Latest / The Living Loss | Navigating Invisible Grief & Identity / RP | Living with Collective Grief: The 80s baby Experience Part 2
Transcript
- Cassandra: In our last episode, we looked back at the map we were given as 80s babies, and how 9-11, the recession, and the global pandemic essentially folded that map in half. We named the cumulative grief of a generation that's been braced for the next hit for over 20 years. Hello friends, I'm Cassandra Harris Towner. Daiana: and I'm Daiana Bernard. Cassandra: As licensed mental health counselors, are unpacking the quiet, complex griefs that don't come with a funeral. Because you can't heal what you don't acknowledge. Daiana: Welcome to the Living Loss podcast. We are so glad you're joining our conversation as we name these losses and create a meaningful path forward together. Please subscribe and share this episode. helps us grow this community and reach others who need to know their grief is valid. Let's dive in. Today we're moving from just surviving that history to actually living in spite of it. We're talking about how to widen our window of tolerance while we find the glimmers in the chaos and make room for joy, even when the world still feels scary. This is part two of The Living Loss. Cassandra: I'm really glad that you touched based on touched base. think I made up a word there. What really is going to matter for us as we move forward and trying to not just survive, but also live with intention, live with the reality, live with all of these things that are compiling all at once. There are a lot of different things that just as I know I like the term elder millennial that you do not care for, that had brought us together almost as a community. There's this living timeline of trauma, if you will, that included 9-11. You mentioned, or we mentioned the recession. We mentioned the Sandy Hook Elementary shooting that happened in 2012. Daiana: No. Cassandra: We mentioned the COVID-19, the pandemic, shutdown, all of the losses that we had during that time, both individually and as a community. And by community, I almost mean worldwide, because there was not an area of the world that was untouched by this. I remember the first time I heard about the pandemic, I was working in a retail jeweler and I called a special order line. And asked them where my special order was. And they're like, ⁓ the country that it's coming from is shut down. What do you mean it's shut down? Because in the United States, we hadn't really understood the full depth of what was about to happen yet. And they said, yeah, this country, the whole country is shut down because of COVID or the coronavirus or whatever it was that they called it. So I wasn't able to get the thing that I needed to get. then two months later, we had the same issue happen here. So it was astounding, the amount of change and grief and loss. I know someone who lost, I know so many people, multiple someone who lost so many people during that time in and of itself. It was devastating. Daiana: was. And as we look at our past collective trauma with 9-11, and we're looking at ⁓ these years of the pandemic, you can't think of those years without thinking of the trauma we were experiencing at the time. And I think after, while we're in it, we're kind of trying to figure it out, things feel very uncertain. But then there is some delayed grief where it doesn't hit you till after the effects. Cassandra: And there's still first responders that are living with that grief every single day. There are people that lost family members, that lost loved ones, spouses, all of the things during all of these scenarios. And that delayed grief just lasts and can stay with you and stick with you and make you even that much more hypervigilant for when the next thing is going to happen. Daiana: Yeah. In 2023, I interviewed a nurse. It was towards the end of our program. I don't even remember the assignment, but I know I had to interview someone. And she, in our conversation, did not realize how horrid the experience was. And even for me right now, thinking about that interview, I don't know if I can even say the things that she saw. without, you know, feeling physically sick. And I do think about the doctors and the nurses who saw so much death and experienced so much death and risked their own lives every day. Cassandra: I don't think the term thank you will ever cover it. Daiana: Never. Never. They really gave a part of their life to their patients. They sacrificed themselves. Cassandra: truly did. Truly. Daiana: I do hope that any nurse or doctor, therapists as well who are working during that time, all of these frontline first responders, it's been years later, but the impact of that, we're still working through it. And I hope that they do seek the counseling as part of their toolbox. Cassandra: they hope they know they're not alone. There are hundreds of thousands of people that are managing similar experiences all at the same time. And just knowing that you're not alone can go a whole long ways. Daiana: Yes. It sure can. Yeah. We're going to talk about a couple of concepts today. And one is called like radical honesty. That's when you're looking at the truth over positivity. That means you're acknowledging that life is