Latest / Show, don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori / 83. Not Your Granny's Grammar with Patty McGee

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83. Not Your Granny's Grammar with Patty McGee · Show, don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori

• 0:05
  Welcome to the Show, don't Tell Writing Podcast with me, Suzy Vadori, where I peel back the layers of how to wow your readers with your fiction, your nonfiction.
• 0:13
  Anybody can bang out a first draft, but it takes a little more work to make your book as amazing as it can be.
• 0:20
  Join me as I share the step by step writing techniques you could apply to your writing right away.
• 0:25
  As I host successful writers who share a behind the scenes look at their own writing lives, and as I live coach writers on their pages giving practical writing examples that will make your own writing stronger.
• 0:38
  Nobody is born knowing how to write an engaging book.
• 0:42
  There are real and important skills that you need to learn on this show.
• 0:46
  I cut through the noise and get you all the info you need.
• 0:49
  I can't wait to see how this information is going to transform your writing.
• 0:56
  Today we welcome to the show Hattie McGee and she is the literary consultant and she has written a book called Not Your Granny's Grammar, an Innovative Approach to Meaningful and Engaging Grammar Instruction.
• 1:09
  She co-wrote it with Timothy Donahue.
• 1:11
  Now, before you skip ahead to the next episode and say, grammar Susie, really, come on.
• 1:17
  Remember, we're on the show Tell podcast.
• 1:20
  We have a lot of fun with all things writing.
• 1:22
  I promise you this conversation with Patty is awesome.
• 1:25
  The reason I wanted her to come on the show is because she teaches grammar much in the same manner that I teach writing.
• 1:31
  She breaks it all down.
• 1:32
  She talks about it in a way that's really, really fun.
• 1:36
  Patie McGee is a nationally recognized literary consultant.
• 1:40
  She's a speaker and an educator.
• 1:41
  The passion for transforming classrooms into spaces where language and learning come alive.
• 1:46
  She's got decades of experience as a teacher, as a coach, and an advocate for delightful literacy practices.
• 1:53
  Patie has worked alongside educators across the country of the United States partnering to unlock the full potential of their students through innovative and practical teaching strategies.
• 2:04
  Not your Granny's Grammar is actually her third book on writing.
• 2:08
  I can't wait for you to hear this conversation.
• 2:11
  If you have ever been scared of grammar or worry that maybe your grammar isn't up to snuff, this one's for you.
• 2:17
  We're gonna talk about why grammar's important, what exactly it is.
• 2:21
  Think give you a few tips along the way.
• 2:23
  Enjoy.
• 2:25
  Welcome to the show.
• 2:26
  Don't Tell Writing podcast Hadie McGee.
• 2:29
  So good to meet you.
• 2:30
  A happy week to geek out with you, a book grammar.
• 2:33
  Oh, I'm so happy to be here.
• 2:34
  I'm happy to geek out about grammar anytime.
• 2:38
  Yeah, absolutely not all of our winners are gonna be so excited to listen to a grammar episode.
• 2:44
  I think it's gonna be fun.
• 2:45
  I'm, I've read Patty's book and, you know, taken a look and, and everything above you.
• 2:50
  I haven't spoken with you before, but I can't wait.
• 2:53
  We're gonna make this fun, right?
• 2:55
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 2:57
  Okay.
• 2:57
  So I'm gonna start an easy question here because I wanna just talk about grammar.
• 3:03
  Is this elusive thing?
• 3:04
  What?
• 3:05
  What is it, Patty?
• 3:06
  For writers listening today, what is your definition?
• 3:09
  What is color?
• 3:10
  To me, grammar is style.
• 3:13
  Grammar is like a painter's paintbrush.
• 3:17
  The way we choose our words to convey our meaning, which gives our words power, especially dependent on our audience.
• 3:26
  Yeah, and I, I saw that quote in the book.
• 3:28
  It's, you know, grammar is to writers as a painter's, paintbrush is to painter, right?
• 3:35
  Yeah.
• 3:35
  And that's absent, right?
• 3:36
  It is one of the tools in your toolbox as a writer for sure.
• 3:42
  This is a question that comes up a lot, so it sounds simple, but there's one different answers.
• 3:46
  But is grammar important?
• 3:49
  First of all, I wanna clarify the way I think about grammar.
• 3:52
  I think about currently grammar in three bucket, that there's spoken grammar and that changes community to community, household to household.
• 4:02
  Then there's book grammar and that is the way that the author is choosing to use or not use the third bucket, which would be standard grammar.
• 4:12
  And so standard grammar is, you know, there's many different quote unquote style guides.
• 4:18
  We've got our.
• 4:19
  Chicago and a PA and AP and MLA, and there's a bunch out there.
• 4:25
  And so when we're writing to an audience that is a specific audience, like for example, in the medical profession, they have their own set of grammar rules.
• 4:37
  So grammar is something that is flexible, dependent upon the audience.
• 4:42
  And it's important because when we consider our audience, which yay, like best moment in parenting, my, my son said to me once, mom, the best advice you gave me was consider your audience.
• 4:56
  And so how we, you say, consider the reader, but exactly the same.
• 5:00
  Everything that I teach is focused on the reader because at the end of the day, you want somebody to read and digest with written and get it.
• 5:10
  Yep, exactly.
• 5:12
  And it really serves well life by the way, because it's like we know that like he used to be a debater, so he would think about that reader slash audience.
• 5:22
  Um, absolutely.
• 5:23
  How we use grammar can make a big difference in how we convey what we're trying to say.
