Latest / Parsing the Truth: One Byte at a Time / Premeditation in the Bobby Jo Stinnett Case

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Premeditation in the Bobby Jo Stinnett Case · Parsing the Truth: One Byte at a Time

0:01
Join former FBI Senior Forensic Examiner's Becky Passmore and
0:05
Stacey Eldridge as they dig into the world of digital forensics
0:08
one bite at a time. Now leading their own consulting
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firms and educating the next generation of cyber sleuths,
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these badass babes of digital forensics bring sharp insight,
0:18
real world case experience, and a dose of humor to the bits and
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bites that build today's investigations.
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From deep dives into business e-mail compromise and ransomware
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attacks, Becky's specialty to cracking the complexities of
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iPhone forensics, Stacy's obsession, this podcast delivers
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insider knowledge for professionals, students, and
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true crime techies alike. If you've ever wondered what
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really happens when the digital trail is all that's left, TuneIn
0:42
and start parsing the truth. Welcome back to Parsing the
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Truth One bite at a time. I'm Stacey Eldridge and as
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always, my Co host Becky Passmore is here with me and we
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are diving into digital evidence that cracks cases wide open.
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This is true crime with a tech twist.
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Yes, Becky? What do we have going on
1:09
tonight? Well, we have a special guest
1:12
with us tonight. As you can see, you've hardest
1:14
mention him many times on the show, probably the most common
1:19
person we've mentioned on our show.
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And now he's here to talk about a case he worked that that an
1:26
extremely rare and this that is extremely rare and only happens
1:31
about once a year in the United States.
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So we've got Mark Johnson with us tonight.
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Thanks for being with us, Mark. We're very excited to have you,
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especially since we talk about you all the time.
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That's very nice. Thanks ladies.
1:42
I appreciate him. Thrilled to be on your show.
1:44
Yeah. And before we dive into the
1:46
facts of this case and the evidence, I do want to give a
1:49
quick trigger warning. This case involves fetal
1:54
abduction by maternal evisceration.
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Now, in this case, thankfully the baby survives, but the
2:00
subject of this case had previously discussed some child
2:03
loss as well, and that might come up as we discussed some of
2:06
the evidence. So I just wanted to drop that
2:09
quick warning for our listeners. Yes, I want to make sure that
2:12
you're aware that you know, this is this discussion could be a
2:17
little more detailed in those areas.
2:22
So Mark, for our listener, can you just briefly introduce
2:27
yourself and and you know, just tell them your professional
2:30
background. Sure.
2:31
Well, I started out like a lot of us, as a police officer.
2:35
The same Missouri Police Department was in the field for
2:38
a number of years. I was in the SWAT team for a few
2:41
years. I made Sergeant and I also had a
2:44
kind of side business. I built computers back when
2:46
people really didn't, you know, it was kind of a nerdy thing.
2:48
He didn't tell people he did that stuff.
2:49
It was in the closet, so to speak.
2:51
And so built computers for people, worked on their Internet
2:54
and hooked them up And and 11 particular day I was actually in
2:57
crime scene investigations at the time.
2:59
A Sergeant and homicide said, hey, there was remember that
3:02
homicide we had with those five victims?
3:04
He says, we've got a guy over in Kansas looking at the computer
3:06
this guy had there to see what he was doing on the computer
3:09
while he was waiting for each one of these victims to come in
3:12
over a three day period. He says it's called computer
3:15
forensics. Have you ever heard of that?
3:16
And I said, no, I've never heard of that at all.
3:18
I've been doing computer work for a number of years.
3:20
He goes well. Apparently when you delete
3:22
something off a computer doesn't really go away.
3:25
What mine for that long? Yeah, completely.
3:28
So I found that absolutely fascinating.
3:30
Started digging into a little bit and doing some research and
3:32
realized this computer forensics was huge on the east and West
3:35
Coast, and there was a government sponsored class I'm
3:38
sure you probably went to at the National White Collar Crime
3:40
Center's Basic data recovery course.
3:43
We're all nodding because we all know very well about it.
3:45
And you could go to that if you just got a letter signed by your
3:48
chain of command. So I went to my chain of command
3:50
and I said, hey, this is kind of important.
3:52
I think we're going to start needing to do computer forensics
3:55
here. I've got a computer background.
3:56
I'd like to go to this class. It's free.
3:58
And he was not a computer guy and he was my major.
4:01
And he said, no, we don't. We don't have, we don't have one
4:04
of those. We don't need to do that.
4:06
You just go back to work. Well, I guess I could have done
4:09
that, but it kind of ticked me off, you know, so I called the
4:11
people at NW 3C and they said, listen, if you can get yourself
4:15
out here and pay for your own way and pay for your hotel,
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we'll let you take the class for free.
4:19
Well, I took that class for free and man, again, mind blown.
4:22
It was fantastic intro into, you know, formatting file systems,
4:28
you know, finding data. I just absolutely loved it.
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And so I made a point to go to this same major every couple
4:34
months and say there's this new class coming out and I'd like to
4:37
go to to have him yell at me and tell me to go back to work.
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And after about 8 months, I had three certifications and I had
4:44
built my own forensic computer and gotten some software to do
4:47
forensics. And he screamed at me a couple
4:49
more times and he didn't want me here talking about it.
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But I was actually shown some mercy by the training division
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who let me actually teach a class on computer forensics and
4:57
intro class. And we brought in 60 people from
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a four state region. And shortly thereafter I got to
5:03
start the computer forensics lab at the case Kansas, Missouri
5:05
Police Department. So.
5:06
Yeah, you are all. Yeah.
5:08
And then from there, I end up going to work for a vendor for a
5:12
year, teaching and case as as many of us have used over the
5:14
years. And then from there, I went to
5:16
work for the United States Attorney's office here in Kansas
5:19
City, and it was assigned to the FBI's regional Computer
5:22
Forensics lab. And.
5:24
That's how we got involved. And Becky, you and I have done a
5:27
case together. You know, Stacey, you and I have
5:29
consulted on a number of cases over the years.
5:32
And then I ended up going to work for Kroll, following Becky
5:35
to Kroll. And we had a couple years there
5:37
doing cyber investigations, but it really kind of was at the end
5:40
of my career. So I decided to start my own
5:42
company called Rockridge Forensics.
5:44
I did that for two years and I retired last week.
5:47
I'm done. So that's that's that's in a
5:50
nutshell. That's great, and now you're
5:52
just going to be pickleballing and podcasting.
5:55
And lots of pickleball, little podcasting on my own podcast my
5:59
my own pods, which is just an audio podcast.
6:01
Computer crime Chronicles and fishing.
6:04
Yep, that's it. That's it for me.
