Latest / Brett Keane and Eve Show / 🔴 @SmokeySaintPolemics OSAS Abraham didn't exist - The End of Salvific Dispensationalism

Transcript

🔴 @SmokeySaintPolemics OSAS Abraham didn't exist - The End of Salvific Dispensationalism · Brett Keane and Eve Show

0:27
The. Choosing love I ain't.
0:29
Chasing sin. No more love inside.
0:32
Drive the fear out of me. Sanctify the strong.
0:35
Christ set my soul free. Open up the door.
0:45
I was running in the dark, had already paid a day before I even
0:58
knew He was working in my store, pulling me from change, bringing
1:03
me to glory. Holy Mr. Mission.
1:05
Not just talk in the game. Spirit in the fire, Sanctify in
1:09
my name, insurance in my chest. Spirit testify I ain't just
1:15
forgiving man. I've been made no grace that go
1:18
before he had opened up the door free with chosen love.
1:35
I ain't chasing sin no more. Oh my beloved side, drive the
1:42
fear out of me. Try to find my peace in 1000
2:09
ways. Chasing empty lights through the
2:12
endless haze. But you burn the dog with a holy
2:16
flame. Now my heart is yours.
2:19
Never the same Grace was calling, now I see your spirit
2:25
fire is changing me. Not just forgiving but they
2:29
brand new holy love is shining through.
2:37
Oh the fear Kevin song is ringing clear sanctified.
2:50
My heart is holy Fire is clean my soul mercy walks beside
3:04
strong enough to say no more change of doubt.
3:08
I am standing tall. Your insurance sayings I can
3:12
hear it call. Grace was calling Now I see your
3:17
spirit fire is changing me. I just forgiven for my brand new
3:24
holy love is shining through and now the fear heaven song is
3:36
ringing clear. Sanctify my heart is holy.
3:47
Fire has claimed my soul, another vine, all love excelling
3:56
in my heart, forever dwelling. Jesus Savior keep me true.
4:03
Perfect Love Is All from you. Perfect Love Is All the fear
4:06
that this song is. Drinking.
4:17
Clean. Yeah, yeah.
5:09
I ain't my own. I belong to the King.
5:12
Take all my plans. Let your spirit lead.
5:15
Put me where you want and I'm ready to go.
5:18
Play me with the Saints of face to foe.
5:21
Every breath in my chest is yours to claim.
5:24
Every trial I walk, I praise your name.
5:27
If I rise, it's grace. If I fall, it's love.
5:30
You lift me from the dirt, Set my eyes above.
5:35
Come like a fire burning my soul.
5:38
Light up the night. Let your glory show ashes to
5:42
beauty. Change it the floor.
5:44
Send me your blazer, yours and yours.
6:03
I'm contending Christ, I don't need no more If I got plenty or
6:07
if I got none. Still I've testified a war's
6:10
been won. Break my pride, Lord, kill my
6:14
flesh, Raise me new. With eternal breath I mark my
6:19
blood. That cross defines the Lamb that
6:21
was slain now, reigns aside and all.
6:25
Come like a fire, burn in my soul, light up the night and let
6:30
your glory show. This is the beauty, Change it to
6:34
flow. Send me your place and I'm yours
6:37
and yours. Shake my hands, take my heart,
6:50
Tell my sin RIP apart. Let me shine in the dark.
6:53
Living flames spark the mark. Fill me up, pull me out.
6:56
That's the mission. No doubt.
6:58
Heaven's fire in my veins burn eternal Jesus reigns at me on
7:02
fire. Lord, let it ignite.
7:05
Day in the day and night in the night.
7:08
Not my will, but yours be the plan.
7:11
I'm all in. Here I stand.
7:37
The I am on. I belong to the King.
7:41
Take all my plans that you spirit leave.
7:43
Put me what you want. I'm ready to go.
7:44
Let me with the Saints of face to foe.
7:46
Every breath of my chest is yours to claim.
7:48
Every trial I'll walk out. Praise your name.
7:50
If I rise this grace, if I fall this love, you leave me from the
7:52
dirt and my eyes above a come like a fire burning my soul
7:57
light of the night. Let your glory show.
8:01
That's just a beauty. Change it to fall.
8:07
Come like a fire burning my soul.
8:11
Light up the night. Let your glory show.
8:14
That's just a beautiful oh, send me your play.
8:18
Tell yours and yours. And yours.
8:20
And yours? Let me be rich, let me be poor.
8:22
I'm contending Christ, I don't need no more.
8:24
If I got plenty of yogurt, If I got none still I testify the
8:27
warfare one. Break my pride, Lord, kill my
8:29
flesh, raise me new. With eternal breath I mark my
8:31
blood. That cross defines the lamb that
8:33
was slain. Now rains inside come like a
8:35
fire burning my soul. Light up the night.
8:39
That's a glory show. That's just the beauty.
8:51
Light up the night, that's your glory, That's just the beauty.
9:02
My hands take my heart and tear my sin RIP apart.
9:05
Let me shine in the dark. Living flames the market, fill
9:09
me up and pour me out. That's the mission, no doubt.
9:12
Heaven fire in my face, Burn eternal Jesus.
9:15
Rise me on fire, Lord. Let it ignite.
9:19
Day in the day and night in the night.
9:22
Not my will. You want me to plan From all In
9:28
Here I stand.
9:42
Here I stand, here I stand. All right, well welcome, welcome
9:58
everyone. Welcome to another Smoky St.
10:01
polemics live show episode #35 thank you so much for joining me
10:07
today. Of course, joined by my Co host
10:10
it seems for the evening. Got the Brett Keane here.
10:12
Brett, how you doing? Hey, how you doing man?
10:15
Not a little late. I was getting worried there guy.
10:18
Had a phone call I had to take and it was a family conversation
10:23
stuff. So yeah, I was a little bit
10:24
behind today, but people are used to me being behind because
10:27
life happens, especially with me.
10:28
Life seems to happen every time I want to decide to do a stream.
10:32
So it's just is what it is. I live that type of lifestyle I
10:36
suppose. But good for everyone is that it
10:39
seems that I'm usually worth it. So I appreciate all of you being
10:42
patient with me getting here to get the show started.
10:47
So how are you, Brett? How are things going?
10:50
Doing pretty good, my hands hurting real bad from a recent
10:54
ordeal. Oh OK, something I want.
10:59
To hear about it, well, I had to.
11:01
I had to bend my friend Shanny and Jason over and give them
11:04
SWAT across the ass. So it is what it is.
11:10
Yeah, actually, oddly enough, just so you know, I was actually
11:13
going to open the show in terms of beginning on this topic by
11:18
actually even playing their video.
11:20
I decided against it because it's not really on topic and
11:23
it's not really germane. But since you brought it up, I
11:27
think I am going to go ahead and play it.
11:29
So, and this by the way, guys, and I get it.
11:32
You know, when I looked at the title, I could see how they
11:35
could think what they thought, But you know, they could have
11:39
gone about that several different ways and they've seen
11:41
me talk and they know like kind of in a general sense where I
11:45
stand for they could have even reached out to me like, you
11:48
know, directly or personally, or e-mail my emails out there, you
11:51
know, or even discord. My discord link is out there
11:54
really multiple ways and said, Hey, what's this about type
11:57
thing? Or even reached out to Brett and
11:59
said Brett, hey, what's this about?
12:01
But they decided to see it and then just instantly jumped on
12:05
the gas and and jump right to shit posting.
12:08
So and you know, shanty's here's the thing.
12:12
I'm going to go ahead and play it.
12:13
And this is the thing too. It's probably something to kind
12:15
of like point out. I didn't.
12:17
I did not attack shanty Brett, you'll vouch for me, right?
12:19
I didn't attack these people. I was nothing but cordial to
12:23
them when they were on your show.
12:24
I thought I was polite. I didn't attack them.
12:26
I didn't go after them. I didn't do anything, did I?
12:29
Am I wrong? I mean, am I mistaken here?
12:32
No, you were very kind and decent with them.
12:35
I do want to say something before you play the video.
12:38
Any of my friends out there, if you ever shovel shit on another
12:42
friend of mine then you're going to get it back.
12:45
I'm sorry, that's just the way the rules work.
12:48
That's fair enough. I tend to, I tend to go with a
12:52
lot of that that take myself. Oh, now I have to go find their
12:56
video. It's in my history.
12:58
Give me a second that they changed the title.
13:01
They had tagged me in the title initially and then Brett came in
13:05
and kind of, I guess you talked with them inside chat or
13:08
something like that and said, hey, you know, you guys got this
13:12
wrong type thing and then they changed the title to what was
13:16
it, Brett? Keene clickbaited me.
13:21
Or something like that. It was something along those
13:23
lines here. Let me get it up here.
13:25
I told them the title it Brett Keene is an ass hat but they
13:28
refuse. All right, hold on, duplicate.
13:37
I'll just show you guys this one too.
13:38
I just go. Here's the thing.
13:40
For context, let's let's say this for context for this
13:45
reaction that they threw out there, I'm going to play another
13:49
video that they uploaded just a little bit before.
13:54
And I think if I do that, you guys might have a little context
13:59
as to like kind of the frame of mind reference they had here.
14:06
Kim is my screen sharing or no, it's not.
14:09
Oh, there's no way this guy is actually in the room.
14:12
Believe. Is that actually you?
14:14
Shit, man, I was hopeful. I was.
14:21
So I've been baiting that bitch in side chat to show up for a
14:26
hot minute. Man, that that got me excited.
14:33
It's all good, Smokey. You're a dreamer.
14:35
We understand. I was, I was excited there for a
14:39
second. I was kind of like, wow, man,
14:42
holy shit. It's did he actually show up?
14:45
Did he? I've been, you know, telling
14:47
him, hey man, you got a loudmouth on my side.
14:49
Chat put up or shut up, come in the room and defend your
14:53
bullshit. He runs for me every single
14:55
time. And I got excited like, Oh my
14:56
God, he's finally here. And it's just the same guy that
15:00
comes and plays the pre recorded clip.
15:02
And by the way, dude, I'm going to say you're a pussy.
15:05
Like like deep down, like I mean, you may keep your
15:07
anonymity, but let's be clear here, man, you're a pussy.
15:10
You don't even have the balls to show up and like say the word in
15:13
your own voice. You just play like a prerecorded
15:16
clip every time. Like that's like, I mean that's
15:18
fine. Like no one knows who you are to
15:20
connect you to being a pussy, but deep down your essence is
15:24
you're a giant quivering pussy. That I mean not and that's just
15:28
an objective fact of reality. Whether other people recognize
15:31
it or not, whether other people see it or not, there is just
15:34
that the sky is blue, it's 98° outside and you are a giant wet
15:39
quivering pussy. OK, that just objective facts of
15:42
reality. So even if you managed to hide,
15:45
oh, is that what it is? It's a South Park clip.
15:49
OK, I'm more likely to get flagged for a oh, hey, Chris,
15:55
how you doing? I'm more likely to get flagged
15:59
for a a copyright strike from the South Park people that I am
16:07
to probably get flagged down for the use of that word on the
16:10
stream. I don't even know what that what
16:13
that is maybe even accomplishing.
16:18
Bob. Bob loves Bob loves my wife.
16:22
OK, here we got another one. Oh, my God.
16:24
You know, you know, man. All right.
16:26
I hope this is actually someone. Hold on.
16:29
Let's do this. Unbelievable.
16:32
Do this. All right, man.
16:35
Daniel Ministries. Yeah.
16:36
With the. Yeah.
16:37
OK, this is drunken peasants. This is drunken peasants people.
16:44
This is the caliber of human beings that follow that
16:46
degenerate garbage over there. I hope this is a cautionary tale
16:49
to all of you. The Internet has some dark
16:52
corners and all of the deranged, amoral, nonsensical autists of
16:58
society have all funneled down into the drunken peasants
17:01
environment it seems. What in the actual hell?
17:06
Anyway, moving on. So we're going to play this
17:09
clip. This is something to give you
17:11
guys some context to what they did do in the video to basically
17:14
throw shit at me again instead of confronting me or talking to
17:18
me, to just throw it at me from a distance when really I was
17:21
nothing but cordial and kind to these people.
17:24
So this is the video that they released earlier today.
17:27
It says Ozempic high, pain day, Ozempic high pic.
17:32
Now this is Rev streaming on Shanny's channel now this is not
17:40
let's be very clear and I am not even doing this right now to
17:42
join the whole locale or the attack crowd I'm not what this
17:46
is contacts ladies and gentlemen I didn't I did not attack them I
17:50
did not go after them OK they decided on 2 separate occasions
17:54
Rev already did it once and I let it go did I say anything to
17:57
that bread or did I just let it go I'm.
18:02
Sorry, I had some chips there. You let go.
18:07
I let it go. I I let it go.
18:09
I didn't respond to it. I didn't make a big deal of it.
18:11
I think I left the comment saying, hey, man, you could have
18:13
just talked to me, you know, instead of, you know, doing a
18:16
shit post or something. But I let it go make a video on
18:19
him. I didn't do any response.
18:20
I didn't attack him. I didn't do anything.
18:23
Now there was this today and they saw the video, they saw O
18:26
SAS Abraham doesn't exist and they read Abraham doesn't exist
18:31
as if I was denying the existence of Abraham.
18:34
I'm not, by the way. And that wasn't what the you
18:39
know, and they they didn't read the O SAS partner.
18:42
They didn't notice the O SAS partner.
18:43
They didn't know what it meant. They just saw, you know, Abraham
18:49
doesn't exist and they ran with it and they did a shit post.
18:50
But prior to this, this is the context for the day.
18:53
This is Rev posting on Shanny's channel.
18:59
Now I'm not going to give any pre tax.
19:01
I don't want to poison the well. You guys watch it and you tell
19:04
me if you notice anything and go ahead and sound off in the side
19:07
chat to let me know what you see.
19:10
How are all? The individuals doing so, I'm on
19:14
Shanny's channel, I'm going to do an upload here and I hope
19:19
everybody's doing well. I hope everybody in the Shanny
19:23
mod squad is doing good and we have to just take a day off
19:30
because let's just say Shanny's body is like fuck you.
19:38
Like majorly. I'm done with you.
19:43
So isn't it nice that you could see the curtains aren't nearly
19:47
as yellow as you think they are? That's cool, isn't it?
19:51
They're not, actually. It's the thing behind the
19:54
curtain, whatever. And it's always yellow sunlight.
19:58
Anyway, pray for Janie because the, the, the, the bullshit is
20:04
to the high level. It's on the high level.
20:08
So send out good vibes, healing vibes and all that stuff.
20:14
And our kit Kats keep trying to heal us, too, and that's
20:17
wonderful. So we'll see you when we see
20:21
you, piece of Maryland author and keep looking up for Jesus
20:24
Christ is going to come back soon.
20:29
So now you guys draw your own conclusions based upon what you
20:34
just saw. He looked baked out of his mind
20:37
to me personally. I don't know if he's back on the
20:41
liquor everyone is saying he is. He doesn't look well, Neither of
20:46
them. Neither of them look well.
20:50
Another one of these assholes, you know, man, really, He's just
20:53
going to keep doing this, man. Here's the thing.
20:54
I can see your authentication. It's just the general username.
20:58
You're coming in with the same account.
21:00
Do better. You're going to have to troll
21:02
better. You're going to have to get a
21:03
different song. I was, I was going to say
21:07
Smokey. I've repeatedly told these
21:09
folks, she and me and Jason in person, I love them.
21:13
They need to get off the drugs and the alcohol and all that.
21:16
And I also made a video recently asking people not to absolutely
21:20
destroy them because they do have mental issues and all that
21:23
and also do drugs. Hopefully some will listen.
21:26
I doubt it. But I do go by the philosophy of
21:29
fucked around, find out. So if they give you heat, you're
21:32
more than welcome to do it back. And I say nothing.
21:36
Chris, I promise you the stream yard link is not broken.
21:40
I promise you it is not. Brett, that's how you got in
21:42
here, right? Brett?
21:43
Use the exact same link, bud and I and I pinned it inside chat
21:46
and that's where Brett got it from.
21:48
So if you're clicking on the link in side chat there, then
21:51
you're fine. Hey Jared, how you doing?
21:55
Good I I got in. Jared just got in clicking it
22:00
man. So try, try again.
22:02
I don't know, maybe update your browser?
22:05
I don't know. I don't.
22:06
I've never. I haven't seen you join a
22:08
channel before. It's just stream Yard.
22:10
It shouldn't be broken. Should just be able to click on
22:13
it. Yeah.
22:14
And you're welcome in. You're welcome to come.
22:16
In how? How was your debate, Smokey?
22:18
I was just watching it, but I didn't get to finish it.
22:21
Yeah, no, I, I mean, I liked it. I got to land a lot of the
22:24
points. I wanted to land some of the
22:27
points. He was more confident and I
22:29
think crumbled, particularly that one with what was it?
22:32
It's Colossians. His his argument with Colossians
22:36
2 was just absolutely annihilated with chapter 1
22:41
because it basically gives a qualifier of a state of the
22:44
human being that is being referred to in chapter 2 as to
22:48
having all of their sins forgiven.
22:51
So it's a continuation. And that because Kevin's whole
22:55
thing is isagesis to treat each individual text as a monolith
22:58
that allows him to erase the other text.
23:00
And that's his idea of exegesis. He's only sending his own soul
23:04
to hell in the process of doing so, but clearly that was
23:09
detrimental and devastating. He had to start making up things
23:12
and basically lying on the fly that the word if shouldn't be if
23:16
or should be something else. And his only justification he
23:19
had for that case is because it goes against his belief, which
23:23
is isogesis. It's really the only thing you
23:26
can. So I think I, I think I actually
23:28
was pretty happy with it. I'm having done that
23:30
experimental format now. I probably wouldn't do that
23:34
again. I would probably learn more
23:36
towards what Charlie had initially presented kind of with
23:40
a little bit more short form introduction point by point,
23:44
moving through it, each side contending and then, you know,
23:47
reaching to an end. So I I like the idea of that.
23:51
I'll, I'll play around with it. Last night was very experimental
23:54
of a different type of pro format, but I'm going to start
23:59
looking at more of kind of the the the more dynamic organic
24:04
type formats where there's a lot more of a throwdown.
24:07
And that's generally the type of debate I like anyway.
24:09
I mean, I want a brawl. I don't want, you know, the
24:13
ancient do you want? More of an open discussion
24:15
style. Yeah, I want more of a down, you
24:18
know, I want to scrap, you know. I mean I want a.
24:20
Brawl, you know I want to. Get down to it.
24:22
You know, I don't want because the other way it's like it's
24:25
like ancient codes of war where like OK, one side fires and we
24:29
wait until it's done and then the other side fires and we wait
24:32
until it's a very it's I get it and it's a traditional way of
24:36
doing a debate and supposed to keep structure to it.
24:40
But at this stage with the way these debates go with so many
24:43
points being put out and stuff, and you have 7 minutes even for
24:47
an opening and it feels like an eternity, like 2 to 3.
24:50
Get your main points out, you know, throw them out there.
24:53
You can elaborate later. Get your thesis out, get your
24:56
little support out and then move on to the section where you're
24:59
kind of because then it just, it's just Gish galloping on
25:02
words at 1015 minute openings. You know what?
25:05
Let. Me be honest with you these
25:08
days, let me tell you, many times when I watch a debate,
25:11
I'll usually skip the opening. Honestly, I don't give a fuck
25:15
about the openings. In fact, usually the openings
25:17
are around because at some point someone in the rebuttal or at
25:20
some point is going to bring up what was said in the opening.
25:22
It's going to get rehashed anyway.
25:24
Openings for me are. I don't even think openings are
25:27
for the audience to be to be honest with you, I don't think
25:30
opening statements and debates have anything to do with the
25:33
audience. You know what the opening is
25:34
for. It's for the other side, the
25:36
other debate partner to know what your position is.
25:39
I don't actually think it's for the audience at all, honestly.
25:42
I mean, we write it as if it is, but we're not changing anyone's
25:47
mind at the opening statement before any counterpoint has ever
25:51
been presented. It's not for you.
25:53
It's for the opposition to know where you're coming from.
25:56
So they're not straw manning. You're misrepresenting or
25:58
arguing something. You're not arguing.
25:59
That's really what it's for. It's not.
26:02
It's not really for you. So generally, if I'm in the
26:04
audience, I'm watching a debate. I'm going to be completely
26:06
honest with you a good chunk of the time I will skip past the
26:09
opening statements. I just will.
26:10
I'm going to go right to the meat.
26:12
I want to get into cross exam, open conversation, open
26:16
dialogue. And that's the shit that makes a
26:18
debate. Because I guess what, that's
26:20
where the truth actually emerges.
26:22
I mean, I can declare any assertion.
26:24
It could be a fallacy, it could be bullshit and you might not
26:27
even know. And I can just throw it out
26:28
there. And if there's a someone there
26:30
to give the counterpoint and give you a different perspective
26:33
to look at it, well, you're prone.
26:35
Maybe you'll just accept it. Like, OK, well, that's a good
26:37
point. Well, maybe it's not.
26:38
Maybe the counterpoint that's better.
26:40
I wouldn't know that, you know, But anyway, I'm, I, I apologize.
26:46
I just, I yeah, it was an experimental format.
26:49
I like the debate. I like the points I laid down.
26:52
I think Kevin floundered on important points, including the
26:55
first one. Even if OSAS is true, it's
26:57
worthless, and it absolutely is. True, I really need that.
27:00
Completely all apart at that inquiry, so.
27:02
Jared, can you do me a favor? Can you mute your mic whenever
27:05
smoke he's talking? It kind of screws up his audio
27:08
whenever I'm trying to hear him. Why go ahead.
27:13
Go ahead are. You OK?
27:18
I was just saying, I, I, I really think that there needs to
27:21
be a debate on sanctification because I like people keep, you
27:29
know, debating justification, but I keep saying people making
27:32
sanctification arguments like how like, like about works and
27:38
good works and stuff like that. And I, I think there needs to be
27:42
a debate on, on what sanctification looks like and
27:45
like what, what does the life of a saved believer, you know,
27:49
actually look like? And how does how does the Bible
27:51
describe that? Yeah.
27:57
I mean, that's that. That's a good exploratory topic
28:00
for sure. If you ever found me a debate
28:04
opponent that denies sanctification or denies
28:07
sanctification is essential to salvation, either of those, I'd
28:10
be happy to debate. So if you come across someone
28:13
and you think they're a reasonable opponent, you can
28:16
always drop it out there. Jared.
28:18
I I do, I do encourage and everyone out there is welcome if
28:22
you want to, you know, I don't know, for lack of a better word,
28:26
throw me into the lions den or treat me as the typical spear by
28:29
all means do so I mean. I don't, I don't think it's, I
28:33
don't think it's essentially denying sanctification.
28:35
I think it's more of like what is its purpose?
28:39
Like like like what's the main like like like what is the
28:43
reason for our walk with Christ type thing?
28:47
Sure, sure. Welcome, Chris.
28:50
Free Grace. How you doing?
28:51
Welcome to the room. Back out there, he said in the
28:55
future, you should do live debates on my show.
28:59
You know how I do things? Smoke.
29:01
I was having Kinto and debate people and other users.
29:05
I like it, open discussion. I don't like having to force
29:08
people under 5 minutes or do openings.
29:11
I just want, hello, where's your YouTube channel?
29:14
Who do you send underwear to? That kind of stuff and then get
29:17
right to the shut. That's how I do it.
29:20
Actually, by the way, yes monkey, good to good to actually
29:24
talk to you. I've seen you in chat a bunch
29:26
of. I don't know if it's just me,
29:29
but Chris sounds really low. Yeah, Chris, maybe if you could
29:33
talk closer to your mic or maybe if you see if the settings maybe
29:36
raise the volume a little bit or have the.
29:38
Auto Auto volume. Usually there's a check box
29:43
there for like auto volume adjustment and usually it
29:45
equalizes pretty well. I just clicked it.
29:48
Is that any better? That is better, yeah.
29:52
Awesome. Well good to meet you guys
29:55
again. My name is Chris.
29:56
Obviously I hold more to a free Grace view.
30:01
I watched your debate. I had a couple of questions for
30:04
you. I did want to on the topic.
30:07
You guys were just talking about why people debate and the timed
30:11
formal version versus the just discussion.
30:15
I think both are good depending on the topic.
30:19
But when it comes to the salvation, it's it's tough to
30:22
not for it not to be formal, being that like people talk over
30:27
each other and a point doesn't get across.
30:29
At least in a debate, you can, you know, back someone into a
30:33
corner to where they must answer the question.
30:36
Or I mean, if you have any type of debate skill, you know what I
30:39
mean. Well.
30:41
And, and in some ways you're right, someone like Kevin, and
30:45
I'll just use him as an example, that particular thing gets gets
30:50
very frustrating with him because he will double talk
30:55
non-stop. So it becomes, you know, when
30:58
he's backed into a certain corner, he'll say, we don't do
31:02
anything, God does everything. And then you're like, OK, then
31:06
you start questioning about like, which is clearly
31:08
monarchism. You start questioning down that
31:11
road. And then he goes on to, Oh no,
31:13
it is something we do that we do, we do faith, we do.
31:16
And he did say exactly that during the debate.