• 5:29
  To our audience, and therefore it makes our words more powerful.
• 5:34
  It can change so much around us.
• 5:36
  So knowing grammar and knowing how to break the rules, it's very helpful.
• 5:42
  Absolutely.
• 5:43
  And so I wanna break down a few things that you've mentioned here.
• 5:46
  'cause they're all really important, especially if you're newer to the writing function or if you've been writing for a while.
• 5:51
  Don't know.
• 5:52
  The behind scenes on the editing scene, which was, you mentioned style guides.
• 5:56
  And so yes, there are a number of different styles.
• 5:59
  Those kind what editors or publishers have as standards in terms of sometimes it's formatting, sometimes it's grammar, but was acceptable and you don't, for the most part, as a writer, you don't need to worry too much of that.
• 6:12
  Where it gets really fun.
• 6:14
  Me anyways, as a book coach is when I work with, let's say, an academic writer who has learned, you were mentioning the medical profession has certain standards and things or the financial profession.
• 6:28
  We're writing for the new times versus we're just chit-chatting about it.
• 6:32
  And so one of the things that grammar pen be used to do or relax to do is to invade voice.
• 6:39
  And so many of listeners here are fiction writers.
• 6:42
  Some are also non-fiction writers.
• 6:45
  But you're right, there are those three buckets.
• 6:47
  And there's spoken language, which I mean, if you're a native English speaker, and we're not all native speakers.
• 6:53
  I'm currently working with, uh, a client whose English is her fifth language.
• 6:58
  One grammar isn't going to come write as easily.
• 7:02
  And I'm also writing a book with a writer who English is seventh language.
• 7:06
  Uh, if you're listening out there, he calls it the language of in his inspiration.
• 7:11
  So he though speaks other languages.
• 7:14
  And so, so it may be more difficult to keep all the rules straight in your head.
• 7:19
  It may not be as easy for those who grew up speaking English, their first language, or uh, close to first language.
• 7:26
  Probably speak it ly and then there's this translation into written grammar.
• 7:34
  And how does, how is that different from folk and grammar?
• 7:37
  So if I speak English, does that mean that I am necessarily going to be able to just blow it onto page?
• 7:43
  How does, how does that differ in your experience?
• 7:45
  Yes.
• 7:46
  I think that, and it's a theory I'd like to test with a little bit more research, but I have found that those who have.
• 7:56
  First language other than English, are better at understanding English grammar because they have something to compare it to.
• 8:05
  Yeah.
• 8:05
  And with that comparison, they can be more accurate with standard grammar, whereas native speakers have been hearing a spoken grammar that isn't always utilized in their writing.
• 8:18
  And sometimes it is, but because it's different, it's almost harder for a single language learner to learn grammar.
• 8:26
  Makes sense actually, and, and I think English is one of those languages, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it's one of those languages that breaks a lot of rules or doesn't have a lot of rules or has different rules depending on the circumstances.
• 8:37
  Whereas some languages are much more straightforward.
• 8:39
  And so yes, if you're learning English as a skin language, you probably already learned a lot of that to figure out how to speak it.
• 8:47
  And so when you go to write it, maybe somehow it's intuitive, but in terms of people who can speak it fluently.
• 8:53
  Putting down grammar is alive, right?
• 8:57
  And grammar changes over time.
• 8:58
  There's a section in the book that actually has grammar through the ages, right?
• 9:03
  And so you've got like phrases where you, you talk about, and I also edit period pieces or historical fiction where sometimes we are using a different version of language now.
• 9:14
  We kind of just give a nod to it.
• 9:16
  For the most part, we don't wanna make it so difficult that nobody can read it.
• 9:20
  And certainly you wanna be accurate in terms of what you use, but at the same time, we're not always strictly accurate or people wouldn't understand it.
• 9:30
  But grammar's a lot.
• 9:31
  Correct.
• 9:31
  So this changes over time.
• 9:33
  Yeah.
• 9:35
  I thought what happens is spoken grammar influences, written grammar influences, standard grammar.
• 9:44
  That's what I'd seen.
• 9:46
  So for example, thinking about the Oxford comma, let's say, which for those of you who are unfamiliar with the Oxford comma, it just means that in a list you're putting the comma before the, and it's not a rule that everyone has to follow, but.
• 10:03
  I happen to be Team Oxford comma, I am also strictly team Oxford comma, because it's so useful.
• 10:11
  And then why would you wanna ignore it and why would you ever wanna get rid of anyways?
• 10:14
  Yes, there's different capsule that, and you talked about style guides.
• 10:18
  You choose a style guide, it will tell you whether or not you're to use that.
• 10:22
  And then you just need to be considered right.
• 10:25
  But that is one that is pinned versus a rule.
• 10:29
  Exactly, and that is something that the way we speak has changed over time because when we are speaking in a list, we pause after each thing.
• 10:39
  So it might be Liz comma Soie, and Patty went to the store because we speak with that pause, that Oxford comma became more important, and because we want to hear where we're pausing when we're reading as well.
• 10:58
  Without the Oxford comma, it could be Liz, Suzy, and Patty went to the store.
• 11:06
  And so having which rooms you would eat together, right?
• 11:10
  Yes, exactly.
• 11:11
  Exactly.
• 11:12
  And because of that spoken P that we usually use up come the Oxford comma as something in some cases are a must, and in other cases are an option.
• 11:24
  Amazing.
• 11:25
  My husband has a shirt that says.
• 11:27
  Let eat Bob and let's eat Bob.