6:05
Well, yeah, I forgot the fishing.
6:06
My apologies. Don't forget the fishing.
6:08
Caught a trout today. Good.
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So you're going to start back up on your podcast.
6:12
Yeah, I, I've, I've got a case that's really a good one.
6:15
I talked to Mark Spencer from like, I'm forgetting the name of
6:19
his company right now, but Arsenal.
6:20
Arsenal. Arsenal.
6:22
Yeah, Arsenal, that case, those guys have done a tremendous case
6:26
with some computer evidences off the planet.
6:29
I've got one in the box and you just need to kind of get it out
6:31
now. Great.
6:33
So I'm having. Fun.
6:34
We'll make sure to link to that in the show notes so people can
6:38
check out all the good work you're doing on your podcast as
6:40
well. Sounds great.
6:41
Thank you. Yeah.
6:43
And then so I think you kind of covered you've been a digital
6:46
forensics for a while now as we get started off in this case, is
6:50
there any limits about anything you you can't say or is it all
6:54
on the table here? No, it's pretty much all on the
6:56
table. This, this case has been
6:57
adjudicated, the suspect has been addressed and taken care of
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and that we can get into that as we go through it.
7:03
I don't think there's anything that would keep me from talking
7:05
into any part of it. I may want to be careful or I
7:07
will be careful about how graphic I get because it is a
7:10
very graphic case in some cases, but I want to really focus on
7:13
the forensics and hopefully your audience can get a little bit
7:16
from the forensic analysis I did.
7:17
Yeah. And that's typically how we roll
7:19
on this podcast. We want to focus on the
7:21
evidence, but obviously we've got to give some background of
7:24
the actual crime and you'll be respectful and not make it super
7:29
gory and gross and. No, I may say 11 kind of gross
7:33
thing, but it's part of the story.
7:34
You have to. You have to say it or they
7:36
wouldn't understand so. So why is this case particularly
7:40
significant or instructive from your perspective?
7:44
Well, for me personally, it was probably the most important case
7:48
I'd ever worked. It was a homicide involving a 28
7:50
year old woman. It was forensically fascinating
7:54
because I was able to develop a timeline from all the data I was
7:57
finding, all the artifacts I was finding on the suspect's
8:01
computer, and even identifying who the suspect was was
8:04
something one of my other examiners did by looking at the
8:07
victim's computer. And then of course, when it is a
8:10
homicide, you know you're going to court, you're going to plead
8:13
the many homicides in this case. So I wanted to make sure my
8:15
evidence was solid. I could back up what I was
8:17
saying using testing validation along the way.
8:21
And I think we came out with a really good the product at the
8:23
end and got a conviction so. Yeah.
8:25
OK. Well, Mark, walk us into this
8:27
case. What happened?
8:29
Well, this was the Bobby Jo Stennett murder.
8:31
Bobby Jo Stennett was a 20 year old female from Skidmore, MO.
8:36
No, Skidmore's got a little history of things that happened.
8:39
I'll let the audience take a look at Skidmore sometime if
8:41
they want to. But she lived there with her
8:42
husband, Zeb. They married, obviously.
8:45
They both worked at the Harley-Davidson plant and she
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was 8:00-ish months pregnant with their first child.
8:51
The child. My understanding the child's sex
8:54
was unknown at the time. I don't think they knew it at
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the time. And as a hobby, Bobby Joe and
8:58
Zeb to some degree raised and bred rat Terrier dogs.
9:02
And as part of that they belong to especially Bobby Joe.
9:05
She belong to a rat terrier message board, I think it was
9:07
called Ratter Chatter. But don't hold me to that name
9:10
where she posted many many times to her friends and they had a
9:13
whole community all about raising Rat terriers.
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So on December 5th, 2421 years, almost 22 years ago, Bobby Joe
9:21
received some communication through the message board of a
9:24
woman named Darlene Fisher. Her e-mail was
9:26
fisherforthenumberfourkids@hotmail.com about purchasing a rat terrier
9:32
dog from her because apparently they lived in roughly the same
9:35
vicinity. At one point Bobby Joe said, you
9:38
know, why don't you give me a call, we'll talk and, and Miss
9:41
Fisher said, no, I don't really want to do that.
9:43
I'm not creating the phone. My English isn't good or
9:44
something along those lines. But they made made a an
9:48
appointment for the next day, December 16th, for Miss Fisher
9:51
to visit Bobby Joe and look at the dogs and possibly make a
9:55
purchase. So the message, are these on
9:58
public message boards like everybody could see the back and
10:01
forth of these or was it some sort of like private chat
10:03
situation? You know, I don't know if it was
10:05
strictly a membership and if it was, it wasn't paid.
10:08
It was, it was kind of an open message board.
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I think that you could get on there, become a member and then
10:12
you could post and read posts and go through almost kind of
10:15
like a Facebook message board kind of thing.
10:17
But also. Anybody was in there could see
10:19
the whole conversation going back and forth between them.
10:21
Yes, yes, it was not. You could choose to do private,
10:24
but yeah, a lot of the messages were obviously public and
10:27
readable by everybody. And that came into effect very
10:30
quickly after after the the murder occurred.
10:33
So on December 16th in the, I think around maybe early
10:38
afternoon, Bobby Joe was on the phone with her mother.
10:40
Her mother worked at a convenience store about a mile
10:43
away from her house and she's talked to her.
10:45
She says, oh, I've got to go. You know, they've arrived or
10:47
they're here at the buyers here now.
10:49
So she gets off the phone. Well, her mother doesn't hear
10:52
from her from a couple hours and gets a little bit worried, can't
10:54
get her on the phone. So she comes out of the house
10:56
and when she goes in she's sees an incredible scene, obviously
11:00
very, very bloody scene and Bobby Jo is dead on the floor
11:04
and it appears that her fetus, her baby has been cut from her
11:08
womb. Now that's about as graphics as
11:10
I'm going to get There's there's a lot more that could be said
11:12
here, but I just don't think the audience really needs to to get
11:14
into that part when we're talking about the computer
11:16
forensics as you can imagine, this is December 16th, 2004 huge
11:21
police response. This is kind of a rural area to
11:24
up in skin more small town very quickly.
11:26
They they're gathering information.
11:27
They're they're doing search warrants.
11:29
They actually grabbed Bobby Joe's computer.
11:31
But one of the biggest things was they wanted the local law
11:34
enforcement wanted to put out an Amber Alert for the child.
11:37
Well, Amber Alert said can't do it.