31:18
We do faith. And previously, and not only in
31:22
previously in that debate, but previously in our other debate,
31:24
he had said the otherwise. You know that even when I
31:27
brought up that you know that passage, I forget what it is.
31:30
Colossians 123. And or something where you know,
31:33
Jesus, you know what, what work must we do to be saved?
31:35
And Jesus, like the work you must do is to believe, you know,
31:39
and pulling that up. And that's where Jesus is saying
31:41
it's a work, you know, and he wants to dodge around that and
31:44
stuff like, OK, well, it's a work.
31:46
And what he said to me is it's a work, but it's God's work.
31:50
OK, well, then that's monarchism.
31:52
And then like, he's like, no, it's not monarchism.
31:54
So problem with Kevin in these debates particularly, and this
31:57
is what makes him so frustrating to deal with and I hope the
32:00
audience just catches it for his particular brand of soteriology,
32:03
is that it's just all of this double talk.
32:05
And every time I get him into one of the corners, either the
32:09
monarchistic or synergistic corner of his worldview, he just
32:11
jumps ship and hops over. And so that's where it gets that
32:15
timed back and forth, that real rigid.
32:17
It can get frustrating like that.
32:19
I. Think I think.
32:20
The most we got done, I think the most we got done was in the,
32:24
you know, the open conversation. So I was happy with my first
32:28
cross exam, but the second one was kind of like, OK, I'm going
32:31
to keep asking questions, but I'd rather just converse, you
32:33
know what I mean? Like I was at that.
32:35
With it. So the other problem is too
32:37
Smokey is I noticed when people are doing debates, one of the
32:41
reasons that there's a difficult challenge in getting them into a
32:44
corner and just accepting what it is, is is that they will they
32:49
will move the goal posts or they will jump to a totally different
32:52
topic than what what it's actually about.
32:55
That's why you're going to have a strong moderator that says we
32:57
need to focus, answer the question, that kind of stuff.
33:00
I. Actually, go ahead.
33:04
I actually disagree. I, I think the moderate, like a
33:07
strong moderator is good, but if you don't know how to debate,
33:11
that's where the issue comes in. Because a person can jump around
33:15
and, you know, waddle out of a question pretty easily.
33:19
But in, in order to actually be in the, the debate arena, you
33:24
have to know how to put someone in the corner and leave them at
33:27
that question and keep bringing it back until they answer.
33:30
Like, for instance, as much as I'd hate to say it, Smokey did
33:37
an excellent job with Colossians 123 because he kept bringing it
33:42
to the to the front of the line to, to get an answer for it.
33:47
So on that note that that's honestly the way it's got to be
33:49
done. And I love Kevin.
33:51
Kevin's a brother in Christ. I think he did a great job.
33:54
But to the way Smokey stuck to Colossians 123 is the way you're
33:59
supposed to stick to something when somebody can't answer it
34:02
properly. That is kind of the goal too, is
34:06
that to make sure, and especially if the answer is weak
34:10
is you want to usually press like the one thing Kevin tried
34:14
to press me on, but he didn't really press me on it.
34:16
He just asked the same question over and over again, which was
34:19
really about Romans 4 and about the works or about, you know,
34:23
like what is grace and how is it effective to salvation.
34:25
It was kind of the question to keep.
34:27
It was even one of the questions from side chat, which is fine.
34:30
But. Challenge it.
34:32
Press it. If you're going to ask it, press
34:34
like to do the thing where you ask the question, you get the
34:38
answer and you don't like the answer.
34:42
I get it, but then push back on it.
34:45
Have something to push back on that answer.
34:47
Don't just ask the same question again.
34:50
And that's basically what he was doing with that position because
34:54
he just didn't, he didn't have a reputation for the answer.
34:57
He just didn't like it. So he wanted me to reiterate it
35:01
multiple times, hoping there was some loophole that he could slip
35:05
into because he knew he didn't really have an answer to what I
35:07
was saying. And that's why he kept because
35:10
otherwise, if you have the answer, you'll propose it and
35:13
you'll press them, you know, and that's what I tried to do with
35:17
Kevin. The if OSAS is true, it is
35:20
worthless argument was done right away with the first cross
35:24
examination. I made my sufficient point.
35:26
I didn't need to, you know, for the sake of the audience, they
35:29
were even going to get it at that point or not.
35:31
I didn't need to press that for could I made him squirm a bit
35:33
more with it? Sure, but it would have been no
35:35
utility and I wanted to move on. But Kevin wanted to try to play
35:40
that type of gimmicky game to almost give that to me an
35:43
impression that he was doing something when he really was.
35:46
It was really arguing. He was just trying to get me to
35:51
almost argue against myself or or make myself mess up, I guess,
35:54
I thought, but whatever. And I.
35:56
He's your friends. Brother in the Lord and I don't
35:59
I'm not looking for you to come in and and and you've been you
36:01
were very fair in your critique and that's and I and I
36:04
appreciate that. I mean, yeah, at the end of the
36:06
day, I mean, you know, you got to call a spade a spade.
36:09
I I think the highlights were Kevin going about how we're, we
36:17
can't be unsealed with the Holy Spirit and you with Colossians
36:20
123I. I was curious, did you ever get
36:24
another answer to Colossians 123?
36:27
He well. I mean, I got a.
36:30
Answer. I don't think it was a good one
36:32
or he was. I think he had said something
36:34
like, well, that word's translated wrong.
36:35
It shouldn't be if it should be sense.
36:37
And I checked it afterwards and I even checked with Charlie too.
36:41
And that's just it was that was just an outright lie.
36:45
It is. It is supposed to be translated
36:47
if and there's no whatsoever, lexically or otherwise, for it
36:51
to be translated any other way. It is an argument, but I I don't
36:55
agree with it. Well, it's.
36:58
Not even an argument. It's just a lie.
37:00
It's just a false fact. It's not even true.
37:02
It's not even remotely true and I'll pull it up right now if
37:06
you. Want to look No.
37:07
No, no, I believe you. It's just it's been 3 or 4 years
37:12
since I even got into it. But the key it's been.
37:15
A hot minute since I read Colossians all the way through,
37:18
you know, like in fact, I didn't even this verse wasn't on my
37:21
head. I did debate prep with Charlie
37:23
and James and Charlie was the one that brought up, hey, he's
37:27
going to pull up Colossians 2 and he's going to pull up and
37:30
he's going to talk about how like all of our sins are
37:33
forgiven and he's going to say that's past, present, future.
37:36
And then Charlie brought up Colossians one.
37:38
Just go back one more chapter and you see who he's talking to
37:41
that is included in this consideration of who has all of
37:45
their sins forgiven. Who is he addressing?
37:48
And it's addressing the idea of these people here in this just,
37:52
you know, a little bit further in the previous chapter where it
37:55
says you're expecting that all of your sins are are are
37:58
forgiven. If indeed you continue in the
38:02
faith stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the
38:05
gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation
38:08
under heaven, under which I all became a minister.
38:11
So there's a clear conditional before you get to the
38:15
declaration. All your sins have been
38:18
forgiven. So the conditional exists
38:20
previous too. And that's where he stumbled in
38:22
this. Best thing he could do that I
38:23
could see was just outright lie and say, well, that word can be
38:27
translated. Since I found nothing anywhere,
38:29
I could see where that was a possibility that that could be
38:32
translated. Since I don't know where he
38:34
bought that. I think he just made it up on
38:36
the fly. I think he was panicking.
38:37
But as far as I can tell, that's just an outright lie, and
38:40
there's no justification to to translate that conjunction to
38:45
anything other than death. So I don't know where he got
38:48
that. I think that was just, well,
38:50
this passage can't possibly be true because it destroys my
38:53
soteriology. So I better, if something out
38:56
there must be true that makes this not say what it clearly
38:59
says. That's what I was getting from.
39:02
So the way I would view that passage, for instance, when it
39:06
says for you to be presented holy blameable and I believe
39:10
it's here approvable, is that what it says like?
39:14
Are you like, you're not like KJV only or something, are you?
39:18
I wouldn't say I'm KJV only, but I'm pretty.
39:20
Are you KJV preferred? Yeah.
39:25
OK, well I'll tell you what, I'll switch it for you.
39:28
That's fine. I grew up on New King James, so
39:30
usually like if I've memorized a passage or something, that's
39:32
usually like the verbiage. But I do go to the.
39:40
Powerful. Oh, here we are before.
39:44
You, before you get too far into it, I did make contact with that
39:48
person that's supposed to interview you.
39:50
You still haven't given me time or day, but I'll let you know,
39:52
all right? OK.
39:53
Yeah. Just let me know.
39:54
Perfect. So yeah, so here it is, Chris,
40:00
verse 21 says. And you that were sometimes
40:03
alienated in enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now
40:08
hath He reconciled in the body of his flesh through death.
40:13
To present you holy and unblameable and unreprovable in
40:19
His sight, if you continue in the faith grounded and settled,
40:24
and be not moved away from the hope of the.
40:26
Gospel so the way I won't say we the way I view that so this to
40:35
be presented holy, blameable and reprovable in his sight.
40:39
I would view this as a sanctification.
40:42
For instance, if you are not moved away from the hope of the
40:47
gospel, you would. If you continue in the faith,
40:50
you would be in his sight, holy, blameable and irreprovable.
40:53
If you don't that would take away you being holy, blamely,
40:57
and ever approvable. I would still say they're saved
41:00
because of the the last verse, but it would be more of a
41:04
sanctification issue in my opinion than a salvation issue.
41:10
And I think that's what most free I I believe, and I
41:14
shouldn't say that, but I, I believe that's what most free
41:17
grace diabolics you guys would hold to.
41:21
I'm not sure. Kevin's not doesn't hold to Free
41:24
Grace. Diallo.
41:25
Yeah, I know he's not free. Well Kevin isn't anything
41:27
because Kevin is a double speaking confused idiot that
41:29
doesn't know has no clue where he stands on any of this so he's
41:32
not even a metric for anything. I won't go with but.
41:34
In terms of free grace, but in terms of free and this, by the
41:37
way, this was mainly O SAS, but but free grace is certainly
41:39
connected. That's fine.
41:42
So I don't I'm not sure I really understood your point.
41:44
So I mean, I, I, it almost sounded to me like you were
41:48
agreeing with me, like this is a clear condition.
41:50
That you have to. Continue in order for any of
41:53
these to be. Let me and you said something
41:55
about. Being.
41:56
Sanctification. And I agree it's sanctification,
41:59
but I'm not. Anyone saying that this is not a
42:03
clear condition has lost their mind.
42:05
It is. It is clearly conditional.
42:08
OK, fair, Beautiful. The word if you continue, it
42:12
means if you continue in anyone's language, right.
42:15
So the only where we're going to differ is you would probably say
42:21
these people either. I don't know how you hold to it,
42:24
Smokey, If they lost salvation and ever had it to begin with.
42:27
Well, I. Personally, here's the thing.
42:29
I personally am conditionalist, but I can I can just work just
42:34
as well inside like a lordship where they do that crap of a we
42:39
was never saved. OK, fine.
42:40
That's not, you know, if if if it's so big to you to sit there
42:45
because you can't tell by the way, you can't tell either way.
42:48
So it's it's dumb to even propose a position.
42:51
It could be either, you know, like because you're saying,
42:53
well, they were never saved, But that's a that's a loose metric
42:57
to clean to welcome Brother Martin.
43:00
But that's fine if you want to go that way with it, Whatever.
43:03
We ultimately get to the same point, which is that person's
43:06
not saved, whether I believe they lost it or someone else.
43:10
Believes they had it. We still at least agree on the
43:14
core that sanctification is essential.
43:16
You get what I'm saying? So.
43:18
I'm glad you said that because I actually, so I do a lot, a lot
43:21
of debating on Instagram. And one of my core arguments is,
43:26
OK, well, Arminius, who hold to free will, but also hold to
43:31
Lordship salvation versus like a Calvinist who holds the lordship
43:36
salvation. OK, well, a Calvinist is going
43:38
to say, oh, well, they were never saved to begin with.
43:40
They departed from us. They were never of us.
43:42
While someone who holds the salvation loss is going to say,
43:45
OK, well, they lost salvation, but both doors lead to eternal
43:49
like a fire for whoever that person is.
43:52
So it's, it's such a it's it's arguing the same point.
43:56
And then Calvinism goes on the limb and say, oh, we're not
43:59
workspace and stuff like that. Well, no.
44:01
Realistically they're holding to the same conditions any
44:05
conditionalist is, but they're trying to throw faith alone on
44:08
top. Well.
44:10
Did you, by the way, did you catch the, the Standing for
44:13
Truth, the soteriology conference?
44:15
He had way like 5 or 6 guys. Mcmurtry was in there and Ditmar
44:19
was in there and like, so, did you actually watch that?
44:22
I did like to. The tail end, Did you see the
44:24
tail end of it? I agree when?
44:28
When was this? Oh.
44:29
Yeah, that was a hot mess at the end of it.
44:31
That was a. Hot You know what?
44:32
The end of it was probably the most valuable part of the entire
44:37
thing because you saw all these guys that were in there
44:41
basically of a free grace camp, more or less inadvertently and
44:47
accidentally exposing that some of them in there were actually
44:51
lordship. And.
44:54
If there was just an impromptu kind of clash at the tail end
45:01
over I think it was Mcmurtry, and there was one other
45:04
gentleman there that were holding this position, that if
45:08
someone did a certain thing, they would have revealed that
45:11
they were never saved. And for the real free gracers in
45:15
the room like Ditmar, that would be offensive because he has the
45:19
position. There's nothing you can do to
45:20
possibly lose. Yourself.
45:22
They had a yeah, they had a bit of a A class situation.
45:28
And I found that very frustrating with Kevin and with
45:31
disingenuous with the whole blasphemy of the Holy Spirit
45:33
question. Yeah, but he's like, yes, I'm
45:37
like, what are you talking about?
45:39
Anyway, but Smokey, to your point to bring up, the only free
45:43
gracer was Denmar everybody else?
45:47
Well. I think so I.
45:50
Think that, Yeah, actually even standing for Truth slipped up
45:54
because he he talked about the mark of the beast.
45:58
This is for standing for Truth. Didn't realize how he messed up
46:02
until I I don't even know if he even still does know how he
46:04
messed up. Standing for Truth said, well,
46:06
if there's a saved believer who's on their way to get the
46:10
mark of the beast, God will strike them dead before they get
46:13
there. Yes, the.
46:15
Tacit admission. The tacit admission in that is
46:18
if you're saved and you managed to take the mark of the beast,
46:21
you would lose your salvation. So he does admit that there is
46:25
something you can do realistically to lose your
46:29
salvation if God allowed you to do it.
46:33
Are you? I've never heard him say that.
46:35
I mean, I'll take you for your word.
46:36
Do you want I'll, you know what, I'll pull it up right now, man,
46:39
It was, I don't even mind reviewing it again.
46:41
It was great. It was, it was amazing Standing
46:43
for truth. Did I would be.
46:44
I would be shocked if Donnie said that I would.
46:47
What if, if, if, if he said what?
46:49
What I just said if if he he said that.
46:51
If Donnie would admit to there is a type of salvation loss,
46:56
yeah, I'd be pretty shocked to hear.
46:57
That no, no, no, he wouldn't admit it.
46:59
That was no, no, no, don't misunderstand.
47:00
That was his tacit implication because he said, well, if a
47:05
saved person is going to go take the mark of the beast, God will
47:08
take them out before they can do it, which there's nothing in
47:11
Scripture to support that at all.
47:13
But he also But he also said. What that means, what that means
47:19
is that if a saved believer did take the mark of the beast, they
47:24
would lose their salvation. That's what he's saying.
47:27
He's saying if they did that, they would lose their salvation.
47:29
So God has to act to stop that. That's admitting something
47:34
exists in reality that could be done by a believer to cause them
47:38
to lose their salvation. That's the tacit admission in
47:42
the statement that God would have to kill them to keep them
47:46
from doing it for them to keep their salvation.
47:48
I. Don't want to put words?
47:50
It becomes monarchistic. I don't want to speak for Donnie
47:53
especially. I mean, I don't know him as
47:55
well, but he's probably Speaking of just an earthly death and not
48:01
a salvation law. So for instance, yeah, if
48:04
someone's on their way running to go with the mark of the
48:06
beast, if he said God's going to strike him dead, he means that
48:10
on that they'll still have salvation, but they took an
48:13
earthly death. But that.
48:16
The. Point is, the point is that he
48:18
admits that there is something that that's a believer could do
48:23
that would cause them to lose their salvation.
48:26
Otherwise God wouldn't have to take them out.
48:29
See where someone like Dittmar would say or or layman's
48:33
seminary, Charles would say, even if you take the mark of the
48:36
beast, you're still saved. So that's a problem that is a
48:41
form of lordship, because you're saying if they were allowed to
48:44
take the mark of the beast, they're damned and they will
48:49
have lost their salvation. Or, and I'll give it to you,
48:52
maybe they were never saved. I don't make that argument.
48:57
Well, Donnie does. Donnie's made that argument with
49:00
me many times. I found it very frustrating
49:02
because he jumped between the two.
49:03
He jumped between assassin Free Grace.
49:04
Donnie used to do that to me. He'd he'd go whenever he'd get
49:07
back into the corner, he'd be like, oh, they were never saved.
49:11
So Donnie has held lordship standards before.
49:14
Years ago when I was debating him on this topic, that was his
49:17
escape route. They were never saved.
49:20
To be fair, if you if you anything.
49:22
But I don't know what Donnie is these.
49:24
Days, brother. Martin.
49:25
Probably knows what Donnie is better these days.
49:27
I don't even know what he is to be honest with you.
49:29
I have no idea. I would just say.
49:33
Well, no, I would just say when we reviewed that video, Smokey,
49:37
there was a part where he said all those that God has
49:40
predestined will be glorified. And he just took like a high
49:44
Augustinian predestination point.
49:48
And I was pointing that out and I was kind of like, oh, OK, so
49:51
now he's more like on. Well, think.
49:54
About the implications, the idea that you had people going to
49:58
take the mark of the beast, They've all accepted and
50:01
believed the gospel. If any of them get there to
50:04
actually do it, it's because God didn't stop him, which means he
50:07
wanted them to go do it, which means they weren't elect.
50:10
This is problematic. Unless you're going to embrace
50:14
full tilt Calvinism with this type of stuff, I don't see how.
50:18
Like. That's like, so like this is
50:20
like the same like frustration with somebody like Kevin
50:26
Soteriology or others like him. On the front end, they want to
50:33
affirm some form of libertarian free will, like human
50:37
responsibility. But then on the back end they
50:40
want to totally deny it. And you know, sort of just kind
50:43
of like, like, I don't understand the reason why Kevin
50:46
makes videos against Calvinism, but you want the benefit of
50:50
Calvinism in that God is going to predestine you not to lose
50:54
salvation. So like your free will is just,
50:58
I don't want to say obliterated, but God's just making sure that
51:03
your will, like if you're choosing to apostasize or
51:06
whatever, like God's going to make sure that's not going to
51:08
happen. So like people like Kevin
51:10
Spectiology, I'll just simply say just in love, stop playing
51:14
games with this off libertarian free will notion and just be a
51:18
compatibilist. You know, it's just, it would
51:20
just make more sense across the board.
51:23
If you guys don't mind, I'd like to ask you both a question of
51:26
Chris and I can't see the name on the guy that was just.
51:30
It's Brother Martin. Brother Martin.
51:32
All right. Thank you, Smoke.
51:33
I appreciate that. Can you 2 explain what your
51:35
theological position is on the matter?
51:38
I'd love to hear it. On which on?
51:44
The topic we've been talking about for the past hour?
51:46
No 51 minutes and 46 seconds. I haven't been in here that
51:50
long, I'm sorry. Well, my SO too.
51:53
And were you asking? The two gentlemen that have been
51:57
talking about the discussion with Smokey and about the
52:00
debate, I was wondering what their theological position is.
52:03
Aren't they seem like they're pretty intelligent guys so I was
52:06
just curious where they're coming from on it.
52:09
I'll go second if the other gentleman wants to go first.
52:12
Yeah, sure. I'll just say I'm Augustinian.
52:15
Just simply means I believe that God's elect are going to
52:20
persevere, but I do believe that true believers can apostasize if
52:26
that makes sense. All right.
52:29
Where are you on the? What I'm also asking is your
52:32
thoughts on free will predestination.
52:34
Where do you fit in on that as well as Chris?
52:38
I would just simply say I do believe in the form of free
52:41
will. Like if if, if you feel
52:43
comfortable in saying some form maybe of a soft libertarian free
52:47
will, but I would just simply say those that persevere reveal
52:52
that they're God's elect and those that apostasize reveal
52:55
that they're not God's elect, even though they were true
52:57
believers. I want to say to Jared real
53:01
quick, because I noticed he typed this in private chat.
53:03
I, I think that you're very intelligent Jared.
53:06
It's just that these two were have been the ones mainly.
53:08
I was just, I was just kidding. All right, well, I'll just let
53:11
you know I don't want you to have a say out on me, brother.
53:13
I love you, you know that? We all know it.
53:17
It's fine. It's no big deal.
53:19
He's used to it. Alright, Jared.
53:22
As for me, I hold a classical free grace view.
53:26
There's a couple of things in there that I, I don't agree
53:29
with. You know, there's a common
53:31
argument of, oh, you know, people can go and be believers
53:34
and worship Satan and be saved. I really don't see any believers
53:38
going to worship Satan. Exactly.
53:40
I see people falling from faith in the Bible, I see people
53:44
shipwrecking their faith, I'd even see people worshipping
53:47
other gods and still being saved.
53:49
I just don't see actual I worship Satan well.
53:54
Here's the thing, those people do exist and I'll name you even
53:58
one local in this community, Thick Shades.
54:02
Thick Shades is a free gracer and he believes the free grace
54:05
gospel. But if you question thick shades
54:08
about some of his peripheral theology, he'll start talking to
54:11
you about things like the Mandela Effect.
54:13
And he'll start saying things about how Satan has authority
54:17
and power over reality, the reality that God created and has
54:21
the ability to shift and change things and even has authority
54:24
over scripture itself to change what Scripture Scripture says in
54:28
a Mandela Effect reality shifting type of way.
54:32
So he presents the idea of actually a worship of Satan and
54:36
giving him supremacy to God and his beliefs and teachings.
54:40
So they do exist. They might not be the pentagram
54:45
wielding, you know, goat sacrificing, you know, sitting
54:49
on a fence, crowing at the moon horseshit type, but they do
54:52
exist and they are out there. One thing I think we're going to
54:59
go ahead, Jared. I thought you were going to say
55:01
William Freeman. I was also wanting to.
55:06
That is funny. I got to respond to Chris.
55:09
Chris, I appreciate what it is you don't like or what it is you
55:12
don't believe, but I mean positively, what do you believe
55:16
theologically? And Martin, I appreciate you
55:18
responding. Theologically, I believe that
55:23
any believer that holds to the gospel First Corinthians 15 one
55:27
through 4 get sealed with the Holy Spirit that that seal is
55:32
forever until the day of redemption.
55:34
Either that we get a raptured personally or as a group.
55:40
I don't believe that lifestyle has anything to do with
55:43
salvation. I believe sanctification is
55:47
something every mature believer should be doing and walking a
55:51
proper lifestyle to God. But there is immature
55:56
Christians, Corinth, etcetera. Can I ask a?
56:02
Question. Sorry, I just want to, I just
56:07
want to ask a question on that point you made.
56:10
How do you how do you differentiate between someone
56:15
who is immature and someone who has someone whose faith is
56:21
disingenuous or or is not genuine?
56:27
How? Would you?
56:29
How would you determine that? A a false conversion or an
56:33
immature believer, basically. Yeah.
56:36
So, yeah, yeah. So how would you, how would you
56:39
differentiate or how would you know if someone is just immature
56:43
in the faith or if their faith is not?
56:47
Genuine. Yeah, Yeah, great question.
56:49
So first, before I answer this, please, I, I mean this with all
56:52
due respect, I'm not, I'm not about to say this in any
56:55
disrespectful manner. So please nobody take offense to
56:58
it. When it comes to a, in my
57:03
opinion, of a false conversion, that would be somebody that's
57:06
not fully persuaded in the Gospel.
57:09
So somebody that does hold to conditionalism, somebody that
57:14
does hold to faith, plus anything that basically would
57:19
take away from John 316 would be a, in my opinion, a false
57:24
conversion. The immature believer, I believe
57:28
we see in second Peter chapter 1 Peter gives a list of things to
57:34
to add to your faith. People not adding that list of
57:39
seven things would be immature believers.
57:42
People adding to that would be mature believers.
57:44
So if you see somebody walking around in a lifestyle of sin,
57:48
not knowing much about the Bible, not trying to study,
57:51
pray, worship, etcetera, adding to their faith, virtue,
57:54
knowledge, temperance, godliness, self-control,
57:57
brotherly love, kindness. If they're just sitting stagnant
58:01
in their Christianity, that just be an immature believer.
58:03
They're saved, but extremely immature, and they're going to
58:08
face consequence for not hell, but consequence.
58:16
OK, take it, Chris. I appreciate your response.
58:19
I take it you believe that there should be action for Christians
58:23
in order to be able to level up, you know, get the power pellet?