• 11:30
  And, and it's two Bears with Bob, and it's from math, which is near where I live.
• 11:35
  You know, the, the karma can change and that's not an example of the opera comma, of course, but you're right, it can change a lot of things and it can be subject to different interpretations and they think that's where.
• 11:46
  It can be confusing to writers for sure.
• 11:49
  And we talk about grammar evolving.
• 11:52
  I mean, words are evolving all the time if you follow the dictionary, allows for new words to be entered each year.
• 12:00
  And sometimes I think this, I, I'm gonna say this and I now, I can't remember if you, but what, what the 20, 25 year, um, word of the year was.
• 12:09
  I'll have to look it up, but I remember it was two words.
• 12:12
  And they were saying, oh, it's two words, but are things being added all the time?
• 12:17
  And as a parent of three teenagers who watch a lot of TikTok and who you know are always looking for those new trendy words, I try to use them often and use them poorly because the girls cycle through the household faster.
• 12:30
  'cause oh my god, even my mom saying that, I'm gonna stop saying it right.
• 12:34
  Um, yes.
• 12:34
  But yeah, I mean, language is starting to evolve even more quickly because we have so many tools at our disposal and, and content is instantly available to people.
• 12:45
  And you could create something yesterday and today it's become a me, right?
• 12:50
  Or today it's become a word and you keep using that word, then it gets introduced into the language forever.
• 12:56
  Right?
• 12:57
  Right.
• 12:58
  So this day and age.
• 13:00
  When it moving so quickly, we have tools to correct force and everything else, and honestly, typos are rapid.
• 13:10
  I was on television a couple of months ago and I actually didn't realize that it had aired except that I got a, you know, I, I heard from a couple of people that had aired 'cause it wasn't in my part of the country.
• 13:20
  And it was when I was speaking at a conference that it was filmed and it was aired like eight weeks later or something.
• 13:26
  It was all correct on the video clip of the television.
• 13:30
  When they hosted it online, it was like they took an AI trans.
• 13:33
  And so my last name was spelled Bong and it said I was from the place where I was toured of all these things, like mm-hmm.
• 13:40
  It didn't make any sense.
• 13:40
  It was incorrect.
• 13:41
  So does the importance of grammar become diminished with all these tools?
• 13:47
  We've got AI transcripts that I watch television often watch it while I'm making dinner.
• 13:53
  And so the, those captions are on so that I can read it.
• 13:56
  If you miss it, read, stay through the whole thing because it's all auto generated.
• 14:01
  Does that diminish the importance of learning number in your opinion?
• 14:06
  No, not in my opinion at all.
• 14:08
  We as writers are leaving our fingerprint on the page, and I think there is a place for AI when it comes to writing.
• 14:16
  I'm still trying to reconcile exactly where that is, but it will get clearer and clearer.
• 14:22
  But if we read.
• 14:24
  AI written words and then use them as our own.
• 14:28
  We haven't crafted our writing.
• 14:29
  We haven't really been a critical consumer of ai, so I like to use AI for certain suggestions and ideas and, and things like that, or like, how could I phrase this differently?
• 14:42
  Give me a couple of choices.
• 14:45
  That's helpful.
• 14:46
  That's like having a writing partner to bounce off loud.
• 14:50
  If we don't know grammar well enough, we don't all need to be grammarians, I just wanna say.
• 14:56
  But if we know grammar well enough, we can look at a piece of AI writing and say, is this what I really mean?
• 15:05
  Does this sound like me?
• 15:07
  And sometimes it does, especially when you have an AI that's like gutting everything that it creates for you and the revisions that you want.
• 15:15
  But I still, and I know this will sound probably past that in a year from now.
• 15:20
  I still have never taken something straight from AI because I thought it sounded like me.
• 15:26
  It just doesn't.
• 15:28
  And so, yeah, I mean that's a, that's much broader conversation than, I didn't mean to just throw it in there, but you're late.
• 15:35
  I mean, the is today with AI generated facts that it can only give you the dumbed down version because it's looking for common patterns.
• 15:45
  It's looking for commonalities with all texts.
• 15:48
  So it can't come up with original thought, and it can't come with, if I see this, you know, if somebody's generating, say, fantasy novel.
• 15:55
  It can't tell you the details, like ski over that because it doesn't know.
• 15:59
  It can't make it up, and so it can't create a discerning voice that a human can.
• 16:07
  The predecessor to AI and, and they kind of in this, we could fit on one AI all day.
• 16:12
  I'm happy to do that.
• 16:13
  We should do another, but predecessor to AI is sort of the spell checker, right?
• 16:18
  And so because kids these days growing up in school have access to spellers and things are type ahead, they don't teach, at least in my children's school district, they don't teach spelling anymore, which I was horrified by and made my children learn.
• 16:35
  Oh, and the teachers were saying, well, it's fine.
• 16:38
  They don't need it.
• 16:39
  Right?
• 16:39
  And, and, um, they don't need, spell it.
• 16:41
  They don't need grammar because that will all be corrected.
• 16:44
  And I don't think that that's the case.
• 16:46
  Babi, I think that, um, if, you know, and, and I'm seeing this with writers that come to me that are native English speakers that did, you know, grow up through the school, stand here, the grammar's poor because we're not teaching it because we think it's not important anywhere.
• 17:01
  I don't know if you wanna comment on that.
• 17:02
  Yes.
• 17:04
  I think there's many reasons we're not teaching it.
• 17:07
  I think many of us tell ourselves that it's not important anymore because of these bell checkers and grammar Lees and all different sorts of ai.