11:40
We don't know what the child is. They didn't they, they just knew
11:43
it was a fetus because they didn't know the sex of the
11:45
child. And a congressman Sam Graves
11:49
from that area stepped forward and said you're going to do it
11:52
basically first time in history. And Amber Alert was sent out
11:56
nationwide from a fetus that they didn't know the sex up,
11:59
which was extremely interesting. But that made headlines really,
12:03
really quickly. Fast forwarded to the morning of
12:05
December 17th. We're getting ready to look at
12:07
that computer, Bobby Joes. And a tip comes in from one of
12:11
the people on the Rat Terrier message board who says, hey,
12:14
this this girl Darlene Fisher made an appointment to see or to
12:18
buy a dog from her, I think, yesterday afternoon.
12:22
And they said, OK, it's very interesting.
12:24
Well, so Jeff Owen, who's just walking in the door, basically,
12:27
he's a detective for the State Highway Patrol, and he's part of
12:30
the RCFL. You remember Jeff?
12:31
Yeah, funny guy, good guy. He looks at Bobby Joe's
12:35
computer, does the search for Darlene or Fisher of that kind,
12:38
and ends up finding a number of cached web pages.
12:42
Every single post is cached in the HTML web page, which is
12:45
fantastic for him. And he finds these, and he finds
12:48
the one where she's talking about getting with Bobby Joe,
12:51
about this dog. And each one of those posts is
12:54
tagged with an IP address. OK, Mark, do you want to tell
12:57
our listeners what a cached web page is?
12:59
Sure. So when you're online and you're
13:02
browsing, you go to sailboats.com and you're looking
13:04
at sailboats. Every page that comes up is
13:08
actually saved to your computer in some form so that if you want
13:11
to get back to it quickly, it doesn't have to go back to the
13:14
Internet and then come back down and look at it and download it
13:16
each time. So it's cached to your local
13:18
computer or saved to your local computer in a temporary folder.
13:21
And then when you sit, click back, boom, it comes up right
13:24
away. So it's the speed thing for for
13:26
the user. So this these cache web pages
13:29
were great because they had these posts.
13:30
Now this IP address and IP address is an Internet Protocol
13:33
address. Basically a telephone number for
13:35
a computer can be found out where you know what it belongs
13:40
to or who leased it. So law enforcement, the FBI and
13:43
local law enforcement contact the service provider for the
13:46
Internet in the area and they say, here's what we've got,
13:50
we're going to send you a subpoena, but we really need
13:52
this information quickly. And that service provider was
13:55
not really law enforcement friendly up to this point for
13:57
months. We always had a hard time
13:59
getting information from them. You know, there's always stall
14:01
tactics or whatever you want to call it, but right off the bat,
14:04
they said not a problem, here's the information, send me the
14:07
subpoena when you can. They obviously recognize the
14:09
importance of this. They sent us the lessee of that
14:12
IP address and it came back to a Kevin Montgomery in Melbourne,
14:15
Kansas. OK.
14:16
So now local law enforcement, they're investing in the case
14:19
along with the FBI task force who's on the case.
14:21
They respond to Kevin Montgomery's house.
14:23
In a different town. In Melbourne, Kansas.
14:26
Then the Darlene. Yeah, yeah, though Darlene
14:29
Fisher at this point has not said where she's from, just as
14:32
she was lived around the area of of Skidmore.
14:35
So we don't know if that's even true basically.
14:37
But there's a little bit of, I think I've got to.
14:39
We'll address that briefly here later on.
14:42
But when they get there, they find Lisa Montgomery holding a
14:45
newborn baby. And one of the agents goes, hey,
14:47
can I see your baby? You know, and OK takes the baby
14:50
side and another agent and police officer.
14:53
Detectives start talking to her. And it's evident very quickly
14:57
that she's kind of not telling the truth.
14:59
I mean, when did you have the baby?
15:01
Oh, I just had yesterday. We're here at home.
15:04
At home. That's kind of strange.
15:06
And sometime during that conversation, she actually said
15:08
she had discarded the placenta out in the woods.
15:10
Well, this wasn't making any sense at all.
15:12
About this time, her husband's parents are pulled up the
15:17
driveway. When Bobby or when Lisa
15:20
Montgomery sees them, she panics and says, Get Me Out of here.
15:23
Just Get Me Out of here. I'll tell you what you want and
15:25
all to just Get Me Out of here. So OK, they great, they go.
15:28
They're going to do a voluntary talk with her.
15:31
And basically by the end of the night, she gives a confession of
15:35
sorts of what she did of this case.
15:38
Right now we've got something. They obviously arrest her.
15:40
They hold her on that at the time.
15:42
And then my job starts. So I got the computer.
15:46
I was assigned the computer literally I think that day or
15:49
the next day on Lisa Montgomery's Apple iMac.
15:53
Remember the old iMacs that are all one piece with a different
15:56
color shells? That's what it was back when
15:59
Netscape Navigator browser was still popular and Internet
16:03
Explorer had just started being released.
16:06
So yeah. And so you've got 2.
16:09
We've had two different woman's names right on the message for
16:12
we saw a Darlene Fisher. But then you go to this house in
16:15
a different town from the victim, and her name is Lisa
16:19
Montgomery. Correct.
16:20
So the IP address came back to Kevin Montgomery or the house?
16:24
Lisa Montgomery's holding the baby.
16:26
Yeah. And.
16:26
Then she just she says, take me with you.
16:29
Yeah, So I guess I can tell you this.
16:32
There was some pictures that we recovered from, I believe.
16:35
I don't think it's from the computer.
16:36
I think it was from a digital camera of the day before the
16:40
police got there. So the 16th, the day of the
16:42
murder, Lisa Montgomery with the baby in her lap and she's
16:45
reading some kind of a paper letter, and you can see there's
16:49
something under her fingernails. And you zoom in and it was Bobby
16:52
Jo's blood on her fingernails. So, yeah, just so your audience
16:57
knows, the baby completely healthy.
17:00
The only thing wrong with this baby that Lisa Montgomery had no
17:03
skill, no background training and nursing, nothing, and was
17:06
able to get that baby without damaging except for one small
17:09
scratch on one eyelid and that's it.
17:12
Beautiful little baby. Yeah.
17:13
So that was amazing in and of itself.
17:15
So then obviously, considerations on my point here,
17:18
I'm going to have to do a forensic analysis.
17:20
I'm going to try to develop this timeline, try to answer the
17:23
questions being asked me by prosecuting attorney, of which
17:27
they were federal. They decided to go federal on
17:29
this case. The federal attorney was the US
17:31
attorney was very high on doing this case and it was going to be
17:34
a death penalty case. Which was, and that's because it
17:36
crossed the state line. Right, because across state
17:39
lines, that's exactly right, Becky.
