obviously it was a US open.
26:44
Speaker 3: But they're not on ESPN. They're not doing daily serena topics,
26:48
Speaker 3: but they'll do seven hundred topics about Tom Brady whether
26:52
Speaker 3: it's in season or not. And so male athletes are
26:56
Speaker 3: constantly being focused, centered, discuss dissected all the time, and
27:03
Speaker 3: with women it's just not it's just not the same.
27:07
Speaker 3: But when it comes to music or movies, and even
27:12
Speaker 3: if a woman who's an actress has one movie out
27:15
Speaker 3: the year, the fact is like either who she's dating,
27:19
Speaker 3: who she's married to, her kids, like it's body her body,
27:22
Speaker 3: it's so many things that are going to keep her
27:24
Speaker 3: in the news and being discussed and dissected all the time.
27:27
Speaker 3: So when I step back and take more of a
27:30
Speaker 3: sixty thousand foot view, I'm not surprised that most of
27:33
Speaker 3: the women who are in the top ten follows on
27:35
Speaker 3: Instagram are are in the entertainment space.
27:39
Speaker 1: I don't want to harp on ESPN that much because
27:41
Speaker 1: you've done a million interviews about that, but I do
27:44
Speaker 1: have two questions. One is i've heard you talk about
27:47
Speaker 1: how when you did His and Hers, which was before
27:49
Speaker 1: a Sports Center that you were paid two hundred thousand
27:52
Speaker 1: dollars less than your male co hosts doing the same job.
27:55
Speaker 2: Yep, you don't seem mad about it.
27:58
Speaker 4: So here's the thing.
27:59
Speaker 3: And you know, I know that grab that was quite
28:02
Speaker 3: a juicy headline, and the other part of it. It
28:05
Speaker 3: was also at that point the biggest contract I've ever signed.
28:08
Speaker 3: It was also the most money I'd ever made. So
28:11
Speaker 3: while there is something to be said for there being
28:15
Speaker 3: such a disparity for the same job, and some people
28:19
Speaker 3: just reading you know, it was funny like reading some
28:21
Speaker 3: of the comments or where people would write to me like, well,
28:23
Speaker 3: why did you sign the contract? Because it was I
28:27
Speaker 3: was getting paid over four hundred thousand dollars.
28:28
Speaker 4: That's why.
28:29
Speaker 3: Okay, right, that is why I signed the contract. That's
28:32
Speaker 3: not bad, but at all, Like, that's a great living.
28:35
Speaker 3: If you'd have told me when I was eighteen that
28:37
Speaker 3: I'd be making four hundred thousand dollars one day or
28:40
Speaker 3: four hundred plus, I'd be like, hell, yeah, I'm taking
28:42
Speaker 3: that right. And you know, other people are like, oh, well,
28:46
Speaker 3: you know, well Michael Smith was more experienced. Michael Smith's
28:49
Speaker 3: younger than me.
28:50
Speaker 4: Okay, and that's that's an insight.
28:53
Speaker 3: Yeah, was younger than me, and that it wasn't based
28:56
Speaker 3: off age. I understood some of it just in this
28:59
Speaker 3: sense that Mike had been doing tv TV specifically longer
29:03
Speaker 3: than me, but journalistically I had more years in the
29:06
Speaker 3: game than him, and I think.
29:09
Speaker 4: It wasn't really about that.
29:10
Speaker 3: It was really mostly about we are literally at the
29:13
Speaker 3: same desk, doing the same job. And to Mike's credit,
29:17
Speaker 3: and because he's my boy and one of my closest friends,
29:21
Speaker 3: you know, Mike told me what he was making, right,
29:23
Speaker 3: And he told me, Yeah, it's like he told me
29:25
Speaker 3: what he was making because he wanted me to understand.
29:29
Speaker 4: What I was worth.
29:30
Speaker 3: And we had those conversations and there was a strategy
29:34
Speaker 3: involved with that too, with me and my representation, and
29:37
Speaker 3: that strategy was like, didn't get him this round, got
29:40
Speaker 3: something for him next round, and the next contract looked
29:43
Speaker 3: a lot different, okay, And Mike and I were making
29:46
Speaker 3: the exact same amount of money, and I was, you know,
29:50
Speaker 3: even given a signing bonus that was essentially a financial
29:54
Speaker 3: apology for the disparity.
29:56
Speaker 4: You no pay equity became a real.