• 17:16
  But I also have a theory that.
• 17:19
  Only a few of us learned grammar in the traditional way that the vast majority of us do not know grammar, and it is not our fault.
• 17:28
  It is the methods that were used to teach us that worked for some, like the identification, the diagramming, the worksheet completion.
• 17:38
  That worked for a small percentage of people.
• 17:41
  But I think that there's such shame around grammar sometimes that you know, we have the grammar police, I'm silently correcting your grammar and it just creates a discomfort and a almost fame around how much we don't know about grammar, and I don't think that's useful.
• 18:00
  I don't think that's useful for anyone.
• 18:03
  Adult writers, developing writers in classrooms, and also it's a reason that teachers don't teach it because they're not comfortable with it themselves.
• 18:14
  I, I would say that that really resonates with me, and in fact, in my coaching practice and my editing practice, I work with writers.
• 18:21
  I mean, I've worked with dyslexic writers and neurodivergent writers, and I've also worked with writers with brain damage and writers with, as I mentioned, English as a second, third, fourth, fifth, seventh language.
• 18:32
  And I like to say to them.
• 18:34
  Okay.
• 18:35
  You don't need it because you have a story in you, but that just means that you will need to recognize that you need that support.
• 18:42
  Incidentally, I started school element school in the United States.
• 18:48
  I read very early, I don't talk about this a lot.
• 18:53
  I grew up on the Harvard campus.
• 18:54
  My dad was at Harvard, and so at the time when speed reading was being moed, and so for me, that's how I learned to read, which is superpower.
• 19:02
  It's something I learned when I was four, so you cannot go back necessarily.
• 19:07
  But then I moved to Canada and I had to learn spelling and grammar and all those things, and I think it just made me fascinated by it.
• 19:14
  It wasn't necessarily that I was taught differently, it was just became really intrigued and now I edit in all the different.
• 19:22
  Forms of English, which include, for those of you who are aware, there are different forms of English.
• 19:27
  We spell things differently in Canada and in the UK and in Australia and in the United States.
• 19:32
  And that is because what we talked about earlier on the podcast, which is the evolution and localization and specificity of the language.
• 19:40
  But I just find it really trusting.
• 19:44
  But do you feel like being, you answered part of this question, which is, what would you say to writers intimidated.
• 19:51
  By grammar, I mean, there is no shame and it's not your fault, but that mean that, you know, if you have this sort of black spot in your writing, you wanna get it looked after or work with somebody or figure out how to cover that Doesn't mean that you have to, you know, learn.
• 20:07
  All of you do need to cover that so that your work can be interpreted by the reader in the way that you hope that it will be.
• 20:17
  Yes, entirely.
• 20:18
  And I just wanna back that up with a little story for a second.
• 20:21
  I co-authored this book with Tim Donahue and he's an educator.
• 20:26
  I'm an educator.
• 20:27
  We were working together to write grammar curriculum and I realized that he had a knowledge of grammar that I just never understood.
• 20:35
  But he had a way of explaining things in such a way that like now us grownups, you know, we were all teachers.
• 20:42
  Learning from him were like, now I get because of him.
• 20:46
  Now we co-write this book.
• 20:48
  He is somebody who knows more about grammar than I'll ever know, and I know a lot.
• 20:53
  And then we had our copy editor copy edit it.
• 20:57
  Even though he went through the book multiple times and we still found post-production and error.
• 21:03
  So there really is no such thing as like perfect grammar.
• 21:07
  We get it as perfect as we can, and then people like you and the lovely copy editors in the world, that's your specialty.
• 21:16
  You take that part of the writing process on for us so we can do the other meaty work that gets our thoughts out on the page.
• 21:25
  Absolutely.
• 21:25
  And let me just say that even I do not edit my have editors.
• 21:30
  I have an agent that goes through everything.
• 21:32
  And that's exactly it.
• 21:33
  There's a couple of things there.
• 21:35
  You can't see it in your own writing, and I talk about this a lot.
• 21:38
  You know, we're on the show tell writing podcast, and you have this burden of knowledge, which is the whole concept of show tell and why you can't see it on the pages because you already know the answer, right?
• 21:50
  And the same is true when you're trying to find grammar mistake or spelling mistakes or whatever that might be.
• 21:55
  And proofreading not.
• 21:56
  It is a superpower, don't.
• 21:58
  Do it for other people because there's a lot of people in the world that do that, and I sort of focus on developmental.
• 22:04
  I will, if I see something, especially if it's a missing word or confus, which is like a, A homophone is a word that could have be spelled differently or be the wrong word or the wrong word choice in that spot.
• 22:17
  I still correct them for people because they will see them, right?
• 22:20
  Yeah.
• 22:21
  Right.
• 22:21
  In your own writing, you never see them because your brain knows what you meant to say and so whether or not you said it doesn't matter.
• 22:28
  So, yeah, absolutely.
• 22:30
  That was one of my questions for you.
• 22:32
  You answered a lot of questions there.
• 22:33
  Number one, why did you co-write this book and how'd it go?
• 22:36
  And I think we just talked about that.
• 22:38
  But number two, was there added pressure.
• 22:41
  You are writing a book on Rammer to get it.
• 22:44
  To that reflection level, how did that feel versus, 'cause you've written other books I'm writing before, how did that feel to be writing this book versus other books and and was your editorial process to get it to that level that you knew it had to be at?
• 23:01
  I just took the pressure off myself completely.
• 23:05
  I'm like, I'm part of a team here I am.