17:40
So I felt obviously the weight of that, you know, if I'm going
17:43
to go in and do this, I'm going to make sure I dot all my IS and
17:46
cross all my T's and stuff. But I'm very interested to get
17:49
in this. So obviously I make a image,
17:51
forensic image of the of the hard drive.
17:53
And even during my analysis of this, of course, analysis took
17:56
at least a month like I can recall at this point being 21
18:00
years ago or so, because I wanted to do as much as I could
18:04
and as accurate as I could. So I even bought an iMac
18:08
computer off of eBay for $10 and then I restored the forensic
18:14
image I had created to another hard drive and placed it in that
18:17
just so I can not only do the forensic analysis using my tools
18:21
in case, you know, Internet Evidence Finder and all those
18:24
tools, but I could also see what she saw by booting the computer
18:27
live without ever touching or changing the original evidence.
18:30
So that was a big help as well as we move forward throughout
18:33
this investigation. Did you make any exhibits for
18:36
the trial from like having that ability to boot up her heart?
18:40
I don't think I did. I don't think I did, Stacey,
18:43
because it just, I mean, the forensic analysis, the artifacts
18:46
were so good. I didn't have to.
18:48
Yeah. But for me, it was nice just to
18:50
see it the way she saw, just in case I missed something or
18:53
something did pop out extraordinary they'd want to
18:56
see. Yeah.
18:59
So what was important for me initially was obviously Internet
19:02
history. We had Internet history and we
19:03
wanted to be able to see that. I did a couple searches.
19:07
I don't remember what they were for, most likely Darlene or
19:09
something like that, to pull back Internet history.
19:12
And what I found was hundreds and hundreds of the exact same
19:17
Internet history entry. So let's say on today's date at
19:20
the 7th at 1555 hours you went to chevy.com.
19:26
I found a hundred entries exactly that entry.
19:30
And so I had to actually have a special end case script created
19:34
to run that to cover recover all the allocated and all the
19:38
unallocated space. And it was the output was
19:40
enormous. So I couldn't put it into Excel
19:43
because they only do like a million lines or 650,000 lines
19:46
at the time. So I ended up, we ended up
19:48
hiring a guy who was good with Access to take that history and
19:51
then filter town to just one of each actual entry, which brought
19:57
that size down a lot. But it gave me the timeline
19:59
from, you know, even prior to 2004, all the history in the
20:04
history they had found. So then the question becomes,
20:06
and they didn't want to get caught flat footed, why did the
20:09
Internet history get saved this way?
20:11
Yeah. Why was it in there 100 times if
20:13
they just went to the website one time?
20:14
Yeah. So I wanted to have maybe.
20:16
They went there, you know you. Knew enough did they did they go
20:19
there? Is this from something else?
20:20
You know, it's all those questions you have to answer, so
20:23
got. To be prepared.
20:24
Me and another examiner at the lab.
20:26
Very, very smart guy, way smarter than me.
20:28
Just started that. We talked about it a lot,
20:30
started doing a little research and then started looking in a
20:33
little testing. We looked into the Apple
20:36
formatting, which at the time I think they were using B tree
20:39
formatting. Now it's not important for the
20:41
audience. What's B tree?
20:43
The point about Apple was try not to have fragmented files.
20:48
So if I write a Word document or I make a picture or I do a
20:51
movie, you don't want it to exist in cluster 4, cluster 10,
20:54
cluster 100, cluster 2000. You want it to be because if it
20:57
does that, your read head on, your computer has to go to all
21:00
those locations to bring back one video 1 document and it
21:03
takes longer. So Apple was really good about
21:06
wanting all their stuff to be sequential.
21:09
Cluster 2 to cluster 600 is all index history.
21:12
So they're very careful about that in doing so.
21:15
What they'd end up doing then is let's just say in the inner
21:18
history at this point was Internet Explorer.
21:20
So it was an index DAT file. And if you remember the old
21:22
days, folks are all of our index DAT files and our Internet
21:25
history. That was the file that saved
21:27
Internet history. So let's just say it's 10 Meg,
21:31
right? And you're typing away and
21:32
you're using the Internet, and then you shut your computer down
21:35
or close the browser and then you come back the next day and
21:38
you bring it back up. The first thing that Apple does
21:41
or the computer does is says, OK, they want to get an Internet
21:44
history. Let's see where it's at.
21:46
Is there any place to grow on the backside of it?
21:48
Is there open clusters on the backside to put stuff?
21:51
If it doesn't find what it thinks is enough area to grow,
21:54
it takes the entire index dot that copies in it into a new
21:57
location on the hard drive that does have area to grow and then
22:01
deletes the first copy. But by delete, we don't mean get
22:05
rid of, we just mean mark it by deleted.
22:09
It's still there. We're just going to ignore it
22:10
like it's not there. OK.
22:12
And so that's what happened. Every time they shut down in
22:15
their history, it would come back up the next time they
22:18
brought it up and it would make a duplicate.
22:20
And so it just keeps growing and growing in in an allocated
22:23
space, which is why I had all these hundreds and hundreds of
22:26
the exact same entries. So that was kind of a nice
22:28
little hurdle to get over rather quickly.
22:30
Questions at this point, I'm good.
22:32
OK, I'm going to kind of look at my little CHEAT SHEET over here
22:35
too. So some of the best data I
22:37
found, again, looking at that timeline feature was found in
22:40
e-mail. I left the e-mail at the
22:42
pictures, Internet history, keyword searches, things like
22:45
that. But e-mail turned out by and
22:47
large to be probably the, the biggest thing I was able to find
22:50
information on. So one of the first questions I
22:52
had was how did Lisa Montgomery know Bobby Justin was pregnant?
22:57
Well, I found an e-mail, I think I actually think it was a
23:01
deleted e-mail and where it talks about here we are at
23:06
Abilene KS dog show, everybody showing their dog and then
23:10
listing Lisa Montgomery's name and her daughter's name and then
23:13
some other people's name and then Bobby Justin it's name and
23:16
then Zeb's name. And then I found an unallocated
23:19
space very close to that, an actual picture.
23:22
And so I pulled out then recovered that picture and sure
23:24
as heck there they all listed in that.
23:26
Well, that was from Abilene. Can't Abilene.
23:29
This is 2004 in April. Well, if you do the timeline,
23:34
you know it's roughly 8 months till the murder took place.
23:37
So we believe that she actually, that was probably when she found
23:40
out she was letting people know she's pregnant first child.
23:43
They usually let no, they don't usually wait a whole lot of
23:45
times they just say we don't know that for a fact, but we
23:47
believe that was the time that Lisa Montgomery found that out.