29:58
Speaker 3: Focus, like you know, John Skipper, who is the president
30:01
Speaker 3: at the time. You know, he said it publicly that
30:03
Speaker 3: he really wanted to narrow the gender pay gap at ESPN,
30:08
Speaker 3: and so I was a part of him really making
30:11
Speaker 3: good on his pledge to do that. So while yeah,
30:14
Speaker 3: that was definitely true, but what came out of it
30:16
Speaker 3: was something so much, you know, greater. So I was
30:20
Speaker 3: still making good money, don't get me wrong, but yeah,
30:23
Speaker 3: I mean there was something kind of initially a tan
30:26
Speaker 3: insulting about the fact that I was like, oh, this
30:29
Speaker 3: is interesting, but I found out in television that's actually
30:33
Speaker 3: really common.
30:35
Speaker 2: I mean, it happened to me, it was super common.
30:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's frustrating when you're in it because it's a
30:40
Speaker 1: passion career, like nobody in it is like in it
30:44
Speaker 1: for anything else.
30:45
Speaker 2: Usually, Yeah, and it feels insulting.
30:47
Speaker 4: But you want to be compensated for your work.
30:49
Speaker 3: And especially if you know, if we're sitting on this
30:51
Speaker 3: couch and we're both hosting this show and I'm making
30:54
Speaker 3: eggs and you make it why and it's a disparity
30:56
Speaker 3: like it's and you're putting in the same amount of work.
30:59
Speaker 3: I know, people like to judge everything based off like
31:02
Speaker 3: popularity and this and that. Well, do you have the
31:04
Speaker 3: same followers or do all this all this kind of stuff.
31:07
Speaker 3: And I get that, and maybe that's a small part
31:09
Speaker 3: of the equation, but in day in and day out,
31:11
Speaker 3: if you have a show with somebody and you guys
31:13
Speaker 3: are doing the same amount of work to make the
31:15
Speaker 3: show great, it's kind of hard to be like, yeah,
31:18
Speaker 3: you know, I should be paid lessantly and so significantly
31:22
Speaker 3: is one thing. If it's just like a couple thousand,
31:25
Speaker 3: it's another thing if it's just like, well, damn, I.
31:27
Speaker 2: Mean two hundred thousands, life changing.
31:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's a nice that's a nice chunk a change.
31:34
Speaker 3: And and thankfully to I'll add that by the end
31:36
Speaker 3: of that that particular contract, we were we were much
31:41
Speaker 3: We were not equal, but we were much closer by
31:43
Speaker 3: the end of that one until we got to Sports
31:45
Speaker 3: Center where we were making the exact same.
31:47
Speaker 1: So you said that you became a better journalist when
31:49
Speaker 1: you became a better business woman.
31:52
Speaker 2: I'm dying to know what you mean by that.
31:54
Speaker 3: When I became more vigilant about my money, and I
31:58
Speaker 3: think what happens. It is societal conditioning that we as
32:02
Speaker 3: women absorb, and it gets in our heads. We very
32:07
Speaker 3: much despite the fact we outperformed so many times. You know,
32:11
Speaker 3: we're carrying a tremendous amount of weight, but yet we
32:15
Speaker 3: have this conditioning that tells us we should.
32:17
Speaker 4: Be happy to be there.
32:19
Speaker 3: And when you have that we should be happy to
32:20
Speaker 3: be there, it will cost you money because you will
32:23
Speaker 3: wind up taking jobs that are taking jobs and taking
32:30
Speaker 3: less compensation because you feel like somebody's taking a chance
32:34
Speaker 3: on you. And like, no, they hired you because you're.
32:36
Speaker 4: Talented and you're good. They didn't hire you because of charity.
32:40
Speaker 3: Like I didn't get to ESPN because they were like,
32:42
Speaker 3: you know what, let's come a little black girl. We're
32:46
Speaker 3: going to uplift you and you can be on this
32:48
Speaker 3: network and we'll pay you money, and because this is
32:52
Speaker 3: our charitable season. No, they hired me because I could
32:56
Speaker 3: do a job and feel a need that they had. So,
33:00
Speaker 3: because we're constantly underestimating what we bring to the table,
33:04
Speaker 3: we have a tendency to take less than what we're worth.
33:07
Speaker 3: And so when I got out of that mentality, when
33:10
Speaker 3: I got out of the you should just be happy
33:11
Speaker 3: to be here, I became more serious about my money
33:14
Speaker 3: and I stopped worrying about how the people maybe in
33:20
Speaker 3: negotiation with or you know, the people that were pulling
33:22
Speaker 3: the purse rings. I stopped worrying about their feelings because
33:26
Speaker 3: all it took was me hearing enough stories. And this
33:29
Speaker 3: is you know, this was an education I received at
33:32
Speaker 3: ESPN because as you know, you get in TV, it's treacherous,
33:36
Speaker 3: like and it's treacherous and people are really about.