scary. It isn't being a downer. It is clinical validation. That is when we when we pretend the world isn't heavy. When we do that, we gaslight our own nervous system. And the word gaslighting is used very often. And I just want to just define it a little bit here. When you gaslight someone, that means you're not ⁓ acknowledging their reality as it is. You're telling them, that's not happening. We also do that to ourselves. We may call it gaslighting, denial. but we cannot lie to ourselves. So our nervous system, even though you're saying everything's fine, everything's fine, your nervous system knows it's not. Cassandra: I had an experience like that this weekend. I didn't realize until later on why I was so anxious. And it turns out my system knew something that I didn't. It knew something was off. It knew something wasn't quite right. It knew all of these things, and I didn't know what it knew until the truth was revealed to me. And I was like, that explains it. Like, that explains why I've been carrying around this weight in my chest all weekend. Like, that explains it. And it was... Daiana: Mm. Mm-hmm. Cassandra: validating but also shocking to me that my body knew something that I didn't. Daiana: Yeah, isn't that wild? Sometimes I like it. I like when somebody tells me like these are my blind spots like in therapy but then when something happens like that where you're noticing it yourself it's scary. Cassandra: Yeah, 100%. Daiana: It's scary. Cassandra: And then there's also like, you mentioned concepts earlier, there's the concept of reducing shame. So not only are we being honest with ourselves, but we're being honest about the state of the world. And by doing that, it reduces the shame that we feel about that anxiety. We're being honest with ourselves about the state of our life, about the state of our... Daiana: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cassandra: ⁓ marriage about the state of whatever is going on around us that will honestly help reduce the shame that we feel about having that anxiety. It's not anxiety if the threat is real. It's not anxiety if the experience is real. It's a logical response to this chaotic timeline. So to honestly acknowledge like, yes, these things were hard and they were difficult for me to deal with and I still do X, Y, and Z because of these things. it reduces the amount of shame that we carry with us about why we feel the way that we do. Like, why do we wash our hands a hundred times a day? Well, we learned through a pandemic that you need to wash your hands. We should have known that before. Daiana: Yeah, they're internal. Even though some people forgot already, but. Yeah, yeah. You know, I want to mention something about anxiety is that anxiety serves a purpose and we never want to get rid of it completely. We just want to reduce the intensity and the duration of it. Right? And when we are Cassandra: Again, we both have three children. Daiana: when we're going through something like this and we feel anxious and you tell yourself you're not, it makes it worse. That anxiety heightens your nervous system is going to feel it. On the other hand, if you say, well, no wonder, of course, of course I'm anxious, right? And anxious meaning that is very heightened. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Daiana: Impedes you from doing things some people it's hard for you to leave your house Right. Sometimes it's hard for us to leave our house like we were talking about dropping our kids off at school sometimes those moments are really hard and I was actually telling Cassandra in between Our episodes that I can't I have to stop myself from thinking about it and I notice it and then say I Validate it say it makes sense Cassandra: Yeah. Daiana: It makes sense, of course. And that at least doesn't change things, but what it does is it calms your nervous system. Cassandra: Beautiful. Daiana: And it'll... Cassandra: It's funny that, sorry, I'm just thinking of the different things that I feel anxiety about, the different things that come up that make me nervous or make me hesitant to do it again. And we were even talking earlier today about something so benign as showering. Like, if I'm honest with myself about it, I had a significant trauma that had to do with a shower during a time of my life that was... definitely living in like a fight-or-fly. And now at this point in my life, like, I drag my feet when it comes to that. I still shower every day. Don't worry, people. Like, I make sure that I do that for your comfort and for mine. However, like, I don't always want to. I just don't. Daiana: . Mm-hmm. you Yeah. Yeah, I thank you. actually did not know that about you for sharing that. And I know that is so necessary because I hear it in my office. I'm sure you hear it in your office that there are activities of daily living that are hard for us because of our trauma. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. But like you said earlier, just acknowledging it, like of course it makes sense that I don't want to do this because of this thing that happened. Of course that makes sense now. It helps to make it a little bit more palatable, bite-sized, ⁓ normalized, however you want to put it, where I can actually work towards the solution as opposed to living the problem. Daiana: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. ⁓ I just had a moment where I'm just like, I'm so glad that we're doing this because something like that, we don't, I haven't even seen that on social media. I haven't even seen, I've heard it as a therapist, but I haven't even heard that in social media and how powerful it is for someone to know that something like putting on your shoes is hard for you. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that they're not alone with that. Daiana: Yeah, and that does, and when we're talking about this particular part is that we are reducing shame. Why do we not share our grief with people? Because we feel shame. We feel there's something wrong with us. Something that came to mind, I'm glad I remembered, is the should. I should be over this already. Cassandra: There's a saying in a group that I visit that, don't shit all over yourself because that comes with shame. And it sounds funny because it sounds like a dirty word. But it's just don't shit all over yourself because the only thing you're going to do is perpetuate that shame. That is it. Daiana: Mm-hmm. You Yeah. So how do we go from surviving? Because we all talk about it. We're in survival mode, but we need to shift to living. How do we widen that lens? Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Well, if we only look at the trauma, then we lose our window of tolerance, right? We had talked about, like, the window of the floor or the ceiling. ⁓ I feel like that should be a song someplace. To the window, to the wall. Never mind. That shift happens when we allow for duality. Like, when we allow ourselves to admit that things are hard. while intentionally looking for those glimmers that you mentioned earlier, while we intentionally look for small moments of safety, well, small moments of joy, small moments of trust. Trust is a really big deal when it comes to dealing with these moments of shame. You asked earlier, like, why don't we share our grief? Well, because we don't trust that people are gonna validate it and be open-minded about it. Like, in a lot of situations, the trust just isn't there. Daiana: I do want you said to the window that was hilarious. ⁓ I'm trying to get that out of my head right now. I think it is important to quickly review that whole concept really quick. The window of tolerance ⁓ was developed by Dr. Dan Siegel and what it tells us is there are three, these three parts, right? Inside the window is when you feel grounded, flexible. There's bad news, but you can handle it. You're not spiraling. Cassandra: you You're welcome. Daiana: Then there is the hyper arousal, that's the ceiling, and this is the fight or flight zone. And for us as babies, that looks like chronic anxiety, panic, constantly on guard. I thought that was just a New York thing, but I guess not. Nah, playing. But you're stuck in a state of high energy and hypervigilance. ⁓ And the hypo arousal is the floor. And this is when you are in this free zone and it looks like numbness, dissociation, or feeling checked out from the world because it's simply too much to feel. And I don't want anyone to think that you're doing something wrong when you're in this state. Just don't stay there. Right? Just don't stay there. Tell a friend, tell someone that you're there so they can lend you a hand and help you get up. Right? But it's not a bad thing to sometimes just lay there. Cassandra: And then widening that window, like we had mentioned, ⁓ is looking outside the trauma. And I like the idea of agency in the micro, right? we can't control ⁓ macro, the big things, the wars, the pandemics, the shootings, the... ⁓ all of the things that we are influenced by every single day. If we spend time doom-scrolling, which is like scrolling on your phone, seeing all the things that come up on a daily basis, then we're focusing on the macro, the things that we can't control, but we can reclaim the micro. This means curating ⁓ news intakes, setting boundaries with our time and how long we allow ourselves to scroll. ⁓ watch reels, and choosing to pursue joy as a form of resistance against the weight of the world. That's a really, really powerful idea. Daiana: Like in spite of, I'm going to show you that I can still be happy even though this person did something, you know, or something is going on. our minds were not created ⁓ to have world trauma the palm of our hands. Cassandra: Mm-mm. No. Daiana: When we're talking about validating our experience, like no wonder I am having a hard time getting out of bed when I know what's the tragedies that are going on across the globe. Right? Our brains have not changed much, right? Technology is, is light years ahead of our human development. So it makes sense. Cassandra: It makes a lot of sense, and at the same point in time, focusing on the micro, focusing the things that we can control that are within our circle of control. If you picture a little hula hoop around your feet, this is one of my favorite topics to talk about, whatever's inside of that is within your circle of control. That hula hoop is not very big. Honestly, we can't control how we feel about things. but we can control how we react to these things. So choosing