23:50
Also at the same time as Lisa Montgomery is at that dog show,
23:53
because she's also part of this rat terrier message board that
23:57
Bobby Justin spends a great deal of time on with her dogs and
24:00
marketing and them and talking about them, stuff like that.
24:03
So they they know each other from there.
24:05
She obviously loves Lisa Montgomery.
24:07
She doesn't know she's Darlene Fisher obviously at this point,
24:10
but that's kind of where the timeline starts is that Abilene
24:12
Kingstog show. Being able to find that picture
24:15
is really, really cool. So we also found an e-mail, or I
24:18
should say I found an e-mail where she had least Lisa
24:21
Montgomery signed up for pampers.com.
24:24
OK, so and a whole bunch of other things leading one to
24:28
believe she was pregnant. Well, the problem with Lisa
24:31
Montgomery is she was always pregnant, but they're all fake.
24:36
We had, I think we documented 7 different false pregnancies that
24:39
she said she had. It became from people.
24:42
What they were saying is that she liked the attention.
24:44
She really liked the attention that people would shower on or
24:46
when while I'm pregnant with, oh, you're pregnant.
24:48
Oh, you're thing, you know, and she'd get all the, the talk
24:50
about how great it was to be pregnant and things like that.
24:52
But there was always an excuse at the end.
24:54
Well, we lost the baby due to an RH disease or I had a
24:57
miscarriage or something else. So there's a lot of emails where
25:01
she was getting where she was talking to people from the rat
25:04
terrier message board post just telling myself to calm down to
25:08
keep my baby, come, Oh, you're pregnant.
25:10
And then the conversation was sued about babies and things
25:13
like that. Found a lot of those emails back
25:15
and forth. The important part about that
25:18
was is she she says she's pregnant.
25:21
We know she's not pregnant. Why does she need a baby now?
25:24
What was the why? What was the big push, why we
25:27
needed the baby right now? Well, she was divorced.
25:29
She had, I think, two children of her own teenagers, one older,
25:33
one younger. And she was divorced with her
25:35
husband. Can't remember his name off top
25:37
of my head, but he, she'd been kind of messing with them on the
25:40
child's on the visitation. He lived in a different town,
25:45
maybe hour, hour and a half away.
25:46
He'd make arrangements to come see the kids on a day or pick
25:50
them up. He'd come there.
25:51
The house would be locked up. Nobody'd be home.
25:54
He'd call her on the phone. She wouldn't answer.
25:56
You know, he'd finally end up leaving.
25:57
And then she'd call him later and say, well, why didn't you
25:59
come pick up the kids? You know?
26:00
And he did. And I just, the frustration of
26:03
playing that game kind of ticked them off.
26:06
So I found an e-mail from him to her where he says, how would
26:10
Kevin, his parents or the community react when they find
26:13
out that you were never pregnant and that you have lied about so
26:16
much to so many? You have to prove it documents,
26:19
false documents will be a felony.
26:21
It will feel like the whole world is coming down on you.
26:24
That is enough to allow the kids to stay with me.
26:26
This would be good. You know, premeditation as to
26:30
why she needed a child right now.
26:33
Also, the community was not kind of buying her stuff anymore
26:37
because she'd say she's pregnant.
26:39
They get excited and then no baby would materialize.
26:41
So they started doubting that as well.
26:43
But with this particular one, the question rose, well, how did
26:46
he know she wasn't pregnant? He was there when she had her
26:49
tubes tied. I don't know what the official
26:51
word of that is, not tubal ligation or whatever it is right
26:53
now, but she can't have kids. And he was there when it
26:56
happened, so he knew that she didn't do it.
26:58
Now, this could have been enough impetus for her to I, I got to
27:01
show up with the kid now. And so, so then she starts
27:04
playing the game of I'm pregnant.
27:06
In one particular photo she sent to one of the other message
27:11
boards she was on, she and her husband had gone to the
27:13
Renaissance Festival and he was sitting in the chair with the
27:15
King's hat on and she's in the Queen's outfit and she's
27:18
literally leaning over like 10° like I am right now.
27:21
But in the caption she says real difficult to bend, bend over
27:25
when you're this much pregnant. It's hard on me.
27:27
Well, she I've been with pregnant women.
27:29
My wife was a pregnant woman at one time.
27:30
You can bend over 10° and you're not really stressing anything.
27:33
So it just seemed like there was always a the motive behind the
27:37
e-mail was to get people to pay attention to her.
27:40
So that was that was quite interesting when that happened.
27:44
Questions. Good, excellent.
27:47
We'll grab a little quick here. So one of the other things I
27:49
found that I found fascinating, probably one of the best things
27:52
in this case was she had been showing or reported to me that
27:56
she had been showing an ultrasound around town of her
27:59
child. So I started looking through all
28:01
the pictures again, an e-mail in unallocated space.
28:04
Was it an e-mail? I think it was an e-mail or
28:06
maybe it's just a picture, A picture in unallocated space of
28:09
an ultrasound and it had a name on it and it was not Lisa.
28:13
Lisa Montgomery. In the lower left corner,
28:15
however, I found an almost identical ultrasound almost in
28:19
the same proximity and in the lower corner that other name had
28:23
been changed in a very bad graphic modification software.
28:26
I'm not sure what they were using.
28:27
A black box with Lisa Montgomery and then her local hospital in
28:31
it with a completely different font that didn't look different
28:33
than all the other fonts on the screen showing an ultrasound.
28:37
And so I thought, well, that's really interesting.
28:39
So luckily I was able to do a little bit more work.
28:42
And just after that file again, B Tree was so good.
28:45
It was keeping the attachments, the e-mail, the metadata from
28:49
the printing it all in the same area.
28:51
Well this I just had for the picture.
28:53
It makes it all together like you did this.
28:54
It's beautiful. Yeah, I'm able to kind of just
28:56
look in this right. It's this whole timeline thing,
28:59
so. But the great part was this
29:01
graphic or this information I pulled out in very formatted
29:05
text of like an EMF file. Remember the enhanced meta files
29:08
we found when we printed the document that said it printed?
29:10
This was like an early enhanced meta file.
29:13
It had the printer who was in Epson.
29:14
It had the user who was logged on Lisa Montgomery.
29:17
It even had the date I think and it also had the name of the
29:21
picture that was being printed well.
29:25
Good stuff. I won't say the name of the
29:27
picture, just to protect the people whose originally picture
29:29
this was, but I found them. Let's just call it my my babies
29:33
ultrasound dot JPGI. Did a search on the Internet for
29:36
my babies ultrasound dot JPGI Found a hit on the Wayback
29:40
Machine which is archive.org which for those of you who don't
29:44
know stores old versions of web pages that companies have.