33:41
Speaker 4: Getting their bread.
33:42
Speaker 3: And when I heard stories about some of the things
33:44
Speaker 3: people are asking for, and I'm like.
33:46
Speaker 4: Why am I feeling bad?
33:47
Speaker 3: Like why am I feeling like I'm asking for something
33:48
Speaker 3: I don't deserve when people have asked for bolder things
33:52
Speaker 3: than I have. And so I just think it's something
33:55
Speaker 3: as women, it's a habit that we have to break.
33:58
Speaker 3: It's hard because we our behavior is policed.
34:03
Speaker 4: So much differently.
34:04
Speaker 3: You know, people calling us emotional or sometimes if you
34:07
Speaker 3: are just assertive and you create boundaries, people want to
34:11
Speaker 3: call you a bitch for that and all of that.
34:13
Speaker 3: Because we get those labels so easily over things that
34:17
Speaker 3: men do all the time. We instead of forcing other
34:21
Speaker 3: people to just have to deal with it or just
34:23
Speaker 3: learn to like it, we change, or we tone down,
34:27
Speaker 3: or we shrink or we start playing it to the back. Nah,
34:30
Speaker 3: I ain't doing that because, especially when you're at your
34:33
Speaker 3: prime of your career and you got a lot of
34:37
Speaker 3: opportunities come in your way, you only got one time
34:40
Speaker 3: to make that money, and so you might as well
34:43
Speaker 3: make sure that you are getting the.
34:45
Speaker 4: Compensation you deserve.
34:47
Speaker 3: And plus, we have to start being open about what
34:51
Speaker 3: we're making. That's why I didn't have any problem telling
34:53
Speaker 3: people that I made less money than Mike, hoping that
34:56
Speaker 3: the next woman that's in that position will feel empowered
35:01
Speaker 3: to say, hold on, let me make sure that we
35:05
Speaker 3: getting paid the same for doing the same thing, right,
35:07
Speaker 3: And so I think we have to start being transparent
35:11
Speaker 3: about those conversations because a lot of these companies and
35:15
Speaker 3: businesses depend on our silence. They depend on it because
35:18
Speaker 3: if I'm not telling you what you know, Hey, I
35:21
Speaker 3: had the same job, since this is what they pay me,
35:24
Speaker 3: then they're allowed to have all the leverage. I mean,
35:28
Speaker 3: there's definitely been many occasions where some of my friends
35:33
Speaker 3: and even some people who I don't even know as well,
35:36
Speaker 3: have come to me and said, Hey, this particular school
35:39
Speaker 3: or this particular business they asked me to come do
35:42
Speaker 3: a speaking engagement. They said they only had fifteen thousand
35:45
Speaker 3: dollars in the budget. What did they pay you, girl?
35:47
Speaker 3: They paid me thirty. Ask for thirty. Actually ask for
35:50
Speaker 3: more and make them come back to thirty if that's
35:52
Speaker 3: what they really have. I was like, no, that the
35:53
Speaker 3: first thing they offer you ain't all they got. Okay,
35:56
Speaker 3: So that's how you allow other women, all of us,
36:01
Speaker 3: to be able to boost one another up. I've never
36:03
Speaker 3: believed that we should be holding these things as state
36:07
Speaker 3: secrets because I think truly that when whatever industry, when
36:12
Speaker 3: we all begin to succeed, it just raises every level
36:16
Speaker 3: for everybody else. And so when I became a better
36:19
Speaker 3: business person, I became a better journalist because it is
36:23
Speaker 3: going to impact psychologically how you work and what you
36:27
Speaker 3: do when you know that you are getting paid what
36:31
Speaker 3: you deserve.
36:33
Speaker 2: The idea that if you walk through a door, you have.
36:36
Speaker 1: To like look back and bring someone else through is
36:38
Speaker 1: something that I think is spoken about, but you really
36:41
Speaker 1: love it. I think you're doing that with your podcast
36:43
Speaker 1: network with Spotify.
36:46
Speaker 2: Can you tell us about that?
36:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean this was not you know, in all candidness,
36:51
Speaker 3: this was not something I came into the door of
36:53
Speaker 3: Spotify thinking I wanted to do. I was only thinking
36:56
Speaker 3: about Okay, I know, I want my podcast.
36:59
Speaker 4: To be this.