58:27
Absolutely there's listen one of the worst things I'm reading
58:32
that banner. Even if Osos free grace are
58:36
true, they are useless. OK so man, I hope my brothers
58:41
don't kill me for this. It is.
58:44
It's biblically true in my opinion.
58:46
There are a lot of them that are useless.
58:48
I mean, there's no doubt about it.
58:51
Why argue? They're all useless For two
58:54
reasons. One, because it requires
58:56
epistemological certainty in order to apply it, and #2
59:00
because you have no metric of which to judge it.
59:02
Because you can't use fruits to judge salvation, so you have no
59:05
metric of which to look at a human being to judge whether
59:07
they're saved or not. So actually I argue on those two
59:10
points that even if it was true, it is completely useless
59:12
doctrine therefore likely isn't true.
59:15
So I mean, I respect your opinion, I would just strongly
59:19
disagree. So I know many brothers in
59:22
Christ that are absolutely as free grace as they come and.
59:27
And if they suddenly renounce their faith and became, you
59:30
know, say, for instance, part of the clergy project, are you
59:33
familiar with them? Slightly.
59:37
Clergy Project is a collection of particularly ex religious
59:42
professionals. So these were people in paid
59:45
positions of ministry leadership, churches, pastors,
59:49
you know, things of that nature, even seminary professors, things
59:52
like this. And they renounced, denounced
59:55
their denounced their religion and said Nope, not for us
1:00:00
anymore. Hold on, let me close this real
1:00:02
quick. Save OK, renounced to the
1:00:08
religion. Now, these people at a very
1:00:11
basic level all believe the gospel and certainly delve
1:00:14
deeper than pretty much probably most of us.
1:00:16
If any of us, if anyone had a higher probability of being
1:00:20
saved or to have dealt deep enough to understand the gospel
1:00:23
at a really profound level, it would be that.
1:00:25
And especially when easy believers say you just need that
1:00:28
very, very surface level understanding of the gospel and
1:00:31
acceptance or to be saved. These are people who delve very,
1:00:34
very deep, even beyond that, and they denounced their faith.
1:00:39
They were done with it. So what is their state?
1:00:42
Are they going to be taken back to heaven at the end, or are we
1:00:46
going to claim by some crazy insane miracle that they never
1:00:50
had their salvation at all? That Holden never had salvation
1:00:54
at all, I think is a weak. By the way, if salvation is as
1:00:58
easy as all the pre gracers say and it's just that mental ascent
1:01:03
that the gospel is true, then they were all saved so they're
1:01:08
all going to heaven and free grace is true.
1:01:11
All these deviants that now spend their life preaching
1:01:14
against and hating God, this demonic satanic organization of
1:01:19
hatred against Christianity are all a bunch of saved believers.
1:01:23
Brothers in Christ, I can't accept that.
1:01:26
That's a great argument. It's a great argument that
1:01:29
you're having there, but I will I will say this and this is
1:01:31
where I differ a common argument or or a common thing that goes
1:01:36
against free grace. Well, this is you guys just say
1:01:39
just believe and be saved. Well, yeah, absolutely we do
1:01:43
believe. Just believe and be saved.
1:01:44
The issue is most professing professing Christians aren't
1:01:49
actually believers. So for instance, some guy that
1:01:53
you know is stuck inside of a works based gospel and stuck
1:01:56
inside of. Oh, wait a minute.
1:01:58
Who are you to determine that? I mean I have biblical language
1:02:02
for it, but. Well, no, But who are you to
1:02:05
determine and just make a overarching proclamation that
1:02:11
some professing believers aren't saved when you yourself say you
1:02:14
don't know for sure who's saved and who's not because you don't
1:02:18
ultimately know? I never said I don't know who
1:02:21
saved and who's not. You just said there how?
1:02:25
Can you possibly know I'm? Not well, that's.
1:02:27
Why I'm I'm not, I'm not saying I did.
1:02:29
What I'm saying is I never said that.
1:02:31
Well, you said there's professing believers who aren't
1:02:33
real believers. That's what I'm saying.
1:02:35
Who are you to make that claim? So within within the book of
1:02:40
Romans, we see that when that person is, it was imputed to
1:02:46
righteousness for Abraham because he was fully persuaded
1:02:49
on what God has promised. So use these words fully
1:02:51
persuaded. I believe that a person, I
1:02:55
believe that a person that is not fully persuaded in the
1:02:57
gospel, like for instance, someone that's trusting half in
1:03:01
Christ and half in their lifestyle, I don't think has
1:03:05
been fully persuaded in the gospel.
1:03:07
They're fully persuaded in what the Pharisees taught.
1:03:09
Wait, So what if they? OK, go ahead.
1:03:13
No, go ahead. Go ahead.
1:03:13
Go ahead. No, in fact, go ahead.
1:03:15
I'm going to go grab a drink. You gentlemen have your little
1:03:17
thing. I'll come back and I'll.
1:03:18
I'll jump back in. Go ahead, go ahead.
1:03:20
So So what if what if they believe that?
1:03:25
What if they believe fully on Jesus?
1:03:27
And then they happen to have believed, well, hey, because I
1:03:31
believe in Jesus, I now want to do these things.
1:03:35
And because I do these good things, it's because Jesus leads
1:03:37
me to do that. It's a.
1:03:39
Beautiful thing, glory to God. Well, is that is that believing
1:03:44
on their lifestyle or or is that just believing or is that just
1:03:48
believing because I've because I believe in Jesus and understand
1:03:52
what he did for me. I want to commit my life to him.
1:03:55
Is that is that workspaced or? Absolutely not.
1:03:58
That would be, for instance, to, to most conditionalist.
1:04:02
I would they, they would probably look at my my lifestyle
1:04:05
and say, yeah, you're, you're pretty good.
1:04:07
But this has nothing to do with any salvific nature.
1:04:11
When it comes to a person actually trusting in the gospel
1:04:15
and being mature enough to try to live a proper life.
1:04:18
That's a beautiful thing. That's not workspace.
1:04:20
I think where you may and I'm I'm assuming this is where the
1:04:24
mistake is. I'm not saying this is, but I'm
1:04:26
assuming I believe that you're crossing free grace with hyper
1:04:30
grace. So hyper grace is they hold to
1:04:36
it's it's the only books for the Gentiles are Romans, the
1:04:38
Philemon's If you say God, forgive me, you're being works
1:04:43
based. If you try to get out of a sin
1:04:46
that's works based that free grace theology doesn't hold to
1:04:50
that at all. We we want mature believers.
1:04:54
No, no, no, that's not, that's not what I'm asserting on on, on
1:04:59
you as a free gracer at all. What I'm what I'm finding
1:05:03
trouble with is that you deem sanctification as optional
1:05:07
rather than as something that's expected after someone has
1:05:11
received this has received the Holy Spirit.
1:05:13
Because if sanctification is optional, then what's the point
1:05:17
of the book of Acts? Why didn't the apostles just
1:05:20
stay in the upper room and not do anything if they just.
1:05:23
I mean, I can make those, I can make those same arguments and
1:05:26
say if sanctification wasn't optional, what's the point of
1:05:29
all the warning passages? Why wouldn't that just happen
1:05:31
and everybody would be fine? So the argument and when it
1:05:37
comes to sanctification not being optional, if I was to ask
1:05:40
you, OK, well how much sanctification does a person
1:05:42
need to have? You're probably going to say
1:05:44
something like, Oh well, we all fall short or something to that
1:05:48
nature. Well, it seems, it seems to me
1:05:51
when people assert that sanctification is an option,
1:05:56
they seem to be giving more power to the sin rather than the
1:05:59
holy. Spirit, no, not at all.
1:06:02
Well, here, like for instance, I'm not trying to be personal
1:06:05
with you, but I mean, you would admit you're a Sinner, right?
1:06:10
Of course. OK, so the Holy Spirit inside of
1:06:13
you, is he failing most of the time?
1:06:18
No, it's me that's failing. OK, but so you would equate the
1:06:22
good that you do you you probably you hold like a
1:06:25
compatibilism view, right. So it's the, well, the only good
1:06:29
I. Do.
1:06:30
The only reason I do any good is because of God.
1:06:33
He's the one that's leading me to to do to do the good work.
1:06:36
OK, why is and I know this sounds like a rough argument,
1:06:39
but please understand where I'm coming from.
1:06:41
Why is God failing at times? Why are you still sinning?
1:06:46
I'm still saying because I choose to give into my sinful
1:06:50
nature rather than yielding myself to the Holy Spirit.
1:06:54
Right. But you're not more strong.
1:06:55
You're not stronger than the Holy Spirit of God, right?
1:06:59
No, I'm not. That's why I That's why I need
1:07:02
to yield to it. Right.
1:07:04
But you're ultimately you're failing.
1:07:06
Now you may be failing with style, like you may sometimes
1:07:09
not do that sin, or you may sometimes try to live a better
1:07:12
life, but ultimately, at the end of the day, you're failing.
1:07:18
Yeah, sometimes I fail, sometimes I'm a Victorian.
1:07:21
Sometimes I'm victorious. I I would think for the most
1:07:24
part you would. I would think that most people
1:07:28
would say yeah, for the most time I'm failing.
1:07:32
I know we don't hold the Catholicism where our good ways
1:07:34
out are bad. No, no I don't.
1:07:37
Hold that no right? So when it comes to me and you
1:07:41
failing most of the time, if the true believer, and I'll use that
1:07:46
term that most people use, the true believer is you know, going
1:07:50
to for surely live this better lifestyle.
1:07:54
Well then me and you really suck because for the most part we're
1:07:57
failing. It is optional, brother, and it
1:08:00
has things that has everything, all types of things.
1:08:05
Well, well, here's the thing though, is do you, do you
1:08:08
believe that temptation in in and of itself is a sin?
1:08:14
Do I believe that temptation in itself is a sin?
1:08:16
I I don't. OK, great.
1:08:20
Because you know, Jesus, Jesus was tempted, but without sin,
1:08:23
right? So we're all tempted every day.
1:08:26
So. So can we choose not to sin when
1:08:30
we're tempted, especially when we have, can we, can we, can we
1:08:33
choose not to give in to the temptation, especially
1:08:36
especially when we have the Holy Spirit?
1:08:38
OK, so then you can choose not to sin, especially when you have
1:08:43
the Holy Spirit, you have the helper.
1:08:45
Oh. I'm not, brother.
1:08:48
I don't know which free gracers you've been talking to.
1:08:49
So Amen. I'm not disagreeing with that.
1:08:52
Yes. No I I'm just trying.
1:08:56
To Jared, when you get an opportunity, I posted a link in
1:08:59
private chat for you. You may want to check it out.
1:09:01
It's a condenser microphone. Sounds a lot better.
1:09:04
Had it really. Helped.
1:09:05
I'm on my. Phone.
1:09:07
Yeah, I'm also on my phone. I'm sorry if I'm screwing you
1:09:11
guys up. No, no.
1:09:12
You. Sound great?
1:09:12
Chris, you sound great. The suggestion was for Jared.
1:09:17
But yeah, Jared. I I can't install the mic on my
1:09:20
phone. It's my phone mic.
1:09:21
I mean, unless you want to buy me a new phone.
1:09:25
Well, I'm going to bring this back around because I do want.
1:09:31
With smoke. Can I ask you a question,
1:09:33
Smokey? Yeah, go ahead.
1:09:35
Yeah. It's it's kind of like in the
1:09:37
debate, like the debate like, yeah, with Kevin, I'm still, I'm
1:09:41
still trying to understand the whole issue with an action,
1:09:49
faith being an action or like you still use the term like a
1:09:54
work or something like that or whatever.
1:09:57
I'm trying, I'm trying to understand like why, Why is the
1:10:02
language that you are using is the problem?
1:10:05
And this is like, this is the killer part for me.
1:10:08
Like you're not saying a meritorious word, right?
1:10:11
So it's kind of like like a when he was when Kevin was saying
1:10:15
things about what that's kind of like semi meritorious work.
1:10:19
I'm just kind of like, that's so bizarre and crazy because you
1:10:25
can't like it's not even semi. So it's just like if God by his
1:10:29
grace is offering you forgiveness, you have a choice
1:10:33
to either comply or not like Christ dying on the cross as a
1:10:37
substitute for sinners to be forgiven.
1:10:41
Or like let's just say you believe in past, then no, you
1:10:44
believe past possibly and present sins forgiven.
1:10:47
And the believer, if they do a wolf of sin or whatever, like
1:10:51
they have to confess their sin. Like that's not a work.
1:10:55
I mean a work of merit, right? But to your point, the believer
1:10:59
does have to confess, which is an action of faith or work of
1:11:02
faith to be forgiven. I just don't understand like why
1:11:06
is that was so like a I don't know an issue.
1:11:10
Here's the thing. Here's the thing in, in some of
1:11:12
those those positions, especially with something like
1:11:14
that, I am arguing my position, but I'm arguing the very, very
1:11:19
first tiny step of it because if I can at least get into that
1:11:22
first tiny step, then the rest of the way is something to be
1:11:25
done. They believe any work at all
1:11:30
that you're doing under salvation means it's meritorious
1:11:32
and worthy of boasting. My whole point, and This is why
1:11:36
I mentioned so many times during the debate, you can't boast over
1:11:40
any of your works because none of your works would matter.
1:11:43
None of your works would count to anything had God not moved
1:11:48
first, with no, with no merited favor.
1:11:53
Because there's nothing so great about humanity that merits its
1:11:56
redemption. That's why it's Grace.
1:11:59
Right. And then also.
1:12:01
The offer of the gospel is what is offered by grace, not each
1:12:05
one of your individual salvations.
1:12:07
It's the meta, It's the all umbrella.
1:12:10
It's the beginning, starting of everything.
1:12:13
It's not eliminating, devaluing or erasing the essentially work.
1:12:17
So what I'm, what I'm trying to do, especially with people like
1:12:20
Kevin, is start at kindergarten levels to at least get him the
1:12:24
idea to understand that even belief is something you have to
1:12:28
do and it merits you your ticket to salvation.
1:12:32
So clearly the whole meta of this, the whole perspective is
1:12:36
profoundly gross and problematic.
1:12:40
You see what I'm saying? Yes, and then like because when
1:12:43
I was watching, when I was watching that part, I'm just
1:12:46
like when Kevin was saying what he was saying to you when you're
1:12:50
trying to explain it, I'm just like to me, I was just like
1:12:52
Kevin ontologically, we're not we don't have we're not like
1:12:55
God. Like to me, I was just kind of
1:12:57
like what Smokey is saying. This is not like hard to
1:13:01
comprehend. They may not like what you're
1:13:04
saying. Like basically you have to.
1:13:09
That's what it was. They just didn't like it.
1:13:11
It's not that they had. Kevin didn't have any good
1:13:13
arguments for anything that I presented and and even the one
1:13:19
that he probably relied the most on Colossians was catastrophic
1:13:24
for him. He had to basically outright lie
1:13:26
about a word, you know? Yeah, I feel like I wouldn't
1:13:31
like I guess I would have asked Kevin.
1:13:33
OK, So like if first John is written to combat like
1:13:37
dosesitism and these people believe like you, you can't sin
1:13:41
or whatever, you can't sin in a brush or whatever.
1:13:43
Why is John ensuring them that if they do sin like they have
1:13:50
advocate with the Father and then also like in first John 19,
1:13:54
he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse
1:13:56
us from unrighteousness. You know, like I hear like
1:13:59
certain, I know there's a gentleman here that's free
1:14:01
grace. I don't know, he's a classical.
1:14:03
I don't even know what that is a classical free grace or
1:14:05
whatever. I'm just being honest.
1:14:07
But he has some free grace to say like, oh, that first John 19
1:14:10
is applied to sin in the flesh and it's just kind of like,
1:14:13
well, what what is that? What is the father cleansing in
1:14:17
the flesh? I just don't I don't understand
1:14:19
that. And then they take out, they
1:14:21
take like this dualism type perspective, which is probably
1:14:24
not, you know, but that's the only.
1:14:27
One my whole point, just so you know.
1:14:32
Oh, did Chris drop out? He might have dropped out.
1:14:35
Hold on. I have to add him back.
1:14:36
Chris, is that you back? Yeah, I think.
1:14:40
Chris, are you there? He had dropped out, I think.
1:14:45
OK, see if he gets. But Chris, we can't hear you if
1:14:47
you're talking just so you know. So maybe he dropped out again,
1:14:51
OK, He might be having some connection issues or something.
1:14:53
So anyway, yeah. So Brother Martin, really my
1:14:56
position is that the faith is a work and that is a doing.
1:15:01
It's something we do and it's not just a one time doing.
1:15:03
It's actually a commitment doing.
1:15:04
It's an ongoing doing. It's a non-stop doing.
1:15:08
And this is where Christ has talked about the way is narrow
1:15:10
and the road is hard. It's hard to get there.
1:15:12
No, if it's hard that reads leads me to believe that it's a
1:15:15
road. It's something you have to
1:15:16
actually walk. It's you have to go a long time.
1:15:18
It's not something that's just some singular point in your
1:15:21
life. That's all you have to worry
1:15:22
about. This is a road.
1:15:23
This is something you're supposed to walk, and it's hard.
1:15:27
And the way that the easy believers present it, this is
1:15:29
not hard. This is a this is a very wide
1:15:32
Rd. This is just a moment of a
1:15:33
census suspending disbelief in a particular factoid about human
1:15:38
history. Where is the virtue in this that
1:15:41
God is supposed to be so be so ecstatic about?
1:15:46
Just the ability of the human psyche to suspend disbelief at a
1:15:50
certain historical factoid is not any moral virtue worthy of
1:15:54
the sake of salvation or to be considered to be included in
1:15:58
God's plan of salvation or His offer to salvation that belongs
1:16:03
to the people who submit to Him. Who?
1:16:06
Who? Give their lives over to him
1:16:07
fully and completely. You want to talk fully
1:16:09
persuaded? OK, well, we're going to get.
1:16:11
Here's the thing. I want to circle back to our
1:16:13
topic here with the Abraham thing, because this is important
1:16:16
and I want to make sure this got out from last night.
1:16:18
And while it was sandwiched in with all the other stuff, I want
1:16:21
to spend a little more time specifically on this, on what
1:16:24
was the faith of Abraham and what was it exactly that
1:16:28
justified it? Because the Free Grace camp is
1:16:30
telling me that Abraham suspended disbelief in the
1:16:35
promise of God. He believed what God said, and
1:16:38
that in and of itself was attributed to him, to
1:16:42
righteousness. There is no way the Bible
1:16:45
supports that. And I'm going to prove it.
1:16:48
And I'm going to prove it through exegesis tonight.
1:16:50
And we're going to talk about it.
1:16:52
And that's exactly what we're going to do.
1:16:53
So what I want to start with go ahead.
1:16:56
If anyone wants to say anything before I begin, get it out.
1:16:59
That's what I was going to say, I guess.
1:17:02
You know what? I guess I got to wait till after
1:17:04
I asked my question. Yeah, I can wait till after.
1:17:07
Go ahead. OK.
1:17:09
All right. So I'm going to start with here.
1:17:11
I'm going to move some things around.
1:17:13
Give me a second. We already dealt with the
1:17:17
Colossians thing. I'm not going to rehash that.
1:17:22
OK, we're going to start over in Romans 4 because I know that's
1:17:26
kind of one of the the favourites.
1:17:29
Let me get that on the screen. And this one, of course, free
1:17:35
gracers and also Calvinists love Romans 4 because of the
1:17:41
statement about works. Oh, you know what?
1:17:46
I'm just going to do it this way.
1:17:47
Hold on. Smokey, with all due respect,
1:17:49
I've never been on your channel. So is it more like everybody?
1:17:55
Everybody's quiet and then you, you know, you, you go well.
1:17:58
In this, generally, no. I mean, when I invite people in,
1:18:01
I do like an open organic format and sometimes it even gets
1:18:04
derailed and I even allow that. That's fine.
1:18:06
But generally if I'm going to go into something that I want to
1:18:11
pitch to the room or to the audience or something, this
1:18:13
generally I would want a bit of concentration and allowance for.
1:18:18
But yeah, but, but in general, yes, when I, when I have it open
1:18:22
and we're in discussion, yes, anyone can join and anyone can
1:18:25
contribute. Yes, that is the policy.
1:18:28
So I'm going to start here with Romans 4.
1:18:31
Just let me get this. I was also going to say I'm a
1:18:34
little bit more talkative usually, but you guys seem like
1:18:38
you were interested in discussing the debate with
1:18:40
Smokey and I have been trying to be respectful and set back.
1:18:45
Right. So let me get this all screen
1:18:47
here. OK?
1:18:52
All right, perfect. OK, so this is where we're going
1:18:55
to start. And this of course, is one of
1:18:56
the favorite passages, and we're going to start here, which is in
1:19:00
Romans 4. And this is where we get our
1:19:03
kind of main, I guess, focus, at least soteriologically from any
1:19:07
of the camps of the idea of what saving faith is, or at least in
1:19:10
a representative example by drawing back to Abraham.
1:19:15
Now, let me say this, Let's just get this off the bat and we can
1:19:18
settle this. And if anyone wants to debate me
1:19:20
on this later, then we can handle that.
1:19:22
To me, this is the argument that is essentially the defeater, the
1:19:26
end all be all defeater for any type of salvific
1:19:29
dispensationalism at all. To try and claim that the Old
1:19:33
Testament people were saved by a different way than the New
1:19:37
Testament people were, I think is destroyed basically by the
1:19:41
simple fact, this simple fact that the New Testament writers
1:19:45
draw reference to how Old Testament people were saved and
1:19:50
justified. And it's the exact same as us,
1:19:52
I. Agree.
1:19:54
OK. So to me, right there, the New
1:19:59
Testament writers. Simply by doing that alone have
1:20:03
completely annihilated any camp or position through the idea of
1:20:08
salvific dispensationalism. Now, I'm not including all the
1:20:11
dispensationalisms out there in that, but this right here to me,
1:20:16
for the specific salvific dispensationalism, to me, it's
1:20:19
over. There's there's no, there's no
1:20:22
coming back from that. Anyone wants to debate that or
1:20:24
think they got a good counter argument or something, step up.
1:20:28
To me, this proves it. The fact that they're
1:20:29
referencing them as an example, Old Testament people, as an
1:20:33
example of how we are saved today, I think ends that
1:20:37
argument. So we got that out of the way.
1:20:39
That's done with. So let's read.
1:20:42
What then, shall we say, was gained by Abraham, our
1:20:45
forefather according to the flesh for if Abraham was
1:20:49
justified by works. And this is the challenge Kevin
1:20:52
had to me last night. You remember, because my answer
1:20:54
was, well, this is works of the law.
1:20:57
And he said, well, how do you, how do you know that?
1:20:58
Where does it say that? Well, I'm going to get to that.
1:21:00
And I had it preloaded in my brain.
1:21:02
I don't know why it skipped on me last night.
1:21:04
I should have mentioned it, but I'm going to mention it tonight.
1:21:06
I'm going to show you exactly where it says that and how we
1:21:09
know exegetically that it is talking specifically about works
1:21:12
of the law. So it says by works he has
1:21:15
something to boast about, but not before God.
1:21:18
So he did do works. He did do works, and he did do
1:21:20
good works, but certainly none of his works were the locks.
1:21:22
The law didn't exist yet, but there probably was a law just
1:21:25
like there was a Noahide law. Noah had something that he was
1:21:28
abiding by to be seen as righteous before God, something
1:21:32
that he was doing to showing his fidelity and commitment,
1:21:34
including up to building this, this giant boat, you know, which
1:21:38
was supposedly a grand endeavor that took a good chunk of his
1:21:40
life to accomplish. This was done as an action of
1:21:43
commitment and fidelity, not just suspending a belief of the
1:21:47
existence of God. This was a true act of genuine
1:21:50
commitment and it reflected his heart.
1:21:52
And what was his heart? His heart was absolutely
1:21:54
submitted completely and fully to God and is submitting to its
1:21:57
plan in His direction and doing what he wanted.
1:21:59
Did he do it perfectly and every single aspect?
1:22:01
Of course not, no one does. But He was seen as righteous by
1:22:05
his fidelity, his commitment. And this is where I'm going to
1:22:08
prove this. So it says by works he has
1:22:10
something to boast about, but not before God.
1:22:11
For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God hears that
1:22:15
word. So the drawing reference to the
1:22:17
Old Testament believed God and it was accounted to him as
1:22:20
righteousness believe. What is really the question
1:22:23
ultimately? What is it exactly that Abraham
1:22:27
believed? And you see, when you go back to
1:22:28
the context of this, I believe it's Genesis 12 right around
1:22:32
there when Abraham is encouraged to leave and the such, and he's
1:22:37
outside. And God points to all the stars
1:22:39
in the heaven and says, hey, your, your, your, your
1:22:41
descendants will be as greater than all the stars in the sky.
1:22:44
And back then there's no light pollution, so you can probably
1:22:46
see every freaking star that existed.
1:22:48
So as a grand, you know, example of his descendants and who they
1:22:52
would be, the sons of Abraham, of course, which we now know
1:22:55
with the completion of the gospel, all the Gentile
1:22:57
believers have now been grafted in or are now part of his
1:23:00
descendants as well. So Abraham was promised
1:23:05
something and then following the verse, it says Abraham believed
1:23:08
God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.