• 23:07
  I am the instructional part of the team.
• 23:10
  I'm writing instructional practices that are based on grammar concept, and if I am not a sound at the grammar part of this, that's okay.
• 23:21
  That's why this is a team of people.
• 23:23
  And at first, my first book, that was something I was very concerned about.
• 23:28
  And when it came back with wine edits and copy edits, I was like, oh my gosh, why did that?
• 23:34
  Because that's part of the process and it take the village to really have something that whatever type of writing you're doing that others will read, to do it solo and to never have another set of eyes on it, is missing part of the very important writing process.
• 23:51
  So I just, I wrote the best I could.
• 23:53
  I certainly revised, I certainly edited, but I took the pressure out of being perfect at it.
• 24:00
  I love that.
• 24:01
  And again, you can rely on professionals and it shouldn't be your own eyes.
• 24:05
  I know when, even in the developmental edit, I get this feedback all the time when I send over suggestions and they're like, oh, like I guess I was really hoping, Suzy, that you'd rubber stamp it and say it's perfect, but of course it's not Why I'm like, there's going to be improvement.
• 24:22
  And, and the same is true with grammar because there may always be another way.
• 24:26
  We opened this podcast by saying, keep coming back to it.
• 24:29
  Know your audience or know your readers.
• 24:32
  And when you have a reader, the thing is, is sometimes it may be grammatically correct, but it just may not be landing or there might be different ways to interpret that.
• 24:42
  And so have another set of eyes to, Hey, I didn't really get this, or I had to actually read it three or four times.
• 24:48
  You.
• 24:49
  Adjust it is really helpful.
• 24:52
  Let's church for a minute.
• 24:53
  'cause I, you started off, tell me some examples and I'm gonna put you a little bit on the spot.
• 24:58
  So we talked a little bit about the Oxford comma and that's a really great example of sort of controversial or exciting.
• 25:07
  If you're on team mock or comma, most, most of us are, I don't know why you'd be on the other side to be, I don't know if any grammarian would be on the other side, but I get it.
• 25:15
  But if you tell writers to tackle one thing that you see all the time, what's the most common thing that writers miss that you like if, if you're worried about your grammar, what's one thing that writers listening to this podcast could actually learn and get ahead?
• 25:32
  What's one section or one thing you teach that you wish all writers knew?
• 25:37
  Yes.
• 25:37
  I think that all writers should know how to combine, compose, and expand sentences, right?
• 25:46
  Those are the containers of all parts of speech and the building block the writing.
• 25:51
  You can choose to follow the rules of bins versus clauses and independent clares and and praises, and however you choose to musically create.
• 26:02
  Your writing is up to you.
• 26:04
  If you have the basic foundations of how we can be sure that it's an independent clause or a simple sentence that we can think about how we can combine two to make them a compound sentence.
• 26:16
  How we can combine two simple sentences to create complex sentences, and then even for extra fancy compound complex sentences, if you wanna go there, you know, we use them sparingly, but to have that base knowledge.
• 26:32
  Is so helpful in transcribing, taking what's in here and getting it onto the page, knowing that there are certain frames that we can use to even begin with is writing fluency and it creates a much smoother.
• 26:48
  Writing drafts, which to me maybe you'll agree.
• 26:51
  I find that to be the hardest part of the whole thing is getting the first, first draft.
• 26:56
  I agree.
• 26:57
  I love probably why I'm an editor, but yeah, sentence structure and, and the options available to you.
• 27:04
  And knowing that, especially in novels, we have the ability to break those rules.
• 27:10
  But if you don't understand the rules, and I would say.
• 27:14
  We have the ability to break the rules.
• 27:15
  Sentence fragments is a great, you know, non incomplete sentences.
• 27:20
  Great example.
• 27:21
  You can use emphasis, you can use them for pacing to make it feel urgent.
• 27:25
  You can use it to make it feel sharp.
• 27:27
  You can use it to, for so many different things.
• 27:29
  But if you're using on every single page, in every single paragraph, it loses its value.
• 27:35
  So, you know, like to say to writers, Hey, you can do this, but be sparing where you do it.
• 27:42
  Like you said, those complex compound sentences, you don't wanna have every sentence be huge.
• 27:48
  You want variety.
• 27:49
  And variety is the spice of life.
• 27:51
  Part of the reason I wanted to have you on the podcast as well, thinking matrices.
• 27:55
  And so I've taken sort of writing a book and created these little chunks of information and ways to explain it.
• 28:02
  So I love that you're explaining grammar in a very similar fashion, uh, which isn't how we always learn it.
• 28:08
  But I teach that there are five things on a page that you can use and it doesn't matter what they are.
• 28:13
  I'll list them off really quick about setting actions, reactions, dialogue, and in thoughts or the five tools or the writing elements that you can use.
• 28:20
  And nobody else teaches it this way, but if you are leaning very heavily on one of those things.
• 28:26
  Or a page or more, or even two of those things, it does feel well-rounded because your brain, the reader brain gets tired of reading the same thing.
• 28:34
  If we just have dialogue and nothing in between, they can't.
• 28:37
  They just start skimming.
• 28:38
  I think the same thing is true.
• 28:40
  You're talking about varying the sentence structure.
• 28:43
  If you have the same sentence structure over and over and over again, it's not challenging for your reader and they're gonna sleep.
• 28:48
  So you gotta solve that for them.
• 28:50
  You've gotta make it varied.
• 28:52
  You've gotta make it interesting, make it mix it up so that they don't know always what to accept.