37:00
Speaker 3: This is you know, kind of the involvement that I
37:03
Speaker 3: want to have is churning out a weekly podcast and
37:07
Speaker 3: talking to people and interviewing folks. But as I you know,
37:12
Speaker 3: dug deeper into that relationship with Spotify and just looking
37:15
Speaker 3: around the podcast landscape, I was like, there is not
37:19
Speaker 3: there's certainly black women who are podcasting, but not a
37:22
Speaker 3: lot and there's not a lot of content, you know,
37:25
Speaker 3: for black women in a space that is exploding. And so,
37:31
Speaker 3: from a creative standpoint, a leadership standpoint, I wondered, what
37:35
Speaker 3: could I do to leave something lasting that will impact, amplify,
37:43
Speaker 3: uplift and center black women. And so I went to
37:46
Speaker 3: Spotify and asked them if we could partner together to
37:49
Speaker 3: create a network that specifically centered black women. And you
37:54
Speaker 3: know the reason why to me that was the focus
37:57
Speaker 3: is obviously I'm a black woman.
38:00
Speaker 4: This just the end.
38:01
Speaker 3: And two, I was just thinking about the bigger landscape.
38:05
Speaker 3: So we have a black woman who's the vice president.
38:08
Speaker 3: We have Stacy Abrams trying to be the first black
38:10
Speaker 3: female governor in history, in history, all right, we have
38:15
Speaker 3: so many you know, you look at the Democratic Party,
38:17
Speaker 3: in particular, black women have become the backbone of that.
38:20
Speaker 3: From an education standpoint, black women became the most educated
38:23
Speaker 3: group in the country.
38:25
Speaker 4: They were the.
38:25
Speaker 3: Only group who owned more businesses than their male ethnic counterpart. So, you,
38:30
Speaker 3: you know, black women saving Wakanda, like they're doing all
38:34
Speaker 3: kinds of things, and people tend to put us in
38:36
Speaker 3: this savior role of like, come save us black women
38:39
Speaker 3: from the awful decisions we told y'all not to make
38:41
Speaker 3: to begin with. We're much more than that. We're much
38:44
Speaker 3: more than mules and much more than saviors. And so
38:47
Speaker 3: I wanted to look at the fullness of who Black
38:49
Speaker 3: women are through wellness, through relationships, through trauma, through laughter
38:56
Speaker 3: and comedy, through all these different vehicles. I wanted to
39:00
Speaker 3: create a network that really really highlighted what black women are.
39:05
Speaker 1: You're producing Colin Kaepernick's thirty for thirty. You tell a
39:08
Speaker 1: story about how this was after you left ESPN, Colin
39:12
Speaker 1: calls you and says, Hey, they came to me with this.
39:16
Speaker 2: What do you think. I don't want to undermine you.
39:18
Speaker 4: Which says a lot about him.
39:20
Speaker 3: And realize that, you know, Colin and I were friendly,
39:23
Speaker 3: but we were not friends. He did not owe me
39:25
Speaker 3: that phone call, and had he never called me, I
39:27
Speaker 3: wouldn't have lost any respect for him. And in fact,
39:29
Speaker 3: I considered him factoring me into his decision making to
39:33
Speaker 3: be very humbling, because it was no reason to really
39:38
Speaker 3: do that. And when he asked my honest opinion, which
39:42
Speaker 3: I gave, and I told him that I thought ESPN
39:44
Speaker 3: was the best vehicle for his story, some people were
39:47
Speaker 3: surprised by that, because, you know, while I left there amicably,
39:51
Speaker 3: it was awkward, you know, the way that I left,
39:53
Speaker 3: and some people might assume that I had some bitterness
39:57
Speaker 3: towards ESPN, which I don't, or was resentful, and I
39:59
Speaker 3: was no. I was like, I think this makes a
40:01
Speaker 3: lot of sense for you, and for him to then say, well,
40:05
Speaker 3: I tell you what, what would make me really comfortable
40:07
Speaker 3: is if you came on as an executive producer and
40:12
Speaker 3: I'm like.
40:12
Speaker 4: Don't threaten me with a good time.
40:14
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I'm here for that, like, because his story,
40:17
Speaker 3: you know, needs to be told, and I'm just really
40:21
Speaker 3: really excited about where we are with it.
40:24
Speaker 2: I was shocked when you told that story.
40:26
Speaker 1: I think it'd be incredible if more people went on
40:30
Speaker 1: of their way like that.
40:31
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think, you know, for him to have
40:34
Speaker 3: that level of sensibility, and.
40:36
Speaker 1: I think probably so many people did or didn't show
40:38
Speaker 1: up for him, he saw it in such a s.
40:40
Speaker 4: I think you're right.