1:23:11
Well, now what does that mean? Does it mean he just suspended
1:23:14
disbelief to this promise that God had had given to him?
1:23:19
No one. Clearly not.
1:23:20
And the context shows that because Abraham didn't just
1:23:24
believe God, and he didn't certainly believe God in any
1:23:27
type of way that the free gracers would say where he was
1:23:29
fully persuaded. No, he wasn't.
1:23:32
He was fully persuaded. He wouldn't have, you know, lied
1:23:35
to Pharaoh about his wife. He wouldn't have taken Hagar to
1:23:40
try to quick up, you know, God's plan and make sure it happened
1:23:45
by making sure that he had a son.
1:23:46
Because he was not trusting that he was going to have a son
1:23:48
through Sarah, as God had promised, clearly, which is why
1:23:51
he went about this. So no, he was not fully
1:23:53
persuaded. He did not fully trust, he did
1:23:56
not fully give in to God in that regard in believing what he
1:23:59
said. So what did he believe?
1:24:00
What does this word mean? Well, maybe it doesn't really
1:24:02
mean mental assent or just suspending disbelief at all.
1:24:06
Maybe the context is telling us very clearly this is not what
1:24:09
it's talking about. Just because the word was
1:24:11
translated believe, we let Bible interpret Bible.
1:24:14
OK, And if Abraham is being used as an example of what he did in
1:24:19
order to be saved and the Word just happens to be believed,
1:24:22
well, we need to let the Bible let us know what that means.
1:24:25
Now Abraham was justified, but not because he believed God,
1:24:29
because he didn't. He didn't believe the things
1:24:31
that he said clearly. So that wasn't it.
1:24:33
So what was it? If it wasn't just suspending
1:24:36
disbelief to these promises that he clearly disbelieved, then
1:24:39
what would it be exactly? Well, I'll tell you what it is.
1:24:41
It's commitment, it's fidelity, it's a giving over of oneself to
1:24:48
God. That's what it is.
1:24:50
That's really what happened here.
1:24:53
God said I'm going to do all these things for you, Abraham.
1:24:57
I'm going to make your descendants great.
1:24:59
He's God isn't asking anything of him for this.
1:25:02
God isn't making any demands of him for this.
1:25:05
God is just approaching Abraham and promising him and, and
1:25:09
telling him I'm going to do all these wonderful things for you.
1:25:13
And Abraham committed, OK, I'm going to do it.
1:25:19
Now did he believe ultimately that all these things we're
1:25:21
going to do? Clearly not, Clearly not, but he
1:25:25
committed, he obeyed God when God told him what to do, when
1:25:28
God gave him a command, when God wanted to work with him or
1:25:32
operate with him to do something or to accomplish something.
1:25:34
Abraham gave himself over to God completely.
1:25:38
In the modern Christian life, if you have the Holy Spirit, the
1:25:43
Holy Spirit has the ability to to instruct you and guide you
1:25:48
into the decisions and you can do one of two things.
1:25:52
You can listen to it, you can reject it.
1:25:55
I argue from my position. You can reject him once, you can
1:25:59
reject him twice, maybe you can reject him 100 times.
1:26:01
I don't know. He's going to have a different
1:26:02
level of patience for every person based upon their
1:26:04
position. It's his good judgement as to
1:26:06
what that is. But at some point, just like the
1:26:07
Jews in Jeremiah, the glory of the Spirit is going to depart
1:26:10
you just like I did Saul, just like it did the Jews at Jeremiah
1:26:14
at the temple. He's going to leave.
1:26:16
And the thing for the believer to realize is that they want to
1:26:19
have reverence to God and they never want to go searching for
1:26:21
what that line might be. Or God is going to cut you off
1:26:24
and say enough is enough and you are.
1:26:26
You are no longer with me. And I am not going to waste my
1:26:30
precious Son's blood on your constant insults to his
1:26:33
sacrifice and the grace that I've shown.
1:26:36
And I'm not going to force you to turn the temple of my Holy
1:26:40
Spirit into a den of harlots, whores, and thieves.
1:26:43
There will be a time, just like there was in any of these other
1:26:46
examples. So what is it that Abraham
1:26:48
showed? It wasn't suspend absolute
1:26:51
suspension of disbelief in the promises of God.
1:26:53
That's not what it was clearly, because that's not what
1:26:55
happened. So the Bible's going to help us
1:26:57
interpret Bible. So, but what did Abraham show?
1:27:00
Abraham showed a willingness and a commitment to give his life
1:27:02
over to God, to submit to him completely and fully.
1:27:06
And when God told him to do something and command him, he
1:27:08
went and did something. He didn't have an O SAS or free
1:27:11
grace perspective of any of this.
1:27:14
And the type of commitment that justified was the type of
1:27:17
commitment that led him to those actions.
1:27:20
The type of faith that he had was the type of faith that led
1:27:24
to those actions. And without the faith that led
1:27:27
to those actions, there was no faith.
1:27:30
And by the way, as I see in the main point of the book of James
1:27:32
two, in the book of James chapter 2 is to say you cannot
1:27:37
have works without faith. You just can't.
1:27:42
So, so why do you think you can separate them?
1:27:45
You can't show me works, good works without faith.
1:27:49
And that is the nature of things.
1:27:51
Only by faith can we please God. And only works of faith are
1:27:56
pleasing to God. Fidelity, commitment, giving
1:27:59
oneself over to to the grander plan, to whatever God would
1:28:02
desire. That's the true submission.
1:28:04
And that is a hard road to follow.
1:28:08
That's the narrow Rd. That's a hard one.
1:28:10
That's one probably all of us stumble on.
1:28:14
And whether or not we are saved has to do with whether or not we
1:28:19
decide to get up and continue to push and continue to fight or we
1:28:23
give up. We abandoned our faith.
1:28:25
We be the the bad seed on the rocky soil that's taken over by
1:28:29
the cares of the world. And we dry up and we shrivel up
1:28:31
and we die. Our faith is dead.
1:28:34
And I, I will hold to and I will defend absolutely that dead
1:28:37
faith is worthless faith. And I think that is also the
1:28:40
point of James too. So clearly Abraham showed
1:28:42
something other than what the free gracer Campbell tells me is
1:28:45
the mechanism of, of salvation. Clearly that's not what it is.
1:28:50
And this is the example we have in both the Old Testament and
1:28:52
the New Testament of what it is to be saved.
1:28:56
Now I want to move over to another passage and this is in
1:29:01
regulations to 2nd. I'm definitely going to rebuttal
1:29:08
all that at some point. I hope that's OK.
1:29:11
Well, I'll tell you what, if you want to give a brief rebuttal
1:29:13
now and if it's, if it's not something I'm about to cover
1:29:16
right away and then I'll I'll give you an answer.
1:29:18
Go ahead if you want to give a quick rebuttal because that was
1:29:20
a big point that was particularly on Romans, Romans
1:29:23
4. And I'm about to jump back to
1:29:25
Romans 320 to clarify, but go ahead and give you a quick
1:29:27
rebuttal. So the when it comes to you
1:29:31
saying Abraham didn't believe God clearly also in Romans 4,
1:29:38
when you get to Romans 4/21, it says and being fully persuaded,
1:29:44
I'm sorry, verse 20 and he staggered not at the promise of
1:29:49
God through unbelief, but was strong in faith, giving glory to
1:29:53
God and being fully persuaded. That's where we get that fully
1:29:57
persuaded word and being fully persuaded that what he had
1:30:01
promised, he was able to perform and therefore it was imputed to
1:30:06
him for righteousness. So it said that he didn't
1:30:08
stagger through unbelief, but he was strong in faith and that he
1:30:12
was fully persuaded. And what God has promised, it
1:30:15
was imputed to him for righteousness.
1:30:17
That's where we get the a person has to be fully persuaded in
1:30:21
order to be imputed the righteousness of God.
1:30:23
That would be our argument. OK, well in any case, it
1:30:31
doesn't, it doesn't really actually go against my point.
1:30:34
In fact, you're just arguing for the essentiality of
1:30:36
sanctification, which is this growing type thing component
1:30:39
which you're adding into the mix, which is fine, you know,
1:30:42
that's fine. I'm OK.
1:30:42
Because again, my whole point is here is that the real faith, the
1:30:46
real saving faith comes packaged with a commitment and a
1:30:49
subservience and a willingness to obey.
1:30:52
So. Obviously it's it's, it's your
1:30:54
show. So obviously go and and make
1:30:55
your points, but it may be and sometime we can come back to
1:30:58
that verse. But go on.
1:31:00
Thank you for allowing me to rebuttal.
1:31:02
OK, OK, so perfect. So and again, let's consider
1:31:07
this in the context of again, what I just read and you did see
1:31:09
where where Abraham's faith quote UN quote or belief in it
1:31:14
did waiver. But you know what didn't waiver
1:31:17
was his his commitment. His commitment stayed true to
1:31:20
God. That's again where I would give
1:31:21
extra clarification to this as well, but let's go ahead and go
1:31:24
back to Romans 320. Now, this is important to me
1:31:29
because this is the context. This is the chapter just
1:31:31
immediately where it's talking about works and works
1:31:35
justifying. OK, And then it brings up
1:31:38
Abraham. Well, what type of works?
1:31:40
What is the reference point previous to this that Paul is
1:31:43
giving in terms of works? What is the type of works that
1:31:46
he's talking about? Well, here we have in Romans 320
1:31:50
for by works of the law, no human being who will be
1:31:54
justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge
1:31:58
of sin. So here we have the very clear
1:32:02
clarification right before we get to Romans 4 where he's
1:32:06
saying Abraham was not justified by works.
1:32:10
Well, this was the answer to Kevin's question.
1:32:12
Where does it say that this is the works of the law?
1:32:14
This is the clarification. This is the context of the works
1:32:17
that Paul is talking about. Clearly this is the lead up that
1:32:21
goes into chapter 4 and this is what he's talking about, that
1:32:24
the works, the law and I held that to be true last night and I
1:32:28
presented that fact. No one performing the
1:32:31
sacrificial system or the the the aspects of the sacrificial
1:32:35
system was doing that for the sake of their salvation.
1:32:39
That was not a salvific action at all.
1:32:41
That was a covenantal action to protect them and their nation
1:32:46
from from invasion, to show their covenant and their
1:32:48
commitment to the holy God for their protection, for their
1:32:50
safety and for bounty and harvest.
1:32:52
And we don't have that promise. We have promised things are
1:32:55
going to be shit and we're going to be persecuted and things are
1:32:57
going to be hard. OK?
1:32:58
That system was never about salvation, and the modern
1:33:04
Judaizers of Christianity were trying to say that it was.
1:33:07
And Paul has a lot of that correcting to do in a lot of
1:33:11
these gospels to remind people, hey, no, you don't get it.
1:33:15
Those works of the law that had nothing to do with the sake of
1:33:19
salvation, This is that's a completely different thing.
1:33:24
The works are separate. This is something, this is
1:33:27
something else. This is where he's drawing this
1:33:29
line of the works of the law doesn't mean every work you
1:33:33
could possibly do for God altogether.
1:33:36
That's not what he's talking about.
1:33:38
He's talking about these archaic traditions that had been
1:33:42
fulfilled, that had been passed on, that were never salvific to
1:33:46
begin with, that now people are trying to make salvific and
1:33:49
merge with Christianity and Paul is going against us.
1:33:52
And also in Galatians, in fact, you will see this exact same
1:33:55
language in the book of Galatians and trying to deal
1:33:59
with that Galatian heresy of the Judaizing.
1:34:02
That system was never about salvation.
1:34:05
People were saved back then the same way they are now.
1:34:10
A commitment to God and His desires and a submission to Him,
1:34:14
and all that He sees is good. Love God, Love your neighbor as
1:34:19
you love yourself. If you do those things, you're
1:34:21
doing well. All of the law hangs on those
1:34:24
two things. This is in fact, anything about
1:34:27
the law is just giving you an example or or an idea of what it
1:34:32
is to ultimately keep those first two commandments.
1:34:35
It's pretty much the entirety of the law.
1:34:37
And the law is really only for evil people because if you're a
1:34:40
good person, the law doesn't need to apply to you.
1:34:42
The law applies to bad people who want to do bad things.
1:34:45
That's who the law applies to. And the law lets you know that
1:34:48
you're a Sinner because it lets you know that a certain
1:34:50
standard, you cannot reach up to God's standards.
1:34:53
And this is partly of the need for the gospel.
1:34:55
So as we can see here, this is the clarification that Kevin
1:34:58
really wanted last night. This was this was it that that
1:35:01
in this particular context, he's talking about the works of law.
1:35:03
How do we know this for sure? That also that gives us our
1:35:06
extra exegetical point that when Paul is talking in Romans 4, he
1:35:10
specifically talked about how Abraham's not not justified by
1:35:14
works of the law, but not by any works at all.
1:35:17
Because then we have to go to James too.
1:35:19
And I know free gracers hate James too, I'm aware of that.
1:35:23
But that's going to be. Nice, I adore James 2 but go on
1:35:26
well. Good.
1:35:27
Good, because most free gracers, despite most free gracers, will
1:35:31
call me out of my name and outright heretic for just
1:35:35
reading straight from what it says.
1:35:36
James 2 is my second favorite book of the Bible.
1:35:40
I get I've I've gone into rooms and I've just read straight from
1:35:44
James chapter 2 have been called a blaspheming heretic, which is
1:35:47
which is rather didn't even didn't even summarize it.
1:35:49
Just read it and call the heretic right away.
1:35:53
OK, So what good is it brothers, if someone says he has faith but
1:35:57
does not have works, can that faith save him?
1:35:59
If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily
1:36:02
food and one of you says to them, go in peace, be warmed and
1:36:04
filled without giving them the things needed for the body, what
1:36:07
good is that? So also faith by itself, if it
1:36:10
does not have works, is dead, but someone will say you have
1:36:14
faith and I have words. So this is them again, that I
1:36:18
think this is addressing the free gracers, that you can draw
1:36:21
a division between the two, that they are not necessarily
1:36:25
contingent upon the other, that they can be separated, that one
1:36:29
doesn't necessarily have to follow from the other one.
1:36:32
This is to me is answering this exact very challenge right here.
1:36:36
And he says to go on, show me your faith apart from your
1:36:39
works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
1:36:44
So the idea here is show me your faith apart from your works is
1:36:47
an idea of show me the separation.
1:36:49
Can you even do good works if you don't have faith?
1:36:53
You can't do good works without faith in the Bible is clear.
1:36:56
You can't because only by faith can you please God.
1:37:01
So only a work that's done in faith has the capacity or the
1:37:05
ability to please God. So how are you going to say that
1:37:09
you can divide them and that somehow they're in, they're not
1:37:14
connected to each other. And this is what I gather from
1:37:17
this, is that you cannot draw this division.
1:37:18
I hear many of the free greats are showing you believe that God
1:37:22
is 1. You do.
1:37:23
Well, even the demons believe that.
1:37:24
Look, even the demons managed to suspend disbelief of the
1:37:28
existence of the gospel and the existence of God.
1:37:30
It doesn't. It doesn't save them.
1:37:32
It doesn't redeem them. You do.
1:37:36
You want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart
1:37:40
from works. Apart from works is useless.
1:37:44
Calling the pregracer is foolish.
1:37:45
I I hope you're not offended, Chris.
1:37:47
I think he's calling you you guys.
1:37:49
I think he's calling you guys out of your name here.
1:37:51
No, I'm, I'm not offended. I just think you have, I think
1:37:54
you have a bad understanding of James too, but go on.
1:37:57
OK, what does it say? What did Jesus say?
1:38:00
You can't call him a fool or else you're in danger of
1:38:02
Hellfire. Remember that.
1:38:04
You must not think they're brothers.
1:38:06
That must be what's, you know, going on there.
1:38:08
That must be what's happening. OK, so here's here's the kicker.
1:38:13
Here's the important part. Says was not Abraham our father
1:38:16
justified by works? Here it is when he offered up
1:38:21
his son Isaac on the altar. Here we go.
1:38:25
So now this is that final triad of the clarification of this
1:38:29
grand poem. He didn't.
1:38:31
Abraham didn't just suspend disbelief and the promises of
1:38:35
God because clearly he faltered that and was not fully persuaded
1:38:38
and then absolutely believed, but was still somehow justified.
1:38:41
The one key train of of Abraham's life that you can
1:38:45
point back to was his desire to please God and submit to God in
1:38:49
his works. That showed that not his
1:38:52
suspension of disbelief of anything about God or his
1:38:54
promises, but a commitment. This is what's being used as the
1:38:58
example. It's not what he thought about
1:39:00
God or his mental state about God.
1:39:04
This is not what's referenced in terms of his justification.
1:39:07
What's referenced in his justification is what he did.
1:39:11
Because the faith that saves is the type of commitment that
1:39:15
would inspire exactly that. It's the type of commitment that
1:39:18
would inspire someone to be thrown to lions, to be
1:39:22
decapitated in front of their family, to have all their
1:39:26
possessions taken, to have their loved ones murdered in front of
1:39:29
them. That's the type of saving faith
1:39:33
that fully submitted, giving the entirety of your life over.
1:39:37
That's the type of faith that saves.
1:39:40
That's a type of faith that Isaac, that Isaac, certainly
1:39:43
Isaac that Abraham definitely showed.
1:39:47
And you know, let me just tell you something.
1:39:52
This is a little bit funny. Bear with me.
1:39:54
I'm going to tell a joke. Let's break it up here a little
1:39:55
bit. This isn't to me the most
1:39:59
faithful act, the most incredible, like massive jump
1:40:04
declaration of incredible show of faith that Abraham ever did.
1:40:11
I think there's one better because I'm going to tell you
1:40:15
what it was a real big show of faith, of confidence and
1:40:21
commitment and submission to God.
1:40:25
For him to walk home one day after, you know, going up in the
1:40:28
hill and having a little chat with God and comes into the tent
1:40:33
and there's the maidservants and the manservants and, you know,
1:40:36
the household's all there. And, you know, maybe Sarah's in
1:40:40
the kitchen, you know, cooking something.
1:40:42
And all the the manservants are like walking up to him, like,
1:40:45
hey, buddy, you're Abraham. Welcome back.
1:40:47
Eliezer is there, you know, maybe hands him a beer.
1:40:51
He's like, so hey, how how was it out there?
1:40:52
You know, how was it today? Have a good, good chat with God.
1:40:55
And Abraham's like, yeah, you know, it was, was a, was a good
1:41:01
chat and he's got something else he'd like us to do.
1:41:05
He's like, oh, really? OK, interesting.
1:41:07
Yeah. OK.
1:41:07
Well, what's, what's the plan? What's God got on the agenda?
1:41:11
He's like, well, he wants us to. Go ahead and.
1:41:17
Cut the tips of our Dicks off. That's apparently a thing now
1:41:23
that's going to be a, a covenant between me and the generation.
1:41:27
So you go get the knife, sharpen it up and I'll meet you outside
1:41:31
in 15. And that's how that went.
1:41:35
So that's a big sign of faith. Not only is that a sign of faith
1:41:38
and commitment, fidelity to him, but really his whole household.
1:41:40
That was A to me, that's a big one.
1:41:42
You imagine Abraham coming back one of those days and being
1:41:44
like, Yep, God told me God chop our Dicks off.
1:41:46
So let's get to it. You know, I mean, that's that's
1:41:48
a big show of faith. So anyway, little, little light
1:41:53
in the mood humor there for everyone on that.
1:41:55
I think that was a bigger show of faith than even this.
1:41:58
That's a joke. Of course, I'm being facetious.
1:42:00
Naturally, this was an incredible show of faith.
1:42:03
Now, the apologists many times will tell you, ladies and
1:42:05
gentlemen, that Abraham's faith was so concrete and absolute in
1:42:10
terms of the promise, which clearly it wasn't, which is why
1:42:13
I hate this argument. But his faith in the promise was
1:42:16
so absolute that he believed that God was going to raise
1:42:19
Isaac from the dead. Maybe he did, but that's an
1:42:22
addition. That's an apologetic.
1:42:24
It's just something someone throws out there.
1:42:26
There's nothing in the text that ultimately eludes that.
1:42:28
We don't know that. What we do know is this God, he
1:42:33
submitted to God fully and completely, and he obeyed what
1:42:36
God want to the best of his ability.
1:42:38
Perfectly, no. But did he always show that
1:42:40
commitment, that fidelity to God?
1:42:42
He did, and he showed that through his whole life.
1:42:44
Even if he had moments where he did not believe the promise or
1:42:48
did not believe what God was going to do, He did, at least at
1:42:51
the very least, consistently through his life.
1:42:53
The type of faith that justified, showed that ongoing
1:42:55
commitment. That's what I would argue.
1:42:57
It's the faith that saves, the faith that will endure him.
1:42:59
If you have a faith that does not endure, and I don't care if
1:43:02
you want to say it was a fake faith, it was a non existent
1:43:05
faith. They never had faith or they
1:43:06
lost their faith or they lost their salvation.
1:43:08
And result is the same. No faith, no salvation and a
1:43:11
story. That's just how it is.
1:43:13
And the faith that Abraham had was the faith that endured.
1:43:16
It's the faith that endured his whole life.
1:43:18
It's the faith that kept him going.
1:43:19
It's the faith that kept him submissive.
1:43:21
It's the faith that kept him obeying God.
1:43:23
And that's the example we have. So it's not the example we have
1:43:26
of saving faith of justification.
1:43:28
It's not the type of faith that just happens for a second and
1:43:31
then it's gone. Like like O SAS free grace
1:43:34
generally want to present could be valid.
1:43:35
No, no, no. The example of saving faith, one
1:43:38
of the greater examples of saving faith we have is Abraham.
1:43:40
And it's here in Romans. It's it's in James 2.
1:43:43
It's also in Hebrews. I mean, Abraham has brought up
1:43:45
multiple times as an example for salvific justification.
1:43:49
And what was the example that Abraham showed?
1:43:52
A lifelong commitment and submission.
1:43:54
And to try to claim otherwise is nonsensical and anti biblical in
1:43:58
my mind. This is the type of stuff that
1:44:00
true saved believers will do. This is the type of commitment
1:44:03
they have. This is the saving faith.
1:44:04
This is what the Bible shows us It is.
1:44:06
And it's not what the free gracers say with the suspension
1:44:08
of disbelief. It isn't because that's not
1:44:10
that's not what Abraham had and he was not fully persuaded in a
1:44:13
suspension of disbelief type of way.
1:44:15
And to even use that language, which is not what it was
1:44:17
clearly. So clearly it was something
1:44:19
else. And this is what it was.
1:44:21
It was this giving over the life to the trust that you're talking
1:44:25
about is a trust and fidelity of giving over to of submitting to
1:44:29
like a king, like a subject to a king.
1:44:31
Like that is the exact type of situation we ultimately find
1:44:34
ourselves in anyway. So you see that faith was active
1:44:39
along with His works, and faith was completed by His works.
1:44:45
This is the thing that faith that would save, that would
1:44:48
justify that thing He had that made him save, that made him
1:44:51
righteous in the eyes of God, was the faith that made works.
1:44:56
And that's just undeniable. And that's where you get our
1:44:58
idea of sanctification. And this right here proves to me
1:45:01
that sanctification and justification cannot be
1:45:04
separated. They cannot be alienated from
1:45:06
each other. You cannot have one without the
1:45:08
other. And this is the example of that.
1:45:11
Let me pull up Hebrews 11 real quick.
1:45:13
So I'm going to go this and this will finish my point because
1:45:15
this is again just another example of exactly how this idea
1:45:19
of the justification or the example of the type of faith,
1:45:23
the faith that saves is again relayed back to Abraham again in
1:45:28
the New Testament. If the Bible says something
1:45:30
once, it's probably pretty important.
1:45:31
If it says it, you know, two or three times, it's really
1:45:33
important. It says it more than that and
1:45:35
it's super important. This seems pretty important.
1:45:37
So it says. Now faith is the assurance.
1:45:40
So you have assurance in something not absolute Cartesian
1:45:43
knowledge. You have assurance of things
1:45:45
hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
1:45:49
For by it the people of old received their commendation.
1:45:53
By faith we understand that the what fucking version is this
1:45:56
hold? On Smokey, where was all this
1:46:00
during the debate? What do you mean?
1:46:05
No, I got some of this out, I just didn't unpack.
1:46:07
It this is. No, I mentioned the Abraham
1:46:10
stuff, but I just didn't go into it in depth like this.
1:46:13
I wouldn't have had time for this in the debate, dude.
1:46:15
Like you, clearly you could see that.
1:46:17
I mean, I want to add like maybe if it was a debate on the faith
1:46:21
of Abraham, yeah, this is what I would have done.
1:46:24
But this was just part of this was just part of the package,
1:46:27
says Now faith is a substance of things hoped for, the evidence
1:46:30
of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a
1:46:32
good report through faith. We understand that the works
1:46:34
were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen
1:46:37
were not made of things which do appear by faith.
1:46:40
Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain,
1:46:43
by which he obtained witness that he was righteous.
1:46:46
Again. Witness he was righteous by
1:46:48
doing something. God testifying of his gifts, and
1:46:51
by it he being dead, yet speaketh by faith.