to set those boundaries, choosing how we spend our time, choosing what we look for as opposed to what we live with. We look for those small moments of joy. having the expectation that we're gonna be joyful and happy and skip through the tulips every single day is unrealistic. But... happiness, joy, things like that are glimpses, they're feelings, just like anything else, like anger is a feeling, sadness is a feeling, all these things are feelings. So we can shift our focus. Are we going to shift and focus on the anger, the sadness, the fear? Or in certain moments, can we shift and look for that moment of joy? Can we look for the micro? Can we look for the things that add to us rather than detract from us? Daiana: And that's how we move from only surviving to living. So we're, and I love that you said hula hoops because how 80s is that? Right? And these are glimmers for 80s babies, right? That nostalgia glimmer, whether it's playing with an old gaming system, you know, I'm sure a lot of us still have our Nintendos or having the moments that bring you back to when things were nice and light, right? If you hear a favorite song from high school or ⁓ even from college, I can't get that window to the wall out of my head. so it's like a three second moment. Cassandra: You're welcome. Daiana: I was watching the Bad Bunny concert when it was ⁓ aired ⁓ and was a part when Marc Anthony came up and there was a ⁓ strum a guitar three times ⁓ and went crazy. And that's a song from like 20 years ago. So for me is definitely putting on some classic salsa merengue when it was good, you know, bring you back. And those are Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Daiana: You know me, right? So like those but that is so real for me that that nostalgia glimmer is is true What would be ⁓ a glimmer for you? Cassandra: So there's certain books that will bring me back that I read repeatedly up. A Wrinkle in Time was one of them. ⁓ loved anything that let me escape into a different world. ⁓ ⁓ or okay, so I do, ⁓ done certain things since I was young that ⁓ have been reserved for ⁓ age that I am now, but crocheting. ⁓ Daiana: Mmm. Yes, yes. Cassandra: is almost, is incredibly therapeutic and incredibly nostalgic for me. I've been crocheting since I was seven years old. I took my crochet kit to camp with me and sat there with all the adults when I was like nine years old and crocheted all by myself while they were talking about, I don't know, taxes or whatever it is the adults talked about in the 90s. And all the other kids were running around playing. Daiana: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cassandra: flag football or whatever else that you do at camp and I sat there with my happy little self in crochet and they let me do it because it was something that was peaceful for me. Daiana: Mm-hmm. You're like a trailblazer because crocheting made a comeback and little did we know little Cassandra was, you know. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah, that is nostalgia. And then also when you were talking about just the book and going into that, ⁓ it's the analog quote unquote analog glimmer. A time before we had phones in our hands with the news. Cassandra: So, was mommy, you're welcome. I'm gonna take full credit for that. Mm-hmm. Daiana: and alerts and all of these things to go back to paper and pencil, to go back to reading a book not on a Kindle. Cassandra: ⁓ yeah, and I'm just thinking about the last time I actually read a book that wasn't on the Kindle. It wasn't that long ago. I have one on my nightstand right now. The type of books that I read now are much different than I did a long time ago, but I still enjoy just reading things that make my brain happy and disconnecting for a moment. And I'm also thinking about Daiana: Mm-hmm. Cassandra: the sensory glimmers, the things that you do that feel good in your hand. ⁓ You and I were talking about the first sip of coffee in the morning, like feeling that warm cup. I know we both have an extensive mug collection, which is hopefully something that other people can relate to as well, because otherwise we're insane. That was something we didn't know about each other until we went out to breakfast once and we both bought a mug and you're like, wait, do you? I'm like, wait, do you? Daiana: Ugh. Mm. I know we do. We're like, ⁓ Cassandra: Yeah, sometimes I have to purge them because I don't have enough space. I purge the ones that are all one color. Daiana: Yeah, but I was, I just got an idea though. What if we would exchange? Because I have some in my cupboard that I put away and I exchanged them. Like, what if we like, interchanged? Cassandra: Ooh, I like that idea. We could do a mug exchange! You know what, and as we build this community, we could have a community mug exchange. I'm so excited. I'm gonna have so many mugs. Daiana: We're gonna make exchange. Yeah, so that's sensory for me. realize, yeah, I'm addicted to coffee. So if I don't have coffee in the morning, I do get a headache. But it is a sensory thing for me. Right. And then there's the chosen glimmer. The chosen glimmer. One thing is like for millennials and I joined the bag wagon is these plans. Like I have a monstera. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. I have way too many pothos. They grow like you would not believe. Daiana: You I didn't even know the name of it, but I found out today that I do have one. I just like, ⁓ and it's true that having these little, plants in your living room ⁓ or beautiful that you're watching it grow. ⁓ And, ⁓ when I water my plant, it's still alive. And I'm like, thank you. Let me water you right now. ⁓ Cassandra: It's like you've been to my office. have all these plants that I remember to water once a week. They are troopers though. They are absolute troopers. They're like, hey, thanks. Appreciate that. Daiana: You know? Yeah... That's why I can't do the the fruits or leave ⁓ flowers or anything like that because they're more meat and it's like orchids I love them, but no way I don't I cannot I Will not make it and talk about orchids is the nature glimmer So like I'm not gonna have those flowers in my house, but I can notice them I could ⁓ actually when I one day when I went to your house I was just standing in front of your house. I'm like wow. This is so beautiful how Cassandra: Mm-mm. Daiana: how you set this up. It feels like you're walking into a little garden. Cassandra: My husband has the green thumb. ⁓ I deny having a green thumb. I can actually get things to grow when I want to. But it takes so much work to do it outdoors that I just keep them in my windowsills and things like that at home. Daiana: you they can grow from a crack on the wall, right? They can grow in hard places, difficult places. ⁓ And ⁓ that's a metaphor right there in itself, to in midst of the hard stuff. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Yep, and that's what this entire conversation has been about. Nice way to pull that back. Daiana: Yes. Yeah. And as we wrap up today's conversation, we're going to move into our favorite part of the show, and it's the living loss lessons. This is where we bridge everything we've talked about in one tangible takeaway you can use right now. Cassandra: So these lessons aren't about fixing the pain or about finding a way to carry it. Sometimes it's a tool to practice. The other times it's reflecting on the meaning you've built from a loss that you've never asked for. It is the strength that you've gained even in the midst of the hard stuff. for example, we can't stop the world from being scary, but we can, like we said, look for those little glimmer moments. So those tiny little micro moments, those little things that we talked about that tell our nervous systems that you're all right right now. For me, one of the sensory glimmers that we talked about that sort of links back into the nostalgic glimmer is when... This is my favorite. I exposed my children to the music that's popular when I was young because I can only take so much of the music that's popular for them right now. So then I'll put on something that, again, we referenced to the windows of the wall earlier for them and Daiana: ⁓ Mm-hmm. ⁓ Yeah. I hope it's not the explicit one. Cassandra: Enjoy it. It's not the explicit one, all right? It's the clean version, which is much less fun. However, never kids bop. Never. Bless you if you love kids bop. I'm not one. I do not. However, watching their reaction, but also their disdain, ⁓ fills me with some weird kind of joy, which may or may not be. Daiana: Okay. Yes. As long as it's not the kids bop. I don't, I don't. So much joy. Cassandra: say a lot about who I am, but it's just, it's so entertaining and it just makes me laugh so hard. like, sensory moments like that where I get to hear something I enjoy but also envision or see something that entertains me. ⁓ this is insane. I'm gonna have a lot to unpack in therapy today, I'm not gonna lie. Daiana: Yeah, absolutely. You Well, that's great. that's what we're here for. ⁓ So living loss lesson ⁓ is notice these glimmers. ⁓ And I how we just, we were talking and I felt like this conversation and the episode before this was, is very healing and therapeutic. And it gives, it gave us a space to feel feelings that we have not acknowledged in a while. I highly encourage you to look at these glimmers, whether it's the nostalgia, analog, sensory, chosen, nature, and share it with someone. Because I am going to hold you to it. We're going to do the mug exchange. Make sure you don't give me any ones that they're going to be mad at me if I take it. But for us to exchange. Cassandra: Mm-mm. No, no, no, you're... I'll find you the right bug, don't worry. Daiana: Yeah, so find that glimmer and share it with someone. Thank you so much for being a part of our circle today. Remember by sharing this episode, you're helping us reach someone else who is carrying their loss in silence. Let's keep growing this community together. Subscribe, share, and know that your story matters. Cassandra: And just as a little side note, this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. While we are mental health counselors, we are not your mental health counselors. So this does not replace professional mental health care in any way, shape or form. If you do feel like you'd like to speak with someone, please reach out to a professional near you. Daiana: Thank you, Cassandra. See you guys next time. Cassandra: Thank you, Daiana. Bye! Daiana: Thank