40:41
Speaker 3: I mean, I think there were times where he wished
40:45
Speaker 3: others had done the same thing. And it was a
40:48
Speaker 3: very and I knew this before we started working on
40:52
Speaker 3: the documentary, but even more so, you know, hearing him
40:56
Speaker 3: talk about what happened and what has been his life
41:00
Speaker 3: since he began his protest in twenty sixteen, it's so
41:04
Speaker 3: much lonelier than people have imagined in their mind.
41:07
Speaker 4: To do what he's done.
41:08
Speaker 3: And you saw pockets of people standing with him, but
41:14
Speaker 3: very few people really.
41:15
Speaker 4: It's only one, his best friend, Eric.
41:16
Speaker 3: Reid, stood with him the entire way to the point
41:21
Speaker 3: Eric and of course his partner nessa but to the
41:24
Speaker 3: point where it cost Eric, I think his job in
41:28
Speaker 3: the NFL.
41:29
Speaker 4: So very few people did that.
41:30
Speaker 2: And that's also a story that really has in fancy.
41:33
Speaker 3: No because people forget that, you know, yes, Eric Reid,
41:35
Speaker 3: he did play longer than Colin in the NFL. But
41:40
Speaker 3: despite his production, when it was over with the Panthers,
41:43
Speaker 3: it was over in the NFL. I mean, his phone
41:46
Speaker 3: has not rung from an NFL team since, and you
41:49
Speaker 3: just again, given what his production was, his last year
41:52
Speaker 3: in the league, his age, you know, the fact that
41:54
Speaker 3: he's still one of the better, you know safeties in
41:57
Speaker 3: the NFL, it was.
41:59
Speaker 4: Just really, it wasn't surprising.
42:02
Speaker 3: It was more of the same from the NFL of
42:05
Speaker 3: penalizing people for daring to actually, you know, take a
42:10
Speaker 3: stance against something we should all frankly be very vigilant
42:13
Speaker 3: about ending, you know, uphill.
42:16
Speaker 1: It's a memoir. I heard it's the book that you
42:19
Speaker 1: never wanted to write.
42:20
Speaker 3: It's not I didn't want to write about myself. I
42:23
Speaker 3: did not want to write about myself. And maybe that
42:26
Speaker 3: just comes from it does along it comes from two things.
42:30
Speaker 3: Is that one I struggle with and I feel like
42:34
Speaker 3: this is a relatable struggle for a lot of women.
42:36
Speaker 3: Is I definitely struggle with appreciating myself in the moment,
42:43
Speaker 3: like I'm a deflector, I'm a self deprecating person, Like
42:46
Speaker 3: I don't really like being the center of attention. So
42:49
Speaker 3: the idea of writing a memoir was like, no, and
42:51
Speaker 3: that doesn't mean I mind being transparent, like you know,
42:54
Speaker 3: in a setting like this like you interviewed me, like,
42:56
Speaker 3: I'm going to give you honest, transparent answers, but to
43:00
Speaker 3: write a whole book about just me. I was like, oh,
43:03
Speaker 3: that sounds so lame, but many a great decision has
43:08
Speaker 3: been made because of this.
43:10
Speaker 4: The money was too good. I'm not gonna lie. That's
43:12
Speaker 4: just what it was.
43:13
Speaker 3: It was My literary agent SCA was very honest with me,
43:17
Speaker 3: and he was just like, there is a tremendous amount
43:21
Speaker 3: of interest in you writing a memoir. I was like,
43:23
Speaker 3: you gotta be kidding me, And really cool it is,
43:27
Speaker 3: you know, but at the time I was just whining
43:29
Speaker 3: about it, and I know he was like, are you insane?
43:31
Speaker 3: Like do you know how few people when their memoirs
43:35
Speaker 3: go to auctions so that you have multiple bidders for
43:38
Speaker 3: one book? Like it doesn't happen, and you know, So
43:42
Speaker 3: I had to suck it up and write a memoir.
43:45
Speaker 3: And as I got into the process of writing it,
43:48
Speaker 3: which started in twenty nineteen, it was really difficult, painful,
43:55
Speaker 3: but very rewarding. Coming out of it, I'm so glad
44:00
Speaker 3: that I did it.
44:01
Speaker 4: Wow, So thank you for offering me a lot of
44:03
Speaker 4: money to make me ready before and go through some.
44:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's true. I mean it does when
44:09
Speaker 3: you write a memoir. And I think this was frankly
44:11
Speaker 3: part of my fear is that it forces you to relive,
44:17
Speaker 3: open up the boxes of your life that you have
44:19
Speaker 3: firmly put in the closet, that are in the back,
44:22
Speaker 3: the boxes you don't touch. You know, we all have
44:24
Speaker 3: been to the moving experience where, like you, all you're
44:26
Speaker 3: doing is like moving the same boxes from one place
44:28
Speaker 3: to the next that you never opened. And I'm like,
44:30
Speaker 3: if I didn't open this box at the last three
44:32
Speaker 3: residences and put this away, why does.