29:48
So you may have a company that's been around for a year, may have
29:51
10-15 different backups and behind the company been around
29:54
for 20 years, might have hundreds of different backups of
29:56
their, of their websites. And sometimes you see the
29:59
information, sometimes you don't.
30:01
Well, in this particular one, it didn't have the picture, but it
30:03
had the picture name on it and stuff.
30:05
And it had obviously the person's website.
30:08
It was that person just happened to work for the United States
30:10
Attorney's office in a different city.
30:12
So I called him. I called him up on the phone,
30:14
said what's this ultrasound? That's my wife's ultrasound.
30:17
We put him on our web page, you know, if our families could see
30:19
and everything else. I said, do you still have the
30:22
picture? He said yeah, he sent me the
30:24
picture. I MD5 hashed that picture and it
30:27
matched the same unmodified one I found on Lisa Look Over's
30:31
computer. So I was able to show that she
30:33
went out, found that picture through a search and put it on
30:36
here and then modified it with her own information, printed it,
30:39
and then was shown around town the picture of her ultrasound.
30:41
Yeah, yeah. I think that's great.
30:43
Go in the extra step and be like where I don't know where it came
30:46
from. Let me let me see if I can find
30:48
out where it came from. Yeah, yeah, it was.
30:51
It was really, really cool. It really hasn't.
30:52
Used an open source right? Like just using the Internet to
30:56
look for it. That's right.
30:58
The Wayback Machine, I mean, I'm not even sure a lot of people
31:00
who, for instance, examiners know about the Wayback Machine,
31:02
but it is awesome to find stuff. You want to know that for a
31:06
website that maybe it doesn't have the information that you
31:08
think it should have or had at one time or you know, whatever
31:11
it's, it's, it's a great tool though, or like using and again,
31:14
open source. We talked about how it was a
31:16
missed opportunity that they didn't use it during the Casey
31:19
Anthony trial to show some of the stuff she was looking at.
31:21
In terms of exhibits, that's a very astute observation, Stacy,
31:26
that you always were the smart 1, so.
31:28
Oh well, thank you. OK, so let's see, I got that
31:33
done. Another part of this case it was
31:35
interesting is Kevin Montgomery was kept completely in the dark
31:39
by her. He'd want to go to doctor's
31:42
visits with her. I've got doctor visit.
31:44
Well, I'll take the day off. I'll go with you.
31:46
An extremely nice guy. Even during the trial, he'd come
31:49
out in the hall and he was smile.
31:50
He'd nod his headaches and smile.
31:52
Just a really good guy, you know.
31:54
But she kept him completely in the dark.
31:55
She was a master manipulator in my opinion and other opinions of
31:59
people I know. And she she would say, well, you
32:03
know, I'm not feeling good this morning, so I don't think I'm
32:04
going to go. So you can go to work.
32:06
Well, he'd go to work and they'd come home.
32:08
And she says, well, I started feeling better.
32:09
So I went into the head, the doctor's office, everything's
32:11
fine. And then she produced fake
32:14
doctor's papers that she downloaded off the Internet and,
32:17
you know, signed a fake doctor's name and stuff and show him to,
32:20
you know, kind of. So it really bothered him that
32:22
he didn't get to kind of, you know, enjoy it, being part of
32:25
it. But we found, we found a lot of
32:28
that kind of stuff where she was always keeping him in the dark
32:30
about something and he wanted to be involved and she just
32:32
wouldn't let him be involved, obviously, because she's not
32:35
really pregnant. So there is no doctor visits.
32:38
We talked about the ultrasound. Another thing that was quite
32:41
interesting was the the keyword searches that she did that I was
32:45
found out. We know even today looking at
32:47
keyword searches is looking right through their window of
32:50
their living room to see what people are doing stuff.
32:52
We love keyword searches to really takes you into the mind
32:55
of the person you're investigating.
32:57
She did searches for and this is again over roughly an 8 an 8
33:01
month period and you can almost see the timeline of what she's
33:03
thinking unassisted home birth, emergency C-section.
33:07
She actually tried to view AC section video, but we don't
33:11
think her download speed was good enough.
33:13
She could she didn't actually view the video that we could
33:14
tell, but she tried to emergency C-section, 26 week home birth
33:20
ultrasound, teen week ultrasound, twin 4 month.
33:24
Now that was interesting. We did not know it, but some of
33:28
the people she talked to, we didn't know it from the
33:30
beginning. Some of the people she was
33:31
corresponding with, she told me she was having twins and others
33:34
she'd say she was just having a single baby.
33:37
So that always got us figuring out.
33:38
We never actually found any evidence of it.
33:40
Was she also looking at another web twins?
33:42
I mean, was that part of this as well?
33:44
We didn't know. We didn't find evidence of it,
33:46
but that was kind of interesting to see that ultrasound twins, 16
33:49
week. Oh, and by the way, that whole
33:50
twin thing comes up again in the e-mail I'll rate here toward the
33:53
end Registering birth to know how to register birth.
33:57
Oh yeah. Pitocin and oxytocin, those are
34:01
those are drugs that assist in bringing on labor.
34:04
She looked for those as well. And then she also searched for
34:07
blocking number caller ID, which will become apparent here as we
34:10
get towards the date of the the actual homicide.
34:13
So it was very interesting like so piercing this together in a
34:16
timely that I could document that I could then testify in
34:19
court. But one of the one of you know,
34:23
you always look at the stuff and you think premeditation is a
34:25
premeditation is a premeditation.
34:27
So one of the emails that I thought really highlighted this
34:30
most is an e-mail that I found and I think it was, I think it
34:33
was allocated, but I don't remember for sure.
34:36
But the e-mail went out to a number of people and I'm just
34:39
going to read it. I had doctor visit this morning.
34:42
Some of you may remember we lost a daughter at birth about a year
34:45
and a half ago due to a stream RH disease as well as other
34:48
complications, this time with two.
34:51
While I get to visit doc quite often, blood teeter tests have
34:55
become the norm. I've made it to term but it
34:57
faced the possible loss of one of the babies.
34:59
So this is the people who think she's having twins.
35:03
We have known for some time but it was made real this morning
35:06
with only one heartbeat. Ultrasound confirmed this soon
35:09
after. We could have delivered before
35:11
now but time was being granted for remaining baby to grow
35:14
stronger as they were both very small.
35:16
I know nothing else could be done that my doctors have not
35:18
already considered. Never went to a doctor.
35:22
I am to go in tomorrow for medication to ripen my cervix
35:25
and then if if nothing on Thursday they will induce.
35:28
Thursday was the day of the homicide so premeditation.
35:33
Right, just going to have a baby on Thursday.