• 28:57
  Would you agree with that?
• 28:58
  I would agree with that a hundred percent.
• 29:00
  And.
• 29:01
  It is some of the most satisfying work as a writer.
• 29:04
  Going back and just simply with the lens of the sentence structure I have used so far.
• 29:10
  Is it conveying what I want it to convey?
• 29:12
  Is it sounding rhythmically the way I want it to sound?
• 29:16
  And I find that really fun.
• 29:18
  I know exactly world by though.
• 29:21
  So I'm gonna throw down here, we did not discuss this in, you might fully, but uh, we're talking about set and structure and it sort of inspires me to talk about paragraph structure.
• 29:31
  Because I think of the things, there are some cheat sheets that I've put over the years, which are hard to find, like the rules on rather for novels, for example, versus just straightforward.
• 29:43
  And we have certain norms in in writing novels and the extent to storytelling in nonfic as well, which don't really exist in formal grammar or academic grammar.
• 29:55
  And one of the things that I existed hard in my many years of teaching writing.
• 30:00
  Is ever giving people rules on when to break?
• 30:03
  Paragraph?
• 30:05
  I don't know.
• 30:06
  To me there are rules that are far and fast and then there is discretion there, and so I've never actually put together a sheet maybe in.
• 30:16
  I need to put our heads together and put cheek, which explains that set of rules.
• 30:21
  What are your thoughts?
• 30:22
  Paragraph spacing.
• 30:23
  That is something that I know exactly what I think.
• 30:26
  I know what I think.
• 30:27
  I know what the roots are.
• 30:29
  I'm not gonna put myself on the spot, but what are your thoughts on paragraph spacing?
• 30:34
  Because it's really important to novels.
• 30:36
  Yeah, and it's a hard one because some of it's discretionary.
• 30:40
  Exactly, and I heard years ago, and I wish I knew the source of this 'cause this is quite a while ago, that for a couple of professional writers, they did a little exercise where they took out all of the paragraphs in their writing for a page, and then they asked those authors to re paragraph the page and it turned out differently than it did when it was published.
• 31:04
  I absolutely believe that.
• 31:06
  Right.
• 31:06
  And yet there are some rules.
• 31:09
  That must happen that I can teach.
• 31:12
  And then there's some that are for yeah, thinking, gosh, I wish I was a fiction writer.
• 31:19
  I would love to try my hands that you can be.
• 31:21
  That'll be your next career there.
• 31:22
  Patty, I love Will help me.
• 31:25
  I'll help you Mul will help me.
• 31:26
  Absolutely help you.
• 31:27
  I am chicken right now.
• 31:29
  But one thing I know too, just because I'm an avid reader, white space on a page is also some craft in there.
• 31:37
  Like when we, yes, the hard and fast rules of, you know, the next person to speak if it's, it's a different paragraph, that sort of thing.
• 31:45
  But also the white space around certain portions, how we slow down the story that we're telling and how important white space can be.
• 31:55
  Absolutely.
• 31:55
  You know, a lot of what I teach, especially on this podcast around show tell, is around emphasis.
• 32:02
  And a lot of times we think that our pacing is too slow and we always wanna speed it up and, and that's true.
• 32:09
  A lot of newer routes have this issue where their pacing is low and they need speed it up.
• 32:14
  But when something is really important.
• 32:17
  And, and there is a balance of show, don't tell.
• 32:19
  You can't show everything.
• 32:21
  You will sometimes be summarizing and the way to learn or chew when you zoom in.
• 32:26
  Take your zoom lens as a camera, and you zoom in and you show us what's happening is in order of infants.
• 32:33
  One of those tools that you could do to slow that pacing down is to put things I like to say in separating for emphasis might be my editor's notes where I'm like, Hey, give this own paragraph and or white space around it.
• 32:46
  And it does is it visually tells your readers pay attention.
• 32:51
  So it might not be more words, but you are, you're separating something, a reaction, a snippet of dialogue, or maybe an action, but something where you just wanna say, take notice.
• 33:02
  Because if it varied in the middle of a paragraph, it might be grammatically correct, but we're just gonna kind of skim past it.
• 33:08
  And especially if you learn to read that I did.
• 33:10
  'cause speed reading means that you read in person sentence.
• 33:13
  Right.
• 33:13
  You could read horizontal like horizontally down the page instead of left.
• 33:18
  And so I've never learned that.
• 33:20
  Wow.
• 33:21
  Yeah.
• 33:22
  Right.
• 33:22
  And it's funny thing is I didn't actually realize that I learned to read that way, but it's just the environment that I was in at the time.
• 33:29
  And the timing right in 19 79, 19 80, that that was all coming to a head and people were experimenting with, and I learned that.
• 33:38
  I learned to read that because that was the environment I was in, and I didn't know that until I became a writer and an editor.
• 33:45
  Which again, not to digress too much, we don't know each other that well, but I was a business executive for 20 years before I quit to do all things writing.
• 33:53
  I'm writing a little on the side, and then it kind of took over, but I didn't know.
• 33:57
  That my superpower of being able to read credibly quickly was because I don't read the way that other people read.
• 34:04
  You know, I tried to teach children to read that way.
• 34:06
  I don't think I even knew that when I was teaching my children to read.
• 34:10
  So they did not get that.
• 34:12
  So.
• 34:13
  I love that.
• 34:13
  Thank you for talking me about paragraph speaking and like I said, we can put our heads together and and put something out that we can Yeah, sure.
• 34:20
  Because I think there are rules and then there is also style and that's one of the ones that I find the hardest to teach.