44:34
Speaker 4: This boxtel with me? Right?
44:36
Speaker 3: And so for me, I was just really afraid to
44:39
Speaker 3: open a lot of boxes.
44:40
Speaker 4: And yeah, it was very emotional writing this.
44:43
Speaker 3: I mean there was a time where I was writing
44:45
Speaker 3: and crying at the same time.
44:48
Speaker 4: And who wants to go through that? Nobody does.
44:52
Speaker 3: But at the same time, I was really proud of
44:55
Speaker 3: myself when it was done, and I am.
44:59
Speaker 4: Glad so over her.
45:01
Speaker 3: But I think it allowed me to get out of
45:04
Speaker 3: that mode of constantly deflecting.
45:08
Speaker 4: So it was good.
45:09
Speaker 1: If there's one, not one thing, if there are two
45:12
Speaker 1: things that I have garnered from all my research for
45:14
Speaker 1: this interview.
45:15
Speaker 2: It's that you have a real conviction.
45:20
Speaker 1: That word kept coming up as I was watching your interviews,
45:23
Speaker 1: and you really believe in the truth, which I think
45:27
Speaker 1: is partly maybe why you went into journalism. But it's
45:29
Speaker 1: just inherent to you. So I think there's probably going
45:31
Speaker 1: to be a lot of that in the book, which.
45:33
Speaker 4: Makes it is. I mean, it's a lot of it
45:36
Speaker 4: in there.
45:37
Speaker 3: I think people in their minds are probably assuming because
45:42
Speaker 3: of you know, I've had a very public career, particularly
45:44
Speaker 3: the last five or six years. Yeah, they're going to
45:49
Speaker 3: wrongly assume that that is the bulk of the book,
45:52
Speaker 3: very small percentage. It might be twenty percent. You know,
45:56
Speaker 3: I'll give you guys a cheek code. All the stuff
45:59
Speaker 3: about esp in the back of the book, right into
46:02
Speaker 3: the back.
46:03
Speaker 2: Right, but it was defining moment, it wasn't.
46:06
Speaker 3: And you know, and even the Donald Trump stuff is
46:09
Speaker 3: all on the back of the book. So yeah, it's
46:12
Speaker 3: like it's in the back, you know, that that stuff
46:13
Speaker 3: I don't even get into until probably like the last
46:15
Speaker 3: four or five chapters.
46:16
Speaker 4: But everything that happens.
46:18
Speaker 3: Before then is really a journey into who I am
46:23
Speaker 3: and to what shaped me. And it's some triumphs. It's
46:27
Speaker 3: it's a good fair amount of ugliness, you know. I mean,
46:30
Speaker 3: I really spend much of it talking about the very
46:35
Speaker 3: complicated relationship that I have, you know, with my mother,
46:38
Speaker 3: and you know, mothers and daughters go through things, and
46:41
Speaker 3: particularly having to witness and be in the middle of
46:45
Speaker 3: my mother's drug addiction was very difficult for me. So
46:48
Speaker 3: I have to relive some childhood trauma. She had to
46:51
Speaker 3: belive some trauma because I, you know, interviewed her multiple
46:54
Speaker 3: times for the book, and it was tough.
46:57
Speaker 4: You know, my mother has survived a lot.
46:59
Speaker 3: She's the greatest survivor I've ever known, and so by
47:02
Speaker 3: exposing my story, I'm exposing her story at.
47:07
Speaker 4: The same time.
47:08
Speaker 3: So I am really curious as to how this will
47:12
Speaker 3: how people will will receive that. But I hope people
47:16
Speaker 3: understand that this is about how you come out of
47:20
Speaker 3: things and not how you state in them.
47:23
Speaker 4: And so I know, I wish I'd have thought of
47:26
Speaker 4: that before I came.
47:27
Speaker 3: Up Hill, which wasn't I mean, to be honest, that
47:30
Speaker 3: wasn't actually my title, Like the title I came up with,
47:33
Speaker 3: which I loved, but book Bubblish didn't love.
47:35
Speaker 1: It so much.
47:36
Speaker 2: What was it.
47:37
Speaker 4: The title I came up with was broken Curses.
47:39
Speaker 3: And you know, my mother, she used to talk a
47:42
Speaker 3: lot about how families can be beset by generational curses,
47:47
Speaker 3: where you're passing down trauma from you know, one matriarch
47:50
Speaker 3: or patriarch to the next, like you're just passing it
47:53
Speaker 3: along and not really dealing with it. And they thought
47:56
Speaker 3: that Broken Curses was a bit too negative and that whole.