35:36
Yeah, not delivering pretty bad on Thursday.
35:40
Yeah, that was, that was a biggie, obviously.
35:43
And of course I'm documenting this.
35:45
I'm keeping the US attorney involved in the case up to speed
35:47
on the entire thing as we go through.
35:49
So at this point, we're we're kind of down to how is Internet
35:53
history going to play out into the end end part of this
35:56
investigation. One of the questions the
35:58
assistant US attorney on the case said, hey, you found this
36:01
all this deleted Internet history.
36:03
Can we prove she deleted it? Or is it just like there's a
36:07
setting that automatically gets rid of it after 30 days?
36:09
I go, you know, that's a really good question.
36:12
In the end, I could not find a setting in Internet Explorer
36:16
that showed that it was 1st after 30 days or whatever else.
36:20
But what's really cool is the last three days I could tell you
36:24
what was deleted because she was selectively deleting Internet
36:28
history as it applied to certain things.
36:30
The creation of the Darlene. Exactly.
36:34
So I had two spreadsheets, one with allocated and one with
36:37
unallocated and allocated. And as you look through them, as
36:41
you're going through them, all of a sudden she deleted.
36:44
Any reference to the creation of the Darlene Fisher Hotmail
36:47
account? Did find that in unallocated
36:49
space, though, and, you know, deleted it was there.
36:51
She deleted all the reference from that on the 15th, the day
36:54
before the murder. She also did a search for
36:57
Fairfax, MO, which is kind of in the area I'm told of Skidmore.
37:01
And so she she deleted a search for that area.
37:05
I think she's maybe looking for directions or something, I don't
37:07
know. But she deleted that.
37:09
And I think there was one of the things she deleted.
37:12
Oh, references to blocking caller ID.
37:14
So when she had that type conversation with Lee, with
37:19
Lisa, I'm sorry, Bobby just sent it.
37:22
And Bobby said once, just call me.
37:23
And she made an excuse. She was searching for blocking
37:26
caller ID. And so those references were
37:29
deleted too. And again, everything else was
37:31
there. There was history after these
37:34
and before him, but those selected things were deleted.
37:37
So absolutely that that's, that's knowledge, that's intent.
37:41
That's right. Absolute intent, no questions.
37:43
So that was pretty, it was pretty interesting as well.
37:46
The last part of this wasn't really a forensic thing, but it
37:48
was very interesting. I thought I'd include this.
37:50
The defense wanted to use the defense of what's called
37:53
pseudociasis. Have you ever heard that term
37:56
pseudociasis is a condition where a woman believes they're
38:01
pregnant even though they're not, but believes it's so much
38:03
that they actually manifest, manifest itself in physical
38:06
form. They can actually have, you
38:08
know, stop having periods. They can distended belly almost
38:12
like they actually are pregnant, but it's it but they truly
38:15
believe it in their minds. I guess it would be a mental
38:17
condition in some cases. I'm not a doctor, but so they
38:20
wanted the the prosecution want to be able to obviously.
38:23
Is there anything we can do knock that off that that's not
38:26
the case. Well, I didn't find it
38:28
forensically. However, the defense gave a
38:30
stack of paperwork to them, you know, because of the discovery,
38:33
a stack of paperwork and books and articles to the US attorney
38:37
and said we may use something in there.
38:39
That was the discovery on this particular thing.
38:41
We assigned AUS attorney to look through every frickin document
38:44
and piece of paper in there and they found a job application
38:48
from a few months prior to this where it said are you pregnant
38:52
and she said no so can't you pseudosaesis then that's.
38:56
Even better, because they could have made the argument because
38:59
of her mental state, she blocked out the fact that she knew she
39:03
had her tubes tied. Yeah, that document that they
39:06
found would negate that. Yeah, I mean, it really was
39:09
great. The other thing that was quite
39:11
interesting was they want to be careful about what I say here.
39:14
She had a brother, OK? And the defense wanted to make a
39:17
case that the brother did this. He was along with her, he did
39:21
the he did the the crime kind of thing.
39:25
And they actually kind of went whole hog with that at one
39:28
point. The interesting part was.
39:31
Was that during the trial or like during?
39:33
You know the before the trial. Before the trial, OK.
39:35
Yeah, before the trial. Yeah, definitely before the
39:37
strategizing. Except the one thing that worked
39:40
against them was after they took that giant step forward to say
39:43
certain things, was he and her hated each other.
39:47
She couldn't, she couldn't stand her brother.
39:49
And she has multiple conversations, emails about how
39:53
she can't stand her brother. I don't know if she had a order
39:55
of protection against or anything, but she couldn't stand
39:57
her brother. That coupled with the fact that
40:00
he was in his, the office of his probation person at the same
40:05
time this was going on. Yeah, that's not going to work.
40:08
That's a pretty. Rock solid alibi.
40:10
Yeah, he had pretty good alibi, so that never caught fire
40:13
either. The the nicest thing that could
40:17
have been said about me was actually during cross
40:19
examination of the forensic expert on the other side.
40:22
He's he's a good guy. That's one of those forensic
40:25
guys for the fence I really respect.
40:27
It's still true to this day. I know him pretty well on cross
40:29
examination by the prosecutor to him about my report, because he
40:33
had opine on my report. She says you reviewed Mr.
40:36
Johnson's analysis and he said yes.
40:38
He says did you find that he made any errors in this
40:40
analysis? No, I didn't.
40:41
Did you find that he left any omissions or anything else you
40:44
find? No, I didn't see that.
40:46
In fact, did you see anything wrong with this report at all?
40:49
And he said no. And she says no further
40:50
questions. You know, I thought that's all
40:52
right. I'm OK.
40:53
That's that's why I'm hired and that's why I consider important.
40:57
I don't want to make mistakes. I want to provide the truth just
40:59
like you 2 do. And all of the examiners that I
41:02
know always are about the truth. We're not trying to make stuff
41:05
up. We're just trying to say the
41:06
truth and have it presented in the court of law like we're
41:08
trained. So that was kind of a, a nice
41:10
thing to be heard in, in court. So right ended up testifying for
41:15
about six, 6 1/2 hours. And then she was, she was found
41:18
guilty, obviously, and she was sentenced to death.
41:21
And that was carried out I think a year or two ago, I'm not sure
41:26
the date. So she sat there on death row
41:27
for like. Yeah, she, she and they came out
41:30
with her last minute, please. For one thing else, her roommate
41:33
said she was a very nice person, such a sweetheart and all that
41:37
stuff. But in the end, the governor did
41:38
not give her stay, and she was, I think, the first woman
41:42
executed since 1953. So the federal level, yeah,
41:46
that's my story. That's fantastic.