• 34:26
  'cause it, it feels arbitrary, but it isn't arbitrary or seasons behind all of.
• 34:32
  And as an editor, very careful to explain.
• 34:34
  If you've ever worked with me, then, you know, and for those of you who have never worked with me, if you ever work with me or when you work with me, I never, never make a change without explaining it.
• 34:42
  It is not my opinion.
• 34:44
  If it is my opinion, especially then I will say, Hey, I did this for this reason, so that you can choose whether or not to agree with it.
• 34:52
  Or I say, Hey, this is indirect, and then that means that it's a grammar rule that you broke.
• 34:56
  Then I'm just fixing.
• 34:57
  But a lot of times I will, I will give you an opinion or say, Hey, I'm doing it because I spilled over this and I missed it, and I had to go back and now.
• 35:06
  You know, I gave it its own line so that your readers don't miss it.
• 35:09
  Okay, so this book, as you binge, you're also an educator and you work educators on how to teach this.
• 35:16
  How can writers use this book?
• 35:18
  It wasn't willing, initially intended for writers necessarily, but a really useful tool.
• 35:24
  How can we who are listening to the podcast use this, this book that you and Timothy ever.
• 35:31
  Well, let me share a few ways.
• 35:33
  Number one, you can, first of all, I think reading the first chapter is essential because it helps us reframe the way we think about grammar.
• 35:42
  From like being corrected to just knowing that we can have a different mindset around grammar.
• 35:48
  And then I highly recommend any place that you want to learn more him put together like the Mac daddy of grammar refreshers back here.
• 35:57
  And it's completely understandable.
• 36:00
  And even if it isn't, he's also filmed himself, actually his, his three sons would videotape him in their basement where he put up a dry erase board.
• 36:11
  So he could teach lessons on grammar and on how to use different parts of grammatical.
• 36:17
  There's QR codes, not just one, right, that they're throughout the book where you can actually watch him live, teach this concept.
• 36:26
  I love that.
• 36:27
  I love that.
• 36:28
  It's so innovative because when you buy the book, you're also getting lessons.
• 36:32
  Very, very cool.
• 36:33
  Mm-hmm.
• 36:34
  And because it's that interruptive, would you suggest the ebook is more useful, where the paper copy is more useful?
• 36:40
  Both.
• 36:41
  I dunno.
• 36:42
  Yeah.
• 36:42
  Um, depends, right?
• 36:44
  I, yes.
• 36:45
  If you want to play with your own grammar, learning the secret, if you have the Kindle version, which is wonderful, is definitely going to the companion site and using some of the resources that help you play with grammar.
• 37:01
  Before actually going and writing it yourself.
• 37:03
  So these are like grammar manipulatives.
• 37:05
  So they're just like, one of the things we have are word cards.
• 37:09
  And those word cards have all different parts of speech and endings and punctuation.
• 37:14
  And if you are given like that restraint of using only those cards to create something like a compound sentence, you are isolating that skill and practicing it, but in a playful way.
• 37:26
  So for those who want to go beyond that grammar refresher and the anchor charts of the how tos in here, having that companion site to just play around with grammar is, is very useful.
• 37:43
  Game of gamify it, right?
• 37:45
  Yes.
• 37:45
  I mean, I'm always looking for, many of my hobbies include, I do the New York Times Spelling Bee every morning, and I have this other game I play, which is called Squares, which I don't think anybody else on the planet is, but it's basically Bogle and I don't anything until I finished it.
• 38:03
  Just find every single word possible on this Bogle thing that comes out once a day when it's like, and I used to play Scrabble, though I don't have anybody in my life who is willing to play Scrabble me anymore.
• 38:14
  The answer's gonna beef them every, it's every session, and it's not just because of my command language, but it.
• 38:20
  Also 'cause I'm super competitive and I understand the board and so I just kill the board.
• 38:25
  Like I'm not a fun person to play with because you can't build on anything.
• 38:28
  So I'm, I'm just as much about killing the board and make sure that you've got nothing to play as I am.
• 38:34
  But I was saying gamified, this can actually be really entertaining and you can learn it and you can use those skills.
• 38:42
  As writers, it's funny, I often talk about this myth that people think we're born knowing something, right?
• 38:49
  We're born knowing grammar.
• 38:50
  We're born knowing how to run novel and Hollywood perpetuates this trip for us where we go rent a cabin woods and go away and write it, and then it's this masterpiece and then, then the necking.
• 39:00
  I always say, you're sailing on your yacht 'cause you made so much money.
• 39:04
  It's not true.
• 39:06
  We are not born know how to do this.
• 39:08
  And talking about painter's, paintbrush, you would never trust you.
• 39:12
  Paint the Mona Lisa without first learning about light and structure and all of those things.
• 39:17
  And so these exercises that are in the book, if you know that grammar is a place, I mean, I, I love grammar and I'm gonna go do them, then you need to practice.
• 39:26
  Right?
• 39:27
  And, and the myth that we can write and be perfect without practicing is ridiculous.
• 39:32
  Um, it's like any other fashion.
• 39:34
  The more you practice, the better you're gonna get at it.
• 39:37
  The drafts you're gonna have to write, and the more you are writing what's on your heart is going to resonate with your readers.
• 39:46
  So thank you for creating those tools for writers.
• 39:49
  Can't wait to play with them.
• 39:51
  I did read through the book, but I didn't do the exercises, but I will.
• 39:55
  We've reached the quickfire portion of the podcast, so I have a couple of quick questions for you.