48:01
Speaker 3: But I was like, you're breaking the curse though it's
48:03
Speaker 3: not staying in the curse.
48:04
Speaker 4: You're breaking in.
48:05
Speaker 2: Okay, we do some rapid fire.
48:06
Speaker 4: Oh my favorite? You ready to see me?
48:09
Speaker 1: Best sports film of all time, of all time?
48:14
Speaker 2: Or your favorite?
48:15
Speaker 3: Hmmm, I'm gonna say I always believe like saying the
48:18
Speaker 3: first thing that pops even mine any given Sunday.
48:22
Speaker 2: Why did your mom name you Jamel?
48:25
Speaker 3: Because actually my mother, the story behind this is that
48:28
Speaker 3: that wasn't the name she wanted. The name she wanted
48:31
Speaker 3: was actually Jamila, which in Arabic means beautiful. But while
48:35
Speaker 3: she was recovering from having me, my grandmother's and my
48:39
Speaker 3: father conspired and changed my name while she was in there,
48:43
Speaker 3: and that's what wound up on the more certificate, which
48:45
Speaker 3: was Jamel, but it's derivative of Jamila in her mind,
48:49
Speaker 3: so that's why she named me that it's unique.
48:52
Speaker 4: Yeah.
48:53
Speaker 1: What is a book that has changed your life? Something
48:55
Speaker 1: you think everyone should read?
48:57
Speaker 3: Okay, I'll tell you the most recent one. Okay, Biola
48:59
Speaker 3: Davis is memoir.
49:01
Speaker 4: It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. Yes, I mean so that one.
49:09
Speaker 3: Oh a book I read and I hated that I
49:13
Speaker 3: got on this book late because I think it came
49:14
Speaker 3: out like twenty fifteen. Twenty sixteen, a book by author
49:17
Speaker 3: named Yah Jesse called Homecoming phenomenal, one of the best
49:20
Speaker 3: books I've ever read. And she's brilliant. Oh, I'll give
49:24
Speaker 3: you a third because I talked about books all day long.
49:26
Speaker 2: But it's a bookie podcast. It's so good.
49:28
Speaker 3: Okay, I just finished this book. I believe her name
49:32
Speaker 3: is Leela Motley. She's out of Oakland Night Crawling fantastic.
49:38
Speaker 3: That was actually the last book that I read.
49:40
Speaker 2: Pretty smart card deck. We do a question.
49:41
Speaker 4: Oh, okay, do I get to pick her you? Oh?
49:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, you get to pick which everyone.
49:45
Speaker 4: This is gonna be some ridiculous second. I already feel it.
49:48
Speaker 3: What is the best advice someone has given you, and
49:51
Speaker 3: why how about the worst the worst advice? That's funny,
49:56
Speaker 3: great advice. Walter Mosley, the author, since this is a
50:00
Speaker 3: a book, intensive it was, Lee told me i interviewed
50:02
Speaker 3: him for my own podcast.
50:04
Speaker 4: He's prolific, like he just writes. I'm like, you just write.
50:08
Speaker 3: And I was struggling at that point with my memoir
50:11
Speaker 3: because as even though journalists have deadlines, you wind up
50:16
Speaker 3: writing by field, meaning oh, I'm in the mood. You know,
50:19
Speaker 3: it might be three o'clock in the morning, and be like,
50:21
Speaker 3: let me bang this story out because I can feel it,
50:23
Speaker 3: I know where I want to go with it, I
50:24
Speaker 3: understand it. And so when you write that way, you're
50:28
Speaker 3: not very disciplined. And that's how I was doing my memoir.
50:31
Speaker 3: So I might in one day, I might write forty
50:34
Speaker 3: pages and then I won't write for three weeks. And
50:37
Speaker 3: Walter Mosley, he told me, every day he gets up
50:41
Speaker 3: and writes for two hours no matter what he said.
50:44
Speaker 4: Even if it's crap.
50:45
Speaker 2: Did it change the way you write?
50:46
Speaker 4: Totally did?
50:47
Speaker 3: And then I realized I had to stop being emotional
50:52
Speaker 3: about when I wrote and waiting until I was ready
50:55
Speaker 3: and just had to write. So then I made it
50:58
Speaker 3: a discipline, and then I said a time every day
51:01
Speaker 3: and wrote, and that's how I finished the memoir.
51:04
Speaker 4: And it's true. He was right.