1:46:55
Enoch was translated. We got to Abraham.
1:46:59
Noah, of course. Here we go.
1:47:01
Abraham, wait. Smoking.
1:47:03
What? Yes.
1:47:04
What? Go ahead.
1:47:05
Yes. Couldn't, couldn't someone say,
1:47:07
well, Cain did something too? Well, yeah, exactly.
1:47:11
You know what? That's a good point.
1:47:12
Exactly. Cain did something too, but he
1:47:14
did he do it in faith? No, no, he did it out of a sense
1:47:18
of repetition or basically the way that a secular Jew might,
1:47:23
you know, try to indulge in a temple sacrifice or something of
1:47:27
the like. You know, not that they actually
1:47:28
believe in it or, or even secular jewels will do some of
1:47:31
those traditional things just because it's part of their
1:47:32
culture. He was doing it not out of a
1:47:35
sense of, of joy, of love, of worship, right?
1:47:42
A sense of obligation, not really heart or faith in it at
1:47:44
all. Clearly it was him just going
1:47:47
along for the ride out of a sense of obligation to do, but
1:47:49
his heart wasn't in it. And he really didn't seem to
1:47:52
have that type of of commitment or fidelity to God.
1:47:55
He was doing the action, but the heart was not behind it.
1:47:58
So there was no manifestation of no goodness of the work.
1:48:01
So not not an excellent sacrifice.
1:48:04
So good point. But good to bring up, Jared.
1:48:06
Good point. So by faith, Abraham when he was
1:48:09
called to go out into a place which he should after receive
1:48:12
foreign inheritance obeyed. This is this is again part of
1:48:20
the encompassing idea when Abraham is being mentioned.
1:48:23
Is this constant example of modern New Testament saving
1:48:29
faith. What does that look like?
1:48:32
It's not you going to Webster's and looking up the word believe
1:48:37
means the Bible defines itself and we use exegesis to do that.
1:48:45
This is how we find out what was it that Abraham what what was
1:48:50
the substance of that faith, that saving faith that Abraham
1:48:56
had? Well, we go to the Bible, we go
1:48:58
to the New Testament for it to show us.
1:49:00
We look at the life of Abraham and the examples that were
1:49:04
provided to us. Abraham lived a long life.
1:49:06
We get a very tiny bits of these segments that are only the most
1:49:11
important for exhortation or you know, that all, all of Scripture
1:49:17
is, God breathes, so on and so forth.
1:49:19
All of those things. That's what we get.
1:49:21
We don't get the whole picture. We get the stuff that's
1:49:24
important for us to know. And in terms of salvation and
1:49:28
what's being referenced in the New Testament, his faith was
1:49:32
more than just a suspension of disbelief.
1:49:34
In fact, it clearly wasn't even that because he fumble all over
1:49:36
the place with that. It was something else, it was a
1:49:39
commitment, and it was a submission to the holy God that
1:49:43
endured until his dying day. That's the example of the saving
1:49:50
faith, of the faith that saves OSAS.
1:49:52
Abraham didn't exist. And if he did, probably would
1:49:58
have just sat on his ass and not said a God damn thing or done a
1:50:02
damn thing because he didn't have to worry about it.
1:50:04
Because honestly, isn't that the type of faith that an O sasser
1:50:07
can have where it really all of it's optional?
1:50:11
I don't feel like it. No, I don't want to, you know, I
1:50:13
don't want to go that way. I like my family, you know,
1:50:15
know, God, I'm going to stay here.
1:50:16
I'm already justified. I don't want to do all this
1:50:18
travelling and stuff and go to somewhere I don't know, with a
1:50:20
bunch of people I don't know. I'm going to attack marauders
1:50:22
and thieves and and I got to go through kingdoms and people
1:50:25
don't know me and I don't speak the languages.
1:50:27
To hell with all this. I'm not doing this.
1:50:29
It's hard. The path of faith is hard.
1:50:33
The path of salvation is hard. Christ himself said it.
1:50:36
He said it's hard and it is hard to walk this path.
1:50:40
Easy believism is a wide road and it's not a hard path and
1:50:44
you're only betting your own soul on it.
1:50:46
So you know, by all means guys, you want to believe it, believe
1:50:50
it. I'm not placing this bet.
1:50:52
I'm just not when you when you got to jump through so many
1:50:55
fringe hoops of interpretation to try to adopt something just
1:50:59
because it makes you feel better and just flies in the face of
1:51:01
the meta scripture. This is a wide easy Rd. and I
1:51:06
don't believe that's the road to salvation.
1:51:08
And you shouldn't either. If you want to place that
1:51:10
Batman, it's your soul. But you know what?
1:51:13
On that last day, don't be showing up and being like, oh,
1:51:16
no one was there to tell me. Because whether I'm burning in
1:51:21
hell or up there chilling, God's still going to point at me and
1:51:24
say, Hey, I sent someone to warn you.
1:51:26
I'm not saved by the way. I'm not even saved because I do
1:51:29
a good work or because I, I, I have a YouTube channel or I do
1:51:33
good things. That's not what saves me, my
1:51:37
commitment to Christ in what I do.
1:51:39
As you say, I'm going to have a YouTube channel and and spew
1:51:43
horrible heinous blasphemies and biblical destructions for two
1:51:49
hours. I'm not doing anything good or
1:51:52
virtuous, am I? Excellent point.
1:51:59
So, Mr. Smokey. Your works have to be backed by
1:52:02
faith and your faith has to have works.
1:52:05
That's all there is to it. And with that, yeah, I'll go
1:52:07
ahead and wrap up. I'm going to go grab another
1:52:09
beverage, Brett, if you want to. I have so many questions.
1:52:13
Or anyone else wants to chime in, you're welcome to do so.
1:52:16
Smokey's got to get a beverage real quick.
1:52:18
He definitely rocked it for a good 1520.
1:52:22
Very good, Sir, very good. He'll be back in just a moment.
1:52:25
He's just got to get him some throat juice.
1:52:27
Yeah, I'll, I'll definitely wait for him.
1:52:32
So, Brother Martin and Chris, how's your day been?
1:52:35
Oh thank God, man. Quiet.
1:52:38
How about yourself? I've been doing pretty good
1:52:42
working on my website and also looking at video responses done
1:52:46
to me. I don't know why people got to
1:52:48
be so hateful for where's the love?
1:52:50
You know what I mean? What about you, Martin?
1:52:52
How's your day been, Martin? You didn't fall unconscious on
1:52:59
me, did you, brother? No, I've been doing good about
1:53:02
God's grace. Good deal.
1:53:06
Good deal. All right, So do you guys got
1:53:10
any hobbies while we're waiting on Smokey?
1:53:15
Oh geez, hobbies. You know, like fishing?
1:53:19
Yeah, looking at pictures and stuff.
1:53:21
Yeah, it's so sad. I'm trying to think of 1 and
1:53:25
sadly I don't think I do, which is kind of pathetic.
1:53:28
What about music you play? Acoustic or anything?
1:53:31
I wish I did, My whole family does except me.
1:53:35
Well, you said something about you like to get involved in
1:53:38
debates and all that. Yeah, I guess that.
1:53:40
I guess that in a way is a hobby.
1:53:42
Yeah. So I run a Instagram platform
1:53:45
and I do a lot of apologetics there and teaching the scripture
1:53:50
and debating Lordship salvation. I grew up Pentecostal for the
1:53:59
most of my life and then started reading the Bible and that's
1:54:04
basically what I, that's basically what I talk about is
1:54:07
against Pentecostalism. Hey, Charles, Charlie Michaels,
1:54:13
how you doing? I hope you feel better today.
1:54:14
He was pissed yesterday. I hope he's doing well today.
1:54:18
Hey, so Brother Martin, you got any hobbies?
1:54:21
Any hidden talents? Yeah, I just like to read like
1:54:28
theological books, Puritans, stuff like that all.
1:54:34
Right. And yourself, Sir?
1:54:37
Oh me, I enjoy doing music, I like working with graphic, I'm a
1:54:42
very creative type of person like that.
1:54:45
But I also like chill and relax and I'm into fishing and such
1:54:48
like that. Don't think I'm as good as the
1:54:50
disciples. They seem to be able to catch
1:54:52
quite a bit of them. They can even catch gold coins.
1:54:55
They're pretty good. Yeah, and I I enjoy YouTube.
1:55:01
I would use Instagram, but isn't that a system where you require
1:55:05
a phone? I prefer use an external mic and
1:55:08
being able to use my PC. Yeah.
1:55:12
I I think you can use APC etcetera, but for the most part,
1:55:18
yeah, it's phone. So you say you do graphic
1:55:21
designs and stuff like like if I needed someone to make like a
1:55:30
short stick figure cartoon, is that a possibility?
1:55:36
Like do you know anybody that does that?
1:55:38
You talking about animation of the stick figure or just a
1:55:42
typical stick figure? Animation of a stick figure.
1:55:47
Stick figure. What do you want to do?
1:55:48
And throwing me into a bucket of fire or something?
1:55:51
What do you want the? Animation to.
1:55:52
Do. I need the Internet to show some
1:55:57
stick figures walking into a church.
1:56:01
It's. Going to go against your
1:56:05
theology. I won't say that, but I'll
1:56:08
gladly pay. I need the stick figures to walk
1:56:11
into a church and for the pasture to the stick figure
1:56:15
pasture to kind of condemn the church type of thing.
1:56:19
Why does it have to be stick figures?
1:56:21
Wouldn't you be more into something that's more cinematic,
1:56:25
something that looks more realistic?
1:56:28
I mean, if that's a possibility, sure, but I figured stick
1:56:31
figures are the easiest way. Well, I'll tell you what, if
1:56:33
this is an interest of yours and you still hold to it, my e-mail
1:56:37
is brettkeenphone@gmail.com. Hold on, let me get.
1:56:42
Some. Notes open all right.
1:56:44
They got say that one more time for me.
1:56:49
Brett Keane Like what you? Well, you don't see it on the
1:56:52
screen unfortunately, right? Brett keanekeanephone@gmail.com
1:56:58
If you don't write it down correctly, I got all my
1:57:03
information under the description of every video I do.
1:57:07
Looks like Smokey is back. Did you gentlemen have some
1:57:10
questions for him? You can just private chat and
1:57:13
ask me questions while you're. Dealing yeah and anyone else the
1:57:15
reminder. I know our viewer account
1:57:17
dropped a little bit, must be getting late.
1:57:20
If anyone that wants to contribute, the link is in the
1:57:22
side chat. If you want to challenge, if you
1:57:24
want to just give a comment or opinion whatever the link is
1:57:27
posted. Anyones welcome.
1:57:29
So keep that in mind. I didn't watch.
1:57:31
I know praise was doing some sort of review debate review.
1:57:33
I didn't watch it. I'll I'll check out I'll scroll
1:57:35
through it later. But anyway, so if anyone wants
1:57:38
to come in and contribute or ask questions or challenge on this,
1:57:41
Chris, if there's anything you want to say or brother.
1:57:43
Yeah. You guys want to ask what?
1:57:45
I might be a little lengthy. This one if you want, of course.
1:57:49
I don't. I don't want to butt in.
1:57:54
So to to your first point with Abraham not believing the
1:57:58
promise when Romans 4 states pretty clearly he staggered not
1:58:05
at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strong in
1:58:07
faith and being fully persuaded that what he had promised he was
1:58:12
able to perform. Where are you getting that he
1:58:14
didn't believe the promise when is clearly clearly that he
1:58:18
strongly believed it? We'll see.
1:58:21
That's the thing, you're, you're forcing the contradiction.
1:58:25
I'm, I'm, I'm solving it. I'm not allowing A
1:58:27
contradiction. You're forcing A contradiction
1:58:30
because Abraham didn't believe he lied to Pharaoh.
1:58:32
He didn't believe that God would protect them to keep the promise
1:58:35
through. And he didn't believe he would
1:58:37
have a son there. That's why he took Hagar.
1:58:39
So he didn't have that type of, of undying commitment to the
1:58:43
promise. But however, he did have it in
1:58:45
terms of a long ongoing commitment and supplication to
1:58:49
God. So his stumbling of it or his
1:58:52
stumbling of his actions, I guess you would say in that
1:58:55
regard over the commitment to the promise is what's shown.
1:58:59
So clearly it's more than just that commitment to the promise.
1:59:02
What do you believe the promise is here?
1:59:05
And that's of course where I just read in, in Hebrews 11, and
1:59:08
this is what's referenced. It was by faith.
1:59:10
What did he do? Well, this is what he did.
1:59:12
So this showed the nature of the faith in his heart.
1:59:15
What was the nature of his faith in his heart to the be this
1:59:18
submission and this compliance to God.
1:59:21
But he didn't just always stick in the state of always believing
1:59:24
God clearly. And that's from the tax.
1:59:26
So you're forcing A contradiction by saying that he
1:59:29
in his way, he didn't, he was unwavering in terms of his
1:59:32
belief, specifically in the promise itself.
1:59:35
What it's clearly saying to me is he managed to push through.
1:59:39
He stayed diligent even in those moments.
1:59:41
What means what that means is that when he fell or he stumbled
1:59:44
or he had that type of issue, he didn't stay there.
1:59:47
He got right back up and moved back forward.
1:59:49
That's that idea of true fidelity, of that commitment,
1:59:52
that even in moments of error, there's that getting back up and
1:59:56
moving past it and repenting and not doing it again or learning
2:00:00
from it or progressing. That's that idea of sanctity to
2:00:02
that's what you're. Referencing, by the way, in #20
2:00:06
where it where it talks basically about sanctification
2:00:08
of that ongoing. He was persuaded not
2:00:11
instantaneously and immediately, but what he did have
2:00:14
instantaneously, immediately would justify which clearly
2:00:16
wasn't this absolute suspension of disbelief for the promise
2:00:20
because he made those errors. That's clearly not what
2:00:21
justified him because that's not what he had.
2:00:24
So what what he did have was that fidelity, that commitment,
2:00:27
that submission to God, that's what justified him.
2:00:30
And that's what him through his life to do those things that
2:00:33
he's recognized as the father of faith for.
2:00:36
So. And he had to promise those.
2:00:38
Things those falters of believing God's promise and the
2:00:41
only way he did that was with the thing that saved him, which
2:00:44
was that fidelity and commitment.
2:00:46
That's what's pushed and. Powered So clearly in the text,
2:00:48
there is a promise that he did believe in.
2:00:51
What is the promise that he did believe in?
2:00:54
Like what exactly is it speaking about here?
2:00:59
What he committed to God over the promise, not that he just
2:01:02
believed the. Promise, well, it's over the
2:01:05
promise if we just executed the text.
2:01:08
He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief, but was
2:01:11
strong in faith, giving glory to God and being fully persuaded
2:01:14
what he had promised he was able to perform.
2:01:16
So there's obviously one promise that he didn't stagger at.
2:01:20
Now if you want to go with OK, well no, there was promises that
2:01:24
he did stagger at and through Hagar etcetera.
2:01:27
Really the only promise. What would be?
2:01:29
What would be the promise? The.
2:01:30
Only promise, the only promise of consequence, and the only one
2:01:35
mentioned in that context of what he believed at the the
2:01:38
statement of him being justified was the context of his
2:01:41
descendants. Absolutely.
2:01:43
So the idea, even the idea alone, that you think that just
2:01:49
suspending God disbelief to the promise that he would have heirs
2:01:53
is somehow what made him righteous is comical to me.
2:01:57
I mean, it can be terrible, but you're not dealing with the
2:01:59
it's, it's clearly you're not really.
2:02:00
With the more than that and clearly The thing is the way
2:02:03
that you're interpreting the text, did his did his belief
2:02:06
falter or not when he when he took Hagar?
2:02:09
That doesn't mean that's also, but that's also not dealing with
2:02:13
the text. So the actual you could, you can
2:02:16
very well be correct on the statement.
2:02:17
That's all good and fine when it comes to this.
2:02:20
And therefore it was imputed to him a righteousness for
2:02:23
righteousness. How many times was he imputed
2:02:25
righteousness? Once.
2:02:28
Yeah, because he had that. Type of faith.
2:02:30
Commitment that would lead to that life, that push.
2:02:32
Through. No, you're, you're, you're.
2:02:33
You're putting that inside of the.
2:02:35
Text No, that's the exegesis that I just.
2:02:37
Explained. It's not though.
2:02:39
It is it is because he was justified by works in James 2.
2:02:44
And just no, his no, his faith was made.
2:02:47
His faith was made mature in James 2.
2:02:50
Here I want to show you something.
2:02:50
It actually says you can put you can put scriptures on your
2:02:53
screen, right? Oh it.
2:02:54
Literally said you want to go back and read it again.
2:02:57
Absolutely. But I want to show you
2:02:58
something. Yeah, I want to.
2:02:59
Do you mind if I ask you a question while you're getting
2:03:02
the scripture up on the screen? Yeah.
2:03:04
I just want to say this one quick thing.
2:03:06
What I'll ask you to do smoking is if you can put James 221 and
2:03:12
Romans 4/2 together on your screen.
2:03:15
Just those two verses. Go ahead, Sir.
2:03:19
OK, one thing before I ask you the question, Charlie, keep on
2:03:23
sitting out there letting smoke. You know you don't agree with
2:03:26
them and you don't agree with you got other guys in the room
2:03:28
once you bring your your tail end in here and correct these
2:03:33
youngsters do that. All right, so the second thing
2:03:37
is, is this Matt Dillahunty, he's a hardcore atheist, hates
2:03:42
everybody and definitely God. So he claims he was a preacher
2:03:47
at one point in time, that he accepted God and did all the
2:03:50
rituals and all this. Now, obviously he's an atheist.
2:03:55
Is he still saved and why or why not?
2:03:59
So if he actually trusted in Jesus Christ, and this is the,
2:04:06
this is what gets tossed around, that it's just we're just saying
2:04:10
anyone that just says Jesus Christ is saved.
2:04:12
No, absolutely not. So that's why I go back to a
2:04:16
person being fully persuaded and what God had promised if he was
2:04:19
ever fully persuaded on the true gospel of Jesus Christ, not a
2:04:22
workspace gospel, not half me, half Christ, then yeah, he's
2:04:27
saved. But more than likely most people
2:04:31
that I meet that have gone through that usually are within
2:04:36
some type of oddball doctrine that is teaching them works for
2:04:40
salvation. I'm not Charlie, I promise.
2:04:45
That's not what I'm doing at all.
2:04:46
I if you're getting that from it, I'm sorry.
2:04:48
I'm not actually doing that. Well, I was trying to taunt him
2:04:53
to come in and be a part of the conversation.
2:04:55
I don't think I've ever seen Charlie Michaels on live stream
2:04:58
to be honest. I promise, Charlie, that's not
2:05:00
the point I'm making. If you got that there's been
2:05:02
some confusion, that's definitely not I am.
2:05:04
I am talking about the commitment being the type of
2:05:07
commitment that includes the works because otherwise it's not
2:05:11
commitment at all. I bet.
2:05:12
I hope that's come come through. Smokey, would you would you able
2:05:16
to find those two verses? Yeah.
2:05:18
So your first one is James 2? Was it 20 or 21?
2:05:23
I believe it's James 221. Yeah.
2:05:26
Was not Abraham our father, justified by works?
2:05:28
We had offered Isaac his son upon the altar.
2:05:31
Yeah, and if you can literally show it on the screen with along
2:05:34
with Romans 4/2. Well, I have to pull that up.
2:05:38
Let me grab that. I don't know if I can get it on
2:05:41
the screen at the same time, but I'll try.
2:05:45
The gentleman that's into music, what is your name, Sir?
2:05:48
Who me? Yes, Sir.
2:05:50
My name is Brett Keane. Keane.
2:05:53
Thank you. I'm hardly the first names.
2:05:55
Pleasure to meet you, Brett. I don't know if you're able to
2:06:04
see this. I don't know if you're using a
2:06:05
phone. But I'm using a phone, yeah.
2:06:07
He does have the information up on the screen that you asked
2:06:10
for. As far as split screen, that's a
2:06:13
little difficult. I would suggest a Smokey in the
2:06:16
future to. Use.
2:06:17
Well, here's Roman score and I'll go to that and I'll just
2:06:22
cycle back. It's fine here.
2:06:24
OK, so in Romans, let's see, because I can see the screen a
2:06:28
little. Bit you said fortunately, right?
2:06:38
OK, so verse 2 I believe you got to scroll up.
2:06:55
See, and The thing is too, and I think we're Charlie's getting
2:06:58
frustrated is this idea he thinks I'm playing the game that
2:07:03
it's just a mental state and and I'm not like it's it.
2:07:07
And I get where he's going with that.
2:07:08
I'm I'm speaking a little bit of that language to be coherent to
2:07:12
the other side, but I promise it's not really where I'm going
2:07:15
with it. Charlie.
2:07:16
I understand the prepackaged component of the commitment into
2:07:20
it. OK, that's good.
2:07:22
No, he wants to come in. I'll.
2:07:23
You know, you're always more than welcome, Charlie.
2:07:25
You're welcome to come in. He's going to come explain it
2:07:27
to. Us so that's no hurry it up
2:07:28
Charlie time is. Money my my point with these two
2:07:31
scriptures, I would love to ask you if they're contradicting
2:07:35
each other. If you can, read Romans 4/2 and
2:07:37
James 221. 04242. All.
2:07:46
Right. 4/2. And you, you really, really got
2:07:49
to pay attention to the wording. Like, literally.
2:07:51
Everywhere. But dude, I already covered
2:07:52
this. Why don't you answer?
2:07:54
Why don't you answer my exegesis?
2:07:56
I'm not saying you didn't cover it.
2:07:57
What I'm saying. What I'm saying is you're the
2:07:59
way you covered it. You're saying that I'm making
2:08:02
contradictions. You would have.
2:08:05
To what I'm saying is that this is works of the law that he's.
2:08:08
Not I'm I'm just saying verse 2. That's all for Abraham was
2:08:12
justified by works. He has something to boast about,
2:08:14
but not before God. OK.
2:08:17
OK, so would you agree that Paul is saying he was not justified
2:08:21
by works? Of the law.
2:08:24
Correct. Sure.
2:08:28
Well, no, it can't be works of the law.
2:08:30
Yeah, it can't be works of the law.
2:08:31
I covered that. It's Romans 320.
2:08:33
That's the whole context of the works he's talking.
2:08:35
About Abraham, the law didn't come.
2:08:36
No, no for 400. Years after Abraham.
2:08:39
No, here's the problem. Because that you can't do that
2:08:41
because now you do names too. If I, if I make it, if this, if
2:08:47
this is truly as he prefaces in James in Romans 320, that this
2:08:52
is that this is works that the works of the laws we talk about
2:08:55
people are not justified by. If that's really what he's
2:08:58
talking about, then this reconciles fine.
2:09:00
Your interpretation force is a contradiction because you're
2:09:02
making it sound like it's works of anything anyone.
2:09:05
Absolutely not. Your view of James 2 has it.
2:09:07
That is why I wanted you. This is why I wanted you to put
2:09:10
both together. So here I just did.
2:09:12
In, in verse. In verse two it says for if
2:09:16
Abraham was justified meaning he wasn't if you go back to James
2:09:21
work. Of the.
2:09:22
Law. Yes, he for if he was.
2:09:23
Justified by one. You're on the point.
2:09:25
That's on. Just hang, hang, hang.
2:09:27
I know you guys don't like it. But this is you're on the point
2:09:30
that I'm not even arguing. This is works of the law.
2:09:33
All right, let's go back. To read it again.
2:09:35
You you just give just hear the point out for 30 seconds I
2:09:39
heard. Your point?
2:09:40
It doesn't matter. You don't know my point, Smokey.
2:09:42
You don't know my point. I do know your.
2:09:44
Point that this is by. Works and therefore it
2:09:47
contradicts. So it can't be works at.
2:09:48
All. Absolutely.
2:09:49
No, this is. That's not my point.
2:09:51
That's not my point. Listen, I don't know it.
2:09:53
I'm not sure why you're so hostile to read these two
2:09:56
verses. Because you're ignoring my
2:09:58
point. I'm not ignoring your point, I'm
2:10:01
just showing you the other point.
2:10:02
This is why you want these two passages together, right?
2:10:04
You want to say that Abraham was not justified by any works at
2:10:08
all. Not.
2:10:09
No. Absolutely not.
2:10:12
OK, well, what are you saying? This is and This is why it's
2:10:14
smoking. You got you got to hear me out,
2:10:16
buddy. I mean, I listen, I I I OK,
2:10:18
dude, come on. Can you get?
2:10:19
To the point, man, just can you get it out like can I?
2:10:22
Yeah. If you stop, if you stop cutting
2:10:24
everybody off, yeah, that'd be great.
2:10:26
For if Abraham was justified by works, let's write, let's stay
2:10:30
right there. Let's not even get to the other
2:10:31
side of the passage. For if Abraham was justified by
2:10:34
works, if you was to go to James 221 right now and James is going
2:10:40
to say was not Abraham our forefather, justified by works?
2:10:45
This is not a contradiction. It would if he was to put those
2:10:48
next to each other. It sounds like James and Paul.
2:10:51
One is saying he was and the other is saying he wasn't.
2:10:55
Now I understand that that might be confusing to you, but you
2:10:59
need to understand what's happening.