• 40:01
  Are you ready, Patty?
• 40:02
  I keep any other toes ready?
• 40:04
  Are you ready?
• 40:05
  How long did it take you to write your first book?
• 40:08
  My first book, it took me in the actual writing and revising part about seven months, which was two text seven.
• 40:15
  Awesome.
• 40:16
  Too fast.
• 40:17
  Okay.
• 40:17
  That's interesting.
• 40:18
  So then, uh, why do you say it was too fast?
• 40:20
  Well slow down this quick fire because we wanna zoom in for a moment.
• 40:24
  Yes.
• 40:25
  I was working full time out in school districts that were often far away and I set a deadline to have a chapter done every two weeks.
• 40:35
  Wow.
• 40:35
  That's unrealistic.
• 40:36
  Yeah, I've changed my process.
• 40:39
  Yeah, I work with writers who are fast.
• 40:41
  I work with writers who are not fast.
• 40:43
  I've asked this question hundreds of times, and the answer vary and I do find fiction.
• 40:47
  If you are seven months, is wage fast for a first book because you haven't thought through all of the plot points and everything.
• 40:54
  It's just impossible to hold it in your head.
• 40:56
  People can do it after two books usually, but that's because they will have been seeing about that.
• 41:01
  For a very long time before they sit down and plan it.
• 41:04
  But yeah, not action's possible, but when you're balancing lots of other things in life and a career and, and a full-time job at Zuki, for sure, that's very feast.
• 41:13
  Okay.
• 41:13
  What was your first big break along this publishing path where you were like, ha, this is really happening?
• 41:21
  Yes.
• 41:22
  I think it was when my editor came to hear me speak at a writing institute and I did a keynote.
• 41:29
  And for the first time in the publishing industry, somebody listened to my ideas and were impressed.
• 41:36
  Were thoughtful about them and were seeing where this could go before I could.
• 41:40
  I love that.
• 41:41
  Love that.
• 41:42
  And she's become like a big sister to me now.
• 41:45
  Great.
• 41:46
  I love that.
• 41:47
  You know, I feel very, very lucky as well.
• 41:50
  It's very and and lucky that.
• 41:52
  Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
• 41:54
  It's great for me to have somebody on the podcast that I hadn't been working with for a long time.
• 41:58
  And then I hope that we're gonna be working together going forward.
• 42:02
  But has, it does become that, right?
• 42:06
  People who have this common interest and who are supportive.
• 42:09
  I find writers and publishers are some of most supportive people on the planet and the most patient people on the planet.
• 42:15
  And sometimes we come to this industry, we think it's gonna be different and we think it's cutthroat.
• 42:19
  Again, Hollywood, thanks Hollywood, but it really isn't for the most part.
• 42:23
  And those people do become your friends.
• 42:26
  Alright.
• 42:26
  What is your best advice that you would give to writers just starting out?
• 42:32
  I would say that if you're just starting out in terms of having published something, I would say you need to do a lot to get your book out there.
• 42:42
  Yeah.
• 42:42
  I have found, and this might be a little bit different with fiction, but I have found that I need to take the reins in getting the word out there about my books.
• 42:54
  And that's regardless of whether there's, you know, again, with the myths with myth, regardless of whether you're traditionally published or independently published or hybrid published, doesn't matter how you've done it, that is true across the board.
• 43:08
  The only person who can scream from the rooftop so that your book is zoo.
• 43:12
  And those colleagues that make along the way.
• 43:15
  And so talk to as many people as you can about your book and take their reins and be confident, and that's, it's with writing the best book you possibly can that you're super proud of.
• 43:26
  And yeah.
• 43:27
  Where can listeners and writers find you, your books and all the good stuff?
• 43:33
  Well, the best place to find me is my website.
• 43:37
  I have so many resources on there.
• 43:39
  I have links to places where you can buy my book and lots and lots of just, it's just such a rich website.
• 43:47
  I, we've been working on it for so long, so it's patty mcgee.org, but you have to use Patty with a Y because if you go to Patty with an I, that's a skateboarder from the sixties and that's not.
• 44:01
  They sc you.
• 44:02
  I'm not gonna lie, I saw that there was a skater and I was like, oh, maybe that's also, but it wasn't.
• 44:08
  Um, but I think honestly that you are way more cool than any skater because of your love.
• 44:14
  Grindr, thank for being on.
• 44:16
  Thank you.
• 44:17
  Thank, thank you so much, pat, for being on the show today.
• 44:21
  This was really, really fun.
• 44:22
  Hopefully the listeners had fun hearing your grammar as well.
• 44:27
  Thank you for having me.
• 44:28
  Feel like we're old friends, just meeting.
• 44:31
  Love it.
• 44:38
  Thanks for tuning into the show.
• 44:39
  Don't Tell Writing podcast with me, Suzy Vadori.
• 44:42
  It is my absolute honor to bring you the straight goods for that book you're writing or the book that you're planning to write.
• 44:49
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• 44:52
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• 44:59
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• 45:02
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• 45:04
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• 45:16
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• 45:18
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• 45:20
  Submit a page in your current draft for a chance to come on the podcast at the link in the show notes.
• 45:26
  I'd love to chat with you about your writing in my always positive, incredibly supportive way so that you can make great strides to towards your writing.
• 45:35
  I'm here to cheer you on.
• 45:37
  Remember that book you're writing is gonna open doors that you haven't even thought of yet, and I can't wait to help you make that it the absolute best it can be.
• 45:47
  See you again right here next week.