51:05
Speaker 3: Worst advice I probably got. It's from a girlfriend about
51:08
Speaker 3: it and she sees it, she'll know, she'll know what
51:11
Speaker 3: it is.
51:12
Speaker 4: She was like, never tell the truth? Who cares about that?
51:15
Speaker 4: I was like, what does she know? Who she's talking
51:18
Speaker 4: to her?
51:19
Speaker 3: She's like, don't tell the truth. No one has time
51:21
Speaker 3: for that. And I was like, she was like, but
51:22
Speaker 3: why it's so pointless?
51:24
Speaker 2: Okay, Donald Trump?
51:26
Speaker 4: Right? I was like, this is really awful advice.
51:29
Speaker 1: You know that.
51:29
Speaker 4: She was like, I'm just saying no one, no one cares.
51:31
Speaker 3: I was like, okay, that's actually really good answer, no question,
51:35
Speaker 3: and I was hollering.
51:36
Speaker 4: I was just like, you are going to get me,
51:38
Speaker 4: like in a total world of trouble. It was. It
51:41
Speaker 4: was about a very specific situation, and I was like,
51:44
Speaker 4: this is awful advice.
51:46
Speaker 2: The smartest decision you've ever made?
51:48
Speaker 3: Oh, marry my husband. That has definitely the smartest decision
51:51
Speaker 3: I've ever made.
51:52
Speaker 1: I actually want to do a whole separate podcast with
51:54
Speaker 1: you about that, because it seems like you guys have
51:56
Speaker 1: the thing.
51:58
Speaker 3: Well, you know, the thing is that I guess that
52:01
Speaker 3: we have is like obviously, you know, there's love, there's affection,
52:05
Speaker 3: but there's mutual respect. And I have not been I
52:10
Speaker 3: don't think really I ever have been in a relationship
52:14
Speaker 3: where somebody actually brought out the best of me. He
52:16
Speaker 3: actually brings out the best of me, and I want
52:19
Speaker 3: to be the best for him, and I have not
52:21
Speaker 3: felt that really at all, you know, and which I
52:27
Speaker 3: was like, wow, Q, all my exis somewhere like what
52:31
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, different people different at different stages
52:35
Speaker 3: in your life, and I you know, so I think, yeah,
52:39
Speaker 3: that part was an unexpected twist in our relationship because
52:45
Speaker 3: I don't I think generally speaking, most women is me
52:48
Speaker 3: and my husband actually debate this a little bit because
52:50
Speaker 3: I told him, I was like, you know, I think
52:52
Speaker 3: women have bigger egos.
52:53
Speaker 4: Men have more fragile egos.
52:55
Speaker 3: And I know people are like women have bigger egos
52:58
Speaker 3: only because of this, And I don't mean bigger ego
53:00
Speaker 3: with everything I mean, particularly about relationships. And most women
53:05
Speaker 3: believe every person they've dated they've been the best thing they've.
53:08
Speaker 4: Ever happened to them.
53:09
Speaker 3: Every woman believes this, like have you been the best
53:12
Speaker 3: thing that ever happened to whoever you've dated, I don't think. So, Okay,
53:16
Speaker 3: you're like the first woman I've ever run into that
53:18
Speaker 3: has said that.
53:19
Speaker 2: Most of it like yeah, therapy, Okay, that's true.
53:22
Speaker 3: See that's how you know you're like, ooh, yeah, you
53:27
Speaker 3: might have said yes. I think most women tend to
53:31
Speaker 3: say that because we do really feel that way, and
53:35
Speaker 3: because of that, we miss a lot of keywork.
53:38
Speaker 4: We could do on ourselves.
53:39
Speaker 3: And so my my husband is the first person who
53:43
Speaker 3: really exposed me, and I mean that in a great way.
53:46
Speaker 3: And because I had, I struggled a lot with being
53:50
Speaker 3: vulnerable a lot with it, and another reason I didn't
53:53
Speaker 3: want to write a memoir. And he didn't give me
53:57
Speaker 3: any place to run because he's very open, he's very honest,
54:01
Speaker 3: he's like direct, like and so it made me. It
54:04
Speaker 3: put me in that space of discomfort to the point
54:07
Speaker 3: where I was like, I gotta deal with this. So
54:09
Speaker 3: I'm not saying I'm perfect at it, but yeah, he
54:12
Speaker 3: made me want to do it, want to try to
54:15
Speaker 3: like really be unvarnished and vulnerable with him. So best
54:20
Speaker 3: decision I've ever made, Smartest decision I've ever made is
54:24
Speaker 3: marrying this man.
54:52
Speaker 2: All right, today's a good day to have a good day.
54:55
Speaker 2: I'll see you next week.