Latest / Mane AF / EP #8 Sober October: Pulling the Skeletons Out of Our Closet with Kelley Kitley

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EP #8 Sober October: Pulling the Skeletons Out of Our Closet with Kelley Kitley · Mane AF

• Mane AF Podcast: What did I do to piss you off this week? I I I we might need to change this segment because I actually feel like this podcast is making you piss me off less. that's a good thing. Yeah. I feel like having watched ourselves on camera, I s and I've said to you many times, like, my God, I can't I have interrupted you so many times. my God, Renae, shut up. Like I I am learning things that I do that are very annoying to you. And I feel like you have been communicating with me better as well. And this podcast is kind of like we are less pissing each other off. Yeah, it's kind of like Wow, this is working. And speaking of that, we have a therapist on today. Yeah. So I'm I'm very much looking forward to that. Did I piss you off this week? Loaded question now. No, you didn't piss me off, but this morning when I went in for radiation. Something like Kind of threw me a little bit. I'll say a Are we softening from pissed me off to threw me off? I'm softening a little because I'm just about This podcast is doing good work. It's doing good work. But I'm also just about at the end of my radiation. Three more left. Yes. We're getting very localized right now and on where they cut it out. But quite like if I'm doing a film and say you're working on set for three or six months, and about halfway in between. They change up your makeup team and you get used to somebody touching you and and working on you. And that sounds funny when you say it. I well, but you yeah. I had a different doctor today and now it was for right in the localized spot. So I'm like, that kind of pissed me off. I'm like, you don't change up my team at the last fucking second like that. You don't need new people looking at your boobs. Exactly. Take your holidays some other time, not when I need you. But anyhow, so that's kind of frustrated me a bit. But other than that. Are you excited to be done? we will see. You know, I walk by that damn bell every time on the radiation thing, and I'm like, I don't know if I want to ring that one because last time I rang that bell, I got a damn blood clot. I didn't know there was two bells. there's a bell there. Yes. Yeah, but you wouldn't know because you don't come. You've never come to any of my radiation appointments. They're so fast and it's so early, and I can't go in there with you anyway. yeah. So Do you just want moral support? It it's because it's so early. It's because I stay up until one o'clock in the morning working on the podcast while you're in bed at nine o'clock. But well, because I gotta get up at five thirty to go in and get my radiation. But the good thing that came out about this is you know, I'm I'm getting up earlier after the radiation. I come home, I take Biscuit for a nice brisk walk. I'm walking for a mile, a mile and a half every morning, and I'm feeling better walking these hills in our subdivision, and it's just I'm feeling energized. And then when I come back from that I'm just completely exhausted. Yeah. And then I'm done for the rest of the day. You wanna do an intro and get into this? Yeah, let's do an intro. I'm Tyler Mane And I'm Renae Geerlings. And this is Mane AF, where we talk about the stuff midlife throws at you: marriage, health, bad habits, wake-up calls, reinvention. And all the crap you thought you had handled 20 years ago. And today we're talking recovery, perfectionism, relationships, and what happens after you've supposedly dealt with something. But it still lives somewhere in the back of your head. But before we start, we do have a huge request. You if you haven't already hit subscribe on the channel you're following us on, please do so because it really, really does help us to keep bringing out these episodes and growing our channel. And then follow, like, and comment on at Mane AF pod on all the socials. Except TikTok, where it's Mane AF one. I don't know who did that. Now let's meet our guest. Our guest today is Kelly Kitley, a licensed clinical social worker, author, speaker, and host of the Kelly Kitley podcast. Kelly is also the author of the memoir My SELF: an Autobiography Of Survival, where she gets deeply personal about her own experiences with an eating disorder, alcohol, anxiety, trauma, motherhood, and recovery. What makes Kelly especially interesting to us is that she doesn't talk about this stuff only from the therapist's chair. She's lived it. And she talks openly about something we think a lot of people understand in midlife. You change the behavior, rebuild your life, and you can be doing really well and still have some of those old thoughts quietly hanging around in the background. So today we want to talk about what long-term recovery actually looks like, why perfectionism can be its own kind of trap, and how couples can support each other without becoming each other's therapist, probation officer, or full-time emotional support animal. So Kelly, welcome to Mane AF. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: I'm so excited to be here. This is going to be such an exciting conversation. Mane AF Podcast: Kelly, I when when we were reading your credentials, it was like we couldn't have a more perfect guest for our show. We haven't touched on Tyler's quitting drinking yet, or and I also went dry. and yes. She went dry first and then I followed. But yes. Yes. And eating disorders are also one of your specialties and perfectionism and ADHD. so it's Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: just like all the things we welcome to Mane AF. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Hey, one stop shop. Mane AF Podcast: We have all of those covered today. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: One stop shop. a triangle of us. Mane AF Podcast: There we go. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: It's kind of like couples therapy we're going to do today, right? Mane AF Podcast: Boy, yeah, we need that. There we go. Right? It's we're just Kelley Kitley, LCSW: You both paused! You both paused. Alright, let's go. Mane AF Podcast: worried what's gonna happen. It's funny you say that because this podcast has felt a little bit like couples therapy in that it's very interesting to watch how you behave toward each other on camera. And I feel like it actually Kelley Kitley, LCSW: my gosh. Mane AF Podcast: has changed our conversations in real life. Do you think that? I I would agree. Yes, I would agree. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: That's amazing. Mane AF Podcast: Yeah. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: So are you suggesting everybody, every couple do a podcast together to understand how they relate and communicate? Mane AF Podcast: Well, not everybody, because then we'd have more competition, but right. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Amen. Mane AF Podcast: Kelly, one of the first things I wanted to talk about is I read your autobiography myself and it was one of those like I can't put it down, kind Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm. Mane AF Podcast: of kind of reads. And I was so struck by how honest you were about all of the jagged edges. and it's something that we are trying to do. on our podcast as well, be very open and vulnerable. But I wanted you to talk a little bit about what that was like for you as a professional therapist for people, sharing those parts of yourself when they're viewing you as maybe the the expert or like putting you on a pedestal in some way. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. You are absolutely right. Thank you for asking that question because so many of my colleagues told me it would ruin my career if as a psychotherapist I shared my personal story. And that was 10 years ago when the book was published, almost 10 years ago. And so I think that we have truly changed and evolved in some good ways as a society, but especially in the therapeutic world. And so I was working in a group practice at the time and had told one of the psychiatrists who I was working with that I was doing this. I eventually ended up leaving before the book was published and starting my own practice because it wasn't looked on as a very supportive thing to do in sharing my own personal struggles with some of the topics that you just shared. Mane AF Podcast: Yeah, I'm so glad that you did it. I th I I mean it definitely was moving for me. and and then also I wanted to talk about you just recently, one of your most recent podcasts, you interviewed your own brother, who you talk about in the book. And Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Yeah. Mane AF Podcast: and so it was just nice for me the timing of it, you know, being able to read the book and then being able to hear him speak with you about coming on to the other side. And I know that you had. Tried to stage some interventions. what does that Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: feel like for you to to see his successes? Do you feel Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm. Mane AF Podcast: I mean, obviously proud, but is there worry? Kelley Kitley, LCSW: You're getting me teary-eyed. know, serendipitously, he just stopped by. And, you know, we've been through a lot together before getting sober, as well as, you know, he just celebrated 10 years and I just celebrated 13 years. And I think we've both helped each other a lot on our journey. But we were just discussing how we lost our dad nine months ago. And I had been estranged from my dad, but my brother... was living with him and taking care of him. And we are able to heal together in a lot of ways as two sober people who can have some pretty raw conversations about what life was like and certainly, you know, being sober now and how that's changed. I wish that my dad would have gone on the journey with us of sobriety, but I know that we were living examples in his own life. Mane AF Podcast: Now now I have a question for you. Do you do you think that a person has to want the the help? Because Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Hmm. Mane AF Podcast: what I've found is that a lot of people they'll do an intervention or something and people will slide back into it. And bringing up the gray area, which I saw Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: which was why I'm talking about this. This is your Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: short film. At the end, she said, I need help. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Yeah. Mane AF Podcast: Do you think that a person has to come to the understanding in their own mind that they want to quit? Or Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Absolutely. Absolutely. Mane AF Podcast: Or do you th yeah. I I think I I think so too because I've gone through so many times when I've Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: tr I I've tried to quit but I just didn't want to. It w just wasn't there in my head to quit drinking. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Well, and I think there needs to be a real desire and willingness. You know, I had tried to stop drinking on and off for probably 15 years, you know, and it's so funny because trying dry January or sober October and, you know, not drinking during marathon training. And then as soon as that was over, I started drinking again and I picked Mane AF Podcast: Yeah. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: up right where I left off, even though I had had all this time that I wasn't drinking. And when I actually did give up drinking, it wasn't a planned out thing that I had thought. I had just become so sick and tired of the way that I was living in the internal battle of negotiating with myself about alcohol use. And my best friend got sober, and I saw something in her that I wanted. And she brought me to a meeting. I didn't know an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting, a 12-step meeting. And I showed up, and I was like, wow. feel really at home and I never picked up a drink after that and that was 13 years ago. Mane AF Podcast: Yeah, wow, that's amazing. So there wasn't one real wake up call. Like for me, I've had about a million wake up calls, you know, blackout, drunk, all kinds of crazy stuff. But I I think for me, the final straw that broke the camel's back is we had an argument and then I just decided a few weeks about a week later that I was gonna quit drinking, and I just put the bottle down. I can't even remember the day, you know? Yeah. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Next up, so you don't count how long it's been or Mane AF Podcast: No. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: roughly a couple months, couple years. Mane AF Podcast: I roughly I can tell you when it was. It was right after it was right after a weekend that my parents were here. And I only know that because that didn't have a part in it, but I only know that because that was where I had started counting from at some point. it was like, yeah, well, they were here in in February. So this would have been not this February 2026, but February 2025. And Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm. Mane AF Podcast: it's an interesting thing in our house. we don't we don't talk. About him stopping drinking very much, Kelly, which and today with you coming on, it's kind of started a couple conversations, but I've always felt like if I bring it up, he gets a little like it's almost like I feel like he wants to drink again just because I brought it up. And it reminds me of myself with my eating disorder with my mom. Like the minute my mom started asking me, do you think you should have had that? Do you right? It it like it. It brings up something in me that for me got triggered Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: again when I was in my late 40s. I I hired a trainer. I was doing great, but she wanted to know every single thing I ate. And the eating disorder came back so, so hard, like worse than it ever was in my teens or twenties. And Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: I finally had to tell, you know, tell Tyler, like, this is going on. And he was shocked. But there's it's there's like a That trigger that I don't really understand. And so I'm very careful around Tyler. I don't I don't talk about it. And we started talking about that a little bit today. So Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: yeah, but there was I I don't think there was a moment that you were like, I'm not drinking anymore. You just at one point you were like, I haven't had a drink for five days and I was like, For for me it's crazy. I'm all or nothing. Yeah. Right? There's no Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Me too. No gray! There's no gray area! Mane AF Podcast: grey. There's no grey. S so now when you like I like I say, I saw the gray area on YouTube, which is an amazing short film that everybody please go check it out because it is fantastic. It's it's on your channel, right? Tell us the channel that it's on on YouTube. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: It is, so it's on the Kelly Kittley podcast, which is my YouTube channel. But you can type in gray area, the film production company has it there too. It won 12 awards for social change. the reason I say that is because it was really a labor of love. And the next step, my husband and I met at my parents' bar 28 years ago or so. And he still drinks. Mane AF Podcast: Alsbar. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Al's bar. my gosh, you are good. And I love it. I appreciate that so much. Mane AF Podcast: A little bit of a stalker. She's done her research. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: And we thought, you know, I think it was a lot for for Ryan, my husband, for me to put my story out there kind of going back to nobody's family wants them to write an autobiography or a memoir. You know, it is it's a very vulnerable journey. And it took a while for Ryan to come around. and support that. when we decided to do a short film together because he's an actor, it was amazing to work together on something we both felt so passionately about. But I bring this up because the ripple effect of sobriety that happens when people share their story and talk about it. We were on set for 10 days and four people had recently decided to get sober through that. And it was just Mane AF Podcast: Wow, that's amazing. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: this incredible safe space for people to share and be vulnerable about their struggles. Mane AF Podcast: And and I'd also like to just take a moment to say that one of the things I really appreciate about the way that you talk about alcohol is Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: that you are not anti-alcohol. You are Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Correct. Mane AF Podcast: you are very clear that it's fine for some people, but it's important to to be honest with yourself about whether you are one of those people. You want to talk a little bit about that? Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Yeah, I think we need to change the language, you know, that for me for so long, growing up above my parents bar in Chicago, was, you know, I mean, talk about the black and white thinking. Are you an alcoholic or are you not? And so I didn't feel like I fell into this category in my drinking that stereotypically we think of. I lost my job. I got divorced. I had a DUI. None of those qualifiers applied to me, but I was a binge drinker. So I would decide to allow myself to drink and I never knew when I would be able to stop. But if I didn't drink, I always felt so much better about myself and from a behavioral approach in my own life with exercise and nutrition and sleep, it all just kind of lined up. So it wasn't until I said, look, I don't need a label. Am I an alcoholic or am I not? It's how is alcohol impacting me in my life along the spectrum? And once I started to understand that for myself, I was able to give up alcohol and then able to educate other people about it. so there are plenty, I mean, we live in an alcohol saturated world. And if somebody wants to drink, I am not shaming them or judging them. That's always a question people ask. Does it bother you if I drink in front of you? And it's more about how comfortable does that person feel. drinking in front of me, because oftentimes they think I'm the one judging them. But my husband still drinks. I have two young adult children. I have two high schoolers. And we have very open conversation about my choices to not drink. And their dad drinks. I was going to say the slogan, drinks responsibly. But that we have different perspectives about alcohol and. We also have different ways that our bodies handle and our brains handle alcohol. So, you know, if I could still drink, I would. But I made the, I mean, and I could, but I choose to live a life without alcohol because it is not my best life. And I want other people Mane AF Podcast: Yeah. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: to feel that they can relate in some way to that one way or the other and remove the Mane AF Podcast: Yeah. And for Kelley Kitley, LCSW: label. Mane AF Podcast: for me, it was just at the point where I had to take so long to recover in the morning just to get back to somewhat of a normal baseline or whatever it was Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: to feeling crappy where I want another drink, you know, just Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Yeah. Mane AF Podcast: getting to that point. I was never really a person that would drink in the morning, you know, but Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: I would have that crappy feeling until later on in the day. And then just to get back to kind of a sub-baseline, I'd have to have a drink or two. And then I'd just keep going. And we've had some Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: crazy situations over it. And and I will say what you were saying about how it affects different people differently. Whatever Tyler's metabolic reaction to alcohol is, I always said he's a little bit like one of those inflatable men at a You know, at the at the car lot, he's like, Woo, we're drinking. Let's have a drink. Let's have a party. whereas for me, I it didn't I never had that manic response to it. So it's chemically very different. Yeah, Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: but like for me, it started getting to the point where it was affecting me quicker though. for sure. Growing up in Canada, Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: we drank like crazy, you know, that 'cause you got six months of the year, it's ice and snow and you go drink and go to the bar and do whatever, you know. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Yeah. Mane AF Podcast: And just in the last several years, I think my tolerance levels have deteriorated, which is a good thing. I noticed that. Yeah. I did notice that. Kelly, now we we talk about like like we already said, we talk about the wake-up calls on this answering your wake up call. and Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: in Tyler's dealing with obviously his cancer journey and his treatments there. And the question with that is You rang the bell, but are you ever done? Because now it feels like it's always hovering out there. And I think that Kelley Kitley, LCSW: you Mane AF Podcast: applies to addictions as well, be it an eating disorder, be it alcohol, be it workaholism, perfectionism, whatever it is. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: do you do you think there's ever a point where you stop saying, I had a problem and start saying this is just something I'm I'm always gonna have to kind of be aware of, but I'm past it or Do you feel like it's ever present? Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Whew, that is a loaded question and I have an answer because it's Mane AF Podcast: I know. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: mind boggling, Like addiction is addiction is addiction, whether it's alcohol. Mane AF Podcast: You said that in a podcast, and I gotta tell you, I was gonna bring that up later. So I'm glad you said it because I I was like, Yes. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Because why one person develops an eating disorder and another substance abuse and another gambling and, you know, it's all, I believe, a desire to soothe and control in some way. And so what ends up happening is, and there's language around this too, that I think professionals, depending on who you ask, will have a different opinion. Some people, especially in eating disorder recovery, will say, well, I'm recovered. And that kind of insinuating that they no longer have a problem with restricting or binge eating or whatever that might be. Where somebody, because you have to learn how to have a relationship with food and eating disorder recovery. With substance use disorder, you remove the substance. And so sometimes people will say, well, if I pick up again, I'm not truly recovered because I'll go right back to where I was. when I stopped drinking and usually that's not a very positive place to be. So I do believe as a 25 year social worker that we are all in recovery from something and we do need to be hyper vigilant about making sure that we are in a good place emotionally and spiritually so that we don't reach for whatever that ism is. So I think it's a work in progress and it's something we need to be aware of. Mane AF Podcast: I absolutely agree. can can somebody be completely successful in recovery and and still have that voice pop up in their head? I mean, you've already you've already answered it, but I think yeah. Yeah. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Absolutely. Well, no, but I mean, I will, I'll just share a quick story about, you know, being 13 years sober and taking my son to an out of town basketball tournament and had just had a really crappy week and hadn't thought about alcohol in a long time. And I was driving with him to Ohio actually, which was like a five hour drive from Chicago where we were going. And I was like, ooh. I can drink in the hotel room when he's at practice. And then like started feeling this sense of craving and like thinking about it. And I hadn't had that in so long. So I had to talk to my brother and my mom and my best friend who are all alcohol free and in recovery and played the tape forward. Like if I did choose to drink that weekend, my husband would have to come and get me because I'd be too hung over to drive home. And my son wouldn't be able to count on me to drive him or go to his games. So I think we need to be hypervigilant because it can pop up at a time that we don't Mane AF Podcast: Yeah. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: expect it. Mane AF Podcast: Yeah. Like I have a lot of times when I think, I love a glass of bourbon right now. But then I also realized that if I do that, I'm going to go down that slippery slope. But there Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: was a book that I Alan Carr Quit drinking the easy way. Quit drinking the easy way. I listened to that book, and you know, he says in that that you can. Keep drinking until you finish the book. It took him forever to finish Kelley Kitley, LCSW: You Mane AF Podcast: the book. No, I didn't, I did not drink perfectly, I think. No, I did not drink during the once once I started listening to the book. I didn't want to because of the way it frames it. It's a class one carcinogenic and it's killing you the whole time. And it's something that I realized that hey, I don't want to put this into my body anymore. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: And so so I just shut it down. And is there Some kind of approach like that that you would use with people in any way or? Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Tyler, you're a, what's the word? I'm like a miracle, an angel, no, a unicorn. That does not normally happen to people. That is not Mane AF Podcast: Crazy. He's a unicorn. A unicorn. A unicorn. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: a common story I hear people say, that they just kind of decided to put it down and never picked up again. Mane AF Podcast: Yeah. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: That a lot of people need a lot of support to... Mane AF Podcast: Yeah. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: make sure that they are rewiring the way their brain is thinking about it, talking to other people who've been there before them and bringing them on the journey. Because I certainly tried to stop on my own, just like you explained, for years. And it wasn't until I kind of told on myself, so to speak, and spoke with other people who had similar stories that I was able to give it up completely. So you are a unicorn. Mane AF Podcast: I do I do wanna I do wanna talk about that a little bit though because s there's something about that I identify with with your needing to tell someone about it that's a little different Tyler. I don't want to talk about it. He doesn't want to talk about it. I don't talk about it. Like if if if if whenever she would bring it up and say, hey, what about drinking? And I I'm just like, nope. I can see yeah, his whole energy. I just get extremely frustrated and pissed off about it, and then I will just leave the room for some reason. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Hmm. Mane AF Podcast: I I I guess it's me not wanting to face my demons in a way, so to speak. But I figured I've put it down, I've walked away, and I just want to stay away from it. And Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Hmm. Mane AF Podcast: He really did slam a door in a in a crazy way after years, Kelly, of of of mayhem, we'll just say that. But but what you're talking about, I feel a kinship to with my binge eating because it was eating in secret. It wasn't Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: eating with people. It was I drop Tyler off at the airport and I go pick up a 12 pack of Krispy Kreme filled donuts and I eat them in secret. And it was the Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: it was a control issue, I think. It was a throwback to my childhood of being, you know, being kind of told and and kids internalize everything differently. This is certainly nothing that my that my mom did. Wrong, but she was Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: trying to set me on a good path for healthy eating. And I internalized it as when I'm an adult, I'm gonna do what I want. And I started to st like stash food in my room and get treats and hide them in my closet. So it became this almost like squirrel of I have to have my stash. And even to this. You still do you you still do that today. I have to have it. There's like boxes of girl cu Girl Scout cookies. All over our closet, hidden from the kid. And I just I just no, eight months old, eight months old. I just have to know they're there. I don't want Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Uh-huh. Mane AF Podcast: to eat an eight-year-old cookie too. I just I just need to know they're there and I'm and I don't have to eat them now because nobody because I talked about it, and that was Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Hmm. Mane AF Podcast: what I was gonna say is when I finally uncovered it and told Tyler, hey, this is going on, it was like, I don't know, opening the door to that literal closet and saying, I Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: am I'm doing this and I feel shame. took the the power away from it, I guess. And is that what you experience with the drinking as well? Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Yes, and I was just going to say, I think the common thread between what both of you are discussing is shame. Don't talk about it because I don't want to look at it. I've already put down the drink, which was causing problems, and I'm not drinking anymore. So don't kick the door open because I'm afraid or embarrassed Mane AF Podcast: Yeah. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: or ashamed. And then the I want to tell you about. this eating and this sneaking and this hiding behavior because I am ashamed and if I tell you it releases me of that. But then there's also still this mentality of hoarding, this fear that those Girl Scout cookies are your safety object. Just in case I need them, they're there. Mane AF Podcast: Yeah, it's a it's Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Maybe, maybe not. Mane AF Podcast: a it's a control thing. It's knowing Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: that I have the option that n I mean, it sounds so childish to say, but like I do what I want, right? I'm like Cartman, I do what I want. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mane AF Podcast: do you how t talk Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm. Mane AF Podcast: us through because as as our listeners are listening and and also us, ultimately even after you deal with the addiction. you still have to figure out what it was that it was helping you bury. Can you talk about that a little bit and dealing with that part of it? Because I mean it's addiction is addiction, it is its own thing, but it's also a symptom of of something Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: else. Can you talk about that a little bit? Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Yes. So I usually educate about alcohol or whatever ism it is, is really a temporary solution. So in my case, having experienced sexual trauma, even though it wasn't a conscious choice to be like, I am drowning my sorrows in alcohol, because it wasn't all sad. I had a lot of great times drinking. But it was being able to turn my brain off and not be perfectionistic when I was drinking or not feel anxious because the alcohol took the edge off. And so what ends up happening is when you remove what you thought was the solution for masking whatever you were feeling, you remove that substance or behavior and all those feelings are like bubbling over. And then you have to deal with them. And you don't have these coping mechanisms that that were destructive coping mechanisms but worked. Mane AF Podcast: Mm-hmm. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: So until you work on those things, you're still kind of, and I hate to use this word, it's a very old school word, and I'm not calling you out, Tyler, and saying that you're doing this, but kind of that like dry drunk, you know, like I'm not picking up, but I'm not gonna talk about it, and I'm not gonna Mane AF Podcast: Yeah. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: kind of look at how I behaved during the times that I drank, like I'm fine now. Mane AF Podcast: Yeah. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: But more so of like, okay, well, what's your life like without alcohol? How are your, how has your relationship changed? How do you feel about yourself? I mean, there's some things in terms of personality that comes with somebody who has an addictive personality. You know, I'm still really intense. I'm really impulsive. It's like the alcohol took that away. Mane AF Podcast: Yes. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: But now that's not a solution for me anymore. So I need to work through those things that are part of my personality that also might be triggered by my marriage or my kids. And now Mane AF Podcast: Yeah. Yeah. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: it doesn't last as long and I'm aware of it. And I have other coping mechanisms to use like positive self-talk, compassion, moving my body, distraction, you know, where before it would just be like, I need a glass of wine. All of you are driving me nuts. Mane AF Podcast: Yeah. Well, I think I think mine started this go round was to to numb the pain from my bad hips. I had bad hips for so long and I just got my hips replaced. Well, didn't just several years ago. And then I was drinking more, you know, most people drink socially. I would drink by myself in my basement here. And then when I would go You talk about that a lot. COVID didn't help. Yeah, COVID didn't help. But then also Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: I wouldn't want to be going out and drinking anymore because then I wouldn't want to drive and get involved in all of that and and being Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: out at a bar situation. I was just happy drinking by myself and I realized, hey, this isn't doing anything for me. And after I would drink to cover up the pain, I think I was drinking. To drown my sorrows of, you know, woe is me, my career isn't going quite the way I wanted it, or or I'm not, Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: you know, doing this deal or that deal. And and so I think I would drink a lot to just cover that up. And then when I would do that, I would be very upset and then putting the booze on top of it would not help. Yeah. Well then there's no Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: filter. And the other thing is while it's great to To be a home drinker in terms of safety and not having to drive and not being out, it also stop like there's no speed bumps. There's no, Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: right? You can just roll right into it and then just roll right into bed. And so it's hard to to Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: to keep a a measure. I But it's pretty damn lonely. I would like to just make a little it is. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Thank you. Thank you for saying that. You're talking about isolation in both cases, right? Let me drink alone Mane AF Podcast: It is yes, yes. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: in my basement. Let me eat my cookies alone in my closet. Fuck all of you, leave me alone. Mane AF Podcast: Exactly. And you know, when you start watching a movie or something and you can't remember the movie, I mean, I guess Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: that means I can binge watch a bunch of stuff more stuff with so much stuff that I'd miss. 'Cause I'd fall asleep during it or I'd, you know, pass out or blackout. And yeah, it it's just not a great way to live. I'm I've been sober what what, about a year and a half or a year and a half. little over a year and a half. And I feel great at and I'm thankfully I'm not even thinking about picking up a a drink at all. It's funny, I Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm. Mane AF Podcast: was a little nervous because like I said, we don't talk about it. So sometimes it feels like a minefield, like, uh-oh, if we if we break the tenuous, like if we talk about it, are we gonna is it is it gonna trigger him? So today we'll we'll find out. We're talking about it now, baby. Throw it at me. Throw it at me. I'll Kelley Kitley, LCSW: You Mane AF Podcast: call you in two days. Kelly, so I would like to also Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: to ask you. Like I know what happened for me. I did dry January in twenty-three. And then I just decided I will I was hoping maybe if I quit drinking that other people in my life would be inspired. And I don't have an issue with alcohol. It's more Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: a ritual or a social or a habitual thing. So I had no problem losing the substance. I dry January, then I went sober. Then I dealt with my eating disorder and kind of threw away that crutch. So I had two crutches basically. That I didn't even realize until Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: I decided to throw them both away. And the perfectionist in me was like, well, I'll just fix this and then everything will be great. That was not what happened. I threw away the alcohol and then I got my eating and my relationship with food moving and stopped using food as a comfort. And that was the moment that I had a complete burnout, breakdown, I mean, you remember I was and it did and paramenopause doesn't help either because I think all my progesterone went, you Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Right. Mane AF Podcast: know. You lost your damn mind. I really did. My mental health was in the in the trash. Can you talk about for people who are thinking about doing this things to help set themselves up for success so they don't run into that same trap? Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Yes. So as I had mentioned, alcohol and food, there's such a correlation and so many people who struggle with substances also struggle with eating disorders. I mean, that is a proven scientific fact. And I think that those worked for you for a long time in terms of kind of keeping you steady, so to speak. And then it didn't work anymore. And so when you remove those, it's you're kind of like a two-year-old having a temper tantrum and not knowing how to soothe yourself because those things were soothing you for so long. And so what I tell people is, especially now when people are doing these alcohol-free challenges, it's not lovely to begin with. It's actually pretty hard. And so can you supplement those times that you would binge or grab a drink with going for a walk outside with somebody so there's accountability that you can have somebody meet you outside your door and go to a yoga class or, you know, being able to, for me, it was the news. Like I became infatuated with the news at 5.30 Lester Holt was my boyfriend, which is a horrible substitute, right? Like nothing. Mane AF Podcast: I feel like that would make me want to drink more than anything, but good on ya. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Totally, but for some reason it was a transfer. It was a harm reduction model for me, right? Like it got my mind off pouring the glass of wine at 530 and had me looking at something else, not the healthiest coping mechanism, but it certainly was a distraction. And then Mane AF Podcast: It's all relative. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: it is all relative. And the further I got in my recovery, the more healthy substitutes I had of like, how is the news really making you feel? It's actually making you feel depressed and looking at the world from a lens of negativity. And so, you know, being able to schedule a 530 yoga class with a girlfriend was my new happy hour. And then when I was done, I felt so much better. And I felt like that was a reset, similarly the way wine was for me. I had to work harder. Mane AF Podcast: Yeah, it's getting Yeah, yeah. Well, it's it's getting through those first probably that first week, but those first few days while that alcohol is coming out of your system and you're getting back to normal, those first few days are tough. That I'm I'm not gonna lie, that is hard to get through those first few days. But Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: I would just like you say, do something. I'd either go into the gym here or I'd pick up a guitar and just start playing. I'd do something to distract myself from wanting the the the booze and it Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Yeah. Mane AF Podcast: helped too. So I would just I've I've replaced it with these other things. So I guess yeah, I never really thought about that until you just said that now, which is Kelley Kitley, LCSW: And look, for you and me who were drinking to black out, not to black out, but drank to excess when that would then, but okay, okay. Fair enough. Thank you for your transparency. But you know, for people who maybe Mane AF Podcast: Yeah, drinking to blackout. Yes. Yeah, to forget the day, forget forget everything. Yeah. Yeah, you nailed it. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: didn't drink like that, you know, and are looking maybe to cut back from drinking a bottle of wine a week to like two glasses a week. You know, it may not be as difficult as it is. I say the first year is the hardest. You're going to, you know, your first wedding, maybe your first funeral, maybe your first work event without alcohol. Like we don't know what that's like in middle age if we've been drinking most of our life. Mane AF Podcast: Yeah. Yeah. Until you get into that situation. And and luckily for me, I I just I was like, no, I don't even want it. Like I was out with the buddies last night and you know, they're all having their margaritas and stuff like that or whatever, or beer or whatever. And I'm like, nah, I'm fine. I'm I had my my iced tea and and we had a great time. You know, I had I had more fun Kelley Kitley, LCSW: And none of the guys are like. Mane AF Podcast: I had more fun being sober than getting you know, half or three quarter blitzed and then having to come home and finish the job, so to speak, which was just Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: so much better. And and when I came home, I could have a a coherent conversation with you and Kelley Kitley, LCSW: you Mane AF Podcast: and and yeah. You know, drive home? And I could drive home, yes. There was one go ahead. Go ahead. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Well, and people, go ahead, sorry. I was just gonna say, people need to hear that, that you had a better time being sober, socializing with your buddies than you did when you were drinking with them. Because so many times when people are looking at alcohol use, they think, how am I ever gonna have fun again if I'm not drinking? Because that's the association. But look at all these benefits. You drove, you connected with your buddies, you remembered Mane AF Podcast: Yeah. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: what you said, you connected with your spouse. You know, all of these components that like I trade alcohol for all of those, you know, it for. Mane AF Podcast: There was there was well, you know, it it's like the thing is too, is like when you have been drinking for as long as probably you or I have, it it gets to the point where you have to have a certain amount and then when you have that, you start feeling crappy before you start getting that buzz on. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: For me it was that way. Like if I'd go to a a bar and have two or two or three drinks, I would feel crappier than not drinking. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: So I don't know whether it was just the tolerance in my system or just the way my system would absorb the alcohol, and then I'd just have to come home and just sit down in the bar and get plowed down here. I have a suspicion, though, that some people drink to to numb a little. They like the little buzz. That was not your goal. You wanted to be drunk. And so I wanted to forget. I don't forget. Yeah. I'm guessing, just as somebody who was Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: a witness, but it felt like that little buzz was more of an annoyance to you, like, ugh, yes, let me. Because I wasn't feeling good with that buzz. It was a it was a crappy feeling. And there was one event that we went to Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Hmm. Mane AF Podcast: where Tyler was driving home and there someone had gotten very blackout drunk. And in my head, I was thinking. I wonder if Tyler is ever aware that that used to be him. And I'm not gonna say anything because I would never, you know, like not gonna touch the minefield, but like in my head, I was thinking, I wonder if he's aware. And we and out of the silence, as if he was psychic, he said, you know, I was thinking, boy, it it's really fun to have drinks at social events, but that used to be me. And I don't want to be like that anymore. And I was like Kelley Kitley, LCSW: You Mane AF Podcast: And I you I couldn't agree. I was just like, mm-hmm. But Kelley Kitley, LCSW: You Mane AF Podcast: do you you could agree? What the heck? Well, I don't want to be like, I didn't I don't want to be like Right. Yeah, you used to be Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Tell me more about that! What are you talking about? Told you! Mane AF Podcast: awful. No, but it it's it's it's really it's Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Hmm. Mane AF Podcast: really I I can't even come up with the word. I can't even come up with with a word that's pithy enough about how good it feels to watch somebody come out the un other side. of of recovery. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: But I would like to ask you a question because there are still other people that I know and that a lot of people know that where they're watching them almost purposely sink the ship. Yeah. And I know Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: that you've seen that a lot. And what words of advice do you have for people who are watching about how much to try to step in, how to be Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: supportive, and how much to Allah people to make their own choices. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Gosh, great question. You know, I think that we have a responsibility as human beings to watch out for each other. So if you're watching and somebody's being destructive, I do believe rather than ignoring or pretending or sweeping it under the rug, like many of us were brought up to do, that we acknowledge what we're witnessing in a sober state. and saying, you know, I'm really concerned about you. I've noticed that you've been drinking more or I noticed you're not eating at meals anymore or that you're spending 16 hours a day at work. Usually there's a defensiveness that comes with that to the person who is hearing that feedback. But I think it's a balance between... being accountable to somebody we love and expressing our concern and then also staying in our own lane and recognizing it's not our problem to fix. And so as I talked about with my brother in the book, who we did have an intervention with after having had so many conversations and concerns about his usage, it wasn't until he had a near-death experience and decided to quit drinking on his own. the intervention. He still walked away from Mane AF Podcast: Yeah. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: the intervention and we were like, I don't know what's gonna happen here. But my point in being is that for so long the people who loved somebody in addiction was like, please get better. Don't you see what you're doing? We love you. We care about you. Well then we wanted it more than he did and we were the ones who were suffering. So say what you need to say. Express your concern even if it's 10 times. but then pull away and stay in your own lane and let the person do the work that they need to do. And sadly, some people don't end up. Some people, exactly, some people die Mane AF Podcast: Making it through, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: because of alcohol and drug usage. Mane AF Podcast: Yeah. Yeah. Like a and it I think th the timing is very important too, because to go to a person once they've had two or three drinks and say, Hey, drinking now is not a you know, that's not the time to do it because that's when they're gonna become explosive. And I think you would say that to me a few times, Hey, stop drinking when I've already started. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: And that's kind of tough too. And then in the morning you would talk to me, but I'm trying to get rid of my hangover. Yeah. In the morning it was better too. It was horrible. This was the impossible Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Yeah Mane AF Podcast: situation, of course, because when he's drinking, you can't talk to him because he's drinking. And in the morning, it's always, I'm not gonna Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: do that again. I'm done. Don't talk to me about it. It's fine. It's over. Don't talk to me about it. So there was a closed door policy about communication. And I was a repeat Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: offender. So yeah. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Was there a sweet spot? Because that's a good point. You don't want to have a conversation with somebody when they're under the influence or just started the behavior. And then there's the recovery process, right? So there's like one little sweet spot, Mane AF Podcast: Yeah. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: maybe like three o'clock in the afternoon. Hey, can we grab a cup of coffee? You know? Mane AF Podcast: Well, I think yeah, I th I th I that's that's a tough, tough question. I think y the sweet spot is hopefully getting them when they're thinking, Hey, maybe I should do something about this. Although in your case, me saying something to you when you were thinking that would immediately stop you from thinking that. It was like my mother asking me, if, you know, like like, you look like you lost some weight. You know, you you must be doing really well. That would immediately make me be like, I want chips and cheese right now. It just, you know, just Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Totally. Mane AF Podcast: like back off of me. and I Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: I'm certainly not, you know, that is this is my issue. I'm not Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Yeah. Mane AF Podcast: saying, you know, my mother has all the best intentions and and always did. it's just how I internalized it. But it would just, it would freeze me up. Even being supportive sometimes. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: I also think that no matter how good somebody's intentions are, right, or not, and this comes with psychological and emotional growth, to be able to say, hey, when you say that to me, I feel really triggered. You know, so that that person might not know what they're doing. They may think what they're saying is helpful. You know, I'm Mane AF Podcast: Right. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: just trying to help and shine a light on your behavior that I think is bad for you. So that's, the intent usually is not bad. I like to Mane AF Podcast: Right. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: believe most of us have good intent. It's recognizing what happens in that moment and then taking personal responsibility and saying, hey, can we not talk about that right now? Cause when you bring it up, makes me feel really uncomfortable. Mane AF Podcast: Yeah. Yeah. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: and then saying, hey, can we talk about that later? Maybe, maybe not. It's uncomfortable and we just have to sit. Right, it's uncomfortable. Mane AF Podcast: Maybe way later. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's very uncomfortable. And the thing is too, when the person is trying to talk to you, you want to talk to them, but you're also feeling shame because you realize you're doing the wrong thing. You you you you're acting like an idiot. You're acting like you know, and you're you know you're destroying your life. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: It's just the the rerouting what you're thinking is the hard part, you know, and finding the new avenue or outlet Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: or whatever it is to deal with whatever you're feeling at that time and and to to feel with that shame that you're feeling. Like I'm I'm I'm sure you probably felt a fair bit of shame too throughout the years when you were drinking, because you get those wake-up calls, you don't wanna answer them, but yet Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: you're still ashamed of what you've done and and Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: and who you're hurting and and all of that. And it's it's It's a tough cycle to break. It really is. And Kelly Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mmm. Mane AF Podcast: we we talk about a lot of midlife stuff on this podcast, right? We're we're dealing with all the things that happen in midlife. and and this is topical for our midlife. But in your opinion, do you think It's do you think it's potentially easier for somebody who's older who knows more about themselves to deal with their addiction? Or do you think it's more difficult the older you get because you become more set in your ways? Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Whew, case by case basis. Because I hear all the time, I mean, I'm in the change business, right? And so oftentimes somebody will say, my mother's 72 years old. She will never change. She's always been like that. And I'm like, the person needs to want to change, but I believe anybody can change if there's a willingness. And so I think that it can become harder. the older we get because we've become so ingrained in our habits and our personalities, but I also think that there may have been years of carrying so much pain that we're more likely to surrender and say, I've had enough because I've become sick and tired of dealing with this. But then I think there's some younger people who think that life hasn't gotten that bad yet. And so they try to ride it out until it gets. that bad, whatever that means. So I really want to use a prevention model and it's about educating people, you know, and removing the label of what somebody thinks is that black and white thinking of good or bad behavior. It's just assessing how is this working for me in my life. Mane AF Podcast: Yeah, and how can I make things better and have a better outcome and live longer, you know? It I've Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know... Mane AF Podcast: changed all all my whole path is now longevity. And and then of course I get this breast cancer, but that's just a mild blip. But I think if I hadn't of quit the drinking, that I might have been in a way more severe situation with that. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: You are the second person I have spoken to in the last week who got sober and then got breast cancer a year later. I don't know when your diagnosis Mane AF Podcast: Wow. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: was relevant to your sobriety, that Mane AF Podcast: Yeah, pretty pretty much pretty close, yeah. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: other person said to me, I am this much more well-equipped to handle it. Yeah. Mane AF Podcast: To handle it, to deal with it, to to yeah, yeah, because I'm telling you, if if I would have got this while I was drinking, boy, I would have just probably went right down that rabbit hole and been drunk right now. Oof. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. For sure. Mane AF Podcast: Yeah. There are so many ways you got I love your phrase that you use all the time, God winks. There are so many God winks that you got where you just got just a little like just a little coarse correction, just a little got you. Mm I love that. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: And you got that too when you wanted to say something to him about the person in the car and Mane AF Podcast: I did. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Got I mean, I'm not a religious person, but I do believe in divine intervention and spirituality and that's all over That's all over your all's life. I see it. Yeah Mane AF Podcast: Yeah. Yep. Same, same. Yeah. Yeah. It's all energy. It's all energy. For sure is. so I have a question for you. You wrote myself and then had years after its release before you you revisited it and and Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: re-released it with some incredible material at the end of it. I was yeah, I like because I I listened to the most recent version. and what a lovely bookend it was to get that extra content. what do you understand now about about the w what what do you understand now that the woman who wrote the book originally might not have? Kelley Kitley, LCSW: that when I originally wrote the book, and it took me a long time to write that book, I had an eating disorder chapter, I had a trauma chapter that just sat there for years, and it wasn't until I got sober that there was an alcohol chapter that I was like, that's why I haven't been able to finish the book. So it was... Mane AF Podcast: It was like Alan Carr's quit drinking the easy way. It was just myself. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: But what I, you know, revisited in this second edition that has just really added resources for the reader as the Sober Curious movement has changed and then the death of my dad, who I was estranged from, was that I thought it was just about the alcohol when I first wrote that book. I thought it was like, woohoo, I'm good. I gave up alcohol. Look at this beautiful life I'm living. but I had so many hard things happen in my life after I gave up the alcohol that I was like, this is about like how I actually live and how I can show up for myself and others because I'm not drinking, because I'm not dealing with all the emotions that I numbed. And now it's like, I truly believe had I not gotten sober, I still would have been estranged from my dad, but I certainly would have had a lot of anger and resentment and would not have shown up at his deathbed. But because I'm Mane AF Podcast: Mm. Wow. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: sober, I was able to show up having worked through a lot of that anger and resentment and just accept him for who he was. Mane AF Podcast: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This this year has been really, really rough for us. And I think had I been drinking through it all, it probably would have been a lot rougher because I lost my brother. You know, I went and saw him laying there on his deathbed. And and, you know, going back to the house after that, I could have easily just slid into a a drink, but I was like, no, I don't want that for myself, you know? Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: And then I was like, Well, at least I'm healthy. And I come ha Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Yeah Mane AF Podcast: ha You know, and then I get this kick in the pants and Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Yeah. Mane AF Podcast: you know, and then we lose Renee's father, and Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm. Mane AF Podcast: it's just been you know, dare I say a real shit show, but Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Yeah. Mane AF Podcast: I'm glad that I'm haven't been drinking through it because then it I think it would have exacerbated a lot of the problems and it would have been make it way worse. I have actually never thought of that until just this moment. And it made me a little sick to my stomach to think about having to go through all this. With me drinking. With Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Hmm. Mane AF Podcast: you drinking. so thank you. You're welcome. See, I am to please. Happy wife, happy life. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: you Mane AF Podcast: Kelly, thank you so much for coming on today. I feel like, I mean, we there's so many other topics that you specialize in, and we'll have to get you back on because I I we could just keep you here for hours. But I I do wanna we're gonna hit on the perfectionism a little bit here. I was trying to get we are hitting no. No, no. We yep. She was like, I'm Kelley Kitley, LCSW: You're like, and thank you very much. Go ahead. Mane AF Podcast: out and she saw me looking at the question. So no, no, no, Kelley Kitley, LCSW: You Mane AF Podcast: no, no. You don't get out of this one. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: for you guys I am enjoying myself so much let's keep going Mane AF Podcast: She is, she is such a perfectionist and it drives me crazy. You know, I come up with the ideas, but like she said, you know, if if if this was left up to her, this podcast would not have been started. You know, we'd still be in the planning stages. I'm like, no, we gotta just go. You gotta go, you plan, you go, you break it down, you figure it out, you change, you reroute. And she is not like that. And and that has been a little bit of conflict in our relationship. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Sure. Mane AF Podcast: A lot. But that is that is one thing that we're fighting with. And Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Hmm. Mane AF Podcast: How do you when it's when it's not like how this is to me so much different than putting down a bottle or putting down a cookie. This is this is This is this is also a part of it's it's a part of a whole nother package. It's a whole nother bucket that we're gonna We're unpacking it. Yes, we are. We're not gonna unpack it. We'll we'll have her come back some other time. But and I we've talked about this on a few we'll we'll talk about this, but Kelley Kitley, LCSW: That's it, you guys. We'll have coffee in your basement. Yeah. Okay. Mane AF Podcast: Thank you. We'll just get you. There we go. but what I was gonna say is perfectionism is a part of as a as a former gifted student who was extremely high functioning people pleaser, Kelley Kitley, LCSW: you Mane AF Podcast: w hid all my ADHD symptoms, put everything Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm. Mane AF Podcast: off until the very last minute. keep my doom piles of because my object permanence is bad. the lists. the lists. Doing all of that though, it's not like it's not like binge eating where you're going to damage your body or purging where you're you know you're damaging your body. It's not like alcoholism where you know it it just does nothing good. Perfectionism feeds into this sort of it's a high functioning quality. It feels like it, but it's not because at some Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm. Mane AF Podcast: point it tips from being a high functioning quality to being a way to avoid. failure. Right? There's Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Renee, you've done some good work, lady! Mane AF Podcast: Well don't tell Tyler because I'm here, I'm listening to this. I know. I d but it it's Now apply it. It's really hard for me to I understand it. She understands it. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Yeah, she intellectualizes it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mane AF Podcast: It's just applying it. So how do you have any advice for her that she could figure out how to apply this better? Kelly, can you fix my wife's wife, Kelly? Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Yeah, yeah, right. Well, so I'm so curious to know how did you guys meet? Mane AF Podcast: w We met at a comic comic convention. He was Wizard World Comic Con. I was supporting X Men and she was working for she used to be the editor in chief at Top Cow Comics, so she was there promoting her stuff. And I saw this gorgeous blonde and I said, Hey, I wanna wanna I wanna what? I wanna that was going on World Road. I know, I gotta Kelley Kitley, LCSW: What was this pickup line? Mane AF Podcast: I had a bad pickup line. My pickup his well, his the second time we met, his pickup line was I waved at you today and you would didn't wave back. And I said, I didn't see you and he said, I'm seven feet tall. How do you miss me? I I have no game. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: It worked! Mane AF Podcast: I have no game. It did work. Thank goodness. None. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: And my reason for bringing that up is because I think what I see in a lot of couples relationship is what we found to be so attractive in the beginning of the relationship tends to be the thing that bothers us the most later on in that relationship. And I would, for some, yes, maybe it still bothers you. However, I think you guys. Mane AF Podcast: Thinking. I bother her every day. I bother her every single day. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: both of your personality styles of, you know, maybe Tyler, you're more kind of fast acting impulse wanting to do things is really protected in some ways by Renee and her saying, let's slow down a little bit, pump the brakes, you know, is this, are you sure this is what we want to do? And Renee, for you to have Tyler kind of push you off the edge a little bit and say like, it's time, you know, we're ready. So I think you guys balance each other a lot. You're just both at such opposite ends of the spectrum that I think. Mane AF Podcast: We're yin and yang. We do, but to to go along with your with your an your analogy metaphor of Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Yeah. Mane AF Podcast: the I pump the brakes. I I like to say he's the engine and I am the brakes and the steering wheel. But but when the engine is revving and the brakes are going, those brake pads are getting a lot of friction. And and that is where Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Ooh. Mane AF Podcast: we struggle in projects. I like the one that you Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Okay. Mane AF Podcast: say when you're the Water skier that's lost your skis. you d you like the fact that I face planted five miles back that you're the speed boat and I'm the s the water skier just trying to hang on behind the boat? Yes, I do. Yes. Keep up, baby, keep up. I like mine better. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: want to use a strengths perspective because I think sometimes we get so in the minutia of all of it that it's just like that same tape, right? Like, I've been annoying her our whole marriage, you know, and it's like, okay, but I bet there's some strength in the way that you operate that negates some of her perfectionism. Maybe, maybe not, but I guess my question, okay. Mane AF Podcast: Thousand percent. I I will absolutely say, like, and and we talk about this, we would never have gotten anything off the ground. I would be s you know, smoking my pipe, thinking about it on the porch, to this day. We would have never Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Yeah. Mane AF Podcast: produced films, we would never have comic books out if he wasn't behind me, like pushing me. She'd be still Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Yeah. Mane AF Podcast: in the planning stages of life for sure. But because I'm the perfectionist and the Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Yeah. Mane AF Podcast: detail-oriented person. None of it would have gotten done. You would have had a lot of ideas and I know. That's why I say we're yin and yang. We're we we you know what's the word? You're help me here. We accent each other. We Kelley Kitley, LCSW: We are. Mane AF Podcast: no, we what's the word? What how what is it? Compliment. Thank you. I'll take a compliment Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Compliment? Compliment? Yeah. Mane AF Podcast: from you. I was hoping to get it from her, but I was just gonna let you hang out there. I you did. I did. You let me hang so hard. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Middle-aged brain. I felt so bad because I'm like I know that happens to me all the time where I'm like, what's that word? Here's my question How do you all usually handle it because it seems to be working pretty well for you? Mane AF Podcast: Mm. We both pout and go in a different direction and then we come back and go, I'm sorry. We yeah. And we figure it out. We Yeah, I do how do we I don't know that we handle it. We We just do it. We yell a lot. It's Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Okay. Mane AF Podcast: not even yelling, it's just that's because you're up on the third floor and I'm in the basement. We're yelling from different floors. We need Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Hahahaha Mane AF Podcast: an intercom system. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: guess a challenge that I would ask or something that I say to my clients is like, your homework assignment for this week is to Mane AF Podcast: We need one. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: try on each other's approach. Renee, I want you to be a little more impulsive and Tyler, I want you to be a little more perfectionistic. And so Mane AF Podcast: That gave me panic. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: it's like... So I want you to pick three things throughout the course of this week from now until next Thursday to note like, okay, I really wanna be impulsive here, but I'm gonna take my time and I'm gonna pretend I'm Renee and how would she handle this? And I just want you to try this exercise as information gathering for both of you. Mane AF Podcast: I will try, I will definitely try this, Kelly, but I wanna Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Okay. Mane AF Podcast: tell you I was really shitty at school and homework was bad for me, but I'll try. I will try. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-hmm Well then okay Mane AF Podcast: What am I gonna be a perfectionist at? I gotta figure that out. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: I don't know, like folding laundry or mowing the lawn or why am I thinking of household things, sending an email. I don't know, but then I want Mane AF Podcast: R Kelley Kitley, LCSW: you both to reflect on what it was like for one another in that role. And maybe you'll find a new appreciation for the other person. Mane AF Podcast: Yeah, I could take about three hours to write an email like you do. Yeah, okay, but let's be honest, here's how you write an email. Renee, can you write this email for me? Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Pfft. Mane AF Podcast: And then if I don't do it right and I send it out and he doesn't like it, he's like, why would you do that? So You're my stenotyper or whatever they're called. What are they called? It's yeah, stenographer. You're my stenographer. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Stenographer? No way. Mane AF Podcast: man. Wow, we are just really Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Mm-mm. Mane AF Podcast: crazy. I'm we definitely have to have you back on. This has been so much fun. Thank you so much for coming on. We need to hire her and pay her as our therapist, I think is what I learned. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: It really has. Of course, of course. Mane AF Podcast: there's a lot to Thank you so much for coming on. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: I love you guys. You're the best. This was Mane AF Podcast: You're just a font of knowledge and the stuff that you're doing is amazing. So tell people where they can find you. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Thank you. They can find me on my website, which is Kelly Kittley. And I spell my name K-E-L-L-E-Y, Kittley, K-I-T-L-E-Y. And on Instagram, it's my name as well. And I post clips from media appearances and try to really flood people's algorithm with positivity about mental health and wellness and ways to best take care of ourselves. Mane AF Podcast: And I'm also gonna give another shout out for your book, My Life, your autobiography, which is incredible, the second edition. And I listened to the audiobook. So I I loved it. And then also Gray Area. Yes. I was gonna say that is Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Yes. Yes. Mane AF Podcast: an amazing film. If you have any issues or problems with drinking or know someone that does, please watch it. It is very enlightening. And the Kelly Kitley podcast. And the Kelly Kitley podcast. And your husband did a great job in that film, by the way. Mark, right? Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Thank you. Thank you so much, Ryan. No, no, no, And Mane AF Podcast: Ryan. wow. I was doing so good until the end. I just failed. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: one tiny correction. You said the book is my life. It's myself. which is, Mane AF Podcast: Myself, did I say that before? Kelley Kitley, LCSW: no, you said my, you were right before, but we're talking, Mane AF Podcast: good. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: it is about my life. What it is about. It's Mane AF Podcast: Myself. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: also about finding myself and hoping that Mane AF Podcast: Yes. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: other people will also find theirself. So. Mane AF Podcast: Yes, thank you for saying that. And thank you so much for being on. we really appreciate your time. Kelley Kitley, LCSW: Of course. Thank you. Mane AF Podcast: Thank you. I love that conversation. I I learned so much from Kelly today. So huge thank yous to Kelly for taking the time to come on and be on our podcast. Yes. Thank you, Kelly. And if you at home like this conversation, please subscribe to Mane AF, like the episode, leave a comment, tell all your friends so that we can keep making this podcast for you. Yes, and send it to somebody who may need to hear that recovery doesn't have to be perfect to be real. I'm Tyler Main. And I'm Renae Geerlings. And this is Mane AF. Peace no.