2:11:01
This justification is absolutely not about salvation.
2:11:06
This when it says and see how by works.
2:11:10
He was made complete. Complete does not mean
2:11:13
salvation. This is talking about maturity.
2:11:17
This is not talking about Abraham saved and unsaved.
2:11:23
That's my point. So I don't I'm sorry, I'm sorry
2:11:37
I'm. Lost.
2:11:38
You're saying you're saying that the the passage is not saying
2:11:43
what it says. I'm sorry, I don't.
2:11:45
I'm. No, no, I explained the passage
2:11:47
clearly. I don't get it.
2:11:49
You're saying he wasn't justified by works?
2:11:51
He was justified by works. What is the justification there?
2:11:55
Is that justification salvation? No, we need to understand that.
2:11:59
That's talking about maturity, which the entire book of James
2:12:03
is talking about. He's not taught.
2:12:05
He's not making a salvation point.
2:12:08
As you can see. This is why I wanted to point
2:12:10
out those two verses. And for anyone listening, if you
2:12:13
was to put James 221 and Romans 4/2 next to each other, it seems
2:12:19
like Paul and James are having a fight.
2:12:22
They're not. The key to understanding the
2:12:25
book of James is that this is Speaking of a complete mature
2:12:31
faith, not an immature faith. For if Abraham was justified by
2:12:37
works, he had something to boast about, but not before God.
2:12:41
The reason it says not before God is because of Titus 38.
2:12:46
Our good works are not comparable to God.
2:12:49
These are good things in front of men.
2:12:51
Be careful to maintain good works.
2:12:53
These things are good and profitable unto man.
2:12:57
You're also profitable to God because faith.
2:13:00
Faithful works are valuable to God, and if you have a faithful
2:13:03
work, then that's. OK, so you're just going against
2:13:05
scripture because it says they're not.
2:13:07
It says your good works are good and profitable unto man.
2:13:11
Your good deeds are filthy rags in front of God, as the Bible
2:13:14
tells. Us so God doesn't value faithful
2:13:16
works. They're not profitable to him.
2:13:20
They're profitable. Well, if he doesn't have.
2:13:23
Faithful. Works before and then he has
2:13:25
faithful works after. Is that not profitable?
2:13:28
Not to God, to man, as the Bible clearly states.
2:13:31
And Titus? 3/8 so he so he values.
2:13:34
He values faithful works and when he doesn't have them and
2:13:38
then gets them, that's not profitable to him.
2:13:41
No, you're just not understanding.
2:13:43
So again, that's Titus, Titus 38.
2:13:45
Now listen, you're, you're, you're arguing.
2:13:47
You're arguing with the Bible. Verse This is what.
2:13:49
I deal with in Free Grace guys. That's what I deal with.
2:13:51
Hi Charlie, how you doing? Buddy, this would be you not
2:13:54
dealing with scripture. I have dealt with scripture.
2:13:57
But you, you didn't, Titus 38 clearly says it's.
2:14:01
Possible. Oh, Titus 38.
2:14:04
I've been just at the right time so that people can rest the
2:14:07
Scripture right in front of me. Yeah.
2:14:09
You know that nothing we do is profitable God at all.
2:14:11
There's no point to any of. That, by the way, if you don't
2:14:14
mind Smokey, I just showed up. I didn't even listen to what's
2:14:17
going on. But I hear Titus 38 being
2:14:18
mentioned. So I challenge any of you that
2:14:23
rest Titus 38 out of context with that letter that that Paul
2:14:27
wrote to Titus to tell him to go straighten out the island of
2:14:30
Crete. You don't know what you're
2:14:31
talking about in Titus 3/8 and I can prove it.
2:14:34
And I challenge anyone to a debate on Titus 3/8 that thinks
2:14:38
they can prove me wrong. And I'll, I'll roast you to the
2:14:41
core all. Right.
2:14:42
Good, good talk. OK, that's great.
2:14:46
And I and I agree. Yes, Dave, Will and hey.
2:14:48
Yeah, I'm sure, Charlie. I wanted, I wanted to let you
2:14:52
give your take on it. Maybe you had a clarification or
2:14:55
something you thought I wasn't saying precisely enough.
2:14:58
Go ahead. Yeah, I'd like to ask a couple
2:15:02
of questions of this cowardly sock puppet who calls himself
2:15:07
Chris Free Grace. Why don't you speak in tongues
2:15:09
for us, Charlie? It's salvation, as you know.
2:15:12
Jerk off of the front rank. Tell us exactly why we should
2:15:16
give a flying what you have to say about anything.
2:15:20
You know the the salvation do you hold to you have zippity Doo
2:15:25
dah for credentials. Zippity Doo dah cowardly sock
2:15:29
puppet being your Pentecost. Who in blazes ordained you?
2:15:34
Jack. Smack.
2:15:37
Not Jack. Smack, who graduated you?
2:15:41
I'm just. A Bible reader, Charlie, but I
2:15:43
know you're. Very well.
2:15:46
And I know that you have to hold to a person.
2:15:48
You don't have to what you're talking about.
2:15:51
You couldn't. Listen, you don't.
2:15:53
I do and I've. Challenged you to could you 7.
2:15:55
Times and you've never. Took Charlie, could you answer
2:15:59
Could you answer the challenge he has for he doesn't like my
2:16:02
answer. Could could you answer the
2:16:04
challenge he has in comparison of Romans 4/2 and James?
2:16:09
First again, before we even before we even go there.
2:16:12
Why should we think this clown has a clue what he is talking
2:16:17
about? Answer it Charlie, what clue do
2:16:20
you possibly have? Who the hell trained you
2:16:22
Charlie? The Bible and the Holy Spirit?
2:16:26
But no, you're a man. How would you sock puppet?
2:16:28
You're, you're you. Answer the question.
2:16:30
You're a jerk off on YouTube hiding behind a sock.
2:16:33
Puppet. You don't know nothing.
2:16:34
About anything for. Months.
2:16:37
Does a person have to speak in tongues to be saved?
2:16:42
You have. You.
2:16:44
Have any question? Does a person have to speak in
2:16:47
tongues to be saved? All right, hold on, let.
2:16:50
No, no, no. Let's not go down.
2:16:52
OK, We'll do what? I'll tell you what.
2:16:53
Let's answer that question. That's fine.
2:16:55
We'll put that on the table. That can be answered.
2:16:57
But let's, let's, let's, let's do this first.
2:17:00
I want to do this first, please. Let's, let's get through this.
2:17:03
I, I'd, I'd like to if we could, Charlie, please, if you could
2:17:07
give him an answer to this that you think is, is reasonable from
2:17:12
your view. He doesn't like my answer, but
2:17:15
maybe you have some other clarification that you might be
2:17:18
able to give and maybe he'd he'd be interested.
2:17:20
In that and the and the question is.
2:17:24
OK. The question is go ahead Chris,
2:17:28
why don't you regale him with the question?
2:17:30
I I have the passages on the screen, go ahead.
2:17:32
Thank you, Sir. Mr. Michaels, through the Holy
2:17:37
Spirit, Can you actually show me why James 221 and Romans 4/2
2:17:44
seem like they're contradicting itself?
2:17:46
Because James 221 says was not Abraham our father?
2:17:51
Excuse me, Justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on
2:17:56
the altar, meaning he was justified by works.
2:17:59
But Paul in Romans, in Romans 4/2 says for if Abraham was
2:18:05
justified by works, he had word for the glory, but not before
2:18:08
God. Paul is saying he was not
2:18:11
justified by works when James 2/21 was saying he is.
2:18:15
Can you show me the proper exegete of that?
2:18:19
Yeah. What does it say in Romans 328?
2:18:22
That's not an exegete. That's going to another
2:18:24
scripture now. Being a man.
2:18:26
Filled with the Holy Spirit. Romans. 328 Moronic sock puppet.
2:18:34
What does it say in Romans 3? I'll wait for you to exegete
2:18:38
those scriptures. Exegete.
2:18:40
What's that mean? Well, but that.
2:18:41
But that's the thing, Chris to exegete, he's got to go to
2:18:44
another passage. OK, let's go.
2:18:45
Romans 328 Let's go. OK, all right, Romans 328, let
2:18:50
me pull it up here. All right, Romans 328 says.
2:18:57
For we hold that one is justified by faith, apart from
2:19:01
works of the law. Sorry Charlie, that would
2:19:05
absolutely destroy your James 221 argument, so you better try
2:19:09
another one. So what that is saying that
2:19:12
we're not justified by the law, What James 221 said is that was
2:19:17
not Abraham, our forefather, justified by works when he
2:19:20
sacrificed his son Isaac on the altar.
2:19:23
You You debated yourself and lost.
2:19:27
No one need for what? We.
2:19:29
Interpret the book of Romans. The letter of Romans was quite
2:19:33
understandable without the letter of James.
2:19:37
That's the one thing you need to understand.
2:19:41
The Book of. Romans interprets itself in
2:19:43
3/28, he says. Works of the law.
2:19:47
In fact, throughout all of Romans 3, he's talking about
2:19:50
works of the law, the Law of Moses, the Torah.
2:19:55
OK, he's not talking about helping little old ladies across
2:19:58
the street. He's not talking.
2:19:59
About tithing, he's not talking about singing in the choir.
2:20:03
OK, works. Is not a synonym for the.
2:20:06
Golden rule you Jack off. Works.
2:20:10
It's not Smokey walleye. It's not.
2:20:17
Smokey walleye, I think you've been extremely quiet.
2:20:19
Hold on a second. Chris, I even like.
2:20:21
The may I share a verse you've been going over and over, Chris?
2:20:25
Relax there guy, Relax I'm. I'm getting I'm.
2:20:29
Getting down there, Chris. Hey, you mind if I do a verse or
2:20:33
Smokey? Sure, Just remind me, we got a
2:20:39
we have a full house. Here we go with the verse.
2:20:41
Here we go. Can I get this done?
2:20:43
I read really fast. You'll you'll be able to handle
2:20:45
it. Trust me.
2:20:47
This is Revelation 2012 and I saw the dead, small and great
2:20:50
stand before God and the books were opened and another book was
2:20:53
opened, which is the book of life and the dead were judged
2:20:56
out of those things which were written in the books according
2:20:58
to their works. So we have too many.
2:21:01
Here to have a promise mission. We can have a conversation, just
2:21:06
got to give people a chance. Oh, he ran off Too bad.
2:21:09
Oh, did Chris run? Oh no, he didn't.
2:21:13
Not Chris. The CC's got a bad temper.
2:21:16
Takes about 5 minutes to explode.
2:21:18
So Smokey, what do you think of that verse?
2:21:20
What does that mean? Well, I can give you 2
2:21:24
interpret. I give my interpretation that
2:21:26
everyone's going to be judged based upon what they've done,
2:21:28
both good and bad. In fact, there's another
2:21:30
passage, I think it's in the Corinthians.
2:21:32
I forgot. Is.
2:21:35
That you sorry Dave was distracting me with the letters
2:21:40
up there. You every person will show up
2:21:45
before the judgement seat of Christ to be judged and
2:21:47
receiving the body what they've done both good and bad.
2:21:49
I forget which I think it's Thessalonians.
2:21:51
I forget. Exactly and Corinthians.
2:21:54
All right, OK, thank you. So we have that expectation at
2:21:59
the end and that's repeated in Revelation.
2:22:00
Now for me, there's going to be, as I understand, there's two
2:22:05
kind of, there's two seats of judgement.
2:22:07
You have the seat of judgement, which is going to be for all
2:22:10
those condemned and damned hell, which is that is basically just
2:22:13
their judgement for that moment. And then there's a type of
2:22:15
judgement that is for the same believer.
2:22:17
That is a judgement based upon what they've done, you know, in
2:22:20
their life, good and bad. And we are going to receive
2:22:23
basically punishment and or, you know, I guess reward, you know,
2:22:27
based upon, you know, basically what we've chosen to do with our
2:22:29
lives. And we'll receive that, as it
2:22:31
says in Corinthians, in our body, whatever we've done, both
2:22:34
good and bad. I think this has to do with
2:22:36
maybe the form and function of our essence in being in our
2:22:40
final judgment. You know, probably some people
2:22:43
will have more glory than others.
2:22:46
I guess for a letter, better way to put it, you know, higher
2:22:48
elevation, higher position, you know, trusted with more in terms
2:22:52
of leadership or role. Just talk about how you know,
2:22:55
the the the greatest in the Kingdom of heaven is usually is
2:22:57
the least or the lowest, you know, the most humble.
2:23:00
And that's a good way to have things run.
2:23:02
You know, the most humble people would probably generally be the
2:23:04
best leaders. So and that's kind of the
2:23:07
structure of heaven. So the least are rewarded with
2:23:10
the best and that type of thing. So that's what it means to me.
2:23:15
Anyway, I would like to appreciate it.
2:23:18
Charlie to stick around and just answer that, But yeah, he
2:23:21
doesn't have a lot of you know what's.
2:23:22
Weird internally here. When I put this on the screen,
2:23:26
you can't read it, it's backwards.
2:23:29
But when you look at it on YouTube I think it's normal.
2:23:33
Isn't that weird? I think it's a, it's a setting
2:23:37
for mirrored. Yeah, I don't, I don't know.
2:23:38
I think it's a mirrored setting or something like.
2:23:40
Mirrors. I can't see it.
2:23:43
There's a setting in there whether or not you can mirror.
2:23:46
Doesn't Psalms 55 say God hates workers of iniquity, those who
2:23:51
are lawless transgressors and all that?
2:23:55
Did he Chris? Did he change his mind?
2:23:58
No, no, absolutely not. Very good, very good.
2:24:01
Sir. Oh, OK, I see.
2:24:03
That. So also in the Old Testament you
2:24:08
see that an Ecclesiastes 717 it says do not live an overly
2:24:13
wicked life. Why should you die before your
2:24:15
time? Don't.
2:24:17
Don't use the cleanest point. Don't.
2:24:20
Hold on. Wait a minute.
2:24:20
Stop. No, I'm not going to let you go.
2:24:24
Yeah, buddy, one thing. Yeah.
2:24:26
Well, here's the thing. I'm going to go ahead and stop
2:24:28
an absurd argument. On its face.
2:24:31
Right off the bat, anyone that uses, here's the thing buddy,
2:24:37
you don't want to do that. You don't want to try and tell
2:24:39
me that you're going to use Ecclesiastes a a book written to
2:24:42
secularists, of physicalists and try and glean spiritual truths
2:24:47
out of it. Unless you also want to have
2:24:48
that soul sleep conversation, because that's where the soul
2:24:51
sleep comes from, because people try to take some sort of deeper
2:24:55
spiritual context out of a surface level book written to
2:24:57
physicalists, you know, and and that's just, if you're going to
2:25:02
go that direction, I'm going to dismiss that right off the bat.
2:25:04
That's that. I mean, if you're going to go to
2:25:06
Eccles, really clear. Yeah.
2:25:08
If you're going to go to Ecclesiastes to support
2:25:12
something spiritually salvific in consideration, that's
2:25:14
foolish. It's clearly, I mean, it says
2:25:17
who said it was. Spiritually.
2:25:18
Who said it was spiritually salvific?
2:25:21
Did the dead know nothing? Who said it was spiritually
2:25:23
salvific? I said a spiritual component to
2:25:27
it as a spiritual statement or a.
2:25:30
Spiritual. Not one time spiritual about it.
2:25:33
Not one time that I say it was spiritual.
2:25:36
OK, we are talking salvation. OK, so when I when when he
2:25:41
brought up the the last point he made.
2:25:45
My point is that there's a person, Revelation 20, about
2:25:52
dead works and things of that. That's spiritual, yes.
2:25:54
But then we got and then he brought up the book of Psalms, I
2:25:57
believe. Yeah, I brought up Psalms 55 and
2:26:02
I also what? Does Psalms 55.
2:26:04
Say verse of Corinthians. It says God hates all workers of
2:26:07
iniquity. And what is iniquity?
2:26:09
It's transgression against the law which leads to sin.
2:26:12
All is Sinner yadda yadda yadda. Yeah.
2:26:14
So are we, are we talking about sin right now being that you
2:26:17
brought up that verse? Hey Chris, free grades.
2:26:21
Hey Chris, free grades. Hey Chris, free grades.
2:26:28
Silver trying to talk to you Hey Chris, free grades.
2:26:32
I'm going to talk right over to this guy if you keep.
2:26:34
Talking. I will talk all over you.
2:26:36
I'll talk for fucking 4 hours right over you and I'll sit here
2:26:39
at auctioneer if I have to. Five 10/15/2020 5:00 but I'm on
2:26:43
30. We get 27 a half 3032.
2:26:45
I'll just keep going, but I want you to.
2:26:47
I have a question for you directly, Chris, Free Grace, and
2:26:50
I'm going to get an answer from you for it, or I'll just
2:26:53
interrupt them tonight. You'll have to throw me out
2:26:57
because you're going to piss me off so much.
2:26:58
I'm just going to fuck your brains out right here in the
2:27:01
front of everybody. You.
2:27:02
Are. Acting incredible Christian you
2:27:05
you with your big mouth, you are an incredible.
2:27:08
Christian, Sir, you. Idiot fucker, I'm going to tell
2:27:10
you right now, fuck you coming. Out here, God damn.
2:27:13
Beautiful shit over here. Thank.
2:27:15
You 2539 five get 35 number. Time for a biblical
2:27:19
conversation. Brought some butter but she said
2:27:20
this butter is better if I put it in my batter to make my
2:27:22
batter better. So she bought a bit of better
2:27:24
butter, put it better better better better better better.
2:27:26
So literally better butter. Tommy, stick your teeth and tied
2:27:30
up the top 2 tall trees and I'll just tell you you're banner what
2:27:34
2025 you want. You want to extra G Titus 3 or
2:27:37
you want me to just sit here and auction all night?
2:27:39
You have literally this is kind of your MO, dude.
2:27:42
It's kind of sad and I. Don't give a fuck what my MO
2:27:44
does, it doesn't fucking matter, you're an asshole.
2:27:47
I mean at. The end you're talking.
2:27:48
About motherfucker and you're a piece of.
2:27:52
Shit at them. You you sell it, you sell it.
2:27:54
At them hurry and we admit you steal from work for salvation
2:28:00
but this is how you speak I'm going to get you you act like an
2:28:08
immature child or everybody to talk to I'm.
2:28:10
Just going to sit here and auction your off.
2:28:12
You can auction your. Off 20 five, no difference for
2:28:25
me 75 so 5575 I'm going to get 60 now. 62 and a half 626566 7
2:28:31
Albert and 1/4 and 1/2 Huh looks like.
2:28:35
I said. I'll just keep going.
2:28:37
I'm until you until you actually, we're going to sit
2:28:41
here until the fucking clock goes to sit in the.
2:28:44
Morning. Listen, the more you cuss, the
2:28:47
more you cuss and manifest. I.
2:28:49
Don't. I don't cry God damn fuck about.
2:28:53
It. I know you don't, buddy.
2:28:55
I really don't. I I heard you.
2:28:59
I heard you. Then one more time for me or I'm
2:29:03
I've been broke until everybody goes to sleep.
2:29:09
Or you could throw me the fuck out.
2:29:12
That's not going. To happen right here, right?
2:29:13
Now, I would never let you up, let alone throw you out.
2:29:15
That's not my room. Never do exergy.
2:29:18
Fighter create. It kind of sounds like you do.
2:29:21
XAG Titus 38, asshole. I don't think you're worthy of
2:29:25
speaking. You're not worthy.
2:29:26
You're to get up, get up in any church across this country which
2:29:30
you're big mouth about Titus 38. They laugh you out of the
2:29:33
fucking place. You're still deserve.
2:29:35
You didn't even know the context, can't even read the
2:29:39
verb. You don't understand.
2:29:40
It. And all you're talking about,
2:29:42
your big mouth would be babbling.
2:29:45
And you're not even against me because I'm going to sit here
2:29:47
and just sit here and auctioneer.
2:29:49
All right, next item here, how many I'm going to get 2525 and a
2:29:52
quarter now I? Have There's a lot of love,
2:29:54
baby, a lot of love. I'm a 26th quarter now having to
2:29:57
get 27/7. How you been today in this?
2:30:00
335 I'm a 35, seven and a half, second-half and a half 45595.
2:30:06
I will tell you this buddy. You're having to get 7 1/2.
2:30:09
Well, I may not. I'm not 2 1/2.
2:30:11
You're going to have to speak to you.
2:30:13
I think. I think you're very cordial.
2:30:16
I'd like to have another conversation.
2:30:18
With you 95 and 100. 100 dollars $500.
2:30:21
Five Me. Stop me.
2:30:22
Mr. Chris. It was a.
2:30:24
Pleasure talking to both of you. All right, enough, enough,
2:30:26
enough. Christ on my Jesus.
2:30:29
Exegete the goddamn Titus 38 dumb fuck all.
2:30:33
Right, let's let's, let's, let's get on track, please.
2:30:38
Fuck sakes. OK, I'm a rock here.
2:30:41
I can go for hours. Dave, trust me, I know you can.
2:30:47
Gentlemen, it was a pleasure. I appreciate the time.
2:30:50
Would you would you like to execute Titus 3/8 for?
2:30:53
Smokey, Smokey, and I mean this with with respect and
2:30:57
compassion. Dude, I you've truly been a
2:30:59
gentleman. Even when we got a little
2:31:00
heated. I appreciate the heated.
2:31:03
I think that's. My ass and smokies.
2:31:06
And I just. Shit it out your mouth some
2:31:08
more, you big mouth. You're shit.
2:31:11
At the end of the day, you're. So really thick.
2:31:14
At the end of the day bro, this is God's word and if people are.
2:31:17
Hearing what's coming out of his.
2:31:19
Mouth and I'm supposed. To.
2:31:22
It's. Disgusting people, by your own
2:31:24
admission, hold. On please one second.
2:31:26
He's an extortion man. I didn't get the chance to
2:31:30
present this during the debate and I wouldn't have because it
2:31:33
wasn't really a free grace debate.
2:31:35
But you know, I have another meta argument that I'd like to
2:31:38
throw at you too. And I, I know you, you present
2:31:40
this idea that you really care about this message and this
2:31:43
gospel because this is the gospel that saves as if to say
2:31:48
you indeed no other gospel can save.
2:31:50
And that seems to be the position that all of you tend to
2:31:52
hold. Here's here's the problem.
2:31:54
Here's the problem. If you guys really cared about
2:31:57
saving souls, here's what I think you would do.
2:32:01
You would tell people believe Free Grace for a nanosecond and
2:32:05
then go believe conditionalism and be covered by both camps.
2:32:08
See, because conditionalism says you can't believe the other and
2:32:11
be saved. Free Grace says you can believe
2:32:13
both and be saved. You can believe one or the other
2:32:15
and be saved. You can start with one and then
2:32:16
go to the other. Doesn't matter because you're
2:32:17
never going to lose your salvation.
2:32:19
So I really truthfully, if I think Free Grace was honest
2:32:23
about it, wanting to save as many souls as possible, that's
2:32:26
how it would teach it is go and hold on to this, believe this
2:32:30
for a nanosecond that all your sins, past, present or future
2:32:32
are covered. There's never any other way you
2:32:34
possibly lose your salvation. You have absolute confidence and
2:32:36
austerity. And now go over to
2:32:38
conditionalism and hold to their doctrine because they believe
2:32:42
you have to hold that doctrine to be saved as well.
2:32:44
Free Grace says you can believe either and be saved.
2:32:46
So start with free Grace, believe that, and now go to
2:32:49
conditionalism. That's what I think.
2:32:51
That's what I would think, you guys.
2:32:53
Would teach. If you cared about really,
2:32:55
honestly people's souls and making absolutely certain they
2:32:58
were saved, unless you want to, you know, engage in a bad
2:33:01
argument of Cartesian certainty that you can't possibly be
2:33:04
wrong. I don't think any of you are
2:33:05
that arrogant. I mean, maybe some of you are, I
2:33:07
don't know, but generally most reasonable people aren't that
2:33:09
arrogant. And if you're not that arrogant,
2:33:11
then you would believe even if there was a 1% chance, less than
2:33:14
one percent .001% chance that you were wrong, you should still
2:33:18
tell people to split the difference and cover that gap
2:33:20
100. So when it comes to, I mean,
2:33:23
that's actually a logical, it sounds crazy, but it's actually
2:33:26
a logical argument in a weird way.
2:33:29
But no, what we're actually looking to do is to make mature
2:33:33
believers, to make believers that get out of sin and make
2:33:36
believers that don't just live a life of absolute uncertainty.
2:33:41
I. Don't I don't.
2:33:45
I don't see that. I don't see that in free
2:33:48
gracers. The people that have been the
2:33:49
worst to me on the Internet have been free gracers, by the way,
2:33:53
the people that have been the. Most.
2:33:54
At the end of the day, it's the most.
2:33:56
Evil. The most lying, the most
2:33:58
deviant, the most willing to cross every single moral
2:34:01
boundary possible. It's all been free gracers.
2:34:03
I mean. Or can or monarchists.
2:34:05
Really. I would throw CJ Cox into that
2:34:07
mix too. He's a real deviant.