41:49
And I remember you telling this to my class, the story to my
41:54
class, and I believe it was in 2022.
41:57
And the very next week or the very next month is when she was,
42:02
you know, she, you know, they took, yeah, executed it, you
42:06
know, for her conviction. So yes, yeah, yeah, it was, it
42:10
was a sobering case. I was, I was glad I was afforded
42:13
the opportunity to examine it. And and like I said, as you're
42:16
getting into that evidence and you're piercing it all together
42:18
and finding things just like this is what computer, for
42:20
instance, is about. You go the extra step when you
42:23
can try to get that information. And I mean, I've and I've told
42:26
you guys this for 100 years. You know, people kind of poo poo
42:29
unallocated space sometimes and SSDs don't keep unallocated
42:32
space nearly as well, but you can still find stuff.
42:36
And when you do or page file dot s s Becky, our case we worked in
42:39
on the terrorist case, you know, page 5 those those places are
42:43
gold mines of information and and I help your audience who do
42:47
forensics will concentrate on those.
42:50
Yeah, pay attention to those areas.
42:52
So, Mark, looking back on your testimony, like, is there
42:56
anything that you had to testify about that stood out the most in
42:59
your mind, whether it was because it was really hard to
43:02
explain and it looked like the jury wasn't getting it or, you
43:05
know, just things always happen when you testify.
43:07
What stands out in your mind? You know, from what I remember
43:10
about the, the jury, I always, and I teach this at IASIS, you
43:14
know the, that when you're talking to a jury, you make eye
43:16
contact with a jury for explanations.
43:19
Not necessary for every yes, yes, you look silly doing that,
43:23
but it's definitely when you're explaining something.
43:25
I remembered at least one person on the jury was two people.
43:28
They were extremely engaged with what I had to say.
43:31
I'm sure a lot of people didn't really understand it.
43:33
They understood the the umbrella maybe, but not specifics.
43:37
But two of them were nodding and they'd go, Oh yeah, they'd give
43:40
the nod stuff. So that's always, you know,
43:43
you're on the right track when you've got at least a couple
43:45
people in the jury that are, are getting it.
43:47
So that was probably one thing I remember from testimony at
43:49
least. Yeah.
43:51
And what about Cross? Did they try to hit you hard
43:53
with anything? No, I think you know the the guy
43:55
who did cross for me, he said. Did she also do searches that
43:59
you found for tatting? Tatting is kind of like knitting
44:02
I guess is what I didn't know that until I did this.
44:05
I was thinking that's getting tattoos.
44:07
Yeah, exactly. I didn't know that.
44:09
When I saw that though, I said what is tatting?
44:10
I looked it up before we went to trial and I said Oh well.
44:13
But I said yes, she did that. She did searches for tatting.
44:17
I do remember one other thing. What are we taught when we when
44:20
we go to to testify, Do we say the suspect did anything?
44:23
No, We say the computer user did this because unless we actually
44:27
see them doing it or can prove otherwise that they did it, we
44:31
try to say this. Well, I started doing that, but
44:34
he kept saying, isn't it true she did this?
44:36
And when she did this, da, da, da, da.
44:37
So after a while, I just gave up and said, yeah, she, you know,
44:40
she did this. You keep saying she did that.
44:42
So I remembered I do. Was that on the cross or on the
44:45
direct? That was on the that was on the
44:46
direct from the defense. So, so the cross, yeah.
44:50
Yeah. Yeah, I couldn't get him off it.
44:52
He just kept saying, isn't it true when she did the search for
44:56
this, she could have been meaning this.
44:58
And I'd say I don't know what her, I don't know what her
45:00
meaning was. When do it what she was
45:01
thinking. I just know that there was the
45:02
search. So I so I tried for several
45:05
answers to say, well, the user did X and after all I said, I
45:09
just say yeah, she did X. So so.
45:13
He didn't object after you just said yeah.
45:15
I mean, yeah, he's, he's the one who kept saying her name, not
45:18
me. So I think that's kind of
45:21
common. I've seen that before in some
45:23
cases too, where they they reference the person as doing
45:27
it, you know, and, and try to put a spin on.
45:29
Well, they could have meant that they were looking for ways to
45:32
get downtown to do that. You know, it's like, I don't
45:34
know, I can't testify to what they were thinking.
45:37
Here's what the evidence is. The jury makes that decision so.
45:40
That's right. Yeah.
45:42
Well, Mark, we really thank you for telling this case and the
45:46
story and this investigation. And I know that it was very
45:51
meaningful to the family that you figured all of this
45:55
information out and were able to be a part of getting this
46:00
conviction. Do you know, have you heard if
46:05
this child grew up with a loving family?
46:08
Do you know much about that? I really don't.
46:11
I can't even open. I'm thinking back in my mind and
46:14
I don't know anything about the child.
46:17
I haven't read any books on the subject.
46:18
No, there's been some books written on it.
46:20
And obviously if you go to Wikipedia, you can get a really
46:22
good in depth things, things I didn't even know about the
46:25
entire taste that goes behind her, the families themselves.
46:28
But. Yeah, well, assumption would be
46:30
she would have went back to her father, Zeb even.
46:32
Though her mother, yeah, that is the mother.
46:34
Died so. Yeah, and by all counts, they
46:37
were a great couple, very nice people, you know, a young couple
46:40
working hard, you know, just trying to live their lives and
46:42
stuff. So you can imagine.
46:44
And I'm sure the mother's, Bobby Justin's mother's, you know,
46:46
very engaged as well. You know, I just can't even
46:49
imagine what that was like for her so.
46:50
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
46:52
Well, good. Thank you, Mark.
46:53
It was great. We always appreciate you telling
46:57
stories. We're really glad to have you on
47:00
this podcast as we speak your name all the time.
47:04
And that's just because I feel like you're one of my biggest
47:08
mentors and you have taught me so much.
47:10
And I know Stacy says that she rings your phone a lot and uses
47:16
you in the in her network to answer a lot of questions.
47:19
So we appreciate that. So.
47:20
It's my pleasure. I, I've loved working with you
47:23
guys currently and in the past. We've, we've had a great, great
47:26
careers in the, in this field. I know all of us are thankful
47:28
that we had learned this stuff in the 1st place a million years
47:31
ago. But what a great, what a great
47:34
career to be involved in the even these days with cell phones
47:37
kind of taking over for computers and stuff.
47:39
But you guys are doing great work.
47:40
Keep it up. Thank you.
47:42
All right, until next time, stay safe, stay sharp, and as always,
47:46
keep parsing the truth one bite at a time.
47:51
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48:04
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48:11
training next year in Orlando. Thanks.
48:18
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.