2:34:08
To be fair, I just I just got auctioneered and I think he
2:34:11
called me a jerk off like 7 times.
2:34:12
It's kind of weird, the sure. The most?
2:34:16
People I've ever met in my life, life where people that call
2:34:18
themselves Christians and say that they're doing God's work
2:34:22
when they're some of the most horrible people I've ever met in
2:34:24
my. Life.
2:34:24
Fuck you, idiot. There you go.
2:34:26
Well, actually, well, actually in terms of in terms of insults,
2:34:30
that's not necessarily a sin or necessarily wrong.
2:34:33
There's lots of insults in Scripture.
2:34:35
Jesus and Christ himself did a few of them, so I wouldn't go
2:34:39
down that road necessarily making that a sign of someone's
2:34:42
lack of sanctification or salvation, which you can't judge
2:34:45
anyway because you're a free grace or nothing.
2:34:46
We do salvation anyway. In fact, I did believe free
2:34:50
grace for a little bit. Doesn't stop all you guys from
2:34:52
calling me an unsaved devil. I've never called you unsaved.
2:34:56
Maybe. You have.
2:34:57
I'm not. Yeah, I, I, I'm sorry, I don't
2:34:59
mean to be overly inclusive, but I'm saying in general, a lot of
2:35:02
the free gracers have have said that they can't.
2:35:04
Maybe there's no way to judge. Maybe, maybe so, but well, you
2:35:07
know what you say that you say you believe free.
2:35:08
What did you believe about free grace?
2:35:10
Tell me your experience with Free Grace.
2:35:12
Well, I lived it. I believe that no matter what I
2:35:14
did, no matter how I chose to believe or live my life, I was
2:35:18
locked in because I was raised in the church.
2:35:20
I believe since I was youth and, and there was nothing I could do
2:35:23
to ever lose my salvation, I belong to God and no one could
2:35:25
ever snatch me out of his hand. I believe that.
2:35:28
And I lived like it. And then I and I repented.
2:35:33
Well, actually, no, that's not what happened.
2:35:35
I I lived that life for a bit and then I went into atheism and
2:35:38
then I repented and then I came back.
2:35:41
Christian. And you know what?
2:35:43
I heard your view on Hebrews 6. Maybe we'll get to that another
2:35:46
night. Neither can I do it.
2:35:54
It's it's kind of wasteless at this point.
2:35:57
Accent your bullshit, that's all.
2:35:58
Just a little bit, just to give it a little flavor.
2:36:00
It's like that supper club with the cigar haze in the back.
2:36:03
You're. You're amazing.
2:36:05
Sure, Truly, truly, Dave, the way you toe the line and
2:36:10
pretending to talk about God and acting the way you no.
2:36:13
Wonder what we used to have before?
2:36:14
God, it's to be a nice state of what realistically you should
2:36:16
be. Yeah, yourself, a load of
2:36:18
fucking devils. You know what?
2:36:20
You need to be gang fucked by those devils that are in you.
2:36:22
They're gang fucking you right now.
2:36:24
Nice buddy. Oh boy.
2:36:27
I'll, I'll say this guys, you should literally at the end of
2:36:35
the day, having people up here to talk like that and trying to
2:36:39
talk about it's. Oh, really?
2:36:41
It does. Smokey's disgusted.
2:36:43
He really is. You know, you're right.
2:36:45
You're you're right, Christopher.
2:36:46
You know, Smokey should be a little bit more simple.
2:36:49
Thank you. My environment's always been
2:36:52
this since I started Open room. People come in and say what they
2:36:56
want. This is why it's so hard to
2:36:57
troll me. Dave's a good friend.
2:36:59
Dave supported me and stuck behind me at times.
2:37:01
It would have been really easy to throw me under the bus, you
2:37:03
know? Dave's showing more Christian
2:37:06
virtue and ethics, and I've seen in most of this community, and I
2:37:09
wouldn't judge him too harshly just because he uses words you
2:37:11
don't like, you know? It's it's not about it has
2:37:15
nothing to do with me on a personal level.
2:37:16
Like I I've been called the devil 10,000 times this year.
2:37:18
It makes nothing to. Me, me too.
2:37:20
When it when it, when it comes to somebody like, oh, you're a
2:37:22
devil, you're a Dick. I mean that that I promise you
2:37:25
my skin is. You know, the irony is, you
2:37:27
know, the real irony is I'm called a devil for nothing other
2:37:30
than saying I believe you're supposed to obey God.
2:37:33
I I've been called the devil by saying that, John.
2:37:36
That's encouraging. People to to believe God and to
2:37:39
and to follow God, and to serve God and to and to obey God.
2:37:43
Imagine that person being called the devil.
2:37:46
Yeah, I don't put a lot of weight in it.
2:37:48
I, I will say this, Mark, yeah, I think you're biblically
2:37:50
educated enough to to definitely.
2:37:53
I don't know how many peoples in your room or how many's
2:37:54
watching, but I think you're biblically educated enough to
2:37:58
know that while we're, even though we're disagreeing on
2:38:02
scripture and going back and forth, having such language is
2:38:07
not edifying to the body of Christ at all.
2:38:09
And like, what is it? What if there's some little old
2:38:11
lady in here that has no idea about the gospel?
2:38:13
What did she just learn? That Chris is a Dick.
2:38:16
For them anyway, I deal with much deeper situations than
2:38:20
that. This is not a place for them
2:38:21
anyway. It would be useless on them for
2:38:23
the most part unless they had a real definitive thirst to get
2:38:26
the actual core of what Christian morality really is.
2:38:29
Well, I mean, you just did 30. Minutes I kind of, I kind of
2:38:32
actually generally find that free gracers really are morally
2:38:36
like they don't even know what morals they should follow if
2:38:39
they were supposed to. Like it's almost like, like when
2:38:42
it comes down to it, like if you ask generally, like like a lot
2:38:44
of free gracers or people with a very loose grasp on Bible, like
2:38:47
what is objective morality, they'll point to like the
2:38:50
Decalogue. I mean, that's just, that's just
2:38:53
stupidity, you know, that's just ignorance.
2:38:55
That's just not understanding what the virtue vice ethic of
2:38:58
Christianity actually is in the completeness of Scripture.
2:39:01
That's someone who's still on the milk.
2:39:03
You know, I don't know what the hell they're talking about.
2:39:06
And, and sadly, I find free gracers to do that a lot, which
2:39:08
is why I find them so morally bankrupt all the time because
2:39:11
they really don't understand. They think, you know, the
2:39:14
morality that basically the morality #1 is optional and #2
2:39:17
it's in housed in a set of archaic, no longer functional
2:39:21
rules and guidelines. So really they don't actually
2:39:24
have any functional grounding of what Christian objective
2:39:26
morality actually ever is. And that's why it like, like,
2:39:29
see like things like this, like things are like, hey, language,
2:39:32
you know, certain words. I hear stuff like that.
2:39:35
That's a sign to me of of spiritual immaturity, if that's
2:39:39
where your build goes with stuff like that.
2:39:41
And and that would be the reverse to me.
2:39:43
So like for instance, a room of some guy doing whatever Dave was
2:39:47
just doing and then people trying to breakdown biblical
2:39:50
scripture that is actually words inspired by God.
2:39:53
And the holy he's calling you out.
2:39:55
Give me, give me one second. Let me finish.
2:39:57
Give me one more quick second. Oh.
2:39:58
Let me finish, Let me finish. Let me.
2:40:00
Finish and then to them to look at it and go like, Oh yeah, you
2:40:03
know we're we're breaking down scripture and let's exegete this
2:40:05
passage that is the literal consistency of spiritual
2:40:10
immaturity if spiritualism at all.
2:40:13
What it really sounds like is a bunch of guys just.
2:40:16
Listen. To your, I don't know about
2:40:17
that. Yeah, no, I don't.
2:40:21
That's not a that's not a fair, that's not a fair critique.
2:40:24
And the apostles were very harsh with people at certain times.
2:40:27
They calling them out in perversions or attempting to
2:40:29
take people away from the faith. And so I don't think you can
2:40:31
draw that correlation unless you want to say their ministries
2:40:34
were sinful. And this is again, back to my
2:40:36
point again, and this is back to what I see, and this is an
2:40:39
offense to you, Chris, but I find that you guys really are
2:40:42
clueless about what Christian morality actually even is all.
2:40:45
So when you get triggered by stuff like that, you know
2:40:48
someone, you're focusing on things that aren't actually a
2:40:50
moral problem. There are things that could be
2:40:53
said about a moral problem, like, for instance, like Dave
2:40:56
not wanting to let you talk was more of an issue than whatever
2:40:58
words he said. You know, if he didn't want to
2:41:01
let you talk, if he didn't want you to actually execute the
2:41:04
verse, I'd actually wouldn't mind you executing the verse.
2:41:07
I, I came in here specifically even to ask.
2:41:09
That's the first thing I said when I came back is are you
2:41:11
willing to do that for you? But you don't want to.
2:41:14
And the only justification you gave was the words he said.
2:41:17
Now, if it was along the lines of, oh, well, no, I can't.
2:41:21
He won't let me speak. I'm not going to be able to get
2:41:22
out. OK, That's something we can deal
2:41:24
with. That's something of a, of a
2:41:25
critical critique. That's fair, but when you're
2:41:28
making this moral unction over certain words, that's showing me
2:41:32
spiritual immaturity or even approach is showing me
2:41:34
spiritual. Immaturity now what is your
2:41:36
opinion on why for instance, what is your opinion on why you
2:41:40
think I think this would be an immature room like do you think
2:41:44
that him saying those words to me specifically is why I.
2:41:47
Think I think he came in well, it's the words to me are
2:41:50
irrelevant because it's just like saying whether I say fuck
2:41:54
or swive. Swive being the progenitor word
2:41:57
of the word fuck, that was the originator of it.
2:42:00
It's not a word that we use anymore.
2:42:01
It's not a word you ever even hear anymore.
2:42:03
I think it's even Latin. So it comes from like even like
2:42:05
a dead language, like it's an old progenitor.
2:42:07
But if I use the word, the word has the same function and
2:42:11
meaning, but you wouldn't be offended by it.
2:42:13
That shows me your morality is false because you're not
2:42:15
actually having an issue with the form and function and
2:42:18
substance of it. It's simply a surface cultural
2:42:21
level, colloquial moral stigma that you've adopted into your
2:42:25
psyche and then transplanted on the scripture.
2:42:28
That's why I call it immaturity, spiritual immaturity to view
2:42:32
things and to judge morality way.
2:42:34
This is my critique with free gracers is being able to and
2:42:38
here's the thing, you you've seen me.
2:42:40
I didn't communicate with you that way tonight.
2:42:43
And it's not that I haven't communicated that way with
2:42:46
people in the past, but to me, it's contextual now.
2:42:49
I'm accountable to that contextual usage, just like Dave
2:42:53
is accountable to that text. And maybe tonight he didn't do
2:42:56
it well. I don't know.
2:42:56
I'm not going to be the one to judge him.
2:42:58
God's going to judge him for for his metrics and methods and how
2:43:01
far he goes one way or the other and all that stuff.
2:43:03
And I'm not going to waste time on a bunch of my new shit trying
2:43:05
to pick it apart for him. My grand point stands, which is
2:43:09
that it's to focus on the actual words themselves is a problem
2:43:13
that that's that's my new show of.
2:43:15
Spiritual. That's not true if.
2:43:17
It was something of a functional nature, an inability to talk or
2:43:21
an ability to converse. Now we have a valid critique.
2:43:23
My my, my question. My question is, do you think
2:43:27
that because that was slander against me is why I'm calling it
2:43:31
out? I couldn't give a fuck if I
2:43:33
slander you. I'll slander you any time I God
2:43:35
damn want to slander you. I mean.
2:43:36
I got you buddy. You better got me because that's
2:43:39
what you're going to get. Here, here's the only difference
2:43:42
and let me let me just rebuttal your oh boy thing there.
2:43:47
So no, it had like I've said earlier, it has nothing to do
2:43:50
with me personally. I can care less what some
2:43:52
stranger says on the Internet like.
2:43:54
Bullshit, you very much care. I've dealt with you Live before
2:43:58
you dipshit, and don't fucking sit here and try to.
2:44:00
OK, so but when it comes to actual if there.
2:44:03
Is bullshit when it comes to. Actual believers in here, like
2:44:06
if there's people in the comments that that at the end of
2:44:09
the day that is the body of Christ.
2:44:10
Holy shit you ain't. Audio nothing to act childish
2:44:13
and to use that type of. Language.
2:44:15
You're the body of Humpty Dumpty.
2:44:16
To to be time to break down Bible.
2:44:19
On the wall and you're going to have a big call.
2:44:21
Especially, especially when it comes to salvation and you have
2:44:25
some guy speaking and acting that way.
2:44:29
Just everyone you got there. Yeah, I'm going to pull a little
2:44:32
fruit on you. That is.
2:44:33
Beautiful and I'm going. To agree to disagree I.
2:44:35
Fucking son of a bitch. How about if I use?
2:44:37
The dude language against is that OK?
2:44:41
Exactly what's happening right now I'm.
2:44:43
Going to use the dog language. Your brother, dude, I'm going to
2:44:46
use his language on you. OK?
2:44:48
What's wrong with that? If this if this is not childish,
2:44:51
I really don't know what. His really you cock sucker?
2:44:55
Dave, can I ask, was there, was there particular something I
2:44:58
missed where there was a past? Before in the past, and he's
2:45:02
just trying to, you know, just worm his way out of it.
2:45:04
But I challenge this asshole to a fucking full on debate on
2:45:08
Titus 38. Yeah, you're too chicken shit to
2:45:11
do it. You'll never do it.
2:45:13
That's then that's the real reason you won't do it.
2:45:15
But I still challenge you. I don't.
2:45:17
Know why? You see, you see, I do try to
2:45:20
keep things relatively copacetic.
2:45:22
I I see you, I definitely I will give you that.
2:45:24
I, I do see you try. I I'll give you an A for effort.
2:45:27
You take it a little bit debate on the president.
2:45:31
I am trying. You want a debate on 3/8?
2:45:34
No, but. I yeah, you're a chicken shit.
2:45:36
That's right, you're fucked in the ass.
2:45:38
But I'll fuck you in the ass. I'll fuck you in the ass with
2:45:41
the 2 red sword. I'll stick it right up your
2:45:43
fucking ass and we'll taste it in your throat.
2:45:47
Awesome buddy. From the Holy Ghost, the real
2:45:49
Holy Ghost now, not the two I got out of the cheats later on
2:45:52
in the. Smokey there.
2:45:54
I guys, I can't condone this. It's just no.
2:45:56
I can't condone the real, you can't condone the real Holy
2:45:58
Ghost. That's what it is.
2:46:00
You think the Holy Ghost is is going to come around happening
2:46:03
right now? Yeah.
2:46:06
It is what it. Is just rookie.
2:46:08
Are we going to refer to it as Christian nihilism for now on?
2:46:14
Yeah, I actually, yeah. I, I mean the worthlessness, the
2:46:17
uselessness of everything that we say or do, having no value
2:46:20
whatsoever, no value to God, no value to salvation.
2:46:23
No, I mean, I guess. Salvation and I.
2:46:26
I well, I mean, if it's not profitable to God, there's no
2:46:28
point for him to even reward it for us, reward us for I mean, I
2:46:31
don't care. It's the, it doesn't give me
2:46:32
some value to him, you know, So I mean, Titus 3/8 I guess is,
2:46:37
you know, everything you do, it's only valuable to men.
2:46:40
And there's a lot of things I can do for God that aren't
2:46:43
valuable to men at all, honestly.
2:46:45
In fact, most of the things I do for God.
2:46:52
That's why I'm using this little dry erase board.
2:46:54
That's actually the only thing that does please God.
2:46:57
So I mean, I, I think that is something we should all be doing
2:47:00
is. Yeah, but your your idea of
2:47:02
faith is just a mental state. It's just suspending disbelief
2:47:06
in something and there's no virtue in that.
2:47:08
Right when it comes to me, it's not no, he's he's examining
2:47:10
myself whether I'm in his faith. Free Grace House.
2:47:14
You know I don't like what I got.
2:47:17
Any other free Grace or he'll give him a pass through.
2:47:19
Motherfucking. Cock come up, there's one of
2:47:21
those. Good or anything they.
2:47:22
Want all things are lawful for the goddamn free grace are not
2:47:27
expedient. I'm sorry, I'm not even talking
2:47:32
to you, whether you fucking like it or not.
2:47:36
Chris, I appreciate you being here you.
2:47:38
It was a pleasure, seriously. Yeah, I mean, I, I'm about, I'm
2:47:42
about over the evening. I think I've finished my point.
2:47:45
I, I, I kind of wanted to get back into that Romans four
2:47:49
thing. So did I.
2:47:50
Maybe. Maybe another night, man.
2:47:52
It just, you know, I mean, what can I fucking do?
2:47:54
Sometimes it is what it is. I got you.
2:47:57
Hey, to to you 2 gentlemen. Seriously, it was a pleasure.
2:47:59
You guys are cordial. Oh.
2:48:01
Yeah, it's nice, Chris. It's so nice to have you with
2:48:03
us. Thank you for joining the press.
2:48:04
Nice. Talking to you.
2:48:05
How many I'm? Going to.
2:48:06
E-mail you OK? Sure, sure.
2:48:11
Just because we get hot and bothering didn't exciting
2:48:14
doesn't mean. I think I'm going to go out
2:48:16
against all out war against free Grace again just because of your
2:48:18
cock sucking big mouth tonight Free Grace.
2:48:21
Have a good one, boys. I'm going to go full scale war
2:48:24
against free grace again. I don't give a fuck if anybody
2:48:26
likes it or not. It's a beautiful day in the
2:48:33
neighborhood. It's a beautiful day in the
2:48:35
neighbor. The war's back on.
2:48:37
Fuck all this goddamn peace bullshit.
2:48:39
Middle finger Jesus is coming back and you're all fucked in
2:48:42
the ass. Get used to it.
2:48:44
The news unit has declared war again.
2:48:50
I'm sorry, what'd you say? I said better make sure we have
2:48:53
a Vaseline prepared than right Dave.
2:48:56
I'm talking to free graces. You're not one of them.
2:48:58
Are you? I hear you there, just in case.
2:49:04
Well, I guess, I guess I'll let you guys have your final.
2:49:09
So what happened to all these debates?
2:49:12
Nobody want Chris Free Grace debate.
2:49:14
What happened there? Little chicken shit.
2:49:18
Let's do some Mike say at stretches here.
2:49:26
Should I go stand in front of my refrigerator, Charlie?
2:49:29
Throwing off the pythons, he can come back.
2:49:33
And give his tank if he wants to finish up and give his take on
2:49:36
that comparison of Romans. I mean, I already gave the
2:49:39
comparison. I already gave the
2:49:41
reconciliation. I don't know.
2:49:43
Chris's ears were closed. And then Charlie came in and
2:49:46
seemed like he was going to make the exact same point I did.
2:49:49
That the works that are being talked about in Romans 4 are
2:49:52
specifically just works of the law which no one was ever
2:49:55
justified by. By the way, that's also in
2:49:58
Galatians 2. Galatians 2 verse 1516.
2:50:06
It says we ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners.
2:50:10
Yet we know. So these are Jews.
2:50:12
These are Jews that practice. The law and.
2:50:14
It says Yet we know that a person is not justified by works
2:50:19
of the law but move through faith in Jesus Christ.
2:50:23
So we also have believed in Christ Jesus in order to be
2:50:26
justified by faith in Christ and not by works of law, because by
2:50:29
works of the law no one will be justified.
2:50:34
By the way, Smokey, you have your microphone pointed in the
2:50:37
opposite direction. Shit.
2:50:38
Shit, I can. This has always been the case.
2:50:44
That's always my audio guy I guess or something.
2:50:48
So I get this on screen. So this is the case here.
2:50:52
We're again we're talking about works of the law.
2:50:55
Let me go to Galatians 2. Galatians 2 brings reference of
2:51:00
it about how we are not saved by works of the law.
2:51:05
And of course, this is what is reflected as we see just before.
2:51:09
And keep in mind, chapters are chapters, but these are these
2:51:13
are divisions decided by men that translated the book.
2:51:17
And you want to see what is being talked about right here
2:51:21
when he's bringing up Abraham and he's saying justified by
2:51:25
works. Was he justified by works?
2:51:27
Was there works there? And what is the reference?
2:51:30
What is the reference? What are the kind of works that
2:51:33
Paul is talking about here? Well, let's just go right back
2:51:35
just a little bit. Just a few sentences here.
2:51:38
And we hold for we hold that one is justified by faith apart from
2:51:41
works of the law, The law, see. So this is the context of what
2:51:50
Paul was talking about just a few sentences later when he's
2:51:54
talking about, or if Abraham was justified by works, he has
2:51:57
something to boast about, but not before God.
2:51:59
This is simply talking about works of the law.
2:52:05
He wasn't justified by works of the law.
2:52:09
And that's the context of the passage.
2:52:10
That's what Abraham was saying. So there is no contradiction
2:52:14
because here it talks about how Abraham was justified by works
2:52:18
when he offered Isaac. Well, this was not a work of the
2:52:21
law. This is not a work of the Mosaic
2:52:23
law, the sacrificial system, the law that was handed to Moses.
2:52:28
OK, so this is the clarification.
2:52:29
And he just shut his ears off, didn't want to hear it, didn't
2:52:33
want to hear what I was very clearly saying, which fixes it
2:52:36
for. Him.
2:52:36
He didn't even have the law on Moses yet.
2:52:38
Anyway, that was coming later. On Moses yet of course not.
2:52:41
Is Abraham. So clearly he's not saved by
2:52:45
works of the law, which is the whole point of this passage.
2:52:48
It's just you just got to go back a few sentences.
2:52:51
It's not that bad. It's easy right here.
2:52:55
What then should we say? It was gained by Abraham, our
2:52:58
forefather, according to the flesh.
2:52:59
For if Abraham was justified by works, what kind of works?
2:53:02
All works, Anything you do. No, that's not the context.
2:53:07
The context in Romans 320 and 328, by the way, and I'll show
2:53:13
you 320 as well, where it's reiterated what Paul is talking
2:53:17
about here. For by works of the law, here it
2:53:19
is again. For by works of the law, no
2:53:22
human being will be justified insight, since through the law
2:53:24
comes knowledge of sin. And then down here to 28, For we
2:53:28
hold that no one is justified by faith apart from works of the
2:53:32
law, Your works of the law, your sacrificial system.
2:53:38
That never saved anyone. It never did.
2:53:42
These were part of the covenant for the protection of the Jewish
2:53:45
people from their enemies. What saved people back then is
2:53:48
the same thing. It saved people.
2:53:49
Now a commitment, fidelity and submission to God, giving
2:53:52
yourself over to Him, which is the exact type of faith that
2:53:56
that Abraham showed and that Abraham demonstrated and the
2:53:59
exact faith that has drawn a reference point to us for what
2:54:03
is needed because it was by works.
2:54:05
It wasn't by his mental state. Abraham was not justified by his
2:54:10
mental state. His mental state wavered.
2:54:12
He doubted God, he doubted the promise, he didn't stick to it.
2:54:15
He didn't trust God indefinitely.
2:54:17
Clearly he chose to take Hagar. So what is it that didn't waver
2:54:21
his commitment? His commitment to God didn't
2:54:25
waver. His obedience to God didn't
2:54:28
waver. His commitment to God's, the
2:54:31
desire for his life and plan and direction didn't waver.
2:54:34
That's what didn't waver. That's what kept him going.
2:54:37
That's what kept him through even those moments where he
2:54:40
didn't believe in the in the promise that was given to him.
2:54:45
And it was progressive where it says it was perfected.
2:54:49
That's that's our sanctification as we go through it, we'll make
2:54:53
less mistakes at the end of our Christian walk that we did at
2:54:57
the beginning. And that is part of the process.
2:55:00
But that process has to be there.
2:55:02
That is the necessary byproduct, the unavoidable byproduct of the
2:55:06
type of faith that saved that commitment, that yielding to the
2:55:10
holy God. And that's what they do.
2:55:13
They make it sound like Paul here in Romans 4 is talking
2:55:17
about that you're not justified by any works at all.
2:55:21
None, including the works essential and the warnings that
2:55:26
are placed in scripture of the things to not do that you don't
2:55:29
no works. No, no, there's works not the
2:55:32
works of the Mosaic law. Those never saved anyone.
2:55:35
That's true and that's what it's talking about.
2:55:37
But they want to make it sound like, oh, just ignore Romans 3.
2:55:41
We're clearly the context of Paul's talking about is here
2:55:44
works of the law. Ignore all that and we're just
2:55:47
going to make it to where works is anything you could possibly
2:55:49
do for God stupid? I'm like an F right now.
2:55:53
I'm going to be like an F15 pilot.
2:55:55
I'm going to get in my fucking aircraft, get on the runway, and
2:55:59
I'm going to go full air assault.
2:56:02
I'm heading over to praise the I Am Channel right now.
2:56:04
I'm going to go fuck Free Grace live.
2:56:07
Even if they don't let me in, I'm going to make an attempt at
2:56:09
it, but nobody's going to shoot me down because I got the whole
2:56:12
armor of God. I'd like to see him try it.
2:56:14
See this message right here? I'm going over there.
2:56:17
I'm going there right now and I'm going to fucking blast them.
2:56:21
And if they don't, you know, let me in and all this shit and
2:56:23
misrepresent horseshit, then I'll just go over to the news
2:56:25
unit and sit there and fucking let them have it because I'm
2:56:29
done with this is not going to be peace.
2:56:32
No more peace with Free Grace. That's it.
2:56:35
Their little cock sucker Chris, Free Grace fucked it over for
2:56:39
him. He's like the guy he just made
2:56:41
trouble for the whole free Grace and you're fucked.
2:56:44
War has been redeclared. That's it, Chris.
2:56:49
Adam brought up something really interesting out in the comments.
2:56:53
He said. Why is Chris complaining?
2:56:54
I thought, according to Free Grace, God doesn't care about
2:56:57
what a believer does, so why should Chris?
2:57:00
It's interesting. So Dave can do whatever the hell
2:57:02
he wants. Who are they to say something?
2:57:04
See, if you go along with me and Smokey, you'll have the pleasure
2:57:07
of being able to let people know they're going to hell.
2:57:09
They keep fucking up. Right.
2:57:13
Well. Dave, do you want to go over
2:57:15
there right now and I'll, oh. Yeah, I'll go right now.
2:57:18
I'm going to go. I'm going to go tell them about
2:57:20
their Titus three hit and their free grace right now.
2:57:24
But you know they won't let me in because they they're too damn
2:57:26
chicken. Because I'm the guy that shows
2:57:28
up. You can't shoot me down.
2:57:30
You can't take it off you. All you can do is take the 2
2:57:33
head sword up the ass when I show up.
2:57:35
That's it. So watch, watch this all.
2:57:38
Right, we got a full room over there.
2:57:41
Here we go. Brother Martin went over there,
2:57:43
Chris Free Grace went over there not doing him praise.
2:57:47
And all of them, everyone. I think we're live.
2:57:52
I'm not going to go that far. If the Calvinist says you're not
2:57:55
a true Calvinist because you don't believe that, well, to
2:57:58
hell with them. I don't know, give a crap.
2:58:00
You show me with the scripture that says that I must believe
2:58:02
this in order to be right standing with.
2:58:04
God, yeah, I. Mean answer a question Beckham.
2:58:07
Yeah. So like, so like let's just use
2:58:10
the eco late team, right? When God, when God says he
2:58:13
doesn't desire the Wick of the parish, but that they turn to a
2:58:17
lair. So from your perspective, you
2:58:19
say that something God truly does desire, but also didn't
2:58:23
decree for that to happen? Or how would you say that?
2:58:26
Well, first of all, what I say is that that passage in Ezekiel
2:58:30
18 is sort of a hyperbolic message towards the people who
2:58:35
are criticizing God's judgmental judgments towards the people who
2:58:40
are violating His law. So people were making it seem
2:58:43
like God is this sadistic. You know, you know, God who just
2:58:51
loves to torture people and send people to hell for even for the
2:58:55
most trivial things. Ezekiel is responding to these
2:59:00
accusations made against God and say that he does not desire the
2:59:03
death of the wicked, you know, and he and he displays that by
2:59:07
showing them examples of God's grace through giving them
2:59:11
chances to repent and him rewarding them for their
2:59:16
penitent of act actions and stuff like that.
2:59:20
But you know at the same time you know as.
2:59:23
We can say that. The.
2:59:25
Passages. Like.
2:59:26
Proverbs 16. Or Romans. 9 Several passages
2:59:30
there we have to conclude that there are individuals in this.
2:59:33
World. And we humans don't have to have
2:59:36
full understanding of it, but those passages, we could debate
2:59:40
about that another time. There are individuals in this
2:59:42
world who I believe are appointed to be specifically
2:59:45
adversarial towards God and His people.
2:59:48
OK, OK, so you're saying what the Proverbs?
2:59:50
I'm going to use Proverbs 16 as an example.
2:59:53
So you're saying that's not applied universally to every
2:59:55
single person, but particularly individuals?
2:59:58
He's going over and he's. Being Proverbs 16/4.
3:00:00
No Proverbs 16, I'm sorry. What What verse though?
3:00:04
Whatever verse you're referencing.
3:00:06
Yeah, verse four, that has made all things for himself.
3:00:11
Yeah, even the wicked for the day of evil.
3:00:14
Yeah. OK, what about verse?
3:00:16
What about verse one? Verse one.
3:00:19
What does that say? Like I think something like man
3:00:23
may play man it's answer but God like I can't remember exactly
3:00:28
the exact wording. Of the preparations of the heart
3:00:31
in man. Belongs in the tongue and then.
3:00:35
Who'd you say something, Brett? Well, yeah, I can't hear you.
3:00:39
Oh, there he goes. He's ready to rot.
3:00:41
Yeah. So do you take that like God
3:00:43
does it with every single individual or particular?
3:00:46
So this one I'm just trying to get it's.
3:00:48
Proverbs. What was it?
3:00:49
Say it one more. Time Proverbs Proverbs 16 verse
3:00:52
9 we're looking at right now. I'm going to.
3:00:54
Get a drink, I'm listening. Yeah, I think there are certain
3:00:57
in certain case. If you don't mind.
3:00:59
My. Specific.
3:01:10
Oh look, Dave's here. Dave has someone to put that up
3:01:12
for. Oh, there you go, Chris.
3:01:15
Oh gosh, Titus 38 again. He's.
3:01:18
Always bringing. He's always bringing his purse.
3:01:21
Up old war on free grace. Oh no, not again.
3:01:25
Don't. Worry free graces, he's
3:01:26
challenged me on the same thing. So I know it's fine.
3:01:30
I'd be like that. Yeah, of course.
3:01:31
Yeah. I'll tell you what I'll do.
3:01:33
And, and I mean this, I'm, I'm sorry to jump in, but my name's
3:01:36
on the board. Dave.
3:01:38
I would debate Smokey on that verse.
3:01:40
I think you're a spiritual clown and I wouldn't talk Bible with
3:01:43
you ever. You're too childish, you're too
3:01:47
stupid. You talk too out of the way, and
3:01:50
there's nothing edifying about speaking to you.
3:01:53
So have any of your crew want to debate me on it?
3:01:58
I'll take the debate. But you're really you're not in
3:02:01
the you're not in shape enough to debate the Bible.
3:02:04
Well, let me just say some really quick Chris, did you know
3:02:07
that you're on mute, Dave? Thank God.
3:02:13
Oh, I just want to say check our debate on me and usually.
3:02:16
Not in shape enough? What do you mean I'm not in
3:02:18
shape enough? You want me to work out a little
3:02:20
bit harder? Look at those biblical muscles.
3:02:25
Listen. These are 23 and 1/4 inch
3:02:28
fucking circumference. Pythons.
3:02:31
Those are pythons. 23 inches. Pythons brother.
3:02:38
Yeah, Chris, check out our debate.
3:02:40
Me and Dave, he was the most cordial, one of the most
3:02:43
cordial, amicable debates I've ever had.
3:02:45
So, Dave? He wasn't cordial no more than 3
3:02:48
minutes. Ago.
3:02:51
Because he was he's. He's around certain people.
3:02:53
But he did go off script in that debate praise.
3:02:56
He was way off script of the focus of the debate.
3:03:00
What he just did on another channel is so it's disgusting.
3:03:05
He should be ashamed of himself. Seriously.
3:03:06
He cordially went off script, but he went off script.
3:03:11
Well, I mean, yeah, we're pretty much right.
3:03:13
The discussion. Right, but the vehicle but like
3:03:16
a vehicle so like it's verse 9 with God is doing with every
3:03:19
single person like determining that or just certain people.
3:03:23
I I I don't believe that it's with every single individual to
3:03:27
be honest, I but I I could be just claiming ignorance on that
3:03:31
the the Calvinists will go the other Calvinists would say,
3:03:36
well, yeah, because you know, we believe God in the decrees all
3:03:39
things but yet secondary aspect of man's free will.
3:03:43
So you have it though. You embrace A distinction
3:03:45
between God's foreknowledge. Not him looking down time, but
3:03:49
just him knowing all things versus Him having to determine
3:03:52
all things. That sounds like the distinction
3:03:54
you're making. Right.
3:03:55
But I don't know, I can only speak in hindsight of every
3:03:59
situation. Like, for example, if dude, you
3:04:01
know, walks up and decides to pick up a penny that he feel
3:04:05
finds on the ground, I'm not, oh, that was God orchestrating
3:04:10
that since the foundation of the world, I, I, I, I, I to me, I
3:04:15
just think that's a little bit of a philosophical overreach and
3:04:18
it's not necessary. I can just simply say, hey, dude
3:04:21
saw a penny on the ground and he decided to pick it up.
3:04:25
And also it has other issues. OK, so then I'll just give you a
3:04:29
simple one. Why would God desire people to
3:04:32
be saved? Depending on your view of that
3:04:34
whether it's all all types yet he yet he decrees for them not
3:04:39
to be saved. Desires all men to be saved.
3:04:43
No, whether you believe all. All types.
3:04:46
Right. So like, let's say he believes.
3:04:49
Why does God want? Why does God want any?
3:04:52
Probably double that. Very exciting.
3:04:56
Yeah, very exciting indeed. OK, well, I'll turn into a
3:04:59
little bit of a shit show at some point, but that's OK.
3:05:02
That's fine. I got my points out that I
3:05:04
wanted to make tonight. I'm glad there was at least one
3:05:06
free gracer to come in and put a little bit of a fight.
3:05:10
He did ultimately ignore the whole point I made, just as I
3:05:13
said he was before he made his point, you know, trying to say,
3:05:15
oh, there's a contradiction. Yeah, if you take it the way you
3:05:19
do, where again, you know, works includes everything you possibly
3:05:22
do, everything Abraham ever did, you know that wasn't a
3:05:26
justification, then yes, you do force a contradiction into James
3:05:30
too. And if your whole thing is to be
3:05:32
like, well, James too is only talking about justification
3:05:35
before men. No bullshit.
3:05:38
The only place you'll ever find where there's a talk about any
3:05:41
justification before men is Jesus rebuking Pharisees for
3:05:46
trying to be justified before men instead of being justified
3:05:48
before God. So that's horseshit.
3:05:51
You can do lots of things that'll justify you before men
3:05:54
that'll have nothing to do with justifying you before God.
3:05:58
And man does not respect the things.
3:06:00
In fact, there's a lot of men that do not even respect the
3:06:03
story of Abraham. They find it heinous and
3:06:05
disgusting that God would even command Abraham to do it, let
3:06:08
alone the Abraham would be willing.
3:06:11
And I don't think most of us have the type of faith that
3:06:14
Abraham had, that incredible deep, deep faith.
3:06:17
And that's the type of faith that is an example for saving
3:06:20
faith. So if you don't have that type
3:06:22
of faith, then you should be following what is it,
3:06:25
Philippians 2, Philippians 2. And you should be examining
3:06:28
yourselves to see whether or not you're in the faith.
3:06:31
That's a command. That's something you should be
3:06:33
doing. If you're not in the faith,
3:06:34
you're not saved. If you're in the faith, you're
3:06:36
saved. It's a true dichotomy.
3:06:38
It really is that simple. Right.
3:06:41
Well, exactly, yes, Adam, that was kind of my point.
3:06:45
When you look at the full content, Adam, wow, Adam is very
3:06:48
feminine looking. Adam.
3:06:49
That's why that was kind of my main point.
3:06:51
When you look back into it and you really consider what the
3:06:55
context is, there is nothing to justify this text is talking
3:06:59
about anything to do with justification before men.
3:07:02
You are really reaching out into the fringe.
3:07:05
There's nothing in the tax that could possibly allude to that.
3:07:07
And even Kevin the other night, he said, well, it's context.
3:07:10
It tells me it's justification before men.
3:07:12
No, what context are you talking about?
3:07:15
Oh, well, the context in the sense that it can't go against
3:07:17
my pre packaged belief. That's really what he meant.
3:07:20
That's really all he had to say. The fact is the text says what
3:07:23
the text says. And if you're not reconciling
3:07:25
the tax and you're doing what the free gracers do, which is
3:07:28
they force that type of contradiction.
3:07:31
Abraham was justified by faith. It's and he was justified by the
3:07:34
works that flowed from that type of faith that would save.
3:07:37
And the type of faith that would save has those types of works
3:07:40
into it because it's the type of faith that is that ultimate
3:07:42
fidelity, commitment, submission, you know, adherence
3:07:45
to obeying, you know, it doesn't mean anyone has ever done it
3:07:49
perfectly, but their, their spirit, their goal, their focus,
3:07:53
their mindset, their commitment, their state of affairs, like how
3:07:57
they view God and how they're going about it.
3:08:00
This is what saves them. It is that type of undying
3:08:03
commitment that gets them to that state of where they are
3:08:06
making the decisions to make the right choices to do what is
3:08:09
proper and moral. That is the faith that is the
3:08:12
commitment that says that is the fidelity that says that is the
3:08:16
fiducia. That's the component of faith
3:08:19
that all they all love, love to just cut out of the equation
3:08:22
Noticia, which is knowledge, a census, which is affirmation.
3:08:26
That is true. And that's where they draw the
3:08:28
line and they cut out the fiducia, the responsibility, the
3:08:32
fidelity, the submission, the recognizing of who and what he
3:08:36
is and his position in reality, how he views sin and his
3:08:39
expectations on those that are part of his Kingdom.
3:08:42
That's required of us. That is that true submission.
3:08:45
And that is exactly what was given to Abraham.
3:08:48
Thank you, James, Thank you. Abraham obeyed my voice and kept
3:08:53
my charge, my command, my statute, and my laws.
3:08:56
So Abraham was justified indeed by his works.
3:09:01
He was his faith, which justified was completed by his
3:09:04
works, and his works were a sign of the type of faith and
3:09:07
fidelity that he held. So yes, he was justified by
3:09:11
works. And if he did not have that
3:09:13
faith, those works wouldn't have been there.
3:09:15
And that faith is the faith that saves.
3:09:17
That's that commitment. That's not giving over of
3:09:20
oneself to God. And this is where the free
3:09:22
gracers stumble. They can't understand the faith
3:09:25
of Abraham that saved him. They turn it into a mental
3:09:28
state. They turn it into a suspension
3:09:30
of disbelief of a certain factoid.
3:09:32
There's no virtue in that. And there's nowhere in Scripture
3:09:36
to where you can draw the idea that God finds that ultimate
3:09:40
virtue or that that is the ticket to salvation is simply
3:09:43
suspending disbelief at a historical fact.
3:09:47
That's absurd. And that is not the examples of
3:09:50
the salvation that justifies in the salvation that saves.
3:09:53
That's just not in the Bible. That type of belief being what
3:09:56
saves is nowhere in the Bible. They have to go to Webster's and
3:10:00
look at what the word believe means in English and say, well,
3:10:03
this must be what it means. It was not written in English.
3:10:06
This is an interpretation of what you want to know, what the
3:10:08
Bible means when it, when it translates the word believe from
3:10:12
pistuo, the verb form of faith, pistas.
3:10:16
Then you need to look at the Bible and see what it's talking
3:10:18
about when it says that. What does that faith look like?
3:10:22
It looks like the type of commitment where people give all
3:10:24
of their life over to God, and that is an action.
3:10:27
Giving your life over to God is an action.
3:10:30
It is. And that's where the action of
3:10:32
the faith is really ultimately coming into.
3:10:34
It's more than just the mental state.
3:10:37
It's doing something of yourself, making choices, doing
3:10:41
to actually put your commitment into God and to obey and operate
3:10:46
with his commands and his desires and His wills.
3:10:49
So. Hope.
3:10:52
I, I had Smokey was every time you seem to get into a debate or
3:10:56
discussion with one of these type of folks, I noticed that
3:11:00
they, instead of answering your questions that they always ended
3:11:03
with, well, can I have you look at this first?
3:11:06
Can I have you do this or what do you think about that?
3:11:09
But they never really get too descriptive or detailed into
3:11:12
their information. And you're always generous to
3:11:15
take on the challenge and answer their questions and all that.
3:11:18
But it doesn't seem to be the same way vice versa.
3:11:22
Second of all, I was wanting to know if you'd allow me to
3:11:24
attempt to make a cool background with mist and some
3:11:27
neat shit going on in the background for you.
3:11:29
Sure, yeah, I could use a freshen up.
3:11:32
Yeah, why not? I'll try to make you a more
3:11:35
fluent. It's it's a, it's a gift format
3:11:39
if that helps you because that seems to be the only one that it
3:11:41
accepts, if that helps. Well, it allows MP4 now I don't.
3:11:45
Know oh, does it all right when I first started it was only GIF.
3:11:49
So it's a it's a gift file that's on there.
3:11:50
But yeah, if you have something you want to put something
3:11:53
together for me. No, I appreciate you have
3:11:54
something to freshen it up. Yeah, good to go.
3:11:56
I I would like to do something for you where it has a smoky St.
3:12:00
and like glowing letters with mist inside of it and a little
3:12:04
bit of flames coming out of the bottom and all that.
3:12:07
Would that be an issue or do you just want the fog?
3:12:11
I don't know, maybe one of each, you know, maybe one for
3:12:13
different moods or different situations, you know, I mean
3:12:17
dumpster fire type 1 when stuff is going down.
3:12:19
Maybe one that's just chill like this, like lounge type stuff,
3:12:22
you know, a couple different things maybe.
3:12:25
All right, I'll send you a couple different samples and use
3:12:28
what you want. All right, very cool.
3:12:31
All right. Well, anything else you want to
3:12:32
say, Brad? I guess we're going to wrap this
3:12:33
up. Yeah, it seems like, you know,
3:12:37
rock'n'roll as usual, man, it's always a good time always
3:12:41
learning stuff for sure. I just wish that they would they
3:12:44
would actually use some kind of defense instead of their defense
3:12:47
being, oh, look at this, look at this, look at this.
3:12:51
Right, right. Yeah.
3:12:55
OK. Well, all right.
3:12:56
Well, Brett, well, take care. You have yourself a good night.
3:12:58
And I guess we're going to wrap this up here, but thank you for
3:13:01
joining and thank you for being part of the show.
3:13:04
Pleasure per usual. And keep me posted with whatever
3:13:06
happens with that gentleman and whether or not he's willing to
3:13:09
have me on his show because we'll go take care of that.
3:13:12
I'm certainly happy to do so. So, yeah, good stuff.
3:13:15
So thanks for being here, Brett. Appreciate you have yourself a
3:13:17
good night. One last thing, if anybody
3:13:19
challenges you to a like a another debate or whatever, I'd
3:13:24
be more than happy to mod. I don't think praise did
3:13:26
terrible, but I think that it's better when it's open discussion
3:13:29
because you're able to say and get out whatever you feel you
3:13:32
need to do. Yeah, yeah.
3:13:35
We'll keep it. We'll keep it in mind.
3:13:37
Definitely. I appreciate the offer.
3:13:38
Thank you so much, Brett. Appreciate you have yourself a
3:13:40
good night. All right, OK, well I guess
3:13:44
we're going to wrap it up here guys and finish it up.
3:13:48
This was good. I think I got everything out for
3:13:50
the most part. I wanted to get out.
3:13:52
I hope you guys enjoyed it and got some helpful stuff out of
3:13:55
it. I wish we probably could have
3:13:56
gotten a little more done with the that thing and Charlie
3:13:59
Michaels coming in the room, but I get it.
3:14:00
He doesn't really like the open environments type stuff too.
3:14:03
And by the way, keep in mind too, I will clear the room if
3:14:06
people request like a one-on-one, you know, moderated
3:14:09
type situation when they come in the room, I'll give it to them.
3:14:12
I have in the past. I certainly am fine to do.
3:14:14
So if someone comes in and has something they want to pitch or
3:14:18
get out there, I'll absolutely clear the room and moderate, you
3:14:21
know, to give the chance for people to throw it out, even if
3:14:23
it's against me and I got a mod. Dave's always floating around
3:14:25
or, you know, Brett could always do it or someone else.
3:14:27
So, you know, there's always someone available to do
3:14:29
something like that if absolutely need be.
3:14:31
So well, I got it all out. I hope you guys enjoyed it.
3:14:35
The grand scope of this is that Osas Abraham did not exist, was
3:14:39
not a real person, was not a real thing.
3:14:42
Abraham had a type of commitment and a type of faith that saved
3:14:46
him and the faith that justified him was one that committed his
3:14:49
life to him, where he served God, followed God.
3:14:53
And isn't that the definition of the sheep in Matthew 10?
3:14:57
Or is it John 10, John 10 that I believe they love to reference
3:15:01
where you cannot be plucked out of his hand.
3:15:02
Well, what's the definition of a sheep that can't be plucked out
3:15:04
of his hand? Well, someone that follows them,
3:15:06
you know, and you can't escape that.
3:15:08
That is the definition of what a saved person is.
3:15:10
Even by their favorite text, which they try to use to claim
3:15:14
that O SAS is true. But in that very text, it shows
3:15:18
that the people that only fit that criteria are ones that
3:15:20
follow Christ. So if you look at Scripture
3:15:25
through a lens of honesty and genuine concern for the state of
3:15:30
your soul, I do not think you possibly can come to the
3:15:34
conclusion that free grace is true.
3:15:36
And at the end of the day, do you realize you are risking your
3:15:40
own soul betting on this is true or not?
3:15:43
You might enjoy or get a thrill out of surrounding people of
3:15:47
like minds and similar, similar beliefs, but you should not get
3:15:53
lulled into a sense of overwhelming comfort of the idea
3:15:59
that you are just saved and can't possibly lose it.
3:16:02
Because now you're going to stop reflecting.
3:16:03
You're going to violate warnings of scripture and intrinsic
3:16:07
commands to analyze yourself and avoid doctrines of demons and,
3:16:11
you know, seducing spirits and things like that.
3:16:13
You're going to be desensitized. You're not going to be fully
3:16:16
equipped, you know, for the attacks of the enemy when they
3:16:20
come because you've been lulled into a sense of false security.
3:16:24
The Scripture does not give you the type of security that Free
3:16:28
Grace presents. And hopefully, between the
3:16:31
debate last night and some of the additions tonight, you guys
3:16:34
got a really clear picture of what I think really sound
3:16:37
biblical saving faith actually is and what the substance of it
3:16:41
is and what it actually looks like.
3:16:43
I'm willing to debate anyone on this topic anytime.
3:16:49
Overall, I thought it was a pretty good show.
3:16:51
I do allow derailing and a little bit of organic
3:16:54
exploration of various things that went a little off tilt
3:16:57
tonight and tonight that I would have probably preferred for the
3:17:00
structure of what I wanted to get done.
3:17:01
But nonetheless, this is part of what makes the Smokey St. show
3:17:04
so interesting. So I hope you guys actually did
3:17:07
enjoy it and got something out of it.
3:17:09
Brother James Frazier, I appreciate you being here per
3:17:12
usual and sounding off inside chat.
3:17:14
Charlie, I do appreciate you coming in as as brief as it was.
3:17:18
I appreciate all the other panelists for coming in and
3:17:21
willing to contribute and engage.
3:17:23
You're a cut above the rest because you're willing to
3:17:25
actually show up, use your, your real voice, put on your big boy
3:17:28
pants and actually contend and have conversations.
3:17:31
So thanks to Chris Free Grace for being willing to do that as
3:17:36
well. Something lit Dave's fuse over
3:17:39
Titus 3/8 and I it, it was what it was.
3:17:43
So any case, that's, that's sometimes just how the shows go
3:17:47
and we deal with it. But ultimately we still get
3:17:49
through our stuff when we give people the opportunity to
3:17:51
communicate and challenge us and explore the topics a little
3:17:54
deeper. And I am appreciative for free
3:17:56
free Grace, Chris, Chris, free grace.
3:17:58
We're coming in here and assisting in that.
3:18:01
Basically being someone to present a little bit from the
3:18:04
counter side and allow me to contend with it and really paint
3:18:07
the picture and drill it home. So I'm at least thankful for
3:18:10
that. So I appreciate you guys.
3:18:13
I hope you all have yourselves a very, very lovely night.
3:18:15
I'm not sure what the rest of my time is.
3:18:18
I'm going to go check on the misses.
3:18:19
If she's asleep, I might go in and say hi to praise or
3:18:22
something, but I'm going to take a break.
3:18:24
I'll probably make myself a little snack and we'll see what
3:18:26
the rest of the night has for us.
3:18:28
Me and the misses have a full day plan tomorrow.
3:18:31
I'm going to go out and do some shopping, have a nice little
3:18:33
afternoon, have a little dinner, that type of thing.
3:18:36
Probably not going to stream tomorrow night.
3:18:38
I have a few other things to get done, but I probably will be
3:18:41
back at it sometime closer to the weekend or past the weekend.
3:18:46
We'll have another stream set up so make sure if you guys haven't
3:18:50
yet, please hit the like button. Please hit the the bell for the
3:18:53
notification so you don't miss the live shows.
3:18:55
That's where all the interesting stuff happens and we will
3:18:59
definitely get you guys back on the next one.
3:19:03
God bless all of you. Thank you for being here.
3:19:05
I wish peace of Christ to all the true Saints and I am finally
3:19:09
signing out.